Charles Barkley on why Michael Jordan won

[97 bulls]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"

[ClipperRevival]

Since when did people take Barkley's opinions seriously? Half the shit he spews is BS. Plus, the guy was "the man" for his epic choke jobs in 1994 and 1995 against Houston. If he had won as "the man" he would think differently.

[97 bulls]

Since when did people take Barkley's opinions seriously? Half the shit he spews is BS. Plus, the guy was "the man" for his epic choke jobs in 1994 and 1995 against Houston. If he had won as "the man" he would think differently.
Jordan didn't disagree with it.

[kennethgriffin]

barkley and shaq both have kobe in their top 5 players all time




pick your poison

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan didn't disagree with it.

:facepalm Saw the video. It was like a 5 second reference and Barkley was joking after MJ said Barkley never won anything. Come on.

[superteamtheory]

He's even clearer in the "Sir Charles @ 50" doc..

It's the defence. Pippen's D could cage a star a la FMVPs Kawhi and Iggy... Barkley in 93 could have handled the mano es mano with Jordan (not other years but in 93 yeah) or just dealing with Pippen's D... but having two top defenders on him was a bit much..

On the other hand, if you don't give the Bulls that, they suddenly don't have the depth to compete with the Suns .. then MJ would be the one saying "well shit I gotta beat Barkley and KJ and all I have is Horace"... so I'm not sure what to make of 93 exactly other than to say I think the Bulls had a slight advantage if only because MJ > Barkley even if Barkley is at his very best..

93 over Barkley's Suns is actually one of the better years in terms of the Bulls earning it. So is 91 and 97. These three truly great years lead me to believe that in less ideal circumstances MJ still would have finished with at least 3 rings no matter what. (Possibly 4. I think the 5 & 6 is ring padding thanks to his franchise situation.) 3 rings coupled with stats would still give him a great argument for GOAT vs. his peers Magic (who with Kareem got 5), Bird (who got 3 with a fair/reasonable amount of help), Duncan (who got 5 over time with at least 4 other HOFamers) and Kobe (had Shaq for 3 of the 5).. Considering there are doubters of the Wilt, Russell (had 3 other HOFamers and strong rosters over the course of the run) and Kareem (had Oscar & Magic), even just 3 rings would give him the argument in general, as it would any best of generation player... and one of the best arguments is how much talent were you matched against vs. how much you had to throw back...

That's why the 3 wins achieved by Knicks in 92 and Pacers in 98 were nothing short of amazing and those teams should be given major props.. Pacers were also great vs. Heat in 2013.. Cavs were great vs. prime K.G. Celtics in 08.. Etc.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm Saw the video. It was like a 5 second reference and Barkley was joking after MJ said Barkley never won anything. Come on.
What are you talking about? You don't think he meant what he said?

[ClipperRevival]

He's even clearer in the "Sir Charles @ 50" doc..

It's the defence. Pippen's D could cage a star a la FMVPs Kawhi and Iggy... Barkley in 93 could have handled the mano es mano with Jordan (not other years but in 93 yeah) or just dealing with Pippen's D... but having two top defenders on him was a bit much..

On the other hand, if you don't give the Bulls that, they suddenly don't have the depth to compete with the Suns .. then MJ would be the one saying "well shit I gotta beat Barkley and KJ and all I have is Horace"... so I'm not sure what to make of 93 exactly other than to say I think the Bulls had a slight advantage if only because MJ > Barkley even if Barkley is at his very best..

93 over Barkley's Suns is actually one of the better years in terms of the Bulls earning it. So is 91 and 97. These three truly great years lead me to believe that in less ideal circumstances MJ still would have finished with at least 3 rings no matter what. (Possibly 4. I think the 5 & 6 is ring padding thanks to his franchise situation.) 3 rings coupled with stats would still give him a great argument for GOAT vs. his peers Magic (who with Kareem got 5), Bird (who got 3 with a fair/reasonable amount of help), Duncan (who got 5 over time with at least 4 other HOFamers) and Kobe (had Shaq for 3 of the 5).. Considering there are doubters of the Wilt, Russell (had 3 other HOFamers and strong rosters over the course of the run) and Kareem (had Oscar & Magic), even just 3 rings would give him the argument in general, as it would any best of generation player... and one of the best arguments is how much talent were you matched against vs. how much you had to throw back...

That's why the 3 wins achieved by Knicks in 92 and Pacers in 98 were nothing short of amazing and those teams should be given major props.. Pacers were also great vs. Heat in 2013.. Cavs were great vs. prime K.G. Celtics in 08.. Etc.

MJ really can't win in some fan's eyes. He goes 6/6, he faced bums. He loses a few, they say he was overrated. The fact is, MJ came, he saw and conquered the basketball world. Took on all comers and slayed them all once he figured out how to win..

Teams like the 1992-1994 Knicks could be looked upon as a historical team had they won a ring. That 1992 team took MJ's Bulls to 7 games. And that 1994 team lost in 7 games to the Rockets in the finals. That was a great team.

And also, the 1998 Pacers. The Bulls were an old team by then and the Pacers took them to 7 also.

Then there are all the teams we know about that he slayed in the finals. MJ faced a whose, who of teams led by all time greats. That Jazz team was great and without MJ's heroics in game 6 at Utah in 1998, guess where game 7 is played? Utah. But he imposed his will on the game and didn't let it get to that dire position.

[ClipperRevival]

This is why I never bought into the notion that a great player can't impact the outcome of games and if he never wins a ring, it wasn't his fault. I understand SOME players never had help but that's usually the exception.

Take Barkley for example. From 1993 to 1995, you can argue he had the best team in bball. His team was up 3-1 against the Rockets and couldn't close them out in games 5, 6 and 7 (5 and 7 at home). That's on your leader if you choke that badly.

Same with Robinson. Best team in bball in 1995. Meets 6th seed Rockets and gets destroyed by Hakeem in the wcf.

Same with Malone and Jazz. 1998, game 6, they are at home and up one point with possession with 30 seconds left. They score, they put the game away and force a game 7, which is in Utah. We know what happens. MJ imposes his will on both ends. Malone chokes by being careless when it mattered most.

There is such a thing as clutch ability. And the greats that choke when it mattered most shouldn't be given a free pass and just say, "teams win games." That's BS. Great players impose their will on the game. Ask MJ and Hakeem.

[guy]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"

You actually expect Jordan to throw Pippen under the bus by arguing that?

For you to take any of those opinions seriously is a joke. Malone and Clyde are two of the saltiest players ever. Malone literally chose Pippen over Jordan in his fantasy starting 5 and Clyde is a broken record of excuses (said the same thing about Magic too).

And Barkley? He's said numerous times that when they met in 93 he felt he had enough but just had to admit that Jordan was better then him. He also has played with Dr. J and Moses, KJ, Hakeem and Clyde (while Jordan was playing with Pippen and Rodman). Oh and by the way, there's probably no one that has belittled Pippen more publicly then Barkley.

Pippen was great, but the main difference between Jordan winning and those guys winning was not Pippen. It was the fact that Jordan was clearly better then those guys.

[superteamtheory]

MJ really can't win in some fan's eyes.

:banghead:

No, it's not that, he won in my eyes too, in everybody's, he's the one unless LBJ goes on some impossible late run and wins the next 4-5 years..

and I never said he played bums.. You're oversimplifying / common desperate tactic..

Y'all just want something else where he's given his own planet to live on and we can't even mention the other top 10s-20s without insulting him...

That's not respect, that's worship/****suck..

Even he doesn't do that. Sure he always makes clear he's #1 and could beat Bron etc. (less sure about Kobe but still confident of course why wouldn't he be) but he's also giving props to modern players all the time, even Mello he digs.. He doesn't act like these guys wouldn't have a shot against him, he knows they're great.. even if he's greater..

It can be both.. It can be that his Bulls team as a strong team gained momentum over all their competition but that he was still the greatest..

Can't win is LBJ's situation where a series statline of 38 8 8 1 and 1 on +.500% is a "choke" in the delusional eyes of the 3Balls of the world.. Can't win is when you are clearly the man in 2012 and all people want to talk about is your "stacked" team when he played at least 2 other teams that year just as stacked... Etc.

[ClipperRevival]

:banghead:

No, it's not that, he won in my eyes too, in everybody's, he's the one unless LBJ goes on some impossible late run and wins the next 4-5 years..

and I never said he played bums.. You're oversimplifying / common desperate tactic..

Y'all just want something else where he's given his own planet to live on and we can't even mention the other top 10s-20s without insulting him...

That's not respect, that's worship/****suck..

Even he doesn't do that. Sure he always makes clear he's #1 and could beat Bron etc. (less sure about Kobe but still confident of course why wouldn't he be) but he's also giving props to modern players all the time, even Mello he digs.. He doesn't act like these guys wouldn't have a shot against him, he knows they're great.. even if he's greater..

It can be both.. It can be that his Bulls team as a strong team gained momentum over all their competition but that he was still the greatest..

Can't win is LBJ's situation where a series statline of 38 8 8 1 and 1 on +.500% is a "choke" in the delusional eyes of the 3Balls of the world.. Can't win is when you are clearly the man in 2012 and all people want to talk about is your "stacked" team when he played at least 2 other teams that year just as stacked... Etc.

Lol. You misunderstood me. I was in agreement with your post and I was referring to the MJ haters. You were properly praising MJ, mentioning the 1992 Knicks and 1998 Pacers and I was piggybacking off of that.

[ClipperRevival]

What are you talking about? You don't think he meant what he said?

I don't take what Barkley has to say seriously. He talks out of his ass a lot.

[StephHamann]

Pippen's schlong was too much to handle

[DonDadda59]

Charles Barkley. Clyde Drexler. Karl Malone

What does Patrick Ewing have to say about this? :lol

What do all those names have in common? I'll give you one guess.

[97 bulls]

You actually expect Jordan to throw Pippen under the bus by arguing that?

Why does Jordan have ti throw Pippen under the bus??? Because it doesn't fall in line with your narrative? Come on.


For you to take any of those opinions seriously is a joke. Malone and Clyde are two of the saltiest players ever. Malone literally chose Pippen over Jordan in his fantasy starting 5 and Clyde is a broken record of excuses (said the same thing about Magic too).
Malone chose Oscar Robertson over Jordan. Not Pippen. He then recanted his statement.


And Barkley? He's said numerous times that when they met in 93 he felt he had enough but just had to admit that Jordan was better then him. He also has played with Dr. J and Moses, KJ, Hakeem and Clyde (while Jordan was playing with Pippen and Rodman). Oh and by the way, there's probably no one that has belittled Pippen more publicly then Barkley.
I don't see what your point is. Barkley felt he had enough then after losing obviously realised he didn't. People can change their minds you know. Hes also called Jordan the great ever. Is he talking out of his ass on that stance as well?


Pippen was great, but the main difference between Jordan winning and those guys winning was not Pippen. It was the fact that Jordan was clearly better then those guys.
Thats and the fact that he had a better team than they did. You gonna tell me the that the Suns without Barkley were better than the Bulls without Jordan?

[Wade's Rings]

I don't take what Barkley has to say seriously. He talks out of his ass a lot.

True and he contradicts himself a lot as well.

[DonDadda59]

Thats and the fact that he had a better team than they did. You gonna tell me the that the Suns without Barkley were better than the Bulls without Jordan?

The Suns won 53 games and had a second round berth the season before Chuck got there, virtually the same as the Bulls in their first year post Jordan.

The Suns were more talented than the Bulls in '93, which is why Jordan needed godly production to win an air tight 6 game series that could've easily gone to 7 in Phoenix's favor.

And why has there been no mention of Pippen joining Barkley and Hakeem the season after he missed half the year with a bad back and the Bulls still won the championship... while the Rockets got bounced in the first round and the team imploded? :biggums:

[97 bulls]

It never ceases to amaze me as to how bullheaded some of you guys are. I remember when we used to discuss who was better between the two three-peat Jordan's and I said that at worst The second three-peat Jordan was slightly less athletic but more cerebral and had a better jumper. Then a poster posted an interview of Jordan in 96 in which he said he was about "97%" of what he was athletically when compared to where he was in 91-93. But because it didn't fit your narrative, you guys (Guy was one of the ring leaders) just refused to accept it.

[warriorfan]

Charles Barkley isn't an expert on winning Championships

[guy]

Why does Jordan have ti throw Pippen under the bus??? Because it doesn't fall in line with your narrative? Come on.


Malone chose Oscar Robertson over Jordan. Not Pippen. He then recanted his statement.


I don't see what your point is. Barkley felt he had enough then after losing obviously realised he didn't. People can change their minds you know. Hes also called Jordan the great ever. Is he talking out of his ass on that stance as well?


Thats and the fact that he had a better team than they did. You gonna tell me the that the Suns without Barkley were better than the Bulls without Jordan?

If Jordan disagreed with Barkley that he would've beaten him regardless of Pippen, he would never argue it publicly. So my point is the fact that he didn't argue it there is irrelevant.

Whatever the case, for him not to pick Jordan clearly shows how salty he is.

Barkley has been saying that type of stuff TO THIS DAY.

Talent wise as they were in 93? Maybe. Obviously the Bulls have an edge when it comes to experience. Either way they were about on the same level. The difference between Jordan and Barkley was bigger then the difference in their supporting casts. Switch Jordan and Barkley and let's say since their about on the same level switch Grant and Majerle to account for positional differences. Suns win.

