LeBron should be held accountable for Miami's two whiffs, but not Cleveland's two.

[Westbrook0]

Leading a roster whose 2nd and 3rd best players were Mo Williams and Big Z against the Spurs dynasty? What was he supposed to do - score 120 a game?

Leading a roster whose 2nd and 3rd best players were Tristan Thompson and Matthew Dellavadova in a competitive series against one of the winningest teams of all time? What was he supposed to do?

Now, I totally understand people saying he should have won in his first and fourth years in Miami. If you're the best player in the league, and you've got two other top 15-20 players on you're roster (Top 10 in his first year), then you've got no excuses.

But I've just never understood how anyone can say LEBRON is a loser for not having an ounce of help on his two Cleveland rosters that made the Finals against far superior teams.

[outbreak]

He lost. He's a loser by definition. Should he be crucified for it? No he was on a bad roster and if he won with that cast it would have been amazing.

[FireDavidKahn]

Larry Hughes was the second best player on the finals team.:oldlol: :roll:

Oh shit, I just realized that DREW GOODEN was the 3rd leading scorer for them.:roll:

[JT123]

How in the world is Lebron accountable for 2014? :facepalm :hammerhead:
Not his fault that Wade forgot how to dribble and Bosh was too much of a bitch to take advantage of a 40 year old Duncan.
Lebron's ONLY bad series is 2011

[Wade's Rings]

LeBron shot 35% with 6 Turnovers A Game yet Game 3 was decided 3 Points and Game 4 by 1 Point. The series could've been 2-2 heading into Game 5 @ Cleveland.

[Wade's Rings]

How in the world is Lebron accountable for 2014? :facepalm :hammerhead:
Not his fault that Wade forgot how to dribble and Bosh was too much of a bitch to take advantage of a 40 year old Duncan.
Lebron's ONLY bad series is 2011

LeBron let Kawhi shoot 69% in the last 3 Games and Played shit Defense :applause:

[JT123]

LeBron shot 35% with 6 Turnovers A Game yet Game 3 was decided 3 Points and Game 4 by 1 Point. The series could've been 2-2 heading into Game 5 @ Cleveland.
Meanwhile Wade was getting eliminated in the first round with prime Shaq :roll:

[JT123]

LeBron let Kawhi shoot 69% in the last 3 Games and Played shit Defense :applause:
80% of Kawhi's points came in transition or when other players switched onto him. Wade cost Lebron a ring, get over it. :sleeping

[Wade's Rings]

Meanwhile Wade was getting eliminated in the first round with prime Shaq :roll:

True :applause:

[Wade's Rings]

80% of Kawhi's points came in transition or when other players switched onto him. Wade cost Lebron a ring, get over it. :sleeping

Oh Really? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdg7dHYVvMc :sleeping

[JT123]

True :applause:
A defending Champ and Finals MVP getting swept in the first round by Luol Deng? :roll: :lol :oldlol:
Makes me wonder what Wade's career would have been if Shaq and Bron never went to Miami. Tmac 2.0?:banana:

[Wade's Rings]

A defending Champ and Finals MVP getting swept in the first round by Luol Deng? :roll: :lol :oldlol:
Makes me wonder what Wade's career would have been if Shaq and Bron never went to Miami. Tmac 2.0?:banana:

Agreed :applause:

[ShackEelOKneel]

People teased LeBron, but I don't think most blame him for losing in 2007 or 2015. However, he does deserve more criticism for 2011, 2014, and some years that he quit in Cleveland before the Finals (2009, 2010).

[LAL]

Hi world of sports statistics, westbrook0 on **************** has asked to erase lebron's 40% shooting finals avg because he should not be held accountable, thx.

[JT123]

Oh Really? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdg7dHYVvMc :sleeping
Really? Some random vid made by an insecure Jordan stan is the best you can do. I counted maybe 3 times when Kawhi actually drove and scored on Lebron. :lol The rest of the footage shows him hitting contested spot up jumpers or drawing phantom fouls. If anything it exposes Spo's shitty and outdated trapping system :sleeping

[kennethgriffin]

if we dont count lebrons failures in the finals because he "didnt belong there" since its a free pass in the east

then why are we counting the rings he fluked playing in a free trip finals appearence?

[MJistheGOAT]

2007 and 2015 = no blame
2011= total blame
2014= partial blame

[Rocketswin2013]

People teased LeBron, but I don't think most blame him for losing in 2007 or 2015. However, he does deserve more criticism for 2011, 2014, and some years that he quit in Cleveland before the Finals (2009, 2010).
He quit in 2009? That's...one hell of a statement.



On the topic 2011 is realistically the only year he deserves criticism. He had a great playoff run in 2014, Wade and bosh sucked along with the rest of the roster in the a finals. SA was crazy hot, impossible circumstances.


Edit: And he definitely shouldn't have played so bad in 2007. Just terrible.

[Duderonomy]

Bron should get some blame for being swept in 2007, but not for losing the series.

Last season was injuries. Can you imagine if he won. If ESPN would still be jock riding him saying he won single handedly.

