What separated MJ from Kobe?

[ClipperRevival]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?

[Fallen Angel]

I agree with everything but #2.

Kobe is extremely fluid in the post and on his jumpshot.

[You Cant Ban Me]

1 had his own swag the other copied his whole game from another player.We all know a clone will never be as strong as the orginal

[ClipperRevival]

I agree with everything but #2.

Kobe is extremely fluid in the post and on his jumpshot.

I meant fluid as in fluidity of movement. Like the ability to flip your hips and quickly change directions. MJ moved like a 6'1", explosive PG. His movements were just otherworldly for a 6'6" guard. Kobe was fluid too but couldn't match MJ's fluidity of movement.

I see what you're saying but I'm talking about something else.

[Asukal]

Superior decision making and mental toughness. The man would find motivation out of imaginary slights.

[Braincells]

In some interview, Kobe talked about his game being "limited" by not being able to palm the ball. It certainly would have added another dimension to his game and he'd have his way with defenders. He definitely relied more on skillset and fundamentals than MJ. He has the best footwork I've ever seen.

I would also argue MJ was a once in a generation kind of athlete, while there are more "Kobe" level athletes in the NBA. Even though Kobe had some god given athletic ability, he worked at perfecting it more than MJ. His work ethic is obviously something that propelled him to top 10 status.

[guy]

Physical tools, better IQ/decisionmaker, more clutch/mentally tougher/better big game player, better leader, etc.There's a lot more to it then just physical tools.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Motor is one of the biggest things. Kobe could play all league defense and offense but usually not at the same time consistently like MJ. His motor and conditioning to play allowed him to be elite on both ends more often while it was more isolated with Kobe and in his best offensive seasons like 06 and 07 he wasn't playing his best D. While MJ could average 35/6/6 but with top level perimeter D

[ClipperRevival]

Motor is one of the biggest things. Kobe could play all league defense and offense but usually not at the same time consistently like MJ. His motor and conditioning to play allowed him to be elite on both ends more often while it was more isolated with Kobe and in his best offensive seasons like 06 and 07 he wasn't playing his best D. While MJ could average 35/6/6 but with top level perimeter D

Absolutely. I missed this one. MJ's stamina/endurance was off the charts. There are tales of him playing poker all night long and sleeping all but a few hours and dominating the next day. The 1992 Dream Team documentary talked about how MJ just never got tired.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

FG% and baseball instead of soccer

[DCL]

very original topic

[kennethgriffin]

theres things jordan did better. theres things kobe did better



kobe fans can admit this. jordan fans can't

one side is still just as bitter, insecure, unfulfilled as the man himself. the other side is just as alpha/confident as the man himself


one guy freely admits the other would beat him in a 1 on 1

the other guy at age 21 said he'd kick the other guys ass in a 1 on 1

/thread

[ClipperRevival]

theres things jordan did better. theres things kobe did better



kobe fans can admit this. jordan fans can't

one side is still just as bitter, insecure, unfulfilled as the man himself. the other side is just as alpha/confident as the man himself


one guy freely admits the other would beat him in a 1 on 1

the other guy at age 21 said he'd kick the other guys ass in a 1 on 1

/thread

And what advantages did Kobe have over MJ? I'm asking seriously, not to bait. Let's keep it constructive.

[ShawkFactory]

And what advantages did Kobe have over MJ? I'm asking seriously, not to bait. Let's keep it constructive.
Kobe was better at taking contested jumpers, and possibly better at making them because he was forced to shoot them more often. The things you listed about Jordan in the OP made it so he didn't have to take ridiculous shots like Kobe did.

[Indian guy]

1) Superior athleticism - 2 equally skilled players but one of 'em is quicker, faster, more explosive and jumps higher. That makes a notable difference.

2) Shot selection/basketball IQ. MJ was better at functioning within a set offense and finding/recognizing higher percentage opportunities for himself. He was the more patient/cerebral/instinctive player and thus, more consistent. It wasn't just athleticism that made him better because 00-05 Kobe is more athletic than some versions of Bulls-MJ, but the only version of Kobe from that span that truly measures up is the '03 one.

Athleticism and bball IQ are really it. I don't get the bigger hands obsession. Phil said it so Kobe fans love to parrot it, but I don't know what advantage that gives MJ besides slightly superior finishing ability at the rim. It simply isn't major enough to pin it as some big difference maker.

[Rooster]

Better shot selection and leadership.

[3ball]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?


#4 can't be overstated... I don't think it's possible (or highly unlikely at least) for the GOAT to NOT have massive hands.

I think it's that much of an advantage and takes a player's ability to finish around the rim and on defenders to the next level...

It gives a guard like MJ or wing like Dr. J, the ability to finish with touch over defenders at the rim the same way big men do - guys like bynum, shaq, webber, etc.

I have big hands, and I played ball... My ability would've been completely different without big hands - I'm not even sure I would've enjoyed playing as much.
.

[ClipperRevival]

Kobe was better at taking contested jumpers, and possibly better at making them because he was forced to shoot them more often. The things you listed about Jordan in the OP made it so he didn't have to take ridiculous shots like Kobe did.

Agreed. Kobe's advantages I would say:

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, outside shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)
4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly
5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.

[ClipperRevival]

#4 can't be overstated... I don't think it's possible (or highly unlikely at least) for the GOAT to NOT have massive hands.

I think it's that much of an advantage and takes a player's ability to finish around the rim and on defenders to the next level...

It gives a guard like MJ or wing like Dr. J, the ability to finish with touch over defenders at the rim the same way big men do - guys like bynum, shaq, webber, etc.

I have big hands, and I played ball... My ability would've been completely different without big hands - I'm not even sure I would've enjoyed playing as much.
.

Yup. When you combine huge hands along with the ability to hang in the air, the ability to jump off one or both feet along with his quickness and off the charts explosiveness, you can see why a guy like MJ was a master at finishing at the rim. Even if the defender was right there, he can do things to change the outcome in a variety of ways.

[Dragonyeuw]

-Shot selection is the most obvious to me. Kobe is often credited for crazy shot-making ability, but MJ really didn't need to take alot of those shots. Created space better to set himself up for better looks

- MJ used his body more( shoulder shakes and shimmies, fake one way/ go the other, show the ball palm) to get defenders off balance. Kobe, coming up during the and-1 era, used the dribble more.

- MJ more often than not made his move right right away as opposed to over-dribbling or holding onto the ball too long before making a move. This meant the defense reacted to him moreso than him reacting to it.

- Overall more explosive leaper and in-air creativity. Jumped high enough and hung long enough to see what the defense would do before manufacturing a shot around the rim

- More consistent in terms of how he approached the game night in, night out. Easier for roleplaying teammates to adapt to as a result

- MJ 'in the zone' is pretty much the same player, he just makes more shots when 'hot'. Kobe 'in the zone' is like a 48 minute heat-check from every possible spot inside the half-court line.

To me the difference is obvious, but not huge. Kobe was every bit as skilled and superior in a few ways, but MJ employed his skills in a smarter fashion, making for a more consistent player, better game management from higher IQ, better at reading the flow of the game and when to push the accelerator.

[JohnMax]

I agree with everything but #2.

Kobe is extremely fluid in the post and on his jumpshot.

Kobe just has a smaller body which gives him more flexibility. However all his body movements are much slower.

[Dragonyeuw]

Agreed. Kobe's advantages I would say:

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, outside shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)
4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly
5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.

On that point Kobe was probably more unpredictable, in that some shots you as a defender aren't even expecting him to take. Compare that to MJ, when he got hot he was pretty much taking the same shots he normally takes, just makes them at a higher clip. That, and the difference in Kobe's ability to get hotter from deep, are the offensive differences. Night in, night out, Jordan was a more consistent scorer and that shows in the averages.

[ClipperRevival]

-Shot selection is the most obvious to me. Kobe is often credited for crazy shot-making ability, but MJ really didn't need to take alot of those shots. Created space better to set himself up for better looks

- MJ used his body more( shoulder shakes and shimmies, fake one way/ go the other, show the ball palm) to get defenders off balance. Kobe, coming up during the and-1 era, used the dribble more.

- MJ more often than not made his move right right away as opposed to over-dribbling or holding onto the ball too long before making a move. This meant the defense reacted to him moreso than him reacting to it.

- Overall more explosive leaper and in-air creativity. Jumped high enough and hung long enough to see what the defense would do before manufacturing a shot around the rim

- More consistent in terms of how he approached the game night in, night out. Easier for roleplaying teammates to adapt to as a result

- MJ 'in the zone' is pretty much the same player, he just makes more shots when 'hot'. Kobe 'in the zone' is like a 48 minute heat-check from every possible spot inside the half-court line.

To me the difference is obvious, but not huge. Kobe was every bit as skilled and superior in a few ways, but MJ employed his skills in a smarter fashion, making for a more consistent player, better game management from higher IQ, better at reading the flow of the game and when the push the accelerator.

:applause: And regarding the part in red, MJ didn't have to dance around because of his quickness. He was usually a jab step and explode type of guy. And that was enough to lose most defenders. Kobe didn't have MJ's quickness so he had to do more dribbling and dancing to lose his defender.

[ClipperRevival]

On that point Kobe was probably more unpredictable, in that some shots you as a defender aren't even expecting him to take. Compare that to MJ, when he got hot he was pretty much taking the same shots he normally takes, just makes them at a higher clip. That, and the difference in Kobe's ability to get hotter from deep, are the offensive differences. Night in, night out, Jordan was a more consistent scorer and that shows in the averages.

:applause: Yup. Night in, night out, MJ was the better scorer because he was more reliable and more consistent. But at his peak, you can argue Kobe was slightly more dangerous due to his 3 point range and ability to get hot from deep.

[andgar923]

Even if all the physical and athletic attributes were the same, MJ was simply more refined skills wise, smarter, had better vision.

We see glimpses of this late in their careers when athleticism has faded.

MJ was still better at creating better looks for himself by using footwork, timing, and just reading the defense better/quicker. MJ's superior IQ cannot be understated as it was Bird-esque.

[kennethgriffin]

And what advantages did Kobe have over MJ? I'm asking seriously, not to bait. Let's keep it constructive.



my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup

[Young X]

Played way smarter and more disciplined. Pretty sure it's because he went to UNC while Kobe came straight outta high school. He was also a more explosive athlete and didn't settle for nearly as many bad shots as Kobe...instead he worked harder to get the shots he wanted. Also a better defender, and a better, more willing passer.

[3ball]

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, OUTSIDE shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)


I agree with 1-3 above

But part of the reason for that was MJ's active intent NOT to shoot 3-pointers because he thought it took away from his overall game (namely, it reduced his goat rim attack, which was dimensions superior to Kobe).

Also, regarding #2 above - the "outside" means long-two's or further imo - no one had crazier hangtime jumpshots and paint/mid-range shots than MJ - Kobe CANNOT make the type of hanging jumpshots from the mid-range that MJ routinely made.





4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly



Not in the higher level playoffs.

Kobe was NOT capable of having big scoring games in the playoffs like MJ - no one is close to MJ when it comes to big scoring games or scoring in the playoffs:


40 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 38
Jerry West -- 20
Elgin Baylor -- 14
Kobe Bryant -- 13
Wilt Chamberlain -- 13
Shaquille O'Neal -- 12
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 11
Lebron James -- 11
Allen Iverson -- 10
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 9
Rick Barry -- 8
Bernard King -- 7
Dirk Nowitzki -- 7
Dwyane Wade -- 7
George Gervin -- 6
Charles Barkley -- 5
Larry Bird -- 5
John Havlicek -- 5
Bob McAdoo -- 5
Bob Pettit -- 5
Dominique Wilkins -- 5


50 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 8
Wilt Chamberlain -- 4
Allen Iverson -- 3
Jerry West -- 2
Elgin Baylor -- 1
Charles Barkley -- 1
Rick Barry -- 1
John Havlicek -- 1
Sam Jones -- 1
Eric Floyd -- 1
Ray Allen -- 1
Bob Pettit -- 1
Billy Cunningham -- 1
Bob McAdoo -- 1
Dominique Wilkins -- 1
Karl Malone -- 1
Vince Carter -- 1
Dirk Nowitzki -- 1
Kobe Bryant -- 1
Bob Cousy -- 1


60 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 1
Elgin Baylor -- 1






5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.


Actually, MJ's superior athleticism allowed him to use footwork Kobe couldn't - like, MJ could finish with tremendous power at the rim off of a no-dribble drop-step or a move using just 1 dribble... For Kobe to finish with any power, he needed 2+ dribbles most of the time, if not all the time.
.

[Noyze]

The things that can't be understated.

1) Jordan was quicker and faster. This is a huge advantage, he couldn't be caught in the open floor. Kobe was also hard to catch but you could grab him. Also Jordan's change of direction was quicker.

2) Jordan was more efficient. Playing college ball I'm sure was the factor. He could make a play to the basket on 2 moves. This saves energy.

3) Endurance, it lead to more consistent play on both ends.

4) Huge hands is another plus, especially on the def end.

[rmt]

my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup

Maybe there aren't any - except for 3pt shooting. I'll give Kobe that. And maybe instead of taking all those highly contested shots, he should have passed the ball and he'd get credit for shot selection.

[Asukal]

my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup

MJ is just flat out better and even you will have to agree. Kobe is great but MJ is the GOAT.

Age 35 MJ was the best player in the world, Kobe at 35? Well.... he chucked and got injured. :whatever:

[kennethgriffin]

kobe was a better pure scorer than jordan

take away MJ's drives and collapse on him. he cant do much. luckily for him he played in the isolation era with clear outs... kobe was a dynamic scorer with unlimited range.

kobe made probably 5000 more insanely difficult shots

best bad shot maker in NBA history by far. and its not even close


kobe took 90% of his three point attempts with a guy directly infront of him. while mj took almost all of his threes when he was open

jordans contested shot making ability really was 15 feet and in.. kobes was 40 feet and in


asside from that kobe is ambidextrous. he can shoot 3's left handed too

he could run point... while jordan had pippen to bring up the ball and run the PG responsibilities. jordan could get assists. but mainly off kick outs


kobe could run the offense a bit better as the helper

[kshutts1]

The things that can't be understated.

1) Jordan was quicker and faster. This is a huge advantage, he couldn't be caught in the open floor. Kobe was also hard to catch but you could grab him. Also Jordan's change of direction was quicker.

2) Jordan was more efficient. Playing college ball I'm sure was the factor. He could make a play to the basket on 2 moves. This saves energy.

3) Endurance, it lead to more consistent play on both ends.

4) Huge hands is another plus, especially on the def end.
Man... to you, and anyone else.. the college argument is only valid for the first couple years in the pros.

After that, your insinuation is that college coaches/training staff/assistant coaches are better than NBA coaches. That may be the case with some of the most elite coaches but, in general, it's incorrect.

That is one huge misleading argument/statement that is often used.

[ClipperRevival]

Delete.

[Asukal]

kobe was a better pure scorer than jordan

take away MJ's drives and collapse on him. he cant do much. luckily for him he played in the isolation era with clear outs... kobe was a dynamic scorer with unlimited range.

kobe made probably 5000 more insanely difficult shots

best bad shot maker in NBA history by far. and its not even close


kobe took 90% of his three point attempts with a guy directly infront of him. while mj took almost all of his threes when he was open

jordans contested shot making ability really was 15 feet and in.. kobes was 40 feet and in


asside from that kobe is ambidextrous. he can shoot 3's left handed too

he could run point... while jordan had pippen to bring up the ball and run the PG responsibilities. jordan could get assists. but mainly off kick outs


kobe could run the offense a bit better as the helper



Uhm excuse me but how many scoring titles does kobe have again? :whatever:

[Young X]

Kobe's advantages are superior dribbling ability (not overall ballhandling, just the ability to shake defenders with moves off the dribble) and long distance shooting which are 2 aspects of the game that are better and more emphasized from the early 2000's - today.

[kennethgriffin]

MJ is just flat out better and even you will have to agree. Kobe is great but MJ is the GOAT.

Age 35 MJ was the best player in the world, Kobe at 35? Well.... he chucked and got injured. :whatever:


he's really not "flat out better"


hes more efficient fg% wise by taking smarter shots and driving more


kobe had the same PPS though.. both 1.30 points per shot career




kobe could do everything jordan could do asside from free throw line dunks


jordan could not do what kobe did on offense in terms of range/difficulty/contested beyond 15 feet




if jordan took the type of shots kobe took his whole career. his fg% would have been below 35%



kobe took the most ridiculous shots ever and still managed 45%

insane

[3ball]

kobe was a better pure scorer than jordan

take away MJ's drives and collapse on him. he cant do much. luckily for him he played in the isolation era with clear outs... kobe was a dynamic scorer with unlimited range.

kobe made probably 5000 more insanely difficult shots

best bad shot maker in NBA history by far. and its not even close


kobe took 90% of his three point attempts with a guy directly infront of him. while mj took almost all of his threes when he was open

jordans contested shot making ability really was 15 feet and in.. kobes was 40 feet and in


asside from that kobe is ambidextrous. he can shoot 3's left handed too

he could run point... while jordan had pippen to bring up the ball and run the PG responsibilities. jordan could get assists. but mainly off kick outs


kobe could run the offense a bit better as the helper


On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate each players shot-making ability inside 15 feet?

[kennethgriffin]

Uhm excuse me but how many scoring titles does kobe have again? :whatever:

PPS is the same... if kobe takes 24 shots per game like jordan for his entire career. he also has 10 scoring titles. kobe took 19 shots per game

a little different


pure points doesnt mean anything except volume. it doesnt show individual skills on the floor.

he dunked half his points for his first decade in the nba

[AceManIII]

Topic is actually staying on track...wow :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate each players shot-making ability inside 15 feet?


inside 15 feet ( open )

kobe - 9.5

jordan - 10

inside 15 feet ( contested )

kobe - 8.5

jordan - 9


outside 15 feet ( open )

kobe - 9.5

jordan - 7.5

outside 15 feet ( contested )

kobe - 8.5

jordan - 6.5

[ClipperRevival]

PPS is the same... if kobe takes 24 shots per game like jordan for his entire career. he also has 10 scoring titles. kobe took 19 shots per game

a little different


pure points doesnt mean anything except volume. it doesnt show individual skills on the floor.

he dunked half his points for his first decade in the nba

Huh? Kobe's efficiency was way below MJ's so how would him taking the same amount of shots equal similar production?

And the last statement? :facepalm

[kshutts1]

First, I'm a huge Kobe fan. He's arguably my favorite active player, though he ticks me off too much to definitively be my favorite.

But if you give Kobe and Jordan a skills test, with no defenders, it would not surprise me to see Kobe win. In fact, I'd say he'd be the favorite, if we're all being impartial and unbiased.

Disclaimer: I mention Lebron in the following. It is not meant as a "who's better" comparison, but rather as a point of reference; a relevant similarity.

However, the biggest difference that I have seen is Kobe's inability to adapt. He plays his game, without fail, no matter what the results or expected results or strength of other players on his team.

Jordan, early in his career, was a one-man wrecking crew... similar to (though infinitely more efficient than) 2015 Finals Lebron and 2006 Kobe. However, when Jordan had quality teammates, he was able (after much hard work, I might add... it was a documented battle by the Bulls staff) to defer to them more often, to set them up to succeed, to rely on them in a sense.

I've never really seen that from Kobe. Even when he was with Shaq, I always had the sense that Kobe was getting his, and Shaq was getting his (similar to Westbrook/Durant), and it just happened to work out really well.

In one series (Lebron this past finals), an argument can be had as to how valuable it would be either control everything or to defer a bit more and try to build up your teammates. I think Lebron did the right thing.

But for an entire season? Kobe may have been saddled with a less-than-stellar supporting cast in some years but, in my opinion, the best approach would have been to work with them, and build their confidence. I never saw that attempt from Kobe. He appeared to just look around and be like... "well, I am the best player in the world... so time to dominate", just like Lebron did in the finals.

Difference is... one season is a long enough time to work with a team, and harness their strengths while filling in their weaknesses, while one series is not. That glaring difference is, in my opinion, the one major thing holding Kobe back from being on Jordan's level.

[Asukal]

he's really not "flat out better"


hes more efficient fg% wise by taking smarter shots and driving more


kobe had the same PPS though.. both 1.30 points per shot career




kobe could do everything jordan could do asside from free throw line dunks


jordan could not do what kobe did on offense in terms of range/difficulty/contested beyond 15 feet




if jordan took the type of shots kobe took his whole career. his fg% would have been below 35%



kobe took the most ridiculous shots ever and still managed 45%

insane

Are you seriously arguing this shit? It's like saying if Shaq took 3's his FG would not be above 50%. That is a stupid argument. :facepalm

Jordan will never take those kind of shots regularly because he doesn't need to. Why in the blue hell would he chuck up low percentage 3's when he has better offensive tools to work with? Jordan is just flat out better.

[kennethgriffin]

Huh? Kobe's efficiency was way below MJ's so how would him taking the same amount of shots equal similar production?

And the last statement? :facepalm

you must not understand what PPS means

:lol

[ClipperRevival]

inside 15 feet ( open )

kobe - 9.5

jordan - 10

inside 15 feet ( contested )

kobe - 8.5

jordan - 9


outside 15 feet ( open )

kobe - 9.5

jordan - 7.5

outside 15 feet ( contested )

kobe - 8.5

jordan - 6.5

Huh? Do you know what's MJ's career FG% was with the Bulls? .515%. Well over .500%. That is impressive for a volume, high usage 2 guard.

What you said above are just your opinions. The numbers say MJ was much more efficient anywhere on the court outside the 3 point line over Kobe. Let's not confuse PEAK with overall career.

[andgar923]

Kenneth... so when do you wanna meet up and play?

we're both in Ottawa so let's do this.

[ShawkFactory]

PPS is the same... if kobe takes 24 shots per game like jordan for his entire career. he also has 10 scoring titles. kobe took 19 shots per game

a little different


pure points doesnt mean anything except volume. it doesnt show individual skills on the floor.

he dunked half his points for his first decade in the nba
You really don't know what you're talking about do you? I could even figure out which sentence to address because every one of them has been filled with the ramblings of someone who doesn't know the game :lol

[3ball]

MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's non-Shaq championship years (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 ppg.. 48.2% fg.. 2 MVP
Kobe.. 27.4 ppg.. 46.1% fg.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 45.9% fg
Kobe.. 29.8 ppg.. 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 ppg.. 43.4% fg.. 3 FMVP
Kobe.. 29.2 ppg.. 41.3% fg.. 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above show MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??..
.

[kennethgriffin]

Are you seriously arguing this shit? It's like saying if Shaq took 3's his FG would not be above 50%. That is a stupid argument. :facepalm

Jordan will never take those kind of shots regularly because he doesn't need to. Why in the blue hell would he chuck up low percentage 3's when he has better offensive tools to work with? Jordan is just flat out better.



look at a kobe highlight video... difficult/impossible shots. he takes these on the regular and gets a good percentage


jordan was never seen taking running 40 foot leaning out of bounds fade aways


kobe did it just to troll other teams. he said it made them lose confidence in themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc



jordan never did this stuff ^ ... it was every day for kobe his whole career





think about this... even while shooting 90% of his threes wide open and kobe taking 90% of his threes contested... kobe still somehow out shot him percentage wise

jordan is not even halfway comparable to kobe outside of 15 feet ... kobes on another level



contested shooting is something you really cant measure with percentages... cause theyre in the same category as open shots... they need to be separated

[Mass Debator]

Jordan has bigger/stronger hands which helped tremendously with his drives
Jordan is more coachable. Played into the system more. More patient
Jordan has a stronger upper body and more explosive jumping off 2 feet.

Kobe is a more skilled scorer and shooter
Kobe is a bit longer and more fluid
Kobe is more creative with the dribble

The main difference is that Kobe like forced himself into trying to be the greatest of all time. MJ probably had the mindset of being the greatest that he can be of all time and the GOAT status came with it. Jordan's coachability got him easier shots more often. Kobe willed it too much which still made him great.

[Asukal]

PPS is the same... if kobe takes 24 shots per game like jordan for his entire career. he also has 10 scoring titles. kobe took 19 shots per game

a little different


pure points doesnt mean anything except volume. it doesnt show individual skills on the floor.

he dunked half his points for his first decade in the nba

Yet one guy has 10 scoring titles the other guy has 2. One guy has the career ppg crown and the other guy has the all time missed shots crown. :whatever:

[ClipperRevival]

look at a kobe highlight video... difficult/impossible shots. he takes these on the regular and gets a good percentage


jordan was never seen taking running 40 foot leaning out of bounds fade aways


kobe did it just to troll other teams. he said it made them lose confidence in themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc



jordan never did this stuff ^ ... it was every day for kobe his whole career





think about this... even while shooting 90% of his threes wide open and kobe taking 90% of his threes contested... kobe still somehow out shot him percentage wise

jordan is not even halfway comparable to kobe outside of 15 feet ... kobes on another level

So you're giving Kobe credit for taking bad shots time and time again?

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan was also superior defensively and on the boards. Can be related to athleticism but still, those are important aspects of basketball.

[Asukal]

look at a kobe highlight video... difficult/impossible shots. he takes these on the regular and gets a good percentage


jordan was never seen taking running 40 foot leaning out of bounds fade aways


kobe did it just to troll other teams. he said it made them lose confidence in themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc



jordan never did this stuff ^ ... it was every day for kobe his whole career





think about this... even while shooting 90% of his threes wide open and kobe taking 90% of his threes contested... kobe still somehow out shot him percentage wise

jordan is not even halfway comparable to kobe outside of 15 feet ... kobes on another level



contested shooting is something you really cant measure with percentages... cause theyre in the same category as open shots... they need to be separated

Kobe wins the 3 point argument.... that's it? :biggums:


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFFS:


40 point games

Michael Jordan -- 38
Jerry West -- 20
Elgin Baylor -- 14
Kobe Bryant -- 13
Wilt Chamberlain -- 13
Shaquille O'Neal -- 12
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 11
Lebron James -- 11
Allen Iverson -- 10
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 9
Rick Barry -- 8
Bernard King -- 7
Dirk Nowitzki -- 7
Dwyane Wade -- 7
George Gervin -- 6
Charles Barkley -- 5
Larry Bird -- 5
John Havlicek -- 5
Bob McAdoo -- 5
Bob Pettit -- 5
Dominique Wilkins -- 5


50 point games

Michael Jordan -- 8
Wilt Chamberlain -- 4
Allen Iverson -- 3
Jerry West -- 2
Elgin Baylor -- 1
Charles Barkley -- 1
Rick Barry -- 1
John Havlicek -- 1
Sam Jones -- 1
Eric Floyd -- 1
Ray Allen -- 1
Bob Pettit -- 1
Billy Cunningham -- 1
Bob McAdoo -- 1
Dominique Wilkins -- 1
Karl Malone -- 1
Vince Carter -- 1
Dirk Nowitzki -- 1
Kobe Bryant -- 1
Bob Cousy -- 1


60 point games

Michael Jordan -- 1
Elgin Baylor -- 1

[kennethgriffin]

So you're giving Kobe credit for taking bad shots time and time again?


if a guy can take horribly impossible threes over 2 guys and hit a higher percentage than a guy who takes smart open threes

and the guy taking impossible ones ends up with thousands more made threes because of it... also matching jordans POINTS PER SHOT because of the extra three pointers made combined with free throws..


then yes. its a very valuable attribute.


its not bad at all. its just a different way to get the same result.


3 > 2

everyone knows that

and you cant always be open... infact most shots by stars are contested. and kobes the best out of all of them from a certain range





but like i said from the start. i wouldnt expect jordan fans to understand this or appreciate anything kobe does better.. stubborn f*cking clueless assholes. they cant even admit when another guy is better at one thing.

so f*cking insecure. dunno why i bother


/thread.

[andgar923]

Kenneth, so when do you wanna play?

[Asukal]

if a guy can take horribly impossible threes over 2 guys and hit a higher percentage than a guy who takes smart open threes

and the guy taking impossible ones ends up with thousands more made threes because of it... also matching jordans POINTS PER SHOT because of the extra three pointers made combined with free throws..


then yes. its a very valuable attribute.


its not bad at all. its just a different way to get the same result.


3 > 2

everyone knows that

and you cant always be open... infact most shots by stars are contested. and kobes the best out of all of them from a certain range





but like i said from the start. i wouldnt expect jordan fans to understand this or appreciate anything kobe does better.. stubborn f*cking clueless assholes. they cant even admit when another guy is better at one thing.

so f*cking insecure. dunno why i bother


/thread.

Topic "What separated MJ from Kobe". :rolleyes:

And he calls us clueless assholes. :biggums:

Sure kobe is better at taking stupid shots, there I admitted it. :oldlol:

/endkennethgriff

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe wins the 3 point argument.... that's it? :biggums:


:roll: :roll: :roll:

i said kobe was a more dynamic scorer from 15 feet out


thats more than just threes. thats extended midrange



thats basically half of the offensive end


and as good as jordan is inside. kobe is almost right there with MJ. kobe was also an extremely good inside scorer/driver


but jordan is less than half as effective contested outside 15 feet compared to kobe


jordan was very limited



hey jordan stans.. jordan had an UGLY FLAT piss poor shot the farther he got outside his comfort zone... it was shIT


when he hit 6 threes ( half of kobes game high ) the dude couldnt even believe it himself...


know why? even jordan knows he sucked outside

[Asukal]

i said kobe was a more dynamic scorer from 15 feet out


thats more than just threes. thats extended midrange



thats basically half of the offensive end


and as good as jordan is inside. kobe is almost right there with MJ. kobe was also an extremely good inside scorer/driver


but jordan is less than half as effective contested outside 15 feet compared to kobe


jordan was very limited



hey jordan stans.. jordan had an UGLY FLAT piss poor shot the farther he got outside his comfort zone... it was shIT


when he hit 6 threes ( half of kobes game high ) the dude couldnt even believe it himself...


know why? even jordan knows he sucked outside

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

[ClipperRevival]

It's settled. Kenneth never watched MJ play.

[kennethgriffin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XOnpCBdiA

jordans all time record worst three point display in nba history


first rack:

MISS
MISS
make
make
MISS

2nd rack:

MISS
make
MISS
MISS
MISS

3rd rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
make
MISS

4th rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
make
MISS


5th rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
MISS
MISS




still the all time record holder





https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/zYGdfsYl3QMYM55UJXVu9w--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NzAwO3E9OTU7dz01MDQ-/http://images.sportsworldreport.com/data/images/full/15579/michael-jordan.jpg

[Akrazotile]

Jordan was more committed to intangibles (defense, rebounding, playing hard in situations where he doesnt get credit for a basket).

Kobe was never really the "do anything it takes to win" kind of player, he was always the "shoot however many times it takes to get credit" kind of player. Sure, he had an impressive array of moves. So does Carmelo Anthony. Big whoop. Basketball is about more than the "hero shot." Kobe never really seemed to understand that.


Also, while Jordan was small in the pants, Kobe was VERY small. This led to a slightly higher intimidation factor for Jordan against opponents.

[sdot_thadon]

1st and foremost bean was a Mj imitator to begin his career, so he gave himself the impossible challenge of trying to mirror someone else. As time passed especially the last leg of his career he's made it his own so to speak. With that said he has a few strengths over Mj.

MJ's definitive advantages will always start and end with IQ and athleticism. Kobe's no slouch athletically but Mj is another level up, especially relative to his opposition. The quick decision making is the thing that makes Mj the ultimate attacker with the ball and he didn't waste as much motion as kobe does on occassion.

Kobe is a better shooter point blank, if you want to break it down to ranges Mj is better from mid range and kobe better from further out.

Kobe is a flashier, but I wonder sometimes if that's really a better ballhandler. Kobes early career coincided with the and1 era, so that was a skill guys wanted at the time.

I honestly think as a scorer kobe may have more tools in his box than Mj, although Mj used his better.

Mj made tough shots out of necessity, Kobe made them for the hell of it, or at least that's how it seemed at times.

That made it seem like when kobe heated up he was impossible to defend, because the shots he took and made were just that tough.

Kobe faced a larger variety of defenses in his career as well for what it's worth.

[ShawkFactory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XOnpCBdiA

jordans all time record worst three point display in nba history


first rack:

MISS
MISS
make
make
MISS

2nd rack:

MISS
make
MISS
MISS
MISS

3rd rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
make
MISS

4th rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
make
MISS


5th rack:

MISS
MISS
MISS
MISS
MISS




still the all time record holder





https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/zYGdfsYl3QMYM55UJXVu9w--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NzAwO3E9OTU7dz01MDQ-/http://images.sportsworldreport.com/data/images/full/15579/michael-jordan.jpg
Don't you usually wait like 5-6 more pages to bring out the huge trolling guns? Damn this was a legit thread bro

[kennethgriffin]

1st and foremost bean was a Mj imitator to begin his career, so he gave himself the impossible challenge of trying to mirror someone else. As time passed especially the last leg of his career he's made it his own so to speak. With that said he has a few strengths over Mj.

MJ's definitive advantages will always start and end with IQ and athleticism. Kobe's no slouch athletically but Mj is another level up, especially relative to his opposition. The quick decision making is the thing that makes Mj the ultimate attacker with the ball and he didn't waste as much motion as kobe does on occassion.

Kobe is a better shooter point blank, if you want to break it down to ranges Mj is better from mid range and kobe better from further out.

Kobe is a flashier, but I wonder sometimes if that's really a better ballhandler. Kobes early career coincided with the and1 era, so that was a skill guys wanted at the time.

I honestly think as a scorer kobe may have more tools in his box than Mj, although Mj used his better.

Mj made tough shots out of necessity, Kobe made them for the hell of it, or at least that's how it seemed at times.

That made it seem like when kobe heated up he was impossible to defend, because the shots he took and made were just that tough.

Kobe faced a larger variety of defenses in his career as well for what it's worth.



everything jordan ever did was an imitation


wilt was shooting fadeaways long before jordan

dr J was dunking from the free throw line and pulling reverse layups long before jordan


baylor was the first "jordan" type player btw

[sdot_thadon]

everything jordan ever did was an imitation


wilt was shooting fadeaways long before jordan

dr J was dunking from the free throw line and pulling reverse layups long before jordan


baylor was the first "jordan" type player btw
As a kobe fan you know exactly what I'm referring to Kenneth. He was trying real hard in those early years.

[ClipperRevival]

Kenneth,

Kobe was far better than MJ. Can you stop posting now? You're going to turn this into another biased, hate filled Kobe vs MJ thread. That wasn't my point.

[Cali Syndicate]

Whats mjs and Kobe's pps when you minus the points made from free throws? Id imagine mjs would more than marginally higher.

[kennethgriffin]

As a kobe fan you know exactly what I'm referring to Kenneth. He was trying real hard in those early years.


everyone from his generation tried copying MJ... the only reason kobes is more well known is because he was the only guy to actually get to that level out of all the "next 1s"

so he got more attention for it


but like i said.. jordan fans act like MJ was the first guy to chew gum and walk with a swagger or shoot a fade/reverse a layup etc...



allot of the way players these days are coming out they remind me allot of steph curry/kyrie erving types... because thats who the young guys are watching now and it compliments their height/weight/speed


kobe said he liked magic johnson more but he wasnt 6-9 and unathletic like magic was

he was a 6-6 athletic dynamic shooting guard. so he emulated the best player who was that frame/build/style

[3ball]

Kenneth,

Kobe was far better than MJ. Can you stop posting now? You're going to turn this into another biased, hate filled Kobe vs MJ thread. That wasn't my point.


He can't deal with the reality that 2nd three-peat MJ was better than Kobe ever was..

Aside from the successful 2nd three-peat and superior accolades across the board, this is supported by virtually any statistical measure (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11609769&postcount=49) you want to use.

Oh, and Phil Jackson has railed ON AND ON about how much better MJ is many, many times, in exquisite detail (it's easily googlable).. That's why Phil could "feel Kobe's hatred"... LOL it's true
.

[Asukal]

everyone from his generation tried copying MJ... the only reason kobes is more well known is because he was the only guy to actually get to that level out of all the "next 1s"

so he got more attention for it


but like i said.. jordan fans act like MJ was the first guy to chew gum and walk with a swagger or shoot a fade/reverse a layup etc...



allot of the way players these days are coming out they remind me allot of steph curry/kyrie erving types... because thats who the young guys are watching now and it compliments their height/weight/speed


kobe said he liked magic johnson more but he wasnt 6-9 and unathletic like magic was

he was a 6-6 athletic dynamic shooting guard. so he emulated the best player who was that frame/build/style

kobe is better than mj. There i said it. Happy now? :oldlol: :lol

[kennethgriffin]

He can't deal with the reality that 2nd three-peat MJ was better than Kobe ever was.

This is supported by virtually any statistical measure (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11609769&postcount=49) you want to use.

Oh, and Phil Jackson has railed ON AND ON about how much better MJ is many, many times, in exquisite detail (it's easily googlable).. That's why Phil could "feel Kobe's hatred"... LOL it's true



i dunno who you are


but i guarantee your opinion isnt as valid on the debate between kobe/mj as the opnion of MJ himself


"if i was in my prime. who would i wanna play 1 on 1. that list is very long. start off with jerry west, elgin baylor, kobe bryant in his prime. lebron in his prime. dwade in his prime. melo. thats a good start. and i dont think i'd lose other than to Kobe Bryant." - Michael Jordan quote

[3ball]

:applause:

yes kenneth

[andgar923]

i dunno who you are


but i guarantee your opinion isnt as valid on the debate between kobe/mj as the opnion of MJ himself


"if i was in my prime. who would i wanna play 1 on 1. that list is very long. start off with jerry west, elgin baylor, kobe bryant in his prime. lebron in his prime. dwade in his prime. melo. thats a good start. and i dont think i'd lose other than to Kobe Bryant." - Michael Jordan quote

But when do you wanna go play one on one?

[AirFederer]

One is the GOAT and the other is not.

There is not one thing Kobe does better or even equal of Mike. Nada. Zilch. Rien.

The most obvious to me is that Kobe always seemed to try to be someone he was not, and that again led him to unfortunate selfish play and behaviour (at times).

Kobe shall be praised for his dedication and his accolades. Great!

But he's not reaching Mikes ancles.

Kobe's still great doe.

[STATUTORY]

i dunno who you are


but i guarantee your opinion isnt as valid on the debate between kobe/mj as the opnion of MJ himself


"if i was in my prime. who would i wanna play 1 on 1. that list is very long. start off with jerry west, elgin baylor, kobe bryant in his prime. lebron in his prime. dwade in his prime. melo. thats a good start. and i dont think i'd lose other than to Kobe Bryant." - Michael Jordan quote

game recognize game, Michael has always regarded Kobe as the son he never had

his spiritual successor, the way Goku took over after master roshi

[kennethgriffin]

One is the GOAT and the other is not.

There is not one thing Kobe does better or even equal of Mike. Nada. Zilch. Rien.

The most obvious to me is that Kobe always seemed to try to be someone he was not, and that again led him to unfortunate selfish play and behaviour (at times).

Kobe shall be praised for his dedication and his accolades. Great!

But he's not reaching Mikes ancles.

Kobe's still great doe.


there is no goat player... just goat resumes


since resumes can be compared. but the players themselves cant unless they played each other in their prime


different eras. different competition.


kobe played mj a few times and had very impressive games. even at age 19. jordan couldnt do anything to slow him down even at an age when he was 1/10th the player he was to become later on

thats all we got to see

[T_L_P]

He wasn't nearly as effective, especially not in the Playoffs.

[3ball]

He can't deal with the reality that 2nd three-peat MJ was better than Kobe ever was..

Aside from the successful 2nd three-peat and superior accolades across the board, this is supported by virtually any statistical measure (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11609769&postcount=49) you want to use.

Oh, and Phil Jackson has railed ON AND ON about how much better MJ is many, many times, in exquisite detail (it's easily googlable).. That's why Phil could "feel Kobe's hatred"... LOL it's true




i dunno who you are


but i guarantee your opinion isnt as valid on the debate between kobe/mj as the opnion of MJ himself


"if i was in my prime. who would i wanna play 1 on 1. that list is very long. start off with jerry west, elgin baylor, kobe bryant in his prime. lebron in his prime. dwade in his prime. melo. thats a good start. and i dont think i'd lose other than to Kobe Bryant." - Michael Jordan quote


I'm with you Kenneth - Kobe is a better basketball player than Elgin, Lebron and West.. He has far more wrinkles, adjustability and capacity to his game.. And apparently, MJ thinks so too.

But re-read what you just quoted - MJ said that in his prime, he would only lose to Kobe - so the other guys wouldn't beat him AT ALL... Whereas, Kobe has sufficient capacity to take a few games from him..

Real recognize real.. Each 1 teach 1 and all the other sayings
.

