Offseason Grade

[el gringos]

A huge offseason for the Knicks has come and gone. How do you grade the results?

Draft: A

Porzingis was the right pick @4 and trading thj for a guy like grant is just icing on the cake.


Knick Free Agents: D-

Phil really over estimated the work he would do around the league and shot himself in the foot by placing no value in his own guys. Basically having the opportunity to prob bring bargnani back for cheap and not was a mistake.


FA's around the league: C+

When you give away jr smith under the assumption that you will do better w that 7 mill in free agency and then you sign afflalo for 8 that's a pretty bad start. The d will and o'quinn signings were good, afflalo deal bad, and as for the big marquee signing that you've been waiting years for in Robin Lopez you get a very good role player at a primary option price. Hopefully he just plays the role of 4-5-6th best player and doesn't think he needs to be a second option guy. Hey atleast the Knicks didn't sign Wes Mathews



Overall: C

Obviously I'd have done much better, but this fa is what most of you might have done. Draft was against the grain big time but has many already oming around.


Should've went w smith, smith, smith, bargnani, o'quinn, dwill, monta Ellis. I would have picked porzingis and either grant or Powell so no complains on draft.

[kshutts1]

I'm not sure you have any concept of "bbiq" and how it relates to chemistry and on-court production. But I applaud your dedication to the Knicks.

I'd give their offseason a B-. Trading Melo or Porzingis (for a deal) would increase the ranking to an A-, most likely.

The draft, in a vacuum, seems to have been a B+. Hard to tell, though, until the season starts and we see what we have.

Free agents were an A, IMO. The Knicks clearly didn't get the big names, but they didn't panic and give bad deals to bad players. Instead, they gave market-value deals (or less) to good players that fit a long-term vision.

The only anomaly is the aforementioned Melo. He doesn't fit with a "long term vision" type of team. I love the guy, but I really think he needs to go.

[smoovegittar]

Took you 3 weeks to get over losing your fav. players... understandable. Hopefully, you'll start to acknowledge that the team was in need of defensive role players with size instead of low IQ chuckers.

I'll be interested on your take of how Bargnani will help the Nets over the bridge. Meanwhile, you will see Melo's benefit of having rebounders and shot-blockers around him. This year will be better than you esteem.

BTW ~

Draft - B+
Free agency - B
Overall - B

When the smoke clears, clearer heads will see Phil's making the right moves for a respectable franchize to arise.

[knickballer]

Knicks weren't going to compete this season no matter what moves Phill could have made. Kudos to Phil not following in typical NY behavior in trading the top pick for some overrated combo guard which we barely would have made the 8th seed. He made moves that gave the Knicks a chance moving forward and spent the cap room wisely. The FA guys aren't anything special but they are some role players/depth guys that the knicks can use for the future and there might be a chance that Williams can fulfill some of his potential(won't happen but there's a chance)

Alot of Knick fans are in the win now state of mind and that's comical. Knicks had 0 chance winning coming into the offseason and fans think drafting Winslow or trading the pick is gonna change that?

Draft A. Porizingis is a nice pick and he'll help us this year more than Winslow could. The upside is obviously greater with Por. Getting Grant for Hardaway is a steal. We've seen what Hardaway can do and it's time to move on. The Spanish center may return dividends in the future.

FA B. We didn't get the big name players but these guys didn't want to come. Some people criticize Phil for not sweet talking them in signing but I don't see how that's his fault. Even that some of these guys have limitations.. In the meantime he made some low risk signings that don't mortgage the future and some guys that can potentially take the next steps in their career if given a bigger role.

Phil had a good offseason. People who are saying otherwise are delusional who want to mortgage everything to compete for the 8th seed.

[Rameek]

at the end of the day grade the team on talent. we dont have a clue what those draft picks will turn out to be. its an F.

[smoovegittar]

at the end of the day grade the team on talent. we dont have a clue what those draft picks will turn out to be. its an F.

You just contradicted yourself.

[Rameek]

You just contradicted yourself.

