Best Big 3 Ever? highlights

[Dr.J4ever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVeAzg1C1Y

Erving, Malone, Toney
1983 76ers ECF Game 5 vs the Bucks

[TheMan]

Magic, Kareem, Worthy >

[Lebronxrings]

*Insert any 3 nba players post 200 here*

[Rocketswin2013]

I knew it would be this exact team but I thought you'd pick cheeks instead. Btw, not even close. 80's stans are always hyping that era.

[Dr.J4ever]

Magic, Kareem, Worthy >

Arguable...By the time those 3 above teamed up, Kaj wasn't in his prime. Toney was as good or a better scorer than Worthy, and Moses dominated Kaj in their head to head.

Close though...also Wilt, Baylor, and West

[Dr.J4ever]

I knew it would be this exact team but I thought you'd pick cheeks instead. Btw, not even close. 80's stans are always hyping that era.

Watch the highlights, man. After, tell me those 3 players won't dominate in any era.

Cheeks was a great PG, but Toney was one of the most explosive scorers in NBA history. Do some research. Ainge talked about fearing Toney more than any other player. If memory serves me right, this included Jordan.

Toney wasn't called the the Boston Strangler for nothing.

[uber]

Moses is so underrated on this board ..

[West-Side]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVeAzg1C1Y

Erving, Malone, Toney
1983 76ers ECF Game 5 vs the Bucks

Sam Jones, Bill Russell & John H.
Rodman, Pippen, Jordan
Worthy, KAJ & Magic
Bird, McHale & RP
James, Wade, Bosh

Are comparable; not sure if any are better though.
Malone, Dr. J & Toney were a great trio.

I wonder how great Paul, Kobe & Howard would have been.

[superteamtheory]

1. Magic-Kareem-Worthy (two top 10 players ever + another great ... criminal!)
2. Bird-McHale-Parish
3. Duncan-Parker-Gino
4. Bron-Wade-Bosh
5. MJ-Pippen-Rodman
6. Russell-Havlicek-Jones
7. Russell-Cousy-Jones
8. K.G.-Pierce-Allen
9. Reed-Frazier-Debusschere
10. Ben Wallace-Billups-Sheed / Isiah-Dumars-Rodman

and some limitedtime specials:

Webber-Peja-Vlade
Isiah-Rodman-Dantley
K.D.-Westbrook-Harden
Wilt-West-Baylor
Kobe-Pau-Artest
Duncan-Aldridge-Kawhi

best one that almost but didn't happen:

T-Mac-Yao-Metta

just a little bit too late:

Hakeem-Barkley-Drexler- < would have been the ultimate if they get it together sooner

... might be some others also ... meaningful stat: Bron had to play against 3-4 of the teams on that list above... players with the next worst luck: K.G./Pierce/Allen (had to play Heat Big 3 & 2010 Lakers..)

Moses, Erving, Toney is more comparable to Wilt, West, Goodrich... sort of a one-off that was successful for a little while but there have been better...

[Marchesk]

Kobe, Shaq, Horry :confusedshrug:

[Bernkastel]

Jordan-Pippen-Jackson

[JohnnySic]

Bird/McHale/Parish - the original big 3 (literally; the pharse was coined for them. It was after they were gone, but still...)

Important point - its because they were all good and physically big. Dennis Johnson was also a hof'er but wasn't included because he wasn't a big. 3 great players dont make a "big 3"; they all need to be bigs.

[3ball]

I'm still waiting for you to show me those clearouts..

lying ****

[superteamtheory]

I'm still waiting for you to show me those clearouts..

lying ****

and who are your Big3s 3Ball?

[superteamtheory]

Jordan-Pippen-Jackson

true.. tho I'll take Kobe-Shaq-Jackson if Kobe, Shaq and Jackson will for another half decade..

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


and who are your Big3s 3Ball?



Moses, Dr. J, and Toney... Dr.J4ever is still a lying **** about the clearouts though.

That's a myth created by young fans that are dumb enough to think it flies when people can either go back and check, or actually saw the games themselves.

He has yet to produce 1 such clearout.

Meanwhile, I can produce a ton... Just watch the 2015 ECF and 2015 Finals - that's literally the only time in history where the type of clearouts he claims actually happened.
.

[superteamtheory]

Moses, Dr. J, and Toney

:applause:











/ :rolleyes:

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


:applause:



Greatest Big 3 of all time.. Bar none.. But Dr.J4ever is still a lying **** about the clearouts though.

That's a myth created by young fans that are dumb enough to think it flies when people can either go back and check, or actually saw the games themselves.