[tpols]

The Suns won 53 games and had a second round berth the season before Chuck got there, virtually the same as the Bulls in their first year post Jordan.

The Suns were more talented than the Bulls in '93, which is why Jordan needed godly production to win an air tight 6 game series that could've easily gone to 7 in Phoenix's favor.

And why has there been no mention of Pippen joining Barkley and Hakeem the season after he missed half the year with a bad back and the Bulls still won the championship... while the Rockets got bounced in the first round and the team imploded? :biggums:

The Bulls won 55 without MJ and barring injury would've went 60+...

So that's definite proof that Bulls w/o MJ > Suns w/o Barkley unless your on some 3ball "MJ won them those games he didn't play in with his superior execution, and cutting edge strategy" bullsh!t

[Asukal]

According to OP, Pippen=0 FMVP but he is the sole reason Jordan won. :rolleyes:

[DonDadda59]

It never ceases to amaze me as to how bullheaded some of you guys are. I remember when we used to discuss who was better between the two three-peat Jordan's and I said that at worst The second three-peat Jordan was slightly less athletic but more cerebral and had a better jumper. Then a poster posted an interview of Jordan in 96 in which he said he was about "97%" of what he was athletically when compared to where he was in 91-93. But because it didn't fit your narrative, you guys (Guy was one of the ring leaders) just refused to accept it.

That's all well and good but did Scottie Pippen not play with Charles Barkley (and Hakeem Olajuwon) the season after he missed half the year after back surgery when the Bulls won their 6th championship, Jordan his 6th finals MVP (to go along with his 5th season MVP and 10th scoring title that season)... only for the Rockets to lose in the first round? :confusedshrug:

I mean, the reason Jordan won joins Charles Bark and the Dream... but that team couldn't get out of the first round?

Strange.


The Bulls won 55 without MJ and barring injury would've went 60+...

That's definite proof that Bulls w/o MJ > Suns w/o Barkley unless your on some 3ball "MJ won them those games he didn't play in with his superior execution, and cutting edge strategy" bullsh!t

LOL.

The Bulls won 72 games when Jordan came back for his first full season.

Then when Pippen was out for half the season with a bad back, they won 62 games while Jordan collected the season MVP, scoring title, Finals MVP, and even an ASG MVP just to say 'f*ck you' one last time at 35 years old. :lol

[97 bulls]

According to OP, Pippen=0 FMVP but he is the sole reason Jordan won. :rolleyes:
No. Reread my post.

[97 bulls]

That's all well and good but did Scottie Pippen not play with Charles Barkley (and Hakeem Olajuwon) the season after he missed half the year after back surgery when the Bulls won their 6th championship, Jordan his 6th finals MVP (to go along with his 5th season MVP and 10th scoring title that season)... only for the Rockets to lose in the first round? :confusedshrug:

I mean, the reason Jordan won joins Charles Bark and the Dream... but that team couldn't get out of the first round?

Strange.
Come on bro. Pippen was a shell by the time he joined Barkley and Olajuwan.

[andgar923]

I remember MJ stating that Chuck doesn't make his teammates better.

MJ made Pip into a HOFer, Chuck didn't make any players great. He's been criticized for not working out, being outta shape, not being a great leader would rather be goofy and happy go lucky than winning.

Don't be made MJ made his teammates better.

[97 bulls]

LOL.

The Bulls won 72 games when Jordan came back for his first full season.

Then when Pippen was out for half the season with a bad back, they won 62 games while Jordan collected the season MVP, scoring title, Finals MVP, and even an ASG MVP just to say 'f*ck you' one last time at 35 years old.*
Why are you diverting? You said or implied that the Suns without Barkely were just as good as the Bulls without Jordan. When as has been proven thats not true becausd the Bulls won more games, even though they had more injuries, the player Barkley replaced (Jeff Hornacek) was much better than Pete Myers (Jordan's replacement).

[DonDadda59]

Come on bro. Pippen was a shell by the time he joined Barkley and Olajuwan.

:roll:

So when this happened in '98 w/ Jordan at age 35 (after Pippen missed half the season following back surgery0:

http://www.nbaarena.com/img/haberler/michael-jordan-finals-mvp.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/michael_jordan_1998_04_26.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/this.day.sports.history.feb8/images/michael-jordan.jpg

And immediately the next season, Pippen at age 32 plays all 50 games:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4jk6llZ3y1qc8vtf.jpg

He was a shell.

How convenient. :rolleyes:

[DonDadda59]

I remember MJ stating that Chuck doesn't make his teammates better.

MJ made Pip into a HOFer, Chuck didn't make any players great. He's been criticized for not working out, being outta shape, not being a great leader would rather be goofy and happy go lucky than winning.

Don't be made MJ made his teammates better.

Straight from the Horse's mouth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA) :oldlol:

So maybe that's the real reason Chuck never won? :confusedshrug:

[Blue&Orange]

Jordan didn't disagree with it.
off course not, he just called Barkley a loser a minute before. But who cares? Let's continue with the idiotic agenda thread.

[ClipperRevival]

:roll:

So when this happened in '98 w/ Jordan at age 35 (after Pippen missed half the season following back surgery0:

http://www.nbaarena.com/img/haberler/michael-jordan-finals-mvp.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/michael_jordan_1998_04_26.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/this.day.sports.history.feb8/images/michael-jordan.jpg

And immediately the next season, Pippen at age 32 plays all 50 games:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4jk6llZ3y1qc8vtf.jpg

He was a shell.

How convenient. :rolleyes:

And he played 82 games with the Blazers the very next season.

[DonDadda59]

And he played 82 games with the Blazers the very next season.

And he showed how much of a winner he was compared to Mr. 1-9 Jordan by taking a stacked WCF runner up... to another WCF runner up bid.

Not bad for a shell of a man. :applause:

[Asukal]

:roll:

So when this happened in '98 w/ Jordan at age 35 (after Pippen missed half the season following back surgery0:

http://www.nbaarena.com/img/haberler/michael-jordan-finals-mvp.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/michael_jordan_1998_04_26.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/this.day.sports.history.feb8/images/michael-jordan.jpg

And immediately the next season, Pippen at age 32 plays all 50 games:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4jk6llZ3y1qc8vtf.jpg

He was a shell.

How convenient. :rolleyes:

Shhhh.... pippen gave those rings to jordan. All jordan and their other team mates did was sit back and relax coz pippen got this. :applause:

[Dro]

The Bulls minus MJ are not more talented than the Suns. No way, lol. The Bulls have Pippen, the Suns have Kevin Johnson. They got Majerle and Danny Ainge, they're definitely better than BJ Armstrong or John Paxson. The Bulls had Trent Tucker coming off the bench. Now I realize Tucker got hot in game 6 of the '93 Finals, but come on.

Pippen would be the best player on the court, followed closely by KJ. KJ averaged around 23ppg in that series if I remember.

Then you have Richard Dumas, Tom Chambers, Chambers coming off the bench behind Barkley.

The centers were equally average, Oliver Miller and Mark West, and Cartwright, Stacey King, Will Perdue.

The Bulls have Grant but I think the Phoenix is deeper and more talented.

It was pretty much the same formula that many teams try now but it fails, a full group of good players, maybe a great one in Phoenix's case vs. 2 great players and a bunch of role players. They stars/superstars usually win.

GS this year had 2 great players, the Cavs had one, who knows what Irving would have done...

[ClipperRevival]

And he showed how much of a winner he was compared to Mr. 1-9 Jordan by taking a stacked WCF runner up... to another WCF runner up bid.

Not bad for a shell of a man. :applause:

Pip had a golden opportunity to somewhat get out of MJ's shadows in 2000. Stacked Blazers team and his team choked away game 7. That Blazers team would've no doubt beaten Indiana. But he failed.

[guy]

It never ceases to amaze me as to how bullheaded some of you guys are. I remember when we used to discuss who was better between the two three-peat Jordan's and I said that at worst The second three-peat Jordan was slightly less athletic but more cerebral and had a better jumper. Then a poster posted an interview of Jordan in 96 in which he said he was about "97%" of what he was athletically when compared to where he was in 91-93. But because it didn't fit your narrative, you guys (Guy was one of the ring leaders) just refused to accept it.

I don't even remember this conversation.

But anyway, so you think Jordan when he's trying to prove he's still the best player in the world is going to admit/believe that he's fallen off a lot athletically?How many people easily admit that they have fallen off from their craft as they have gotten older? Kobe Bryant would probably tell you that's he's still a top 10 player today. You're gullible as **** :oldlol: By the way, how does what he said in 96 speak for the whole 2nd three peat? This has nothing to do with narrative. Anyone that saw both versions could clearly see an athletic decline.

[LAL]

So MJ had help? Say wuuut

[97 bulls]

The Bulls minus MJ are not more talented than the Suns. No way, lol. The Bulls have Pippen, the Suns have Kevin Johnson. They got Majerle and Danny Ainge, they're definitely better than BJ Armstrong or John Paxson. The Bulls had Trent Tucker coming off the bench. Now I realize Tucker got hot in game 6 of the '93 Finals, but come on.

Pippen would be the best player on the court, followed closely by KJ. KJ averaged around 23ppg in that series if I remember.

Then you have Richard Dumas, Tom Chambers, Chambers coming off the bench behind Barkley.

The centers were equally average, Oliver Miller and Mark West, and Cartwright, Stacey King, Will Perdue.

The Bulls have Grant but I think the Phoenix is deeper and more talented.

It was pretty much the same formula that many teams try now but it fails, a full group of good players, maybe a great one in Phoenix's case vs. 2 great players and a bunch of role players. They stars/superstars usually win.

GS this year had 2 great players, the Cavs had one, who knows what Irving would have done...
Talent vs being a better team. Tremendous difference

[97 bulls]

I don't even remember this conversation.

But anyway, so you think Jordan when he's trying to prove he's still the best player in the world is going to admit/believe that he's fallen off a lot athletically?How many people easily admit that they have fallen off from their craft as they have gotten older? Kobe Bryant would probably tell you that's he's still a top 10 player today. You're gullible as **** :oldlol: By the way, how does what he said in 96 speak for the whole 2nd three peat? This has nothing to do with narrative. Anyone that saw both versions could clearly see an athletic decline.
Decline yes. But to the point where it was a difference maker? Or made one better than the other? No. Either way the point is that you guys feel you know more than the person himself when discussing said person.

[97 bulls]

off course not, he just called Barkley a loser a minute before. But who cares? Let's continue with the idiotic agenda thread.
Lol what agenda? Thats Jordan actually had great talent around him and the league knew it? Guilty as charged.

[guy]

Decline yes. But to the point where it was a difference maker? Or made one better than the other? No. Either way the point is that you guys feel you know more than the person himself when discussing said person.

Well Jordan was clearly still very athletic and the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a notable athletic decline i.e. he wasn't just 97%.

No it doesn't. I just understand that people have egos so I'm not gullible enough to take what they say publicly as gospel knowing that they will cater to their ego. Not everyone is as simple minded as you. Oh and by the way, I also have eyes and there's a ton of tape displaying Jordan's athletcism. I don't NEED to actually BE Jordan to have an informed opinion about that.

[97 bulls]

Well Jordan was clearly still very athletic and the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a notable athletic decline i.e. he wasn't just 97%.
Right. And like every other situation, you know better than what actually happened.


No it doesn't. I just understand that people have egos so I'm not gullible enough to take what they say publicly as gospel knowing that they will cater to their ego. Not everyone is as simple minded as you. Oh and by the way, I also have eyes and there's a ton of tape displaying Jordan's athletcism. I don't NEED to actually BE Jordan to have an informed opinion about that.
Again. Because it goes against your opinion. I didn't see that much of a difference and.he obviously didn't feel that much different. I'll take the man at his word.

I find it funny that your type always think you know more than what actually happened or what a man says as to how he feels about a situation. Barkley felt Jordan had a better team than him. The facts show that he did. Jordan didnt disagree with him. Take the L and move on. Jordan could've said that he had a great team around him as well.

I posted this to show that Jordan had great players around him. Why argue against it?

[guy]

Right. And like every other situation, you know better than what actually happened.


Again. Because it goes against your opinion. I didn't see that much of a difference and.he obviously didn't feel that much different. I'll take the man at his word.

I find it funny that your type always think you know more than what actually happened or what a man says as to how he feels about a situation. Barkley felt Jordan had a better team than him. The facts show that he did. Jordan didnt disagree with him. Take the L and move on. Jordan could've said that he had a great team around him as well.

I posted this to show that Jordan had great players around him. Why argue against it?

What facts? And what do they show?

Barkley has also said stuff like Pippen was nothing without Jordan. Doesn't that pretty much contradict what he's saying here? Maybe Jordan realized he's on Oprah and not at a bar with his friends so he didn't want to create a controversy. You really think if they had that same exchange in private that someone as super-competitive and sensitive as Jordan is just letting it end right there?

You're clearly gullible and simple minded and/or you just don't comprehend. No point of going around in circles with you.

[97 bulls]

What facts? And what do they show?

Barkley has also said stuff like Pippen was nothing without Jordan. Doesn't that pretty much contradict what he's saying here? Maybe Jordan realized he's on Oprah and not at a bar with his friends so he didn't want to create a controversy. You really think if they had that same exchange in private that someone as super-competitive and sensitive as Jordan is just letting it end right there?