[Westbrook0]

if we dont count lebrons failures in the finals because he "didnt belong there" since its a free pass in the east

then why are we counting the rings he fluked playing in a free trip finals appearence?


https://i.imgflip.com/i4i0e.jpg

[kennethgriffin]

2007 and 2015 = no blame
2011= total blame
2014= partial blame

Lebron james 2007 finals = 35.6% fg's


Lebron james 2015 finals = 39.8% fg's ( 27% outside of 5 feet )



NO BLAME


http://media.giphy.com/media/14JjD4YDjRlBe/giphy.gif


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AqWJ-z_kEgE/UaIL0QIUvdI/AAAAAAAAAg4/sxq2cZG1U3s/s1600/marhorsegif.gif


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QvARVXIPchA/UaIJ6kQ08hI/AAAAAAAAAgc/rXPL2td4Epo/s1600/ihavenoideagif.gif

http://i.imgur.com/UdCOI9F.gif


http://31.media.tumblr.com/e91d7d7f38c293e734aab21328dbb772/tumblr_mjtfxrRV5X1qdqwrro1_500.gif

[JT123]

if we dont count lebrons failures in the finals because he "didnt belong there" since its a free pass in the east

then why are we counting the rings he fluked playing in a free trip finals appearence?

Cause he beat the best team in the West with an inferior Eastern Conference roster. Duh :hammerhead:

[MJistheGOAT]

Bron should get some blame for being swept in 2007, but not for losing the series.

Last season was injuries. Can you imagine if he won. If ESPN would still be jock riding him saying he won single handedly.

Nah 2007 finals were too one-sided and he was young and inexperienced. No chance.

[Wade's Rings]

Really? Some random vid made by an insecure Jordan stan is the best you can do. I counted maybe 3 times when Kawhi actually drove and scored on Lebron. :lol The rest of the footage shows him hitting contested spot up jumpers or drawing phantom fouls. If anything it exposes Spo's shitty and outdated trapping system :sleeping

Sometimes he drove and kicked out and those were half ass contests(Best Example @2:34) :oldlol:

Nice to know LeBron sabotaged the 2014 Finals :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

Cause he beat the best team in the West with an inferior Eastern Conference roster. Duh :hammerhead:


i dont think you understand my point


whether or not lebron had a better team or a worse team when he won. he had a free pass. which is used to void his finals losses. which in turn should be used to void his titles


anyone can fluke out one series. if you play in 7-10 nba finals. even if youre on the lesser finals team 100% of the time. youre due to win 1 or 2 series just based on the fact that theres upsets.


its more likely youl upset 1 team and win a title than upset 3-4 teams to win a title


which is why even when lebron lucks out a ring. he never should have had the chance to win it in the first place. which puts a big asterisk on the whole thing



either take your losses with your wins. or take nothing at all

cant have your cake and eat it too..

[JT123]

i dont think you understand my point


whether or not lebron had a better team or a worse team when he won. he had a free pass. which is used to void his finals losses. which in turn should be used to void his titles


anyone can fluke out one series. if you play in 7-10 nba finals. even if youre on the lesser finals team 100% of the time. youre due to win 1 or 2 series just based on the fact that theres upsets.
Bullshit. This ain't the NFL where you can luck your way to a title. The team with more talent ALWAYS wins. You tryna tell me that if the 02 Nets played ten 7 game series against the 02 Lakers that the Nets would win two or three of those series? :roll:
Get out of here with that nonsense :no:

[nzahir]

28 8 and 4 and 2 steals on 57% fg and 52% from 3 while wade was 15, 4, 3 and 2 steals(mostly all rounded up), 44% fg, 33% from 3 and under 70% ft.
Bosh was 14 5 and 1(55% though), but less rebounds than lebron. Wade was AWFUL that series, gave up a lot of threes to green and manu. Chalmers and cole got killed by Tp and Mills. Rio and cole shot like 15% both from the 3.

Dont blame 2014 on lebron, at all. Spurs better team, nobody else stepped up besides lebron on mia. He is pretty accountable for 2011, I can admit it. Others were a bit at fault too, such as bibby and rio going ice cold and the heat having no depth.

[tpols]

i dont think you understand my point


whether or not lebron had a better team or a worse team when he won. he had a free pass. which is used to void his finals losses. which in turn should be used to void his titles


anyone can fluke out one series. if you play in 7-10 nba finals. even if youre on the lesser finals team 100% of the time. youre due to win 1 or 2 series just based on the fact that theres upsets.


its more likely youl upset 1 team and win a title than upset 3-4 teams to win a title


which is why even when lebron lucks out a ring. he never should have had the chance to win it in the first place. which puts a big asterisk on the whole thing



either take your losses with your wins. or take nothing at all

cant have your cake and eat it too..


not only that but the team coming out the west is exhausted, put through the gauntlet, while the heat could just go chill mode in the ECF's like they were nothing.

Heat don't even make the finals out west in 2011, 2013, or 2014 given how wade played in those conference finals..

[imnew09]

And they say CP3 gets free pass the most LOl

[JT123]

He is pretty accountable for 2011, I can admit it. Others were a bit at fault too, such as bibby and rio going ice cold and the heat having no depth.
Which is why I don't consider 2011 to be much of an upset at all. That Mavs team won 57 games! They had great coaching and chemistry. Meanwhile Eric Dampier and Mike Bibby's corpse were getting major minutes for the Heat. :roll: Stacked doe

[Young X]

He gets more criticism for the '07 finals than the '14 finals from me.

I don't care if his teammates were more "talented" in '14. They were trash when it mattered most. Bron individually was solid but his team was completely outmatched.

In '07 he had maybe the worst finals series from an all time great and a couple of the games were still winnable. This is worse to me.

I don't care how the series ends up, you only get criticism from me if you perform below your standards. The 2-6 shit is funny, but Bron losing in the finals the past 2 seasons did nothing for me, I don't think any better/less of him because of it.

[kennethgriffin]

Bullshit. This ain't the NFL where you can luck your way to a title. The team with more talent ALWAYS wins. You tryna tell me that if the 02 Nets played ten 7 game series against the 02 Lakers that the Nets would win two or three of those series? :roll:
Get out of here with that nonsense :no:


are you honestly saying that every team that ever won a playoff series was the better team?


are you honestly using an extremely lobsided matchup as an example as to why upsets are impossible in every series that ever existed?


are you honestly r*tarded as f*ck?

[nzahir]

He gets more criticism for the '07 finals than the '14 finals from me.

I don't care if his teammates were more "talented" in '14. They were trash when it mattered most. Bron individually was solid but his team was completely outmatched.

In '07 he had maybe the worst finals series from an all time great and a couple of the games were still winnable. This is worse to me.

I don't care how the series ends up, you only get criticism from me if you perform below your standards. The 2-6 shit is funny, but Bron losing in the finals the past 2 seasons did nothing for me, I don't think any better/less of him because of it.
First of all, lebron was 22 at the time with the 2nd worst supporting cast of all time, besides the knicks in 1999 without ewing(funny how the spurs got lucky to also play them)
2007: 22 7 and 7 but inefficient as ****, 36%. but gooden was their 2nd best scorer with 13 pts lmfao. hughes was 1-10 in the series...yes u read that right. Big z put up 8 pts on 35%. Not like anyone on cleveland even showed up. Lebron was doubled or they packed the entire paint and put 2-3 guys to also play help d on him.

[Droid101]

are you honestly r*tarded as f*ck?
Do you really need to ask this?

[JT123]

are you honestly saying that every team that ever won a playoff series was the better team?


are you honestly using an extremely lobsided matchup as an example as to why upsets are impossible in every series that ever existed?


are you honestly r*tarded as f*ck?
You don't beat a team 4 times in 7 games by luck you imbecile. If you win a series it's because you were better than the other team. Period.
The Thunder and Spurs literally had EVERYTHING going for them going into the Finals against the Heat. They got to the finals in fewer games, were more rested, and had everyone healthy. Meanwhile Bosh was coming off a quad injury in 12 and Wade was on one knee in 13. In the end the Thunder and Spurs weren't able to capitalize on these advantages cause the Lebron and the Heat were just better.
Glad I could school you on the game of basketball Kenneth. We should do this more often. :cheers:

[TheMarkMadsen]

2007 finals

last two games for Lebron

game 3: 25 with 5 turnovers, 9-23 shooting (best game of the series)

game 4: 24 points with 6 turnovers, 10-30 shooting (only player in NBA finals history take 30+ shots and score less than 25 points)


these two games were decided by 4 combined points..

4 combined points doe..

[kennethgriffin]

You don't beat a team 4 times in 7 games by luck you imbecile. If you win a series it's because you were better than the other team. Period.
The Thunder and Spurs literally had EVERYTHING going for them going into the Finals against the Heat. They got to the finals in fewer games, were more rested, and had everyone healthy. Meanwhile Bosh was coming off a quad injury in 12 and Wade was on one knee in 13. In the end the Thunder and Spurs weren't able to capitalize on these advantages cause the Lebron and the Heat were just better.
Glad I could school you on the game of basketball Kenneth. We should do this more often. :cheers:


no... but a team thats supposed to only win 3 can fluke out a 4th

[Wade's Rings]

not only that but the team coming out the west is exhausted, put through the gauntlet, while the heat could just go chill mode in the ECF's like they were nothing.

Heat don't even make the finals out west in 2011, 2013, or 2014 given how wade played in those conference finals..

In 2011 Wade played average vs the #1 Ranked Defense in the Bulls. He's not doing that Vs the Thunder or Mavs.

[nzahir]

2007 finals

last two games for Lebron

game 3: 25 with 5 turnovers, 9-23 shooting (best game of the series)

game 4: 24 points with 6 turnovers, 10-30 shooting (only player in NBA finals history take 30+ shots and score less than 25 points)


these two games were decided by 4 combined points..

4 combined points doe..
Thats 2 more points than hughes had in the ENTIRE SERIES. NO I AM NOT LYING. DISGUSTING

[MJistheGOAT]

These stat nerds are pathetic. They never use the context and only look the numbers specially ppg and fg%.

2007 Finals = no blame in LOSING the series, of course he could have had a better series and maybe Cavs steal 1 or 2 games, but no chance in hell of winning. Also inexperience and awful cast (in O, in D they were good). Spurs were heavy favourites.

And I don

[FLDFSU]

ISH: The 2014 Miami Heat are the most stacked team of all time!!!!

Heat: Lebron leads our team in all relevant stats against the Spurs including points, assists, rebounds, most minutes played...

ISH: Lebron is to blame for the Heat losing...


So what happened to Lebron's "stacked" teammates?

6 of the next 8 highest scoring players in that series after Lebron were Spurs...surely the most "stacked" team in history could hang on to a late 4th quarter lead when Lebron needs to exit the game?

[SouBeachTalents]

2007: LeBron played terribly, but that team was total trash. You can blame him for getting swept, but there's just no way a team like the '07 Cavs is going to win a championship

2011: 1000% on him, biggest choke by an athlete in sports history, almost singlehandidly cost the Heat the title. If he scores 12 points in Game 4 they win the championship, nuff said

2014: OP blaming LeBron for this series makes me think he didn't actually watch it. I honestly think you can argue LeBron got less help in this Finals than 2015. Wade was absolute trash, Bosh was a complete non factor, and no one on the Heat did anything positive the entire series. The Spurs were just the infinitely better team

2015: LeBron shot like shit, so fine, you can hold him accountable for that, but there's not a whole lot more dude could have done. He has even one legitimate threat, the Cavs probably win that series

[AnaheimLakers24]

Why doesnt he just make his teamates better? Thats his main skill isnt it?

[TheMilkyBarKid]

It's my view that it is unfair to fault him for 2007, 2014 or 2015.

Go to town on him for 2011 though.

[MJistheGOAT]

This is all a result of the historically weak Leastern Conference. Too much disparity.

In the west none of that Lebron

[FLDFSU]

2007: LeBron played terribly, but that team was total trash. You can blame him for getting swept, but there's just no way a team like the '07 Cavs is going to win a championship

2011: 1000% on him, biggest choke by an athlete in sports history, almost singlehandidly cost the Heat the title. If he scores 12 points in Game 4 they win the championship, nuff said

2014: OP blaming LeBron for this series makes me think he didn't actually watch it. I honestly think you can argue LeBron got less help in this Finals than 2015. Wade was absolute trash, Bosh was a complete non factor, and no one on the Heat did anything positive the entire series. The Spurs were just the infinitely better team

2015: LeBron shot like shit, so fine, you can hold him accountable for that, but there's not a whole lot more dude could have done. He has even one legitimate threat, the Cavs probably win that series

In a vacuum 2011 is on him. But like 2007 Cavs, the 2011 Heat had no business even being in the Finals that year. Lebron consistently brought it in rounds 1-3, and in round 3 against the Bulls, Wade played about as terrible as Lebron did in the Finals.

Of course, the revisionist history is to now say that the Heat were overwhelming favorites and everyone knew they were headed to the Finals, which is complete BS. The Heat did not become the favorites to win the 2011 championship until the Finals started, and were not even picked to defeat Boston or the Bulls that year...

But yes, the Dallas series was on Lebron...

[GrapeApe]

Meanwhile Wade was getting eliminated in the first round with prime Shaq :roll:

:wtf:

You just inadvertently said that Wade was better than prime Shaq.

:oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

It's my view that it is unfair to fault him for 2007, 2014 or 2015.

Go to town on him for 2011 though.
Yep. He should be 3 for 6, which given the context of his finals losses is pretty damn good. It's not GOAT but no one would be able to clown him and be remotely taken seriously.

As it is...yea..

[ShawkFactory]

In a vacuum 2011 is on him. But like 2007 Cavs, the 2011 Heat had no business even being in the Finals that year. Lebron consistently brought it in rounds 1-3, and in round 3 against the Bulls, Wade played about as terrible as Lebron did in the Finals.

Of course, the revisionist history is to now say that the Heat were overwhelming favorites and everyone knew they were headed to the Finals, which is complete BS. The Heat did not become the favorites to win the 2011 championship until the Finals started, and were not even picked to defeat Boston or the Bulls that year...

But yes, the Dallas series was on Lebron...
Get the fvck out of here

[JT123]

no... but a team thats supposed to only win 3 can fluke out a 4th
At the end of the day if you can't close out an inferior team you don't deserve to be a Champion. That's why I've never bought into the narrative about how the Spurs "should have" been Champs in 13. If they couldn't hold onto a double digit 4th quarter lead, a 5 point lead with 28 seconds left, or win a game 7 in which Bosh goes scoreless then they didn't deserve a ring. :confusedshrug:

[Bankaii]

Heat don't even make the finals out west in 2011, 2013, or 2014 given how wade played in those conference finals..
My goodness this guy is an idiot.

[JT123]

:wtf:

You just inadvertently said that Wade was better than prime Shaq.

:oldlol:
You got me there. :lol I may have exaggerated a tad, but Wade still shouldn't have gotten swept by Luol Deng

[Wade's Rings]

In a vacuum 2011 is on him. But like 2007 Cavs, the 2011 Heat had no business even being in the Finals that year. Lebron consistently brought it in rounds 1-3, and in round 3 against the Bulls, Wade played about as terrible as Lebron did in the Finals.

Of course, the revisionist history is to now say that the Heat were overwhelming favorites and everyone knew they were headed to the Finals, which is complete BS. The Heat did not become the favorites to win the 2011 championship until the Finals started, and were not even picked to defeat Boston or the Bulls that year...

But yes, the Dallas series was on Lebron...


:oldlol: Wade's Conference Finals was greater than Lebron's Finals easily

Wade's Defense was Far Superior. LeBron was melting down with performances like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eL3Kz3DD1uQ
Here's an article on Wade's Game 2 Defense: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7804/dwyane-wades-unheralded-game-2-defense While this was only Game 2 it gives you an idea of the rest of the series.

Wade played Good in Game 2 Offensively with 24 points. In terms of closing: He had 5 straight points in the 4th Quarter of Game 3 to give the Heat separation, he had 6pts & 3blks in the OT of Game 4, He had 10 Points in the 4th Quarter of Game 5 including a 4 Point Play to cut the Lead from 7 to 3. Wade showed up when it mattered that series.

LeBron closing out: In Game 2 he hijacks the Offense after Wade puts the Heat up 15 and the Heat blow the lead. In Game 4 with a chance to go up 3-1 LeBron had 8 Points.. 2 Points coming off an infamous flop and another 2 with a spoon fed fastbreak layup from Wade. So Lebron created 4 Points for himself that Game with 0 Points in the 4th Quarter. In Game 5 after Wade gives the Heat a 99-95 Lead Lebron hijacks the Offense for 4 Possessions. In those 4 Possessions he misses 2 Jumpers over 38 Year old Jason Kidd & 5'9 Barrea and has 2 Turnovers and the Game Swings in Dallas' Favor.

Don't compare those series at all.

[GrapeApe]

You got me there. :lol I may have exaggerated a tad, but Wade still shouldn't have gotten swept by Luol Deng

Ah, but context is key, and that's the basis of this entire argument. No objective fan can blame a severely hobbled Wade for that loss, and no objective fan can blame a largely outmatched Lebron for three of his finals losses. Trust me, I'm on your side with this one. The 2/6 argument is pure nonsense. It's an argument of convenience for the simple minded.

[sportjames23]

Meanwhile Wade was getting eliminated in the first round with prime Shaq :roll:

:wtf:

Shaq wasn't in his prime in Miami. If he was, the Heat woulda dominated with him and Wade.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Yep. He should be 3 for 6, which given the context of his finals losses is pretty damn good. It's not GOAT but no one would be able to clown him and be remotely taken seriously.

As it is...yea..
I think 2/6 is fairly spot on, given who the better team was in each finals series.

From what I saw spurs were the better team in 2013, this was ultimately overcome by individual talents.

[superteamtheory]

LeBron should be held accountable for...

- Not further developing his game quick enough between 2010 and 2011 (assuming playing with Wade and Bosh would be enough when they didn't have much of a roster around them three)... The Mavs loss was, he himself has said, the wake up call that he needed to work on his game a lot more still (even after recently winning 2 MVPs) to make life easier as he goes for the gold... He then won another 2 MVPs and 2 rings... So damn, I'd say he was held accountable enough already for that one.. :(

- Someday giving us an explanation of the game 4 2011 "Space Jam" game where he mysteriously lost his ability to play basketball for one night... :wtf: I only ask because it was so obviously stranger than a normal bad game -- to the extreme that the conspiracy theorists even believe the game was a point shaving fixed game arrangement between him and David Stern -- while Stephen A. Smith heard there was some offcourt / behind the scenes personal thing going on with him and another person that was distracting him from the game ... I dunno if he has to tell us the whole story, but some sort of clarifying words-open-to-interpretation of what went down there... (Another idea: It was coming off a game where he gets clearly fouled on a clutch-time three point attempt with no call even tho the ref is standing right there.. So was his passive play from there on out a sort of silent protest against the officiating that then backfired?) If he ever writes a bio, we may find out...

- 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 etc. No excuses anymore if everyone is healthy, every year gotta age gracefully and do everything you can to get the ring(s)...

That's it. Other than the odd (not the norm) shooting struggles and a few defensive lapses/inconsistent focuses in the last few years maybe due to mental exhaustion from the rollercoaster of the last decade, the rest is just noise / was the victim of circumstances that will easily be shrugged off if he wins more rings... If he doesn't, the controversies will continue forever... and that's aiite too.. We can debate to the endtimes... :pimp:

But he's done literally nothing unforgivable during any of his Cleveland days, that's all just Media Myth and blamegame and common misunderstanding etc. (Because it's obvious to the common knowledgeable agenda-less fan who it was that failed most: management / roster. It's obvious what has changed most now: management / roster.) ... Okay, in Miami there was drama and heartbreaks and even some basketball sins... but he also gave them 4 unforgettable and unexpected NBA adventures... even Pat Riley would agree, you win some you lose some... So, if Bron was terrible in 2014's run (instead of the one bright spot for Miami) or if he has failed to win rings in 2012 and/or 2013, or if he fails to make the Finals in 2015 or wasn't an MVP for Cleveland in 2009 and 2010... then okay, great player but overhyped... didn't answer hell's bells... But he did. That's the thing that doesn't fit the claims of the angry mob as they look for excuses to torch an icon, because they'll burn anything that's respected if it makes them feel better about their own shit..

I've only ever heard one theory that holds any water: That he dominates the ball too much and needs to expand his game moving or posting without it. ... My own feeling about that tho is :confusedshrug: his style has a flaw, but he's proven that if you give him the pieces he's asking for, he's so talented he'll just win anyway..

[FKAri]

if we dont count lebrons failures in the finals because he "didnt belong there" since its a free pass in the east

then why are we counting the rings he fluked playing in a free trip finals appearence?


cuz he's the GOAT :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

In a vacuum 2011 is on him. But like 2007 Cavs, the 2011 Heat had no business even being in the Finals that year. Lebron consistently brought it in rounds 1-3, and in round 3 against the Bulls, Wade played about as terrible as Lebron did in the Finals.

Of course, the revisionist history is to now say that the Heat were overwhelming favorites and everyone knew they were headed to the Finals, which is complete BS. The Heat did not become the favorites to win the 2011 championship until the Finals started, and were not even picked to defeat Boston or the Bulls that year...

But yes, the Dallas series was on Lebron...

*raises eyebrow quizically*

--

Bron should take blame for 2011, and some 2007, too.. yeah his team was perhaps the worst finals roster ever, but the home games were close, and he could have played better, alot. Varejao hella messed up game 3, though.

I see no reason to pass blame for the last 2 years, makes no sense when you look at the big picture.

[RRR3]

2011 was LeBron's fault. That's it. So saying 2/6 is stupid. He's 2/12 anyways if you want to go down that road.

[RRR3]

LeBron wasn't the player he would become in 2007, was he?

But he gets held to MVP Bron standard anyways lol

[FLDFSU]

*raises eyebrow quizically*

--

Bron should take blame for 2011, and some 2007, too.. yeah his team was perhaps the worst finals roster ever, but the home games were close, and he could have played better, alot. Varejao hella messed up game 3, though.

I see no reason to pass blame for the last 2 years, makes no sense when you look at the big picture.

The 2011 Heat was inferior to both the 2011 Bulls and 2011 Celtics in conference. The 2011 Heat was also inferior to a host of Western conference teams including the 2011 Lakers, the overwhelming favorites to repeat.

2011 Heat had Joel Anthony as its starting center. Joel Anthony.

Not saying the 2011 Heat shouldn't have been in the conversation for a championship...but it would have taken the greatest of a Lebron, Wade, and Bosh to overcome the complete inept of the rest of the roster and the coaching staff.

The 2011 Heat fell two games from overcoming those obstacles. In the Finals, Lebron failed to pull his weight...but I can't be too mad, because we should were fortunate to be in that spot to begin with.

[RRR3]

The 2011 Heat was inferior to both the 2011 Bulls and 2011 Celtics in conference. The 2011 Heat was also inferior to a host of Western conference teams including the 2011 Lakers, the overwhelming favorites to repeat.

2011 Heat had Joel Anthony as its starting center. Joel Anthony.

Not saying the 2011 Heat shouldn't have been in the conversation for a championship...but it would have taken the greatest of a Lebron, Wade, and Bosh to overcome the complete inept of the rest of the roster and the coaching staff.

The 2011 Heat fell two games from overcoming those obstacles. In the Finals, Lebron failed to pull his weight...but I can't be too mad, because we should were fortunate to be in that spot to begin with.
Man, but all he needed to was "pull his weight", as you said. So it's frustrating and it will always be the low point of his career.

[3ball]

Lebron can't be held accountable for 2007 Finals


Lebron only averaged 22 ppg on 36% in the 2007 Finals, where all 4 games were VERY CLOSE.

If Lebron averages just 27 ppg on 49% like MJ did in 1988 against the Bad Boys (one of MJ's worst series), the Cavs win the 2007 NBA championship.

So don't say Lebron shouldn't be held accountable for his horrific stats and play.

And just compare MJ and Lebron's stats as 22-year olds against the NBA champs (both Boston and Spurs had the league's #1 defense):

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 35%





Lebron can't be held accountable for 2015 Finals


Why did he collapse in critical Game 4 with only 20 points and zero in the 4th - he had a chance to go up 3-1, but laid an egg - why shouldn't he be held accountable for this?

And why shouldn't he be held acccountable for his 39.8% shooting against single-coverage?.. If he shoots 50% against the single-coverage, the Cavs win easily.

[FLDFSU]

Man, but all he needed to was "pull his weight", as you said. So it's frustrating and it will always be the low point of his career.

Exactly. If Lebron pulls his weight then the 2011 Heat may not have lost a single game to Mavs in the Finals. Scratch that. The Heat would not have lost a single game to the Mavs. Lebron has to live with "what if" for the rest of his career.

But the 2011 Heat were under no circumstance a failure and as a Heat fan I am very proud of what was accomplished that year.

[superteamtheory]

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 35%


^ propaganda alert! :no: don't listen to this garbage, Westbrook0... Jordan is 23, LBJ is 22 (a little over half a year age difference) in that comparison... Similarly, when LBJ is just 2 months older than MJ, the matchup is this:

Jordan vs 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50%
LBJ's 2009 conference finals vs. Magic (3x DPOY D. Howard): 38/8/8 on .487%

most fair way IMO: when LBJ and Jordan are both the same number years out of highschool (LBJ has spent 4goingon5 in NBA, MJ 3 at NC + 1goingon2 in NBA)...

Jordan vs 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50% and a sweep (Bird does his thing, MJ has no effect there... wasn't covering Bird you say? okay, well every one of the Celts' Big 4 had a good series and the other SG Danny Ainge even averaged 17 ppg on 50% in what was clearly a scoring-oriented series) ... the "#1 defensive team" allowed a mediocre Bulls roster 3 100+ games including a 120+ game ... those Celts were feared more for their offensive abilities than having the relatively best D ... OTOH Jordan did set the playoff scoring record, that's not nothing

LBJ vs 2008 Celtics (who were actually feared for their defence): 26/6/7 (and 2 and 1) while holding Pierce to a sub.500% 11 ppg (wins just about every shootout between them including the dual 40 pt. games in closer) with a close/tough game 7 loss (better fight than MVP Kobe put up with a superior team behind him) in what was a more obvious defensive series... and if you watch the Celtics' champ doc they talk about sending 3 defenders at him in the paint to strongarm mob him Bad Boys ish since Cleveland doesn't have much else worth guarding closely... but whatever everybody knows having Big Z and a washed up Ben Wallace for one year = Woolridge's 25 a game and prime Charles Oakley ... :rolleyes:

[Nuff Said]

LeBron could've very well won this finals if he was a better iso scorer. The games were extremely close and his teammates held it down defensively they just needed his scoring to come through.

[K Xerxes]

Blaming Bron for not shooting well enough to win the finals in effect means you expected him to average 44/13/9 on 50% shooting (he shot on average 13/33 for 36ppg, so bump that up to 16/33 and it would roughly translate to 44ppg). No one in history , except for 2 or 3 guys, have ever come close to matching that sort of production for an entire series, let alone a finals. It's pretty absurd imo.

[RRR3]

LeBron could've very well won this finals if he was a better iso scorer. The games were extremely close and his teammates held it down defensively they just needed his scoring to come through.
He was a better ISO scorer a year ago. He would have won a year ago in the same situation.

[tpols]

^ propaganda alert! :no: don't listen to this garbage, Westbrook0... Jordan is 23, LBJ is 22 (a little over half a year age difference) in that comparison... Similarly, when LBJ is just 2 months older than MJ, the matchup is this:

Jordan vs 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50%
LBJ's 2009 conference finals vs. Magic (3x DPOY D. Howard): 38/8/8 on .487%

most fair way IMO: when LBJ and Jordan are both the same number years out of highschool (LBJ has spent 4goingon5 in NBA, MJ 3 at NC + 1goingon2 in NBA)...

Jordan vs 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 50% and a sweep (Bird does his thing, MJ has no effect there... wasn't covering Bird you say? okay, well every one of the Celts' Big 4 had a good series and the other SG Danny Ainge even averaged 17 ppg on 50% in what was clearly a scoring-oriented series) ... the "#1 defensive team" allowed a mediocre Bulls roster 3 100+ games including a 120+ game ... those Celts were feared more for their offensive abilities than having the relatively best D ... OTOH Jordan did set the playoff scoring record, that's not nothing

LBJ vs 2008 Celtics (who were actually feared for their defence): 26/6/7 (and 2 and 1) while holding Pierce to a sub.500% 11 ppg (wins just about every shootout between them including the dual 40 pt. games in closer) with a close/tough game 7 loss (better fight than MVP Kobe put up with a superior team behind him) in what was a more obvious defensive series... and if you watch the Celtics' champ doc they talk about sending 3 defenders at him in the paint to strongarm mob him Bad Boys ish since Cleveland doesn't have much else worth guarding closely... but whatever everybody knows having Big Z and a washed up Ben Wallace for one year = Woolridge's 25 a game and prime Charles Oakley ... :rolleyes:

why would you compare the 2009 magic to GOAT level 86 Celtics? 07 Spurs are a much better comparison because theyre a similar dynasty level team, with a top 10 GOAT and great supporting help..

[HurricaneKid]

he quit in Cleveland before the Finals (2009, 2010).

2009?


LeBron's 2009 postseason is the current record for WS/48 in a playoffs.


This is the kind of thing that causes so much of the stress around here.

[Wade's Rings]

The 2011 Heat was inferior to both the 2011 Bulls and 2011 Celtics in conference. The 2011 Heat was also inferior to a host of Western conference teams including the 2011 Lakers, the overwhelming favorites to repeat.

2011 Heat had Joel Anthony as its starting center. Joel Anthony.

Not saying the 2011 Heat shouldn't have been in the conversation for a championship...but it would have taken the greatest of a Lebron, Wade, and Bosh to overcome the complete inept of the rest of the roster and the coaching staff.

The 2011 Heat fell two games from overcoming those obstacles. In the Finals, Lebron failed to pull his weight...but I can't be too mad, because we should were fortunate to be in that spot to begin with.

The 2011 Heat had Prime Wade/Lebron/Bosh they were Favorites right after The Decision. Their Talent level was overwhelming.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was a better ISO scorer a year ago. He would have won a year ago in the same situation.

are you really this naive..

its not a coincidence that his fg% dropped 17% from last year to this year in the playoffs

he didn't just miraculously become a worse shooter and lose his skill..

has everything to do with how much attention Bosh & Wade commanded..

[Droid101]

The 2011 Heat had Prime Wade/Lebron/Bosh they were Favorites right after The Decision. Their Talent level was overwhelming.
FLD is a known troll. That team was beyond stacked. They took three of the top 4 PER players the year before and teamed them up. Analysts had them winning more than 70 games. ESPN created "The Heat Index" to track their wins along side the 96 Bulls. They were that good and expected to dominate.

[fpliii]

are you really this naive..

its not a coincidence that his fg% dropped 17% from last year to this year in the playoffs

he didn't just miraculously become a worse shooter and lose his skill..

has everything to do with how much attention Bosh & Wade commanded..
Disagree with the bolded. His jumper went to complete shit, even on completely open shots last year. I don't know how much of it was losing weight and then putting it on, but it was bad. Shot 51.6% on jumpers in the 2014 finals, on 11.2 per game (.643 eFG%). Handles in traffic have also gotten worse each year.

If he doesn't work on his jumper this summer, he's going to drop off more.

[Fire Colangelo]

are you really this naive..

its not a coincidence that his fg% dropped 17% from last year to this year in the playoffs

he didn't just miraculously become a worse shooter and lose his skill..

has everything to do with how much attention Bosh & Wade commanded..

lol are you dumb?

there are literally stats suggesting that he's shooting like 10% worse on wide open jumpers

[TheMarkMadsen]

Disagree with the bolded. His jumper went to complete shit, even on completely open shots last year. I don't know how much of it was losing weight and then putting it on, but it was bad. Shot 51.6% on jumpers in the 2014 finals, on 11.2 per game (.643 eFG%). Handles in traffic have also gotten worse each year.

If he doesn't work on his jumper this summer, he's going to drop off more.

Maybe it was a mental thing then since he went from playing on a team where he was primarily getting good looks due to the defense having to also focus on other players for 5 years to playing on a team in the playoffs where he was the defense only concern at time which made those open looks less easy to come by

Lebron was ever a great mid range shooter, we saw the Spurs just two years ago dare him to shoot from the mid range and the Spurs almost won a finals series with that strategy so i have a hard time believing he was a good shooter one year and then just lost that touch the next..

[TheMarkMadsen]

lol are you dumb?

there are literally stats suggesting that he's shooting like 10% worse on wide open jumpers

what's the volume for those two years..

he took way more shots in the playoffs with the cavs this year than he ever did with the HEAT..

his effeciency just wasn't able to hold up with the increased volume..

I'm sure if Lebron only had to take 17-19 shots per game in the 2015 playoffs like he did throughout his time with the HEAT his efficiency would have looked about the same as when he was on the HEAT..

[fpliii]

Maybe it was a mental thing then since he went from playing on a team where he was primarily getting good looks due to the defense having to also focus on other players for 5 years to playing on a team in the playoffs where he was the defense only concern at time which made those open looks less easy to come by

Lebron was ever a great mid range shooter, we saw the Spurs just two years ago dare him to shoot from the mid range and the Spurs almost won a finals series with that strategy so i have a hard time believing he was a good shooter one year and then just lost that touch the next..
Eh agree to disagree on the first paragraph, I think he just lost it. I don't think he was ever a legit 'great' shooter either. But I think it's important to be able to hit open jumpers if you're an offensive anchor. He wasn't able to do that at all this year. During the season, during the playoffs, during the Finals. Regardless of the opposition, or whether Love/Kyrie were in the lineup. His jumper was just completely broken. He should be in the gym taking 1000 a day every day this summer.

[Fire Colangelo]

what's the volume for those two years..

he took way more shots in the playoffs with the cavs this year than he ever did with the HEAT..

his effeciency just wasn't able to hold up with the increased volume..

I'm sure if Lebron only had to take 17-19 shots per game in the 2015 playoffs like he did throughout his time with the HEAT his efficiency would have looked about the same as when he was on the HEAT..

wide open jumpers

I think you're missing the concept of wide open jumpers.

LeBron was one of the best spot up shooters in 2014, and just completely lost it in 2015. Yes his FG% dipped because he took more shots, but if your FG% on wide open jump shots dipped by like 10% you're most likely losing it.

Maybe he lost too much weight, maybe he's not getting enough lift, idk. But his jumper was completely broken in the sense that.... he'd miss wide open shots that he'd use to make.

[JT123]

are you really this naive..

its not a coincidence that his fg% dropped 17% from last year to this year in the playoffs

he didn't just miraculously become a worse shooter and lose his skill..

has everything to do with how much attention Bosh & Wade commanded..
:roll: Please tell me you aren't really this retarded. Have you ever heard of a shooting slump? Players go through them all the time, even your precious godbe. :hammerhead:
Plus Bron was fighting through at least 5 different injuries during the playoffs, and clearly had no lift.

[ArbitraryWater]

are you really this naive..

its not a coincidence that his fg% dropped 17% from last year to this year in the playoffs

he didn't just miraculously become a worse shooter and lose his skill..

has everything to do with how much attention Bosh & Wade commanded..

but you yourself said he was never a great shooter.. its just his J declining, it was broke in 2007. He had to work hard to be a great shooter during his prime.

[TheMarkMadsen]

but you yourself said he was never a great shooter.. its just his J declining, it was broke in 2007. He had to work hard to be a great shooter during his prime.

he was never a great shooter but he had improved..

he was seemed to be a fine shooter 4 months before the beginning of last season..

I think the added volume did a lot to affect his efficiency..

which would make sense seeing as Bran, Bosh & Wade all saw career highs in efficiency playing with each other and then dipped back to earth without each other

[And1AllDay]

2007, 2015: I don't believe any NBA player in LBJ's place would've won the Finals, no matter who you swap LBJ for.

2011: A list of the top 15 all time, probably even top 20 all time would've won, and that is a big knock on LBJ. He very obviously should've won this Finals series.

2012, 2013: Two very tough teams that LBJ's Heat conquered, kudos.

2014: I'm curious to see how many people feel if you swapped LBJ out for another player they'd win it all. 2014 Heat's supporting cast was atrocious, to say the least. And they were going up against a very good Spurs Dynasty. It's tough to say how many players in Bron's spot would've won it all.

LBJ put up great numbers in that series, 28-8-4- with 2 steals on 57% and his team won ONE game lol