Is the league conspiring to stack the Cavs' roster (again)?

[3ball]

Regarding the Cavs recent trade to Blazers:


By trading two players (Mike Miller, Brendan Haywood) into the Trail Blazers' cap space, Cleveland creates two separate trade exceptions that cannot be combined -- one for $10.5 million, another for $2.85 million. They will have one year to use each exception. While the Cavs are already facing a giant luxury tax bill, the trade exceptions give Cleveland a way to add another high-priced player some team might be looking to ditch.


Why would the Blazers take on the Cavs salary and then waive the players.. Just for 2nd rounders?... BS... Don't the Blazers still have to pay Miller and Haywood - sounds like another conspiracy, similar to how the Cavs got JR Smith, Shumpert, and frieking Mosgov all at once in a surprise trade last year... So now Dan Gilbert is some kind of genius now, after sucking before?

In reality, the Cavs wouldn't have been shit last year until they got Mosgov and company... No way they get out of the East without that trade.. With just Lebron, Love and Kyrie - the Cavs sucked.... until they added Mosgov and company.

Of course, before the Mosgov trade, there was the Love trade - another conspiracy - we all know Lebron had assurances that Love would be a Cav.

[JtotheIzzo]

please punch yourself in the nuts.

[Cocaine80s]

:basketball

[bdreason]

Blazers got two 2nd round picks for almost nothing. Haywood is non-guaranteed and will be waived. Miller will negotiate a buyout for probably ~$1.5m since he also received a trade-kicker bonus.


Every team in the league would pay $1.5m for two 2nd round picks. Well maybe not the T-Wolves. :oldlol:

[FKAri]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

[Lebron23]

LeBron living rent free inside your head.

[poido123]

Doesn't look good if one of the league'a golden boy continues to lose?


He will battling for second place....again

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif



35/5/5 Games
Jordan: 34
James: 17

40/5/5 Games
Jordan: 17
James: 8

45/5/5 Games
Jordan: 10
James: 5

50/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

55/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

60/5/5 Games
Jordan: 1
James: 0

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif.

[Lebron23]

Doesn't look good if one of the league'a golden boy continues to lose?


He will battling for second place....again


They are going to win the championship next year.

[bigkingsfan]

35/5/5 Games
Jordan: 34
James: 17

40/5/5 Games
Jordan: 17
James: 8

45/5/5 Games
Jordan: 10
James: 5

50/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

55/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

60/5/5 Games
Jordan: 1
James: 0


Triple doubles, LBJ in a landslide.

[3ball]

They are going to win the championship next year.


Lebron will never win another championship.

Lebron has peaked with this team, just like he did in 2007 with the Cavs.. You'll see..

You should know by now that Lebron's teams don't improve under his tenure.

Prepare for 2009/2010 levels of disappointment and chokage from Lebron in 2016 season.

I can't wait.
.

[3ball]

Triple doubles, LBJ in a landslide.


MJ across the board, in a landslide:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT



Career Playoff Averages:

Jordan: 33.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 25.1 FGA, 48.7 FG%, 28.6 PER, 0.255 WS/48
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Career Finals Averages:

Jordan: 33.6 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.65 BPG, 48.1% FG, 36.8% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT


Source: basketball-reference.com



4th Quarter Scoring:


MJ 1997 Playoffs: 9.6
MJ 1998 Playoffs (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4): 9.0

MJ 1993 Finals: 10.7
MJ 1997 Finals: 10.4
MJ 1998 Finals: 10.3

FYI: MJ 1988 Regular Season (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380784): 12.1


Lebron 2013 Playoffs: 7.4
Lebron 2014 Playoffs: 5.8
Lebron 2015 Playoffs: 8.1

Lebron 2011 Finals: 2.2
Lebron 2014 Finals: 3.6
Lebron 2015 Finals: 10.1**


** 30% FG in 4th quarter, including zero points in 4th quarter of critical Game 4, with opportunity to take 3-1 series lead (only 20 points total in game)

[HeatFanSince88]

They'll never win another championship again..

Lebron has peaked with this team, just like he did in 2007 with the Cavs.. You'll see..

You should know by now that Lebron's teams don't improve under his tenure.

Prepare for 2009/2010 levels of disappointment and chokage from Lebron in 2016 season.

I can't wait.

How about in Miami where they shit the bed in Year 1, and won consecutive championships afterwards?

The Cavs are a lock to make the Finals, just by having that Finals spot on lockdown gives them a substantial chance at winning it all. More so than any other team since all the other contenders have to duke it out in the West.

I don't like LeBron and the Cavs either, but you just come off as an insecure bitch.

[poido123]

They are going to win the championship next year.


The spurs will curb stomp that cavs team.

I had the cavs as a shoe in this year UNTIL west and Aldridge landed there. They have further depth with Anderson and I think that Simmons guy is a player.


Spurs will be too good again

[Lebron23]

The spurs will curb stomp that cavs team.

I had the cavs as a shoe in this year UNTIL west and Aldridge landed there. They have further depth with Anderson and I think that Simmons guy is a player.


Spurs will be too good again


Cavaliers also added Mo Williams, and Richard Jefferson. If Duncan regressed next year. I don't see them advancing in the NBA Finals. Outside of Kawhi and Aldridge. Parker and Manu needs to contribute.

[3ball]

I'll punch you in the face when LeBron wins his 3rd NBA title next year.
it's funny, because it's like - before the Cavs and Lebron choke/underachieve again, will they get our hopes up by winning 66 and 62 games like they did in 2009 and 2010?

I still don't understand how a team wins so many games in the regular season and gets the number 1 seed, but then gets destroyed in the playoffs -

it's like, you won in the regular season, why not in the playoffs?

[Lebron23]

it's funny, because it's like - before the Cavs and Lebron choke/underachieve again, will they get our hopes up by winning 66 and 62 games like they did in 2009 and 2010?

I still don't understand how a team wins so many games in the regular season and gets the number 1 seed, but then gets destroyed in the playoffs -

it's like, you won in the regular season, why not in the playoffs?


Playoffs are a different ball game. Lebron played well in the 2009 and 2010 NBA Playoffs. His 2nd scoring option Mo Williams disappeared.

[Heavincent]

Lebron23 vs 3ball?

ahem....

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w659/Sinicide/cf1.gif

[poido123]

Cavaliers also added Mo Williams, and Richard Jefferson. If Duncan regressed next year. I don't see them advancing in the NBA Finals. Outside of Kawhi and Aldridge. Parker and Manu needs to contribute.


Mo Williams and Richard Jefferson? Does that somehow compare to west and Aldridge? Not even close.


You will see. Spurs to make lebron their personal jizz rag as Silk would say :oldlol:

[FKAri]

(long azz post with bolded font and colors)

tldr

































































































http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

[3ball]

Mo Williams and Richard Jefferson? Does that somehow compare to west and Aldridge? Not even close.


You will see. Spurs to make lebron their personal jizz rag as Silk would say :oldlol:
is that all they added.. i thought they added joe johnson too (although he's just a floor-spreader at this point too)

[Lebron23]

Mo Williams and Richard Jefferson? Does that somehow compare to west and Aldridge? Not even close.


You will see. Spurs to make lebron their personal jizz rag as Silk would say :oldlol:


Let's see in the playoffs.

[BigTicket]

Mo Williams and Richard Jefferson? Does that somehow compare to west and Aldridge? Not even close.


You will see. Spurs to make lebron their personal jizz rag as Silk would say :oldlol:

Aren't you supposed to be a Bulls fan ?

By saying the Spurs will beat the Cavs, you are also saying the Cavs will make the finals, meaning they will beat your Bulls ?

[3ball]

Playoffs are a different ball game. Lebron played well in the 2009 and 2010 NBA Playoffs. His 2nd scoring option Mo Williams disappeared.
Against Orlando in 2009, Boston in 2010, and virtually all Lebron's Finals (except 2012) - in all these series, Lebron's opponent had the better strategy and played the better brand of basketball.

It was truly remarkable to watch dumb Dwight and Orlando be the smarter team than Lebron's team..

But that was just the beginning of a common trend.. Lebron's teams aren't smart teams, and don't play a good brand of basketball, so his supporting cast underperforms and he loses at the highest levels.

[Cocaine80s]

Aren't you supposed to be a Bulls fan ?

By saying the Spurs will beat the Cavs, you are also saying the Cavs will make the finals, meaning they will beat your Bulls ?
Lol he gave up on his bulls, shouldve seen his thread a few weeks after the Bulls lost :lol

[poido123]

Aren't you supposed to be a Bulls fan ?

By saying the Spurs will beat the Cavs, you are also saying the Cavs will make the finals, meaning they will beat your Bulls ?


I suppose the fans of the 76ers should avoid logic by proclaiming a title contender like spurs a likely chance of winning instead of their own team?

Use your head :oldlol:

I love the bulls, always will. But they are not in position to win the title this year barring big trades. Doesn't mean I love them any less or jump ship like our mate Cocaine80s who jumps to wherever lebron goes.

[dunksby]

3ball is just another everyday LeBron hater, as credible as Kenneth.

[LAZERUSS]

Lebron is drafted by a 17-65 team. Immediately DOUBLES their wins in his first season. In his third season they go 50-32. In his 4th season, he took a team with Larry Hughes as his second best player to the Finals, the first ever for the franchise.

By age 24 he took a roster with Mo Williams as his second best player to a 66-16 record, and then at 25, to a 61-21 record.

Lebron leaves the Cavs to join the 47-35 Heat, who were first round cannon-fodder in '09-10. The Cavs fall to 19-63, while Lebron immediately takes the Heat to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. Overall, to FOUR Finals in FOUR seasons, with TWO rings, and a team record season of 66-16.

Lebron leaves the Heat to join the 33-49 Cavs. The Heat plummet to a 37-45 record, while Lebron leads the Cavs to a 53-29 record, and a trip to the Finals, where he carries a team with his second best player is JR Smith and his 12-4-1 .326 series, to TWO wins over a 67-15 Warrior team, and two more close losses.

THAT is the "Lebron Effect" my friend.

[LAZERUSS]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!

[JohnMax]

Start of the season: "Cavs/Heat are stacked, got the next 5 titles on lock. RIP NBA".

End of the season after another Lechoke loss: "Lebron needs more help, his teammates are a bunch of d-leaguers, no one could win with that roster".

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!
:crazysam:
Here lies 3ball.

[swagga]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/kenrapoza/files/2012/01/RIP1.jpg

[StephHamann]

Start of the season: "Cavs/Heat are stacked, got the next 5 titles on lock. RIP NBA".

End of the season after another Lechoke loss: "Lebron needs more help, his teammates are a bunch of d-leaguers, no one could win with that roster".

Spot on

[ImKobe]

Lazeruss leaving out the fact that the East was much stronger in the 80s/90s than in the 2000s/2010s

Bran missed the Playoffs his rookie year and his 2nd year.

And Larry Hughes and Mo Williams were not the two best players, Big Z was for all those years except 2010, when he had Shaq, J.J Hickson and even got 25 games from Jamison during the regular season and gave them 15/7 in the POS...Lebron had TWO bigs averaging 15+ ppg 8+ rpg with a higher PER and WS/48 than him and couldn't win half of their games the last season before handchecking was banned...


Reason why those Cavs teams were successful despite Bran having another big time player next to him was because they had a bunch of decent defensive players, 3pt shooters and rebounders

the 2010 team alone had Shaq, Varejao, Hickson, Jamison...Jamario Moon shot 50% from 3 in the POs and had a 75%TS, Anthony Parker shot 46% from 3

Cavs didn't have big names but they had many decent starters/role players, the teams were built to match Lebron's skillset. He is a ball dominant player who needs the ball in his hands for the most part.

Anyways, yes Jordan had more help, but he faced much higher level of competition in his conference and arguably in the Finals, it's not like his teams won titles in a landslide. There were multiple Game 7s on the road to the Finals and let's not forget Game 6 '98 Finals with Pippen going down with injury and them having to play Game 7 on the road undermanned if they lose the game...

Jordan is greater, period.

[FKAri]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!


Damn! I've heard enough!


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

[poido123]

Lazeruss leaving out the fact that the East was much stronger in the 80s/90s than in the 2000s/2010s

Bran missed the Playoffs his rookie year and his 2nd year.

And Larry Hughes and Mo Williams were not the two best players, Big Z was for all those years except 2010, when he had Shaq, J.J Hickson and even got 25 games from Jamison during the regular season and gave them 15/7 in the POS...Lebron had TWO bigs averaging 15+ ppg 8+ rpg with a higher PER and WS/48 than him and couldn't win half of their games the last season before handchecking was banned...


Reason why those Cavs teams were successful despite Bran having another big time player next to him was because they had a bunch of decent defensive players, 3pt shooters and rebounders

the 2010 team alone had Shaq, Varejao, Hickson, Jamison...Jamario Moon shot 50% from 3 in the POs and had a 75%TS, Anthony Parker shot 46% from 3

Cavs didn't have big names but they had many decent starters/role players, the teams were built to match Lebron's skillset. He is a ball dominant player who needs the ball in his hands for the most part.

Anyways, yes Jordan had more help, but he faced much higher level of competition in his conference and arguably in the Finals, it's not like his teams won titles in a landslide. There were multiple Game 7s on the road to the Finals and let's not forget Game 6 '98 Finals with Pippen going down with injury and them having to play Game 7 on the road undermanned if they lose the game...

Jordan is greater, period.


Bringing facts to ISH can cause brain damage to guys who hate on Jordan for having good teams.


It's a shame most of these guys have no clue how much tougher the competition was in the 80s/90s. It would easily draw any help advantage Jordan might of had.


What Lazerus posted is what you call a cleverly misleading account of what really happened during Jordan's era.