You're clearly gullible and simple minded and/or you just don't comprehend. No point of going around in circles with you.
He called Barkley a loser at least twice. That is or was his best friend. I doubt hed pull any punches where Pippen is comcerned. Do you remember Jordans hall of fame speech? Did you ever think that Jordan didn't feel the need to diminish Pippen because he knows Pip did help him? And Pippen was a great player? And lets not forget Barkely also acknowledged Rodman as well.

[guy]

He called Barkley a loser at least twice. That is or was his best friend. I doubt hed pull any punches where Pippen is comcerned. Do you remember Jordans hall of fame speech? Did you ever think that Jordan didn't feel the need to diminish Pippen because he knows Pip did help him? And Pippen was a great player? And lets not forget Barkely also acknowledged Rodman as well.

Jordan and Barkley are clearly friends here and trading jabs jokingly. Again all of this is in public. Jordan was always PC with the public. He wouldn't try to stir up a controversy by responding to that comment and doing what most of the public would view as belittling his teammates whether he believed it or not. He's not like Shaq or Barkley in that regard.

Again, if you're this dense, let's not go in circles.

[97 bulls]

Are you an idiot??? Jordan and Barkley are clearly friends here and trading jabs jokingly. Again all of this is in public. Jordan was always PC with the public. He wouldn't try to stir up a controversy by responding to that comment and doing what most of the public would view as belittling his teammates whether he believed it or not. He's not like Shaq or Barkley in that regard.

Again, if you're this dense, let's not go in circles.
And again. Why would he even need to say something against Pippen? Maybe he knows that he had a great team around him. Barkley didn't say Jordan won because Pippen and Rodman were better than him. He said they won because Jordan had two great players with him.

Even more go back and read his retirement speech. That was hardly PC.

[scandisk_]

Pip tried to poke MJ with the bran conversation and it backfired bigtime. If MJ was such an asshole he could've fired back at will (see shaq). MJ rarely threw Pip under the bus publicly. Better teammate indeed :bowdown:

[guy]

And again. Why would he even need to say something against Pippen? Maybe he knows that he had a great team around him. Barkley didn't say Jordan won because Pippen and Rodman were better than him. He said they won because Jordan had two great players with him.

Even more go back and read his retirement speech. That was hardly PC.

He might not need to say anything against him. But he wouldn't say anything against Pippen REGARDLESS if he felt one way or the other. Which is why you can't take his unresponsiveness as meaning anything. Is it really that hard to understand?

IMO I highly doubt Jordan believes the only difference between the success of Jordan and Barkley is Pippen and that Barkley didn't get just as fair of a chance to win just as much as Jordan did but he just wasn't as good. Not someone that competitive and sensitive.

His retirement speech is one of the most overblown and over dissected things ever. He didn't really say anything that controversial that people hadn't heard about it before.

[LAZERUSS]

Remove every team's best player in the decade of the 90's, excluding the '94 Bulls who went 55-27 without their's, and the Bulls likely would have won six rings, and maybe more. For sure they would have won from '94 thru '98.

That's why it just amazes me how the Jordanites (not all of them of course, just the idiotic ones) claim that he was carrying trash to six rings.

The reality was, his teammates were good enough in '94 to win 55 games (and with Pippen and Grant missing 22 of them) and nearly knocked off the 56-26 Knicks in seven games (and had they had HCA they likely would have won.) The same NY team that lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points in the Finals.

And as talented as that '94 team was, without MJ, they were considerably more talented from '96 on. They had Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, and a capable 20 ppg scorer in Harper, as well as deep rosters.

No rational fan here would argue Jordan's greatness. But he was winning six rings with the best supporting casts in the decade of the 90's.

[Akrazotile]

Scottie and Michael used to compete on everything. Jordan used always claim his hands were bigger, but they weren’t. Scottie was very blessed down below. And that killed Michael. Johnny said, “you should have seen the girls pippen had waiting for him everywhere we went. Madonna used to pick him up in a limo with a hot tub every time we went to L.A.Michael used to tell Madonna he could satisfy her better, to which Madonna would tell him “not a chance"

Scottie was clearly MJ's motivation to win. It's the reason he went from 1-9 to a 6/6 GOAT candidate.

[scandisk_]

Wiltzeruss in the haws bitches!

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[97 bulls]

He might not need to say anything against him. But he wouldn't say anything against Pippen REGARDLESS if he felt one way or the other. Which is why you can't take his unresponsiveness as meaning anything. Is it really that hard to understand?

IMO I highly doubt Jordan believes the only difference between the success of Jordan and Barkley is Pippen and that Barkley didn't get just as fair of a chance to win just as much as Jordan did but he just wasn't as good. Not someone that competitive and sensitive.

His retirement speech is one of the most overblown and over dissected things ever. He didn't really say anything that controversial that people hadn't heard about it before.
Lol. YOU are the one arguing as to how Jordan felt. You're right we don't know. So why even assume? What we do know is what Barkley actually said. But once again you want to assume what hes saying isnt really what hes saying.

And again. Barkley didnt just mentione Pippen. He also named Rodman.

[guy]

Remove every team's best player in the decade of the 90's, excluding the '94 Bulls who went 55-27 without their's, and the Bulls likely would have won six rings, and maybe more. For sure they would have won from '94 thru '98.

That's why it just amazes me how the Jordanites (not all of them of course, just the idiotic ones) claim that he was carrying trash to six rings.

The reality was, his teammates were good enough in '94 to win 55 games (and with Pippen and Grant missing 22 of them) and nearly knocked off the 56-26 Knicks in seven games (and had they had HCA they likely would have won.) The same NY team that lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points in the Finals.

And as talented as that '94 team was, without MJ, they were considerably more talented from '96 on. They had Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, and a capable 20 ppg scorer in Harper, as well as deep rosters.

No rational fan here would argue Jordan's greatness. But he was winning six rings with the best supporting casts in the decade of the 90's.

20 ppg Ron Harper :oldlol:

Put wilt in a 30 team league and he wins 0 titles.

[97 bulls]

Remove every team's best player in the decade of the 90's, excluding the '94 Bulls who went 55-27 without their's, and the Bulls likely would have won six rings, and maybe more. For sure they would have won from '94 thru '98.

That's why it just amazes me how the Jordanites (not all of them of course, just the idiotic ones) claim that he was carrying trash to six rings.

The reality was, his teammates were good enough in '94 to win 55 games (and with Pippen and Grant missing 22 of them) and nearly knocked off the 56-26 Knicks in seven games (and had they had HCA they likely would have won.) The same NY team that lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points in the Finals.

And as talented as that '94 team was, without MJ, they were considerably more talented from '96 on. They had Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, and a capable 20 ppg scorer in Harper, as well as deep rosters.

No rational fan here would argue Jordan's greatness. But he was winning six rings with the best supporting casts in the decade of the 90's.
Exactly. I just cant fathom why Jordan fans get so defensive when someone other than Jordan gets credit.

[LAZERUSS]

20 ppg Ron Harper :oldlol:

Put wilt in a 30 team league and he wins 0 titles.

Replace Jordan with him on the Bulls, who were able to win six rings with pure crap at center, and he would have probably won a ring every year in the 90's.

Hell, the '94 Bulls won 55 games with no MJ, and nothing at center. Put a prime Wilt on that team, and they might not have lost a game.

[guy]

Lol. YOU are the one arguing as to how Jordan felt. You're right we don't know. So why even assume? What we do know is what Barkley actually said. But once again you want to assume what hes saying isnt really what hes saying.

And again. Barkley didnt just mentione Pippen. He also named Rodman.

Well bringing up Rodman means nothing since Jordan won half without him.

Did I not say IMO? I'm not assuming anything. I'm speculating, hence the "IMO". My main contention with this whole topic is you can't use what these players say or do not say in public as gospel that ends every argument since THEY ARE IN PUBLIC and probably don't speak as freely about what's on their mind and/or have other agendas. Yet people like you do it all the time. It's not really strong evidence of anything. Hulk Hogan hung out with a lot of black people publicly for many years. Well now that we know what he thinks privately, do we really think what he did in public means as much?

How is this that hard to understand? It shouldn't take this long to explain that most people don't speak as freely in public. If you still can't understand, don't respond. Let's not go in circles.

[warriorfan]

Hell, the '94 Bulls won 55 games with no MJ, and nothing at center. Put a prime Wilt on that team, and they might not have lost a game.


:milton

[guy]

Replace Jordan with him on the Bulls, who were able to win six rings with pure crap at center, and he would have probably won a ring every year in the 90's.

Hell, the '94 Bulls won 55 games with no MJ, and nothing at center. Put a prime Wilt on that team, and they might not have lost a game.

Ron Harper > Jerry West.

[LAZERUSS]

Ron Harper > Jerry West.

What's your point?

West played brilliantly in ONE post-season with Chamberlain, and one very good post-season in another (but was torched by Frazier in a game seven.) In the three other post-seasons, he played poorly in one, horrifically in another, and missed the last one entirely.

And please don't compare Jordan's competition with the likes of the '70 and '73 Knicks, and the '71 and '72 Bucks. Even the '69 Celtics fielded five HOFers, and roster that could go ten deep.

[scandisk_]

:milton

With The Logo and EB. He still have the guts to utter such a thing.

[LAZERUSS]

With The Logo and EB. He still have the guts to utter such a thing.

How many FULL seasons did Wilt play with Baylor? And then, in that one post-season, please give us all here Baylor's numbers.

And West only played well in two post-seasons with Wilt, and again, only one of them was in a full season with each other.

Furthermore, just how much talent did Hakeem and Ewing have on their rosters in the '94 Finals? Do you honestly believe that a prime Chamberlain, playing alongside a 55 win team, wouldn't have destroyed those two teams?

[scandisk_]

How many FULL seasons did Wilt play with Baylor. And then, in that one post-season, pleas give us all here Baylor's numbers.

And West only played well in two post-seasons with Wilt, and again, only one of them was in a full season with each other.

But with Harp+Pip and the rest of the BULLS squad they don't lose ayt?

:rockon:

keep em coming Laz

[sportjames23]

You actually expect Jordan to throw Pippen under the bus by arguing that?

For you to take any of those opinions seriously is a joke. Malone and Clyde are two of the saltiest players ever. Malone literally chose Pippen over Jordan in his fantasy starting 5 and Clyde is a broken record of excuses (said the same thing about Magic too).

And Barkley? He's said numerous times that when they met in 93 he felt he had enough but just had to admit that Jordan was better then him. He also has played with Dr. J and Moses, KJ, Hakeem and Clyde (while Jordan was playing with Pippen and Rodman). Oh and by the way, there's probably no one that has belittled Pippen more publicly then Barkley.

Pippen was great, but the main difference between Jordan winning and those guys winning was not Pippen. It was the fact that Jordan was clearly better then those guys.


Shaq's been ripping on Pip lately. More harsh than Barkley ever did.

[sportjames23]

:roll:

So when this happened in '98 w/ Jordan at age 35 (after Pippen missed half the season following back surgery0:

http://www.nbaarena.com/img/haberler/michael-jordan-finals-mvp.jpg

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/michael_jordan_1998_04_26.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/this.day.sports.history.feb8/images/michael-jordan.jpg

And immediately the next season, Pippen at age 32 plays all 50 games:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4jk6llZ3y1qc8vtf.jpg

He was a shell.

How convenient. :rolleyes:


Don't do 'im like that, breh. :cheers:

Of course, I love me some Pippen, and yes, the Bulls wouldn't have won as much without him, but certain Pippen fans fall for the MJ haters crap when they prop Scottie up to take shots at MJ.

Fact is, without MJ, Pip wouldn't have become a HOFer (he straight up said MJ is the reason he became the player he did) and the Bulls wouldn't have even come close to winning any titles.

[DonDadda59]

20 ppg Ron Harper :oldlol:

Put wilt in a 30 team league and he wins 0 titles.

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:

[sportjames23]

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:


http://images.rapgenius.com/dz9y0cr73xyvzi77jw0u0cw5m.1000x650x1.jpg

[97 bulls]

Well bringing up Rodman means nothing since Jordan won half without him.

Did I not say IMO? I'm not assuming anything. I'm speculating, hence the "IMO". My main contention with this whole topic is you can't use what these players say or do not say in public as gospel that ends every argument since THEY ARE IN PUBLIC and probably don't speak as freely about what's on their mind and/or have other agendas. Yet people like you do it all the time. It's not really strong evidence of anything. Hulk Hogan hung out with a lot of black people publicly for many years. Well now that we know what he thinks privately, do we really think what he did in public means as much?

How is this that hard to understand? It shouldn't take this long to explain that most people don't speak as freely in public. If you still can't understand, don't respond. Let's not go in circles.
Whatever you did. You have no proof. So why even "speculate". Here's your problem. We KNOW what Barkley said. You're "speculating" what Jordan would've said under a different scenario. And you're speculating on Barkleys intentions. Why? I have no clue. Other than it doesn't fall in line with your narrative.

Yoi don't know what Jordan has said behind closed doors. So don't even.bring that into the equation. By all accounts, Jordan knew he.couldn't win without Pippen. And show appreciation for his contributions. That's all we have to go on. Leave.it at that. If it comes out that Jordan is belittling Pippen, im sure it'll be the biggest thing on Insidehoops. Until then, let it go.

