2 alpha rings + 0 sidekick ring VS 1 alpha ring + 5 sidekick rings

[Kiddlovesnets]

It's Wilt vs Kareem. The former is only 2-4 in NBA finals, about as good as Lebron James, but he won both titles as the team's No.1 man. The latter has 6 rings in total, and a 6-4 record in NBA finals, but was only 1 alpha ring with the other five being Magic's sidekick. Whom do you think is the No.1 center in NBA history then? How much value will you place on sidekick rings?

[Myth]

Kareem only has 1 alpha ring? :biggums:

He has at least 2.

[Carbine]

He has 2 for sure.

Another one where he was at least the co best player.

[HurricaneKid]

In a season which he was the NBA MVP he went 33.4/13.6 with 4.6Bl on 55% FG. That is NOT a sidekick ring.

Nor is going for 26/9 on >60% FG in winning the FMVP.

Nor is leading the MILWAUKEE BUCKS to the title.

ISH keeps getting worse and worse.

[ClipperRevival]

KAJ has 2 FMVP and very easily could've been the FMVP in 1980, but Magic's legendary game 6 got him the nod.

And Wilt won the FMVP in 1972 but you can argue that West was their best player over the entire season.

[kennethgriffin]

kareem was the legit lead dog for 3 of his 6


magic owes him the 1980 fmvp

[fpliii]

kareem was the legit lead dog for 3 of his 6


magic owes him the 1980 fmvp
:applause:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909

No disrespect to Magic. He probably should have Worthy's FMVP.

[kennethgriffin]

wilts rings sucked



1967 Wilt Chamberlain = 17.7 finals PPG

his team mate Hal Greer = 26.0 finals PPG







1972 wilt won FMVP... but:

1st option Gail Goodrich = 25.6 finals PPG

2nd option Jerry West = 19.8 finals PPG

3rd option Wilt Chamberlain = 19.4 finals PPG

[You Cant Ban Me]

ALPHA RINGS :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Kareem has at least 2 alpha rings, not sure how anyone in their right mind could say he wasn't the best player on the '80 Lakers. Their next two titles are extremely close as well, although I'd prob give the nod to Magic

[superteamtheory]

For me,

when Kareem himself says Wilt was better than him... and this is just the impression he got playing an old Wilt as in he can't imagine what it would have been like to go up against this guy in his youth...

:confusedshrug:

[superteamtheory]

1972 wilt won FMVP... but:

1st option Gail Goodrich = 25.6 finals PPG

2nd option Jerry West = 19.8 finals PPG

3rd option Wilt Chamberlain = 19.4 finals PPG

hence the stupidity of measuring everything greatness related by scoring...

[kennethgriffin]

hence the stupidity of measuring everything greatness related by scoring...


well to be fair. thats all the box scores list

:lol

[TheBigVeto]

It's Wilt vs Kareem. The former is only 2-4 in NBA finals, about as good as Lebron James, but he won both titles as the team's No.1 man. The latter has 6 rings in total, and a 6-4 record in NBA finals, but was only 1 alpha ring with the other five being Magic's sidekick. Whom do you think is the No.1 center in NBA history then? How much value will you place on sidekick rings?

WTF.
Kareem has 6 alpha rings.
Magic was Robin and Kareem was Batman.

[MJistheGOAT]

LOL at Kareem having 1 alpha ring.

He has AT LEAST 2, I give him 3.

Wilt and Kareem are top 3 GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

It's Wilt vs Kareem. The former is only 2-4 in NBA finals, about as good as Lebron James, but he won both titles as the team's No.1 man. The latter has 6 rings in total, and a 6-4 record in NBA finals, but was only 1 alpha ring with the other five being Magic's sidekick. Whom do you think is the No.1 center in NBA history then? How much value will you place on sidekick rings?

Both Kareem and Wilt LOST rings due to multiple reasons, BUT much moreso Wilt. I always get a kick out of the "Wilt-bashers" making claims that he was "2/6", or "only" won two rings. Those comments are either taken out of context, or just plain pure idiocy.

