Fragments of World's Oldest Q'uran Found

[DonDadda59]

With the Islam obsession around these parts lately, sort of odd that no one has mentioned this. Pretty monumental. Has any original religious writing been found before that was so close to the source material/time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vja6qKYHDE

Article (http://www.news8000.com/news/tests-reveal-quran-manuscript-is-among-oldest/34289888)

[navy]

Lots of bullshit written im sure.

[9erempiree]

With the Islam obsession around these parts lately, sort of odd that no one has mentioned this. Pretty monumental. Has any original religious writing been found before that was so close to the source material/time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vja6qKYHDE

Article (http://www.news8000.com/news/tests-reveal-quran-manuscript-is-among-oldest/34289888)


Yes, the Pyramid text of Ancient Egypt.

[DonDadda59]

Lots of bullshit written im sure.

Could be, but that's not really the important part IMO. If the dating is correct that means this document was hand-written within 20 years of Muhammad's death and his supposed revelation. The animal whose hide/bone it was written on was alive when Muhammad was. From a purely Historical perspective, that's cool as hell.

For comparison sake, the oldest known New Testament writings date to only 200 AD, nothing before that.


Yes, the Pyramid text of Ancient Egypt.

Details please.

[9erempiree]

Also, known as Ancient Egyption Religion.....2400-2300 BC


Ancient Egyptian religion was a complex system of polytheistic beliefs and rituals which were an integral part of ancient Egyptian society. It centered on the Egyptians' interaction with many deities who were believed to be present in, and in control of, the forces and elements of nature.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Ancient_Egyptian_medical_instruments.jpg
http://bestbuycheapenglishessay.com/images/wutamaxe.jpg
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/PyramidTextsTetiI.jpg

[BurningHammer]

Lots of bullshit written im sure.
Probably not as much as it is today.

[KingBeasley08]

Very cool :applause:

[navy]

Hmmm....I thought the Quran was fairly consistent in bullshit not massively edited like the bible. If not, then yeah I wanna see the differences.

[Patrick Chewing]

Somewhere, someone in 'Merica needs something to start his BBQ fire with.


No better way than to honor such a monumental find.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

So the Surat engraved in the camelbones is Kahf and Taha and Maryam correct?



Revelated Sixty-Ninth and Forty-Forth and Forty-Fifth?

So the Prophet (Pbuh) meditated in the cave, and had received revelations beginning from 609-632.
We can "guesstimate" that 44,45,69/114 are 33%, 34%, 63%.. out of the 23 year period to reveal a 616, 617, 625ish (on average). Later, rearranged. But religious historians should definitely be hyperaware at these years.

Taha CliffsTafsir http://muslimmatters.org/2012/12/10/life-lessons-tafseer-surah-taha/
[QUOTE]1- Family comes first

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) seeks to ensure his family's safety and comfort by asking them to wait for him in the cold darkness of the night while he departs to investigate the source of fire at a distance from them. Never compromise your family and lead them into the unknown.

2- Present Danger is better than Hidden Danger

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) knows it is dangerous to leave his family in the dark expanse of the desert that they lost their way in. Yet, that is less a danger than walking into a campfire of what could possibly be a group of brigands who would harm him and his family. The known danger is clear and evident, but at least it is predictable.

3- Danger to one is better than exposing many

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) instinctively decides that the danger faced by him, alone, is worth the risk of warmth and guidance to safety. Judgment is imperative when a preponderance of danger exists. The less exposure, whether financially, psychologically, spiritually and physically, the better.

4- One person takes the Final Decision

In trying circumstances, defined, clear and unambiguous directions can be the difference between life and death, health and sickness, safety and tragedy. In all decisions, especially within the household, a unified singular voice needs to provide leadership and direction.

5- Leaders consult & explain their decision making process

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) explains, in detail, WHY he has made the decision to investigate the fire and to leave his family behind. It is reasoned, rationale and explicit. Often, complaints arise about a decision being made without consultation and explanation. That contradicts the established Prophetic model. Decisions are not demands and the authority to make them is not inherent to one party over another except by virtue of trust. Trust is lost not by poor decisions but by poor consultation.

6- Speak to all whom your decision impacts

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) spoke to Ahlihi (all his family/people), not just his wife. Taking counsel with your sons and daughters in important decisions is a way of ensuring reciprocation when they reach an age of decision making ability for themselves. If you ignore their voices, then expect them not to share it with you.

7- Don't promise what is not assured

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) says,

[9erempiree]

Somewhere, someone in 'Merica needs something to start his BBQ fire with.


No better way than to honor such a monumental find.

and cook this....yummy...always enjoyed a roasted one.
http://www.sbrcatering.com/wp-content/uploads/proast1.jpg

[Patrick Chewing]

Oh god I just got a boner! Yummy!!!

[RidonKs]

1- Family comes first

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) seeks to ensure his family's safety and comfort by asking them to wait for him in the cold darkness of the night while he departs to investigate the source of fire at a distance from them. Never compromise your family and lead them into the unknown.

2- Present Danger is better than Hidden Danger

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) knows it is dangerous to leave his family in the dark expanse of the desert that they lost their way in. Yet, that is less a danger than walking into a campfire of what could possibly be a group of brigands who would harm him and his family. The known danger is clear and evident, but at least it is predictable.
how bout not abandoning your family to explore the cold darkness of the night, that's retarded. they can walk right? so lead them with you as a group to somewhere safer.