One more thing.....as far a Hulk Hogan, I sincerely hope you dont go about life with that type of attitude toward people. Why would we treat Hogan like a bigggot if we had no.reason to? Yourd right we dont know what people are thinking. But its not right to assume what they are thinking without any tangible evidence.

I'd like to ask. What evidence would lead you to believe that Jordan would say different behind closed doors? Hes never struck me as a person that would lie about something like that. He has nothing but praise for Pippen by all accounts. If he didn't at worst he probably just wouldn't say anything negative about Pippen instead of lying. If he felt he Pippen wasn't that good.

[97 bulls]

Don't do 'im like that, breh. :cheers:

Of course, I love me some Pippen, and yes, the Bulls wouldn't have won as much without him, but certain Pippen fans fall for the MJ haters crap when they prop Scottie up to take shots at MJ.

Fact is, without MJ, Pip wouldn't have become a HOFer (he straight up said MJ is the reason he became the player he did) and the Bulls wouldn't have even come close to winning any titles.
Again with the revisionist history. They needed each other. How do you know.Pippen wouldn't have thrived in a different situation? Why are we acting like its a guven that Jordan would've won multiple championships regardless of his situation? When we know.how he faired without great players.

And thats not a knock on Jordan. No one wins by himself. We've seen it time and time again. Jordan wasn't very successful early in his career because he didn't have much help.

[Asukal]

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:

"Cherrypicker" Loseruss getting body bagged as usual. :applause:

[DonDadda59]

Again with the revisionist history. They needed each other. How do you know.Pippen wouldn't have thrived in a different situation? Why are we acting like its a guven that Jordan would've won multiple championships regardless of his situation? When we know.how he faired without great players.

And thats not a knock on Jordan. No one wins by himself. We've seen it time and time again. Jordan wasn't very successful early in his career because he didn't have much help.

He played on one stacked roster after another following another Jordan-fueled 3 peat and his impact was negligible.

Joined up with Hakeem and Barkley, they lost in the first round.

Joined a stacked Blazers squad that had lost in the WCF before he got there... then proceeded to 4th option them to another WCF loss.

But right, right... he was a shell of himself... after brokebacking his way to a 6th title in '98. :rolleyes:

Put a 32 year old Jordan on a squad that made a conference finals without him... what happens?


http://images.rapgenius.com/dz9y0cr73xyvzi77jw0u0cw5m.1000x650x1.jpg

:bowdown:

[MJistheGOAT]

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:

What a ether!!! :biggums:
Essay is coming.

[kennethgriffin]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"


i just realized how creepy this video is at 10:10

you hear jordan talk about how him and his wife/charles get in arguments and they tell him the truth...

then you realize he's no longer married to her nore friends with charles anymore because they "told him the truth"

hes a liar, a cheater, a bad buisness man


thats all it took. the truth hurts eh mike

[97 bulls]

He played on one stacked roster after another following another Jordan-fueled 3 peat and his impact was negligible.

Joined up with Hakeem and Barkley, they lost in the first round.

Joined a stacked Blazers squad that had lost in the WCF before he got there... then proceeded to 4th option them to another WCF loss.

But right, right... he was a shell of himself... after brokebacking his way to a 6th title in '98. :rolleyes:

Put a 32 year old Jordan on a squad that made a conference finals without him... what happens?
No one is comparing him to Jordan or saying he is better than Jordan. He played a significant role on the Bulls.

If you go no holds barred on Pippen then apply the same logic to Jordan. He didn't do much early in his career or with the Wizards. But let me guess. He ws old with the Wizards and it was all his teams fault early in his career right? See what I did there?



:bowdown:[/QUOTE]

[Round Mound]

Why does Jordan have ti throw Pippen under the bus??? Because it doesn't fall in line with your narrative? Come on.


Malone chose Oscar Robertson over Jordan. Not Pippen. He then recanted his statement.


I don't see what your point is. Barkley felt he had enough then after losing obviously realised he didn't. People can change their minds you know. Hes also called Jordan the great ever. Is he talking out of his ass on that stance as well?


Thats and the fact that he had a better team than they did. You gonna tell me the that the Suns without Barkley were better than the Bulls without Jordan?

:applause: And Also.....Pippen > Any Other Sun Not Named Charles Barkley!

[Asukal]

:applause: And Also.....Pippen > Any Other Sun Not Named Charles Barkley!

Actually pippen is better than barkley. :rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

Actually pippen is better than barkley. :rolleyes:

Now don`t go to far. :no:

[Asukal]

Now don`t go to far. :no:

But this is what OP is trying to do. Prop up pippen to legendary status. :oldlol:

[Round Mound]

But this is what OP is trying to do. Prop up pippen to legendary status. :oldlol:

He is wrong. Pippen is a Top 7 All Time SF and a Top 50 Player of All Time Respected By All Real B-Ball Fans. Everyone Who Watached Basketball During That Era Knows How Good Pippen Was (No Need To Mention The 1993-94 season). Pippen Was Better Than Any Sun Not Named Charles Barkley. Thats Why They Won. Pippen and Grant Did Everything They Could To Stop Barkley and They Did Ok But The Perimeter D Of Pippen and Jordan Just Destroyed The Suns Backcourt. The Suns Had No Center and KJ Just Wanted To Penetrate All Day and Not Get Others Involved Making It Predictable For THe Bulls Backcourt Too (Also Barkley Got Elbow Injured in Game 2).People Forget Grant But Grant Was Also One Of The Best Defensive Powerforwards of That Era Plus a 14-10 Dude Who Could Shoot Mid Range Shots. The Bulls Had a Great Team Both Defensively and Offensively, The Suns Just Offensively

[scandisk_]

sweet ether

Here come's the Long essay explaining shit and hypothetical scenarios.

[bdreason]

Barkley and Pippen would have been scary.

[TheMan]

Remove every team's best player in the decade of the 90's, excluding the '94 Bulls who went 55-27 without their's, and the Bulls likely would have won six rings, and maybe more. For sure they would have won from '94 thru '98.

That's why it just amazes me how the Jordanites (not all of them of course, just the idiotic ones) claim that he was carrying trash to six rings.

The reality was, his teammates were good enough in '94 to win 55 games (and with Pippen and Grant missing 22 of them) and nearly knocked off the 56-26 Knicks in seven games (and had they had HCA they likely would have won.) The same NY team that lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points in the Finals.

And as talented as that '94 team was, without MJ, they were considerably more talented from '96 on. They had Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, and a capable 20 ppg scorer in Harper, as well as deep rosters.

No rational fan here would argue Jordan's greatness. But he was winning six rings with the best supporting casts in the decade of the 90's.
I highly doubt the Bulls win anything close to 6 titles, even with this goofy scenario of removing every team's best player. No way the first threepeat with Pippen, Grant and...BJ? Pax? lol

Now the 95-98 clubs with the addition of Rodman and Kukoc gives you a big three of Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman but don't think they just waltz over Sonics Kemp, Hawkins, Perkins and Schrempf or Magic Penny, Anderson, Grant and Scott or Pacers Mullin, McKey, Smits and Jackson...

Also, those 80s 76ers, Celtics, Lakers and Pistons were stacked enough that you could also see them winning titles without their best players, just not the exact same way as it went down and some might win more and some might win less. Anyways, this is something impossible to prove, it's all hypothetical.

[TheMan]

Replace Jordan with him on the Bulls, who were able to win six rings with pure crap at center, and he would have probably won a ring every year in the 90's.

Hell, the '94 Bulls won 55 games with no MJ, and nothing at center. Put a prime Wilt on that team, and they might not have lost a game.
:biggums:

[TheMan]

i just realized how creepy this video is at 10:10

you hear jordan talk about how him and his wife/charles get in arguments and they tell him the truth...

then you realize he's no longer married to her nore friends with charles anymore because they "told him the truth"

hes a liar, a cheater, a bad buisness man


thats all it took. the truth hurts eh mike
He's no rapist doe :pimp:

[Asukal]

:biggums:

Grandpa is getting senile. Old age and missing his dead gay lover wilt is taking its toll. :oldlol:

[TheMan]

Grandpa is getting senile. Old age and missing his dead gay lover wilt is taking its toll. :oldlol:
:oldlol:

[scandisk_]

Barkley and Pippen would have been scary.

yep plus the dream

[guy]

Whatever you did. You have no proof. So why even "speculate". Here's your problem. We KNOW what Barkley said. You're "speculating" what Jordan would've said under a different scenario. And you're speculating on Barkleys intentions. Why? I have no clue. Other than it doesn't fall in line with your narrative.

Yoi don't know what Jordan has said behind closed doors. So don't even.bring that into the equation. By all accounts, Jordan knew he.couldn't win without Pippen. And show appreciation for his contributions. That's all we have to go on. Leave.it at that. If it comes out that Jordan is belittling Pippen, im sure it'll be the biggest thing on Insidehoops. Until then, let it go.

One more thing.....as far a Hulk Hogan, I sincerely hope you dont go about life with that type of attitude toward people. Why would we treat Hogan like a bigggot if we had no.reason to? Yourd right we dont know what people are thinking. But its not right to assume what they are thinking without any tangible evidence.

I'd like to ask. What evidence would lead you to believe that Jordan would say different behind closed doors? Hes never struck me as a person that would lie about something like that. He has nothing but praise for Pippen by all accounts. If he didn't at worst he probably just wouldn't say anything negative about Pippen instead of lying. If he felt he Pippen wasn't that good.

We also know Barkley has said stuff like Pippen was nothing without Jordan. So if we are taking all public comments seriously, how do we go about that?

I'm sure Jordan probably isn't lying and thinks Pippen was a great player. But he also probably thinks HE was that good that he would've beaten Barkley and been just as successful if they had switched teams throughout their career and Barkley was the one who had Pippen. He wouldn't be intending to belittle Pippen by saying that but he knows that's how people would view it. That's why he would never say it publicly, especially in that setting when it really wasn't that serious.

If that's what you think I meant with the Hogan example, then you're fu***** lost :roll:

We don't know what people say behind closed doors. We also know most try to avoid saying too much of how they feel In public, contradict themselves all the time, and have different agendas. So their public comments or noncomments are usually pointless and aren't evidence of anything.

[guy]

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:

Wow :oldlol:

[guy]

Shaq's been ripping on Pip lately. More harsh than Barkley ever did.

That's just vey recently though. Barkley has been throwing little shots here and there at Pippen for years.

[97 bulls]

I highly doubt the Bulls win anything close to 6 titles, even with this goofy scenario of removing every team's best player. No way the first threepeat with Pippen, Grant and...BJ? Pax? lol

Now the 95-98 clubs with the addition of Rodman and Kukoc gives you a big three of Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman but don't think they just waltz over Sonics Kemp, Hawkins, Perkins and Schrempf or Magic Penny, Anderson, Grant and Scott or Pacers Mullin, McKey, Smits and Jackson...

Also, those 80s 76ers, Celtics, Lakers and Pistons were stacked enough that you could also see them winning titles without their best players, just not the exact same way as it went down and some might win more and some might win less. Anyways, this is something impossible to prove, it's all hypothetical.
This is what I just dont get. We actually saw how most of these teams would fair without their top guy. The Bulls far and away faired the best. Granted ill agree I dont think the first three-peat squad goes very far. But the second? Wed have to say theyd be a perennial mid 50 win team. Well 60 if we're talking about removing the other teams best player. Assuming all teams are healthy. Look at the 97 team.

Kerr
Pippen
Kukoc
Rodman
Brian Williams.
Caffey

Brian Williams was a 16/9 guy who missed most of the 97 season due to a contract dispute. A full season with him in the line-up would've been epic.

[97 bulls]

But this is what OP is trying to do. Prop up pippen to legendary status. :oldlol:
How do you arrive at that conclusion?????? I mean, I feel he was a legendary player. But he wasnt a top tier type player. Second tier? Yes

[andgar923]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"

But again, it only shows how MJ is greater than Chuck by making those around him better.

Chuck had talent but he couldn't make them better players. HE played great but couldn't elevate his teammate's potential.

MJ on the other hand made his teammates into champions and made Pip into an all time great. Get mad all you guys want, those are FACTS.

There was a comment in which MJ actually chimed back at Chuck (paraphrasing) "who did you make better?" challenging Chuck's leadership.

MJ has always stated how critics chastised him for not making his teammates better like Magic and Bird to which he replied "I wish I could've had McHale, Worthy, Kareem to make better" again paraphrasing, then took it as a mission to make Sellers better. But Sellers was a crack head, then he saw potential in Pip and decided to take him under his wing and the rest is history.

[sdot_thadon]

How do you arrive at that conclusion?????? I mean, I feel he was a legendary player. But he wasnt a top tier type player. Second tier? Yes
Exactly. Can't understand for the life of me how bulls fans from those days can always try to bring scottie down.

Edit** oh wait and with the caveat that he made his team better too, after seeing the above post. So he makes them better, yet they still aren't good?

[guy]

But again, it only shows how MJ is greater than Chuck by making those around him better.

Chuck had talent but he couldn't make them better players. HE played great but couldn't elevate his teammate's potential.

MJ on the other hand made his teammates into champions and made Pip into an all time great. Get mad all you guys want, those are FACTS.

There was a comment in which MJ actually chimed back at Chuck (paraphrasing) "who did you make better?" challenging Chuck's leadership.

MJ has always stated how critics chastised him for not making his teammates better like Magic and Bird to which he replied "I wish I could've had McHale, Worthy, Kareem to make better" again paraphrasing, then took it as a mission to make Sellers better. But Sellers was a crack head, then he saw potential in Pip and decided to take him under his wing and the rest is history.

