Gilbert Arenas breaks down LeBron James

[Rose'sACL]

https://instagram.com/p/5vjAp4PPwB/


This is basically what he says about lebron:

KINGJAMES: this person comes around once in a blue moon. This is a man who is so physically gifted he could walk into any sport and be a HOF'ER off his natural and God given ability. The last person who was this gifted in sports might have been Bo Jackson.

Let's take away very start and start from scratch. His natural gifts: 6-8, 275 pounds, 44 inch vert, once at top speed can't be stopped. He also has vision like Magic Johnson and is a natural lefty who plays basketball as a righty. Him stepping on an NBA floor with no effort = stats at 25/6/7.

Now his WEAKNESSES that he had to work on to be the G.O.A.T: James is more like a train then a cheetah in movement; his first 2 steps aren't very powerful so this hurt him on iso's and the ability to blow pass players from a standstill position. This hints at why he's at the point; he needs to be moving at all times so when he decides to attack, he's already in full motion.

Notice that he doesn't change direction well because he doesn't bend much. He plays straight up and down, like Jason Kidd did, which limits him from crossovers and spinning.

James isn't a number one option, and yes (I didn't stutter) he lacks selfishness so he will always need a go-to-guy like Wade was or Kyrie now.

He lacks what jordan and kobe were, great 1-on-1 players. He needs a pure scorer beside him so he can carry the TEAM load. He gets bashed a lot by media because he doesn't take over like MJ or Kobe, but Lebron is Magic with Jordan-like athleticism, so he walks into stats without trying and when forced he will give you 41/12/8.

The finals was the first time in his career he was physically pushed to the limit because he had no one to defer to. When players like Magic, Barkley and analysts bash him I cringe. Like, you people have no idea what he could do if he had one season, just one selfish season, like Kobe did in 2005-06, he would average 40+/11/9, and no one could do shit about it.

It's sad the world won't get to see who I'm talking about because his legacy is built on winning. If you doubt what I'm saying: look at every game he was pissed off and was challenged. This man could be the second best, 3rd for sure, player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+, and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST.

[keep-itreal]

so basically he said Lebron is a beta that needs an alpha/first option to win :applause:

[20Four]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif

[NZStreetBaller]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif

Lmao i dont care if its warm up. An nba mvp level player should never air ball wide open shots

[oarabbus]

Lmao i dont care if its warm up. An nba mvp level player should never air ball wide open shots

Lol GTFO. Guess it's worse to airball a warmup than a series deciding playoff game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSe80qSgXVA

[Mr Feeny]

Lmao i dont care if its warm up. An nba mvp level player should never air ball wide open shots

Need we pull out an entire highlight reel of Kobe's airbags in important playoff games?? Have you been living under a rock?

[warriorfan]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif

nervously blowing into his hand after :lol

[SpaceJammeR]

https://instagram.com/p/5vjAp4PPwB/


This is basically what he says about lebron:



It's sad the world won't get to see who I'm talking about because his legacy is built on winning. If you doubt what I'm saying: look at every game he was pissed off and was challenged. This man could be the second best, 3rd for sure, player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+, and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
2nd or 3rd for sure. i agree. this guy knows what he's talking about

[NZStreetBaller]

Lol GTFO. Guess it's worse to airball a warmup than a series deciding playoff game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSe80qSgXVA

Its worse to miss open unguarded shots with no pressure....

Tones of pressure and being guarded in game time id understand...

[Asukal]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif

Thread derailed. Congrats! :oldlol: :applause:

[Sakkreth]

Lol GTFO. Guess it's worse to airball a warmup than a series deciding playoff game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSe80qSgXVA

:biggums: :roll:

[imdaman99]

Lol GTFO. Guess it's worse to airball a warmup than a series deciding playoff game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSe80qSgXVA
A rookie that was not yet a star vs supposedly the best player in the game.

[superteamtheory]

Agent Zero still on the money..

I think that's basically right -- 3rd best ever (behind Kobe, MJ #1) seems to be what we're headed for, tho there's the possibility he could do better -- and it is cringeworthy when the media bash him.. Tho Magic and Barkley (who lists him in the top 10 ever) mostly give praise so I'm not sure what clips he was viewing but I could see them having criticisms, sure...

I think what he's getting at with his personal scouting report, or maybe we'd disagree on this, is that his game is a bit more like Larry Bird's (whose game was in turn compared to Magic and vice versa) with the one key difference being that Bron is more of an athletic slasher whereas Bird is a crafty perimeter shooter -- I've seen the role reversed where Bron suddenly has a great perimeter game because he's feeling it but I'm not sure Bird could ever become the rim-bound locomotive Bron can be (but Bird has the far better postgame to compensate, is a slightly better passer tho Bron can handle the rock more)... Bird plays better also as a guy wired into a team-oriented effort in which things run through him and he is often the lead scorer but he isn't necessarily there to score first, just do whatever basketball IQ play seems right. I see Bron's days with a post-2011 Wade as somewhat like Bird & Kevin money McHale ... ditto Bron & Kyrie ... (In this equation Chris Bosh or Kevin Love play the Robert Parish role.)

I'm sure Bron could average 40 a night if properly motivated/focused to do just that, or average a triple double if that's all he wanted to do, but on the other hand I don't think he'll ever be properly motivated/focused because that sort of game isn't that exciting to him in terms of what he likes doing out there... He gets the most into it when he feels he's making a lot of great decisions play after play and the team as a whole is thriving, everybody getting in on the action/party... Is it coincidence that in their year as The Kingsmen, Kyrie, Delly, Mozgov, Tristan Thompson and pre-Finals J.R. Smith all had career years? (Not to mention Shumpert and James Jones got theirs extended.. Mo Wil who just came back also had a career year in Cleveland..) He makes the team better even if it sometimes means a few guys might have to sacrifice a few points like him...

[Lebron23]

Agent Zero still on the money..

I think that's basically right -- 3rd best ever (behind Kobe, MJ #1) seems to be what we're headed for, tho there's the possibility he could do better -- and it is cringeworthy when the media bash him.. Tho Magic and Barkley (who lists him in the top 10 ever) mostly give praise so I'm not sure what clips he was viewing but I could see them having criticisms, sure...

I think what he's getting at with his personal scouting report, or maybe we'd disagree on this, is that his game is a bit more like Larry Bird's (whose game was in turn compared to Magic and vice versa) with the one key difference being that Bron is more of an athletic slasher whereas Bird is a crafty perimeter shooter -- I've seen the role reversed where Bron suddenly has a great perimeter game because he's feeling it but I'm not sure Bird could ever become the rim-bound locomotive Bron can be (but Bird has the far better postgame to compensate, is a slightly better passer tho Bron can handle the rock more)... Bird plays better also as a guy wired into a team-oriented effort in which things run through him and he is often the lead scorer but he isn't necessarily there to score first, just do whatever basketball IQ play seems right. I see Bron's days with a post-2011 Wade as somewhat like Bird & Kevin money McHale ... ditto Bron & Kyrie ... (In this equation Chris Bosh or Kevin Love play the Robert Parish role.)