3- Danger to one is better than exposing many

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) instinctively decides that the danger faced by him, alone, is worth the risk of warmth and guidance to safety. Judgment is imperative when a preponderance of danger exists. The less exposure, whether financially, psychologically, spiritually and physically, the better.

4- One person takes the Final Decision

In trying circumstances, defined, clear and unambiguous directions can be the difference between life and death, health and sickness, safety and tragedy. In all decisions, especially within the household, a unified singular voice needs to provide leadership and direction.
ah but which person? this is chauvinistic drivel for the most part.

"follow the leader"
"oh who's the leader"
"i'm the leader" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA)


5- Leaders consult & explain their decision making process

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) explains, in detail, WHY he has made the decision to investigate the fire and to leave his family behind. It is reasoned, rationale and explicit. Often, complaints arise about a decision being made without consultation and explanation. That contradicts the established Prophetic model. Decisions are not demands and the authority to make them is not inherent to one party over another except by virtue of trust. Trust is lost not by poor decisions but by poor consultation.

6- Speak to all whom your decision impacts

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) spoke to Ahlihi (all his family/people), not just his wife. Taking counsel with your sons and daughters in important decisions is a way of ensuring reciprocation when they reach an age of decision making ability for themselves. If you ignore their voices, then expect them not to share it with you.
what if people conflict over which one should be the most trustworthy? call it a conflict of leadership. do you think if each of them reasonably, rationally, and explicitly explained to the other why their decision was better, they would come to terms and continue as a unit. this is a guide to civil war.

this guy isn't talking about consultation, he's talking about parental guidance. which is well and nice but fails to consider that women have a different perspective to offer and kids are often a lot smarter than adults think. consulting them would require allowing them some authority, especially if that might make the entire decision making process more wise.

the last section is simple self serving. i better be nice to them now so they'll be nice to me later. i'll be old weak and cripples and won't be able to tell them what to do based on no authority but by my own designation.

[QUOTE]7- Don't promise what is not assured

Mūsa 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him) says,

[Raymone]

Fragments because its followers blew it to pieces with infighting?

[9erempiree]

Fragments because its followers blew it to pieces with infighting?

I see what you did there.

[NumberSix]

Fragments because its followers blew it to pieces with infighting?
As much as you're joking, according to Islamic history, this actually kinda true. Research the caliph Uthman and and the burning of the Koran writings.

[RidonKs]

No idea what J$ is talking about. Very confused.
that's because he knows the terminology and can express it frankly and without confusion. you do not know the terminology and need each individual phrase explained in laymen. i am the same way. which is why those writeups he quoted, no matter how frustrating, are helpful to understand the body of religion/culture/history/so on and so forth

[RidonKs]

As much as you're joking, according to Islamic history, this actually kinda true. Research the caliph Uthman and and the burning of the Koran writings.
according to a single event in a 1000+ year history, numbersix isn't a jackass

[9erempiree]

The right thing to do is return it to where they found it and let a caretaker watch over it. It would be more symbolic if it returned.

[RidonKs]

The right thing to do is return it to where they found it and let a caretaker watch over it. It would be more symbolic if it returned.
yeah let's pull the night watchman out of the local museum and let him sit beside it while nobody looks at it. great idea. :facepalm

[9erempiree]

Also, why are they putting their grubby hands on it. In America, we would be wearing gloves to preserve it. They flipping through the page like its a dentist office's magazine.:facepalm

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/europe/uk-quran-birmingham-manuscript/

[9erempiree]

yeah let's pull the night watchman out of the local museum and let him sit beside it while nobody looks at it. great idea. :facepalm
:facepalm

You really don't know shit.

[RidonKs]

:facepalm

You really don't know shit.
oh sorry, symbolism. yeah that matters a lot more than history, you're right.

[9erempiree]

So should I believe an Englishman or believe an Arab? I'm just very skeptical when it comes to anything with history. I'm not doubting its old but claiming it is the oldest?


Saud al-Sarhan, the director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, said he doubted that the manuscript found in Birmingham was as old as the researchers claimed, noting that its Arabic script included dots and separated chapters — features that were introduced later. He also said that dating the skin on which the text was written did not prove when it was written. Manuscript skins were sometimes washed clean and reused later, he said.

[NumberSix]

So should I believe an Englishman or believe an Arab? I'm just very skeptical when it comes to anything with history. I'm not doubting its old but claiming it is the oldest?
I'm not gonna get into all the details, but anyone who is familiar with the history knows fully well that these are not as old as is being claimed. And the Arab guy is exactly right. The age of the vellum doesn't matter. The actual ink would need to be dated. The script it is written is also not consistent. Compared to the Yemen Koran, you can easily see this pages in Britain are not legit.

[DonDadda59]

One of the gospels was written within 30-50 years of jesus' death and the document it was based on (which no longer exists) obviously was made before that.

No, the earliest that one of the Gospels could've potentially been written was 70 A.D. after the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. But the oldest found only date back to 125-200 A.D.

And what you're referencing is a hypothetical Q document which some scholars argue served as source material for whoever composed the pseudographical Gospels. There is no proof that any such document ever existed. It's just as likely that whoever wrote the Gospel of Mark (the universally accepted earliest of the canon Gospels) originated the sayings/stories from oral tradition that the writers of Luke and Matthew then later borrowed.

[Patrick Chewing]

The right thing to do is return it to where they found it and let a caretaker watch over it. It would be more symbolic if it returned.


You're too kind. Many men, including myself, would not have the decency. God Bless you.