The premise of this thread is stupid in general. It's human nature to not want to admit someone else is better then you at their craft and instead make up other excuses for why that someone else beat you i.e. He had more help. Anyone that takes those opinions seriously probably believes everything a politician says.

[97 bulls]

We also know Barkley has said stuff like Pippen was nothing without Jordan. So if we are taking all public comments seriously, how do we go about that?
Don't remember those quotes. I do remember him taking a paycut to get Pip to Houston. And being mad that Pippen requested to be traded. Regardless he felt Pippen was better than anyone he had on his teams. Which is probably true considering where they were when he joined them.


I'm sure Jordan probably isn't lying and thinks Pippen was a great player. But he also probably thinks HE was that good that he would've beaten Barkley and been just as successful if they had switched teams throughout their career and Barkley was the one who had Pippen.
Well we don't know if he thinks that. All we know is what hes stated publicly so lets just take him at his word.


He wouldn't be intending to belittle Pippen by saying that but he knows that's how people would view it. That's why he would never say it publicly, especially in that setting when it really wasn't that serious.
Again. We will never know. It's all speculation.


If that's what you think I meant with the Hogan example, then you're fu***** lost :roll:

We don't know what people say behind closed doors. We also know most try to avoid saying too much of how they feel In public, contradict themselves all the time, and have different agendas.
Right. And we also dont assume what a pereon may be thinking because thats not right.


So their public comments or noncomments are usually pointless and aren't evidence of anything.
This is incredibly stupid. I hope you dont live your life like that

[97 bulls]

But again, it only shows how MJ is greater than Chuck by making those around him better.

Chuck had talent but he couldn't make them better players. HE played great but couldn't elevate his teammate's potential.

MJ on the other hand made his teammates into champions and made Pip into an all time great. Get mad all you guys want, those are FACTS.

There was a comment in which MJ actually chimed back at Chuck (paraphrasing) "who did you make better?" challenging Chuck's leadership.

MJ has always stated how critics chastised him for not making his teammates better like Magic and Bird to which he replied "I wish I could've had McHale, Worthy, Kareem to make better" again paraphrasing, then took it as a mission to make Sellers better. But Sellers was a crack head, then he saw potential in Pip and decided to take him under his wing and the rest is history.
How is this a fact????? Jordan wasn't a championship when Grant and Pippen.joined him.

Again. Is it far fetched to say that Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were better basketball players than Kevin Johnson, an old Dr.J and Moses Malone, and an old Olanuwan and Scottie Pippen. Come on. Whose being the unreasonable one here?

[ArbitraryWater]

Decline yes. But to the point where it was a difference maker? Or made one better than the other? No. Either way the point is that you guys feel you know more than the person himself when discussing said person.

http://cdn.niketalk.com/e/eb/eb9739ef_bill-cosby-confused-face-475x365.png

[97 bulls]

The premise of this thread is stupid in general. It's human nature to not want to admit someone else is better then you at their craft and instead make up other excuses for why that someone else beat you i.e. He had more help. Anyone that takes those opinions seriously probably believes everything a politician says.
They were a 55 win team when Jordan left. Let's use some common sense here. Is it really a stretch to feel Jordan had a great team if they were that good without him??????

[sdot_thadon]

How is this a fact????? Jordan wasn't a championship when Grant and Pippen.joined him.

Again. Is it far fetched to say that Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were better basketball players than Kevin Johnson, an old Dr.J and Moses Malone, and an old Olanuwan and Scottie Pippen. Come on. Whose being the unreasonable one here?
I'm still scratching my head on how Mj made them better but apparently they still weren't good enough to get credit......Either they were outright bums, and Mj wasn't very good at making them better as some say or they need credit.

[ArbitraryWater]

97 bulls is a huge retard.. same guy thats like "GOD DOESNT WANT YOU TO BE HOMO!" :lol

stop talking to him.

[andgar923]

MJ also lashed out at Chuck during a game stating that Chuck would never win at anything, again alluding to his poor leadership and inability to make those around him better.

Chuck had chances but never made it over the hump.

[andgar923]

How is this a fact????? Jordan wasn't a championship when Grant and Pippen.joined him.

Again. Is it far fetched to say that Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were better basketball players than Kevin Johnson, an old Dr.J and Moses Malone, and an old Olanuwan and Scottie Pippen. Come on. Whose being the unreasonable one here?
It's a FACT that MJ made them better because all involved within the team, NBA, media have stated so.

No matter how hard you and others try to deny FACTS it doesn't change reality.

[andgar923]

I'm still scratching my head on how Mj made them better but apparently they still weren't good enough to get credit......Either they were outright bums, and Mj wasn't very good at making them better as some say or they need credit.

I never stated they were bums.

That was Shaq.

Show me where I stated they were "bums".

[sdot_thadon]

I never stated they were bums.

That was Shaq.

Show me where I stated they were "bums".
You never have to, refusal to give them any credit says enough.

[andgar923]

They were a 55 win team when Jordan left. Let's use some common sense here. Is it really a stretch to feel Jordan had a great team if they were that good without him??????
Because he instilled the discipline, mental toughness, confidence, etc etc to succeed with a life after him.

It's like a big brother setting the example and guiding his siblings into being the best they can be. The lessons learned establish the foundation that doesn't go away.

The journeymen that joined the Bulls allude to how MJ impacted them, and how those lessons stuck with them.

An example is Dean Smith serving as that leader in MJ's career.

Not rocket science.

[sdot_thadon]

Because he instilled the discipline, mental toughness, confidence, etc etc to succeed with a life after him.

It's like a big brother setting the example and guiding his siblings into being the best they can be. The lessons learned establish the foundation that doesn't go away.

The journeymen that joined the Bulls allude to how MJ impacted them, and how those lessons stuck with them.

An example is Dean Smith serving as that leader in MJ's career.

Not rocket science.
I've heard of hero worship but damn son. Gotta come up for air sometimes bro.

[97 bulls]

It's a FACT that MJ made them better because all involved within the team, NBA, media have stated so.

No matter how hard you and others try to deny FACTS it doesn't change reality.
Fine. And Jordan credits Pippen for his success. As does Tex Winter. If Phil Jackson doesn't get Jordan to buy into his system, who knows what happens.

I especially appreciate Winter's summary. As to who needed who more. What does Pippen need Jordan for? According to you guys, he would've been nothing without him either way. But Jordan?????? I mean his status reached out of this world status because of how much winning he did. He falls a hell of a lot farther than Pippen does if neither played together.

[Parps]

Did Charles say he was a great dresser??? (5:25 mark)

[guy]

Don't remember those quotes. I do remember him taking a paycut to get Pip to Houston. And being mad that Pippen requested to be traded. Regardless he felt Pippen was better than anyone he had on his teams. Which is probably true considering where they were when he joined them.


Well we don't know if he thinks that. All we know is what hes stated publicly so lets just take him at his word.


Again. We will never know. It's all speculation.


Right. And we also dont assume what a pereon may be thinking because thats not right.


This is incredibly stupid. I hope you dont live your life like that

Can't find the quote but it was recently on inside the NBA and he was talking about how he recruited Pippen and then said something along the lines of he didn't realize Pippen was nothing without Jordan. It was lighthearted but so was his Oprah quote. Neither should be taken that seriously cause it was lighthearted and because they clearly contradict each other.

Live my life like that? I don't live a life where public figures' public comments really affect my life one way or the other. I also don't believe in fairy tales and unicorns where everyone is as nice in real life as they are on camera. You probably believe the "NBA Cares" :oldlol:

I never said Jordan didn't feel he had a great team. I said he probably feels his rivals had good enough supporting casts and shouldn't be making excuses. Don't twist what I said.

[Straight_Ballin]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"

This just confirms that Pippen had a bigger overall impact on his title winning teams than Lebron had on his.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm saying doe :lol

Old man Laz keeps harping on how the Bulls won 55 games and made the second round without Jordan (in between 3-peats with Jordan mind you), but overlooks the fact that the '68 Lakers made the finals without Wilt. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games, Wilt joins the squad they win 3 more regular season game and 1 more game in the finals while again losing to the Celtics.

So Dippy took a team that made the finals before he got there (Philly won 55 games after he left btw) and only managed to go 1/4 in the finals to close out his career.

And this dude Lazeruss has the gall to try to nip at the GOAT's heel :yaohappy:

I have already blown this RIDICULOUS argument to shreds before.

Wilt was "traded" (the Sixers didn't want to part with the GOAT, he forced them to) to the Lakers for THREE players, one a 20 ppg scoring guard, and another a 10-13 center. TRADED.

Unlike MJ, who QUIT. The Bulls got NOTHING for MJ.

And the Sixers STILL dropped SEVEN games from the previous season. AND then it really becomes comical. Those two players (Clark and Imhoff) combined to average 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the playoffs. And it gets even BETTER. In the previous season's EDF's, Chamberlain took an injury-riddled team (including himself), that was MISSING HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a game seven four point loss against the same Celtic team that the '69 Sixers would face in the FIRST ROUND. BUT, the '69 Sixers HAD Cunningham, who would average 24 ppg in that first round series. Guess what? The Sixers were BLOWN OUT by the 48-34 Celtics, 4-1, in a series with a 10+ ppg average differential!

In other words...an INJURED Wilt, with HALF of his supporting cast either injured, or MISSING, lost a game seven by four points...to the same team that would BLOW OUT the '69 Sixers with a collective 60 ppg and 20 rpg replacing Wilt!

Now, onto the '69 Lakers. A team that IMPROVED by three games. Even though they TRADED 30 ppg and 15 rpg away to get Wilt. Oh, and the Lakers ALSO lost HOFer Gail Goodrich, and his 13 ppg in the expansion draft (Goodrich was THE prize in the draft BTW.) So, Wilt was basically replacing...
42 ppg and 18 rpg...and they STILL improved.

Oh, and Jerry West missed 21 games in '69 (and LA still went 12-9 in those), and Baylor missed 6 more (and LA went 5-1 in those.)

Then, in the '68 Finals, Boston beat the Lakers, 4-2, including a solid win in the clincher.

In the '69 Finals, the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from romping to a 4-1 series win. LA was leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 in game four, with only seconds remaining...and they also had the ball. The bone-headed coach VBK, put the ball in the hands of journeyman Johnny Egan (the Lakers went from THREE outstanding guards in '68...to just ONE in '69...and had to scramble to find this goofball.) Well, of course Egan was stripped, and then Sam Jones hit the game-winner, while falling down, at the buzzer. Given LA's 117-104 win in game five...that ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a title.

As it was, VBK left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss...and was basically immediately fired right after the game. Van Breda Kolff not only cost the city of los Angeles their first NBA title, he basically ruined his own career, as well.

Of course, Chamberlain would lead the Lakers to an overwhelming title a couple of years later.


And speaking of complete FLOP JOBS...how about what the Lakers gave Kareem in '78? LA had gone a league-leading 53-29 in the '77 season (but were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's.) SO, the Lakers drafted Norm Nixon, and signed BOTH Jamaal Wilkes (he and Barry having won a ring in '75 BTW), AND Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they acquired him.

Think about that. The '78 Lakers ADDED Wilkes, Dantley, and Nixon...to a 53-29 roster...and guess what? LA went 45-37 and were routed in the first round by a Sonics team that had one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) And just to prove it was no fluke...with the SAME EXACT ROSTER the next season... 47-35. Oh, and the same Sonics team routed them in the WCF's, 4-1.

Thank god KAJ's career would be saved by MAGIC the very next season. MAGIC took that severely underachieving mess, to a 60-22 record; a 4-1 blow-out of those SAME Sonics in the WCF's; and then a dominating Finals win over the Sixers.

And the rest was history.

[bond10]

I have already blown this RIDICULOUS argument to shreds before.

Wilt was "traded" (the Sixers didn't want to part with the GOAT, he forced them to) to the Lakers for THREE players, one a 20 ppg scoring guard, and another a 10-13 center. TRADED.

Unlike MJ, who QUIT. The Bulls got NOTHING for MJ.

And the Sixers STILL dropped SEVEN games from the previous season. AND then it really becomes comical. Those two players (Clark and Imhoff) combined to average 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the playoffs. And it gets even BETTER. In the previous season's EDF's, Chamberlain took an injury-riddled team (including himself), that was MISSING HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a game seven four point loss against the same Celtic team that the '69 Sixers would face in the FIRST ROUND. BUT, the '69 Sixers HAD Cunningham, who would average 24 ppg in that first round series. Guess what? The Sixers were BLOWN OUT by the 48-34 Celtics, 4-1, in a series with a 10+ ppg average differential!

In other words...an INJURED Wilt, with HALF of his supporting cast either injured, or MISSING, lost a game seven by four points...to the same team that would BLOW OUT the '69 Sixers with a collective 60 ppg and 20 rpg replacing Wilt!

Now, onto the '69 Lakers. A team that IMPROVED by three games. Even though they TRADED 30 ppg and 15 rpg away to get Wilt. Oh, and the Lakers ALSO lost HOFer Gail Goodrich, and his 13 ppg in the expansion draft (Goodrich was THE prize in the draft BTW.) So, Wilt was basically replacing...
42 ppg and 18 rpg...and they STILL improved.