[Indian guy]

Kobe's advantages are superior dribbling ability (not overall ballhandling, just the ability to shake defenders with moves off the dribble)

This. It's really his only definitive advantage. Kobe's iso dribbling skills, particularly with a live dribble, are better than MJ's. He's better at breaking his man down and set-up a shot. MJ had a much more straight forward dribble in isos with a live dribble - pick a side(usually right) and hard dribble in that direction. If cut off, then cross over to the left to set-up a jumper or drive.

[STATUTORY]

This. It's really his only definitive advantage. Kobe's iso dribbling skills, particularly with a live dribble, are better than MJ's. He's better at breaking his man down and set-up a shot.

better shot maker outside of the paint

[I Love the Game]

In some interview, Kobe talked about his game being "limited" by not being able to palm the ball. It certainly would have added another dimension to his game and he'd have his way with defenders. He definitely relied more on skillset and fundamentals than MJ. He has the best footwork I've ever seen.

I would also argue MJ was a once in a generation kind of athlete, while there are more "Kobe" level athletes in the NBA. Even though Kobe had some god given athletic ability, he worked at perfecting it more than MJ. His work ethic is obviously something that propelled him to top 10 status.

Wonder what he means by 'palming the ball' - I'm 6'2 and white and although I have larger hands for my size I can palm the ball pretty easily. Can't imagine someone of his size not being able to do it. I imagine he can palm the ball just not not well enough for quick movements in a game situation (like Okafor).

[ClipperRevival]

This. It's really his only definitive advantage. Kobe's iso dribbling skills, particularly with a live dribble, are better than MJ's. He's better at breaking his man down and set-up a shot. MJ had a much more straight forward dribble - pick a side(usually right) and hard dribble in that direction. If cut off, then cross over to the left to set-up a jumper or drive.

I agree. But that doesn't mean MJ wasn't just as good on iso because he could devastate you with his quickness from the triple threat stance. But yeah, with a live dribble and against a set defender, I give Kobe a slight edge in the ability to create his own shot.

[ClipperRevival]

Wonder what he means by 'palming the ball' - I'm 6'2 and white and although I have larger hands for my size I can palm the ball pretty easily. Can't imagine someone of his size not being able to do it. I imagine he can palm the ball just not not well enough for quick movements in a game situation (like Okafor).

Most NBA players can't palm the ball to a point where they could control it well enough to use it in-games and execute moves. Being able to hold the ball in a stand still position and doing it in games is quite different.

[Lebron23]

More MVP, More Scoring title, and More Finals MVP.

[3ball]

More MVP, More Scoring title, and More Finals MVP.
this is true... probably the truest thing itt

[3ball]

More MVP, More Scoring title, and More Finals MVP.
and regardless of what part of the career you want to use - mj had more fmvps and RS MVPs in just his post baseball career, than kobe had in his ENTIRE CAREER

[3ball]

and regardless of what part of the career you want to use - mj had more fmvps and RS MVPs in just his post baseball career, than kobe had in his ENTIRE CAREER



:facepalm

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2015/CQcjA-.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/J36smJ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/4OfuEY.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2015/0Vl99z.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-08-2015/YLL71A.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2015/296C64.gif


MJ had a much more straight forward dribble - pick a side(usually right) and hard dribble in that direction. If cut off, then cross over to the left to set-up a jumper or drive.



I agree that Kobe had more polished ability to create separation off a live dribble, but the bolded above is a considerable underrating of MJ's handles..

What you described about "picking a direction" is Lebron's handles.. It's kind of ridiculous to say that about MJ's handles.

MJ could go anywhere he wanted on the court.. He played point guard for 24 games and averaged 30/9/11.
.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ's handles got him to where he needed to go, with that level of quickness along with the body shakes he used was enough to get better shots. Look at the best shooting guards the last decade, Kobe, Wade, A.I, Tmac, all of them have more modern handles than MJ( and used the dribble more to set-up their offense).

[fos]

MJ was the superior athlete and competitor. Kobe's postgame was/is fantastic, but MJ's was better. MJ's defense was also significantly better, probably a result of superior athleticism and emphasis. No knock on Kobe, there's a reason Michael is pretty much universally considered the greatest player of all-time.

[scandisk_]

Aside from the obvious ones, you've got to throw discipline in there. He was able to balance his hard as nails attitude with being sneaky smart on the court. He's gonna get his while also letting the game come to him. perfect balance.

[Smoke117]

People are honestly getting into things you don't need to. You don't really need to go past defense here to tell what separates them: (there are two sides of the game after all...) Jordan played high quality, consistent defense throughout his career...Kobe didn't. That's just a simple fact...and don't bother bringing up those 1st team all defensive nods...nobody is fooled by those unless you are all over kobes nuts. It always amazes me how little knowledge some people have of the defensive end.

I dislike both players so I have no horse in this race. I could go on forever how Pippen is better defensively than Jordan, but in this particular match up Jordan annihilates Kobe as far defense goes. Considering his offensive numbers are better to, I don't understand how anyone can think Kobe is in Jordans league. Kobe was frankly never good enough to be compared to jordan the way he is.

[rmt]

People are honestly getting into things you don't need to. You don't really need to go past defense here to tell what separates them: (there are two sides of the game after all...) Jordan played high quality, consistent defense throughout his career...Kobe didn't. That's just a simple fact...and don't bother bringing up those 1st team all defensive nods...nobody is fooled by those unless you are all over kobes nuts. It always amazes me how little knowledge some people have of the defensive end.

I dislike both players so I have no horse in this race. I could go on forever how Pippen is better defensively than Jordan, but in this particular match up Jordan annihilates Kobe as far defense goes. Considering his offensive numbers are better to, I don't understand how anyone can think Kobe is in Jordans league. Kobe was frankly never good enough to be compared to jordan the way he is.

Ditto. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ. He's over-rated because he's a Laker - just look at the hype/amount of posts there have been on the unproven D'Angelo Russell who hasn't even played one NBA minute just because he's a Laker.

[WorldWarriors]

LOL Jordan could take some ass whoopings. I don't see how anybody could play after some of the punishment he took on the court. He obviously figured it out. LOL he said that the Knicks kicked his ass for the last time and then he started working out with weights so he could be ready to fight back the next go around. He was determined to win and he never stopped getting better. It's that kind of mentality that separates him from Kobe imo.

I mean dudes just flat out laid you out if you thought about going to the rim. I cringe how hard they were fouling back then. The only player that came close to getting that kind of punishment was AI going to the rack. At least in the Bucks/Sixers playoff series.

But anyway Kobe is a great, great player and I don't want to take away from his accomplishments but he didn't have to put up with what Jordan had to. He had Shaq early on to shield him from any real harm by the time Shaq was gone the rules of the game changed so there was no "punishment" so to speak.

As far as metrics, everybody else already gave their input.

[PHILA]

Living the Dream: My Life and Basketball - Hakeem Olajuwon (1995)

When I look at basketball sometimes I think of animals. Michael Jordan is like a big cat hopping on a rock; as soon as he lands he goes straight up. People think he’s going to a spot on the floor but really the court is just a stepping stone. He gets the ball, hops to a space, and leaps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwkQnCLGNr8&t=3m53s

[G0ATbe]

If you mean what makes him better, he's not:confusedshrug: . Jordan has him beat in athleticism. Kobe has him beat at everything else.

[Asukal]

If you mean what makes him better, he's not:confusedshrug: . Jordan has him beat in athleticism. Kobe has him beat at everything else.

It's refreshing to remember how stupid kobediots are specially now that his career is almost over. :applause:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup
Wait, what?? Did you miss his post ON THE VERY SAME PAGE OF YOUR POST where he outlines what he feels Kobes advantages are?

"why even bother having a conversation" - take a look in the mirror.

[Kobe_6/8]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools.And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?

'I think what separated them was raw, physical tools.'

^ that's what separates all athletes.

Jordan has always been better than Kobe and always will be...Kobe is great but he's not GOAT level.

For some positions you can easily argue that #1 and #2 are interchangeable. Not shooting guard.

[f0und]

both players are unstoppable when they get hot. but you can also say that about a number of different players. the difference between jordan and kobe is that jordan can do it nearly at will whereas kobe will get hot at random. jordan has the quickness, athleticism, and touch around the rim to get pretty much any shot he wants any where on the court. but he's also smart enough to pick the best shots to take. kobe on the other hand doesnt have the same quickness and athleticism. nor does he have the smarts to pick the best shots. instead he just shot jacks til he gets hot.

this is why jordan has a *hit ton of memorable playoffs and finals moments and kobe has just a few. its also why kobe shoots under 40% in 1/3 of his career games while jordan does it in 1/8 of his. their whole approach to the game is completely different. one player relies on skills, athleticism, and smarts. the other relies on inferior skills, inferior athleticism, and chance.

and this is just in one aspect of the game. its just as lopsided in others(defense, leadership, intangibles)

[VeeCee15]

1. leadership

2. real confidence...not over-compensating for the lack of confidence like Kobe

3. charisma

4. huge hands

5. stronger, much broader shoulders (Phil Jackson stated this)

6. Way more athletic - jumps higher, faster, quicker

7. Much smarter

8. Better shooter.

9. Better Scorer

10. ACTUALLY CLUTCH (if you look at stat, Kobe is one of the LEAST CLUTCH players in the history of the league)

11. There's only one MJ, Kobe tried to be like mike.

12. He is basically BETTER than Kobe and superior to kobe in EVERYTHING.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe was better at taking contested jumpers, and possibly better at making them because he was forced to shoot them more often. The things you listed about Jordan in the OP made it so he didn't have to take ridiculous shots like Kobe did.

You know how I know you never watched Michael Jordan play? :roll:

[unknowns8]

Yet one guy has 10 scoring titles the other guy has 2. One guy has the career ppg crown and the other guy has the all time missed shots crown. :whatever:



:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:



but you alsoi get a :facepalm for trying to use logic in your argument with kenneth :no: :oldlol:

[jstern]

To me Jordan is such a unique and mind boggling phenomenon. So simply compared to any athlete in history, not just Kobe. His reflex and spontaneous instantaneous decision making. When Jordan was playing baseball, in his 30s, some doctor that performs test on baseball players, future MLB player, or perhaps MLB players, that rates their reflex. He tested Jordan, and out of the thousands of players that he had tested, 30+ year old Jordan scored higher than all, or higher than all except one. And it just made so much sense, of his reactions to circumstances.

The other amazing thing about Jordan was his mind. I won't go into that.

But also, forget about his clutch shooting. In critical moments, the guy simply never made mistakes. It's normal and an accepted thing to see Lebron, Kobe, CP3, etc, make occasional mistakes in critical moments. And it's not considered a big deal because they're human.

But outside of Jordan making that mistake Orlando when he came back from baseball, Jordan never made mistakes in critical moments.

An example is Kobe getting blocked by Turkoglu. I could never imagine Jordan getting blocked by Turkoglu during such a critical moment. The guy was just at another level in terms of concentration and focus.

What about that game as a Wizard, when he banged his head visibly hard against the floor, but was so focused that he did not react until the whistle was blown. Flu game, the guy is just not a normal person.

[plowking]

No such thing as hanging in the air, since it is all determined by how high you can jump initially. MJ simply jumped higher.

[9erempiree]

Only thing that separates MJ from Kobe is one more championship. They are essentially the same freaking player. One guys weakness is another one's strength.

There is really no other way to say it. I know people want to breakdown specifics and give these little categories to MJ and then proceed to say MJ is better in the grand scheme of things but it doesn't work that way.

For example, you guys say shot selection is one category, is a shot really that bad when you make it? A guy that takes wide open 3's versus a guy that can shoot anywhere and anyway on the floor is considered bad? It's a testament of how good he is. Is it bad when you can make it?

Michael Jordan was the complete player and considered the GOAT. Then Kobe Bryant came along and did things that MJ could never do. Therefore, fans are now retracting their claims about MJ because like I mentioned before...one man's weakness is another one's strength.

Kobe may not be better than MJ in some people's eyes but what he has done is show the world that MJ is not as great and perfect as we thought he was.

[fandarko]

I don't get the bigger hands obsession. Phil said it so Kobe fans love to parrot it, but I don't know what advantage that gives MJ besides slightly superior finishing ability at the rim. It simply isn't major enough to pin it as some big difference maker.

That's why Kobe was a better shooter than MJ, especially in the first 5-6 years of his career, Jordan was a mediocre shooter. It has to do with his huge hands.

[Nash]

Jordan was better at basically everything, shown clearly by their effectiveness on the court.

[masonanddixon]

They are separated by almost nothing. Only Jordan's 6 rings to Kobe's 5 is what make Jordan better. Kobe from 05-08 was the only player to ever be at Jordans level.

[3ball]

They are separated by almost nothing. Only Jordan's 6 rings to Kobe's 5 is what make Jordan better.


MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's championship years as a 1st option without Shaq (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG... 48.2% FG... 2 MVP
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG... 46.1% FG... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG... 45.9% FG
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG... 46.4% FG


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG... 43.4% FG... 3 FMVP
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG... 41.3% FG... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above already showed that MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats?

[sportjames23]

That's why Kobe was a better shooter than MJ, especially in the first 5-6 years of his career, Jordan was a mediocre shooter. It has to do with his huge hands.

Is that why MJ shot over 50% during his career in Chicago (his Wizards years is the only reason his shooting percentage is below 50% and that's just barely) and Kobe never shot above 47%?

[masonanddixon]

MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's championship years as a 1st option without Shaq (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG... 48.2% FG... 2 MVP
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG... 46.1% FG... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG... 45.9% FG
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG... 46.4% FG


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG... 43.4% FG... 3 FMVP
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG... 41.3% FG... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above already showed that MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats?


That season where he hung 64 on the Mavs and 81 on Toronto he was so clearly the best player by far since MJ it wasn't even funny. Literallly every player in the league acknowledged that he was the best. The shit he was doing was unreal.

[Mr Feeny]

They are separated by almost nothing. Only Jordan's 6 rings to Kobe's 5 is what make Jordan better. Kobe from 05-08 was the only player to ever be at Jordans level.

Tbf Steve Nash was a better player from 2005 to 2008 than Kobe. Next.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe may not be better than MJ in some people's eyes but what he has done is show the world that MJ is not as great and perfect as we thought he was.

Not really. Kobe coming along hasn't made people forget MJ the same way MJ made people forget Dr.J and so on. Kobe and Lebron are both rare talents that have approximated a great deal of MJ's greatness, but not all the way. If they had, if they had clearly and obviously exceeded him, I somehow doubt MJ would still be as revered as he is. He's still the standard bearer.

[Mr Feeny]

MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's championship years as a 1st option without Shaq (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG... 48.2% FG... 2 MVP
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG... 46.1% FG... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG... 45.9% FG
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG... 46.4% FG


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG... 43.4% FG... 3 FMVP
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG... 41.3% FG... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above already showed that MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats?

Someone shut this thread down. 3ball (who I loathe beyond description) has just ended all arguments and put it on lock.

[IllegalD]

2008-2010 wasn't even peak Kobe you fakkit simpleton.

Jordan/LeBron Stanleys are the only people that pretend like Kobe didn't have 3 years of his absolute prime wasted with sh*t Kwame Brown supporting casts in the stacked West.

Inspite all that Kobe still put up historic numbers and scoring performances carried a scrub team to the playoffs.

[Mr Feeny]

2008-2010 wasn't even peak Kobe you fakkit simpleton.

Jordan/LeBron Stanleys are the only people that pretend like Kobe didn't have 3 years of his absolute prime wasted with sh*t Kwame Brown supporting casts in the stacked West.

Inspite all that Kobe still put up historic numbers and scoring performances carried a scrub team to the playoffs.In what sense were those 45%fg shooting seasons, those 1 point second halves of game 7's and those 3-1 series chokes and back to back first round exits historic?

Your boy is a scrub. Get over it. Lebron meanwhile doesn't have Odom and he's leading his infintently worse group of scrubs to finals wins against the best team in basketball.

Ouch. Do you need aloe vera for that burn? :lol

[IllegalD]

Things which Kobe is superior at than Jordan:

1) Ballhandling. Kobe's handles are superior to MJs. Kobe's are borderline streetball wheras Jordan's handles are just normal.

2) 3 point shooting/range

3) Longevity (Kobe's longevity shits all over Jordan's and he didn't retire twice like Jordan to go play whiffle ball)

4) Offensive arsenal/moves (Kobe has more moves, combos, and counters than Jordan in part because he needs them because of slightly inferior athleticism than MJ)

5) Meshing with All-star level teammates/sacrificing his game for the greater good. (everyone had to play 2nd fiddle to MJ, but playing with Kobe allowed guys like Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Bynum have their best individual and most successful seasons) Even Tex Winters said Jordan wouldn't have been able to play with Shaq because of his ego.

5) QBing/running the Triangle. Kobe is the best Triangle player of all time because he is the only player to have to simultaneously play both the Pippen (lead guard, facilitator role) and Jordan (4th quarter, crunch time go-to-guy) role.

6) Playing against/beating superior competition. (Jordan never had to deal with another dynasty like the San Antonio Spurs, play in as stacked conference as the West, or play in an era with overlapping GOAT players: Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.

7) Making Kwame into a serviceable NBA starter (where MJ failed miserably)

[Mr Feeny]

Things MJ is better at than Kobe:

:


1-Ball handling: Self explanatory. Jordan's huge alpha hands give him the nod over Kobe's little soft sissified beta hands.

2- Decision making.

3-mid range shooting

4-Finishing at the rim

5-Perimeter defense

6-Post defense

7-Shot blocking

8- Playing the passing lanes

9- Stamina and endurance

10-Not being a rapist

11 - Not being a snitch

12 - Winning championships

13- scoring & efficiency

14- Leadership

15- Dong size

Next

[IllegalD]

In what sense were those 45%fg shooting seasons, those 1 point second halves of game 7's and those 3-1 series chokes and back to back first round exits historic?

Your boy is a scrub. Get over it. Lebron meanwhile doesn't have Odom and he's leading his infintently worse group of scrubs to finals wins against the best team in basketball.

Ouch. Do you need aloe vera for that burn? :lol

2006 Season:

81 Point Game (2nd highest mark, one of the greatest individual performances of all time)

62 in 3 quarters (TNT's All Decade Regular Season Performance selection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkLH2cteIoo))

35.4 PPG (highest average since Jordan's 37, only 5th player in NBA history to average 35+).

Epic Playoff Buzzer Beater vs Suns (considered one of the Greatest Moments in NBA Playoffs history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIVPe2hfeA))


2007 Season:

4 straight games 50+ points. (only other to do this is Wilt, who's records are suspect because of weak era and competition)


So if we eliminate Wilt's bs Kobe basically has the HIGHESt scoring performance of all time and the only player ever to score 50+ 4 straight games. HISTORIC LEGENDARY!!! :bowdown:

Learn basketball you pathetic LeBron Stanley scumbag piece of sh*t. :yaohappy: :hammertime:

[Mr Feeny]

I'm sorry I don't speak regular season:eek:

[IllegalD]

I'm sorry I don't speak regular season:eek:

You don't speak LeBron's career? :confusedshrug:

[Mr Feeny]

You don't speak LeBron's career? :confusedshrug:

Why have we brought in Mr Lebron "6 finals runs as lead dog" into this discussion.

This is between Kobe Mr "3 Finals runs as lead dog" against the GOAT. Stick to da topic :lebronamazed:

[IllegalD]

Why have we brought in Mr Lebron "6 finals runs as lead dog" into this discussion.

This is between Kobe Mr "2 Finals runs as lead dog" against the GOAT. Stick to da topic :lebronamazed:

LeBron Stanley Logic: Where just making the finals and failing miserably improves your legacy. (as long as you were the "lead dog" while you were doing it) :facepalm :biggums: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron Stanley Logic: Where just making the finals and failing miserably improves your legacy. (as long as you were the "lead dog" while you were doing it) :facepalm :biggums: :roll:

Why have you brought Mr 6 finals runs as lead dog to the discussion?

This is between Mr 3 finals runs as lead dog and the GOAT :lebronamazed:

[IllegalD]

Why have we brought in Mr Lebron "6 finals runs as lead dog" into this discussion.

This is between Kobe Mr "2 Finals runs as lead dog" against the GOAT. Stick to da topic :lebronamazed:

BTW. Funny how you counted ALL 6 of LeBron's finals runs (even though he's only won 2), yet you only counted 2 of Kobe's "lead dog" Finals runs, even though he clearly went to 3 in a row between 2008-2010.

Skew facts to fit your bullsh*t logic much, LeBron Stanley? :lol :no:

[Mr Feeny]

BTW. Funny how you counted ALL 6 of LeBron's finals runs (even though he's only won 2), yet you only counted 2 of Kobe's "lead dog" Finals runs, even though he clearly went to 3 in a row between 2008-2010.

Skew facts to fit your bullsh*t logic much, LeBron Stanley? :lol :no:
Why have we brought in Mr Lebron "6 finals runs as lead dog" into this discussion.

This is between Kobe Mr "3 finals runs as lead dog" against the GOAT. Stick to da topic :lebronamazed:

[Iceman#44]

There are a lot of Pages in Phil jackson ' s book "11 rings" about MJ vs Kobe...

[Asukal]

Things which Kobe is superior at than Jordan:

1) Ballhandling. Kobe's handles are superior to MJs. Kobe's are borderline streetball wheras Jordan's handles are just normal.

Absolutely false. Kobe is flashier but Jordan protects the ball better. This is evident by his lower TO rate per game.


2) 3 point shooting/range

Somewhat true. This is probably the only thing he is better at.


3) Longevity (Kobe's longevity shits all over Jordan's and he didn't retire twice like Jordan to go play whiffle ball)

False. At age 35 Jordan is the best player in the world, kobe at 35 got injured. At age 39-40 Jordan averages 20+ppg on bad knees, let's see kobe do that. :no:


4) Offensive arsenal/moves (Kobe has more moves, combos, and counters than Jordan in part because he needs them because of slightly inferior athleticism than MJ)
False. Jordan is just more efficient, quicker, has higher basketball IQ than kobe. His moves look a lot less flashier than Kobe because he decides quickly and takes only a few moves to get his buckets. It doesn't mean he can't do the moves Kobe can. Watch Jordan's footwork and quickness in the post or from the triple threat. Jordan is elite in reading the defense. :no:


5) Meshing with All-star level teammates/sacrificing his game for the greater good. (everyone had to play 2nd fiddle to MJ, but playing with Kobe allowed guys like Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Bynum have their best individual and most successful seasons) Even Tex Winters said Jordan wouldn't have been able to play with Shaq because of his ego.

Kobe is better than Jordan at being a sidekick? Well no shit sherlock lol! :oldlol:


5) QBing/running the Triangle. Kobe is the best Triangle player of all time because he is the only player to have to simultaneously play both the Pippen (lead guard, facilitator role) and Jordan (4th quarter, crunch time go-to-guy) role.

lol! what a stupid argument. Jordan shouldered far more than kobe ever did for his teams and had more success. Unlike kobe, jordan deserved ALL his 9 defensive selections.


6) Playing against/beating superior competition. (Jordan never had to deal with another dynasty like the San Antonio Spurs, play in as stacked conference as the West, or play in an era with overlapping GOAT players: Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.

Pfffft! Kobe was a sidekick for his first 3 rings. The only team he beat in the finals as the main man that is considered good is the 10' Celtics. Hell he got swept by dirk in 2011. :oldlol:


7) Making Kwame into a serviceable NBA starter (where MJ failed miserably)

Hahahahahaha! MJ is a far better leader than Kobe ever was. Not even really debatable. :facepalm

[scandisk_]

Absolutely false. Kobe is flashier but Jordan protects the ball better. This is evident by his lower TO rate per game.



yep, better ballhandler MJ, better dribbling skills kobe. The ball on MJ's hands is very hard to hawk.

[JellyBean]

10 pounds, better shot selection, and a different era of basketball.

[ClipperRevival]

Things which Kobe is superior at than Jordan:

1) Ballhandling. Kobe's handles are superior to MJs. Kobe's are borderline streetball wheras Jordan's handles are just normal.

2) 3 point shooting/range

3) Longevity (Kobe's longevity shits all over Jordan's and he didn't retire twice like Jordan to go play whiffle ball)

4) Offensive arsenal/moves (Kobe has more moves, combos, and counters than Jordan in part because he needs them because of slightly inferior athleticism than MJ)

5) Meshing with All-star level teammates/sacrificing his game for the greater good. (everyone had to play 2nd fiddle to MJ, but playing with Kobe allowed guys like Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Bynum have their best individual and most successful seasons) Even Tex Winters said Jordan wouldn't have been able to play with Shaq because of his ego.

5) QBing/running the Triangle. Kobe is the best Triangle player of all time because he is the only player to have to simultaneously play both the Pippen (lead guard, facilitator role) and Jordan (4th quarter, crunch time go-to-guy) role.

6) Playing against/beating superior competition. (Jordan never had to deal with another dynasty like the San Antonio Spurs, play in as stacked conference as the West, or play in an era with overlapping GOAT players: Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.

7) Making Kwame into a serviceable NBA starter (where MJ failed miserably)

I'll give you 1, 2 and 4.

3) His longevity is overrated and in comparison to other greats, he really only had about 10 years as a truly elite player (2000 - 2010).

5) There is no evidence to suggest this is the case.

5a) There is no evidence to suggest this is the case.

6) Again, this is one of the those dumb arguments people bring up against MJ because MJ simply didn't lose, so of course he didn't face another dynasty. Because he kicked all of their asses. :oldlol: You really need to look up some of the teams he beat.

[ClipperRevival]

2006 Season:

81 Point Game (2nd highest mark, one of the greatest individual performances of all time)

62 in 3 quarters (TNT's All Decade Regular Season Performance selection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkLH2cteIoo))

35.4 PPG (highest average since Jordan's 37, only 5th player in NBA history to average 35+).

Epic Playoff Buzzer Beater vs Suns (considered one of the Greatest Moments in NBA Playoffs history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIVPe2hfeA))


2007 Season:

4 straight games 50+ points. (only other to do this is Wilt, who's records are suspect because of weak era and competition)


So if we eliminate Wilt's bs Kobe basically has the HIGHESt scoring performance of all time and the only player ever to score 50+ 4 straight games. HISTORIC LEGENDARY!!! :bowdown:

Learn basketball you pathetic LeBron Stanley scumbag piece of sh*t. :yaohappy: :hammertime:

And that's why I said that at his peak, he might've been a slightly more dangerous offensive force due to his range. But that's different from a game by game, season by season and career perspective, where MJ was much more consistently dominant and reliable.

[rmt]

Things which Kobe is superior at than Jordan:

1) Ballhandling. Kobe's handles are superior to MJs. Kobe's are borderline streetball wheras Jordan's handles are just normal.

2) 3 point shooting/range

3) Longevity (Kobe's longevity shits all over Jordan's and he didn't retire twice like Jordan to go play whiffle ball)

4) Offensive arsenal/moves (Kobe has more moves, combos, and counters than Jordan in part because he needs them because of slightly inferior athleticism than MJ)

5) Meshing with All-star level teammates/sacrificing his game for the greater good. (everyone had to play 2nd fiddle to MJ, but playing with Kobe allowed guys like Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Bynum have their best individual and most successful seasons) Even Tex Winters said Jordan wouldn't have been able to play with Shaq because of his ego.

5) QBing/running the Triangle. Kobe is the best Triangle player of all time because he is the only player to have to simultaneously play both the Pippen (lead guard, facilitator role) and Jordan (4th quarter, crunch time go-to-guy) role.

6) Playing against/beating superior competition. (Jordan never had to deal with another dynasty like the San Antonio Spurs, play in as stacked conference as the West, or play in an era with overlapping GOAT players: Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.

7) Making Kwame into a serviceable NBA starter (where MJ failed miserably)

Isn't it amazing that the Spurs are a dynasty when it suits Lakers fans (when debating MJ vs Kobe) but they'll deny it when debating Kobe vs Duncan?

Kobe's got nothing on MJ except 3 pt shooting.

[ClipperRevival]

No such thing as hanging in the air, since it is all determined by how high you can jump initially. MJ simply jumped higher.

I don't know. Something about MJ that seemed like he was able to defy gravity at times.

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't know. Something about MJ that seemed like he was able to defy gravity at times.

I think alot of it is perception. MJ jumping higher than most at his peak, if a defender jumped with him he was still ascending while they had reached their peak and on the way down, which led to the illusion of 'hangtime'. Technically he was in the air a split millisecond longer for that reason. Plus the contorting of his body and sleight of hand with the ball only added to the illusion.

[sportjames23]

MJ hang time vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8

[ClipperRevival]

I think alot of it is perception. MJ jumping higher than most at his peak, if a defender jumped with him he was still ascending while they had reached their peak and on the way down, which led to the illusion of 'hangtime'. Technically he was in the air a split millisecond longer for that reason. Plus the contorting of his body and sleight of hand with the ball only added to the illusion.

He did a lot of contorting of his body and sometimes, that can delay the landing. For instance, if you kick your legs out in the air, that's an anti-gravity action. Whatever the reason, the guy just looked like he could hang in the air a lot longer than anyone else.

[ClipperRevival]

Also forgot to mention that the biggest factor which helped MJ look like he defied gravity was his ability to still get off a shot right before he was about to land. Most guys can't do that. They are only comfortable getting a shot off at the apex of their jump. MJ had the ability to just hang and wait till the last second to release the shot. And that is a rare skill/talent in itself.

[triangleoffense]

too long: didn't read

short answer: 6/6 in the finals with 6/6 in FMVPs.

[SwayDizzle]

Also forgot to mention that the biggest factor which helped MJ look like he defied gravity was his ability to still get off a shot right before he was about to land. Most guys can't do that. They are only comfortable getting a shot off at the apex of their jump. MJ had the ability to just hang and wait till the last second to release the shot. And that is a rare skill/talent in itself.
very true. reminds me of that one Kobe layup vs the Magic in the finals

[Da_Realist]

4) Offensive arsenal/moves (Kobe has more moves, combos, and counters than Jordan in part because he needs them because of slightly inferior athleticism than MJ)

Not at all. Go back and watch early MJ (80's - 91/92). The stuff he did was insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7jyBN9_BQQ&t=11m45s

^^ Flash to the middle, ball fake, spin fake, hang in the air hesitation jump shot all net against the best or 2nd best perimeter defender in the game. It happened so fast you have to rewind to see the nuance. It would have taken Kobe a couple more seconds to pull this off and the beauty of the moves would have been appreciated at first sight.

Look at how fast this is --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y&t=0m55s
You're paying so much attention to the reverse layup, you don't see the quick head fake that got Dumars out of position in the first place -- unless you rewind it a few hundred times, which I'm sure Kobe DID just like the rest of us. This was way back in 1987, by the way.

By the time he returned from his 1st retirement, he slowed down enough for you to see the nuance he already had in his game before he retired.

He did 80% of what Kobe does but quicker and more decisive. The other 20%, he didn't need to do. At the same time, 20% of what MJ did were things Kobe could never do.

Watch Game 5 of the 1991 Finals vs LA. All game highlight show.

[Dragonyeuw]

Also forgot to mention that the biggest factor which helped MJ look like he defied gravity was his ability to still get off a shot right before he was about to land. Most guys can't do that. They are only comfortable getting a shot off at the apex of their jump. MJ had the ability to just hang and wait till the last second to release the shot. And that is a rare skill/talent in itself.

That's a major factor, just looking at that video. He put up shots after the defender had pretty much given up on the play( or had defended it as well as they could). Takes a lot of strength to even get off shots like that, in addition to touch/control. GOAT around the rim shotmaker IMO...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Skill wise they are not equal at all imo. In terms of footwork they are roughly equal, with possibly a small gap in either direction (I feel MJ was more natural and fluid with his footwork while Kobe was more "technical" if that makes any sense - Jordan's moves just seemed to flow out of him naturally, Kobe's seem studied/practiced).

Jordan was WORLDS better as an off the ball player and in terms of reading defenses and reacting appropriately and quickly. Better post player. Better rebounder in terms of nose for the ball and positioning. Better midrange game; better shooter inside 22 feet. Far better defensively in terms of footwork and positioning.

It's the small things that separate them (aside from the athletic advantages you mentioned), but those small things add up.

[ClipperRevival]

very true. reminds me of that one Kobe layup vs the Magic in the finals

This play right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamZf5u5jCw

[ClipperRevival]

That's a major factor, just looking at that video. He put up shots after the defender had pretty much given up on the play( or had defended it as well as they could). Takes a lot of strength to even get off shots like that, in addition to touch/control. GOAT around the rim shotmaker IMO...

Another factor is that he didn't waste any time while in the air. Meaning once he got up, he was always looking for an opening and trying to do something, right up until when he was about to land. That also adds to the perception of "hang time" because he was always doing something.

[Heilige]

game recognize game, Michael has always regarded Kobe as the son he never had

his spiritual successor, the way Goku took over after master roshi


Good point! At what point did Goku take over after Master Roshi?

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan also has 4 championship runs better than any Kobe has had.

[BBallZen83]

theres things jordan did better. theres things kobe did better



kobe fans can admit this. jordan fans can't

one side is still just as bitter, insecure, unfulfilled as the man himself. the other side is just as alpha/confident as the man himself


one guy freely admits the other would beat him in a 1 on 1

the other guy at age 21 said he'd kick the other guys ass in a 1 on 1

/thread

Wow, coming from one of the most seemingly sour grapes and insecure posters on here, you would think that you might have an ounce of self-awareness before posting this, in an effort to not look like a complete fool.

[Dro]

Wow, coming from one of the most seemingly sour grapes and insecure posters on here, you would think that you might have an ounce of self-awareness before posting this, in an effort to not look like a complete fool.
Beat me to it. The thread was going fine, everyone offering their opinions backed up with logical facts and he comes in, ironically bitter as hell posting some nonsense.

Kenneth, get out of here acting liking MJ couldn't hit a shot outside of 15 feet. You need to do some more homework and stop hating on the thread.......

Edit - just read somebody said Jordan's handles were just normal, smh. He doesn't have Kobe's handles but to say they were normal was a complete insult.....Jordan uses quick crossovers, behind the backs and spin moves and hesitations, LEGALLY. He's not carrying like everyone does today...He's efficient with his moves, usually one move, maybe 2 and the defender is beat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDESGrXI8jE

Check the move at 1:20...

[eliteballer]

Pfft:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

It's always the people who never saw Jordan in real-time and don't realize a lot of the highlight videos out there have messed up speeds/framerates which make Jordan and other players look more athletic and faster than they really were. Jim Cleamons even said Kobe would win a footrace between them.

[tpols]

Pfft:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

It's always the people who never saw Jordan in real-time and don't realize a lot of the highlight videos out there have messed up speeds/framerates which make Jordan and other players seem more athletic and faster than they really were.

kobe's the more creative in game dunker, mj is the more dominant straight poster dunker.. both amazing :applause:

[HOoopCityJones]

kobe's the more creative in game dunker, mj is the more dominant straight poster dunker.. both amazing :applause:

Kobe has put his fair share of stars on posters though.

[Mr Feeny]

kobe's the more creative in game dunker, mj is the more dominant straight poster dunker.. both amazing :applause:

You must be on some serious drugs to put Kobe anywhere NEAR Jordan on the creativity dunk ladder:cheers: He's not even close to J Richardson, Lebron James, T Mac or Iggy, nevermind Jordan:oldlol:

It's amazing what you Kobe stans manage to convince yourself:biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

You must be on some serious drugs to put Kobe anywhere NEAR Jordan on the creativity dunk ladder:cheers: He's not even close to J Richardson, Lebron James, T Mac or Iggy, nevermind Jordan:oldlol:

It's amazing what you Kobe stans manage to convince yourself:biggums:


This ni99a said Iggy. :lol

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe has put his fair share of stars on posters though.

And yet most people wouldn't have him in the top 20 in terms of poster dunks.

[Mr Feeny]

This ni99a said Iggy. :lol

Exactly right. Even Iggy destroys Kobe:lol

[Mr Feeny]

People are honestly getting into things you don't need to. You don't really need to go past defense here to tell what separates them: (there are two sides of the game after all...) Jordan played high quality, consistent defense throughout his career...Kobe didn't. That's just a simple fact...and don't bother bringing up those 1st team all defensive nods...nobody is fooled by those unless you are all over kobes nuts. It always amazes me how little knowledge some people have of the defensive end.

I dislike both players so I have no horse in this race. I could go on forever how Pippen is better defensively than Jordan, but in this particular match up Jordan annihilates Kobe as far defense goes. Considering his offensive numbers are better to, I don't understand how anyone can think Kobe is in Jordans league. Kobe was frankly never good enough to be compared to jordan the way he is.


This is a good post. I think you'll find that Kobe stans in particular tend to overrated their guy more than any other fanbase does with their favourite player. It's enjoyable watching delusion and meltdowns every day:rockon:

[HOoopCityJones]

Feeny , you just talkin bruh.

Yo ass only poke your head up when people talk about Kobe, display some actual basketball knowledge and people might take you serious. Iggy? fucc outta here.

You were better off saying that bullshit on your real account, but I get you're a bitch who needs to hide behind these facepalmy comments you make.

Wyoming must be full of inbreds such as yourself.

http://i.imgur.com/YfuW3.gif

[Cocaine80s]

Kobe could jump well of both 1 and 2 feet :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

Other than handles and three point shooting, MJ was better at every facet. But NOT BY a LOT. However much in the way Lebron, Wilt, and Shaq were SO PHYSICALLY DOMINANT at their positions, MJ was that at the SG. Kobe was a freak athlete himself, but not on the level of MJ in that regard. MJ's blend of speed, vertical, and big ass hands was SICK!!

MJ was also a more efficient scorer. He didn't take as many bad shots as Kobe. It seemed like peak MJ RARELY took bad shots. Kobe THROUGH THE DURATION of his career seemed like he would jack bad shots more than MJ ever did. The And 1 generation was in full effect. Guys like Kobe and AI exemplified it. Part of the pedigree was shaking guys up AND taking bad shots.

Of all the top 10 GOAT players, Kobe REDEFINED his position the LEAST! The reason why is because MJ broke the mold. The guys like Magic, Bird, Bron, Duncan, Wilt, and Kareem redefined their positions big time. Even Shaq did because we NEVER saw a player as big as Shaq (30-40 pounds heavier than Wilt) with that package of skill and athletic abiilty. Kobe being the CLOSEST THING TO MJ is a gift and a curse...

[Mr Feeny]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?
First post and probably best post in the thread.

[Cocaine80s]

Feeny , you just talkin bruh.

Yo ass only poke your head up when people talk about Kobe, display some actual basketball knowledge and people might take you serious. Iggy? fucc outta here.

You were better off saying that bullshit on your real account, but I get you're a bitch who needs to hide behind these facepalmy comments you make.

Wyoming must be full of inbreds such as yourself.

http://i.imgur.com/YfuW3.gif
You think Kobe is a better dunker than Iggy?

[HOoopCityJones]

And yet most people wouldn't have him in the top 20 in terms of poster dunks.
:roll:

This how I know you don't know shit.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ImfQpb7sctg/UwNEDx7rfCI/AAAAAAAABIk/yoYp_PVAFIU/s1600/Kobe+on+Yao+1.gif


http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kobe-dunks-in-dwight-howards-face-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif

If these ain't in the Top 20, you must be ****ing retarded. :oldlol:

[HOoopCityJones]

You think Kobe is a better dunker than Iggy?

Bro , Iggy is good, Kobe is better.

Especially in game posters, are you fuccing serious right now? I know ya hate Kobe with a passion but you can't be THIS deluded. :whatever:

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

Watch and educate yourself, ISHiots.

[HOoopCityJones]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/kobe-posterizing-okafor.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/892722162948f94b946328d5a48a363d/tumblr_mgqp6waLkx1rnt56ho1_500.gif

http://i34.tinypic.com/dfyhhc.jpg

[HOoopCityJones]

Iggy tho.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kobe-dunks-on-gerald-wallace-and-kris-humphries-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/tiUu2UgoWPwD6/giphy.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/insane-alley-oop-dunk-2001-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/nba/KobeBryantDUnkWizards.gif

[Cocaine80s]

Nah man, go and youtube Iggy's dunks

They are way better than the ones you posted

[tpols]

Kobe has put his fair share of stars on posters though.

oh yea.. mj's just the GOAT in your face dunker for a perimeter player, but since MJ it's been all kobe in that department with vince in second.. reason being Kobe's got poster dunking longevity, mashing on guys in old age, okafor, Josh Smith a few years ago among others when his athleticism was practically gone.

[raprap]

Kobe the Goat

[HOoopCityJones]

Nah man, go and youtube Iggy's dunks

They are way better than the ones you posted

http://media.giphy.com/media/QlRl2YrO7gI3C/giphy.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9uj394aSB1rnt56ho1_400.gif

https://38.media.tumblr.com/6c4864810916eaa29a2c04e3ef1373b3/tumblr_n626jfHPU91s3gys4o1_400.gif


Nah

[Cocaine80s]

You lucky no one gives enough shits about him to make more gifs... there would be a lot more

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/995865/iggy.gif
https://33.media.tumblr.com/6a7ab10c1d358cc9c713a64c45d49a11/tumblr_mqh3woRbqh1szoc93o1_400.gif
http://rs261.pbsrc.com/albums/ii52/mz3_76ers/iguodala.gif~c200

[Cali Syndicate]

You think Kobe is a better dunker than Iggy?

Kobe was a much better in game dunker than iggy ever was, in creativity and power.

[HOoopCityJones]

You lucky no one gives enough shits about him to make more gifs... there would be a lot more

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/995865/iggy.gif
https://33.media.tumblr.com/6a7ab10c1d358cc9c713a64c45d49a11/tumblr_mqh3woRbqh1szoc93o1_400.gif
http://rs261.pbsrc.com/albums/ii52/mz3_76ers/iguodala.gif~c200

:roll:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-16-2014/8zeAf_.gif

Go to sleep bruh.

[HOoopCityJones]

Notice most of Kobe's are contested. Didn't matter.

[MJistheGOAT]

And Kobe stans start to compare Kobe to Iggy LOL

Only things Kobe has over MJ are:

1. 3pt (style of league play a great factor)
2. Contested jumpers (because MJ could separate easier from his defender)
3. Footwork (same reason as above)
4. Longevity

All the rest is MJ >>> Kobe.

[kennethgriffin]

And Kobe stans start to compare Kobe to Iggy LOL

Only things Kobe has over MJ are:

1. 3pt (style of league play a great factor)
2. Contested jumpers (because MJ could separate easier from his defender)
3. Footwork (same reason as above)
4. Longevity

All the rest is MJ >>> Kobe.


kobe was the leading assist man for 5 world championship teams

pippen was the leading assist man every season chicago won a title


5. playmaker


kobe has 15 more game winning shots than jordan


6. clutch


kobe has almost as many points through 2 quarters as jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 55 to 61 ), with an 81 career high

7. streak scoring


kobe shoots left handed from anywhere

8. offhand


jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1


9. isolation





should i go on?

[scandisk_]

kobe was the leading assist man for 5 world championship teams

pippen was the leading assist man every season chicago won a title


5. playmaker
wut?

kobe has 15 more game winning shots than jordan


6. clutch
nope

kobe has almost as many points through 2 quarters as jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 55 to 61 ), with an 81 career high

7. streak scoring
sure

kobe shoots left handed from anywhere

8. offhand
wash MJ can finish with a left hand consistently

jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1


9. isolation
goes both ways




should i go on? need to stop actually.

[ShawkFactory]

kobe was the leading assist man for 5 world championship teams

pippen was the leading assist man every season chicago won a title


5. playmaker


kobe has 15 more game winning shots than jordan


6. clutch


kobe has almost as many points through 2 quarters as jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 55 to 61 ), with an 81 career high

7. streak scoring


kobe shoots left handed from anywhere

8. offhand


jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1


9. isolation





should i go on?
You've outdone yourself. :applause:

[sportjames23]

LOL, how this shit become Iggy vs Kobe dunks? :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

kobe was the leading assist man for 5 world championship teams

pippen was the leading assist man every season chicago won a title


5. playmaker


kobe has 15 more game winning shots than jordan


6. clutch


kobe has almost as many points through 2 quarters as jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 55 to 61 ), with an 81 career high

7. streak scoring


kobe shoots left handed from anywhere

8. offhand


jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1


9. isolation





should i go on?

Just reading this could fry someone's brain. Did you really say that you think Kobe is more clutch than Jordan? What planet are you on?

[Mr Feeny]

LOL, how this shit become Iggy vs Kobe dunks? :oldlol:

Kobe stans brought dunks into it to derail the thread, knowing that their idol is inferior to Jordan in every way :lebronamazed:

[JT123]

And Kobe stans start to compare Kobe to Iggy LOL

Only things Kobe has over MJ are:

1. 3pt (style of league play a great factor)
2. Contested jumpers (because MJ could separate easier from his defender)
3. Footwork (same reason as above)
4. Longevity

All the rest is MJ >>> Kobe.
I'm not sure about that one. We have to remember that MJ was the man from day 1 while Kobe was a role player his first 3 seasons. And Kobe has been a scrub the last 2 seasons, so although he will have a 20 year career he only had about 15 elite seasons. About the same as MJ no? :confusedshrug:
I would honestly take Wizards Jordan over current Kobe any day of the week.

[IllegalD]

Isn't it amazing that the Spurs are a dynasty when it suits Lakers fans (when debating MJ vs Kobe) but they'll deny it when debating Kobe vs Duncan?

Kobe's got nothing on MJ except 3 pt shooting.

I never questioned the Spurs as a dynasty f*ggot, get it right.

I do however rank them BELOW the Lakers 2000s dynasty.

But that's a story for another day...

[MJistheGOAT]

kobe was the leading assist man for 5 world championship teams

pippen was the leading assist man every season chicago won a title


5. playmaker


kobe has 15 more game winning shots than jordan


6. clutch


kobe has almost as many points through 2 quarters as jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 55 to 61 ), with an 81 career high

7. streak scoring


kobe shoots left handed from anywhere

8. offhand


jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1


9. isolation





should i go on?

CLUTCH? ISOLATION?

Stopped reading.
And what the hell is streak scoring??? I prefer consistency and efficiency, guess who

[TripleA]

It's the shoes. Michael Jordan did not become raw until he put on the Js.
:rockon:

[Mr Feeny]

I never questioned the Spurs as a dynasty f*ggot, get it right.

I do however rank them BELOW the Lakers 2000s dynasty.

But that's a story for another day...

Do you really have to insult everyone who disagrees with you?:oldlol:
We can all picture you typing away frantically on your keyboard, seething and reaching boiling point :lol
So, so easy :lebronamazed:

[IllegalD]

Do you really have to insult everyone who disagrees with you?:oldlol:
We can all picture you typing away frantically on your keyboard, seething and reaching boiling point :lol
So, so easy :lebronamazed:

No.

Only the ones who are f*ggots about it and spend 85% of their time on this board going into Kobe threads to spread their bs. :kobe:

[Mr Feeny]

No.

Only the ones who are f*ggots about it and spend 85% of their time on this board going into Kobe threads to spread their bs. :kobe:

Someone's melting down :lol

[aquaadverse]

Kobe admitted he tried to clone MJ's game. Dude came off the bench when he first came into the league. Had Prime Shaq, Phil Jackson etc... to thank for his success.

Keep staning.

[Mr Feeny]

]
Kobe admitted he tried to clone MJ's game. Dude came off the bench when he first came into the league. Had Prime Shaq, Phil Jackson etc... to thank for his success.

Keep staning.



http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/196fuarapyylmgif/k-bigpic.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

LOL, how this shit become Iggy vs Kobe dunks? :oldlol:

Because Feeny likes to get his shit pushed in by Kobe fans , so he says dumb shit on the same level as Kenneth. Iggy a better dunker than Kobe is laughable and proves that he lives in his mother's basement out in Wyoming fuccing his cousins.

[VeeCee15]

iggy jumps way higher than kobe and can do more technically difficult dunks cause of a superior vert.

has dunked enough/varied enough in game to justify being better in game dunker. But if they had a dunkoff/contest...Iggy >>>>>>>> kobe.

[JT123]

Because Feeny likes to get his shit pushed in by Kobe fans , so he says dumb shit on the same level as Kenneth. Iggy a better dunker than Kobe is laughable and proves that he lives in his mother's basement out in Wyoming fuccing his cousins.
:biggums: Did you watch Iggy dunk in his prime? I'm not talking about current Iggy, but the version that was on the Sixers. His dunks are much more exciting than any of Kobe's. Kobe dunks like a ballerina, whereas Iggy uses true power and force like any real alpha would. :bowdown:
Kobe has nothing and players like Iggy and Bran when it comes to dunking. :no:

[Straight_Ballin]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?

Anyone with the proper talent and build can mimic their game after someone that already did it. The irony of it all is that DESPITE Jordan laying down the foundation on how to achieve greatness and enough footage being available to serve as a blue print for Kobe's taking, Kobe STILL came up short even WITH all the advancements in sports and sports medicine. All this does is show how truly dominate Jordan was over the next guy. Hell, actual NBA players can't even go a week in todays game before someone mentions Jordan. I don't know if anyone's ever played against someone that has superior hang time, but I have. There's not a more helpless feeling in the game than when you jump up at the same time as another player and just watch them float in the air while your on your way down and they just shoot over your outstretched hand.

That feeling of helplessness DECIMATED his opponents and destroyed their morale.

[Mr Feeny]

:biggums: Did you watch Iggy dunk in his prime? I'm not talking about current Iggy, but the version that was on the Sixers. His dunks are much more exciting than any of Kobe's. Kobe dunks like a ballerina, whereas Iggy uses true power and force like any real alpha would. :bowdown:
Kobe has nothing and players like Iggy and Bran when it comes to dunking. :no:

Everyone knows that Kobe us nowhere near Iggy or Lebron when it comes to Duncan . Just let the tosser continue to embarass himself. It's so, sooo easy owning him because he's literally doing it to himself :lebronamazed:

[ClipperRevival]

Anyone with the proper talent and build can mimic their game after someone that already did it. The irony of it all is that DESPITE Jordan laying down the foundation on how to achieve greatness and enough footage being available to serve as a blue print for Kobe's taking, Kobe STILL came up short even WITH all the advancements in sports and sports medicine. All this does is show how truly dominate Jordan was over the next guy. Hell, actual NBA players can't even go a week in todays game before someone mentions Jordan. I don't know if anyone's ever played against someone that has superior hang time, but I have. There's not a more helpless feeling in the game than when you jump up at the same time as another player and just watch them float in the air while your on your way down and they just shoot over your outstretched hand.

That feeling of helplessness DECIMATED his opponents and destroyed their morale.

He was the perfect basketball player imo. 6'6", which is the perfect height to maximize the impact on the game because he was tall enough where his height/length could impact the game but also just small enough to possess the quickness/explosiveness of a smaller player. So he could get his shot off against the bigs down low and move around with the smalls in the perimeter. He could impact the game both horizontally and vertically.

He had the quickness, fluidity and coordination of a truly elite, explosive PG, not someone 6'6". There was no wasted motion. Every move he made was quick and explosive. And you add in his huge hands, off the charts stamina, ability to jump off of one or two feet and his ability to hang in the air and get off shots and his drive and determination to win and we probably won't see another like him for a long time. Maybe ever. Maybe he was "it" for eternity.

[RidonKs]

hands, head, quickness

[HOoopCityJones]

Everyone knows that Kobe us nowhere near Iggy or Lebron when it comes to Duncan . Just let the tosser continue to embarass himself. It's so, sooo easy owning him because he's literally doing it to himself :lebronamazed:

Stop typing while you're high off crack for one, second , no one here takes you seriously except brain dead Lebron stans. :lol

Talk to me when you stop hiding behind an alt cupcake.

[HOoopCityJones]

:biggums: Did you watch Iggy dunk in his prime? I'm not talking about current Iggy, but the version that was on the Sixers. His dunks are much more exciting than any of Kobe's. Kobe dunks like a ballerina, whereas Iggy uses true power and force like any real alpha would. :bowdown:
Kobe has nothing and players like Iggy and Bran when it comes to dunking. :no:


:kobe:

[Rooster]

:biggums: Did you watch Iggy dunk in his prime? I'm not talking about current Iggy, but the version that was on the Sixers. His dunks are much more exciting than any of Kobe's. Kobe dunks like a ballerina, whereas Iggy uses true power and force like any real alpha would. :bowdown:
Kobe has nothing and players like Iggy and Bran when it comes to dunking. :no:


If you're right then Lebron should be alpha enough to participate in the slam dunk contest. :rolleyes:

[Hey Yo]

Kobe admitted he tried to clone MJ's game. Dude came off the bench when he first came into the league. Had Prime Shaq, Phil Jackson etc... to thank for his success.

Keep staning.
and MJ the person

http://basket-infos.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Kobe-Bryant-chicago-bulls-michael-jordan-jersey-2.jpg



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2e/d6/90/2ed6903369ba550fd03be4f965474d1c.jpg

"I wanna be Mike!!!!!"

[smoovegittar]

MJ is mentally much stronger. In a battle of wills, Kobe crumbles first, imo.

[sportjames23]

He was the perfect basketball player imo. 6'6", which is the perfect height to maximize the impact on the game because he was tall enough where his height/length could impact the game but also just small enough to possess the quickness/explosiveness of a smaller player. So he could get his shot off against the bigs down low and move around with the smalls in the perimeter. He could impact the game both horizontally and vertically.

He had the quickness, fluidity and coordination of a truly elite, explosive PG, not someone 6'6". There was no wasted motion. Every move he made was quick and explosive. And you add in his huge hands, off the charts stamina, ability to jump off of one or two feet and his ability to hang in the air and get off shots and his drive and determination to win and we probably won't see another like him for a long time. Maybe ever. Maybe he was "it" for eternity.

Sums it all up. :cheers:

[AlphaWolf24]

To me Jordan is such a unique and mind boggling phenomenon. So simply compared to any athlete in history, not just Kobe. His reflex and spontaneous instantaneous decision making. When Jordan was playing baseball, in his 30s, some doctor that performs test on baseball players, future MLB player, or perhaps MLB players, that rates their reflex. He tested Jordan, and out of the thousands of players that he had tested, 30+ year old Jordan scored higher than all, or higher than all except one. And it just made so much sense, of his reactions to circumstances.

The other amazing thing about Jordan was his mind. I won't go into that.

But also, forget about his clutch shooting. In critical moments, the guy simply never made mistakes. It's normal and an accepted thing to see Lebron, Kobe, CP3, etc, make occasional mistakes in critical moments. And it's not considered a big deal because they're human.

But outside of Jordan making that mistake Orlando when he came back from baseball, Jordan never made mistakes in critical moments.

An example is Kobe getting blocked by Turkoglu. I could never imagine Jordan getting blocked by Turkoglu during such a critical moment. The guy was just at another level in terms of concentration and focus.

What about that game as a Wizard, when he banged his head visibly hard against the floor, but was so focused that he did not react until the whistle was blown. Flu game, the guy is just not a normal person.


ehl...oh.....ehl....


Jordan never made mistakes in the clutch?......Jordan never got his shit swatted?

- Jordan was an amazing player .... but much like all the great players who played in the NBA...he made mistakes and got his shot blocked many times....but he also played a long time ago and is now a Living Legend.

- He was cut from his HS team and had to work hard just to make it.....no not really he played all 4 years is High School and was an all american and got a full scholarship to UNC

- Jordan never made mistakes....never got his shot blocked.......no not really....He missed tons of clutch shots and used to get his shot swatted by F'ing Danny Ainge on the regular....

doesn't take away anything from him.....he was playing against the best players in the world.

[FKAri]

MJ is mentally much stronger. In a battle of wills, Kobe crumbles first, imo.

I disagree.

Kobe is more stubborn than MJ (ultimately that decides battles of wills).
MJ was willing to trust others more.
Kobe probably worked harder than MJ too (I don't think anyone has been a harder worker from what I've seen).
Kobe's a psychopath (beyond a reasonable doubt)
MJ just might be a psycopath.

MJ's just more gifted as an basketball athlete; so not just quickness/strength but his huge hands made a big difference

[ShawkFactory]

I disagree.

Kobe is more stubborn than MJ (ultimately that decides battles of wills).
MJ was willing to trust others more.
Kobe probably worked harder than MJ too (I don't think anyone has been a harder worker from what I've seen).
Kobe's a psychopath (beyond a reasonable doubt)
MJ just might be a psycopath.

MJ's just more gifted as an basketball athlete; so not just quickness/strength but his huge hands made a big difference
I disagree with everything but the last little bit. Mindset-wise, I think they are almost basically a wash. They're both equally cursed as Jordan stated one time. No one worked harder than either of them, no one was more distant than either of them, and no one had that psychopathic will to succeed that both of them had. To try to say who was more this or that in certain areas regarding that big picture seems pointless.

Jordan had the benefit of having his "stubborn" years on less talented teams be early in his career. Kobe had to deal with that in the middle of his prime. Had Jordan been saddled with a squad like Kobe in 06/07 in the middle of HIS prime I would honestly expect similar play...with similar results. He got lucky getting thrown Pippen and Phil as he came into his own as a player and leader.

The real difference between the two of them is that Jordan was just a more talented and dominant player on the court. Not by much of course, but the difference is absolutely there. For as much of a genius as Kobe is on the court, Jordan was maybe even more so.

Plus he could hang for like an hour so that helps.

[ClipperRevival]

I don't think anyone worked harder than Kobe. MJ absolutely loves golf and he played that all the time in the offseason. I don't think Kobe ever had a side passion outside of basketball. Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that he was the most skilled 2 guard ever.

[jstern]

In a battle of wills, just look at the Jordan revenge threads that was once on ISH, with a detail list of game after game of Jordan being slighted, and how he reacted. No one is out willing Jordan. Especially when Kobe did not just try to mold Jordan's game, be like Mike, but also tried to mold Jordan's mentality. (Hey, it worked for him, but there's a reason why a lot of people think Kobe is contrived.)

Or Phil saying that Kobe is more of a rhythm player, that will catch fire and score 40+ in 5 games in a row, but Jordan would go on retribution games, where he would completely destroy a team based on a slight. That ability of Jordan shows a very unique will power.

[Kobe_6/8]

Or Phil saying that Kobe is more of a rhythm player, that will catch fire and score 40+ in 5 games in a row, but Jordan would go on retribution games, where he would completely destroy a team based on a slight. That ability of Jordan shows a very unique will power.

I think Jordan usually destroyed individual players based on a slight, because he was mad at them more than their team.

It definitely shows a strong will power.

[jstern]

I think Jordan usually destroyed individual players based on a slight, because he was mad at them more than their team.

It definitely shows a strong will power.

The game that pops into my mind right now is the game that Jordan scored 51 as a Wizard, after the media spent the whole day talking about how he was too old and had lost it. So it could be a number of different things. An opposing player, a guy in the stand, or the media. Van Gundy talking crap, etc.

[3ball]

Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that he was the most skilled 2 guard ever.




This is subjective, depending on what your definition of "skills" is.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif


But what truly separated Jordan, was his shot-making ability inside 15 feet - unmatched in the history of the game.. Phil Jackson said something like "Oscar was amazing shotmaker in the paint, but MJ was by far the best of all time" or something pretty close to that.. he was talking about wing players.

As the GIF above shows, MJ made some things look so easy, you don't realize that's the best offense you've ever seen.

A lot of people think Lebron is a fantastic shotmaker in the paint, but he plays in the 3-point era, which opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to occupy the 3-point line.. With the middle of the floor open, penetrators can beat perimeter defenders or mismatched shading bigs, and then face and open paint while defenders chase from behind and the sides.. This has inflated everyone's at-rim percentages:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif



Otoh, the middle of the floor remained crowded at all times in previous eras because no one shot 3-pointers - this forced wing players like MJ into a lot of mid-range pull-ups because the sheer number of players always standing in the paint frequently sealed the paint.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif


Also, it's evident that without 3-pointers in previous eras, there was no one spacing the weakside, so defenders could remain on the strongside, eliminating the need to flood.. With all defenders on the strongside, wing players must make plays in a smaller space.. Otoh, in today's game, the weakside is always spaced to reduce the number of strongside defenders and give players more room to make a play.

The above situation of overcrowded paints caused by lack of 3-point shooting/spacing, was exacerbated by legal-paint-camping, which was allowable under certain common conditions pre-2005.. Otoh, in today's game, the new defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping and is designed to "open up the game", according to the NBA... The NBA says the absence of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would allow "frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.".. See 2nd last question:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
.

[jstern]

ehl...oh.....ehl....


Jordan never made mistakes in the clutch?......Jordan never got his shit swatted?

- Jordan was an amazing player .... but much like all the great players who played in the NBA...he made mistakes and got his shot blocked many times....but he also played a long time ago and is now a Living Legend.

- He was cut from his HS team and had to work hard just to make it.....no not really he played all 4 years is High School and was an all american and got a full scholarship to UNC

- Jordan never made mistakes....never got his shot blocked.......no not really....He missed tons of clutch shots and used to get his shot swatted by F'ing Danny Ainge on the regular....

doesn't take away anything from him.....he was playing against the best players in the world.

I just saw your comment now. Compared to other players, Jordan rarely made mistakes in the clutch. I'm not talking about missing or making shots, I'm not talking about getting blocked throughout the course of a game, I'm not talking about not making his HS team. I'm talking about clutch NBA situations. The guy was at a different level of focus. No butter fingers, no stupid mental mistakes.

[Paul George 24]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?
basketball iq,kobe will never match

[Dragonyeuw]

He got lucky getting thrown Pippen and Phil as he came into his own as a player and leader.



Luck swings the other way too. Starting your career with 24 year old Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and quality role players is a pretty good head start. I bet most people couldn't name 2 players in the Bulls starting lineup when MJ came into the league, without googling it. It's not as if Pip was some surefire bet coming into the league, he could have been a star or just as easily a bust.

Which is also what I find humorous about this '1-9' thing with MJ, or that he did nothing without Pip. Scottie was a 7 ppg bench warmer in 1988 when MJ led the Bulls to 50 wins and the second round. He was hardly a 'great' player when the Bulls went to the conference finals in 89 and 90. He really didn't become a truly reliable second option, in terms of championship level play and mental toughness, till 91 when the Bulls broke through. Which, let me clarify, Pippen was absolutely crucial to those title teams but he didnt become *the Scottie Pippen* we now know until at least 4-5 years into his career. Some people here act like Scottie came into the league and was an instant force.

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't think anyone worked harder than Kobe. MJ absolutely loves golf and he played that all the time in the offseason. I don't think Kobe ever had a side passion outside of basketball. Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that he was the most skilled 2 guard ever.

This is something that I hear often, but needs to be qualified further. I think MJ and Kobe each have advantages over the other, but ultimately the application of skills is a skill within itself. It's like I often hear that Kobe has 'more moves'; subjective as that may be, let's throw a number on that. Kobe has 9 moves, MJ has 8, but MJ employed those 8 more efficiently and consistently, making for a more consistently dominant player overall.

I think the fairest conclusion when comparing them is that Kobe was more prolific outside 20 feet, but in the midrange and around the rim MJ was a more money player. MJ was a dominant interior force as a shooting guard in an era of shotblocking bigmen. He took a higher percentage of 'high percentage' shots leading to slightly more volume on better efficiency. But to compare them skill for skill is splitting hairs, otherwise MJ had certain physical advantages that he could use without having to employ the little nuances that Kobe needed due to being less gifted athletically.

[Angel Face]

There's nothing Kobe did better except maybe 3point shooting but it was because MJ said it himself that he doesn't prefer shooting 3s as he felt like it hindered his overall game.

Also, some people here think that Kobe is the better tough shot maker, simply a big NO. Better dumb shot maker Yes. MJ has insane body control which allowed him to finish toughest acrobatic lay-ups ever which gave us an illusion that he was literally hanging in the air. MJ also hit tough jumpers but due to his better shot selection, he didn't result to jacking up fadeaway 3s.

Footwork is a wash but MJ creates better separation with his footwork.

Ball handling, Kobe's dribbles are flashier but MJ was more efficient. He used a lot of fakes, jukes, footwork to make his opponents out of position, sometimes one or two dribbles are enough for him to take a good look to shoot the ball or drive. The best thing about MJ was that he rarely over dribbled. His explosive first step can also attribute to this.

Mid Range Js, MJ was a mid range assassin. I remember someone here posted his stats from 92 season where his mid range jumpers fg% was at around 50 - 51%. That's elite level.

Fadeaway Js and Post game, both are elite in this category, but one thing you'll notice is that MJ can create better separation and has more lift when taking fadeaway jumpers.

And the obvious, MJ is the more naturally gifted athlete. Frobe was athletic but MJ is on another level.

[AlphaWolf24]

I just saw your comment now. Compared to other players, Jordan rarely made mistakes in the clutch. I'm not talking about missing or making shots, I'm not talking about getting blocked throughout the course of a game, I'm not talking about not making his HS team. I'm talking about clutch NBA situations. The guy was at a different level of focus. No butter fingers, no stupid mental mistakes.

I'm not saying MJ wasn't an amazing clutch player....IMO he is the best clutch player ever....

but you said he never made mistakes in the clutch...:lol

Dude played well over a thousand NBA games...and thousands of minutes

Did MJ get swatted? absolutely.....Did he lose the ball occasionally?...absolutely...Did he keep playing at a highlevel and never quit ?..absolutely....he was focused or motivated to win.

every player makes mistakes....including MJ.

[Da_Realist]

MJ worked harder to get good shots. He was more determined to get a better shot than the defense wanted him to have. He was more willing to fight for position so that he didn't have to dance as much when he received the ball. Kobe's game came alive when he received the ball, MJ was just as active without it.

[ClipperRevival]

This is something that I hear often, but needs to be qualified further. I think MJ and Kobe each have advantages over the other, but ultimately the application of skills is a skill within itself. It's like I often hear that Kobe has 'more moves'; subjective as that may be, let's throw a number on that. Kobe has 9 moves, MJ has 8, but MJ employed those 8 more efficiently and consistently, making for a more consistently dominant player overall.

I think the fairest conclusion when comparing them is that Kobe was more prolific outside 20 feet, but in the midrange and around the rim MJ was a more money player. MJ was a dominant interior force as a shooting guard in an era of shotblocking bigmen. He took a higher percentage of 'high percentage' shots leading to slightly more volume on better efficiency. But to compare them skill for skill is splitting hairs, otherwise MJ had certain physical advantages that he could use without having to employ the little nuances that Kobe needed due to being less gifted athletically.

True. Had MJ been less gifted physically, he might've had to be more refined with his iso game. So he simply worked with that talents he was given and it worked for him. And in the grand scheme of things, he was much more efficient than Kobe over his career and his offense was less hit/miss on a game by game basis. That's why he kills Kobe in career 30+ and 40+ games. At his peak, Kobe might've been a bit more dangerous given his 3 point shooting but over their careers, MJ was more efficient and consistent and produced offensively at a noticeably higher level.

[Dragonyeuw]

True. Had MJ been less gifted physically, he might've had to be more refined with his iso game. So he simply worked with that talents he was given and it worked for him. And in the grand scheme of things, he was much more efficient than Kobe over his career and his offense was less hit/miss on a game by game basis. That's why he kills Kobe in career 30+ and 40+ games. At his peak, Kobe might've been a bit more dangerous given his 3 point shooting but over their careers, MJ was more efficient and consistent and produced offensively at a noticeably higher level.

Thing is, MJ's iso game was extremely well-refined, technically flawless, as is Kobe's but stylistically different. Kobe was more 'skilled' at using the dribble to create open looks but as stated before, Kobe comes from the and-1 era of showboat dribbling, which many of the post-MJ great shooting guards displayed to various degrees. Kobe's game in term of flash was very much a product of the era he came along in. MJ's moves only seem simpler in the sense that he used subtle body movements to fake out defenders as opposed to putting on a dribbling exhibition, but that was greatly aided by an incredible first step.