He has yet to produce 1 such clearout.

Meanwhile, I can produce a ton... Just watch the 2015 ECF and 2015 Finals - that's literally the only time in history where the type of clearouts he claims actually happened (the type seen above).

[SHAQisGOAT]

Best ever? Don't think so, that belongs most likely to Kareem/Magic/Worthy... But Moses/Erving/Toney is certainly one of the greatest ever and pretty underrated.

Toney gets overlooked nowadays because he had a short prime due to injury, but that man was a very good baller, a killer in his best days. Sacrificed plenty of his numbers, plenty of fame and personal accolades for the sake of the team.

Everbody knows about the Dr, dude was still much more than legit in the his days alongside Malone.

Moses is, imho, underrated... A top6 all-time center who had a big-time peak.

That 1983 squad had peak Moses, still in his prime Dr J, prime Toney... Together with players like Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones, Iavaroni or Clint Richardson.
Team was incredible and stacked af.
They would kill on the boards, watch how they could play tremendous pressure D and just feast on the fastbreak, they knew how to move the ball around, they looked for the best highest % shots... Love to watch that team, very balanced and blazed through the post-season.




Bird/McHale/Parish - the original big 3 (literally; the pharse was coined for them. It was after they were gone, but still...)

Important point - its because they were all good and physically big.

True, many people don't know that though.

http://basketballphoto.com/Photos/Big-3-Bird-Parish-Mchale.jpg

[Dr.J4ever]

Best ever? Don't think so, that belongs most likely to Kareem/Magic/Worthy... But Moses/Erving/Toney is certainly one of the greatest ever and pretty underrated.

Toney gets overlooked nowadays because he had a short prime due to injury, but that man was a very good baller, a killer in his best days. Sacrificed plenty of his numbers, plenty of fame and personal accolades for the sake of the team.

Everbody knows about the Dr, dude was still much more than legit in the his days alongside Malone.

Moses is, imho, underrated... A top6 all-time center who had a big-time peak.

That 1983 squad had peak Moses, still in his prime Dr J, prime Toney... Together with players like Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones, Iavaroni or Clint Richardson.
Team was incredible and stacked af.
They would kill on the boards, watch how they could play tremendous pressure D and just feast on the fastbreak, they knew how to move the ball around, they looked for the best highest % shots... Love to watch that team, very balanced and blazed through the post-season.





True, many people don't know that though.

http://basketballphoto.com/Photos/Big-3-Bird-Parish-Mchale.jpg

Yep, won't argue. There were other great Big 3s, for sure.

I think for one season, they may have been the best ever. Worthy, Kareem and Magic did it more than one year, and my Big 3 couldn't do it over a longer time period. Unfortunately, in 1984, Doc was starting to show his age after a great run from 1979-1983 where he peaked in his NBA playing years. Toney also started having those "mysterious" injuries, and just based on my memory, Moses, believe it or not started displaying qualities that showed he was no longer in his prime either.

Just imagine that the following year, not even a young Barkley could make the 76ers match what Boston and LA had built since. They were a contender in reputation only in 1985. They still reached the ECF that year, but were no match for Boston(4-1), and I knew it too even before the series started.

Anyway, for one year, Philly played at a level that was as good as any NBA team had ever played. A lot of people won't know this, but the 76ers of 1983 raced to the best start in NBA history, a 50-7 start. They easily could have been better that their final mark of 65-17, but they rested a tired Doc and Toney had some injury bugs over their last 16 or so games where they finished at just a .500 record.

:bowdown: :cheers:

[Dr.J4ever]

Greatest Big 3 of all time.. Bar none.. But Dr.J4ever is still a lying **** about the clearouts though.

That's a myth created by young fans that are dumb enough to think it flies when people can either go back and check, or actually saw the games themselves.

He has yet to produce 1 such clearout.

Meanwhile, I can produce a ton... Just watch the 2015 ECF and 2015 Finals - that's literally the only time in history where the type of clearouts he claims actually happened (the type seen above).

:lol

You inserting your paint camping campaign in this thread of Big 3s is laughable. Frankly, I'm just tired and bored of this sick obsession of yours. You wake up every morning and think about zone defenses, Lebron vs, Jordan, and paint camping.

Count me out.

[3ball]

You inserting your paint camping campaign in this thread of Big 3s is laughable. Frankly, I'm just tired and bored of this sick obsession of yours. You wake up every morning and think about zone defenses, Lebron vs, Jordan, and paint camping.

Count me out.


Still waiting for you to show me one clearout.

The reality is that the first and only time real clearouts ever happened for a wing player was the 2015 Finals.


https://38.media.tumblr.com/bf0a68944606f0539f0ba4a83a01f220/tumblr_nlj5lt9ZWX1t7uuyso1_400.gif

[sdot_thadon]

Still waiting for you to show me one clearout.

The reality is that the first and only time real clearouts ever happened for a wing player was the 2015 Finals.
Straight up lie. And proof that you never watched Mj.

[superteamtheory]

Dear mods,

3Ball is altering quotes to make up things I did not say...

Literally trying to put words in my mouth...

If this isn't grounds for banning...
what is? Or can we just go around making up things 3ball says?

Step up your game, mods.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVeAzg1C1Y

Erving, Malone, Toney
1983 76ers ECF Game 5 vs the Bucks

More like Big 4. Jones is all over the place in that video.

[ZMonkey11]

1. Magic-Kareem-Worthy (two top 10 players ever + another great ... criminal!)
2. Bird-McHale-Parish
3. Duncan-Parker-Gino
4. Bron-Wade-Bosh
5. MJ-Pippen-Rodman
6. Russell-Havlicek-Jones
7. Russell-Cousy-Jones
8. K.G.-Pierce-Allen
9. Reed-Frazier-Debusschere
10. Ben Wallace-Billups-Sheed / Isaiah-Dumars-Rodman

and some limitedtime specials:

Webber-Peja-Vlade
Isaiah-Rodman-Dantley
K.D.-Westbrook-Harden
Wilt-West-Baylor
Kobe-Pau-Artest
Duncan-Aldridge-Kawhi

best one that almost but didn't happen:

T-Mac-Yao-Metta

just a little bit too late:

Hakeem-Barkley-Drexler- < would have been the ultimate if they get it together sooner

... might be some others also ... meaningful stat: Bron had to play against 3-4 of the teams on that list above... players with the next worst luck: K.G./Pierce/Allen (had to play Heat Big 3 & 2010 Lakers..)

Moses, Erving, Toney is more comparable to Wilt, West, Goodrich... sort of a one-off that was successful for a little while but there have been better...

ISIAH.

[3ball]

Straight up lie. And proof that you never watched Mj.
And here you are, trolling and perpetuating the lie at the same time.

But the reality is that coaches NEVER put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate a star player in the 80's or 90's and you can't show me on instance where they did.

You never saw Phil Jackson or Doug Collins put 4 guys behind the 3-point line so MJ could go 1-on-1 against the Bad Boys, 90's Knicks, 1996 Sonics, you name it - anyone can look at the tape - it never happened even one time.

It never happened for Magic or Bird, or ANY player in the 80's or 90's - it's a complete fabrication young fans have developed to avoid having to argue about today's soft defensive setup that the league purposefully instituted.
.

[superteamtheory]

ISIAH.

sorry! will fix..

[3ball]

But the reality is that coaches NEVER put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate a star player in the 80's or 90's and you can't show me on instance where they did.



Here's what it looks like when a coach puts 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate the star player


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif



The 2015 NBA Finals and also the conference finals were the only times in history a coach has actually done this (place 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate a star player) - here are some examples vs. Atlanta:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/LN8UHS.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/QpWaKl.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/WAhpK1.gif

[sdot_thadon]

And here you are, trolling and perpetuating the lie at the same time.

But the reality is that coaches NEVER put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate a star player in the 80's or 90's and you can't show me on instance where they did.

You never saw Phil Jackson or Doug Collins put 4 guys behind the 3-point line so MJ could go 1-on-1 against the Bad Boys, 90's Knicks, 1996 Sonics, you name it - anyone can look at the tape - it never happened even one time.

It never happened for Magic or Bird, or ANY player in the 80's or 90's - it's a complete fabrication young fans have developed to avoid having to argue about today's soft defensive setup that the league purposefully instituted.
.

Again like superteamtheory just wrote you put words in people's mouths while skating the bs line with your own words. I've never said anyone put 4 guys behind the three point line. I said clearouts occurred before the 2015 finals. But since you asked so politely I'll show you what happens when you only watch highlight reels.
Ah funny what just a few minutes of research can do for you.




Jordan's conspirator and early instigator in these deparures was Johnny Bach, who whispered his opinion. "Johnny would say, '**** the triangle. Just take the ball and score. Get everyone to clear out,' "Jordan recalled.

The Newyorker december, 1998




Tex Winter drew up a variation on a basic Chicago play, called Whatthe****—actually an old New York play, from Jackson’s time on the Knicks. It called for the Bulls to clear out on one side, in order to isolate Jordan against Bryon Russell

Chicago Tribune, November 1987



This season, some say, they`re going after Jordan with the NBA rulebook.
There`s a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.