I'm sure Bron could average 40 a night if properly motivated/focused to do just that, or average a triple double if that's all he wanted to do, but on the other hand I don't think he'll ever be properly motivated/focused because that sort of game isn't that exciting to him in terms of what he likes doing out there... He gets the most into it when he feels he's making a lot of great decisions play after play and the team as a whole is thriving, everybody getting in on the action/party... Is it coincidence that in their year as The Kingsmen, Kyrie, Delly, Mozgov, Tristan Thompson and pre-Finals J.R. Smith all had career years? (Not to mention Shumpert and James Jones got theirs extended.. Mo Wil who just came back also had a career year in Cleveland..) He makes the team better even if it sometimes means a few guys might have to sacrifice a few points like him...

I always like reading your posts. You are easily an ISH Rookie of the Year Candidate.

[pauk]

:applause:

[Foster5k]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif
Bron: "Damn. Still can't shoot. Let me pretend like my hand was cold."

[triangleoffense]

Agent Zero still on the money..

I think that's basically right -- 3rd best ever (behind Kobe, MJ #1) seems to be what we're headed for, tho there's the possibility he could do better -- and it is cringeworthy when the media bash him.. Tho Magic and Barkley (who lists him in the top 10 ever) mostly give praise so I'm not sure what clips he was viewing but I could see them having criticisms, sure...

I think what he's getting at with his personal scouting report, or maybe we'd disagree on this, is that his game is a bit more like Larry Bird's (whose game was in turn compared to Magic and vice versa) with the one key difference being that Bron is more of an athletic slasher whereas Bird is a crafty perimeter shooter -- I've seen the role reversed where Bron suddenly has a great perimeter game because he's feeling it but I'm not sure Bird could ever become the rim-bound locomotive Bron can be (but Bird has the far better postgame to compensate, is a slightly better passer tho Bron can handle the rock more)... Bird plays better also as a guy wired into a team-oriented effort in which things run through him and he is often the lead scorer but he isn't necessarily there to score first, just do whatever basketball IQ play seems right. I see Bron's days with a post-2011 Wade as somewhat like Bird & Kevin money McHale ... ditto Bron & Kyrie ... (In this equation Chris Bosh or Kevin Love play the Robert Parish role.)

I'm sure Bron could average 40 a night if properly motivated/focused to do just that, or average a triple double if that's all he wanted to do, but on the other hand I don't think he'll ever be properly motivated/focused because that sort of game isn't that exciting to him in terms of what he likes doing out there... He gets the most into it when he feels he's making a lot of great decisions play after play and the team as a whole is thriving, everybody getting in on the action/party... Is it coincidence that in their year as The Kingsmen, Kyrie, Delly, Mozgov, Tristan Thompson and pre-Finals J.R. Smith all had career years? (Not to mention Shumpert and James Jones got theirs extended.. Mo Wil who just came back also had a career year in Cleveland..) He makes the team better even if it sometimes means a few guys might have to sacrifice a few points like him...

This is attributable to mostly coaching.

[superteamtheory]

I always like reading your posts. You are easily an ISH Rookie of the Year Candidate.

Thank you.

The next generation of fans is on their way...

[pauk]

so basically he said Lebron is a beta that needs an alpha/first option to win :applause:

No, he said he needs a pure scorer (a guy with score/shoot-first mindset) to complement his natural instincts/game offensively because he is more like Magic rather than Jordan.... this is also only to help the offensive load/responsibility, which in Lebrons case is a load which nobody in NBA had since perhaps Oscar in 60s, guys who are their teams best everything and everything is needed from them (on both ends) in order for them to win due to the lack of supporting cast complementary talent around and their versatile vast talent/skill.... and he can do that and has been doing that for a very long time...

Lebron didnt have such utility most of his career (unlike any of those top 10 guys names on the list), the only times he did have that and all of them were healthy enough all the way to the Finals was in 2011-2013 and there he ofcourse prevailed, obviously......

I think this Cavs team is/was enough aswell with Kyrie/Love... but, again, they were gone at the worst time... and if they are healthy just like i said in my guarantee thread, they WILL win a Championship if all are healthy, Lebron has it all there imo...

Gilbert is on the money and he is absolutely correct about his selfishness/unselfishness aswell, because if he was that like Kobe was especially in 2005-06 meaning screwing his point-guard/unselfish thing and just chucking away (as evident of late in these latest playoffs) Lebron would average close to ~40 ppg.

[Velocirap31]

Good post OP. A good take on Lebron by Arenas, an amazing player himself ruined by injuries.

Thread ruined from kobetards of course, like usual. Moving on.

[HylianNightmare]

Actually a great breakdown

[Bankaii]

For the most part he's right on the money. I will never understand the argument that Kobe>Lebron as a scorer tho.
Scoring more points on better efficient = worse scorer?:confusedshrug:
"He only take layups tho, he's supposed to take dumber, more difficult contested shots to be great".

[Nash]

For the most part he's right on the money. I will never understand the argument that Kobe>Lebron as a scorer tho.
Scoring more points on better efficient = worse scorer?:confusedshrug:
"He only take layups tho, he's supposed to take dumber, more difficult contested shots to be great".
its so fu.cking stupid isn't it? people try to shit on lebron and boost kobe even though lebron is a better scorer and more efficient.

kobe stans too dumb on ISH. Contradicting themselves.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Does he mention why hes 2/6?

[SwayDizzle]

guys, let's be real for a second here…

every Kobe stan knows this about LBJ. that is why we don't like him. we see someone who is more than capable of being an unstoppable machine (more than he already is). we want LBJ to be more selfish. if he played every game like Celtics game 6, then we would all be fans. it's the hardcore (me first) mentality that is lacking. LBJ will not crack the top 5 if this doesn't change. MJ and Kobe had rage to motivate them. LBJ needs to dig deep and channel that rage onto the court.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agent Zero still on the money..

I think that's basically right -- 3rd best ever (behind Kobe, MJ #1) seems to be what we're headed for, tho there's the possibility he could do better -- and it is cringeworthy when the media bash him.. Tho Magic and Barkley (who lists him in the top 10 ever) mostly give praise so I'm not sure what clips he was viewing but I could see them having criticisms, sure...

I think what he's getting at with his personal scouting report, or maybe we'd disagree on this, is that his game is a bit more like Larry Bird's (whose game was in turn compared to Magic and vice versa) with the one key difference being that Bron is more of an athletic slasher whereas Bird is a crafty perimeter shooter -- I've seen the role reversed where Bron suddenly has a great perimeter game because he's feeling it but I'm not sure Bird could ever become the rim-bound locomotive Bron can be (but Bird has the far better postgame to compensate, is a slightly better passer tho Bron can handle the rock more)... Bird plays better also as a guy wired into a team-oriented effort in which things run through him and he is often the lead scorer but he isn't necessarily there to score first, just do whatever basketball IQ play seems right. I see Bron's days with a post-2011 Wade as somewhat like Bird & Kevin money McHale ... ditto Bron & Kyrie ... (In this equation Chris Bosh or Kevin Love play the Robert Parish role.)

I'm sure Bron could average 40 a night if properly motivated/focused to do just that, or average a triple double if that's all he wanted to do, but on the other hand I don't think he'll ever be properly motivated/focused because that sort of game isn't that exciting to him in terms of what he likes doing out there... He gets the most into it when he feels he's making a lot of great decisions play after play and the team as a whole is thriving, everybody getting in on the action/party... Is it coincidence that in their year as The Kingsmen, Kyrie, Delly, Mozgov, Tristan Thompson and pre-Finals J.R. Smith all had career years? (Not to mention Shumpert and James Jones got theirs extended.. Mo Wil who just came back also had a career year in Cleveland..) He makes the team better even if it sometimes means a few guys might have to sacrifice a few points like him...