No one can grade draft picks at this point because they have 0 minutes in the NBA.

So grade the rest of the roster until they play. It's an F.

[smoovegittar]

No one can grade draft picks at this point because they have 0 minutes in the NBA.

So grade the rest of the roster until they play. It's an F.


I respectfully disagree. We'll see what happens come November -

[Rameek]

I respectfully disagree. We'll see what happens come November -
Based on what u see on this roster how can anyone justify a D grade or better?

Last year the team had 1 NBA talent.

This year has 2.5 NBA talents Melo, Robin, 6th man Affalo. Please show me where where this team isnt at the bottom 3rd.

[franchize]

The draft remains to be seen. I wasn't a big fan of the KP pick but I'm over it. I think he certainly has talent but I also think he's a project. Free agency in my opinion is a D.

Robin Lopez- is ok, but he's not a 13 mill a year player. I don't care what type of inflation the new TV money caused. I don't care if his market value increased because of it. Robin Lopez, under no circumstances, is a 13 mill a year player. Period. It's funny how our "lazy SF who supposedly does nothing but score" outrebounds this guy. Lopez is a solid defender. Pretty good offensive rebounder. But he's just not a 13 million dollar a year player. Decent acquisition but we overpaid.

Aaron Afflalo- I like his game. I think he's a really good fit for our team and with Melo. They've played together. He compliments Melo well. That being said, we gave him a player option for the 2nd year, which to me almost nullifies the significance of this signing. We're not winning anything significant this year. If he plays poorly, we're stuck with him. If he plays well, we're back at square one because he'll more than likely opt out. PO 2 year contracts are even worse than one year deals.

Derrick Williams- hasn't lived up to expectations at all, but for the price, he's worth giving him a try to be coached up. He's young, athletic and versatile. But then...we give him a PO as well, thus nullifying the bargain he possibly could be if he pans out. If he plays to his potential and meshes well here, he's going to want to get paid and we'll be back to square one. If he continues to be a disappointment, we're stuck with him for another year.

Kyle O'Quinn- I liked this signing. He came here for decent money. We signed him long term. He's not a big difference maker, but he's a solid player signed to a good contract. Local guy who enjoys doing dirty work.

Lou Amundson and Lance Thomas- I put these 2 together for a reason. They're damn near the same player. Thomas is a little better offensively IMO. This was an epic failure in my opinion. You don't need two of these guys on your roster. More importantly, they are vet min guys. You can ALWAYS find guys like this in the offseason. We had 3.2 and the MLE to use and we blew the 3.2 on two 10 day contract type of guys. They aren't guys who have leverage to ask for more. If they don't take a vet min deal, you tell them to kick rocks. Ndour proved that there are guys like that available. In fact, I think Ndour is better than both. WE could have used that 3.2 on a better player and either signed them to min deal or convinced Ndour to come here in a situation where he'd have a better shot at making the roster. Just because a guy is considered a hustle guy, it doesn't make him automatically a good signing.

Sasha Vujacic- If this is true woooo. How creative. How innovative. Hire a bunch of former players and try to recreate your glory days. I don't care if it's just a camp deal. Someone needs to tell Al Bundy this aint Polk High lol

Other than that, we whiffed on all of the big name FA we sought, which is ok. I'm not a "sign the biggest name you can find" type of guy; contrary to the belief of knickballer and others. That is what has gotten us in trouble. In fact, that is the exact reason why PHil is here getting triple what his peers at his position are getting despite never having done his job previously. There are better ways to spend money wisely. I didn't want DJ at all. He doesn't fit what we do. Monroe to me was an good fit because he's a really good passer. The Aldridge shit pissed me off. Not because we didn't get him but the way we handled it. I'm ok with not getting him. I didn't think he was coming here anyway. I don't know who cancelled what at the end of the day, but if it was over Phil's insistence of Aldridge playing center, then he's a moron for that. The guy isn't a C anyway and you're going to miss out on meeting with arguably the best FA on the market because you're THAT stubborn huh?

Another thing that nobody is bringing up is Phil's interaction with the media. This BS diary shit he's doing with ESPN needs to stop. I don't care about your feelings of JR as a player or any other current or former Knick. Keep your mouth shut. Even Phil's die hard supporters would be hard pressed to tell me how this benefits our team. This tell all nonsense is completely unprofessional. I can't see a FA looking at this and saying "yea I can't wait to play for that guy. If I have a slump, he's really gonna run to ESPN like a HS girl. That's exactly what I need."

[smoovegittar]

Based on what u see on this roster how can anyone justify a D grade or better?

Last year the team had 1 NBA talent.

This year has 2.5 NBA talents Melo, Robin, 6th man Affalo. Please show me where where this team isnt at the bottom 3rd.

It's not going to be so much about talent as it is teamwork, imo. These guys are going to come together. I'm also a big believer in these rookies we drafted.

Shane Larkin was our backup pointguard last year. OMG. We had no size whatsoever. We also had a number of malcontents that saw the writing on the wall.

I'm a big believer in teamwork. As I said earlier, we'll see what unfolds.

[Rameek]

It's not going to be so much about talent as it is teamwork, imo. These guys are going to come together. I'm also a big believer in these rookies we drafted.

Shane Larkin was our backup pointguard last year. OMG. We had no size whatsoever. We also had a number of malcontents that saw the writing on the wall.

I'm a big believer in teamwork. As I said earlier, we'll see what unfolds.
Teamwork means nothing without talent.

[smoovegittar]

Teamwork means nothing without talent.

If you play in the NBA, you have talent. Apparently, you don't believe in what Phil's trying to do. All good though - I respect your opinion.

[Rameek]

If you play in the NBA, you have talent. Apparently, you don't believe in what Phil's trying to do. All good though - I respect your opinion.
It has nothing to do with believing or not. He sold a bill of goods and reneged. A year and half later at 12 mill a year what has been accomplished. What is the signature move so far.

You have not said one thing that you can attribute to Big Chief accomplishing or has shown a plan for the future. So there has been nothing so far and the roster is still baron.

Talent wins in the NBA and the Coaching/System wins Championships. What is the ground work so far?

There are no draft picks next year so what are we going to be selling to potential free agents?

[smoovegittar]

It has nothing to do with believing or not. He sold a bill of goods and reneged. A year and half later at 12 mill a year what has been accomplished. What is the signature move so far.

You have not said one thing that you can attribute to Big Chief accomplishing or has shown a plan for the future. So there has been nothing so far and the roster is still baron.

Talent wins in the NBA and the Coaching/System wins Championships. What is the ground work so far?

There are no draft picks next year so what are we going to be selling to potential free agents?

So you're saying we shouldn't have gutted that crap team that was on the floor the last 2 seasons? You think everything was to be accomplished in 2 years time? I'm not sure you realize this is a rebuild that takes time. Yes, time - as in , years. You have a 1 year coach that had shit players - you want me to grade him now? You expected upper tier free agents to be attracted to a laughing stock franchise this season? The roster is not "baron". We have role players on the defensive end to get our only current star to perform better.

I don't understand what you expected to happen. But you needn't explain yourself. I'm out -

[bluechox2]

draft:
based on draft position and player available, we get an A
based on overall talent in the whole draft B+
free agency:
based on who wanted to come here A (we showed bargnani the door)
based on who was available F
Offseason:
roster based on what we had last year vs this year: B-
Will we compete: TBD

[el gringos]

So you're saying we shouldn't have gutted that crap team that was on the floor the last 2 seasons? You think everything was to be accomplished in 2 years time? I'm not sure you realize this is a rebuild that takes time. Yes, time - as in , years. You have a 1 year coach that had shit players - you want me to grade him now? You expected upper tier free agents to be attracted to a laughing stock franchise this season? The roster is not "baron". We have role players on the defensive end to get our only current star to perform better.

I don't understand what you expected to happen. But you needn't explain yourself. I'm out -

Almost everyone here expected upper tier free agents to go to the Knicks. It was a lock. Are you saying you didn't?


Will there be enough cap space for Durant next year?

[Rameek]

So you're saying we shouldn't have gutted that crap team that was on the floor the last 2 seasons? You think everything was to be accomplished in 2 years time? I'm not sure you realize this is a rebuild that takes time. Yes, time - as in , years. You have a 1 year coach that had shit players - you want me to grade him now? You expected upper tier free agents to be attracted to a laughing stock franchise this season? The roster is not "baron". We have role players on the defensive end to get our only current star to perform better.

I don't understand what you expected to happen. But you needn't explain yourself. I'm out -
This isnt a bashing on anyone this isnt a personal attack.

Who can honestly give these positive grades for a draft when no one knows who Porzy is even with summer league it doesnt mean much. Grant seems ok decent enough college career (Lillard 4 year college kid I like that personally).

Looking at the roster outside of Robin who was NBA starter? He played 25 to 30 minutes because most teams play small. Aaron was a 6th man gunner he is NBA old no upside. Derrick was a bust and failure.

Where are all these glorious grades coming from based on what? Having slightly better players from last year to this year which he chose anyways for the most part?

If anything at this point if its going to be a rebuild then rebuild trade Melo and let the chips fall where they may.

To gringos I didnt even want upper tier FA's but I didnt expect so many role players to get paid so much. It turns out so many players wanted to ride the coat tails of another player (not name Melo) instead of coming here to be to be counted on.... we all know that Alpha Beta stuff. Most players are similar to Melo they want to be Beta's not the guy not a leader. Which is fine.

To this point for me the grade is an F which you asked. Last year an F (from last year to this year what did we add besides 2 draft picks?). This offseason an F we have those 2 draft picks Robin Derrick Affalo. Still a terrible roster no carry over from last year to this year to get really excited about.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/New-York-Knicks/20/depth-charts

[smoovegittar]

Almost everyone here expected upper tier free agents to go to the Knicks. It was a lock. Are you saying you didn't?


Will there be enough cap space for Durant next year?

I didn't expect upper tier free agents... don't fault me for hoping. You can dig if you like to prove me incorrect.

I don't expect Durant.

[smoovegittar]

Perhaps by giving said questions a "B" average, I'm giving in to a positive mental vibe, which is what this organization needs. A facelift.

I go with the credibility that Phil Jackson is one of the best basketball minds in the biz. And I'm tired of bashing the organization that I've loved since the 70's.

Now, let's go out there in October and get some victories. :rockon:

[kshutts1]

@Rameek,

I graded the Knicks highly for one reason, and one reason only... every single move they made.. literally, every single one.. was very obviously geared towards the future.

It's the first semblance of this organization working towards an actual, attainable, realistic goal in years.

They swung and they missed on big-name FAs. They didn't panic; they made solid signings of players that either had plenty of upside, or were great role players. They did that rather than pay a middling player (Monroe, Middleton) near max money.

I call that a win.

And to talk about Porz specifically... I'm not a huge fan of his. But the league was/is, and that's what's important. Knicks got good value on a player that a lot of people see becoming a successful player. They essentially took the best player available, who just happened to be a project, then they continued to build for the future.

[Da KO King]

This team's management can only be evaluated once you decide whether you are grading based reality or expectation caused by salary.

The reality is that the team was bad before Jackson came along so his potentially slightly improved team is an upgrade. Expectation is with his incredible salary he would have a workable plan that would see this team make significant improvements each off-season.

[Da KO King]

Draft (only area where there aren't two different views on grading to me): Knicks took a high risk, high reward project and made a trade for a career backup guy.

Anyone that tells you Kristaps Porzingis is anything more than a project is so incredibly optimistic that it makes their opinion untrustworthy. Won't get into too much detail about the process of evaluating or developing players. Just have to be patient and see if Porzingis work ethic and this coaching staff can reach his full potential.

Jerian Grant is a career backup in the NBA. He lacks the ball-skills/shooting and athleticism to really be more than that.

A draft can't accurately be evaluated for 3 years but on face value they didn't blow it completely. I'd give them a B-.


Free Agency:

(Salary based expectation) As the highest paid executive in the league and a guy that talked about free agency, Phil Jackson was expected to have a plan. He was expected to build a competitive, though not title contending, team.

If competitive was the goal, this team is teetering the line that is failure.

The Knicks missed every single key free agent. Some didn't even take meetings with the club. So this started bad for them.

They players they did get are nothing special. With the exception of Robin Lopez, not a single player the Knicks acquired is top 20 at his position. That's simply not going to cut it when your entire offseason plan was centered around free agency.

To make the problem even more glaring is that Aaron Afflalo, Robin Lopez, and Derrick Williams all got more money than their productivity suggest is warranted. I get that the money flowed this summer but that isn't an excuse to be a lemur instead of a leader.

None of these guys is the worst at their position and all bring a needed skill. So keeping that in mind I'd say D+.


Reality based evaluation
The Knicks suck and Phil Jackson is an arrogant jackhole who rubs people the wrong way. Expecting top tier free agents to sign up for that is foolish to be honest. The Knicks never had a chance at the bigger name guys and needed to build with the next tier of guys.

The Knicks made the most of the next tier guys. Though none are long term key guys, every acquisition can contribute to the team.

Afflalo is one the wrong side of his prime and is overmatched athletically most nights. Still, the guy plays hard on defense and gets open on offense. Long as that's all he's being asked to do, he should be fine.

Robin Lopez bring nothing offensively except solid screens. Defensively he's not great as a "traditional" rim protector, but he does a good job protecting in the way that Marc Gasol does by remaining active and being in position.

Kyle O'Quinn brings a physicality that the team lacks. O'Quinn will be good on the boards for the team.

Derrick Williams will add athleticism and versatility to the Forward position. One of the best ways to help a rookie PG get acclimated to the NBA is put him in some transition situations with athletes on the wings. Williams is one of those athletic wings.

Once you understand that the Knicks had no chance at any of those elite prospects you realize that the Knicks did pretty well for their circumstances. The contracts are higher that they should be but not high enough that giving them a B- feels improper.

Overall I'd give the Knicks a C (Salary) or B-(reality).

[Rameek]

I do like the new signing of Kevin Seraphin.

[kshutts1]

I do like the new signing of Kevin Seraphin.
What makes that signing different than Derrick Williams? Two young players that have some NBA skills and/or athleticism but have never put it together.

[Da KO King]

What makes that signing different than Derrick Williams? Two young players that have some NBA skills and/or athleticism but have never put it together.
Actually Seraphin will be much more productive than Williams. Seraphin is a solid post scorer. Williams doesn't really have a reliable offensive skill at the moment.

[kshutts1]

Actually Seraphin will be much more productive than Williams. Seraphin is a solid post scorer. Williams doesn't really have a reliable offensive skill at the moment.
Productive in what sense? I see Williams getting more PT and having better stats, but obviously there are other ways to judge production.

[Da KO King]

Productive in what sense? I see Williams getting more PT and having better stats, but obviously there are other ways to judge production.
I probably should have said "useful" instead of productive.

[Rameek]

I probably should have said "useful" instead of productive.
No productive is accurate. Guy can come off the bench and score. Can play PF and Center grab a respectable amount of rebounds. Not a defender though. He's been more useful and productive than Derrick.

Franchise seen him play since he's in Washington. I don't know why he didn't get more run in Washington honestly. Every year they seemed to bring in a veteran to take away his minutes.

I wouldn't be shocked if he was made a starter all things being equal at worse first big off the bench.

[franchize]

No productive is accurate. Guy can come off the bench and score. Can play PF and Center grab a respectable amount of rebounds. Not a defender though. He's been more useful and productive than Derrick.

Franchise seen him play since he's in Washington. I don't know why he didn't get more run in Washington honestly. Every year they seemed to bring in a veteran to take away his minutes.

I wouldn't be shocked if he was made a starter all things being equal at worse first big off the bench.

Because the Wizards had a log jam at PF. NeNe, Humphries, Gooden, Seraphin, Dejuan Blair. Seraphin gave them good minutes though. I like the signing, but once again...it's a 1 year deal. :confusedshrug:

[franchize]

Can someone explain to me this stance on our FA moves that we're "building towards the future." Seems like everyone who supports Phil keeps saying this. Only 2 of the free agents we have are guaranteed beyond this year. This is a serious question. Not rhetorical hate. I'm really trying to understand.

Seraphin- 1 year deal
Vujacic- 1 year deal
Thomas- 1 year deal
Amundson- 1 year deal
Afflalo- Player Option after this year
Williams- Player Option after this year

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but couldn't we essentially be starting from scratch next offseason if Afflalo and Williams opt out? :confusedshrug:

[Da KO King]

Can someone explain to me this stance on our FA moves that we're "building towards the future." Seems like everyone who supports Phil keeps saying this. Only 2 of the free agents we have are guaranteed beyond this year. This is a serious question. Not rhetorical hate. I'm really trying to understand.

Seraphin- 1 year deal
Vujacic- 1 year deal
Thomas- 1 year deal
Amundson- 1 year deal
Afflalo- Player Option after this year
Williams- Player Option after this year

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but couldn't we essentially be starting from scratch next offseason if Afflalo and Williams opt out? :confusedshrug:You are 100% correct. Phil Jackson's incompetence is being protected by Knick fans passion and faith.

[Rameek]

You are 100% correct. Phil Jackson's incompetence is being protected by Knick fans passion and faith.
No one will want to come via free agency if there aren't any players on the roster. This will be a repeat summer of failure banking on the free agency class with no one here. Unless Porzy turns into Dirk and Grant into Westbrook.

[smoovegittar]

And if somehow, against the Basketball Gods they gel, Melo buys in with the freedom he'll have this year and Jax shows he can draft talent no one thinks the Knicks could buy another good player.

...cause Jax is a fool and doesn't know anything.

Some of ya'll fans, man..:rolleyes:

[Da KO King]

And if somehow, against the Basketball Gods they gel, Melo buys in with the freedom he'll have this year and Jax shows he can draft talent no one thinks the Knicks could buy another good player.

...cause Jax is a fool and doesn't know anything.

Some of ya'll fans, man..:rolleyes:
So we're going to ignore the fact that pro sports is about relationships and his personality/comments alienate him. Strictly basketball speaking......

The team has it's (future) hopes built around a rookie PG who doesn't project as a career starter, a rookie (project) big who skill-set is best as a screener (on and off ball) as opposed to the high and low post like the Triangle will demand of him, and a second year combo guard with no vision.

Looking only at what will be on the court there is no reason to be optimistic.

[kshutts1]

The player options are dumb, I'll give you that. I didn't know about them when I was defending those signings.
I still say the signings are good, just not as good as I thought.

As for building towards the future? Whether the Knicks have the same players or not, the types of signings are what I agree with... younger players with some upside on relatively cheap deals, OR good, stable vets on solid deals.

After doing that this offseason, I fully expect Phil to do something similar next year... if he has tons of cap space, swing for the fences again, but barring that, I no longer expect him to make panic signings.

[smoovegittar]

So we're going to ignore the fact that pro sports is about relationships and his personality/comments alienate him. Strictly basketball speaking......

The team has it's (future) hopes built around a rookie PG who doesn't project as a career starter, a rookie (project) big who skill-set is best as a screener (on and off ball) as opposed to the high and low post like the Triangle will demand of him, and a second year combo guard with no vision.

Looking only at what will be on the court there is no reason to be optimistic.

...and that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, am optimistic.

We shall agree to disagree.

[Da KO King]

...and that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, am optimistic.

We shall agree to disagree.
How did your optimism work out?