Icing on the cake......

Officially it`s Section 32 Paragraph 15, but around the league it`s getting to be known as ``the Michael Jordan rule.``

Stfu and lay off the highlights bro.

[3ball]

I've never said anyone put 4 guys behind the three point line.


Yes you did - the entire point of your guys' argument was that coaches put players BEHIND THE ARC to take advantage of the illegal defense rules - according to you guys, the illegal defense rules forced defenders to "follow" offensive players to the 3-point line, thus allowing a magnitude of clear-out isolations that we don't see today - here's Flpiii's quote right here:





this is why the clear-out isolation era was born, when guys would stand beyond the arc even if they weren't shooters, and the men guarding them had to follow them


^^^^^ this is a complete fabrication - teams didn't even ATTEMPT 3-pointers back then, let alone FAKE like they were going to.. Teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game in the 80's - so instances where 3+ players spent a possession behind the 3-point line literally don't exist - this alone disproves their claim

Nor did the Illegal Defense Guidelines force defenders to hug shooters at the 3-point line - the adjacent zones specified in the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to sag off 3-point shooters, so that defenders could play man-to-man defense the same way man-to-man HAS ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED

The worst part is how ludicrous it is - like, we know for a FACT that Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, KC Jones - you name it - none of these guys put 4 players behind the 3-point line to isolate the star player - it literally NEVER happened.. How are you not embarassed by claiming Pat Riley or Chuck Daly positioned Salley, Edwards and Mahorn or Ewing, Oakley and Xavier behind the 3-point line - you don't think anyone knows that this DIDN'T happen, ever?... It's insanity..

Coaches TODAY don't even put non-shooting bigs behind the 3-point line because they know it doesn't draw defenders out - defenders aren't fooled by thinking they need to guard non-shooters.. When guarding non-shooters, defenders don't to have decide whether to stay at home or help - they know they are going to help the whole time and will sag off the maximum amount and help immediately, so their recovery time is too quick - this is why coaches don't put non-shooting bigs on the perimeter - it DOESN'T WORK to spread the floor.





I said clearouts occurred before the 2015 finals.


Uh no - you guys said a lot more than that - again, your guys' main argument (quoted above) was that coaches put players BEHIND THE ARC even if they were non-shooters - you guys said the Illegal Defense Guidelines forced defenders to "follow" these guys out to the arc, thus allowing more secluded isolations for the star player.

I have yet to see where Chuck Daly or Phil Jackson put Longley, Wennington and Dave Corzine behind the 3-point line to isolate MJ.. G-T-F-O

That didn't happen in previous eras.. That's a lie you guys made up to counter the reality of legal paint-camping and poor coaching strategy that didn't space the floor..

[3ball]

You said 2015 Finals were the first time clearouts ever happened


You're lying again - I never said that.

I said the 2015 conference finals and Finals is the first time a coach put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate the star player......

which is 100% true - no player has ever enjoyed such secluded isolations in the history of the game.

[sportjames23]

Magic, Kareem, Worthy >


Them or Bird/Parish/McHale or MJ/Pip/Grant (or Rodman).

[3ball]

Them or Bird/Parish/McHale or MJ/Pip/Grant (or Rodman).
MJ, Pippen and Grant were never considered a Big 3

You think Horace Grant belongs in a Big 3?

He's several levels below the members of virtually every other Big 3 ever

Only in hindsight, once we look back and say "Wow, a 3-peat", do people overrate Grant as a notable player - but at the time, he was a role player, nothing more.. The Bulls were a Big 2, with a role player.
.

[3ball]

Chicago Tribune, 1987

There`s a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.


So wait... It was ILLEGAL to clearout?

You're arguing against yourself here and just proved I was right - putting players behind the 3-point line to isolate another player was ILLEGAL, as of 1987.

Thanks for proving my point - I will use this going forward to disprove future claims of an "isolation era" in the 80's and 90's...

You and Flpiii always do this - prove my arguments for me - he said paint-camping was not legal in previous eras, then he sends me a link to Rule 2b, the legal paint-camping provision of the Illegal Defense Guidelines... :hammerhead:

Btw, Flpiii is ALSO the one that sent me the link to the famous Stu Jackson article - I swear to god it's true... So you have him to blame for that as well!!!!!!!!!... If I could find the actual post where he sent me that article I would.





Again show me where I specifically say 4 guys or stfu dude, you're done.


You said they placed non-shooters behind the 3-point line to isolate for the star player - THIS A LIE.

Riley, Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson - none of these coaches placed Ewing, Longley, or John Salley behind the 3-point line to isolate someone and it's ludicrous to think they did...

Not only that, but isolating in this fashion was ILLEGAL as of 1987

So i've proved you wrong again, and you actually helped this time.. Good job... Pat yourself on the back for proving that clearout isolations where a coach puts players behind the 3-point line was ILLEGAL in the 80's and 90's... :applause:

Oh btw, Prometheus did the same thing once - prove my point for me - we were disputing Lebron's level of ball-domination, and then he points me to nba.com stats, where we find the NBA has ball-domination data - the data showed that Lebron and Harden are the only non-PGs in the league that dominate the ball more than starting point guards.. It was hilarious.. So this is now 4 times you guys have significantly helped, if not MADE, my arguments (although, tbh, I don't consider Prometheus a liar like you, Flpiii and Dr.J4ever are).
.

[Kobe_6/8]

I think a true Big 3 must be made up of 3 players who are first-options on most NBA teams. I don't count Duncan/Gino/Parker or Jordan/Pippen/Rodman, etc.

James/Wade/Bosh

[3ball]

Hey Flpiii, Dr.J4ever and all other MJ haters - don't EVER say the 80's and 90's were the clearout" or "isolation" era - that has now been proven as 100% false:

New NBA Rule instituted in 1987 (per Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune):


Section 32 Paragraph 15...

... a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.


As you can see, clearouts were ILLEGAL starting in 1987...


How you like them apples Flpiii, Dr.J4ever, and sdot_thadon.... So don't you EVER............................ EVER EVER EVER EVER.... EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER... say that the 80's and 90's were the "clearout" era - it's the opposite - clearouts were ILLEGAL you cocksucking liars.. :hammertime:

[Fire Colangelo]

Holy **** wtf??

Keep your shit in one thread. Not everyone gives a **** about clear outs and what not.

[Rocketswin2013]

Not sure why he isn't banned by now tbh.


Edit: cringe-worthy.

[3ball]

Not sure why he isn't banned by now tbh.


Edit: cringe-worthy.
You losers are the ones lying itt... Making shit up about how teams used to put non-shooters behind the 3-point line to isolate.

That is a blatant lie that never happened - it's not even about producing an example - IT NEVER HAPPENED - like, it's complete lunacy to say that coaches used to put non-shooters like John Salley behind the 3-point line..

I'm amazed everyone are such a bitches, that they don't have the spine to stand on their own two feet and say the truth, just because they don't want to side with me?

That proves most posters on here are insecure little bitches with no spine that can't stand on their own two feet.. They can't even stand up and state the obvious truth.. They prefer to accept a lie.. It's pathetic... I get sick thinking about discussing basketball with you guys - you're not worth it- you guys don't know shit and/or are very very lame

[Dr.J4ever]

Was about to post a Dr.J highlight reel and came across the "evidence" :lol 3ball was looking for.

To clarify, what I originally said in a piece to 3ball, was that the 76er of the pre-Moses era had plays where they would try to expose the illegal defense of the other teams by putting people outside the 3 point arc, even players who couldn't shoot that far out. Others here like Kblaze seem to remember that too with Nellie's old Bucks and maybe others too.

Now, what I said about the 76ers taking advantage of the old rules absolutely happened, even though I'm only basing it on my memory of that era. So now, this highlight reel shows it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdIJ52-8YzI

Watch at the 9:13 mark of the above video where Doc is isolated at the left elbow, while SF/PF Bobby Jones, a medium range shooter at best, and C Caldwell Jones, who can't shoot at all, and PG Lionel Hollins are all outside of the 3 point arc. In Hollin's case, he is way out and he has never been considered a long range bomber. The opposing defenders are pretty close to them, and Doc is isolated almost completely.

This video, while I don't recall this game at all, must have been pre-Moses, and even pre-1981 when Andrew Toney joined the 76ers, just because Lionel Hollins is still on the team. Hollins was no longer on the team when Toney joined the 76ers in 1981.

So there, 3ball. Now , as for the 1987 thing, let the others explain that. BTW, get your paint camping shit in your own thread.

Just as a side note, this would probably be the way Julius would be used in today's smarter offenses, but this time with real shooters as a threat to clear the paint. Back then, at least before 1987, iso guys could be isolated in this way, but to be honest, I only recall it being used in certain sets. It seemed they were used by coaches to prove a point to the refs.

[3ball]

Watch at the 9:13 mark of the above video where Doc is isolated at the right elbow


Why show an instance with only 3 guys behind the 3-point line, and act like that's what I said?