[L.A. Jazz]

They have to. Otherwise no-one would watch the East.
Now with the stacked Cavs you know they have a Chance against the West-Winner because they come in rested and have some talent.

It will not happen, but with everyone healthy the Cavs could sweep the East while playing Lebron only 30 minutes.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss leaving out the fact that the East was much stronger in the 80s/90s than in the 2000s/2010s

Bran missed the Playoffs his rookie year and his 2nd year.

And Larry Hughes and Mo Williams were not the two best players, Big Z was for all those years except 2010, when he had Shaq, J.J Hickson and even got 25 games from Jamison during the regular season and gave them 15/7 in the POS...Lebron had TWO bigs averaging 15+ ppg 8+ rpg with a higher PER and WS/48 than him and couldn't win half of their games the last season before handchecking was banned...


Reason why those Cavs teams were successful despite Bran having another big time player next to him was because they had a bunch of decent defensive players, 3pt shooters and rebounders

the 2010 team alone had Shaq, Varejao, Hickson, Jamison...Jamario Moon shot 50% from 3 in the POs and had a 75%TS, Anthony Parker shot 46% from 3

Cavs didn't have big names but they had many decent starters/role players, the teams were built to match Lebron's skillset. He is a ball dominant player who needs the ball in his hands for the most part.

Anyways, yes Jordan had more help, but he faced much higher level of competition in his conference and arguably in the Finals, it's not like his teams won titles in a landslide. There were multiple Game 7s on the road to the Finals and let's not forget Game 6 '98 Finals with Pippen going down with injury and them having to play Game 7 on the road undermanned if they lose the game...

Jordan is greater, period.

I don't think any rational poster here would argue that.

BUT, let's not act like Lebron has been some second rate player, either. He is arguably already in the Top-10 right now, and barring injury, will climb higher.

Why 3ball constantly puts up daily topics ripping Lebron is beyond me. Maybe he feels threatened that perhaps Lebron will someday surpass MJ.

[aj1987]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!
1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow

PPG drop off from RS to the PO's

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

[RRR3]

Wilt was still a GOAT tier defender and rebounder even when he wasn't scoring doe.

[LAZERUSS]

Bringing facts to ISH can cause brain damage to guys who hate on Jordan for having good teams.


It's a shame most of these guys have no clue how much tougher the competition was in the 80s/90s. It would easily draw any help advantage Jordan might of had.


What Lazerus posted is what you call a cleverly misleading account of what really happened during Jordan's era.

I don't "hate" on Jordan. And yes, my posts were somewhat misleading...albeit, no more than 3ball's.

Basically he claims that MJ won his six rings with a bunch of scrubs, including Pippen, whom he feels is not worthy of a Top-100 ranking all-time.

Interesting, though, that without MJ, the Bulls could hang a 55-27 season, which was also misleading, considering that Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games that year.

And then, with that same roster that won 55+ games, sans the "11-8" Grant, but now with Harper, his MJ couldn't do any better in the post-season the very next season.

So, the Bulls then added Rodman to a team that won 55+ games withOUT Jordan. Think about that...they replaced Grant with Rodman, added a 20 ppg scorer in Harper, and then added MJ...to a 55+ win team. A team so overwhelming, that they could win three straight Finals with MJ shooting .455, .427, and even .415.

[aj1987]

Wilt was still a GOAT tier defender and rebounder even when he wasn't scoring doe.
MJ was a GOAT tier perimeter defender as well and he almost never not scored.

Also, it's well known that Wilt stopped playing defense whenever he was in could trouble. Just so he could be the player who never fouled out. His defense is overrated AF.

[RRR3]

MJ was a GOAT tier perimeter defender as well and he almost never not scored.

Also, it's well known that Wilt stopped playing defense whenever he was in could trouble. Just so he could be the player who never fouled out. His defense is overrated AF.
Don't let your annoyance with Lazeruss sour your view on Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow

PPG drop off from RS to the PO's

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

We saw MJ's considerable scoring and efficiency decline when he faced the Bad Boys four straight post-seasons. Of course, Jordan had more rounds to run up his stats in his other series. Meanwhile, a prime Chamberlain faced the HOF-stacked Celtics, with the greatest defensive player in NBA history, EIGHT times, and all but one in either the first or second round.

If you want a comprehensive rebuttal to EVERY point above...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617&page=17

It's all there.

[Uncle Drew]

MJ across the board, in a landslide:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT



Career Playoff Averages:

Jordan: 33.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 25.1 FGA, 48.7 FG%, 28.6 PER, 0.255 WS/48
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Career Finals Averages:

Jordan: 33.6 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.65 BPG, 48.1% FG, 36.8% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT


Source: basketball-reference.com



4th Quarter Scoring:


MJ 1997 Playoffs: 9.6
MJ 1998 Playoffs (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4): 9.0

MJ 1993 Finals: 10.7
MJ 1997 Finals: 10.4
MJ 1998 Finals: 10.3

FYI: MJ 1988 Regular Season (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380784): 12.1


Lebron 2013 Playoffs: 7.4
Lebron 2014 Playoffs: 5.8
Lebron 2015 Playoffs: 8.1

Lebron 2011 Finals: 2.2
Lebron 2014 Finals: 3.6
Lebron 2015 Finals: 10.1**


** 30% FG in 4th quarter, including zero points in 4th quarter of critical Game 4, with opportunity to take 3-1 series lead (only 20 points total in game)
Amazing how you typed all this in 3 minutes. :applause:

This guy actually holds Word files on his computer for his arguments on an internet forum. :oldlol:

[poido123]

I don't "hate" on Jordan. And yes, my posts were somewhat misleading...albeit, no more than 3ball's.

Basically he claims that MJ won his six rings with a bunch of scrubs, including Pippen, whom he feels is not worthy of a Top-100 ranking all-time.

Interesting, though, that without MJ, the Bulls could hang a 55-27 season, which was also misleading, considering that Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games that year.

And then, with that same roster that won 55+ games, sans the "11-8" Grant, but now with Harper, his MJ couldn't do any better in the post-season the very next season.

So, the Bulls then added Rodman to a team that won 55+ games withOUT Jordan. Think about that...they replaced Grant with Rodman, added a 20 ppg scorer in Harper, and then added MJ...to a 55+ win team. A team so overwhelming, that they could win three straight Finals with MJ shooting .455, .427, and even .415.



It's somewhere in between.

Many MJ fans will over credit Jordan for only having one true star alongside him in pippen, but others will under credit Jordan for having a talented team around him despite enduring the deepest talent pool/hall of famers/great teams and most physical teams during the 80s/90s.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron will never win another championship.

Lebron has peaked with this team, just like he did in 2007 with the Cavs.. You'll see..

You should know by now that Lebron's teams don't improve under his tenure.

Prepare for 2009/2010 levels of disappointment and chokage from Lebron in 2016 season.

I can't wait.
.
Anyone else gonna point out how 3ball just said Lebron has peaked with this team?

:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt was still a GOAT tier defender and rebounder even when he wasn't scoring doe.

He was also a GOAT tier SCORER in his prime, as well. In his first seven NBA seasons...covering 67 post-season games, 35 of which came against Russell and his swarming Celtics (and another six against Thurmond)...

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and a .515 eFG% in post-season NBA's that shot about .425 in that same span. As well as a conservative estimate of 8+ bpg.

In those seven post-seasons...

FIVE series against RUSSELL of 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, .509 FG%: 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%; 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG%; 30.5 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .500 FG%; and 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 FG%.

In that span...entire post-seasons of 21.7 ppg, 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.

Included were post-season series of 30.1 ppg, 31.5 ppg, 33.6 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg.

In his first 52 playoff games, 30 of which were against Russell... 11 games of 40+ points, with FOUR of 50+, including the ONLY THREE 50+ point games by a GOAT in must-win playoff games in NBA history.

He also had must-win games of 46 and even a 45 point must-win game in a Finals.

GOAT TIER SCORER.

[Derka]

Amazing how you typed all this in 3 minutes. :applause:

This guy actually holds Word files on his computer for his arguments on an internet forum. :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: Outstanding catch, sir.

[aj1987]

We saw MJ's considerable scoring and efficiency decline when he faced the Bad Boys four straight post-seasons. Of course, Jordan had more rounds to run up his stats in his other series. Meanwhile, a prime Chamberlain faced the HOF-stacked Celtics, with the greatest defensive player in NBA history, EIGHT times, and all but one in either the first or second round.

If you want a comprehensive rebuttal to EVERY point above...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617&page=17

It's all there.
You should probably do one for their scoring from RS to the Finals.

What did Jordan average against the '86 Celtics, which is considered to be one of the GOAT teams? The next year as well.

You pointed out that Oakley scored 20/15 in the '87 PO's, right? Care to point out his shooting percentages?

'88 against the Pistons:

MJ - 49%
Bulls as a team - 44%

'89:

MJ - 46%
Bulls - 44%

'90:

MJ - 47%
Bulls - 40%

These were some real defenses, BTW. It wasn't anything like the bush league of the '60's and '70's.

Bulls with MJ - 6 Rings in 13 seasons. Went from a 3peat to getting eliminated in the 2nd round.

Philly with Wilt - 1 ring in 8 years.
LAL with Wilt (and a ton of HOF players including a top 20 and a top 12 player) - 1 ring in 5 years.


He was also a GOAT tier SCORER in his prime, as well.

GOAT TIER SCORER.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

GOAT tier choker.

PPG drop off from RS to the PO's

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~20 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone else gonna point out how 3ball just said Lebron has peaked with this team?

:roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

His "peak" Cavs team fielded a Finals roster with the "Three Stooges" as his primary teammates (Smith with his .326 FG%; Deli with his .283 FG%, and Shumpert with his .258 FG%.)

And yet, Lebron somehow carried THAT roster to TWO wins, and two more close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that was essentially the best offensive and defensive team in the league.

Just what would Lebron have done with a healthy Kyrie, Love, and Varejao?

[sdot_thadon]

Lazeruss leaving out the fact that the East was much stronger in the 80s/90s than in the 2000s/2010s

Bran missed the Playoffs his rookie year and his 2nd year.
This is what the problem is you left out something as well,

84-85 bulls: 38-44 (7th seed, cavs 8th @ 36-46, bullets 6th @ 40-42, nets @ 5th 42-40)
85-86 bulls: 30-52 (8th seed, nets 7th @ 43-39, bullets @ 6th 39-43)
86-87 bulls: 40-42 (8th seed, pacers 7th @ 41-41, bullets 6th @ 42-40)

All made the post season.

03-04 cavs: 35-47
04-05 cavs: 42-40

Both years missed the Playoffs by basically one game.

"Bran wouldn't make the playoffs in Jordan's era"
:biggums:

[Nash]

yes the league, every owner and every team wants lebron to win.

you are absolutely right 3ball

[stalkerforlife]

Why does the "greatest player in the world" need to have the best roster in the NBA in the weakest conference in NBA history every single year?

Hint - He's not nearly as good as the hype machine.

[sdot_thadon]

Why does the "greatest player in the world" need to have the best roster in the NBA in the weakest conference in NBA history every single year?

Hint - He's not nearly as good as the hype machine.
Hey, hey, hey. take it easy on Mj, it's not his fault the league decided to add all those expansion teams during his tenure.

[poido123]

Hey, hey, hey. take it easy on Mj, it's not his fault the league decided to add all those expansion teams during his tenure.


It's also amazing how he dominated an era filled with the deepest talent pool/teams/HOFs of any era the league has seen...



Next.

[LAZERUSS]

You should probably do one for their scoring from RS to the Finals.

What did Jordan average against the '86 Celtics, which is considered to be one of the GOAT teams? The next year as well.

You pointed out that Oakley scored 20/15 in the '87 PO's, right? Care to point out his shooting percentages?

'88 against the Pistons:

MJ - 49%
Bulls as a team - 44%

'89:

MJ - 46%
Bulls - 44%

'90:

MJ - 47%
Bulls - 40%

These were some real defenses, BTW. It wasn't anything like the bush league of the '60's and '70's.

Bulls with MJ - 6 Rings in 13 seasons. Went from a 3peat to getting eliminated in the 2nd round.

Philly with Wilt - 1 ring in 8 years.
LAL with Wilt (and a ton of HOF players including a top 20 and a top 12 player) - 1 ring in 5 years.






TEAMMATES?

:roll: :roll: :roll:


'60 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers
'61 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers
'62 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers
'63 - Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers
'64 - Nate Thurmond, Guy Rodgers
'65 - Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker
'66 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'67 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'68 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'69 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'70 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'71 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'72 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'73 - Jerry West, Gail Goodrich

Wilt's teammates that were All-Stars but NOT HOFers

'62 - Tom Mescherry
'65 - Luke Jackson



Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412, Rodgers .360
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206, Rodgers .368
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271, Rodgers .359
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438 part time, out of position, Rodgers .329
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

Continued...

Now, how about his OPPOSING teams in those years.

'60 Celtics...59-16 with SEVEN HOFers
'62 Celtics...60-20 with SIX HOFers.
'64 Celtics...59-21 with EIGHT HOFers
'65 Celtics...62-18 with SIX HOFers
'66 Celtics...54-26 with FIVE HOFers
'67 Celtics...60-21 with SEVEN HOFers (and Wilt led his Sixers to a 4-1 wipeout)
'68 Celtics...54-28 with SIX HOFers
'69 Celtics...48-34 with FIVE HOFers
'70 Knicks...60-22 with FOUR HOFers
'71 Bucks...66-16 with TWO HOFers
'72 Bucks...63-19 with TWO HOFers (and Wilt led his Lakers to a 4-2 series win.)
'72 Knicks...48-34 with FIVE HOFers (and Wilt slaughtered that team en route to a title and FMVP)
'73 Knicks...56-26 with SIX HOFers.

As John Wooden claimed...swap rosters and coaches with Russell, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing with Wilt's post-season "help"...