MJ, Kobe and LeBron are your 3 GOATs?
































































http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/Silly2BPortrait2B1_zpsl2wydeec.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/Silly2BPortrait2B1_zpsl2wydeec.gif.html)

[Da_Realist]

https://instagram.com/p/5vjAp4PPwB/


This is basically what he says about lebron:

KINGJAMES: this person comes around once in a blue moon. This is a man who is so physically gifted he could walk into any sport and be a HOF'ER off his natural and God given ability. The last person who was this gifted in sports might have been Bo Jackson.

Let's take away very start and start from scratch. His natural gifts: 6-8, 275 pounds, 44 inch vert, once at top speed can't be stopped. He also has vision like Magic Johnson and is a natural lefty who plays basketball as a righty. Him stepping on an NBA floor with no effort = stats at 25/6/7.

Now his WEAKNESSES that he had to work on to be the G.O.A.T: James is more like a train then a cheetah in movement; his first 2 steps aren't very powerful so this hurt him on iso's and the ability to blow pass players from a standstill position. This hints at why he's at the point; he needs to be moving at all times so when he decides to attack, he's already in full motion.

Notice that he doesn't change direction well because he doesn't bend much. He plays straight up and down, like Jason Kidd did, which limits him from crossovers and spinning.

James isn't a number one option, and yes (I didn't stutter) he lacks selfishness so he will always need a go-to-guy like Wade was or Kyrie now.

He lacks what jordan and kobe were, great 1-on-1 players. He needs a pure scorer beside him so he can carry the TEAM load. He gets bashed a lot by media because he doesn't take over like MJ or Kobe, but Lebron is Magic with Jordan-like athleticism, so he walks into stats without trying and when forced he will give you 41/12/8.

The finals was the first time in his career he was physically pushed to the limit because he had no one to defer to. When players like Magic, Barkley and analysts bash him I cringe. Like, you people have no idea what he could do if he had one season, just one selfish season, like Kobe did in 2005-06, he would average 40+/11/9, and no one could do shit about it.

It's sad the world won't get to see who I'm talking about because his legacy is built on winning. If you doubt what I'm saying: look at every game he was pissed off and was challenged. This man could be the second best, 3rd for sure, player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+, and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST.

He's bad on iso's and can't blow by opponents easily. He's not very good at crossovers and spinning because he doesn't bend much. Needs to always play the point (dominate the ball) so he can attack with a running start because he's ineffective from a standing positon (three-point stance) and has no off-ball because of it. He lacks the needed selfishness (true confidence in his shot due to the aforementioned weaknesses) in the clutch so he always needs another guy to shoulder that load (pressure).

But he's the 2nd or 3rd best player ever because of stats? Agent Zero is just as blind as Lebron's fans.

[tpols]

guys, let's be real for a second here…

every Kobe stan knows this about LBJ. that is why we don't like him. we see someone who is more than capable of being an unstoppable machine (more than he already is). we want LBJ to be more selfish. if he played every game like Celtics game 6, then we would all be fans. it's the hardcore (me first) mentality that is lacking. LBJ will not crack the top 5 if this doesn't change. MJ and Kobe had rage to motivate them. LBJ needs to dig deep and channel that rage onto the court.

I don't think hes really all that capable of it (pressing the issue with scoring that is) though. its not just mental, only partial

gilbert made a great point that Lebrons first two steps are not that powerful.. so he cant quick strike like truly great iso scorers. Bron trying to play a high volume shooting game will crater any offense.

[dunksby]

Arenas used to be a beast, dude completely messed up, rich coming from him all this talk though.

[sdot_thadon]

Zero wasn't too shabby himself before the injuries. The bits in this thread about him being unslfish, well everyone doesn't play the game with the same mindset fellas. That's the beauty of it, I don't want to see another Mj I saw the real one.

His 1st not being powerful should be a given assuming his size, I mean how unfair would it be if on top of all his gifts also had an A.i. type 1st step? The one he had early in his career was unfair enough, remember young lebron was blowing by guys off the dribble without using much fancy stuff.


He's bad on iso's and can't blow by opponents easily. He's not very good at crossovers and spinning because he doesn't bend much. Needs to always play the point (dominate the ball) so he can attack with a running start because he's ineffective off-ball. And he lacks selfishness (true confidence in his own shot during clutch moments due to the aforementioned weaknesses) so he always needs another guy to shoulder that load (pressure).

But he's the 2nd or 3rd best player ever because of stats? Agent Zero is just as blind as Lebron's fans.
You should have read then took it in instead of reacting off emotion.


This man could be the second best, 3rd for sure, player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+, and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST.
Calm down.

[RRR3]

He's bad on iso's and can't blow by opponents easily. He's not very good at crossovers and spinning because he doesn't bend much. Needs to always play the point (dominate the ball) so he can attack with a running start because he's ineffective from a standing positon (three-point stance) and has no off-ball because of it. He lacks the needed selfishness (true confidence in his shot due to the aforementioned weaknesses) in the clutch so he always needs another guy to shoulder that load (pressure).

But he's the 2nd or 3rd best player ever because of stats? Agent Zero is just as blind as Lebron's fans.
First of all, you colossal idiot, tell me how someone who is "bad at ISOs" has accomplished the following:

27.3 PPG career (4th all time)
28.2 PPG in playoffs (5th all time)
2 30+ PPG seasons
2008 Scoring Champion
10 Games of 50+ Points
Led the Playoffs in PPG 2 times
Averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs 4 times

Inb4 "derr he just scores in transition doe durr hurr" :banghead:

:facepalm


Not a good 3PT shooter, eh? He was until the 2015 playoffs :confusedshrug: LeBron has become a good 3PT shooter to anyone with eyes. Or eyes not blinded by MJ's dick





LeBron isn't a good iso scorer :roll: :roll: :roll:


Holy shit you guys act like he doesn't score more than all but 3 players who ever lived :facepalm

Cut the bs. LeBron is a great slasher, very good at posting up, and is excellent at creating his own shot (whether this is effective depends on how his jumper is going). When his jumper is more consistent, like in his stronger seasons, he is deadly. I don't care if he isn't "skilled" he scores effectively, so who gives a **** it looks "pretty" or not.

[FKAri]

Great breakdown.


First of all, you colossal idiot, tell me how someone who is "bad at ISOs" has accomplished the following:

27.3 PPG career (4th all time)
28.2 PPG in playoffs (5th all time)
2 30+ PPG seasons
2008 Scoring Champion
10 Games of 50+ Points
Led the Playoffs in PPG 2 times
Averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs 4 times

Inb4 "derr he just scores in transition doe durr hurr" :banghead:

:facepalm


Not a good 3PT shooter, eh? He was until the 2015 playoffs :confusedshrug: LeBron has become a good 3PT shooter to anyone with eyes. Or eyes not blinded by MJ's dick





LeBron isn't a good iso scorer :roll: :roll: :roll:


Holy shit you guys act like he doesn't score more than all but 3 players who ever lived :facepalm

Cut the bs. LeBron is a great slasher, very good at posting up, and is excellent at creating his own shot (whether this is effective depends on how his jumper is going). When his jumper is more consistent, like in his stronger seasons, he is deadly. I don't care if he isn't "skilled" he scores effectively, so who gives a **** it looks "pretty" or not.

