Swap Kobe and MJ's careers

[Fire Colangelo]

Put Kobe on those 1990s Bulls teams and how far do they go? Assuming Kobe gets drafted to the Bulls as a 18 year old in 84. Assuming Kobe doesn't retire in 94 ala Jordan, would they 4 peat?


Put MJ on those Lakers teams with Shaq, how far do they go? Assuming MJ gets drafted to the Lakers as a 21 year old in 97.

Would MJ be able to co-exist with Shaq? Would they win more or less?

[guy]

Put Kobe on those 1990s Bulls teams and how far do they go? Assuming Kobe gets drafted to the Bulls as a 18 year old in 84. Assuming Kobe doesn't retire in 94 ala Jordan, would they 4 peat?


Put MJ on those Lakers teams with Shaq, how far do they go? Assuming MJ gets drafted to the Lakers as a 21 year old in 97.

Would MJ be able to co-exist with Shaq? Would they win more or less?

Assuming everything around them develops the same and they go through the same personal obstacles they had at the same age i.e. injuries, gambling, rape case, etc. Kobe wins 3-4 titles, and Jordan wins 9-11 titles.

Kobe wins in 91, 94, 96. Jordan wins from 98-04 and 09-10. They would overlap so it's a toss up between the Bulls and Lakers in 97, and 08 is a toss up between the Lakers and Celtics.

[3ball]

According to Phil Jackson, MJ would win more...

He's explained many many many times in interviews and in his books that MJ was much better.. And he's explained it in very detailed terms... Here's a snippet:


Phil Jackson:


"One of the biggest differences from my perspective was Michael's superior skills as a leader. Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones." ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNka7qwOB4&t=0m10s

[ShawkFactory]

Does mike still retire twice?

[ClipperRevival]

MJ was clearly the better, more impactful player so we would have to assume that MJ wins more than 5 and Kobe wins less than 6. I honestly don't know if Kobe/Pip/Grant is enough to win. Kobe didn't possess MJ's maniacal D and ability to cover ground. So his teams would not have been as dynamic on D. Maybe he gets a couple from 1986 -1993. He wins nothing from 1996-1998 as Kobe's play declined considerably at age 33.

MJ and Shaq together? Come on. Mj would've found a way to corral Shaq in and they would've co-existed. They might've done something ridiculous like win 8 or something.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe would win 7 on those chicago teams

91
92
93
94
96
97
98




Jordan and shaq would never be able to co exist.

Jordan demanded way too many shots at a young age. Shaq woulda thrown that bald **** off the team by 1999

[Beastmode88]

Kobe would win 7 on those chicago teams

91
92
93
94
96
97
98




Jordan and shaq would never be able to co exist.

Jordan demanded way too many shots at a young age. Shaq woulda thrown that bald **** off the team by 1999

are you saying kobe is a beta sidekick? :lol :lol

[Fire Colangelo]

According to Phil Jackson, MJ would win more...

He's explained many many many times in interviews and in his books that MJ was much better.. And he's explained it in very detailed terms... Here's a snippet:


Phil Jackson:


"One of the biggest differences from my perspective was Michael's superior skills as a leader. Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones." ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNka7qwOB4&t=0m10s

MJ is undoubtedly the better player, but would he be able to coexist with Shaq? If so how well/how long?

[ekosky]

MJ: 7 championships
Kobe: 2 at most, realistically, probably only 1.

[Nastradamus]

Kobe would have a higher TS%(era and Kobe played both Pippen and MJ's roles in terms of scoring and initiating in the triangle) and the Bulls the same amount of rings. MJ is the better player, mostly due to defense, but those Bulls teams were so stacked.

[Fire Colangelo]

MJ was clearly the better, more impactful player so we would have to assume that MJ wins more than 5 and Kobe wins less than 6. I honestly don't know if Kobe/Pip/Grant is enough to win. Kobe didn't possess MJ's maniacal D and ability to cover ground. So his teams would not have been as dynamic on D. Maybe he gets a couple from 1986 -1993. He wins nothing from 1996-1998 as Kobe's play declined considerably at age 33.

MJ and Shaq together? Come on. Mj would've found a way to corral Shaq in and they would've co-existed. They might've done something ridiculous like win 8 or something.

Actually, in this hypothetical Kobe would be 29 years old in the peak of his career during the 1996 season. Not to mention we're assuming he does retire in 94 and 95, which would be the equilavant of his 06 and 07 season respectively.

Also, what makes you think MJ would've found a way to "corral" Shaq?

[kennethgriffin]

are you saying kobe is a beta sidekick? :lol :lol


kobes just better at balancing his averages to please others... jordan couldnt even bare to be 2nd in the league for ppg due to his insecurities. he sure as hell wouldnt settle for 2nd in ppg on his own team. even if he had 28 or 29ppg like kobe in the 2001 season/playoffs



jordan was lucky to have nothing but dudes who wanted to suck his c*ck


if he had another alpha on the team it woulda blown up and the team would go down the toilet

[tpols]

MJ stans:

MJ dominates with shaq, wins 7+ titles


Reality:

MJ could never take even the thought of losing a FMVP and status as alpha to another man .. the problem here isn't that shaq > MJ.. the problem is that shaq had a massive advantage at the C spot in each and every Finals series in which he won FMVP. While the guard competition was actually top notch.. a complete reversal from what was seen in the western conference.


MJ stans:

Kobe couldn't lead a team like MJ could, and provide toughness mike did to win 6 titles in the 90s


Reality:

Michael Jordan had some of the most stacked help of all time in an expansion era.. He essentially had what Lebron on the Heat had.. atg second option playing a bunch of 2010 era Indiana pacer-esque squads who were very short on talent and tried to overcome it with bully ball.. which ultimately fails in the end because refs can bring it to a halt.. and refs of course can be persuaded to tilt a certain way by the guys at the top, controlling the money, the direction of the league etc

It very likely would've been much of the same results minus maybe one ring or so.

[andgar923]

Kobe doesn't win a single thing.

[BIG FURB]

MJ's addicted to winning people. Him playing with Shaq is like being allowed to stack the deck in cards, he's gonna love that shit. You really think he's gonna let some petty ego trip get in the way of him winning titles? Ya getting it confused people, Kobe's a wannabe MJ, MJ's not a wannabe kobe, he don't have kobe's flaws

[Young X]

Reality:

Michael Jordan had some of the most stacked help of all time in an expansion era.. He essentially had what Lebron on the Heat had.. atg second option playing a bunch of 2010 era Indiana pacer-esque squads who were very short on talent and tried to overcome it with bully ball.. which ultimately fails in the end because refs can bring it to a halt.. and refs of course can be persuaded to tilt a certain way by the guys at the top, controlling the money, the direction of the league etc

It very likely would've been much of the same results minus maybe one ring or so.Stop it.

The 2010's era Pacers are nowhere near as good as the the Cavs and Knicks teams the Bulls faced or the '97 Heat and '98 Pacers.

I could maybe understand if you compared the Bulls' competition to the '13-'15 Grizzlies but the f*cking Pacers? The Roy Hibbert Pacers? That's just disrespectful.

And there's no way the results are the same with Kobe instead of MJ. Bulls almost lost half of those series, there's no way they win a similar amount with a clearly inferior player. F*ck outta here.

[ISHGoat]

A realistic over/under would be 3.5

about half the time he wins 4 or more

half the time he wins 3 or less

[tpols]

Stop it.

The 2010's era Pacers are nowhere near as good as the the Cavs and Knicks teams the Bulls faced or the '97 Heat and '98 Pacers.

I could maybe understand if you compared the Bulls' competition to the '13-'15 Grizzlies but the f*cking Pacers? The Roy Hibbert Pacers? That's just disrespectful.

And there's no way the results are the same with Kobe instead of MJ. Bulls almost lost half of those series, there's no way they win a similar amount with a clearly inferior player. F*ck outta here.

Sorry Dude.. Ewing's obviously much better than Roy, but Ewing didn't have a Paul George. He had a John Starks.. David West was also arguably better than Mason. They were similar teams.. tough grind it out, lacking in star power.. Ewing had no Pippen. His team had to play bully ball to compete in the same fashion indy had to play bully ball to compete with Miami.

It's a completely valid comparison in matchups. (though Knicks > pacers, bulls are also > heat)


If Ewing had Pippen and Grant, and MJ had Starks, X-man, mason, Oakley, whoever.. it'd very likely be the knicks hoisting banners.

[DonDadda59]

Put Kobe on those 1990s Bulls teams and how far do they go? Assuming Kobe gets drafted to the Bulls as a 18 year old in 84. Assuming Kobe doesn't retire in 94 ala Jordan, would they 4 peat?


Put MJ on those Lakers teams with Shaq, how far do they go? Assuming MJ gets drafted to the Lakers as a 21 year old in 97.

Would MJ be able to co-exist with Shaq? Would they win more or less?

So basically Bean gets drafted by a 27 win team as an 18 year old 7 PPG bench scrub who doesn't even crack the 20 PPG barrier until his 4th season and has to spend the next decade on a squad without an all star/ATG level big man? Sounds like a recipe for success. :yaohappy:

Meanwhile Jordan, a stud from the jump capable of putting up 28/6/6 from day one, is drafted by a 55-60 win caliber team without him. Where the monster in the middle will ensure he has the sort of offensive freedom he never saw in reality.

Advantage Bean, obviously.

[guy]

MJ stans:

MJ dominates with shaq, wins 7+ titles


Reality:

MJ could never take even the thought of losing a FMVP and status as alpha to another man .. the problem here isn't that shaq > MJ.. the problem is that shaq had a massive advantage at the C spot in each and every Finals series in which he won FMVP. While the guard competition was actually top notch.. a complete reversal from what was seen in the western conference.


MJ stans:

Kobe couldn't lead a team like MJ could, and provide toughness mike did to win 6 titles in the 90s


Reality:

Michael Jordan had some of the most stacked help of all time in an expansion era.. He essentially had what Lebron on the Heat had.. atg second option playing a bunch of 2010 era Indiana pacer-esque squads who were very short on talent and tried to overcome it with bully ball.. which ultimately fails in the end because refs can bring it to a halt.. and refs of course can be persuaded to tilt a certain way by the guys at the top, controlling the money, the direction of the league etc

It very likely would've been much of the same results minus maybe one ring or so.

This is a joke.

The real reality is the following:

There's more evidence to suggest that Jordan would've had less of a problem playing with Shaq then Kobe did as opposed to more of a problem.

The guard competition in the finals being top notch means nothing (was Reggie miller and Allen Iverson holding Kobe down defensively :oldlol: ), especially since we are talking about two of the greatest players ever.

No supporting cast can be that stacked when almost everyone on it is relatively replaceable and that superstar is most of the time required to put up all-time great playoff runs for them to win i.e. they aren't winning if he isn't putting up around at least 30 ppg

Those Indiana Pacer teams are arguably the most fragile elite teams ever and have no business being compared to those 90s teams.

The Bulls didn't just play elite "bully ball" teams.

The main reason the difference in rings is so much is that besides the fact that Jordan was just a flat out better player, year by year the difference is larger and larger the earlier in their careers i.e. Jordan was an elite player right away while Kobe took 3-4 years, AND many of Kobe's "down" years i.e. 2004 and 2005 would've coincided with the Bulls dynasty and some of their tougher playoff runs.

[tpols]

No supporting cast can be that stacked when almost everyone on it is relatively replaceable

exhibit A

MJ stan stating a top 5 SF of all time, the greatest perimeter defender of all time, the best rebounder of all time, and the GOAT coach are all "relatively replaceable"

[3ball]

(though Knicks > pacers, bulls are also > heat)


your talk of expansion is bullshit - there were 30 teams then and 450 players, and 30 teams now and 450 players -

what's the difference - seriously, explain how this is different.

also, MJ swept Shaq/Penny... Are you trying to say Hibbert/George > Shaq/Penny?

also, that Knicks team was ridiculously deep - if you replaced Pippen/Grant and stiff like Wennington and Will Perdue with the Knicks deep lineup, the Bulls would've been WAY BETTER by a mile.
.

[guy]

exhibit A

MJ stan stating a top 5 SF of all time, the greatest perimeter defender of all time, the best rebounder of all time, and the GOAT coach are all "relatively replaceable"

You don't know what "almost" means? And yes Rodman as evidence by the fact that he wasn't there for half of them is relatively replaceable. And why we are talking about coaches???

[3ball]

Tpols, your talk of expansion is bullshit - there were 30 teams then and 450 players, and 30 teams now and 450 players -

what's the difference - seriously, explain how this is different.

also, MJ swept Shaq/Penny... Are you trying to say Hibbert/George > Shaq/Penny?

also, that Knicks team was ridiculously deep - if you replaced Pippen/Grant and stiff like Wennington and Will Perdue with the Knicks deep lineup, the Bulls would've been WAY BETTER by a mile.

.
Tpols - do you think that when expansion occurred, the NBA had to pick up bums off the street to fill the rosters?

The spots were filled with PROFESSIONAL players from the CBA and USBL (which both became the D-League - this is historical fact - the NBA turned those two leagues into the D-league - look on Wikipedia)... Also, more players were also drafted from college and taken from overseason professional leagues JUST LIKE TODAY.

So your notion that expansion is a knock on the 90's is poppycock and ignorance... The reality is that BOTH the 90's and today's game are weaker than the 80's, since the top 450- players make the league in a 30-team league, but only the top 300 make it in a 20-team league like the 80's.

[DonDadda59]

exhibit A

MJ stan stating a top 5 SF of all time, the greatest perimeter defender of all time, the best rebounder of all time, and the GOAT coach are all "relatively replaceable"

Unless Jordan played with Bird, Bron, Dr. J, Baylor, Havlicek (and a few others I could name), then I have to ask who you're talking about in the bold. :confusedshrug:

[ClipperRevival]

Actually, in this hypothetical Kobe would be 29 years old in the peak of his career during the 1996 season. Not to mention we're assuming he does retire in 94 and 95, which would be the equilavant of his 06 and 07 season respectively.

Also, what makes you think MJ would've found a way to "corral" Shaq?

MJ wanted too win above all else. With PJ as HC, he would've co-existed. The best perimeter player ever and maybe the most dominant inside scorer ever? It's a wrap. Just comes down to finding complimentary pieces. Those are easy to find.

And I think given how good Shaq was at his peak, he might've pryed a few fmvp away from MJ. And I think MJ wouldn't have minded because real recognize real and game recognize game and MJ would've accept the fact that Shaq was that good and derserved a few fmvps. So as long as MJ is allowed to maximize his talents on the perimeter, MJ would've been fine with Shaq dominating down low. Nothing better than this combo.

No way any team in that era beats this duo. Way too much dominance on the perimeter and down low. It would've been historic.

[oarabbus]

Kobe would win 7 on those chicago teams

91
92
93
94
96
97
98




Jordan and shaq would never be able to co exist.

Jordan demanded way too many shots at a young age. Shaq woulda thrown that bald **** off the team by 1999


Wow, Kenneth is actually right. MJ is the most overrated player of all time. He's still the GOAT, but he's also the most overrated ever. Kobrick could probably have gunned for a 7th title in that weak era.

lol

[bond10]

MJ's addicted to winning people. Him playing with Shaq is like being allowed to stack the deck in cards, he's gonna love that shit. You really think he's gonna let some petty ego trip get in the way of him winning titles? Ya getting it confused people, Kobe's a wannabe MJ, MJ's not a wannabe kobe, he don't have kobe's flaws

This

Kobe was about his individual gains/achievements.
Jordan wanted to win every game. He would've been fine with Shaq.

In a clutch situation MJ would pass to an open Paxson or Kukoc for a three.
Kobe on the other hand would take a stupid ass contested 3 pointer with 4 guys on him.

http://i.imgur.com/YiAqmJG.jpg

[Fire Colangelo]

MJ wanted too win above all else. With PJ as HC, he would've co-existed. The best perimeter player ever and maybe the most dominant inside scorer ever? It's a wrap. Just comes down to finding complimentary pieces. Those are easy to find.

And I think given how good Shaq was at his peak, he might've pryed a few fmvp away from MJ. And I think MJ wouldn't have minded because real recognize real and game recognize game and MJ would've accept the fact that Shaq was that good and derserved a few fmvps. So as long as MJ is allowed to maximize his talents on the perimeter, MJ would've been fine with Shaq dominating down low. Nothing better than this combo.

No way any team in that era beats this duo. Way too much dominance on the perimeter and down low. It would've been historic.

You're taking assumptions from Mike's perspective, what about Shaq's?

I read somewhere that MJ had a huge ego and wanted to be the most important person wherever he went. Wouldn't Shaq somewhat hinder that?

Do you think they start winning as soon as they draft MJ? How long would they realistically win until?

Kobe with the Bulls would have a good run from 91-98 (Equivalent to his 03-10 season), which years do you think he'd win?

[Fire Colangelo]

So basically Bean gets drafted by a 27 win team as an 18 year old 7 PPG bench scrub who doesn't even crack the 20 PPG barrier until his 4th season and has to spend the next decade on a squad without an all star/ATG level big man? Sounds like a recipe for success. :yaohappy:

Meanwhile Jordan, a stud from the jump capable of putting up 28/6/6 from day one, is drafted by a 55-60 win caliber team without him. Where the monster in the middle will ensure he has the sort of offensive freedom he never saw in reality.

Advantage Bean, obviously.

He was a 7ppg bench scrub on the Lakers because they already had an all star in Eddie Jones. He would've averaged somewhere close to 15/5/5 (on really shitty percentages :lol ) as a rookie had he been given the green light.

Then again, would Jordan be given the green light on the Lakers?

I don't doubt that Jordan + Shaq would do great things if everything falls into place. But would they be able to co-exist?

Also, I don't see why people think Kobe wouldn't succeed in MJ's shoes? He would be entering his prime in the 91 season (equivalent to his 03 season where he averaged 30/7/6), is there a reason why he wouldn't win? What about 94 and 95?
Or 96-98 in which Kobe would be at his peak of his career (equivalent to his 08-10 seasons)?

[ShawkFactory]

kobes just better at balancing his averages to please others... jordan couldnt even bare to be 2nd in the league for ppg due to his insecurities. he sure as hell wouldnt settle for 2nd in ppg on his own team. even if he had 28 or 29ppg like kobe in the 2001 season/playoffs



jordan was lucky to have nothing but dudes who wanted to suck his c*ck


if he had another alpha on the team it woulda blown up and the team would go down the toilet
Shaq is a fvcking baby

[ClipperRevival]

You're taking assumptions from Mike's perspective, what about Shaq's?

I read somewhere that MJ had a huge ego and wanted to be the most important person wherever he went. Wouldn't Shaq somewhat hinder that?

Do you think they start winning as soon as they draft MJ? How long would they realistically win until?

Kobe with the Bulls would have a good run from 91-98 (Equivalent to his 03-10 season), which years do you think he'd win?

Shaq got along with everyone. He just didn't get along with Kobe. Kobe was the loner on the Lakers team and everyone knows this. MJ and Shaq would've realized they needed each other to win. Kobe and Shaq realized this also but Kobe just didn't buy in. He alienated himself from the team and when it came down for management to choose between Kobe and Shaq, the obvious choice was Kobe because he was 6 years younger. I think it might've taken them a year or two to get to jell on the court but once they did, it would've been a wrap on the league.

As far as what Kobe would've done, I still don't know. Like I said, MJ was just a better player on a game by game, season by season and career perspective. He was more impactful, more consistently dominant and a much more active and better defender. I don't know if Kobe/Pip/Grant is enough. Maybe Kobe/Pip/Rodman has a better chance and they win a couple.

[tpols]

Shaq got along with everyone. .

yea... shaq gets along with everyone. He never ever starts beef with anyone, very respectable, humble down to earth guy.



:rolleyes:

[Myth]

Is Luc Longley Kobe's big?

[ClipperRevival]

yea... shaq gets along with everyone. He never ever starts beef with anyone, very respectable, humble down to earth guy.



:rolleyes:

What other teammate did he have a beef with like Kobe where they had to choose between the two?

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe wins 1 in 1996.

He's not gonna deliver on such a clutch basis and come through like MJ did in '97 and '98, 91-93 are out of the discussion. '94 would be his next best shot.

[tpols]

What other teammate did he have a beef with like Kobe where they had to choose between the two?

Shaq had beef with Wade and Riley (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/6/1/2201480/shaq-retired-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade) as well...



When a power struggle resulted in Shaq being traded to the Miami Heat, the drama didn't end between Shaq and Kobe or between Shaq and his new co-star. Shaq teamed up with Dwyane Wade to lead the Heat on a great run, and together they led Miami to the 2006 championship. But the team fell apart quickly, and Shaq turned on Heat architect Pat Riley ... which caused Wade to turn on Shaq. A bad break-up led to another O'Neal trade, this time to the Phoenix Suns.

Shaq even said on TNT a little while back "D-Wade doesnt mind being the other guy. He's been the other guy for all his championships"

:oldlol: :facepalm



Shaq in his prime would've beefed with anyone trying to take his shine.. so long as they were good enough to do it.