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

[sdot_thadon]

It's also amazing how he dominated an era filled with the deepest talent pool/teams/HOFs of any era the league has seen...



Next.
Wait, all this time I had it wrong and he dominated the 80s?

[poido123]

Wait, all this time I had it wrong and he dominated the 80s?


I said Next.

Stop moving the goal posts

[sdot_thadon]

I said Next.

Stop moving the goal posts
Fraudulent info and saying next does nothing for me man. You moved the goalposts after my comment, don't throw stones.

[West-Side]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmkjpwbjh01qh9wcto1_500.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

As for Wilt's scoring "decline"...again, MJ had the luxury of elevating his playoff scoring and efficiency numbers against many "cannon-fodder" teams.

Same with Russell in the 60's against the Lakers...


Psileas actually pointed this fact out long ago, but it is certainly worth repeating...

had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%



Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[poido123]

As for Wilt's scoring "decline"...again, MJ had the luxury of elevating his playoff scoring and efficiency numbers against many "cannon-fodder" teams.

Same with Russell in the 60's against the Lakers...


Seen some of the scoring records he put up against those Knicks teams with a HOF centre?

I hope this is purely to wind up 3ball. Jordan was not a downhill skiier as you are trying to portray here.

[LAZERUSS]

Seen some of the scoring records he put up against those Knicks teams with a HOF centre?

I hope this is purely to wind up 3ball. Jordan was not a downhill skiier as you are trying to portray here.

Chamberlain faced the Knicks HOF center twice in the Finals...and BOTH years were AFTER his MAJOR KNEE surgery, and at ages 34 and 36 years old.

BTW, when a HEALTHY Chamberlain faced that same center...

'64-65...


Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!


'68-69...


Willis Reed vs Wilt in 2 regular season H2H's:

(Reed took over the center position after Bellamy was traded in mid-season)

Reed: 20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, .459 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .688 FG%.

A HEALTHY Chamberlain just DESTROYED the HOF Reed.

[aj1987]

Lozerus completely ignores everything I posted and goes off on an irrelevant nonsensical rant. Typical. :oldlol:

I'll post it again:

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow

PPG drop off from RS to the PO's

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '60 post-season...


The two would meet in the EDF's (and after Chamberlain put up a 38.7 ppg, 23.0 rpg, series against Syracuse in the first round, which included a clinching 53-22 game on 24-42 shooting.)

The series went six games, and Boston won the clinching game six by a 119-117 margin.

Here were their numbers in those six games of EDF's:

Russell: 20.7 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and on a .446 eFG%, and 2.8 apg.
Wilt: 30.5 ppg, 27.5 rpg, and on a .500 FG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .402), and 2.0 apg

However, Wilt badly injured his hand in a melee in game two, and was worthless in game three (and below normal in game four.) His hand was so swollen he could not hold the ball. Of course he was never a great FT shooter, but he went 0-6 from the line in that game (and shot .538 the rest of the series from the FT line.) Game three would probably be the only time in their 49 post-season H2H's in which Russell clearly dominated Wilt. Russell outscored Wilt, 26-12, and outrebounded Wilt, 39-15. The result...a 120-90 blowout win for Boston (BTW, Russell played 40 minutes to Wilt's 35.)

In a must-win game five, Wilt was back to normal, and he erupted for 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds (Russell had 22 point, on 9-16 shooting, with 27 rebounds.)

Russell did play Wilt to a draw in the clinching game six win, (again, 119-117.) Wilt outscored Russell, 26-25, while Russell outrebounded Wilt, 25-24. Chamberlain shot 8-18 from the field, to Russell's 11-26 (Russell had quite a few games in their career H2H's in which he took more FGAs that Wilt BTW.)

Still, the heavily-favored 59-16 Celtics barely survived that game six against Wilt's 49-26 Warriors. And had Wilt not badly injured his hand in game two, who knows how that series might have gone?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 60-61 post-season...

37.0 ppg 23.0 rpg, and a .467 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .403. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot .332 from the field.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '62 post-season...

After single-handedly destroying the Nats in the first round with a 37.0 ppg, 23.0 rpg series, including a series clinching game of 56 points with 35 rebounds...


Russell vs Wilt in the EDF's (Boston wins game seven, 109-107.)

Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .399 eFG%, and 4.6 apg.
Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 eFG%, and 2.9 apg.

Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games. They went 3-3-1 in rebounds.

Russell with two consecutive games of 31-31 and 30-31 (and Wilt outscored him in both.)

Wilt with 6 games of 30+ points.
Wilt had two games of 40+ (41 and 42 points.)

In game two, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20; and outshot Russell, 16-31 to 4-14.


And for the third straight season, Chamberlain shot way over the league eFG% against Russell (.468 to the league eFG% of .426), while holding Russell WAY below it (.383.) And in their second straight playoff series...more of the same. Wilt shot .468 in their 7 game playoff series, in a post-season NBA that shot .411, while holding Russell to a .399 eFG%.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 64 post-season...

After crushing the Hawks in the WCF's, with a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 series, which included a 50 point game, on 22-32 shooting, and then a game seven performance of 39 points, on 19-29 shooting, with 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks...

then going up against Russell's 59-21 Celtics, and total of EIGHT HOFers...


Russell-Wilt ... 5 Finals Games:

Russell: 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, and on a .386 eFG%

Wilt: 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, and on a .517 eFG%.

Wilt went 5-0 in scoring, including margins of 30-14, 27-8, 35-16, and 32-9. He also held a 3-2 edge in rebounding H2H's, including a 38-19 shellacking.

BTW, Wilt's "HOFers"...Thurmond and Rodgers shot .326 and .258 each in that Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 65 post-season...


So, Wilt, basically by himself, carried a putrid SF roster to their best record in the decade of the 60's, which was even better than the Warriors could do with a peak Barry and Nate, and with a much better supporting cast than what Wilt had in '64.

So, now on to the second part of that "trade." The "Bashers" will point to Wilt playing for a losing team in the first half of that season, but they will NEVER bring up what happened AFTER that trade. Chamberlain was once again joining a losing team. The Sixers had gone 34-46 the year before and missed the playoffs. Still, they had some talent...more than Chamberlain had had at any point with the Warriors. While they were still not a good team, they had Hal Greer, Chet Walker, and Luke Jackson.

With a better supporting cast, Chamberlain's shooting dropped, and his scoring went from 38.9 ppg with the Warriors, down to 30.1 with the Sixers. And when Wilt arrived, the team chemistry went on an expected roller-coaster ride. The Sixers wound up with a 40-40 record, but they qualified for the playoffs.

From that point on Chamberlain became as unstoppable as any time in his career. He led the Sixers past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royal team in a romp, which included a monster clinching win performance of 38 points and 26 rebounds.

Then, he single-handedly carried the Sixers to a game seven, one point loss, against Russell's 62-18 Celtics...a team at the peak of it's dynasty. In arguably the most one-sided beatdown by one HOF center to another, Chamberlain just obliterated Russell in that seven game series. Russell slightly outplayed Wilt in game three, but Wilt just waxed Russell in the other six.

Furthermore, in game seven, Chamberlain "the choker" exploded for a 30 point, 12-15 FG/FGA, 32 rebound game. Not only that, with Boston leading 110-101 and three minutes remaining, Wilt took over. He scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 seconds remaining, and then a thurnderous dunk over a helpless Russell with five seconds left to draw the Sixers to within one point. The "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with the inbounds pass, and the Sixers had the ball under their basket with a chance to pull off perhaps the biggest upset in NBA post-season history. Alas, "Havlicek stole the ball!", and Boston escaped with a narrow win. BTW, that was just one of many big games by a Russell teammate during his 11 title runs. Even Russell admitted that Sam Jones saved Boston's season six times in their first eight rings.

Chamberlain was now almost universally accepted as the best player in the game. Beginning with the very next season, Wilt would go on to win the first of three straight MVPs (the last two were runaways BTW.) And, for the entire decade of the 60's, Chamberlain held a massive 7-2 edge in First team All-NBA selections over Russell.



Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!

And, Wilt vs. LA in 8 H2H games:

29.9 ppg, 22.4 rpg, and on a .476 FG%.

This was Wilt's worst season against the Lakers to date, but he still put up three 40+ games (with a high of 41 points.)

Wilt vs Russell in 7 EDF's games:

30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, and a .555 eFG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games, including margins of 30-15, 34-18, 30-12, 30-12, and 33-11. Chamberlain also held a 5-2 margin in rebounding H2H's in that post-season, including margins of 37-26, and 39-16.

Again...just total domination against four HOF centers.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '66 post-season...


Arguably only Chamberlain's very next season would rank higher all-time.

How dominant was Wilt in 65-66? He led the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...AND, to the best record in the league. Overall, Chamberlain led the NBA in THIRTEEN of their 23 major statistical categories, including Win Shares (and by a MILE) and PER at 28.3 (BTW...that PER sure seems low considering all he did.) And, of course, those statistical categories did not include offensive and defensive rebounding, nor TRB%, nor blocked shots...all of which Wilt would probably have run away with. BTW, Chamberlain not only led the NBA in 13 categories, but he finished in the Top-5 in four more.

But his dominance went well beyond his overall league numbers. He also just ANNIHILATED his HOF opposing centers in the process. I didn't include Reed in these numbers, simply because early in the season, the Knicks acquired Walt Bellamy, and then moved Reed to PF. Reed's numbers naturally took a big hit. His scoring fell to 15.5 ppg, his rebounding declined to 11.6 rpg, and his FG% was only .434.

Thurmond's overall numbers, as a starter, also dropped somewhat from his 64-65 season. Remember, in Nate's 40 games as a starter in 64-65, he averaged 20.9 ppg, and in his known 17 rebounding games, he was at 24.9 rpg that season. In the 65-66 season, he came in at 16.3 ppg, 18.0 rpg, and shot .406. Still, his offensive production naturally declined somewhat because of the arrival of rookie Rick Barry, who would average 25.7 ppg in that season.

Chamberlain's Sixers had the best record in the league, at 55-25, but they had to win their last 11 straight games to pass the seven-time defending champion Celtics, who finished at 54-26. And, Wilt's Sixers also held a 6-3 margin over Russell's Celtics in their nine H2H games. But, the fact remained that Boston had the best roster in the league. Their won-loss record was very deceptive simply because the core of their roster missed a ton of games. Russell missed two games, Havlicek missed nine, and Sam Jones missed 13.

Again, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3 against Boston in their nine regular season H2H's, BUT, in the EDF's, the Celtics waltzed past Philly, 4-1. The "Wilt-bashers" would blame Wilt, of course, BUT, the reality was, Wilt's playoff numbers were nearly identical to his regular season H2H numbers against Boston in that series. The reason for the Sixer collapse? Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot...get this... .352 from the field in the EDF's.


Continued....


Russell vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 9.4 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, .301 FG%
Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.2 apg (7 known) and .472 FG%

Just a staggering domination.

Wilt outscored Russell 8-0-1, and had scoring margins of 31-11, 27-6, 29-3, 32-8, 30-5, and 37-13.

Wilt held a 5-4 rebounding edge, but he also crushed Russell by margins of 32-22, 30-20, 36-20, 30-10, 42-21, and 40-17.

Russell vs. Wilt in 5 EDF games:

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 6.3 apg (3 known), .424 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.2 apg (2 known games) .509 FG%

Wilt held a 4-1 scoring margin, including margins of 31-11, and 46-18. He also had a 4-1 rebounding advantage, including a margin of 32-18.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 67 post-season...


After the Sixers steamrolled the NBA during the regular season, they pummelled Oscar's Royals in the first round of the playoffs. In the first game of that series, Chamberlain hung a 41 point game, on 19-30 shooting, which would be the highest scoring game by a Sixer in the post-season. He followed that up with a 37 point game, on 16-24 shooting. In game three he resumed his facilitating, and had a monster 16-30-19 (with an estimated 20 blocked shots.) Those 19 assists were a post-season record (tied with Cousy) at the time. And, of course, it is still, by far, the most ever by a center in the post-season. For the series, Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg (yes a triple-double series), and on a .617 FG% (in a post-season that would shoot .428.)

Chamberlain's Sixers then met the eight-time defending champion Celtics. The Wilt critics eagerly anticipated his team folding, though. However, it never came close to happening. The Sixers easily won the first three games of the series. In game one, Chamberlain hung an official "quad double" with a monster 24-32-13-12 game. In game three he set an all-time playoff record with a 41 rebound game. However, with Wilt hobbled by sore knees, the Celtics narrowly avoided a sweep in game four. Wilt had a good game, 22-22-10 but he was outrebounded by Russell for the only time in the series, 28-22, and Boston escaped with a 121-117 win.

The proud Celtics came out on fire in game five. Late in the first period they opened up a 17 point lead, and the Wilt skeptics now held some hope for a possible "choke job." However, Wilt pounded Russell in the first half with 22 points, and single-handedly kept his Sixers in the game, and by halftime Philly had closed to within 70-65. The 76ers started pulling away in the third quarter, and by mid-way in the 4th period they were routing the Celtics by a 131-104 margin... en route to a 140-116 win. From late in the first quarter, to mid-way thru the 4th, the Sixers had outscored Boston by 44 points!

And the Russell supporters have never been able to answer this question, either:

In the clinching game five of the '66 EDF's, Wilt's Sixers were down 3-1 against Russell's Celtics. Chamberlain exploded for a 46 point, 34 rebound game, but alas, with his teammates contributing absolutely nothing in that series, Philly lost the game, 120-112.

In the 66-67 EDF's, it was now Russell who was faced with that exact same scenario. His team was down 3-1, and desperately needed Russell to come up with a huge effort. Instead, Russell led the quietly, like a lamb being led to slaughter, in a blowout loss. Why? Where was Russell's 46 point game against Wilt? In that game five loss, Russell scored FOUR points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists. Meanwhile, Chamberlain "the choker" had 29 points (again, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was still close), on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and seven blocked shots.