For example, Chamberlain's TEAMS lost to the eventual champions, TEN times in his 14 seasons. And SEVEN of those came at the expense of the greatest dynasty in NBA history (and he either outplayed, or downright destroyed Russell in every one of them.) And the other three were to the '69-70 Knicks, a team that went 60-22, and boasted FOUR HOFers. Not only that, but Chamberlain was only four months removed from major knee surgery, and was nowhere near 100%. And you could make a strong case that Wilt was easily the best player in that Finals, as well, when he hung the only 20-20 .600+ Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) The fact that a one-legged Wilt could drag a 46-36 team to a game seven loss, against the same NY team that crushed KAJ's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1, was simply amazing.

Wilt's '70-71 48-34 Lakers lost to the 66-16 Bucks and a peak KAJ in the WCF's. BUT, his team didn't have BOTH West and Baylor. Furthermore, a 34 year old Chamberlain, only a year removed from major knee surgery, well past his prime, and in the worst season of his career, outplayed a peak Kareem by a 3-1-1 margin in that series (and statistically outplayed him, as well.)

And then Chamberlain's '72-73 60-22 Lakers lost to the 56-26 Knicks, and their SIX HOFers, 4-1, in the Finals. However, all four losses were decided in the last minute, and in a series in which Wilt's teammates were playing hurt.

In between, Wilt's '66-67 Sixers, who went 68-13, just slaughtered the eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, en route to a dominating world title. And then his '71-72 Lakers, who went 69-13, beat KAJ's 63-19 Bucks. who were universally acclaimed as the next great dynasty following their '71 title...in a series in which virtually everyone who witnessed it, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt outplayed a 25 year old Kareem in KAJ's greatest statistical season. And then Wilt dominated the Knicks, and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals, en route to a FMVP, and leading the Lakers to their first ever title in Los Angeles.

And going back to the Celtic Dynasty...Wilt's TEAMS were outgunned in terms of HOF talent, in EVERY H2H series with Russell's Celtics. And some were by staggering margins. For instance, his '64 Warriors, who "boasted" HOFers Nate Thurmond, a rookie, playing part-time, and out of position (and who would shoot .326 against Boston in the Finals); and Guy Rodgers, who was easily the most inefficient shooter of his era (and who would shoot .258 against Boston in that Finals)...lost to Russell's 59-21 Celtics, and their EIGHT HOFers (in a series in which Chamberlain crushed Russell across the board.)

The only times that Wilt had an equal supporting cast to Russell's, in their ten years in the league together, were in '67, and in which Chamberlain and his Sixers just annihilated Russell and his Celtics; in '68, BUT, in a series in which HALF of Wilt's key players, including Wilt himself, were either playing hurt, or missing the series altogether (HOFer Billy Cunningham was out with a broken wrist), and yet, they still only lost a game seven by four points. And in '69, Wilt was shackled by an incompetent coach, and had to watch helplessly while Baylor shot-jacked his team right down the drain, and in a series in which they lost a game seven by two points (and with Wilt watching the last five minutes from the bench.)

Most knowledgeable fans would claim that Russell had a HUGE margin in surrounding talent in their first six years in the league against each other. And even in the last four, it could be argued that only in '69, did Wilt have a better cast, albeit, not nearly as deep, and in which they were poorly coached. Even John Wooden was on record as claiming that, had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, that it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Think about that. WORST case scenario, Wilt would likely have won SIX rings under those circumstances, and possibly as many as TEN. And then with his '72 ring, he would have retired with between SEVEN to ELEVEN rings.

Now where would a Wilt with SEVEN rings, be ranked among the all-time greats?

Continued...

[fpliii]

LAZ - How many more good years do you feel Wilt had left? Could he have strung together a couple more years on the same level as 72, 73? I know he still stayed in terrific shape long after his career but I wonder how many superstar seasons he left on the table (Magic is another what-if type, since if we knew as much then as we do now, he would've played several more seasons after the diagnosis; I know the infection was his doing but I don't like the fact that his and Bird's longevities are grouped together, when Magic purely due to knowledge of the disease retired in 91 as an MVP candidate, while Bird was in shambles from the back, which seems like it would still be a huge issue even with today's medicine).

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

The "Wilt bashers" will claim that KAJ had a 6-2 margin in rings in their careers, but again, they ignore context.

Here was reality...

A prime Kareem, in his first ten years in the league, only went to TWO Finals, and only won ONE ring. In his eight other seasons...

His teams lost with HCA in '73, '74, and '77 (including a sweeping loss.) His teams lost in the first round twice (including a 4-2 series loss with a 60-22 team against a 47-35 Warrior team.) He played with two stacked rosters (with teammates Wilkes, Dantley, Nixon, and Hudson) that were routed by Sonics teams with one borderline HOF player. And twice his teams missed the playoffs altogether.

And for those that give KAJ an edge over Wilt based on "winning"...in their four seasons in the league together, Wilt held a 3-1 margin in Finals appearances, and in fact carried his teams much further against the teams that beat Kareem's in the post-season ('70 and '73.)

And using play in "must win" games in their careers, Wilt was FAR more "clutch." And for those that use KAJ's longevity as somewhat of an excuse in that department...a prime Wilt was STILL MUCH more dominant in "must win" games than a prime KAJ.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

LAZ - How many more good years do you feel Wilt had left? Could he have strung together a couple more years on the same level as 72, 73? I know he still stayed in terrific shape long after his career but I wonder how many superstar seasons he left on the table (Magic is another what-if type, since if we knew as much then as we do now, he would've played several more seasons after the diagnosis; I know the infection was his doing but I don't like the fact that his and Bird's longevities are grouped together, when Magic purely due to knowledge of the disease retired in 91 as an MVP candidate, while Bird was in shambles from the back, which seems like it would still be a huge issue even with today's medicine).

Well, as you know, in Wilt's last season, and at age 36 (nearly 37), he finished 4th in the MVP balloting; he carried his 60-22 team to the Finals (where they lost four games in the final minute); was voted first-team all-defense (and it could be argued that he was even better in '73 than his '72 season, when most would have given a DPOY had the award existed); led the league in rebounding (and then slaughtered his closest pursuer on the glass in their playoff H2H); and set a FG% mark that still stands today. Hell, in his 17 post-season games, he averaged 22.5 rpg (in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team), which is miles ahead of the next best mark since (Garnett's 18.3 years later.)

There were those, like Larry Brown, who witnessed a mid-40's Chamberlain dominating a summer league in the 80's that featured multiple NBA stars, including Magic Johnson. And Wilt even had legitimate offers at age 50 to come back.

Given the fact that Chamberlain went to FOUR Finals in his last FIVE seasons, and was carrying rosters to records of 69-13 and 60-22 in his last two seasons, I don't see any reason that, in the weaker NBA in the years after he "retired" that he couldn't have won a couple more rings (given the right supporting casts of course.)

[LAZERUSS]

Back to Kareem...

Again, a prime Kareem, in his first ten years in the league, only won one ring. However, he finished his career with SIX. What happened in his last 10 seasons? MAGIC happened (as well as Wilkes, Worthy, Nixon, Scott, and Cooper.)

How much impact did MAGIC have? In his very first season, Magic took an under-achieving team that had gone 47-35 the year before, and were blown out by a 50-32 Sonics team in the playoffs...to a 60-22 record, a blowout of those same Sonics, and a dominating world championship.

Now, there was no question that Kareem was "the man" in that first season. And he was having a staggering Finals thru game five, as well. But it was also interesting, that in the game he missed, his team, led by Magic's 42-15-7, romped to a win in the clinching game six (and on the road to boot.) In fact, it was LA's best game of the series (and for the record, all five of the other games were reasonably close.)

And Kareem was still considered the main cog in '81, as well. However, Magic missed nearly the entire last half of the season due to injury, and his play in the first round was very sub-par (albeit, he still put up a 17-14-7 series.) But, KAJ was every bit as as responsible for their shocking first round loss to the 40-42 Rockets. Moses just pounded Kareem in that series.

After that stunning loss, the Lakers essentially turned over the reigns to Magic. From that season on, Magic would outvote Kareem every year in the MVP balloting.

And in the very next season, Magic put up a near triple-double playoff run (and a near triple double Finals...16-11-8) en route to a second ring and FMVP. Interesting too, that McAdoo put up nearly identical numbers, but in considerably less minutes, than Kareem did.

In the '83 post-season Magic played well (18-9-13), but his play in the Finals was subpar. Still, Kareem was beaten to a pulp by Moses in the Finals, and the Lakers were swept.

Magic received the blame for his Lakes BLOWING the '84 Finals, but KAJ shared equally as well. Magic put up an 18-8-14 .560 series, while Kareem shot poorly in that Finals (.481.)

Kareem had a sensational Finals in '85, and deservedly won the FMVP, but Magic was still their playoff MVP (18-7-15 compared to KAJ's 22-8-4.)

And when Kareem was outplayed by Sampson in the '86 WCF's, Riley decided that Magic would need to become the focal point for scoring.

Magic just DOMINATED in the '87 Finals (arguably one of the greatest ever...a 26-8-13 .560 FG%, .960 FT% Finals in which he led his Lakers in nearly every statistical category.)

And '87 is the first "questionable" ring for KAJ. He was now a "third-wheel", and in fact, his two subs, Thompson and Green actually played better in tandem. An argument could be made that those Lakers were so much better than the rest of the league, that they likely would have won a ring without Kareem, and with Thompson and Green taking his minutes.

Kareem's '88 ring in an example of just how deceptive rings can be. He played poorly the entire post-season; was awful in the Finals (13-4 .414); and put up a horrific game seven (in 29 minutes, 4 points on 2-7 shooting, 3 rebounds, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs.) The reality was, the Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem's inept Finals. And while Worthy won the FMVP, Magic was clearly the best player in the Finals (21-6-13 .550 FG% to Worthy's 22-7-4 .492.)

In Kareem's last season, admittedly at age 42, he was basically worthless in the post-season, and particularly in the Finals. And when Magic went down in game two of the Finals (and with Scott missing the entire Finals)...Kareem couldn't pick up the slack, and LA was swept.

What is interesting, though, was that the Lakers went 57-25 in KAJ's last season. The very next season, they would go 63-19, which was their second best record in the Magic era. True, they were knocked out in the second round, but Magic played brilliantly...putting up a 30-6-12 .500 FG% series, which included back-to-back 43 point games in the last two games of that series.

Then, in Magic's last season, he carried a rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster to a 58-24 record, and then past the 63-19 Blazers, en route to losing to MJ's 61-21 Bulls in the Finals.

After Magic "retired" the Lakers immediately plummeted back to where he found them, with records of 43-39 and then 39-43.

So, for those that give KAJ's 6-2 margin of rings over Wilt a ton of weight...without MAGIC, Kareem likely would have retired with only one ring.
And he won four of his five rings with Magic as a side-kick, one of which was as a third wheel, and another in as dreadful a post-season as any "GOAT" has ever had.

[LAZERUSS]

Now, a prime-to-peak Kareem only won one ring.

Still, he was, by far, the best player on the floor in the '74 Finals. Aside from his game seven flop job, he dominated that series. And he had very little help from his teammates the entire series. His second best teammate, Bobby Dandridge, put up a 17-6 .423 FG% series. Swap rosters with Cowens, and there was no question that Kareem would have won a ring that year.

Same thing in '77. Kareem was somehow able to get his below average roster to a 53-29 record, but they were totally crushed by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's. Kareem has lost his starting PF to injuries that year, and LA didn't have a capable backup. Not only that, but his two starting guards were injured in the WCF's, and the backups struggled to even get the ball past half court. In game two of that series, Kareem just carpet-bombed Walton with a 40-17 .17-23 game, but he had zero help. In fact, there is footage on YouTube of that game, and when West opted to give Kareem a brief rest with an ten point lead...literally within seconds, the lead was cut to one. In that sequence, the Blazer guards still the ball in the back-court in three straight possessions. As it was Kareem hung a 30-16 .607 series on Walton. Again, swap rosters, and Kareem wins a ring that season.

And Kareem's supporting casts in his '75 and '76 seasons were just trash. Given that the 48-34 Warriors won a ring in '75, and an declining Celtic team won a ring in '76, and had KAJ had even decent rosters, he might have won rings in those years, as well.

[ShawkFactory]

Holy shit.

[Mr Feeny]

Holy shit.

He literally has no life.

[IllegalD]

Kareem aint really shit 'cause he needed Top 10/GOAT candidates to win ALL of his rings. (Big O for the first one, Magic for the last 5).