I said FOUR players and there's a REASON for that - putting 4 guys behind the 3-point line is the most optimal kind of isolation.

These optimal isolations NEVER happened in the 80's and 90's, but they happen all the time today.

I can show dozens of optimal isolations from today's game, where all 4 players are behind the 3-point line - but you can't show even ONE such optimal isolation from the 80's or 90's.

Btw, from sdot's article, Doug Collins said they didn't have ANY isolation or clearout plays for Jordan, let alone have 4 guys behind the 3-point line to set it up:


Sam Smith, Chicaco Tribune, 1987:

Yet, even that, like Jordan`s flights of fancy toward the basket, was improvised. According to Bulls coach Doug Collins, the Bulls do not have plays to specifically isolate Jordan. It`s just that his skills enable him to make it look as if everyone else is standing around and watching.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-11-15/sports/8703260367_1_bulls-coach-doug-collins-operations-chief-jerry-krause-michael-jordan-rule





putting people outside the 3 point arc, even players who couldn't shoot that far out.. Others here like Kblaze seem to remember that too


^^^^ This is the real lie you guys have been spreading - you guys claim that even though previous eras didn't have 3-point shooters, coaches spread the floor anyway by using non-shooters instead... In other words, previous eras DID have spacing - coaches in previous eras DID space the floor.. It's disgraceful.

Look, there's nothing wrong with finding a one-off example and saying "oh look, apparently it happened once in a blue moon back then"... But it's another thing to state "coaches put non-shooters behind the 3-point line in previous eras" and act like the floor was spaced.

IT WAS NOT - the floor was NOT spaced in previous eras - previous eras did NOT have spacing - for you guys to act like the floor WAS spaced because coaches merely used non-shooters is an outrageous lie.. You should be ashamed that you must lie to prop up your erroneous beliefs about the game.. It's better to simply acquire accurate beliefs so you don't have to lie and make excuses.

Of course, anyone that understands basketball knows that it's dumb for a coach to use non-shooters to spread the floor or facilitate clearouts.. Defenders encourage non-shooters to shoot by sagging off - when defenders sag off the maximum while knowing they will never have to contest, they help can help off non-shooters that much quicker, which nullifies the entire objective of a clearout.





Now, as for the 1987 thing, let the others explain that.


This rule relates to the lie you guys are spreading that previous eras spaced the floor.. Flpiii claimed that: "teams started putting non-shooters above the arc where their defenders had to follow them"

We already know this is BS because the floor wasn't spaced in previous eras, let alone spaced by non-shooters.

But even without knowing this, the 1987 rule banned the placement of players behind the 3-point line to create isolations (the exact thing Flpiii claimed teams had "started" doing):


Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune, 1987:

"Section 32 Paragraph 15... a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-11-15/sports/8703260367_1_bulls-coach-doug-collins-operations-chief-jerry-krause-michael-jordan-rule


So you guys can no longer claim that "teams started putting non-shooters above the arc where their defenders had to follow them".

That lie has been debunked with this rule - you no longer have to take my word for it that you're wrong.. This rule proves it, and I'm now just the messenger.
.

[Dr.J4ever]

Again @3ball, and this is the last time that I will address this--what I said is true--the 76ers did OCCASIONALLY PUT NON SHOOTERS BEHIND THE LINE to isolate Julius, especially in the pre-Moses era. It happened, is what I said, and you called me a liar. There is the evidence above in that YT clip I provided.

I never mentioned the # of people that they put outside the arc, as some posters here have done. Don't lump me in with what other posters have said because I may or may not agree with them. I don't have alternates and you could plainly see I don't live here in ISH to promote agendas. The only thing I wanted to do when I first signed up was to talk a little bit about the Doc because I feel he is underrated here on the board, and give my take since I am probably one of the older posters here at 47 years old.

You may or may not want to apologize for calling me a liar, but I already produced one clip. Would it really be surprising to see many more clips of this example? Maybe someone produces 4 guys outside the arc? Maybe? I also never said it was used consistently, and I did my caveat by saying it was DONE TO EXPOSE THE OPPOSING TEAM FOR PLAYING AN ILLEGAL DEFENSE. Again, it was done SPARINGLY, at least based on my limited memory.

I don't disagree with many of the things you say about spacing/eras and such but it's really getting tiring bro. Time to stop beating a dead horse.

[Round Mound]

Bird-McHale & Parish The GOAT and Original Big 3.

I Think They Have The Most Wins For A Big 3 Too

[rmt]

Bird-McHale & Parish The GOAT and Original Big 3.