Oh, and Jerry West missed 21 games in '69 (and LA still went 12-9 in those), and Baylor missed 6 more (and LA went 5-1 in those.)

Then, in the '68 Finals, Boston beat the Lakers, 4-2, including a solid win in the clincher.

In the '69 Finals, the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from romping to a 4-1 series win. LA was leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 in game four, with only seconds remaining...and they also had the ball. The bone-headed coach VBK, put the ball in the hands of journeyman Johnny Egan (the Lakers went from THREE outstanding guards in '68...to just ONE in '69...and had to scramble to find this goofball.) Well, of course Egan was stripped, and then Sam Jones hit the game-winner, while falling down, at the buzzer. Given LA's 117-104 win in game five...that ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a title.

As it was, VBK left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss...and was basically immediately fired right after the game. Van Breda Kolff not only cost the city of los Angeles their first NBA title, he basically ruined his own career, as well.

Of course, Chamberlain would lead the Lakers to an overwhelming title a couple of years later.


And speaking of complete FLOP JOBS...how about what the Lakers gave Kareem in '78? LA had gone a league-leading 53-29 in the '77 season (but were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's.) SO, the Lakers drafted Norm Nixon, and signed BOTH Jamaal Wilkes (he and Barry having won a ring in '75 BTW), AND Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they acquired him.

Think about that. The '78 Lakers ADDED Wilkes, Dantley, and Nixon...to a 53-29 roster...and guess what? LA went 45-37 and were routed in the first round by a Sonics team that had one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) And just to prove it was no fluke...with the SAME EXACT ROSTER the next season... 47-35. Oh, and the same Sonics team routed them in the WCF's, 4-1.

Thank god KAJ's career would be saved by MAGIC the very next season. MAGIC took that severely underachieving mess, to a 60-22 record; a 4-1 blow-out of those SAME Sonics in the WCF's; and then a dominating Finals win over the Sixers.

And the rest was history.

Excuses. just like Wilt's entire career.

[TheMan]

I've heard of hero worship but damn son. Gotta come up for air sometimes bro.
Actually, andgar isn't far off...this is Horace Grant...

[quote]You could put any offense in front of Michael Jordan and he could give you 35 to 45 points a night,

[Da_Realist]

Actually, andgar isn't far off...this is Horace Grant...


:confusedshrug: So HoGrant lying?


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/ex-teammate-horace-grant-celebrates-greatness-of-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-121014

Meanwhile...

DAN MAJERLE (Suns shooting guard): My whole persona was to play hard every day in practice, but that wasn't Charles's philosophy. What we came to understand, though, was that he was perfect for our team. He opened up everything on the offensive end.

WESTPHAL (Suns coach): Next to Shaq, Charles may have been the worst player in history at defending the pick-and-roll. We're playing Utah early in the season, and Charles is in the wrong place one time on the pick-and-roll. Then we change it, and he's in the wrong place again. And I say, "Charles, just tell me what you want to do." And he says. "I'll let the guy come through, then clothesline him. That's what I really want to do." So late in the game they run a pick-and-roll, and Charles steals it from John Stockton to win the game. He says to me, "It's not that I can't play defense, it's just that I don't always want to."

WESTPHAL: Charles would get you the 20-point lead, but sometimes it was only safe if you got him out of the game. If you kept him in, pretty soon your lead might be gone because he didn't always concentrate.

http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/10/106332820/the-best-finals-ever

[TheMan]

Meanwhile...

DAN MAJERLE (Suns shooting guard): My whole persona was to play hard every day in practice, but that wasn't Charles's philosophy. What we came to understand, though, was that he was perfect for our team. He opened up everything on the offensive end.

WESTPHAL (Suns coach): Next to Shaq, Charles may have been the worst player in history at defending the pick-and-roll. We're playing Utah early in the season, and Charles is in the wrong place one time on the pick-and-roll. Then we change it, and he's in the wrong place again. And I say, "Charles, just tell me what you want to do." And he says. "I'll let the guy come through, then clothesline him. That's what I really want to do." So late in the game they run a pick-and-roll, and Charles steals it from John Stockton to win the game. He says to me, "It's not that I can't play defense, it's just that I don't always want to."

WESTPHAL: Charles would get you the 20-point lead, but sometimes it was only safe if you got him out of the game. If you kept him in, pretty soon your lead might be gone because he didn't always concentrate.

http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/10/106332820/the-best-finals-ever
Yup, you could accuse MJ of trying to win games by himself early in his career when he didn't have much talent around him but you can never accuse him of being lazy and not trying hard on both sides of the ball. That rubs off on teammates but it looks like a lot of dudes here don't understand that concept :rolleyes:

[guy]

Actually, andgar isn't far off...this is Horace Grant...


:confusedshrug: So HoGrant lying?


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/ex-teammate-horace-grant-celebrates-greatness-of-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-121014

Detractors will completely ignore this and act like it had no effect on what happened in 94. What's worse is most other superstars don't have that type of effect on their team so when they are out for an extended period and the team has a bigger drop-off, they actually get credit while its used against someone like Jordan.

It all goes in one big circle. If Barkley was drafted onto the Bulls and still ended up with Pippen and a Grant equivalent, the Bulls may have still been elite just based off talent, but even then not nearly as good as they were with Jordan. And then if Barkley retired in 94 the drop-off would've been much larger then it was with Jordan and he would've been praised for it. Jordan on the other hand would've had a similar effect as he did with the Bulls on the Sixers, Suns, and/or Rockets, and would be beating Barkley's Bulls. As a result, it would still be the same old shit as it is today, i.e. People saying Barkley would've beaten Jordan if he had Jordan's teams. You can apply this same thing to so many other superstars who apparently never had enough help.

[97 bulls]

Detractors will completely ignore this and act like it had no effect on what happened in 94. What's worse is most other superstars don't have that type of effect on their team so when they are out for an extended period and the team has a bigger drop-off, they actually get credit while its used against someone like Jordan.

It all goes in one big circle. If Barkley was drafted onto the Bulls and still ended up with Pippen and a Grant equivalent, the Bulls may have still been elite just based off talent, but even then not nearly as good as they were with Jordan. And then if Barkley retired in 94 the drop-off would've been much larger then it was with Jordan and he would've been praised for it. Jordan on the other hand would've had a similar effect as he did with the Bulls on the Sixers, Suns, and/or Rockets, and would be beating Barkley's Bulls. As a result, it would still be the same old shit as it is today, i.e. People saying Barkley would've beaten Jordan if he had Jordan's teams. You can apply this same thing to so many other superstars who apparently never had enough help.
Here we go again.TOTALLY IGNORING WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. So are you saying thag if you took Barkley off the Suns and Jordan off the Bulls the Suns were a better team???? Not more talented. But a better team.

[guy]

Here we go again.TOTALLY IGNORING WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. So are you saying thag if you took Barkley off the Suns and Jordan off the Bulls the Suns were a better team???? Not more talented. But a better team.

What am I ignoring? I laid out a completely different scenario. I didn't change any facts.

Where did I say any of that? It's not even relevant to my post.

[bizil]

https://youtu.be/ykMgwNDsH8c

And this sentiment is echoed by many others. In particular Clyde Drexler and Karl Malone. Both give Pippen full credit for his role in six championships. And both feel theh would've won had he been on their team as well.

And Jordan didn't argue it either.

Mind you. This is NOT an indictment of Jordan. He's the greatest ever to play. But it gives a perspective on how Pippens peers felt about him. And how overrated winning as the "man" is. Pippen played a huge role in the Bulls six titles, record setting 72 win season,.qnd their 69 win season.

I like how Oprah looks at Jordan as if to say "he has a point Mike"

Any student of the game knows that Pippen's evolution was THE MAIN INGREDIENT that took the Bulls to the next level. For the Bulls to get there, MJ needed help. He couldn't do it by himself. NOBODY can do it by themselves!! Back then, MJ HAD to be the Bulls best scorer, passer, and defender. With Pippen, he COULD BE the primary playmaker. And be the guy to check the other team's top scorer. And on top of it get 20-22 points a night. So at that point, u had two guys redefining the SG and SF positions AT THE SAME TIME ON THE SAME TEAM! At the time, it hadn't been done since West-Baylor

In comparison to the another dynasty or juggernaut kind of teams, the Bulls didn't have their kind of depth. I'm talking teams like the 60's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and the Spurs. But MJ AND Pip together covered so many holes that it made up for depth issues. Until Lebron came around, Pippen was the most versatile SF of all time.

[DonDadda59]

I have already blown this RIDICULOUS argument to shreds before.

Wilt was "traded" (the Sixers didn't want to part with the GOAT, he forced them to) to the Lakers for THREE players, one a 20 ppg scoring guard, and another a 10-13 center. TRADED.

Unlike MJ, who QUIT. The Bulls got NOTHING for MJ.

And the Sixers STILL dropped SEVEN games from the previous season. AND then it really becomes comical. Those two players (Clark and Imhoff) combined to average 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the playoffs. And it gets even BETTER. In the previous season's EDF's, Chamberlain took an injury-riddled team (including himself), that was MISSING HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a game seven four point loss against the same Celtic team that the '69 Sixers would face in the FIRST ROUND. BUT, the '69 Sixers HAD Cunningham, who would average 24 ppg in that first round series. Guess what? The Sixers were BLOWN OUT by the 48-34 Celtics, 4-1, in a series with a 10+ ppg average differential!

In other words...an INJURED Wilt, with HALF of his supporting cast either injured, or MISSING, lost a game seven by four points...to the same team that would BLOW OUT the '69 Sixers with a collective 60 ppg and 20 rpg replacing Wilt!

Now, onto the '69 Lakers. A team that IMPROVED by three games. Even though they TRADED 30 ppg and 15 rpg away to get Wilt. Oh, and the Lakers ALSO lost HOFer Gail Goodrich, and his 13 ppg in the expansion draft (Goodrich was THE prize in the draft BTW.) So, Wilt was basically replacing...
42 ppg and 18 rpg...and they STILL improved.

Oh, and Jerry West missed 21 games in '69 (and LA still went 12-9 in those), and Baylor missed 6 more (and LA went 5-1 in those.)

Then, in the '68 Finals, Boston beat the Lakers, 4-2, including a solid win in the clincher.

In the '69 Finals, the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from romping to a 4-1 series win. LA was leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 in game four, with only seconds remaining...and they also had the ball. The bone-headed coach VBK, put the ball in the hands of journeyman Johnny Egan (the Lakers went from THREE outstanding guards in '68...to just ONE in '69...and had to scramble to find this goofball.) Well, of course Egan was stripped, and then Sam Jones hit the game-winner, while falling down, at the buzzer. Given LA's 117-104 win in game five...that ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a title.

As it was, VBK left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss...and was basically immediately fired right after the game. Van Breda Kolff not only cost the city of los Angeles their first NBA title, he basically ruined his own career, as well.

Of course, Chamberlain would lead the Lakers to an overwhelming title a couple of years later.


And speaking of complete FLOP JOBS...how about what the Lakers gave Kareem in '78? LA had gone a league-leading 53-29 in the '77 season (but were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's.) SO, the Lakers drafted Norm Nixon, and signed BOTH Jamaal Wilkes (he and Barry having won a ring in '75 BTW), AND Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they acquired him.

Think about that. The '78 Lakers ADDED Wilkes, Dantley, and Nixon...to a 53-29 roster...and guess what? LA went 45-37 and were routed in the first round by a Sonics team that had one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) And just to prove it was no fluke...with the SAME EXACT ROSTER the next season... 47-35. Oh, and the same Sonics team routed them in the WCF's, 4-1.

Thank god KAJ's career would be saved by MAGIC the very next season. MAGIC took that severely underachieving mess, to a 60-22 record; a 4-1 blow-out of those SAME Sonics in the WCF's; and then a dominating Finals win over the Sixers.

And the rest was history.

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

:bowdown: DonDadda59 took Lazeruss' Soul :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

:biggums:

Don snatching Laz' balls and using them as dice. Goodnight sweet price...

[Asukal]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

Loseruss forever holding the L

:party:

[97 bulls]

Because he instilled the discipline, mental toughness, confidence, etc etc to succeed with a life after him.

It's like a big brother setting the example and guiding his siblings into being the best they can be. The lessons learned establish the foundation that doesn't go away.

The journeymen that joined the Bulls allude to how MJ impacted them, and how those lessons stuck with them.

An example is Dean Smith serving as that leader in MJ's career.

Not rocket science.
Right. Just like every other player should and does do when a younger player joins their team.

And like I said earlier, Jordan said that Pippen made him a better player as well.

[LAZERUSS]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

Quite a bit actually.

The '69 Sixers didn't make it past the FIRST ROUND. In fact, they were annihilated by the 48-34 Celtics in the FIRST ROUND, 4-1, and the ppg differential was +10.4 ppg.

Think about that. Just the year before, Chamberlain (himself suffering multiple injuries)...dominated the Knicks and their FOUR HOFers (Reed, Bradley, Bellamy, and Frazier) in the first round (leading BOTH teams in ppg, rpg, apg, and FG%)...and then took this injured cast...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

to a game seven, four point loss against that same team that just slaughtered the '69 Sixers.

And again...Wilt's "replacements" put up sensational numbers in that FIRST ROUND BLOWOUT LOSS...averaging a combined 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shooting .510 from the field. AND, Billy Cunningham, who MISSED the ENTIRE '68 ECF's, averaged 24 ppg in the FIRST ROUND SHELLACKING that the Sixers took in '69.