For the series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 11.4 ppg; outebounded Russell by a staggering 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin; outassisted Russell by a 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg (yes, yet another triple double series); and outshot Russell from the floor by a .556 to .358 margin. And in their known games, Wilt outblocked Russell by a 29-8 margin.


Wilt then faced his former Warrior team, and Thurmond, in the Finals. While the overall numbers were somewhat close, they were very deceiving. Wilt badly outplayed Thurmond in the last five games of that six game series, in leading his Sixers to a 4-2 title romp. Wilt outscored Nate, 17.7 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded Nate, 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg; outassisted Nate, 6.8 apg to 3.3 apg; and outshot Thurmond by an unfathomable .560 to .343 margin. Overall, Wilt outscored Nate, 5-1; outrebounded Nate, 5-1; outassisted Nate, 5-1; and outshot Nate from the floor, 6-0, in those six games. And in the title-clinching game six, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 24-12; outrebounded Nate, 23-22; and outshot him by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin. Just a complete and one-sided beatdown.

Next...Wilt's numbers against those HOF peers...


Bellamy vs. Wilt in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 23.2 ppg, 15.9 rpg (8 known), and no known FG% games
Wilt: 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on a .709 FG% (!)

Unfortunately, we do not have any Bellamy FG% games, but as you can see, Wilt shot an unfathomable .709 against Bellamy (and perhaps Reed at times, as well.) For the first time in their six seasonal H2H's, Bellamy outscored Wilt (just barely.) Bellamy had six games of 20+, with a high game of 34 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 20. Wilt also had six games of 20+ points against Bellamy, with a high game of 35 points (on 15-18 shooting.) Wilt also had 8 games of 20+ rebounds, with highs of 30 and 33 against Bellamy. Overall, Wilt held a 5-3-1 scoring margin, and an 8-0 rebounding margin in the known H2H's.


Thurmond vs. Wilt in their 6 regular season H2H's:

Nate: 13.2 ppg, 23.8 rpg (5 known), .320 FG% (3 known).
Wilt: 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and on a .633 FG%.

Thanks to Julizaver's research, we now know that Thurmond shot 16-50 in tree of their known H2H's, or an eye-popping .320 FG%, and we KNOW Chamberlain hung an unfathomable .633 FG% against Thurmond in those six H2H's (which is remarkable considering that a prime Kareem shot .447 against a full-time Nate from '69 thru '73.) Nate's high point game against Wilt was 21 points (and his high rebounding game of 29 came in the same game.) Chamberlain had three games of 20+ against Thurmond with highs of 30 and 27. Wilt also had a 31 rebound game against Nate. Wilt held a 5-0-1 scoring margin, and they were 2-2-1 in known rebounding H2H's.

Thurmond vs. Wilt in their 6 Finals' games:

Nate: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, and on a .343 FG%
Wilt: 17.7 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%

Nate's high game came against Wilt in game one, with 24 points, which was also his rebounding high with 31 (Wilt outrebounded Nate in that game 33-31.) Wilt had three games of 20+, with highs of 26 and 24 points. Wilt's rebounding high game was 38. Overall, Wilt outscored Nate, 5-1; outrebounded Nate, 5-1; outassisted Nate, 5-1; and outshot Nate from the floor, 6-0.


Russell vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 12.2 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, .425 FG% (8 known)
Wilt: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.3 apg, .549 FG%

Russell's high point game against Wilt was 22 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 29. Wilt had 4 games of 20+ points against Russell, with a high of 30 points. Chamberlain had two games of 31 and 32 reounds. Overall, Wilt outscored Russell, 8-1, and outrebounded Russell, 7-2.

Russell vs. Wilt in 5 EDF's H2H's:

Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, .358 FG%
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and on a .556 FG%

Russell's high point game was 20 points, and his high rebounding game was 29. Wilt had 4 games of 20+ points, with a high of 29. And Wilt also had 3 games of 30+ rebounds (32, 36, and 41.) Overall, Wilt outscored Russell, 5-0; outrebounded Russell, 4-1; outassisted Russell, 3-0-2; and outshot Russell, 5-0.

An unbelievable overall domination of his three HOF peers...

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '68 post-season...


And he just waxed Russell in their eight regular season meetings. Of course, that was the norm for Wilt, but even in a season in which he was, at times, coasting, he managed to just murder Russell.

Of course, a motivated Wilt put up unfathomable games against the rest of the NBA. If anyone would question Wilt's dominance, how come he was the only one of the HOF centers who could routinely pour in 35-40-50- and even a 68 point game against the "lessor" centers (most of whom were decent to good ...with Zelmo Beaty actually being the second best scoring center in that 67-68 season at 21.1 ppg, which was higher than Nate's part-time 20.5 ppg mark, and Bellamy's 16.7 ppg season)?

But, in the post-season, Chamberlain's numbers against both Bellamy, and Russell, were MUCH better than what they had been in his regular season H2H's. In fact, before Wilt's knees finally tired in the last two games of the '68 EDF's against Russell, he had just crushed both Bellamy and Russell in his first 11 playoff games. However, he played every minute of that post-season, which included THREE straight games in three straight nights in the first round against the Knicks. Furthermore, by the time he reached the EDF's against Boston, game recaps had Wilt NOTICEABLY limping in that series. He had been nursing an assortment of ailments, including a strained ham-string, a tear in his quad, and even a bum toe.

And the Sixer team that had ransacked the NBA during the regular season, would be a shell by the end of the '68 ECF's. In the first round hard-fought series against the Knicks, the Sixers lost star Billy Cunningham to an injured wrist in overtime in game three, and he wad done for the playoffs. How important was Cunningham? During the regular season, and coming off the bench, he had averaged 18.9 ppg. In the first three games of the NY series, he averaged 20.7 ppg (and on an excellent .558 FG%.) He was already the Sixers third best player, and a case could be made that he was on his way to being their second best player when he went down.

Still, Chamberlain just dominated the entire six game series. He led both teams in scoring, rebounding, and even assists (and surely in blocked shots, too.) In game one, he returned to the high-powered "scoring" Wilt, and just shelled Bellamy, outscoring him, 37-14, outrebounding him, 29-15, and on 17-29 shooting, with 7 assists,...and while I don't have Bellamy's individual shooting stats, he had a miserable series in that regard, and likely he was atrocious in this game.

Chamberlain mopped the floor with Bellamy (and likely double-teams from Reed), in EVERY game of that series. Overall, he outscored Bellamy, 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded Bells, 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; and outshot Bellamy by a staggering .584 to .421 margin (and keep in mind that Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season.) Oh, and Wilt also found time to hand out 6.3 apg, as well.

The Sixers pounded NY in the clinching game six, and moved on to the EDF's, where they would face Russell's Celtics. And Philly was a prohibitive favorite going in, even without Cunningham.


However, Boston, as always, had considerably more depth, while the Sixers, who had a short rotation in their regular season, were already down a key player in Cunningham. Still, after sleep-walking thru game one, the Sixers found themselves down 1-0. You couldn't blame Wilt, though, as he just abused Russell in that game. He outscored Russell, 33-11 (on 14-24 shooting), and outrebounded Russell, 25-22, and outassisted Russell, 5-4.

Even without Cunningham, the Sixers managed to forge a 3-1 series lead. After game four, even Auerbach all but conceded ("Its too bad because people will forget just how great he [Russell] has been.")

The Sixers were going home, and leading 3-1. Most observers declared the series over. And a hobbled Wilt was determined to finish them, too. He just torched Russell in game five. He outscored him, 28-8, outrebounded him, 30-24, outassisted him, 7-4, and outshot him, 11-21 to 4-10. Alas, with the score 81-79, the Sixers suffered not one, but TWO damaging injuries. Both PF Luke Jackson, and SG Wali Jones went down with leg injuries. Boston pulled away in the 4th quarter, and suddenly they had new life, and heading back to Boston.

Clearly, though, Chamberlain had OWNED Russell up to that point in that series. He outplayed, or downright waxed Russell in the first five games of that series. Collectively, he had outscored Russell by a 24.2 ppg to 13.2 ppg margin; outrebounded Russell by a 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg margin; outassisted Russell by a 7.8 to 3.8 apg margin; and outshot Russell by a staggering .539 to .416 margin. Russell was hanging on for dear life.

Both Jones and Jackson made a go of it in game six, but Jackson only scored 10 points, and Jones didn't score a point. To make matters worse, Wilt was now on his last legs. He played one of the worst games of his post-season career (still a 20 point, 27 rebound game BTW), when he shot a horrid 6-21 from the field, and an awful 8-23 from the line. As bad as he played (and Russell finally outplayed him with a 17-31-5 game), the Sixers valiantly hung in, and only lost by eight points.

It was now deadlocked at 3-3, and heading back to Philly. The Sixers were DECIMATED by injuries, and even Greer, who had played brilliantly in game six, with 40 points, was now hurting.

The proud Celtics, riding a wave of momentum, jumped out to a solid lead, and never relinguished it. The Sixers, who had rode outside shooting, and devastating fast break all season, suddenly went cold from the outside, and incredibly, did not score one fast break basket the entire game. Philly started out misfiring to the tune of 12-49 from the field, and never recovered. They fought to the end, though, before finally falling, 100-96.

Of course, Wilt took the brunt of the blame, despite his injuries. Even Russell said, "A lessor man would not have played", which of course meant, that virtually NO ONE else would have played under the same circumstances. Wilt took a total of NINE shots in the game, and only TWO shots in the second half. However, it was clearly not WILT's doing. Normally Wilt touched the ball some 15 times per quarter during the season. In game seven, he touched the ball at the offensive end a TOTAL of NINE times in the second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter (and both of those were on offensive rebounds.) His teammates had completely forgotten about him. And while Chamberlain was going 4-9 from the field...Greer shot 8-25; Walker and the injured Jones EACH went 8-22; the hobbled Jackson went 7-17; and Matt Guokas went 2-10 off the bench. Wilt's teammates collectively shot .343 in that seventh game...and had ignored Wilt the entire second half.

The Wilt pundits jumped all over Wilt. Why hadn't he demanded the ball? Of course, Chamberlain was in a "no-win" situation. How would it have looked had Wilt, who had been facilitating all season long, suddenly demanded that his teammates give him the ball? The "bashers" would have had a field day with that one, too. They would have said, "that's the REAL Wilt...a selfish ball-hog demanding the ball in the most important game of the season." And the biggest blame had to go to Wilt's coach, Alex Hannum, (a normally brilliant coach BTW), who never once asked Wilt's teammates to get him the damn ball.

In any case, a hobbled Chamberlain did not play poorly. He still pulled down a game high 34 rebounds, all while outscoring Russell, 14-12. But, once again, it was WILT who was ripped, and not his wildly shot-jacking teammates, who once again, puked all over the floor in their biggest game. Of course, they were not really to blame, either, despite their horrendous shooting. The entire team was RAVAGED with injuries, and to be honest, it was a tribute to their overall determination, that they only lost a game seven by four points.

Clearly, a healthy Sixer roster would have crushed Boston in the playoffs that season...just as they had in the '67 ECF's. And with Russell leading Boston to a 4-2 win over LA, there would have been no doubt that the Sixers would have pummeled the Lakers in the Finals, either. They held a 5-2 regular season mark over LA, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain had OVERWHELMED them, in those seven games. In those seven H2H's, all Wilt did was to average 25.3 ppg, 26.9 rpg, 8.6 apg, and on a .638 FG%. Of course, he also had that massive 53-32-14 game (on 24-29 shooting), as well.

One can only imagine the Playoffs, and Finals Records, that Wilt would own today, had he had the good fortune to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, even once, in his nine seasons in the league before finally being "traded" to them before the start of the 68-69 season.

[rmt]

Lazeruss, don't know if your anti-MJ post is a result of your love for Wilt, but when it comes to MJ vs Lebron - there is no contest. I hated MJ, but he has a quality that Lebron doesn't. When MJ was on the court, HE and every other player knew that he was the best and that he was going to find a way to win. That is lacking in Lebron - he does not play like he KNOWS he's the best player in the world. I don't know if it's self-doubt or what but that competitive spirit that was SO evident in MJ (especially in crunch-time) is missing. But that's okay, he's still the best player on the planet without it - to compare him to MJ is unfair - look 2/6 just does not compare to 6/6.

And, of course, MJ would not have been team-hopping - chasing championships.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '69 post-season...


68-69.

The Lakers were again headed to the Finals. This would be there sixth trip in eight years, and for the first time, they came in as favorites. Why? Because they finally had an answer for Bill Russell.

Not only that, but LA, who had started the playoffs down 0-2, were coming into the Finals with eight wins in their last nine games.

Meanwhile, Boston, which had struggled all season long, and only finished 4th in their conference, were beginning to peak at the right time. They stomped Wilt's former team, the 55-27 Sixers, in the first round, 4-1 (despite Wilt's "replacements" putting up a combined 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and .510 FG% series.) Then, with Russell suddenly rising up offensively, they stunned the favored Knicks, 4-2. Russell, who had only averaged 9.9 ppg during the regular season, elevated his scoring to 16.3 ppg in that series, which included games of 21 and 25 points.

And while virtually no one gave Boston much of a chance going into the Finals, they did have one enormous advantage over LA, and that was depth. They could go go a solid nine deep, and all nine players could be productive (as we would see in the most pivotal game of the series.)

Russell continued to surprise in the post-season, and in game one, he outplayed Wilt, outscoring him, 16-15, and outrebounding Wilt, 27-23. This was totally unexpected, as Chamberlain had owned Russell durihg their six regular season H2H's.