I Think They Have The Most Wins For A Big 3 Too

Yes. TD/TP/Manu need to win 2 more regular season games to break the Celtics' record but they have them on playoff wins.

Trio / Total wins / Regular season wins / Playoff wins

Duncan/Parker/Manu 659 539 120
Bird/McHale/Parrish 632 540 92
Magic/KAJ/Cooper 600 490 110

[Round Mound]

Yes. TD/TP/Manu need to win 2 more regular season games to break the Celtics' record but they have them on playoff wins.

Trio / Total wins / Regular season wins / Playoff wins

Duncan/Parker/Manu 659 539 120
Bird/McHale/Parrish 632 540 92
Magic/KAJ/Cooper 600 490 110

Cool Info :cheers:

[3ball]

You may or may not want to apologize for calling me a liar, because I already produced one clip of an isolation where 3 guys were behind the 3-point line.

Again, it was done SPARINGLY, at least based on my limited memory.


The argument that today's game has spacing cannot be countered by saying the 80's also had spacing and backing it up with a single clip... You concede that such spacing barely ever happened and everyone knows the 80's didn't have spacing.

So when I say that today's spacing gives players more room to operate and weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, it's not meaningful to say that teams in the 80's had spacing once in a blue moon too.

If it barely ever happened, then it didn't make the era easier to score (especially considering it was illegal)... Otoh, such clearouts happen frequently in today's game AND they're legal.

Like I told Flpiii, maybe you didn't realize you were lying by using one-offs to say the 80's had spacing.. That's quite possible, so I'll give you that.

[StephHamann]

Lebron-Bran-LeBald

[1987_Lakers]

Bird/Parish/McHale
Magic/Kareem/Worthy
Duncan/Parker/Ginobili
LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Those are the trios that come to mind. The Lakers trio might not be as dominant as some think considering Kareem was regressing by the time Worthy was peaking as a player, still a very good trio though.

The Celtics trio might have peaked the best. At one point Bird was the league's best player and SF, McHale was the league's best PF and Parish was a legit All-Star C.

That Miami trio might have gone down as the best ever if Bosh was more dominant for them, sadly Bosh was very limited offensively in that offense and there were times when he couldn't grab a rebound, but you can't go wrong with having LeBron and Wade as your 1-2 punch.

The Spurs trio has had the most success as far as winning goes, but they clearly were not the most talented trio.

[And1AllDay]

Magic, Kareem Worthy
Jordan, Pippen, Rodman
LeBron, Wade, Bosh
Bird, McHale, Parrish
Pierce, Garnett, Allen
Shaq, Kobe, Fisher

[And1AllDay]

Bird/Parish/McHale
Magic/Kareem/Worthy
Duncan/Parker/Ginobili
LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Those are the trios that come to mind. The Lakers trio might not be as dominant as some think considering Kareem was regressing by the time Worthy was peaking as a player, still a very good trio though.

The Celtics trio might have peaked the best. At one point Bird was the league's best player and SF, McHale was the league's best PF and Parish was a legit All-Star C.

That Miami trio might have gone down as the best ever if Bosh was more dominant for them, sadly Bosh was very limited offensively in that offense and there were times when he couldn't grab a rebound, but you can't go wrong with having LeBron and Wade as your 1-2 punch.

The Spurs trio has had the most success as far as winning goes, but they clearly were not the most talented trio.

Good post, but how do you forget Jordan, Pippen, Rodman?! 3-peat.

Best scorer, one of the best wing defenders, best rebounder

[LAZERUSS]

In terms of relative primes...

Magic, Kareem, Worthy
Kareem, Magic, Wilkes
Bird, McHale, Parish
Moses, Dr. J, Toney
MJ, Pippen, Grant
MJ, Pippen, Rodman
KG, Pierce, Allen
Duncan, Parker, Ginobili

I don't put Lebron-Wade-Bosh in the above category. Wade was really only near his peak for one season, and Lebron deferred to him in that one year. And Bosh was never a factor at all.

The West-Wilt-Baylor trio was also flawed by a shell in Baylor, and a poor coach in Van Breda Kolff. However, it was interesting the very next season after VBK was fired, and LA brought in Joe Mullaney. After watching VBK butcher the Laker offense in that '69 season, Mullaney's first order of business was to ask Wilt to become the focal point of LA's offense. And in the first nine games, Wilt was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, with West just behind at 30.8 ppg. And Baylor seemed to be a nice "third-wheel, at 19.9 ppg. Unfortunately, Wilt shattered his knee, and was never the same offensive force again.