The GOAT then took a horribly coached team (the coach would essentially b fired immediately after the '69 Finals, and his career was basically over), with a shot-jacking Baylor shooting 2-14, 4-18, and 8-22 in three of their losses, to a game seven loss by two points, against the same team that annihilated Wilt's former team.

BUT, it gets BETTER. The poorly coached Lakers threw all their eggs in West's basket, and h couldn't get the job done.

After that season, it was WILT who would carry each Laker team thereafter.

How did West do against Frazier in game seven of the '70 Finals? He was BUTCHERED. Meanwhile, a one-legged Chamberlain carried the Lakers to a must-win game six in that series, putting up a staggering 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game, and then crushing Reed in game seven with a 21-24 10-16 shooting game.

How about West in the '71 playoffs? Don't bother looking his performances up. He and Baylor didn't play a game in that post-season. Yet, a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, and in the worst season of his career, took his 48-34 team (again, without West and Baylor) to a series win over the 51-31 Bulls which included a TYPICAL "must-win" game seven performance of 25-19-9. Then, going up against a PEAK Alcindor (KAJ's greatest season of his career if you combine his regular season and post-season)...and the 66-16 Bucks...he OUTPLAYED a PEAK Kareem by a 3-1-1 margin in that series...albeit in a series loss.

THEN, Chamberlain did what a prime West and Baylor could not do together. He led his team to a dominating title in the 71-72 season. In the WCF's, A 35 year old Chamberlain, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, OUTPLAYED a PEAK Kareem, in the greatest regular season of his career..in leading his 69-13 Lakers to a 4-2 series win over KAJ's 63-19 Bucks. And he DOMINATED the 25 year old Kareem in the clinching game six on the road. And, in the Finals, Wilt CRUSHED the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers, with a 19-23 .600 series, which included a series clinching game of 24-29 on 10-14 shooting, with 8 blocked shots.

BTW, think about this. Kareem would miss 17 and 20 games twice in his career, with a broken wrist. Chamberlain not only PLAYED in that clinching game five win in the '72 Finals, with a broken wrist...he DOMINATED.

Oh, and how did "Mr. Clutch" West do in that '72 post-season? He shot .376 overall, and then in the Finals... .325 from the field!

It took Wilt's leadership to win a title in LA.

And then how about Wilt's last season? Kareem took his heavily-favored 60-22 Bucks down the toilet in the FIRST ROUND against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors (shooting .428 from the field against Nate.) The same Warrior team, and the same Warrior center, in which Wilt would just CRUSH. The 60-22 Lakers pummeled those Warriors, 4-1, including a 126-70 win on GS's home floor...in a series in which Chamberlain outrebounded Thurmond by a 24-17 rpg margin, and outshot Nate by a .611 to .373 margin.

True, the Knicks, and their SIX HOFers would beat Wilt's injury-riddled Lakers in the Finals...but it certainly wasn't Wilt's fault, as he hung an 11-19 .525 series, including a "must-win" game five of 23-21. Meanwhile, West was again just pathetic, and again, was just ABUSED by Frazier...shooting .446 overall, and in that "must-win" game five... 5-17.

BOILED DOWN...an aging Wilt had much more team success in the five years he was a Laker, than Kareem did in his four years in the league with Wilt. And again...LA's BEST player in those five seasons...UNQUESTIONABLY Wilt.

Oh, and BOILED DOWN...Wilt's '69 Sixers did FAR worse withOUT him, than what the '94 Bulls did withOUT Jordan. And it gets even worse when you factor in that Chamberlain was TRADED for THREE players to that Sixer team. How many players did the '94 Bulls get for MJ? Absolutely ZERO.

Thanks for playing though.

[sdot_thadon]

Actually, andgar isn't far off...this is Horace Grant...


:confusedshrug: So HoGrant lying?


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/ex-teammate-horace-grant-celebrates-greatness-of-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-121014
No, not at all. I believe in the concept but my problem with it lies in the gross contradictions that I see daily here.

"Mj made his teammates better, except they weren't better. They were the worst actually, he won with the least help. Teammate (fill in the blank) wasn't very good mj carried then to titles."

Understand my angle? Those type of ideas coming from the same ones who say the opposite depending on the debate. I'd like to see more realistic stuff from Mj fans, most of us should be proper adults by now.

[LAZERUSS]

Yup, you could accuse MJ of trying to win games by himself early in his career when he didn't have much talent around him but you can never accuse him of being lazy and not trying hard on both sides of the ball. That rubs off on teammates but it looks like a lot of dudes here don't understand that concept :rolleyes:

3ball loves to claim that Pippen lost the '90 ECF's against the Bad Boys, BUT, he conveniently overlooks MJ's game five in the '89 series against Detroit. With the series tied 2-2, MJ just QUIT. Flat-out QUIT on his team in game five. He took EIGHT FGAs in a 94-85 loss, which ultimately decided the series. And without an injured Pippen in game six...another defeat at the hands of the Bad Boys.

MJ had his flop jobs. In his '84-85 post-season, he was badly outplayed by Sidney Mongrief, in a 3-1 series loss. And in the clinching game four loss...6-16 shooting.

In his 85-86 first round, in the clinching game three sweeping loss...he again QUIT. He scored 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

In the first round of the '87 playoffs, he shot a combined .417 from the field. And how about his performance in the clinching (and sweeping) loss? An incredible 9-30 shot-jacking display. BTW, Charles Oakley hung a 20-15 series in that defeat.

And in the second round of the '88 playoffs, and against the Bad Boys? As ALWAYS, his scoring and efficiency declined considerably against them. In a season in which he averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%...he melted down to 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. In the clinching game five defeat...a paltry 25 points on 10-22 shooting.

You already know that he QUIT on his Bulls in the '89 ECF's. Just flat out QUIT.

And in the '90 ECF's against the Bad Boys? More of the same. In a season in which he averaged 33.6 on a .526 FG%...32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%...in a seven game series defeat.

How did MJ FINALLY get over the hump against the Pistons? In the '91 ECF's, while, and against a crumbling Piston team, while his numbers declined again...PIPPEN and GRANT just shelled Detroit. Pippen hung a 22-8-5-3-2 series on a .475 FG%, and the always efficient Grant put up a 14-8 .690 FG% series.

Of course, that trend would continue the rest of MJ's career. His TEAMMATES contributed HEAVILY to his six rings. They were so good that they could go 55-27 without him (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, likely 60+ wins, and probably a title.)

[DonDadda59]

http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files-258/0246.wall-of-text.png_2D00_610x0.png

Boiled down even further...

Philly 55 wins and the 2nd round after Dippy left, LA in the finals before he got there. LA 1/4 in the finals after that.

Tell me where I told a lie. :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

Right. Just like every other player should and does do when a younger player joins their team.

And like I said earlier, Jordan said that Pippen made him a better player as well.
This muf*cka keeps downplaying MJ by any means.

smh

[97 bulls]

This muf*cka keeps downplaying MJ by any means.

smh
Showing his teammates success is downplaying him? Wow.

[LAZERUSS]

Boiled down even further...

Philly 55 wins and the 2nd round after Dippy left, LA in the finals before he got there. LA 1/4 in the finals after that.

Tell me where I told a lie. :confusedshrug:

The '69 Sixers were SHELLED in the FIRST ROUND by the same team that an injured Chamberlain had taken to a game seven, four point loss in the EDF's just the year before. Oh, and his '68 production was basically replaced by...get this... 60 ppg and 24 rpg...in a first round blowout loss.

And, his Lakers were FAR more successful after they acquired Wilt, than before they had him.

Not only that, but after he retired, they went from a 60-22 team Finalist...down to a 47-35 team that was, again, BLOWN OUT in the FIRST ROUND.

Oh, and then the Lakers went out an got a prime Kareem...and in his first four seasons in LA... one WCF's, in which they were swept; one second round blowout loss to a much less talented team; one first round blowout loss to that same much less talented team; and one season in which he couldn't even get them into the playoffs.

Thank god for KAJ's sake, that MAGIC arrived. Without MAGIC, Kareem would have retired with ONE ring (and even that was deceptive...his 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round; a 48-34 Laker team without West and Baylor; and a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.)

[DonDadda59]

The '69 Sixers were SHELLED in the FIRST ROUND by the same team that an injured Chamberlain had taken to a game seven, four point loss in the EDF's just the year before. Oh, and his '68 production was basically replaced by...get this... 60 ppg and 24 rpg...in a first round blowout loss.

And, his Lakers were FAR more successful after they acquired Wilt, than before they had him.

Not only that, but after he retired, they went from a 60-22 team Finalist...down to a 47-35 team that was, again, BLOWN OUT in the FIRST ROUND.

Oh, and then the Lakers went out an got a prime Kareem...and in his first four seasons in LA... one WCF's, in which they were swept; one second round blowout loss to a much less talented team; one first round blowout loss to that same much less talented team; and one season in which he couldn't even get them into the playoffs.

Thank god for KAJ's sake, that MAGIC arrived. Without MAGIC, Kareem would have retired with ONE ring (and even that was deceptive...his 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round; a 48-34 Laker team without West and Baylor; and a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.)

So boiled down...

Kareem- 6 rangz
Dippy- 2 rangz

I never told no lies.

[LAZERUSS]

So boiled down...

Kareem- 6 rangz
Dippy- 2 rangz

I never told no lies.

Well, I just pointed all of them out.

And, remove MAGIC from Kareem's career...a 2-1 margin in rings for Wilt.

Wilt >>> KAJ.

[DonDadda59]

Well, I just pointed all of them out.

And, remove MAGIC from Kareem's career...a 2-1 margin in rings for Wilt.

Wilt >>> KAJ.

You are a ridiculous old curmudgeon. :lol

The Lakers made the finals without Wilt, with him they won only 1 out 4 attempts. Dippy had the better teammates in LA but as usual, always came up short when it counted. 6>2, KAJ>>>Wilt on any sane person's list.

And Kareem used Wilt as his personal dirty wash rag during their battles from Cap's rookie season until Wilt retired doing what he did best- losing in the finals.

[LAZERUSS]

You are a ridiculous old curmudgeon. :lol

The Lakers made the finals without Wilt, with him they won only 1 out 4 attempts. Dippy had the better teammates in LA but as usual, always came up short when it counted. 6>2, KAJ>>>Wilt on any sane person's list.

And Kareem used Wilt as his personal dirty wash rag during their battles from Cap's rookie season until Wilt retired doing what he did best- losing in the finals.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Kep believing that. Of course you never saw even ONE game between a way-past-his-peak Wilt, and a PEAK Kareem.

But I will help you out...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


In the post-season, the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls,[88] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[88] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played all 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[89] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[89] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior."

How about a MILWAUKEE newspaper account of that series?




Kareem’s Image as Best Suffered in Buck Defeat
Bob Wolf
The Milwaukee Journal, April 24, 1972

When the Milwaukee Bucks won the National Basketball Association championship a year ago, there was talk that they had a dynasty in the making.

But their dynasty ended before it really began, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s reputation as the greatest center of all time was tarnished in the process.

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar’s 230.

Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.

Because of the strong defensive work of his two veteran rivals, Abdul-Jabbar often was forced away from his favorite shooting positions. He took hook shots from 12 to 15 feet away instead of from 8 to 10, and sometimes he even resorted to 15 foot jump shots.

Keep It Up

As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, “Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That’s something he doesn’t usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it.”

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory, and Bucks Coach Larry Costello said, “I don’t want Kareem taking 15 footers. You do that and you’re just not playing your game.”

But Chamberlain’s dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar’s change in tactics, and Wilt’s performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career.



Ok, and how about their '71 playoff H2H?


Game 5 April 18, 1971

Bucks Await Championship Series
Wilt Wins 7-Foot Battle But Loses 7-Game Set
By BOB GREENE
Associated Press Sports Writer

MILWAUKEE — Wilt Chamberlain captured the battle of the seven-footers,
but soaring "Captain Marvel" powered t he Milwaukee Bucks to the Western
Conference title yesterday in the National Basketball Association playoffs.
The Bucks, 116-98 winners over the Los Angeles Lakers, now will take on
the Eastern Conference champions Wednesday night in the opening game of the best-of-7 championship series.

Milwaukee's opponent will be the winner of tonight's battle between
the New York Knicks and the Baltimore Bullets. The Bullets deadlocked their
semifinal series against the Knicks with a 113-96 victory
Sunday, forcing a seventh game in New York tonight

"Captain Marvel" is Greg Smith, the Bucks' 6 foot-5 forward
who is considered long on defense but short on offense.
Against the Lakers Sunday, he paced the Bucks with 22 points,
leading Milwaukee's well-balanced scoring attack.

"This is the first time I've led a team in scoring since I was in
high school," said Smith, a three year NBA veteran.
"That's seven years since I've been the high scorer."

While 7-2 Lew Alcindor and 7-1 Chamberlain battled, Smith
sneaked in time and again for crucial rebounds or vital points.
Because of foul trouble, he played only 23 minutes, less
than one-half of the game.

Chamberlain, the veteran Laker center, continued his dominance
outscoring the Bucks' center, 23-20, and blocked six shots
while Alcindor slapped away three would-be baskets.

Four times, Chamberlain knocked away an Alcindor field
goal attempt, and twice Alcindor did the same on Chamberlain's
shots.