Still, behind West's spectacular 53 points and 10 assists, the Lakers escaped with a game one win, 120-118. And even Baylor had played reasonably well, with 24 points, on 10-21 shooting.

The Lakers took firm control of the series in game two, with a 118-112 win. However, for the second consecutive game, Russell outscored and outrebounded Wilt. West was just brilliant again, with 41 points, and even Baylor played well, pouring in 32 points on a stunning 11-15 shooting.

The Lakers now led the series, 2-0, and heading back to Boston they were poised to win their first ever title in Los Angeles. And while Russell had outplayed Wilt in the first two games, no one expected that trend to continue, and with West playing at an unfathomable level, and Baylor seemingly coming out of his slump, there was now a possibilty of a Laker sweep. And how sweet would that have been for Laker fans, as well as Wilt?

Any thoughts of a sweep went down the drain in game three. Boston rebounded with a 111-105 win. Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell in that loss, outscoring him 16-11, and outrebounding him, 26-18. However, BOTH Baylor and West fell apart in the 4th quarter, shooting a combined 1-14 from the field. Baylor was particularly putrid, scoring 11 points on 4-18 shooting.

Game four would ultimately decide the series. The game was sloppily played throughout, and neither team played well offensively. Still, the Lakers had the lead, 88-87, and the ball, with 15 seconds left. For all of his incompetence, Laker head coach Butch Van Breda Kolff, made one of his two biggest coaching blunders at the worst possible time. Instead of putting the ball into "Mr. Clutch's" hands, he had Johnny Egan holding the fate of the series in his hands, instead. And the result was as expected. Egan was stripped by Em Bryant, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, banked in the game winner at the buzzer. That ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a series romp, and in fact, cost them the title.

Still, it was not all Egan's fault. Only West had played well, with a monster 40 point game on 15-30 from the field, and 10-10 from the line. Wilt had a miserable offensive game, scoring a meager 8 points, on 3-8 from the field, and 2-11 from the line. However, his counterpart, Russell, was no better, as he only scored 6 points on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. Furthermore, Wilt outrebounded him, 31-29. No, the real blame lied in the play of Baylor. Baylor scored a pathetic 5 points, on a horrific 2-14 shooting from the field, AND 1-5 from the line.

The Lakers stormed back on their home floor in game five, with a solid 117-104 win. Chamberlain waxed Russell in this game, outscoring him 13-7, and outrebounding him, 31-13. West poured in 39 points, and even Egan finally made a contribution with 23 points. However, Baylor once again struggled, scoring 8 points on 4-13 shooting. In his last three games, Baylor had gone 10-45 from the field, or an unfathomable, ... .222 from the field.

With a chance to wrap up the series back in Boston in game six, Wilt let his team down. He played a lethargic game, and for the third time in the series, Russell outplayed him. Chamberlain scored a meager 8 points on 1-5 from the field, and was outrebounded by Russell, 19-18. West also had his worst game of the series, with 26 points on 9-19 shooting, but Baylor finally snapped back from his horrible slump with a 26 point game, on 9-18 shooting. Boston extended the series to a game seven, with a 99-90 win.

The series headed back to Los Angeles for a game seven...

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

68-69 continued...


68-69.

The '69 Finals were the sixth meeting in eight years between the Lakers and Celtics, but for the first time, LA had home court advantage.

Laker owner Jack Kent Cooke was so confident that his Lakers would win their first ever title in Los Angeles, that he hung "victory" balloons from the rafters, and had champagne on ice in the dressing room.

If Boston needed an additional motivation, that was it. Russell pointed out the balloons to his teammates, and from the opening tap, the proud Celtics took control of the game. By late in the third period they had opened up a 15 point lead. To make matters even worse, Chamberlain picked up his 5th personal foul before the end of the quarter.

And when Boston extended the lead to 17 with a little over 10 minutes left, all looked bleak for LA. Then Russell picked up HIS 5th personal foul. For all the undeserved criticism Wilt received for his supposed weak play with five fouls, which was just ridiculous, since he seldom even committed even three in a game...how about Russell? Immediately after Russell picked up his 5th foul, the Lakers went into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defense of Russell for an easy layin.

Alas, with BVK's coaching, Wilt did not receive the ball in the low post again. Shortly after Russell's 5th personal, Sam Jones fouled out. Jones had been brilliant in his final game of his career, with 24 points, on 10-16 shooting. And with Russell in hiding the rest of the game, the Lakers surged back. With six minutes remaining, Wilt grabbed a rebound that led to a fast break basket, and the margin was now nine. However, Chamberlain had landed awkwardly, and injured his knee. He stayed in long enough to grab another rebound, and his outlet to West led to a foul. Wilt had to come out. West hit both FTs, and with deficit was now seven. In a span of a little over four minutes, the Lakers had outscored the Celtics by 10 points. Boston was now clearly running on fumes.

LA continued to cut into the deficit, and with about three minutes remaining, Wilt asked to go back in. Van Breda Kolff would make the worst coaching decision of his career. He kept Wilt on the bench, and instead rode the great Mel f***ing Counts down the stretch. Still, LA cut the margin to 103-102 late. Then, with Counts missing a wide open shot, and then committing a horrible turnover in the last minute, and with Boston getting yet another miracle shot, this time from Don Nelson, the Celtics escaped with a 108-106 win, and yet another bitter defeat for LA.

Chamberlain badly outplayed Russell in the game. He outscored him, 18-6; he outshot him, 7-8 to 2-7; and he outrebounded him, 27-21. And while Wilt was on the bench in the last five minutes of the game, Russell was nowhere to be found in the entire 4th quarter. In fact, Chamberlain, on an injured knee, and in two straight possessions, had matched Russell's entire rebounding for the 4th quarter (and Wilt, playing five minutes less in that period, outrebounded him, 7-2.)

Boston did get great play from Sam Jones, but their real hero was John Havlicek, with his 26 points on 11-19 shooting. And as I pointed out earlier, the Boston "role" players came up huge. Nelson not only hit the game-winner, he kicked in with 16 points. And Em Bryant, one of the heroes in the game four win, poured in 20 points.

Meanwhile on the LA side, there was blame to go all around. West had played brilliantly, as he did the entire series, scoring 42 points, grabbing 13 rebounds, and handing out 12 assists, but even he missed 4 FTs, two in the last period, and overall, shot 14-29 from the field. Of course, no one played worse than Baylor, who shot 8-22 from the field, and overall, "led" LA as their worst shooter in the post-season (.385.)

Of course, the real blame for the Laker loss lay directly on the shoulders of Van Breda Kolff. He repeatedly made coaching blunders the entire series, and his stubborn disdain for Wilt, not only cost LA a title, but basically his coaching career, as well. When West found out what had transpired in the last few minutes, he was furious. VBK quickly "retired" before suffering the embarrassment of a well deserved firing.

Russell, who once again, was a non-factor in the 4th period, shocked Wilt when he claimed that "nothing short of a broken leg would have kept me out", (albeit, he had an injured ankle in the '58 series, and missed two games.) Chamberlain was deeply hurt, and the two did not speak for many years, until Russell finally apologized both in private, and then in public.

Of the several close losses that Wilt had had in his NBA career, this one was the worst. He had a roster, that was on paper anyway, better than the aging roster that Russell had. And while Havlicek probably deserved the FMVP as much as West, West had been sensational in the series. For the first time in Wilt's career, he was not the best player on the floor, and in fact, he had a teammate that was...and he still came up short.

Chamberlain's "redemption" would come a few years later, though.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, don't know if your anti-MJ post is a result of your love for Wilt, but when it comes to MJ vs Lebron - there is no contest. I hated MJ, but he has a quality that Lebron doesn't. When MJ was on the court, HE and every other player knew that he was the best and that he was going to find a way to win. That is lacking in Lebron - he does not play like he KNOWS he's the best player in the world. I don't know if it's self-doubt or what but that competitive spirit that was SO evident in MJ (especially in crunch-time) is missing. But that's okay, he's still the best player on the planet without it - to compare him to MJ is unfair - look 2/6 just does not compare to 6/6.

And, of course, MJ would not have been team-hopping - chasing championships.

No rational poster here would argue your points...

:cheers:

[aj1987]

Laz melting down HARD. :roll:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Leshortcut
Legiven
Lecolluder
LenotanAlltimegreat

[superteamtheory]

So now Dan Gilbert is some kind of genius now, after sucking before?

- well, 3Bull, at least you admit Dan Gilbert sucked before and Cavs management had no idea what they were doing ... that's progress

- Cleveland changing GMs has resulted in improved management at least so far from David Griffin ... :confusedshrug:

- on the other hand, all they've really done so far is create a trade exception with the help of a lottery team, sign back a few of their players and add a guy who used to play for them ... they are trying but haven't swung any blockbuster trades yet (the reported Joe Johnson deal, also nothing came of Jamal Crawford rumours either) ... so I wouldn't say their offseason has been all that miraculous... yet...

- last time I checked they gambled huge and riskily gave up the ROY for Kevin Love with no assurances he'd come back (and he got injured on top of it)... 3Bull wtf.. Wolves just wanted to make that deal to acquire a guy who could become one of the league's top players

- Spurs. look at what the ****ing Spurs are doing. the Cavs' fear/respect of Spurs is mainly what's fuelling these panics for more depth and I sure as hell can't blame them based on history... I'm sure they like their odds vs. deep Warriors, big 2 Thunder, big 3 Rockets, superstacked Clippers etc.

- I have no idea if Bron will ever win a championship again (those West teams are strong, other players will come into the picture in time, etc.) ... a lot will depend on whether or not Kyrie Irving holds up / becomes a HOF type player (maybe K. Love too) ... but considering MJ the GOAT had equal or better odds his last 6or7 years, LBJ seems entitled to something similar ...

- if you could just put an MJ poster on the ceiling above your bed, you'd litter the forum less

:banana:

[ISHGoat]

Laz melting down HARD. :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

but Im pretty sure at this point he has all his essays saved and he just CP's the most relevant one.

[TheMarkMadsen]

the real conspiracy was when they traded Big Z for Jaminson and then resigned Big Z like 2 weeks later

:roll: :roll:

that was some bull shit, league even had to change the rules after that incident.. really felt like the nba wanted lebron in the final that year

[smoovegittar]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

His "peak" Cavs team fielded a Finals roster with the "Three Stooges" as his primary teammates (Smith with his .326 FG%; Deli with his .283 FG%, and Shumpert with his .258 FG%.)

And yet, Lebron somehow carried THAT roster to TWO wins, and two more close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that was essentially the best offensive and defensive team in the league.

Just what would Lebron have done with a healthy Kyrie, Love, and Varejao?

Hence my giving Bron props during that series. Can't hate on the player no more.

[HOoopCityJones]

the real conspiracy was when they traded Big Z for Jaminson and then resigned Big Z like 2 weeks later

:roll: :roll:

that was some bull shit, league even had to change the rules after that incident.. really felt like the nba wanted lebron in the final that year

:biggums: This shit been going on long before the Summer of 2010. Damn.

[3ball]

but considering MJ the GOAT had equal or better odds his last 6or7 years, LBJ seems entitled to something similar ...


In 2011, Lebron stacked his team... In 2013, Lebron got a goat team addition in Ray Allen, who ended up saving his career.. I wouldn't be on here if he misses that shot.

In 2014 summer, Lebron went to Cleveland and stacked his team again... Then, mid-season, he was the beneficiary of a surprise windfall trade that netted him Mosgov, Shumpert, and JR Smith, who would help him make the Finals when Love and Kyrie went down.

Now, he's stacking his team again.. Otoh, Jordan NEVER had this level of "okay, let's add this, guy, that guy and that guy, and oh boy, what a stacked team."... He just took what he was given, and built it into a champion.

Btw, Lebron still had Kyrie and Love for the ENTIRE 2015 regular season - he didn't carry a Love/Kyrie-less team the entire season... If he had, would he still have the energy to take the champs to 6 games in the playoffs the way MJ did with his lottery team in 1989?...

Obviously not - we know that stamina is a major issue for Lebron and one of his big weaknesses (see Game 1 2014 Finals... See Game critical Game 4 this year... See all the excuses he's made his entire career).

[branslowski]

Funny how Laz is a fan of 2 chokers:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

:biggums: This shit been going on long before the Summer of 2010. Damn.

that trade was shady af

Big Z got traded and then 3 days later he's already discussing his return to the Cavs and you know who was lobbying for him to get back..

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4945097

so yeah. in 2010 the cavs traded for a 21/9 PF and didn't have to lose anything in the process..

of course Jaminson wasn't as effective alongside bran (who is?) so lebron still "didn't have enough help"

and the league knew what was going on.. they just didn't have "any proof" that there was an agreement for Big Z to return to CLE before the trade...

I guess Big Z forfeiting 1.5 mil just three days after the trade combined with bran openly lobbying for his return wasn't proof enough lmao


An NBA official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press on Monday that the league had not threatened to stop Ilgauskas from returning to the Cavs, saying it would step in only if there were proof of an agreement before the trade was made.

[Funktion]

I'll punch you in the face when LeBron wins his 3rd NBA title next year.

3/7?

[superteamtheory]

(see Game 1 2014 Finals... See Game critical Game 4 this year...

He has played record # playoff minutes in the last few years... Many predicted it would catch up to him at some point... Maybe it did...

LeBron wouldn't have had to jump teams if the Cavs had been able to develop anything significant while he was there in the beginning..

Later MJ didn't need to stack rosters any more than they already were because he wasn't up against something like the Big 4 Celtics or 2014 or 2016 Spurs.. MJ's Finals matchups were typically comparable to the Thunder vs. Heat situation -- IMO he always had a slight edge.. Or at least going into every match up from 92 to 98 I'd take his roster (with him included of course) over the competition.. And MJ is the GOAT and has these advantages, so why can't guys who aren't 1A also?

But you're so blinded by MJ worship you don't even understand the anti-bashing points some on these forums are trying to make..

If you told me you were a guy who enjoyed watching any top 50 player, I wouldn't believe you.. You only enjoy MJ and others who play into your MJ agenda..

[HurricaneKid]

Is the OP really suggesting that trading players for nothing is so advantageous to Cle that it should be banned?

That the trade exception is merely a plot to give LeBron more Championships?

LOL at one more ridiculous thread from 3Ball.

[aj1987]

of course Jaminson wasn't as effective alongside bran (who is?) so lebron still "didn't have enough help"

Stop being such a salty bitch. Dude was the 3rd option on the Cav's. Not to mention a 6 MPG drop in playing time. He did average the 2nd highest FG% of his career though.

[nzahir]

Stop being such a salty bitch. Dude was the 3rd option on the Cav's. Not to mention a 6 MPG drop in playing time. He did average the 2nd highest FG% of his career though.
This guy just discredits the positive value lebron brings to everyones fg % because he gets them easier shots. But everyone knows 3ball is borderline autistic. He even discredits pippens defense and compares his numbers to a guy a like jamison or mo will. Doesnt even count rodmans defense(I remember when rodman was locking MJ down in the pistons days)

[sdot_thadon]

This guy just discredits the positive value lebron brings to everyones fg % because he gets them easier shots. But everyone knows 3ball is borderline autistic. He even discredits pippens defense and compares his numbers to a guy a like jamison or mo will. Doesnt even count rodmans defense(I remember when rodman was locking MJ down in the pistons days)
Oh no only MJ's defense and intangibles are valid, don't try that teammate shit. We all know he played alone. /3ball

[raprap]

Better at life? 3ball or LeBron? Too tired to post the stats. Would rep if someone can post the yearly earnings of both. :cheers:

[nzahir]

Better at life? 3ball or LeBron? Too tired to post the stats. Would rep if someone can post the yearly earnings of both. :cheers:
Lebron with a cool 65 million made last year
http://www.forbes.com/profile/lebron-james/?list=athletes

3balls current home in Oklahoma, after he got his pay raise(but that would imply he has a job)
http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1418/old_shacka_lrg.jpg

[3ball]

He has played record # playoff minutes in the last few years... Many predicted it would catch up to him at some point... Maybe it did...


MJ won the championship in 1997 and 1998 having accumulated the more minutes than Lebron has.. And he was 35, not 30..

The reality is that Lebron's had cramps and stamina issues his whole career.

It's always been a weakness in comparison to MJ - I mean, if he's getting "gassed" having to guard Iggy's 16 ppg, what is he going to do against MJ's 32 ppg and non-stop aggression?.. Gatorade won't be enough.





LeBron wouldn't need to jump teams if the Cavs had been able to develop anything significant while he was there in the beginning..


You're missing the obvious - the Cavs assembled a supporting cast that won 66 and 61 games behind Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.

Compare that to the Bulls 1989 supporting cast that could only muster 47 wins behind MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.

Lebron had a legit 66-win supporting cast, and then a 61-win supporting cast.. He had two teams that were the #1 seed and favorite to win the East - how is that not significant?... What more did you want?.. You can't get any better than the 1 seed and 60+ wins.





IMO MJ always had a slight edge roster-wise going into the Finals.. Or at least going into every match up from 92 to 98 I'd take his roster (with him included of course) over the competition..


That's BS... You would only choose the Bulls in hindsight because they won and showed they were the better team.

AT THE TIME, the 1993 Suns had far more talent than the 1993 Bulls on paper heading into the series...

There is no debating this, although you will attempt to rewrite history, even though you're aware that MJ's 41/9/6 dominated the series - seriously, how good could his supporting cast have been?.. And why can't I require Lebron to dominate to the same extent to be considered anywhere near MJ's level?

Also, the 1997 and 1998 Utah Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (by far his most talented and deep roster ever) TWICE... Then they dismantled Popovich's 56-win Duncan/Robinson team in 5 games.. This is the team MJ beat twice in two close Finals series.





MJ wasn't up against something like the Big 4 Celtics or 2014 or 2016 Spurs


Lebron lost to the Celtics just like MJ lost to the Bad Boys...

But when MJ beat the Bad Boys in 1991, at least they were defending champs and healthy, whereas the Celtics were 4 years removed from being champs, post-Garnett injury, and old.. Not sure how you get past these facts.





MJ's Finals matchups were typically comparable to the Thunder vs. Heat situation


Not at all - MJ never faced some baby team in the Finals that didn't know how to play ball - MJ only faced seasoned, veteran teams, usually with prior Finals experience (1991 Lakers, 1992 Blazers, 1998 Jazz)...

And again, the Bulls opponents always had the ON-PAPER talent advantage headed into the series - it wasn't just the 1993 Suns mentioned earlier... The 1992 Blazers were perceived as a juggernaut and far more stacked on paper, with 4 multiple-time all-stars and a 1-time all-star - that's 5 all-star players.. But again, the Bulls' superior brand of basketball, built upon MJ's goat 36/7/7, offset the talent deficit.

The 1996 Sonics had one of the better Big 3's of all time with prime Payton, Kemp and 3-time all-star Detlef Schrempf, who was a 6-10, 3-point shooting point-forward..

They also had All-NBA defender Nate McMillan and Hersey Hawkins.. Again, this is superior on-paper talent than Pippen and the Bulls role players.. But once again, the Bulls won with their superior brand of basketball, built upon MJ's far superior stats to anyone else in the series.





why can't guys who aren't 1A also?


Why can't I require Lebron to perform as well as MJ, dominate like MJ and shoot as well as MJ to be considered anywhere near as good as MJ?

[Poochymama]

Could Lazeruss and 3ball be the same person?

They both spam relentlessly in very similar fashion and they both seem slightly insane.

3ball could be an alter ego of Laz who's purpose is to make people hate Jordan. Either that or split personalities.

[LAZERUSS]

Since Jordan single-handedly won six rings...he must have choked big time in his other nine seasons.

[tpols]

Since Jordan single-handedly won six rings...he must have choked big time in his other nine seasons.

It's actually proven in the 538 study that MJ's second threepeat help was the best help in modern history of basketball.. he had the most stacked team of all time basically.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's actually proven in the 538 study that MJ's second threepeat help was the best help in modern history of basketball.. he had the most stacked team of all time basically.

538 study? What the hell is that? lol

Jordan's Bulls weren't the most stacked of all-time (the 86 Celtics, 83 Sixers, and 85 Lakers were insanely deep), but unlike that idiot 3ball, most of us know he had a TON of help - especially on the defensive end. There's a reason the '96 Bulls are widely regarded as one of the greatest teams, in any sport, and it ain't just because of Mike.

[3ball]

It's actually proven in the 538 study that MJ's second threepeat help was the best help in modern history of basketball.. he had the most stacked team of all time basically.
The study didn't say that at all.

Nor is the study viable.. It doesn't account for the fact the production of players VARIES depending on who they are playing next to.

The study punishes MJ because the Paxson's game flourishes alongside him, while the MORE talented Chalmers' game falters alongside Lebron.

But put Chalmers alongside MJ, and he might play better like the less talented Paxson did.. Which means MJ's supporting cast is now better, based on the study.. gtfo

The funny thing is that these 3rd grade-level studies are probably done by guys with advanced degrees, wasting their lives.

[tpols]

The study didn't say that at all.

Nor is the study viable.. It doesn't account for the fact the production of players VARIES depending on who they are playing next to.

The study punishes MJ because the Paxson's game flourishes alongside him, while the MORE talented Chalmers' game falters alongside Lebron.

But put Chalmers alongside MJ, and he might play better like the less talented Paxson did.. Which means MJ's supporting cast is now better, based on the study.. gtfo

The funny thing is that these 3rd grade-level studies are probably done by guys with advanced degrees, wasting their lives.

kerr/Paxson had very little to do with the bulls overall talent rating.. he might have moved the needle like < 5%.

It was Pippens GOAT level defensive impact, signifigantly outproducing MJ in blocks, steals, d-rating ,and rebounds that accounts for most of the help. Rodman second for his defense, toughness, and insane rebounding/hustle (basically a supercharged, more intimidating Tristan Thompson :D ).. and then filled out with clutch euro scorer in kukoc, another lockdown defender in in Harper (basically a super charged iman shumpert), and the GOAT coach in his prime to promote proper chemistry.. that was what gave the bulls their talent rating.



You're talking paxson and chalmers lol..

[tpols]

538 study? What the hell is that? lol

Jordan's Bulls weren't the most stacked of all-time (the 86 Celtics, 83 Sixers, and 85 Lakers were insanely deep), but unlike that idiot 3ball, most of us know he had a TON of help - especially on the defensive end. There's a reason the '96 Bulls are widely regarded as one of the greatest teams, in any sport, and it ain't just because of Mike.

Its a study showing the support of teammates for first options since the early 80s..

Despite 3balls attempts at quoting pippens FG% to downgrade him in that run and ignoring all other facets of the game (while calling others "intellectually dishonest" :lol ), the study shows that MJ's team is tops on the list for help.


And its very intuitive.. all the crazy hakeem runs, dirks runs, some of lebrons poorer teams, all the Cinderella teams that won unexpectantly, they all had lower ratings while most of the traditional stacked teams were near the top. So it follows a nice trend and there's no reason the founders to have held bias against MJ.. not perfect obviously, but shatters all the BS that goes on around here about MJ carrying anything there..

[3ball]

The study didn't say that at all.

Nor is the study viable.. It doesn't account for the fact the production of players VARIES depending on who they are playing next to.

The study punishes MJ because the Paxson's game flourishes alongside him, while the MORE talented Chalmers' game falters alongside Lebron.

But put Chalmers alongside MJ, and he might play better like the less talented Paxson did.. Which means MJ's supporting cast is now better, based on the study.. gtfo

The funny thing is that these 3rd grade-level studies are probably done by guys with advanced degrees, wasting their lives.


The study punishes MJ for employing a style that allowed Pippen to play at 100% capacity alongside him (Pip averaged 21/8/7 on 51% in 1992, compared to 22/9/6 on 49% in 1994).

Meanwhile, the study REWARDS Lebron's style that literally CRATERED Love, Bosh and Wade's stats!!!!!!!!!!!

What a joke.. :roll:

But keep worshipping that 538 study... It's a joke for casual fans that don't know any better.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Stop being such a salty bitch. Dude was the 3rd option on the Cav's. Not to mention a 6 MPG drop in playing time. He did average the 2nd highest FG% of his career though.

wow you fuccing cuck you read my entire post and that was the only part you felt like responding to

and of course a first option goes to lebron's team and becomes the 3rd option and then gets his stats used as evidence for why lebron didn't have help but when people try to use those same stats to show how lebron negatively affects his teammates its "but but but but he's the 3rd option what do you expect"

make up your mind which excuse it is little boy

and its hilarious to see you defending bran after he threw your team away like they were trash and emasculated your favorite player by taking over his team and making sure Wade got 0 credit for anything they won then ditched his ass when Wade needed him most

:roll: :roll:

[tpols]

The study punishes MJ for employing a style that allowed Pippen to play at 100% capacity alongside him (Pip averaged 21/8/7 on 51% in 1992, compared to 22/9/6 on 49% in 1994).

Meanwhile, the study REWARDS Lebron's style that literally CRATERED Love, Bosh and Wade's stats!!!!!!!!!!!

What a joke.. :roll:

But keep worshipping that 538 study... It's a joke for casual fans that don't know any better.

never seen you bold exclamation out like that before.. :eek:


MJ was gifted his perfect compliment.. lord knows he wasn't winning shit with another scorer who wanted to do the same thing he did.. would've been a brawl on the court. :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE]The top five supporting casts of all time, according to 538, are below.
1. 1996 Bulls (Jordan)
2. 2013 Spurs (Duncan)
3. 1996 Sonics (Payton)
4. 2008 Celtics (Garnett)
5. 1998 Bulls (Jordan)
With three Michael Jordan teams in the top six, don

[tpols]

,,

yup.. look at all those teams, absolutely known for being stacked to the brim. And of course, MJ's team having a better talent rating in every year than the team they ended up defeating.

[aj1987]

wow you fuccing cuck you read my entire post and that was the only part you felt like responding to
Probably because I agree with the rest of your post, you retarded Kobe ****.


and of course a first option goes to lebron's team and becomes the 3rd option and then gets his stats used as evidence for why lebron didn't have help but when people try to use those same stats to show how lebron negatively affects his teammates its "but but but but he's the 3rd option what do you expect"
What the **** are you even talking about? Idiot. Watch the games. Bosh's stats not only suffered, but he was horrendous defensively. Dude also shot like shit against good frontlines. 0 points on 0-5 shooting in a game 7?

As I pointed out, the reduction in minutes and the number of shots decreased his stats. His FG% went up. Something which you chose to ignore. Context, dumbass.


and its hilarious to see you defending bran after he threw your team away like they were trash and emasculated your favorite player by taking over his team and making sure Wade got 0 credit for anything they won then ditched his ass when Wade needed him most
:biggums:

Stop melting down. You'll find someone else to ride after Kobe's done.

[sdot_thadon]

yup.. look at all those teams, absolutely known for being stacked to the brim. And of course, MJ's team having a better talent rating in every year than the team they ended up defeating.
Yeah, according to the study Mj never once entered the finals with an inferior team either. While having most of the best supporting casts of the top 10 goat list.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Probably because I agree with the rest of your post, you retarded Kobe ****.


What the **** are you even talking about? Idiot. Watch the games. Bosh's stats not only suffered, but he was horrendous defensively. Dude also shot like shit against good frontlines. 0 points on 0-5 shooting in a game 7?

As I pointed out, the reduction in minutes and the number of shots decreased his stats. His FG% went up. Something which you chose to ignore. Context, dumbass.


:biggums:

Stop melting down. You'll find someone else to ride after Kobe's done.

you're always melting down in your post, trying typing a paragraph without cursing you ignorant fool.. you have the composure of a 12 year old girl

:roll: :roll:

[Megabox!]

I thought it was well established by pretty much anyone with a brain that MJ's championship teams were some of the most stacked teams in league history? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

I thought it was well established by pretty much anyone with a brain that MJ's championship teams were some of the most stacked teams in league history? :confusedshrug:
Only a fool thinks Pippen >


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Shaq or Kobe


I can't even include Horace Grant on that list - he isn't anywhere near those guys.

The 538 list is BS - it's a virtual impossibility that MJ's Bulls, Duncan's Spurs or Payton's Sonics have BETTER supporting casts than Magic's Lakers or Bird's Celtics... It's insane.

The 538 list merely shows which teams played the best AS A TEAM, so supporting players were playing to capacity and don't underperform.. i.e. Chalmers would likely play more to capacity and underperform less alongside MJ, just like the less talented Paxson did..

The list punishes MJ for employing a style that allows teammates to play to capacity, while the list REWARDS Lebron for cratering his teammates production.. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
.

[rmt]

Regarding this 538 study (from a Spurs pov):

1. No way is 2003 team better than 2005, 2015, 2007, 2006
2. No way is 2012 team better than 2013, 2007, 2006

Wouldn't put much store in that study.

[aj1987]

you're always melting down in your post, trying typing a paragraph without cursing you ignorant fool.. you have the composure of a 12 year old girl

:roll: :roll:
The irony. :oldlol:

Getting REKT in every thread you're posting in.

[Uncle Drew]

This thread is hilarious.

[sportjames23]

Triple doubles, LBJ in a landslide.


Rings and Finals MVP, MJ in a landslide.

[Uncle Drew]

Laz with the 6600 word essay :applause:

[sportjames23]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow

PPG drop off from RS to the PO's

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b6/7b/7e/b67b7e24f9204694f295790bc6a3ffe3.jpg

[Lebron23]

It looks like the rest of the Gang are back.

[sportjames23]

It's also amazing how he dominated an era filled with the deepest talent pool/teams/HOFs of any era the league has seen...



Next.


Shit, how many HOFers did MJ deny rings?

Barkley
KJ
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller
Mullin
Wilkins
Kemp
Payton (though he got one years later after MJ retired)
Drexler (got his with the Rockets when MJ first came back to the Bulls)

I don't know of anyone else on the GOAT list that can claim this.

[sportjames23]

Laz melting down HARD. :roll:


I mean damn.:lol

This dude posting his college thesis and fools here talk shit about 3ball? Lazeruss on some young lion type essays here.:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Shit, how many HOFers did MJ deny rings?

Barkley
KJ
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller
Mullin
Wilkins
Kemp
Payton (though he got one years later after MJ retired)
Drexler (got his with the Rockets when MJ first came back to the Bulls)

I don't know of anyone else on the GOAT list that can claim this.
Umm:
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony
Vince Carter
Derrick rose
Tracy Mcgrady
Joe johnson
Deron Williams
Chris Webber
Amare Stoudemire
Pau gasol (got his years earlier with lakers)


Paul George (depending on what you think about him)
Gilbert Arenas (same)

**I'm sure kobe has a pretty decent denial list too

[HurricaneKid]

You're missing the obvious - the Cavs assembled a supporting cast that won 66 and 61 games behind Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.


The level of intellectual dishonesty in your posting is absurd. Rodman/Grant and Pip were mediocre overrated players but Z and Mo Will, those guys were all world, even though they struggled to be league avg players without LeBron in.

In 2009 when the Cavs won 66 games, a top 10 record EVER, the Cavs were -5.9 points/100 possessions in the 900 minutes (thats almost a full college season) he was off the court. Thats a bottom 4 team in the league transformed into a top 10 RS team.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM

[Rocketswin2013]

The level of intellectual dishonesty in your posting is absurd. Rodman/Grant and Pip were mediocre overrated players but Z and Mo Will, those guys were all world, even though they struggled to be league avg players without LeBron in.

In 2009 when the Cavs won 66 games, a top 10 record EVER, the Cavs were -5.9 points/100 possessions in the 900 minutes (thats almost a full college season) he was off the court. Thats a bottom 4 team in the league transformed into a top 10 RS team.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM
IIRC, in 2 of Cleveland

[chips93]

In 2009 when the Cavs won 66 games, a top 10 record EVER, the Cavs were -5.9 points/100 possessions in the 900 minutes (thats almost a full college season) he was off the court. Thats a bottom 4 team in the league transformed into a top 10 RS team.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM

Thats a crazy stat

[sdot_thadon]

The level of intellectual dishonesty in your posting is absurd. Rodman/Grant and Pip were mediocre overrated players but Z and Mo Will, those guys were all world, even though they struggled to be league avg players without LeBron in.

In 2009 when the Cavs won 66 games, a top 10 record EVER, the Cavs were -5.9 points/100 possessions in the 900 minutes (thats almost a full college season) he was off the court. Thats a bottom 4 team in the league transformed into a top 10 RS team.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM
Good stuff.

[rmt]

Umm:
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony
Vince Carter
Derrick rose
Tracy Mcgrady
Joe johnson
Deron Williams
Chris Webber
Amare Stoudemire
Pau gasol (got his years earlier with lakers)


Paul George (depending on what you think about him)
Gilbert Arenas (same)

**I'm sure kobe has a pretty decent denial list too

C'mon - this list is ridiculous - Tracy McGrady - who had 0 points in 14 minutes in the entire Finals in his last year of the NBA? Gasol - who was injured? Webber - in his old age? Lots of stretching

MJ > Lebron. The eye test says so and the stats/rings back it up.

[3ball]

In 2009 when the Cavs won 66 games, a top 10 record EVER, the Cavs were -5.9 points/100 possessions in the 900 minutes (thats almost a full college season) he was off the court.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM


It doesn't matter what they did with Lebron off the court - any team will have far worse stats when their star is off the court.

The reality is that in 2009, the supporting cast added sufficient help ON TOP of Lebron's 28/8/7 that the Cavs won a whopping 66 games - that's a super-ton of help.

By comparison, MJ's supporting cast only added enough help on top of MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.. Not much help.

[3ball]

It doesn't matter what they did with Lebron off the court - any team will have far worse stats when their star is off the court.

The reality is that in 2009, the supporting cast added sufficient help ON TOP of Lebron's 28/8/7 that the Cavs won a whopping 66 games - that's a super-ton of help.

By comparison, MJ's supporting cast only added enough help on top of MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.. Not much help.



Sigh....


http://img.pandawhale.com/post-40544-Brad-Pitt-is-there-no-one-else-Dkiy.gif

[sdot_thadon]

C'mon - this list is ridiculous - Tracy McGrady - who had 0 points in 14 minutes in the entire Finals in his last year of the NBA? Gasol - who was injured? Webber - in his old age? Lots of stretching

MJ > Lebron. The eye test says so and the stats/rings back it up.
Sorry if it was over your head, it was done purposely because he did the same thing.

[toneloc103]

Jordan joins to a 27-55 team...and can only get them to 38-44 in his rookie season. And in the first round of the playoffs, he is badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss. In the clinching loss he shoots 6-16 from the field.

In MJ's second season, his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42. His Bulls are swept in the first round again, and in the clinching loss, Jordan shoots a horrific 9-30 from the field. And overall, he shoots .417 in the series. Oh, and his second best player, Charles Oakley, hangs a 20-15 series, and they still can't win a game.

In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record. But, when MJ faces the Bad Boys, as would be the case all four years in a row against them...an offensive decline. In the regular season, he puts up a 35 ppg .535 year. Against the Bad Boys... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.

In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460. With the series tied, 2-2, MJ QUITS on his team in game five (taking EIGHT shots), and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.

In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27. Jordan has Pippen with his 17-7-5 .489; Grant with his 13-8 .523; Cartwright with his 11-7 .488; and Paxson with his 10-4 .516. Their bench is also improved with King, Hodges, Armstrong, and Perdue. BUT, with MJ shooting .467 in the series (down from his regular season .526), the Bulls again are knocked off in a game seven.

How did the Bulls FINALLY get over the hump? In the 90-91 ECF's, while MJ's numbers decline against the crumbling 50-32 Pistons...Pippen puts up a 22-8-5-3-2 series; Grant puts up a 14-8 .690 series; and Cartwright puts up a 10-5 .591 series, while the Bulls bench outplays Detroit's...in a 4-0 sweep. Then in the Finals, and against a shell of "Showtime" Jordan's cast of "scrubs" as 3ball would call them, wipe the floor with Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast. Pippen hangs a 21-9-7 series, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.

How good was Jordan's surrounding cast from that '91 season, on? MJ quits after the '93 season. The Bulls scramble to find replacements, and wind up starting Pete Myers in his place. They decline all the way from a 57-25 record, down to a 55-27 record. Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games. Think about that. Had Pippen and Grant been healthy all season, and the Bulls likely win 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would have had HCA. As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. BUT, they won ALL THREE games at home (and lost another by ONE POINT in NY.) The Knicks go on to lose a seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Horace Grant leaves that Chicago team (and immediately takes a 50-32 Magic team to a 60-22 record BTW.) So now Pippen, without BOTH Jordan and Grant...somehow takes the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Jordan, seeing that he could sneak in another ring with rushes back to play the last 17 games. The Bulls go 13-4 in those 17 games, BUT, had Grant played, and based on his impact with the '94 Bulls, they would have gone 12-5 with HIM.

So, Jordan is basically joining a 55-27 team, that has added 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, and replacing Grant...and guess what? His impact is even LESS than what the '94 Bulls had withOUT him. They are beaten in the ECSF's 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and in the series clinching loss, Jordan once again let's his team down, with a 24 point game, on 8-19 shooting (meanwhile Pippen hangs a 26-12-6 8-15 game in the loss.)

The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman. Think about this...with Rodman replacing Grant, the Bulls added not only Jordan, but Harper, to a team that had gone 55-27 withOUT MJ. Is it any wonder that they would go on to a three-peat with THAT roster? BTW, that roster is so overwhelming, that they easily win three straight Finals, all with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and a horrific .415!

It was a lot, but nice read bro

[3ball]

:facepalm

[FKAri]

3ball, Lazerus, Euroleague and Jeff are the same person.

#TheMoreYouKnow

[3ball]

Rookie Jordan only increased the Bulls wins from 27 to 38


Nothing wrong with that... 38 wins was playoff-caliber in that murderous conference.

Otoh, Lebron could not get his team to playoff caliber in his first two seasons and missed the playoffs both years.





And in the first round of the playoffs, MJ was badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief in a 3-1 series loss.


MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% TS against the 59-win Bucks, their 2nd-ranked defense, and the reigning DPOY, Moncrief.

That's the GOAT performance for a rookie in his FIRST playoff series.





In MJ's second season (1986), his Bulls are swept in the first round. In the clinching loss, he puts up 19 points on 8-18 shooting.


MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 51% in that series and broke the all-time playoff scoring record (63 points).

He gets a break for falling off in the final game - Lebron has never put up numbers like that, or faced that type of singular focus from the defense.. Lebron breaks down all the time and even has 8 and 7 point games in the Finals.





In MJ's third season, he leads the league in scoring, but his team can only go 40-42.


That's how tough the conference was, and how much worse Jordan's supporting cast was:

Jordan's 37/6/6 on 48% only got 40 wins in 1987, while Lebron's inferior 28/8/7 on 49% got 66 wins in 2009.

This means that Lebron's supporting cast provided enough help ON TOP of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games.. Otoh, Jordan's supporting cast only added enough help on top of the 37/6/6 to win 40 games - MJ simply had far less help.





In that season (1987), his Bulls are swept in the first round again


They were expected to get swept - they were the 8 seed going against the 1 seed.. But MJ still averaged 36/7/6.





In his 87-88 season, the Bulls add Grant and Pippen, and the results are immediate...a 50-32 record.


Pippen's averages as a rookie were 8/4/2.. Grant's were 8/5.

That's why MJ needed to have the greatest individual season anyone's ever had in 1988:

scoring leader at 35/6/6 on 54%...... and.... DPOY... That's the best offensive and defensive player in the same season.





In the 1988 regular season, MJ puts up a 35 ppg .535 year.

But against the Bad Boys in playoffs... 27 ppg on a .491. His Bulls are blown-out by Detroit, 4-1, and in the clinching loss, he hangs a 25 point game on 10-22 shooting.


Is this supposed to be a BAD series for MJ?

If Lebron averages 27 ppg on 49% in the 2007 and 2011 Finals, he's 4/6 instead of 2/6 right now, and I'd be agreeing that he might have a chance to pass MJ.

Moving on...





In the '88-89 post-season, Jordan again declines against the Bad Boys. His scoring drops from 32.5 ppg down to 29.7 ppg, and his FG% drops like a lead balloon from .538 down to .460....

and the result...a 4-2 series loss to the Pistons.


Bulls won 47 games in 1989.. The playoff cut was 42 wins.. Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the Bulls miss playoffs and are a lottery team.

But with MJ, they make ECF and take the champs to 6 games.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, just like Lebron did in 2015..

Of course, MJ carried his lottery team the entire regular season, whereas Lebron benefited from having a healthy Love and Kyrie the entire season and didn't have to carry a lotter-level team until mid-playoffs.. Also, Lebron's playoff stats were worse than MJ's:

Lebron averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.





In '89-90, the Bulls have now amassed as much talent as the 59-23 Pistons, and go 55-27.


Pistons had 3 all-stars - Isiah, Dumars and a peak DPOY Dennis Rodman.. Whereas, the the Bulls only 2.