He's very good as an iso scorer but compared to MJ, Kobe and other all-time great scorers he's not. That's one of his biggest weaknesses.

[RRR3]

Great breakdown.



He's very good but compared to MJ, Kobe and other all-time great scorers he's not. That's one of his biggest weaknesses.
His ISO scoring skill set was top notch in 2014. IDK what happened this year. And of course MJ is a better scorer. There have been very few better scorers than LBJ in NBA history, people just can't accept it apparently.

[Legends66NBA7]

They'll always be generational talents. It seems there are a few that pop up ever decade or less. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a new top 10 a century from now.

[PP34Deuce]

Gilbert did a great analysis.

I believe that Lebron has always been great end to end but in half court offense at the 3 point line, he can't consistently take you off the dribble. Even in his freaky freak prime he couldn't do that. He's a locomotive-Once he gets going, no one in the league can stay in front of him.

I also believe he's not saying Lebron isn't a first option, he's saying Lebrons gift is the ability to affect scoring, rebounding, defense, passing and running the offense. He can score 25PPG in his sleep. Lebron is great if he's the 1B option with a pure scorer. I see why he believes in Kyrie so much. Kyrie is the guy that will enable him to focus less on scoring.

Lebron would rather have 25 8 and 9 games than do 35 5 and 5.

[tpols]

Cut the bs. LeBron is a great slasher, very good at posting up, and is excellent at creating his own shot (whether this is effective depends on how his jumper is going). When his jumper is more consistent, like in his stronger seasons, he is deadly. I don't care if he isn't "skilled" he scores effectively, so who gives a **** it looks "pretty" or not.

Lebron's posting and jumper are wildly inconsistent.. in 2012 his post offense and sealing off was amazing.. in 2013 he had all time bad post scoring especially in the Finals. In 2012 his jumper was on especially in the ECF, dominating with midrange, in 2015 it was broke and in many of his younger years as well.

His post/iso scoring skill is all about whether he happens to be in rythym at that time, so its pretty much a coin flip. MJ and Kobe never had this type of deficiency where they wildly swing in skill department.. which is why theyre far less likely to get their scoring ability exploited at highest levels of competition. Youre catching mad feelings on this..

[PP34Deuce]

They'll always be generational talents. It seems there are a few that pop up ever decade or less. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a new top 10 a century from now.

It'll be a very long time before we see another guy like Lebron James. We have seen athletes like him similar and I believe we will see some absolute freaks that are 6'8 250.

He does however have a prodigy like aptitude for basketball. That's what makes him one of a kind. freakish athleticism and also IQ.

[ralph_i_el]

Agent Zero still on the money..

I think that's basically right -- 3rd best ever (behind Kobe, MJ #1) seems to be what we're headed for, tho there's the possibility he could do better -- and it is cringeworthy when the media bash him.. Tho Magic and Barkley (who lists him in the top 10 ever) mostly give praise so I'm not sure what clips he was viewing but I could see them having criticisms, sure...

I think what he's getting at with his personal scouting report, or maybe we'd disagree on this, is that his game is a bit more like Larry Bird's (whose game was in turn compared to Magic and vice versa) with the one key difference being that Bron is more of an athletic slasher whereas Bird is a crafty perimeter shooter -- I've seen the role reversed where Bron suddenly has a great perimeter game because he's feeling it but I'm not sure Bird could ever become the rim-bound locomotive Bron can be (but Bird has the far better postgame to compensate, is a slightly better passer tho Bron can handle the rock more)... Bird plays better also as a guy wired into a team-oriented effort in which things run through him and he is often the lead scorer but he isn't necessarily there to score first, just do whatever basketball IQ play seems right. I see Bron's days with a post-2011 Wade as somewhat like Bird & Kevin money McHale ... ditto Bron & Kyrie ... (In this equation Chris Bosh or Kevin Love play the Robert Parish role.)

I'm sure Bron could average 40 a night if properly motivated/focused to do just that, or average a triple double if that's all he wanted to do, but on the other hand I don't think he'll ever be properly motivated/focused because that sort of game isn't that exciting to him in terms of what he likes doing out there... He gets the most into it when he feels he's making a lot of great decisions play after play and the team as a whole is thriving, everybody getting in on the action/party... Is it coincidence that in their year as The Kingsmen, Kyrie, Delly, Mozgov, Tristan Thompson and pre-Finals J.R. Smith all had career years? (Not to mention Shumpert and James Jones got theirs extended.. Mo Wil who just came back also had a career year in Cleveland..) He makes the team better even if it sometimes means a few guys might have to sacrifice a few points like him...

Why waste all this time writing a big old post when you started out proving nothing you say matters (Kobe #2 all time :facepalm )?

[Da_Realist]

Lebron has good vision but not on the level of Magic. Take away the box score and just watch them play one after the other, the difference would be obvious. Lebron's passing game is like late 80's/early 90's Magic Johnson -- but slower. Magic was far more instinctual.

Magic was the offense, Lebron is the focus of the offense. In other words, Magic helped James Worthy be a better James Worthy, made Kareem more effective even as he got older and slower, gave Bryon wide open shots and layups, made AC Green and Kurt Rambis offensive threats, etc. Magic didn't change their games, but enhanced them. His assists came out of running the team in the most optimal way without changing his teammates games at all. James Worthy was still James f*cking Worthy and you better play him or he will drop 36, 16 and 10 on you shooting 68% and win Finals MVP. He wasn't reduced to anything, he was enhanced by playing with Magic. Same with Kareem (Magic avg'd 14 assists feeding Cap the 1985 Finals MVP). The Lakers were a machine because of it.

Lebron forces the defense to focus on him by commanding a double and then passing to an open teammate. That's oversimplifying it but not by much.

Just because they both can average 12 assists doesn't mean they are "like" each other or have the same vision.

Then there is the difference in speed. Magic for most of his career played at 65 mph while Lebron is at his best at 30. All that top end speed Lebron has means nothing outside of isolated possessions because he doesn't play his best ball at that speed.

They were two totally different players that just happen to be around 6'8 or 6'9 and can pass the ball.

[RRR3]

Lebron's posting and jumper are wildly inconsistent.. in 2012 his post offense and sealing off was amazing.. in 2013 he had all time bad post scoring especially in the Finals. In 2012 his jumper was on especially in the ECF, dominating with midrange, in 2015 it was broke and in many of his younger years as well.

His post/iso scoring skill is all about whether he happens to be in rythym at that time, so its pretty much a coin flip. MJ and Kobe never had this type of deficiency where they wildly swing in skill department.. which is why theyre far less likely to get their scoring ability exploited at highest levels of competition. Youre catching mad feelings on this..
People act like LeBron is ****in' Wilson Chandler. He's one of the best scorers ever and people refusing to admit it is just them lying to themselves.

[RRR3]

2015 LeBron is the worst I've ever seen him at isolation scoring. By far. I just get irritated when people act like the 2015 playoffs are indicative of his past scoring ability.

[Da_Realist]

First of all, you colossal idiot, tell me how someone who is "bad at ISOs" has accomplished the following:

27.3 PPG career (4th all time)
28.2 PPG in playoffs (5th all time)
2 30+ PPG seasons
2008 Scoring Champion
10 Games of 50+ Points
Led the Playoffs in PPG 2 times
Averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs 4 times

Dude calm down. I didn't insult your wife. I summarized what Gilbert Arenas said.


Now his WEAKNESSES that he had to work on to be the G.O.A.T: James is more like a train then a cheetah in movement; his first 2 steps aren't very powerful so this hurt him on iso's and the ability to blow pass players from a standstill position.

Now go on twitter and rant to Gilbert and give up the immature ISH tough guy persona.

[RRR3]

Dude calm down. I didn't insult your wife. I summarized what Gilbert Arenas said.



Now go on twitter and rant to Gilbert and give up the immature ISH tough guy persona.
Holy shit, ISH.


Jesus.


It's not that I think LeBron is above criticism. But there are so many ridiculously exaggerated claims about his game that the image of him becomes distorted on this forum.

[Nuff Said]

First of all, you colossal idiot, tell me how someone who is "bad at ISOs" has accomplished the following:

27.3 PPG career (4th all time)
28.2 PPG in playoffs (5th all time)
2 30+ PPG seasons
2008 Scoring Champion
10 Games of 50+ Points
Led the Playoffs in PPG 2 times
Averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs 4 times

Inb4 "derr he just scores in transition doe durr hurr" :banghead:

:facepalm


Not a good 3PT shooter, eh? He was until the 2015 playoffs :confusedshrug: LeBron has become a good 3PT shooter to anyone with eyes. Or eyes not blinded by MJ's dick





LeBron isn't a good iso scorer :roll: :roll: :roll:


Holy shit you guys act like he doesn't score more than all but 3 players who ever lived :facepalm

Cut the bs. LeBron is a great slasher, very good at posting up, and is excellent at creating his own shot (whether this is effective depends on how his jumper is going). When his jumper is more consistent, like in his stronger seasons, he is deadly. I don't care if he isn't "skilled" he scores effectively, so who gives a **** it looks "pretty" or not.

An actual counter to his post would've been to post his iso scoring stats. Not his overall points. You're more so arguing his ability as an overall scorer.

[RRR3]

Having trouble finding data. His ISO scoring numbers for 2014-15 were solid enough. And he was the worst I've seen him in terms of ISO scoring this past year



http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive

[Prime_Shaq]

First of all, you colossal idiot, tell me how someone who is "bad at ISOs" has accomplished the following:

27.3 PPG career (4th all time)
28.2 PPG in playoffs (5th all time)
2 30+ PPG seasons
2008 Scoring Champion
10 Games of 50+ Points
Led the Playoffs in PPG 2 times
Averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs 4 times

Inb4 "derr he just scores in transition doe durr hurr" :banghead:

:facepalm


Not a good 3PT shooter, eh? He was until the 2015 playoffs :confusedshrug: LeBron has become a good 3PT shooter to anyone with eyes. Or eyes not blinded by MJ's dick





LeBron isn't a good iso scorer :roll: :roll: :roll:


Holy shit you guys act like he doesn't score more than all but 3 players who ever lived :facepalm

Cut the bs. LeBron is a great slasher, very good at posting up, and is excellent at creating his own shot (whether this is effective depends on how his jumper is going). When his jumper is more consistent, like in his stronger seasons, he is deadly. I don't care if he isn't "skilled" he scores effectively, so who gives a **** it looks "pretty" or not.
Of course he's a good scorer but when you compare him to the best (MJ) then he just isn't as good. Its all about who you want to compare LeBron to though.

[RRR3]

Of course he's a good scorer but when you compare him to the best (MJ) then he just isn't as good. Its all about who you want to compare LeBron to though.
What idiot compares LeBron to MJ as a scorer? :biggums:

[Prime_Shaq]

What idiot compares LeBron to MJ as a scorer? :biggums:
Those that want to argue that LeBron is GOAT?

[RRR3]

Those that want to argue that LeBron is GOAT?
Well, he's not the GOAT. And he's definitely not the GOAT scorer, though he is almost certainly top 10.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lebron has good vision but not on the level of Magic. Take away the box score and just watch them play one after the other, the difference would be obvious. Lebron's passing game is like late 80's/early 90's Magic Johnson -- but slower. Magic was far more instinctual.

Magic was the offense, Lebron is the focus of the offense. In other words, Magic helped James Worthy be a better James Worthy, made Kareem more effective even as he got older and slower, gave Bryon wide open shots and layups, made AC Green and Kurt Rambis offensive threats, etc. Magic didn't change their games, but enhanced them. His assists came out of running the team in the most optimal way without changing his teammates games at all. James Worthy was still James f*cking Worthy and you better play him or he will drop 36, 16 and 10 on you shooting 68% and win Finals MVP. He wasn't reduced to anything, he was enhanced by playing with Magic. Same with Kareem (Magic avg'd 14 assists feeding Cap the 1985 Finals MVP). The Lakers were a machine because of it.

Lebron forces the defense to focus on him by commanding a double and then passing to an open teammate. That's oversimplifying it but not by much.

Just because they both can average 12 assists doesn't mean they are "like" each other or have the same vision.

Then there is the difference in speed. Magic for most of his career played at 65 mph while Lebron is at his best at 30. All that top end speed Lebron has means nothing outside of isolated possessions because he doesn't play his best ball at that speed.

They were two totally different players that just happen to be around 6'8 or 6'9 and can pass the ball.

Well said...

I liked and agree with Arenas' breakdown except when he went on about LeBron being something like Magic with better athleticism.

People go off on that comparison way too much for my liking, mostly because James and Johnson are both 6'8 players who happen to be great passers and are at their best when playing (like a) PG...

Sure, LeBron can pass that rock, he can play point and run an offense BUT he can't quite pass like Magic, he can't quite play point nor run an offense like Magic did... And it's definitely not far but also not THAT close, certainly not close enough to warrant those comparisons, imho.

Plus, they don't even play all that much alike...

People need to watch prime Magic more before making those types of comparisons, tbh.

[ekosky]

LeGOAT.

Haters are FURIOUS. :applause:

[Prime_Shaq]

Well said...

I liked and agree with Arenas' breakdown except when he went on about LeBron being something like Magic with better athleticism.

People go off on that comparison way too much for my liking, mostly because James and Johnson are both 6'8 players who happen to be great passers and are at their best when playing (like a) PG...

Sure, LeBron can pass that rock, he can play point and run an offense BUT he can't quite pass like Magic, he can't quite play point nor run an offense like Magic did... And it's definitely not far but also not THAT close, certainly not close enough to warrant those comparisons, imho.

Plus, they don't even play all that much alike...

People need to watch prime Magic more before making those types of comparisons, tbh.
:applause:

[HurricaneKid]

Well said...

I liked and agree with Arenas' breakdown except when he went on about LeBron being something like Magic with better athleticism.

People go off on that comparison way too much for my liking, mostly because James and Johnson are both 6'8 players who happen to be great passers and are at their best when playing (like a) PG...

Sure, LeBron can pass that rock, he can play point and run an offense BUT he can't quite pass like Magic, he can't quite play point nor run an offense like Magic did... And it's definitely not far but also not THAT close, certainly not close enough to warrant those comparisons, imho.

Plus, they don't even play all that much alike...

People need to watch prime Magic more before making those types of comparisons, tbh.

Meh. Magic got to play in the open court a lot more than LeBron does. I think that helped him immensely. I think LeBron is every bit as good a passer as Magic ever was in the half court.

I laugh at all the people mad at LeBron for not being more selfish. He always makes the right basketball play. You don't see absurd highlights of fallaway bank shots because he would never be selfish enough to take shots like that (post ~07-08 or so). That is a GOOD thing. He put making the right play to win in front of his quest for personal glory. I think its admirable. Its one of the reasons he is so clearly ahead of Kobe IMO.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Meh. Magic got to play in the open court a lot more than LeBron does. I think that helped him immensely.

Like in 1991 when 31 years old Magic was still averaging 12.5 APG (while taking the LA to the Finals) in 37 MPG, with the Lakers' average pace then "reduced" to 94.1 :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:
Quality of that squad wasn't even close to being as good as in their best days...
Always love all that 'pace' talk though.



I think LeBron is every bit as good a passer as Magic ever was in the half court.

Then you clearly need to watch Magic (or both) more because you have no idea about what you're talking about, tbh.
Seriously, after reading that I can't even engage into any type of discussion on that subject with you, it is what it is.
That's just... false as it could be, but anyways...

[Mass Debator]

Spot on. And I agree, Lebron James aint no Magic in the passing game. Different style. Different effectiveness. Magic played with way more instincts and could dominate with his passing game. Lebron is the best at passing out of double teams or on defense collapses. Magic could get his bigs involved inside, but Lebron is just average at that. Lebron is a better scorer so he doesn't really need to be all that fancy with his passing.

[ballin33]

Well he is kinda right, but it's not anything we don't know. The dude's built like a PF, of course he isn't going to have guard like agility/flexibility. He more than makes up for it in strength,size,speed, explosiveness, and conditioning.

[HurricaneKid]

Like in 1991 when 31 years old Magic was still averaging 12.5 APG (while taking the LA to the Finals) in 37 MPG, with the Lakers' average pace then "reduced" to 94.1 :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:
Quality of that squad wasn't even close to being as good as in their best days...
Always love all that 'pace' talk though.




Then you clearly need to watch Magic (or both) more because you have no idea about what you're talking about, tbh.
Seriously, after reading that I can't even engage into any type of discussion on that subject with you, it is what it is.
That's just... false as it could be, but anyways...

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree with you. First off, there is simply no arguing that Magic's teams didn't play with more pace than LeBron's.

Magic played for 12 seasons. LeBron has played for 12 seasons (Lets do Magic the favor of not counting 95-96)

Here are the Pace stats for each by season.

Magic:
102.7
103.1
103.8
103.7
103.2
101.6
102.7
99.1
100.1
96.3
94.1
92.5

LeBron:
90.8
89.7
89.8
89.8
92.9
90.2
88.7
91.4
90.9
91.2
90.7
91.2
92.3

If we just avg those it is:
Magic: 100.2
LeBron 90.8

So your position is factually impotent.

If you can't engage in conversation thats on you. I am a grown man and I had posters of Magic on my wall when I was young. I have probably seen 10X as many Magic games as you have. He was a wizard in the open court but when they slowed they became far less explosive.

I also believe it is important to discuss the rudimentary defenses he played against in his day compared to the defenses in the current league. Partly it is just the evolution of the game, but moreso it is the substantive rule changes. But it definitively limits the volume of assists.

The league leader in Asst the last 4 years has had 731.75 asst. From 83-91 it was 1032. Thats a 41% increase in what it took to lead the league in asst.

Its a different game now. And a far better one. But that doesn't stop people from trumpeting how great it was in the good old days.

[Da_Realist]

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree with you. First off, there is simply no arguing that Magic's teams didn't play with more pace than LeBron's.

Magic played for 12 seasons. LeBron has played for 12 seasons (Lets do Magic the favor of not counting 95-96)

Here are the Pace stats for each by season.

Magic:
102.7
103.1
103.8
103.7
103.2
101.6
102.7
99.1
100.1
96.3
94.1
92.5

LeBron:
90.8
89.7
89.8
89.8
92.9
90.2
88.7
91.4
90.9
91.2
90.7
91.2
92.3

If we just avg those it is:
Magic: 100.2
LeBron 90.8.


Right.

Magic -- Coop-a-loop, thread the needle pass to a spot that wasn't open a second beforehand, leader of an offense that ran teams in the ground, behind-the-back/head and no-look passes on a team where everyone got 3-4 easy baskets a game.

Lebron -- drive-n-kick, post-n-kick, pick-n-roll and specialize in creating mismatches and passing to teammates for jumpshots. Takes more time to develop and easier to stop. Because lebron always has the ball, his assists accumulate but that doesn't mean he's the same type of floor general as Magic Johnson.

Generally speaking, Magic set guys up for layups. Lebron sets his guys up for jumpshots.

And Magic was elite in the halfcourt. Watch him in the 88 Finals for the best example of this. Watch Magic whiz passes left and right over an elite Chicago defense in the 91 Finals. And this was a slow, plodding offense with guys like Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac.

[Indian guy]

He's right about the first step, wrong about pretty much everything else. LeBron's change-of-direction was terrific from 04-10, when he was still quite lean and rubbery. And young! His body changed from 2011 onwards, with his upper body getting massive. And it's just comical to say someone with LeBron's scoring volume is not a first 1st option and needs someone to "shoulder the load". What is that remotely based on? He led 2 championship teams averaging around 30 ppg on high efficiency while the 2nd highest scorer on those teams didn't even average 20 ppg. There's this huge myth about LeBron that he'd rather pass first. No. LeBron's entire game is built around his GOAT-like combination of slashing and finishing. That's why, you know, he's always at the top of the league in ppg and fga, because that's what he LIKES to do most and does best. If he was Magic, he'd play like Magic.

And watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SbymEWp0Dw) and tell me young-LeBron's change of direction wasn't terrific. Or that he isn't the GOAT perimeter athlete. Yeah, there were players with better first steps and better 2-footed leaping, but none of 'em weighed anywhere close to 250+ pounds.

[Smoke117]

Lol GTFO. Guess it's worse to airball a warmup than a series deciding playoff game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSe80qSgXVA

http://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

[HurricaneKid]

Right.

Magic -- Coop-a-loop, thread the needle pass to a spot that wasn't open a second beforehand, leader of an offense that ran teams in the ground, behind-the-back/head and no-look passes on a team where everyone got 3-4 easy baskets a game.

Lebron -- drive-n-kick, post-n-kick, pick-n-roll and specialize in creating mismatches and passing to teammates for jumpshots. Takes more time to develop and easier to stop. Because lebron always has the ball, his assists accumulate but that doesn't mean he's the same type of floor general as Magic Johnson.

Generally speaking, Magic set guys up for layups. Lebron sets his guys up for jumpshots.

And Magic was elite in the halfcourt. Watch him in the 88 Finals for the best example of this. Watch Magic whiz passes left and right over an elite Chicago defense in the 91 Finals. And this was a slow, plodding offense with guys like Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac.

That slow plodding offense still played as fast as any team LBJ has ever played on.

I agree that there is something to the assertion that LeBron plays a more methodical and unimaginitive game; especially compared to Magic. A lot of that is LeBron just breaking the game down to smaller and smaller pieces and knowing what to do when he beats just one of those smaller pieces (getting a shoulder passed certain defenders or a foot next to a different defender's foot, etc). Whereas, Magic was far more creative and was an infinitely better showman. But in a half court game I'd take LBJ 10/10 over Magic.

When it comes down to it, the real dislike for LeBron that exists is out there because he doesn't flow as beautifully and artfully as MJ/Magic, etc. Even Kobe is more aesthetically pleasing. But that charge is intellectually lazy. Maravich and AI weren't nearly the players that LeBron is but the showmanship was off the charts. As far as effectiveness of play, LeBron is absolutely up towards the top of the list.

LeBron makes cross court passes against his body to open corner shooters like no one before him. While I would love to see him play a faster, more imaginative style, he is clinical in his execution and makes insane plays in his own fashion.

[Megabox!]

Its worse to miss open unguarded shots with no pressure....

Tones of pressure and being guarded in game time id understand...
It's a warm up shot.......you god damn moron

[Da_Realist]

That slow plodding offense still played as fast as any team LBJ has ever played on.

I agree that there is something to the assertion that LeBron plays a more methodical and unimaginitive game; especially compared to Magic. A lot of that is LeBron just breaking the game down to smaller and smaller pieces and knowing what to do when he beats just one of those smaller pieces (getting a shoulder passed certain defenders or a foot next to a different defender's foot, etc). Whereas, Magic was far more creative and was an infinitely better showman. But in a half court game I'd take LBJ 10/10 over Magic.

When it comes down to it, the real dislike for LeBron that exists is out there because he doesn't flow as beautifully and artfully as MJ/Magic, etc. Even Kobe is more aesthetically pleasing. But that charge is intellectually lazy. Maravich and AI weren't nearly the players that LeBron is but the showmanship was off the charts. As far as effectiveness of play, LeBron is absolutely up towards the top of the list.

LeBron makes cross court passes against his body to open corner shooters like no one before him. While I would love to see him play a faster, more imaginative style, he is clinical in his execution and makes insane plays in his own fashion.

You treat Magic's higher pace as a negative which if seen from the perspective of assists per game then it could be true (i.e. easier to get assists in a higher pace offense than a slower one). But I'm not blinded by their assist numbers. I think it takes more skill to run an offense at a higher tempo with multi-faceted wing players that are allowed to still excel at what they do best than a slower tempo that breaks down the game to "command double then pass" and reduces everyone else's game to jumpshots and rebounding. Unless you have a Wade or Irving, in which case you just give them possessions to do their thing without you.

Higher pace is a positive. Not many can run an offense like Magic and none of those could do it at the breakneck pace in the way Magic did it. Magic on the other hand could do what Lebron does and do it better. Again, watch the 91 Finals. I just watched all five games looking for MJ's youthful brilliance but I was struck over and over again how Magic could find his teammates for wide open shots when the Bulls even thought to double him. And he didn't take 18 seconds to do it either. Lebron could not have averaged 12 assists against that Bulls defense. Magic played 46 mins a game and was getting D'ed up by Jordan, Pippen and Grant without a break (backup point was a joke). In Game 5, he got 20 assists setting up Elden Campbell and AC Green. Only seven Lakers played and no one else had more than 3 assists. And it was a tie game with under 5 mins to go.

Magic against MJ, Pippen, Grant with 2 missing starters and playing with 5 guys that can't handle the ball.

Basically, Lebron this year except...he was defended by more than just Iggy (Pippen Lite Lite) and competed against a team far greater than Golden State.

[HurricaneKid]

You treat Magic's higher pace as a negative which if seen from the perspective of assists per game then it could be true (i.e. easier to get assists in a higher pace offense than a slower one). But I'm not blinded by their assist numbers. I think it takes more skill to run an offense at a higher tempo with multi-faceted wing players that are allowed to still excel at what they do best than a slower tempo that breaks down the game to "command double then pass" and reduces everyone else's game to jumpshots and rebounding. Unless you have a Wade or Irving, in which case you just give them possessions to do their thing without you.

Higher pace is a positive. Not many can run an offense like Magic and none of those could do it at the breakneck pace in the way Magic did it. Magic on the other hand could do what Lebron does and do it better. Again, watch the 91 Finals. I just watched all five games looking for MJ's youthful brilliance but I was struck over and over again how Magic could find his teammates for wide open shots when the Bulls even thought to double him. And he didn't take 18 seconds to do it either. Lebron could not have averaged 12 assists against that Bulls defense. Magic played 46 mins a game and was getting D'ed up by Jordan, Pippen and Grant without a break (backup point was a joke). In Game 5, he got 20 assists setting up Elden Campbell and AC Green. Only seven Lakers played and no one else had more than 3 assists. And it was a tie game with under 5 mins to go.

Magic against MJ, Pippen, Grant with 2 missing starters and playing with 5 guys that can't handle the ball.

Basically, Lebron this year except...he was defended by more than just Iggy (Pippen Lite Lite) and competed against a team far greater than Golden State.

Did you read my post? I repeatedly said I wish LeBron would play with more pace and less deliberation. But yes, I was referring to inflated stats in a far higher paced game. FTR, defenses were AWFUL in the 80s. Offensive efficiency has never been higher. And if you watch the games its evident. I think it was the perfect time for Magic to play. Whereas a lot of his magic would have been manhandled in the slogging, ugly 90s.

And while I agree that LeBron holds the ball too long, its not like Magic didn't have the ball ALL the time too.

And defenses have eveolved SOOOooo far since 1991. That Bulls squad was a great defense for its age. But the current rules are far more forgiving for defenses and it has completely changed the game.

[Da_Realist]

Did you read my post? I repeatedly said I wish LeBron would play with more pace and less deliberation. But yes, I was referring to inflated stats in a far higher paced game. FTR, defenses were AWFUL in the 80s. Offensive efficiency has never been higher. And if you watch the games its evident. I think it was the perfect time for Magic to play. Whereas a lot of his magic would have been manhandled in the slogging, ugly 90s.

And while I agree that LeBron holds the ball too long, its not like Magic didn't have the ball ALL the time too.

And defenses have eveolved SOOOooo far since 1991. That Bulls squad was a great defense for its age. But the current rules are far more forgiving for defenses and it has completely changed the game.

Totally disagree. Especially about the defense. That's laughable.

[Rose'sACL]

Totally disagree. Especially about the defense. That's laughable.
no, it isnt.
defense was nowhere near the defense being played since the 90s.

[Da_Realist]

no, it isnt.
defense was nowhere near the defense being played since the 90s.

Seriously? Lebron iso-ing a thousand times a game without another Warrior within 10 miles of him wasn't proof enough? That can't compare to MJ+Pip+Grant bodying Magic full court for 46 mins a game. Stop it.

[HurricaneKid]

Totally disagree. Especially about the defense. That's laughable.

I'll just put you on ignore. This post is that bad. Some people actually prefer the hand check/grabby defense but it made for a bad game.

Strategically, one is chess and the other is checkers. Defenses now defend as units and defend each player differenctly (at least the good teams).

It comes down to this. In 1987 when MJ avg 37.1 there were 39 players that went for 20+. The best offense was to iso your best player. Period. And the NBA wanted it that way so they could market their stars. Now even the best ISO players in the NBA are well below league avg efficiency because defenses are able to focus on the more dangerous offensive players.

[HurricaneKid]

Seriously? Lebron iso-ing a thousand times a game without another Warrior within 10 miles of him wasn't proof enough? That can't compare to MJ+Pip+Grant bodying Magic full court for 46 mins a game. Stop it.

I feel bad for you. You don't even understand what you are seeing, much less appreciate the cat and mouse aspects of it.

[tpols]

cmon man, there's nothing chess about what warriors defense did to LeBron.. they did not throw the whole defense at him, they went 1v1, sagged a bit and gave 'the star' jumpers.. of which he couldn't hit even 30%.


Other players especially like MJ would've required a hard double and if they wanted to zone/shade him as a unit to death hed drill midrange jumpers in their grills all game long. Lord if magic ever saw these shading zones lol, he'd knife them apart.

[Rose'sACL]

Seriously? Lebron iso-ing a thousand times a game without another Warrior within 10 miles of him wasn't proof enough? That can't compare to MJ+Pip+Grant bodying Magic full court for 46 mins a game. Stop it.
lol........80s turns into 90s and in some time you will talk about 2008 celtics as a 80s team.



cmon man, there's nothing chess about what warriors defense did to LeBron.. they did not throw the whole defense at him, they went 1v1, sagged a bit and gave 'the star' jumpers.. of which he couldn't hit even 30%.


Other players especially like MJ would've required a hard double and if they wanted to zone/shade him as a unit to death hed drill midrange jumpers in their grills all game long. Lord if magic ever saw these shading zones lol, he'd knife them apart.
yes, the great shooter and scorer magic johnson.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I have probably seen 10X as many Magic games as you have.

I highly doubt that, especially when you say stuff like LeBron being as good of a half-court passer as Magic.

You can say what you want though, I most likely won't believe it.




I also believe it is important to discuss the rudimentary defenses he played against in his day compared to the defenses in the current league.

Its a different game now. And a far better one.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :facepalm

Discussion is just futile here...



Right.

Magic -- Coop-a-loop, thread the needle pass to a spot that wasn't open a second beforehand, leader of an offense that ran teams in the ground, behind-the-back/head and no-look passes on a team where everyone got 3-4 easy baskets a game.

Lebron -- drive-n-kick, post-n-kick, pick-n-roll and specialize in creating mismatches and passing to teammates for jumpshots. Takes more time to develop and easier to stop. Because lebron always has the ball, his assists accumulate but that doesn't mean he's the same type of floor general as Magic Johnson.

Generally speaking, Magic set guys up for layups. Lebron sets his guys up for jumpshots.

And Magic was elite in the halfcourt. Watch him in the 88 Finals for the best example of this. Watch Magic whiz passes left and right over an elite Chicago defense in the 91 Finals. And this was a slow, plodding offense with guys like Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac.

:applause:

[FireDavidKahn]

Gilbert salty he couldn't play with Lebron:oldlol:

[gilalizard]

http://i.imgur.com/PCb9Ol5.gif

dat hot hand! :roll:


So LeBron is a generational athlete with a journeyman's heart.

The most noteworthy thing about him is what he's been given, not what he's done with those gifts.

We knew this.

[FKAri]

dat hot hand! :roll:


So LeBron is a generational athlete with a journeyman's heart.

The most noteworthy thing about him is what he's been given, not what he's done with those gifts.

We knew this.

Somewhat agree but it's not due to lack of effort. Even a guy with his bbiq and athleticism can't just "hit the gym" and come out an MJ level iso scorer. There are too many variables that make a player great.

[Graviton]

I don't understand the "God given" shit, he had to work his ass off since childhood to get that body, only thing that was thanks to genetics may have been his height. If he sat around eating and exercising like the average American he would be some fatass loser and no one would try to diminish his so called "God given talents". :oldlol:

Same shit is said about Westbrook but the dude couldn't dunk til his senior year in high school and had a skinny average body. I'm sure his "talents" just magically exploded at that age, not like he was a gym rat that worked his ass off for years to refine his body to be what it is today. Just look at his brother, so much "God given ability".

http://thewindow.barneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BFA_9593_114701411.jpg

[FireDavidKahn]

I don't understand the "God given" shit, he had to work his ass off since childhood to get that body, only thing that was thanks to genetics may have been his height. If he sat around eating and exercising like the average American he would be some fatass loser and no one would try to diminish his so called "God given talents". :oldlol:

Same shit is said about Westbrook but the dude couldn't dunk til his senior year in high school and had a skinny average body. I'm sure his "talents" just magically exploded at that age, not like he was a gym rat that worked his ass off for years to refine his body to be what it is today. Just look at his brother, so much "God given ability".

http://thewindow.barneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BFA_9593_114701411.jpg
:rolleyes: Not everyone is on a level playing field when they are born when it omes to athletics.:rolleyes: Some people are just naturally more athletic.:facepalm

[Rose'sACL]

:rolleyes: Not everyone is on a level playing field when they are born when it omes to athletics.:rolleyes: Some people are just naturally more athletic.:facepalm
same goes for when it comes to how intelligent someone is. Some have a bigger brain. Some people have really good photographic memory.

This is why i have no problem with women who are gold-diggers.

[Prime_Shaq]

I don't understand the "God given" shit, he had to work his ass off since childhood to get that body, only thing that was thanks to genetics may have been his height. If he sat around eating and exercising like the average American he would be some fatass loser and no one would try to diminish his so called "God given talents". :oldlol:

Same shit is said about Westbrook but the dude couldn't dunk til his senior year in high school and had a skinny average body. I'm sure his "talents" just magically exploded at that age, not like he was a gym rat that worked his ass off for years to refine his body to be what it is today. Just look at his brother, so much "God given ability".

http://thewindow.barneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BFA_9593_114701411.jpg
Wasn't there an article that said LeBron didn't even work out till he entered the NBA or something?

[tpols]

I don't understand the "God given" shit, he had to work his ass off since childhood to get that body, only thing that was thanks to genetics may have been his height. If he sat around eating and exercising like the average American he would be some fatass loser and no one would try to diminish his so called "God given talents". :oldlol:

Same shit is said about Westbrook but the dude couldn't dunk til his senior year in high school and had a skinny average body. I'm sure his "talents" just magically exploded at that age, not like he was a gym rat that worked his ass off for years to refine his body to be what it is today. Just look at his brother, so much "God given ability".

http://thewindow.barneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BFA_9593_114701411.jpg

Westbrook must've really worked his ass off to grow those 6+ inches taller than his bro

[9erempiree]

Water is wet.

We already knew this about Lebron. This is nothing here except Agent Zero is a huge Lebron fan. LOL @ #3

He's not even top 10.

Anyways, like I said Arenas is stating the obvious so I really don't have anything to elaborate on.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Westbrook must've really worked his ass off to grow those 6+ inches taller than his bro


:roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

Why people think scoring=selfish. The highest chance of winning is to be an elite scorer so wanting to win is now selfishness.lol selfishness is refusing to play off the ball for stat purposes. If you think youre not the best then you have to hide that insecurity by statpadding. We have seen that with wilt, oscar. If you really are the best, you let rings speak for themselves. Jordan/kobe doesnt need to post triple doubles coz they knew they are the best

[Graviton]

Westbrook must've really worked his ass off to grow those 6+ inches taller than his bro
I already said height is the only thing that can be argued as "God given". But even then it's not like his family is full of genetic freaks. :lol

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h164/ybfchic/DECEMBER%202013/0d5dea31-0d67-4fdb-8014-41f2e26f3201.jpeg

[knicksman]

What idiot compares LeBron to MJ as a scorer? :biggums:

The problem is hes being compared to even kobe which is not even close.

[stalkerforlife]

http://i58.tinypic.com/11b0niw.jpg