In the rebounding battle, Alcindor finished with 15 and
Chamberlain 12.

Bob Dandridge added 20 points to Milwaukee's total.
High for Los Angeles was Happy Hairston with 27.
With their first conference crown in hand, the Bucks
immediately turned to their next goal, the NBA championship.
"We want the Knicks," said Robertson. "We have something
to prove. If we beat Baltimore, everyone will say the Knicks
were the best team, they lost because of injuries."

Alcindor agreed. "We want to be the best," he
said, "and we want to do it by beating the champions.


Again...this from a 34+ year old Wilt, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.

Of course we KNOW what happened when a pre-injury Wilt battled Kareem in their one H2H game...

Chamberlain just pounded him.

He outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2 (including TWO skyhooks), and outshot Kareem from the floor by a 9-14 (.643) to 9-21 (.429) margin.

And that was nowhere near a peak Chamberlain, either.

[sportjames23]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:


http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn-latino/health/Body%20Bag%20Brazil.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Kareem's biggest black eye(s) on his career resume...

His '77 Lakers went 53-29 (albeit, they were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's)...

So, LA drafted Norm Nixon; and acquired Jamaal Wilkes (who was a key member of Golden State's '75 championship), and who would go on to be a key player in two more titles with the Lakers; and acquired Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him from him from Indiana.

Think about that...the 53-29 Lakers ADDED Wilkes, Dantley, and Nixon...and the result... a 45-37 record. And just to prove it was no fluke, they went 47-35 the next season. And in both years they were routed by Sonics' teams with nowhere near as much talent in the playoffs.

Again...thank god for MAGIC...who immediately led the Lakers to a 60-22 record, a blowout of those same Sonics in the WCF's, and a demolition of the Sixers in the Finals...which included a 42-15-7 clinching game six, and with Kareem eating popcorn and watching that game from his couch.

[guy]

BTW, Kareem's biggest black eye(s) on his career resume...

His '77 Lakers went 53-29 (albeit, they were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's)...

So, LA drafted Norm Nixon; and acquired Jamaal Wilkes (who was a key member of Golden State's '75 championship), and who would go on to be a key player in two more titles with the Lakers; and acquired Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him from him from Indiana.

Think about that...the 53-29 Lakers ADDED Wilkes, Dantley, and Nixon...and the result... a 45-37 record. And just to prove it was no fluke, they went 47-35 the next season. And in both years they were routed by Sonics' teams with nowhere near as much talent in the playoffs.

Again...thank god for MAGIC...who immediately led the Lakers to a 60-22 record, a blowout of those same Sonics in the WCF's, and a demolition of the Sixers in the Finals...which included a 42-15-7 clinching game six, and with Kareem eating popcorn and watching that game from his couch.

Crazy. If Kareem was that bad it's hard to imagine how much Wilt sucked. Can't even put it in words.

[DonDadda59]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WpXbccWkqeY/hqdefault.jpg

Reality:

Regular Season

Dippy: 16.1 PPG/ 18.2 RPG/ 3.4 APG (52.6% FG/48.6% FT)

Cap: 31.0 PPG/ 16.4 RPG/ 3.9 APG(46.4% FG/71.6% FT)

Playoffs

Dippy: 15.9 PPG/ 18.8 rpg/ 2.7 APG (47.8 %FG/43.7% FT)

Cap: 29.7 PPG/ 17.5 rpg/ 4.5 apg (46.6% FG/69.4% FT)


How are you, the strongest man who ever lived, just gonna let a 230 lb man YAM it on you time and time again? (https://youtu.be/L2U4JSrpO78?t=2m40s) :biggums:

Kareem>>>>Dippy

[LAZERUSS]

Crazy. If Kareem was that bad it's hard to imagine how much Wilt sucked. Can't even put it in words.

Chamberlain's TEAMS were losing to all-time GREAT teams in his post-seasons, and with badly outmatched rosters. Oh, and he was winning rings against an eight-time defending (and 60-21) Celtics team (in a 4-1 series blow-out), and then knocking off a PEAK Kareem's 63-19 team en route to another dominating title. His teams lost to the greatest dynasty in NBA history seven times, with four game seven losses by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points...and in series in which Wilt either outplayed Russell, or downright crushed him. And His 46-36 Laker team lost a game seven to a 60-22 Knicks team that fielded FOUR HOFers.

Kareem was getting blown out with 60 win teams in the first round; 60 win teams in the second round; swept with HCA by a 49-33 team; routed twice in a row by 47-35 and 50-32 Sonics teams with far less talent; were blown-out in a game seven of the Finals on their home floor, and with Cowens outplaying Kareem in that game; and missed the playoffs two years in a row right in the middle of his prime.

[LAZERUSS]

Reality:

Regular Season

Dippy: 16.1 PPG/ 18.2 RPG/ 3.4 APG (52.6% FG/48.6% FT)

Cap: 31.0 PPG/ 16.4 RPG/ 3.9 APG(46.4% FG/71.6% FT)

Playoffs

Dippy: 15.9 PPG/ 18.8 rpg/ 2.7 APG (47.8 %FG/43.7% FT)

Cap: 29.7 PPG/ 17.5 rpg/ 4.5 apg (46.6% FG/69.4% FT)


How are you, the strongest man who ever lived, just gonna let a 230 lb man YAM it on you time and time again? (https://youtu.be/L2U4JSrpO78?t=2m40s) :biggums:

Kareem>>>>Dippy

And yet, by ALL ACCOUNTS of those who actually watched their playoff H2H's...Chamberlain DOMINATED Kareem.

Of course, in the only H2H in which Chamberlain battled Kareem before shredding his knee...just OWNED Kareem in EVERY facet of the game.

BTW, a 35-36 year old Wilt, in his last TEN STRAIGHT H2H's with a 25-26 year old Kareem...held KAJ to a combined .434 FG%. In season's in which Kareem shot .574 and .550 from the field.

[DonDadda59]

BTW, a 35-36 year old Wilt, in his last TEN STRAIGHT H2H's with a 25-26 year old Kareem...

Averaged 11 PPG, being held to under 10 points in 6 of those games including 0 points in their final meeting.

Kareem averaged 30.6 PPG during that span.

So what point were you trying to make here exactly besides showing just how unflinchingly and unusually cruelly Kareem punished Dippy on a basketball court? :yaohappy:

[LAZERUSS]

And one more time for DonDadda's benefit...

Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, two of whom were a 20 ppg scorer, and a 10-13 center, and yet his Sixers not only dropped SEVEN games in the regular season....they were routed 4-1 in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs by a 48-34 team. BTW, Wilt's replacements in that FIRST ROUND playoff loss...combined for 36 ppg and 20 rpg. Can you imagine how well those Sixers would have done, had they received NOTHING for Chamberlain?

How about MJ? He QUIT. The '94 Bulls didn't receive ANYTHING for him. And yet, the '94 Bulls only declined by TWO games (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they would easily have won 60+.) THEN, the '94 Bulls swept the Cavs in the first round. In the ECSF's, they lost a seven game series to a Knicks team that would go to lose a game seven by four points to the champion Rockets. And had Pippen and Grant not missed those 22 games...likely a 60+ win team, with HCA, and possibly a title.

[LAZERUSS]

Averaged 11 PPG, being held to under 10 points in 6 of those games including 0 points in their final meeting.

Kareem averaged 30.6 PPG during that span.

So what point were you trying to make here exactly besides showing just how unflinchingly and unusually cruelly Kareem punished Dippy on a basketball court? :yaohappy:

And outshooting Kareem by a staggering .651 to .434 in those ten straight H2H's, and even outscoring him in one game, 24-21, while outshooting him 10-14 to 10-27.

One can only imagine the carpet-bombing a PRIME Chamberlain would have leveled a PRIME Kareem with.

[LAZERUSS]

Averaged 11 PPG, being held to under 10 points in 6 of those games including 0 points in their final meeting.

Kareem averaged 30.6 PPG during that span.

So what point were you trying to make here exactly besides showing just how unflinchingly and unusually cruelly Kareem punished Dippy on a basketball court? :yaohappy:

And again...by virtually ALL ACCOUNTS, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS and TIME Magazine...

A 34-35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, OUTPLAYED a PEAK 24-25 year old Kareem, in BOTH the '71 and '72 WCF's.

Next...

[TheMan]

And again...by virtually ALL ACCOUNTS, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS and TIME Magazine...

A 34-35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, OUTPLAYED a PEAK 24-25 year old Kareem, in BOTH the '71 and '72 WCF's.

Next...
Hold this L LAZ, you just got your soul took by the Don :yaohappy:

[LAZERUSS]

Hold this L LAZ, you just got your soul took by the Don :yaohappy:

Oh Really???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Hold this L LAZ, you just got your soul took by the Don :yaohappy:

And one more time for "TheMan's" benefit...


Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, two of whom were a 20 ppg scorer, and a 10-13 center, and yet his Sixers not only dropped SEVEN games in the regular season....they were routed 4-1 in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs by a 48-34 team. BTW, Wilt's replacements in that FIRST ROUND playoff loss...combined for 36 ppg and 20 rpg. Can you imagine how well those Sixers would have done, had they received NOTHING for Chamberlain?

How about MJ? He QUIT. The '94 Bulls didn't receive ANYTHING for him. And yet, the '94 Bulls only declined by TWO games (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they would easily have won 60+.) THEN, the '94 Bulls swept the Cavs in the first round. In the ECSF's, they lost a seven game series to a Knicks team that would go to lose a game seven by four points to the champion Rockets. And had Pippen and Grant not missed those 22 games...likely a 60+ win team, with HCA, and possibly a title.

Next...

[scandisk_]

Kareem > Wilt

No lies, BS, and hypothetical shizz can spin that. Bird and co. also dominated MJ and the Bulls but guess who's higher on the GOAT list.

Here's a gift from the G.O.A.T famiglia Laz


L

you're welcome

[Poochymama]

Boiled down


The '68 Lakers without Dippy won 52 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-2 series)

The '69 Lakers with Dippy won 55 games and lost in the finals to the Celtics (4-3). Dippy's teammate Jerry West won finals MVP despite the loss, putting up 38/4/7.

The '69 Sixers without Wilt won 55 games and made it to the second round (AKA the same thing the Bulls accomplished after Jordan led them to a 3-peat).

Dippy then proceed to lead a team that made the finals without him, with a teammate who won finals MVP over him, to a 1/4 record in the finals to close out his career.

I miss anything? :confusedshrug:

Wow, Lazerus just got destroyed.

[LAZERUSS]

Wow, Lazerus just got destroyed.

And one more time for "Poochymama's" benefit...


Wilt was TRADED for THREE players before the start of the 68-69 season, two of whom were a 20 ppg scorer, and a 10-13 center, and yet his Sixers not only dropped SEVEN games in the regular season....they were routed 4-1 in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs by a 48-34 team. BTW, Wilt's replacements in that FIRST ROUND playoff loss...combined for 36 ppg and 20 rpg. Can you imagine how well those Sixers would have done, had they received NOTHING for Chamberlain?

How about MJ? He QUIT. The '94 Bulls didn't receive ANYTHING for him. And yet, the '94 Bulls only declined by TWO games (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they would easily have won 60+.) THEN, the '94 Bulls swept the Cavs in the first round. In the ECSF's, they lost a seven game series to a Knicks team that would go to lose a game seven by four points to the champion Rockets. And had Pippen and Grant not missed those 22 games...likely a 60+ win team, with HCA, and possibly a title.

Next...

[Smoke117]

It really is honestly pathetic how people don't realize how good Scottie Pippen was. You morons realize when Jordan retired he was the best perimeter player in the league right? IN 94 and 95 name a better pg, sg, or sf...no? Exactly. Do you magically think he got less better in 96? lol. There is a reason why they won 72 games...they had the best two perimeter players in the league, Dennis Rodman, and a good supporting cast. Halfway through the season before he started accumulating injuries (ankle, knee, and wrist by the time the time the playoffs rolled around) he was top 10 in points, assist, steals in the league averaging 21.5ppg. That retard AJ(numbers) was trying to tell me he wasn't a top 10 player in 96...what would that youngster even know?

[TheMan]

LAZERUSS has the perfect nic for ISH, he keeps getting destroyed but keeps coming back from the dead only to get bodied all over again :lol

[sportjames23]

LAZERUSS has the perfect nic for ISH, he keeps getting destroyed but keeps coming back from the dead only to get bodied all over again :lol


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Asukal]

LAZERUSS has the perfect nic for ISH, he keeps getting destroyed but keeps coming back from the dead only to get bodied all over again :lol

Gotta admire his resolve to defend his dead lover. :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

It really is honestly pathetic how people don't realize how good Scottie Pippen was. You morons realize when Jordan retired he was the best perimeter player in the league right? IN 94 and 95 name a better pg, sg, or sf...no? Exactly. Do you magically think he got less better in 96? lol. There is a reason why they won 72 games...they had the best two perimeter players in the league, Dennis Rodman, and a good supporting cast. Halfway through the season before he started accumulating injuries (ankle, knee, and wrist by the time the time the playoffs rolled around) he was top 10 in points, assist, steals in the league averaging 21.5ppg. That retard AJ(numbers) was trying to tell me he wasn't a top 10 player in 96...what would that youngster even know?
They realize, it's just corny agenda shit. Mj doesn't need protection he's done well enough for himself but zealots donate their lives to his feet.:roll: