Players who were capable of putting him bigger numbers than they did

[RRR3]

Obviously someone who comes to mind is Manu Gin

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen

[triangleoffense]

Scottie Pippen
Agreed.. although if he did he would probably lose some of his 12 (i think) 1st team defensive team awards.

Also Worthy, Mchale, Parish all come into mind.

[RRR3]

Agreed.. although if he did he would probably lose some of his 12 (i think) 1st team defensive team awards.

Also Worthy, Mchale, Parish all come into mind.
You gotta be careful talking up Parish and McHale. ShaqisGoat will come in and tell you are an idiot and they were scrubs who Bird made relevant because he is Jesus himself.

[ekosky]

LeBron could average 35-40 ppg if he wanted to.

[Fallen Angel]

Tim Duncan

[GreggPopazit]

Any non-role player on the Spurs:

Duncan
Manu
Parker
Kawhi

[ClipperRevival]

Scottie Pippen

FAIL.

Pippen was "the man", in his prime and had his own team to put up the numbers in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95. He peaked at 22+ ppg.

[kshutts1]

Pretty much every player, ever.

[Fallen Angel]

FAIL.

Pippen was "the man", in his prime and had his own team to put up the numbers in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95. He peaked at 22+ ppg.
His numbers barely changed between Jordan's era and Jordan's retirement. The triangle offense held him back.

[ClipperRevival]

His numbers barely changed between Jordan's era and Jordan's retirement. The triangle offense held him back.

The triangle sure didn't hold MJ back seeing that he led the league in scoring 3 years prior to Pippen's lead role and 3 years after that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The triangle sure didn't hold MJ back seeing that he led the league in scoring 3 years prior to Pippen's lead role and 3 years after that.

That's Jordan though. Arguably the greatest scorer ever.

Pippen had his best numbers without Mike, so its pretty safe to assume without another superstar playing alongside him, if he didn't give a shit about defense or wasn't as committed to that end by way of being one of the greatest defenders in history, he could have put up ~25ppg.

He had the skills to do it, for sure.

[HoopologyPhD]

Bosh, Westbrook, almost every single NBA player not in a contract year or on a winning team.

[Mr Feeny]

I think players like Ray Allen during his Celtics stint and Rip Hamilton. Happy to run around screens and space the floor and play off the ball for the benefit of the team.

Most of all, I'd say Duncan. He might be one of the more unselfish basketball players both on the court and off of it, that we've ever seen.

[HylianNightmare]

Jeremy lin

[ClipperRevival]

That's Jordan though. Arguably the greatest scorer ever.

Pippen had his best numbers without Mike, so its pretty safe to assume without another superstar playing alongside him, if he didn't give a shit about defense or wasn't as committed to that end by way of being one of the greatest defenders in history, he could have put up ~25ppg.

He had the skills to do it, for sure.

The triangle didn't hold back Kobe either. I always say the cream rises to the top. Meaning if you are what you say you are, you will eventually do it on the court. Pip was a great all around player and his almost 2 seasons as "the man" proved who he was. Not a dominant offensive player but a great all around player.

[Mr Feeny]

The triangle didn't hold back Kobe either. I always say the cream rises to the top. Meaning if you are what you say you are, you will eventually do it on the court. Pip was a great all around player and his almost 2 seasons as "the man" proved who he was. Not a dominant offensive player but a great all around player.

I think most would agree with this.

[Fallen Angel]

When the triangle is built around a specific player then he'll get the touches you're used to. The triangle never was centered around Scottie Pippen, look at his FGAs between the years he had with Mike and without.

[ClipperRevival]

When the triangle is built around a specific player then he'll get the touches you're used to. The triangle never was centered around Scottie Pippen, look at his FGAs between the years he had with Mike and without.

The triangle is never based around a specific player. Besides, without MJ, he was the team's primary attack player. Why didn't he do more? He certainly had the chance too. His FGA numbers with and without MJ were similar. Why is that? It's because he's not a dominant scorer who can carry an offense. He was a great, all around player who likes to blend in. He PROVED this when he had his own team for almost 2 years. I don't know what more evidence you want.

The triangle didn't hold Pippen back. Pippen held Pippen back because he never had that iso scoring game to begin with.

[G0ATbe]

Kobe Bryant.

[ImKobe]

Kobe from 96-04

give him a situation where the franchise is building around his talents from the jump and he'd definitely have averaged 30+ a game in 00-02 as the sole #1 option.

Westbrook & KD if they were drafted on different teams

Penny if he wasn't a sidekick to Shaq in the mid 90s

Larry Bird & Magic Johnson if they weren't on stacked teams

[ClipperRevival]

Star players show you who they really are once you give them more responsibility. Pippen had his own team and his numbers remained similar to when MJ was on the team.

Blake Griffin showed us that he can take his game to a higher level if you give him more responsibility. That's the true sign of an elite player.

The hardest thing to do in basketball is to be "the man" and still produce every night. Not too many players can handle that burden. Some guys like Kevin Love can put up numbers but they are empty numbers. He gets his numbers at the expense of the team. The guy who can put up the numbers AND can help his team get better are the true superstars.

Harden proved this with Houston. Once the burden was placed on him, he showed that he can not only get his on offense but can make his teammates better.

[3ball]

MJ's 90's stats would've been better if he didn't have to play within an advanced, sophisticated offense like the triangle.

If he'd been able to employ a suboptimal style instead, that had zero chance of winning, but resulted in maximum isolations and shot attempts (ahem lebron 2015 Finals), then his stats would've been better.

But instead - in order to win, MJ needed to employ an optimal style that could fit within the triangle and actually WIN, which suppressed his stats.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The triangle didn't hold back Kobe either. I always say the cream rises to the top. Meaning if you are what you say you are, you will eventually do it on the court. Pip was a great all around player and his almost 2 seasons as "the man" proved who he was. Not a dominant offensive player but a great all around player.

Being a great scorer ie. averaging somewhere in the 25 range isn't something Pippen needed or was asked to do. If Phil were to say, "Hey Scottie, I'm gonna need you to carry the scoring load tonight." there's no way he ISN'T averaging those numbers.

His footwork, midrange, post game and overall fundamentals were too good. People don't understand the sacrifices he made for those Bulls teams.

It was either Wennington or Kerr that said Scottie could "do it by himself", but chose to work in the team frame.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ's 90's stats would've been better if he didn't have to play within an advanced, sophisticated offense like the triangle.

If he'd been able to employ a suboptimal style instead, that had zero chance of winning, but resulted in maximum isolations and shot attempts (ahem lebron 2015 Finals), then his stats would've been better.

But instead - in order to win, MJ needed to employ an optimal style that could fit within the triangle and actually WIN, which suppressed his stats.

And even then, MJ averaged 41.0 ppg in one finals series. Just insane. Not only dominate you with his scoring but still play within the team context.

[3ball]

Being a great scorer ie. averaging somewhere in the 25 range isn't something Pippen needed or was asked to do. If Phil were to say, "Hey Scottie, I'm gonna need you to carry the scoring load tonight." there's no way he ISN'T averaging those numbers.


what a joke - scottie had his own team and averaged 22 ppg.

that's his max - 22 ppg - this was proven when he was the #1 option in 1994...

it's not like they won the championship that year - they made the 2nd Round - so the Bulls NEEDED Scottie to be like MJ and score way more.. But he simply couldn't.

pippen was never a great scorer - everyone knows this - but keep trying to rewrite history.. you guys are ridiculous

[ClipperRevival]

Being a great scorer ie. averaging somewhere in the 25 range isn't something Pippen needed or was asked to do. If Phil were to say, "Hey Scottie, I'm gonna need you to carry the scoring load tonight." there's no way he ISN'T averaging those numbers.

His footwork, midrange, post game and overall fundamentals were too good. People don't understand the sacrifices he made for those Bulls teams.

It was either Wennington or Kerr that said Scottie could "do it by himself", but chose to work in the team frame.

Sorry. If MJ had never retired and Pip never had his own team to work with, your theory might hold some water. But he actually did for almost 2 years and in his prime. It is what it is. Accept it.

[Dragonyeuw]

His numbers barely changed between Jordan's era and Jordan's retirement. The triangle offense held him back.

Scottie didn't have the kind of iso game in the half-court that would have led to significant higher scoring, even if you replaced the triangle with a traditional half-court offense. Not only the iso skills, but the mentality to shoot at high volumes wasn't part of his makeup. Could he have scored a few more points, say 24-25? Perhaps, but likely at the expense of his defense and I doubt that was an option in his mind. The 94 season was a 7th year Pippen at age 28, at the absolute peak of his powers. If he had the ability to score more, that would have been thrown on him. Instead, BJ and Grant bumped up their scoring a few points, and Kukoc provided scoring spark off the bench. The strategy to replace MJ's scoring was a 'by committee' effort, not a 'Scottie is going to have to score 25+ for us to be successful' strategy.

[T_L_P]

Any non-role player on the Spurs:

Duncan
Manu
Parker
Kawhi

??

[ClipperRevival]

Scottie didn't have the kind of iso game in the half-court that would have led to significant higher scoring, even if you replaced the triangle with a traditional half-court offense. Not only the iso skills, but the mentality to shoot at high volumes wasn't part of his makeup. Could he have scored a few more points, say 24-25? Perhaps, but likely at the expense of his defense and I doubt that was an option in his mind. The 94 season was a 7th year Pippen at age 28, at the absolute peak of his powers. If he had the ability to score more, that would have been thrown on him. Instead, BJ and Grant bumped up their scoring a few points, and Kukoc provided scoring spark off the bench. The strategy to replace MJ's scoring was a 'by committee' effort, not a 'Scottie is going to have to score 25+ for us to be successful' strategy.

:applause:

[kennethgriffin]

if kobe never cared about pleasing team mates. he'd easly have a 33-33.5ppg career average


with around 5 seasons of 35+

[DonDadda59]

Rasheed Wallace.

Shaq if he cared about the game (and conditioning) as much as he cared about rapping.

You could probably rattle of a ton of bench players who fit the bill- Jamal Crawford being exhibit A.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

what a joke - scottie had his own team and averaged 22 ppg.

that's his max - 22 ppg - this was proven when he was the #1 option in 1994...

it's not like they won the championship that year - they made the 2nd Round - so the Bulls NEEDED Scottie to be like MJ and score way more.. But he simply couldn't.

pippen was never a great scorer - everyone knows this - but keep trying to rewrite history.. you guys are ridiculous

You're right, Pippen wasn't. The question is was he capable? And I say yeah, he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs

If he quit focusing in other areas where he provided immediate impact, there's no question guy could be a pretty damn good volume scorer. Look at those moves in the post. The transition game and finishing...

In 1994, Pippen was asked to play the same role he did previous years, except handle the ball more. That '94 Bulls squad were the epitome of team basketball.

[ClipperRevival]

if kobe never cared about pleasing team mates. he'd easly have a 33-33.5ppg career average


with around 5 seasons of 35+


He had an absolute green light from 2005 - 2007 and averaged 31.8.

MJ's career average as a Bull was 31.5.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sorry. If MJ had never retired and Pip never had his own team to work with, your theory might hold some water. But he actually did for almost 2 years and in his prime. It is what it is. Accept it.

He wasn't asked to score that way. Educate yourself.

[ClipperRevival]

You're right, Pippen wasn't. The question is was he capable? And I say yeah, he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs

If he quit focusing in other areas where he provided immediate impact, there's no question guy could be a pretty damn good volume scorer. Look at those moves in the post. The transition game and finishing...

In 1994, Pippen was asked to play the same role he did previous years, except handle the ball more. That '94 Bulls squad were the epitome of team basketball.

What are you arguing? That if Pip cared less about being an all around player he would average a few more points at maybe 25 ppg? We can give you that. What we are saying is that he simply lacked the iso game to carry a team offensively like a Kobe, MJ or Wade. And that is a fact.

[kennethgriffin]

He had an absolute green light from 2005 - 2007 and averaged 31.8.

MJ's career average as a Bull was 31.5.


wrong

he only took 20 shots per game in 2005

23 shots per game in 2007


had he taken his 2006 amount of 27 shots per game like he could have with "an absolute green light" then he averages 35ppg all 3 years



its about attempts. jordan and kobe have a 1.30 PPS. jordan averages 30 for his career due to averaging 4 more shots a game

its just about opportunities really





and over those 3 years he averaged 31.8ppg with 5.3 assists


i said "if he doesnt care about pleasing others... he turns those 5.3 assists into another 5 points per game

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What are you arguing? That if Pip cared less about being an all around player he would average a few more points at maybe 25 ppg? We can give you that. What we are saying is that he simply lacked the iso game to carry a team offensively like a Kobe, MJ or Wade. And that is a fact.

I never argued he could carry a team on offense, consistently, the way MJ, Kobe or Wade did. I simply said Pippen was CAPABLE of averaging those numbers if he wasn't playing the all-around game at an elite level.

I'm glad that you concede this now.

[ClipperRevival]

wrong

he only took 20 shots per game in 2005

23 shots per game in 2007


had he taken his 2006 amount of 27 shots per game like he could have with "an absolute green light" then he averages 35ppg all 3 years



its about attempts. jordan and kobe have a 1.30 PPS. jordan averages 30 for his career due to averaging 4 more shots a game

its just about opportunities really





and over those 3 years he averaged 31.8ppg with 5.3 assists


i said "if he doesnt care about pleasing others... he turns those 5.3 assists into another 5 points per game

That's a very hypothetical scenario. Getting the two seasons he led the league in scoring and saying he would average that his whole career. Most star players would average more if they forgot about the team and just went to get theirs like Kobe did in 2006 and 2007.

[RRR3]

Rasheed Wallace.

Shaq if he cared about the game (and conditioning) as much as he cared about rapping.

You could probably rattle of a ton of bench players who fit the bill- Jamal Crawford being exhibit A.
Don,

I'd like to know what numbers you think Rasheed puts up if he reached his full potential?

Also what do you think Shaq was capable of?


And Jamal Crawford?

[DonDadda59]

Don,

I'd like to know what numbers you think Rasheed puts up if he reached his full potential?

Honestly, that dude was ridiculously talented. He could do anything on a basketball court offensively (and was a beast on defense)- post up, mid range, could knock down the 3 proficiently and he had some nice athleticism to go along with that. Also a very high IQ player, if not always off the court. :lol

If he was a more selfish player, I think he could've put up somewhere in the neighborhood of 20/9/3 with all NBA caliber defense.

His defense is ridiculously underrated. The Pistons were a great defensive squad before him, 2nd to only the Spurs in '03-'04 but his addition turned them into an ATG defensive team. Even when he was broken down and way past it, his presence on the Knicks changed the whole defensive culture of the team and they were actually good for that one season.


Also what do you think Shaq was capable of?

His finals stats for his career until about age 32. Would've been tougher to do that in the 90s when the center position was stacked though. Just feels like as great as his career was, it could've been better had he actually given a shit about basketball more than he did his terrible rapping and Hollywood career.



And Jamal Crawford?

20/4/5 at his peak. With Iversonian efficiency. Think he did something similar on a terrible Knicks squad when he was a starter. He might be the best 1 on 1 player in the game.

[RRR3]

Honestly, that dude was ridiculously talented. He could do anything on a basketball court offensively (and was a beast on defense)- post up, mid range, could knock down the 3 proficiently and he had some nice athleticism to go along with that. Also a very high IQ player, if not always off the court. :lol

If he was a more selfish player, I think he could've put up somewhere in the neighborhood of 20/10/3 with all NBA caliber defense.

His defense is ridiculously underrated. The Pistons were a great defensive squad before him, 2nd to only the Spurs in '03-'04 but his addition turned them into an ATG defensive team. Even when he was broken down and way past it, his presence on the Knicks changed the whole defensive culture of the team and they were actually good for that one season.



His finals stats for his career until about age 32. Would've been tougher to do that in the 90s when the center position was stacked though. Just feels like as great as his career was, it could've been better had he actually given a shit about basketball more than he did his terrible rapping and Hollywood career.




20/4/5 at his peak. With Iversonian efficiency. Think he did something similar on a terrible Knicks squad when he was a starter. He might be the best 1 on 1 player in the game.
Nice, I always hear Rasheed talked about wistfully....seems he underachieved.
It's scary to think Shaq could have been better :eek:

Crawford has put up 20 PPG at least once and probably 5 assists. He is a shit rebounder though.

[Dragonyeuw]

Shaq's peak scoring should have been 3-4 points higher if he was even a 65-70% foul shooter. Can you imagine this guy in 2001 if hack a shaq wasn't a viable strategy? :biggums:

[rmt]

if kobe never cared about pleasing team mates. he'd easly have a 33-33.5ppg career average


with around 5 seasons of 35+

I guess he cares so much about pleasing his team mates that he takes the time to text/tweet, "Welcome to the Lakers! Glad to have you on board." Oops.

[DonDadda59]

Nice, I always hear Rasheed talked about wistfully....seems he underachieved.
It's scary to think Shaq could have been better :eek:

Crawford has put up 20 PPG at least once and probably 5 assists. He is a shit rebounder though.

Big time. Dude had much more talent than his numbers suggest. He was unstoppable in the post but always seemed to settle for jumpers. Didn't rebound as well as he could've consistently given his size, athleticism.


Shaq's peak scoring should have been 3-4 points higher if he was even a 65-70% foul shooter. Can you imagine this guy in 2001 if hack a shaq wasn't a viable strategy?

Yeah if Kobe's brain was transported into Shaq's body, you'd have the GOAT player. Shaq let himself go physically as the years passed. Compare his body and his fluidity from his Orlando days to his later LA tenure. He was fortunate that the center position was dead by then.

If he had spent as much time in the gym working on his free throws as he did working on Kazaam or his rap albums, he would've been literally unstoppable.

[Bankaii]

Dwight Howard. Dude is easily the best center in the game, he just doesn't get enough shots.
For reference, Miami Shaq averaged more FGA than peak Dwight. It's crazy how underutilized he is with the Rockets.

[Mass Debator]

I think of Kevin Durant...If he had 27 attempts like Kobe did in 06 or Jordan's 28 in 87, I can see 40ppg.

[KNOW1EDGE]

All 3 were Blazers at one point:

Scott Pippen
Rasheed Wallace
Andre Miller

[LoneyROY7]

Dwight Howard. Dude is easily the best center in the game, he just doesn't get enough shots.
For reference, Miami Shaq averaged more FGA than peak Dwight. It's crazy how underutilized he is with the Rockets.

Underutilized or unskilled?

[Dragonyeuw]

Dwight Howard. Dude is easily the best center in the game, he just doesn't get enough shots.
For reference, Miami Shaq averaged more FGA than peak Dwight. It's crazy how underutilized he is with the Rockets.

Meh, Dwight peaked in 2011 at around 23 a game as the featured player on the Magic. His offensive game never really evolved to compensate for any loss of athleticism post-back injury. Transport him to the 90's, and he's Mourning-level at best( I'd still take Alonzo).

[Mass Debator]

Dwight Howard. Dude is easily the best center in the game, he just doesn't get enough shots.
For reference, Miami Shaq averaged more FGA than peak Dwight. It's crazy how underutilized he is with the Rockets.
It's because Dwight sucks at isolations/posting up. James Harden has a 1.22 points per possession in transition and above a 1 on isos. He rightfully should get the bulk of the shots.

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/dwightplays.jpg

[rmt]

Every 2013-14 Spur averaged under 30 minutes for an entire season (even the 22 year old Leonard) and they had the best regular season record (62-20).

[kshutts1]

Honestly, I think Wilt is the only player ever where I can honestly say "he could not have realistically put up bigger numbers".

Everyone else? A case can very easily be made, and most often centers around playing time and role on their team.

[PP34Deuce]

I'm going to say...

Rasheed Wallace- Was on stacked Portland teams but had the talent to be a 25PPG 12 RPG player. In Detroit, he sacrificed stats for winning but could have had better stats.

[imnew09]

Dwight Howard. Dude is easily the best center in the game, he just doesn't get enough shots.
For reference, Miami Shaq averaged more FGA than peak Dwight. It's crazy how underutilized he is with the Rockets.

More like lack of post games.

Only time he finishes is when he's inside his girls

[fpliii]

Terrific thread. Context is everything with this kind of stuff, which is why I throw the box score completely out the window and don't consider it when evaluating/comparing players. So much is determined by opportunity and role, so for me personally it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare players on that basis. Give me the tape and impact data any day.

[ShawkFactory]

Manu is the first guy who comes to mind. I think he would have been a 23-24/7/6 guy in his prime if he was the lead dog.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt in the playoffs & Finals

[CakeorDeath]

Stockton could have scored a lot more than he did

[RRR3]

Just realized I wrote "him" instead of "up" :crazysam:
Anyone kno how to edit thread titles?

[Smoke117]

FAIL.

Pippen was "the man", in his prime and had his own team to put up the numbers in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95. He peaked at 22+ ppg.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The triangle offense is a slow down, execution over opportunity offense. What was Pippens greatest scoring attribute? His open floor play. He's a top 5 open court player ever...but the Bulls didn't play that way. Antoine Walker averaged 23.4ppg on 21.2 shots...is he a better scorer than Scottie? Pip shot 17.8 shots in 94...1.3 more than his career high at that point in his career of 16.5 with Jordan there. What made that Bulls 94 team is Pippens complete unselfish play. He could have come out launching 20+ shots and averaging 25 points, but he saw they weren't going to win that way after losing a 30ppg player. They had to rely on gritty defensive play.

You put Scottie on an up tempo team as the man 91-97 and he would have capable of scoring around 25ppg for a few years. Would he have shot enough? That's the question...and I don't know. The guy was unselfish to the core.

Another guy who could have put up bigger numbers than he did: Rasheed Wallace - His turn around in the post was a thing of beauty...fluid, graceful, and most importantly unguardable. He had a fantastic basketball body too...long and athletic. When a guy like Webber is peaking at 27pts (on 23 shots)...than I know that Sheed could have put those numbers up too and on much better efficiency because he was a much more skilled scorer in general. He was an incredibly unselfish player too, but I also don't think he liked being in the limelight and couldn't handle the pressure...which is too bad, because he had more skills as far as scoring goes than either Duncan, KG, or Webber.

[ClipperRevival]

You have no idea what you are talking about. The triangle offense is a slow down, execution over opportunity offense. What was Pippens greatest scoring attribute? His open floor play. He's a top 5 open court player ever...but the Bulls didn't play that way. Antoine Walker averaged 23.4ppg on 21.2 shots...is he a better scorer than Scottie? Pip shot 17.8 shots in 94...1.3 more than his career high at that point in his career of 16.5 with Jordan there. What made that Bulls 94 team is Pippens complete unselfish play. He could have come out launching 20+ shots and averaging 25 points, but he saw they weren't going to win that way after losing a 30ppg player. They had to rely on gritty defensive play.

You put Scottie on an up tempo team as the man 91-97 and he would have capable of scoring around 25ppg for a few years. Would he have shot enough? That's the question...and I don't know. The guy was unselfish to the core.

Another guy who could have put up bigger numbers than he did: Rasheed Wallace - His turn around in the post was a thing of beauty...fluid, graceful, and most importantly unguardable. He had a fantastic basketball body too...long and athletic. When a guy like Webber is peaking at 27pts (on 23 shots)...than I know that Sheed could have put those numbers up too and on much better efficiency because he was a much more skilled scorer in general. He was an incredibly unselfish player too, but I also don't think he liked being in the limelight and couldn't handle the pressure...which is too bad, because he had more skills as far as scoring goes than either Duncan, KG, or Webber.

Film don't lie. Pippen was "the man" in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95. He had an opportunity to showcase his scoring skills. Turns out, he never had MJ, Wade, Kobe, type iso, scoring skills but was more of a well rounded, all around player. Yes, he was great in transition but that's quite different from carrying an offense night after night. He peaked at 22ppg. The triangle didn't hold back MJ or Kobe. You can't hold back greatness.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Manu's probably the most obvious answer but there's been 5 pages and yet no mention of prime Andrew Toney...

You got dudes like Worthy, Ricky Pierce, peak McHale, Mike Coop, peak Clyde Frazier, Hornacek... For one reason or another...