Pistons also have a FAR deeper team... Mark Aguirre comes off the bench along with Vinnie Johnson and John Salley.. I don't even know who was on the Bulls bench.





But again in 1990, the Bulls are knocked off in a game seven.


Pippen cost the Bulls Game 7, which actually cost the Bulls the CHAMPIONSHIP THAT YEAR:

The reality is that the Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.





Magic's declining and injury-riddled cast in 1991 vs. Chicago Bulls


Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991... In the Finals, he averaged 19/7/13 on 60% TS... Same as the RS...

Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 too... He was the Lakers leading scorer in RS, and also the Finals, where he averaged 19 ppg on 47%, while playing 40 mpg.





Pippen's stats are 21-9-7 in 1991 Finals, while Grant pummels the Laker front line with a 15-8 .627 series.


And both are outplayed by Divac's 18/9 and 2.4 blk on 56% fg.

And also Perkins 17/9 with 1.4 blk... Perkins and Divac's production was in addition to the aforementioned Magic (19/7/13) and Worthy (19 ppg on 47%).. This is easily more help than MJ had.





Oh, and Pippen and Grant collectively miss 22 games in 1994


Without MJ there to carry the majority of the load, it's no surprise that Pippen and Grant broke down.





When MJ retires in 1994, the Bulls still win 55 without him and make 2nd Round.


The Bulls needed MJ to lead them to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him.

Of course, before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8..

But with MJ, they made the ECF and went 6 games with the champs - this is the goat impact on a bad team - lottery to 6 games with the champs.

Of course, MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact is the goat impact on a decent team - MJ verified this goat impact in his first full season back, when he led the Bulls to a championship and eventualy 3-peat.. It can't get more clear-cut than that - 3-peat with MJ... 2nd Round without... back to 3-peat with MJ





As it was, they would lose a close seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks.


The Bulls were down 2-0 in that series, and if Kukoc misses his walk-off game winner in Game 3, the Bulls go down 3-0 and are likely swept.

Regardless, they lost in the 2nd Round team without MJ, which is pure shit compared to being a 3-peat dynasty with him.





The Bulls realize that they have no hope for winning a title without an elite PF, so they ADD HOFer Rodman.


MJ won with Horace Grant at PF, who was nowhere near elite - Horace averaged 11/8 for his career, which were his EXACT averages alongside MJ in regular season and playoffs from 1988-1993, or from 1991-1993 (just the championship years)..

Horace was simply an 11/8 player - if it wasn't for MJ, he would be one of thousands of 11/8 players we've never heard of.

Also, Rodman was 35 years old when he played for the Bulls - his all-star and dpoy days were LONG GONE by the time he joined the Bulls..

He only averaged 5/11 on 41% in the playoffs from 1996-1998, including 3/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. That's part of the reason MJ's 1997 and 1998 playoffs were so consistently heroic..

[sdot_thadon]

Also, Rodman was 35 years old when he played for the Bulls - his all-star and dpoy days were LONG GONE by the time he joined the Bulls..

He only averaged 5/11 on 41% in the playoffs from 1996-1998, including 3/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. That's part of the reason MJ's 1997 and 1998 playoffs were so consistently heroic..
You keep undermining Rodman's impact here when it's even been shown he was at least considered a threat for fmvp in 96. That's weak.

in 96 worm was:
all defensive 1st team
1st offensive rebounding
9th defensive rebounding
2nd total rebounding
1st rebounds per game
1st off rebounding %
1st def rebounding %
1st total rebounding %
6th def rating
7th dbpm
34 yrs old

97:
1st off rebounds
8th def rebounds
3rd total rebounds
1st rpg
1st off rebounding %
1st def rebounding %
1st total rebounding %
6th def rating
35 yrs old

98:
2nd off rebounds
1st def rebounds
1st total rebounds
1st in rpg
2nd off rebounding %
1st def rebounding %
1st total rebounding %
4th def rating
3rd def win shares
8th dbpm
36 yrs old

Also in 96 he led in basically every aspect of rebounding in the playoffs. In 97 his numbers dipped a bit, he also played less minutes in that run as well. In 98 he didn't lead in raw numbers but his advanced numbers show he did well in the postseason.

Fun fact:

Over those 3 "washed up" bulls years Dennis had 36 20+ rebound games.
Kg: 33
Duncan: 26
Love: 17

.......for their CAREERS.

[HurricaneKid]

It doesn't matter what they did with Lebron off the court - any team will have far worse stats when their star is off the court.

The reality is that in 2009, the supporting cast added sufficient help ON TOP of Lebron's 28/8/7 that the Cavs won a whopping 66 games - that's a super-ton of help.

By comparison, MJ's supporting cast only added enough help on top of MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.. Not much help.

Thats a STUPID thing to say. Without MJ the Bulls were a Championship calibur squad. Without LeBron the Cavs were among the worst teams in the NBA. But somehow, your calculus on the matter is that because LeBron dragged that sorry squad to a top 10 record ever the supporting team must have been good even though every measurement without LeBron points to a horrific supporting cast. I bet you suck at math and science. The leaps you take in reason are untenable.

You are either intellectually dishonest or just a troll. I don't know which is worse and I don't know why I keep responding to you.

[3ball]

Thats a STUPID thing to say.


It's a fact - teams fare much worse when their star isn't on the court - so it's not stupid.

Unless you think it's a stupid fact.. I guess that would be subjective.. :confusedshrug:





Without MJ the Bulls were a Championship calibur squad.


This is false - the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ.. And this was only possible after MJ led them to a 3-peat first, which gave the team 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork.

And heck, the Bulls were down 2-0 in the 2nd Round series where they were eliminated - they would've gone down 3-0 if Kukoc misses the walk-off GW in Game 3... After that, they likely get swept, but Kukoc's miraculous shot turned the series around and gave the Bulls hope.

Show me which part of the above is not fact - highlight the exact part that is false.





Without LeBron the Cavs were among the worst teams in the NBA.


The Cavs didn't just lose Lebron in 2011 - they lost 2 other starters too - Mo Williams and Shaq... They also lost Varejao, Zydrunas and Delonte.

So you should re-phrase your statement - without Lebron, Mo Williams, Shaq, Varejao, Zydrunas and Delonte, the 2011 Cavs were among the worst teams in the NBA... There.. Fixed.





(But forget Lebron's massive underachievements as the #1 seed in 2009 and 2010, because 2015 is even more revealing)


In 2015, the Cavs got injured in the playoffs, which turned the Cavs into a lottery team (without Lebron).. So Lebron took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs..

This is exactly what MJ did in 1989.. The 47-win Bulls miss the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8...

However, MJ carried his lottery team the entire regular season, whereas Lebron benefited from having a healthy Love and Kyrie the entire season and didn't have to carry a lottery-level team until mid-playoffs.. Also, Lebron's playoff stats were worse than MJ's:

Lebron averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
.

[superteamtheory]

whereas the Celtics were 4 years removed from being champs, post-Garnett injury, and old.. Not sure how you get past these facts.

with more facts like a 23 yr. Bron with a non-60 win Cavs roster took those Celts to 7 games in the best fight anybody put up against them that year and dunked all over pre-injured K.G.'s head like with a flying ninja kick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCxSqSXGDY



You're missing the obvious - the Cavs assembled a supporting cast that won 66 and 61 games behind Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.

The MVP voters those years didn't miss the obvious thing you are / always will... Which was that this supporting cast simply wasn't as good as they may have seemed on paper. (Tho to me there's nothing impressive about that roster on paper either. Same with the 2010 club. Not sure why there would be. All the guys that could be important in another year are washed up -- Big Z, Jamison, Shaq...)

MJ is at least playing with a HOFamer in his prime.

And...

Dr. J on why he wasn't super-impressed with the Bulls in late 90's: "They have 2 of the 3 best American players, they have the best Croatian player ever, they have the best Australian player ever..."


That's BS... You would only choose the Bulls in hindsight because they won and showed they were the better team.

It's not a case of hindsight bias so much as having no possible bias to approach it from, unlike you who have very obvious emotional ties to Jordan's run...

Unlike you, I was a kid when the Bulls were winning so all I can share is my immediate reactions (still more or less consistent with my thoughts now) when I first read about MJ's not-as-epic-as-I'd-hoped championships...

"Just Drexler? Just Ewing? Just Barkley? Just Payton? Just Miller? No other HOF superstar players on any of those teams?"

The only victories that really impressed me were the Pistons (less so if it had been a close series but because it was a sweep), the Lakers (even with an old Magic & Worthy and no Kareem and there it is) and the Jazz back to back in older age... The 97 Jazz victory is his masterpiece. ... The 96 Magic sweep is impressive too I guess but Horace Grant was a key piece of the Magic and injured that series.

The additional all-stars, or HOF coaches, depth etc. on those teams explain how they made it as far as they did (Finals) and/or went as far as they did with the Bulls ... Without that support it would have been a joke making my point even more obvious.

While I can understand your point about the depth of some of the teams he played (they were all great teams near the finish line), the crucial observation is a pretty simple one to grasp: He only beat 4 teams (Pistons, Lakers, twice Jazz) with multiple (2) HOFamers on the roster. (Unless I've missed one somewhere.)

LeBron has already done that 3x at least -- possibly 4 if Westbrook and/or Harden make the HOF someday -- which is a far more meaningful stat than the ESPN propaganda 50 win teams stat that doesn't take into consideration the depth or ability on the winning team's roster..

Now, to be a selfrighteous pompous dick like you... Not sure how you get past these facts...

(Kobe's no doubt done it more than both but Kobe had another top 10 player in prime on the roster.)


Also, the 1997 and 1998 Utah Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (by far his most talented and deep roster ever) TWICE... Then they dismantled Popovich's 56-win Duncan/Robinson team in 5 games..

Your bias and tunnel vision doesn't allow you to consider the multiple storylines...

Duncan was a rookie, there was only so much turnaround going to happen with those Spurs at that time.. It just wasn't their year.. the next year, however, they won it all! Jazz meanwhile slowly but surely faded... The Jazz were a great team, sure, but if they were as great as you're making them out to be they would have had rings in MJ-less 99... They had 2 HOFamers and as a result, with some strong backing (depth, coach) eventually made the Finals 2x before a true rival for the Bulls (Duncan's Spurs or MVP Shaq + more mature Kobe combo) came a bit too late..

The Lakers were considered a massively underachieving failure during this stretch -- with an improved (vs. fan voted allstar) Kobe, they also lost to Robinson and sophomore Duncan the next year, it wasn't just the Jazz that were doing this to them.. They were talented but had issues and needed a vision..

It was this that lead to the hiring of Phil Jackson who then righted the ship because of his greatness as a coach, as evident with the Bulls and later the Kobe Lakers as well.



MJ only faced seasoned, veteran teams, usually with prior Finals experience (1991 Lakers, 1992 Blazers, 1998 Jazz)...

3Bull, you're just so full of shit and bias it's unbullievable...

91 Lakers (on their last legs) and the Pistons I'll grant you ... but 92 Blazers had 1 Finals under their belt -- same as the Bulls, there was no advantage there -- and the Jazz were in their 2nd Finals vs. the 3rd for that Bulls squad and Jordan and Pippen in their 6th ...

The Suns and Sonics were one-offs, the Knicks and Pacers hadn't made Finals when they made their pushes -- the best any teams ever did vs. 90's Bulls ... so there's not necessarily any dramatic correlation between experience and results, even if I'd agree experience is a plus and does factor in.. as it probably did with the Bulls' various 92-98 victories... hell, even 91 vs. Pistons, they were playing them for the 4th time in a row.. enough warmups?


Why can't I require Lebron to perform as well as MJ, dominate like MJ and shoot as well as MJ to be considered anywhere near as good as MJ?

That sentence just answers itself... Even if he did dominate as much and shoot as well he still, to you, wouldn't be considered MJ's equal... even if he did the exact identical thing he'd just begin to be "anywhere near as good"... You are insanely harsh with your requirements -- LeBron doesn't shoot as high % as MJ or score quite as much, okay fine, but he is the best most dominant player of his generation and that alone should be enough for him to be considered "near as great" -- as in a fellow top 10-12 player at least -- even if MJ is significantly greater..

There is no conspiracy in this particular case, sports journalists just sincerely recognize the greatness of LBJ and this is why they give him his credit.. You know who else recognizes it? Guys like Shaq, Kobe, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and even...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2014/04/28/lebron-james-michael-jordan-hug-it-out-after-heat-sweep/

It's only haters like you that don't show any respect.

At the end of the day tho, if the only point you have to make is "Jordan was ****ing amazing" then hey I guess agree... But you seem to think arguing something as easy as that makes you some sort of intellectual badass.

To me, the far more heroic thing is all the guys on here arguing in defence of some of these guys like LBJ, Wilt, even a Barkley and countless others who were better than the angry mob and puritan extremists like you want to believe..

[HurricaneKid]

It's a fact - teams fare much worse when their star isn't on the court - so it's not stupid..

Except, as per usual, you are wrong. Here are the last 5 years for OKC without KD:
+.1
+2.0
+4.1
+5.2
+4.6

LeBron, in 10 years (and boundless "stacked" teams) has had one team that was better than their opponents without him in the game. And even then it was by .2pts/100 poss.

MJs last Bulls team outscored their opponents by 120 points with MJ out (only on/off data set available outside of Wiz years). Depending on how many OT min were played that means the Bulls were ~7.8 points better than their opponents with MJ out. On Avg, thats a top 3-4 team in the NBA.



This is false - the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ.. And this was only possible after MJ led them to a 3-peat first, which gave the team 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork.

Show me which part of the above is not fact - highlight the exact part that is false.


You have now jumped the shark. You are crediting MJ for the success of a team he didn't play on. For a single minute.

Is the Bucks resurgence due to Jack Sikma or Ray Allen? I have trouble with your "logic".