And I prefer the MJ-Pippen-Grant trio over the MJ-Pippen-Rodman trio, simply because the first trio were all in their primes. However, the second trio had a better overall supporting cast.

[3ball]

Magic, Kareem, Worthy
Kareem, Magic, Wilkes
Bird, McHale, Parish
Moses, Dr. J, Toney
MJ, Pippen, Grant
MJ, Pippen, Rodman
KG, Pierce, Allen
Duncan, Parker, Ginobili



Grant is the only non-HOF on the list - and it's not like he's close - Grant is nowhere NEAR hall-of-fame.

Claiming Horace Grant is Big-3-caliber, and claiming the Bulls even had a Big 3 is another blatant attempt by young fans to rewrite history..





I don't put Lebron-Wade-Bosh in the above category. Wade was really only near his peak for one season, and Lebron deferred to him in that one year. And Bosh was never a factor at all.


It's biased to exclude one of the most talented Big 3's of all time just because they didn't win and underperformed.

If you're excluding Wade because he wasn't in peak form, then the same thing goes for Pippen, whose stats and performance during the 2nd three-peat were worse than Wade's and ranged from sub-par to horrible..

35-year old Rodman was also past his prime during the 2nd three-peat.

So don't claim that Wade/Bosh/Allen weren't in peak form, and then act like 2nd three-peat Pippen and 35-year old Rodman WERE.. That's biased.. Btw, Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen is a Big 4 of HOF's
.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant is the only non-HOF on the list - and it's not like he's close - Grant is nowhere NEAR hall-of-fame.

Claiming Horace Grant is Big-3-caliber, and claiming the Bulls even had a Big 3 is another blatant attempt by young fans to rewrite history..



It's biased to exclude one of the most talented Big 3's of all time just because they didn't win and underperformed.

If you're excluding Wade because he wasn't in peak form, then the same thing goes for Pippen, whose stats and performance during the 2nd three-peat were worse than Wade's and ranged from sub-par to horrible..

35-year old Rodman was also past his prime during the 2nd three-peat.

So don't claim that Wade/Bosh/Allen weren't in peak form, and then act like 2nd three-peat Pippen and 35-year old Rodman WERE.. That's biased.. Btw, Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen is a Big 4 of HOF's


First of all...

Pippen-Grant from '91-95 >>>>> Wade-Bosh from '11-15

FAR greater. Wade was handed the reigns in '11, and he couldn't get it done. Riley went to Lebron and told him to run the show. PERIOD. AFter that Wade was a crumbling shell...and NOWHERE NEAR the player that Pippen was from '91-95. Hell, the Heat went 48-17 in the 65 games Wade missed in his four years with Lebron.

And Bosh was a career loser before Lebron; a worthless POS with Lebron; and huge LOSER after Lebron. While Grant was puivrizing the Bad Boys in the '91 ECF's, and the Lakers in the '91 Finals, and then routing Jordan's '95 Bulls with a performance that has to be considered the '95 ECSF MVP...Clutch performance-after-clutch performance. And Grant was having a HUGE post-season in '96, when he went down with an injury in game one of the '96 ECF's (17-12 .656 FG%) Furthermore, EVERY team that Grant joined became MUCH better. He joined MJ's 40-42 Bulls...boom...50-32. Jordan quits, and without him...55-27. He leaves for Orlando, and they immediately improve from 50-32 to 57-25 (and then 60-22 the next year.) Grant even won a ring without MJ. How about Bosh without Lebron? Played for two playoff teams, and was routed in the first round in both.

From '11 thru '14, Bosh was standing on the perimeter, and shooting 32% on wide open 3's, with zero post presence, poor rebounding, and no defense. In his biggest game of his career...ZERO points. WORTHLESS.


Secondly, as always you diminish DEFENSE. Rodman was a world-class defender when he came to Chicago, and Pippen is quite likely, the GOAT perimeter defender in NBA history, with a long list of Firts-Team All-Defensive selections. How about Wade? His last good year as a defender, came the year before Lebron arrived. Nothing since. And Bosh...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: a POS.

BTW, there are articles which claim that Rodman deserved the '96 FMVP, and Pippen the '98 FMVP. Why? Bcause Jordan couldn't a hit to save his life in those series, and in '96, he was simply AWFUL in the 4th quarters. How the hell does a Bulls team 3-peat with a shot-jacking MJ shooting .455, .427, and .415 in his Finals?

So, no matter where you want to rank Lebron's supporting casts...they were ALL, FAR worse than what your boy MJ had in his six title runs. We all saw just how good Wade and Bosh were before Lebron...and after Lebron. Meanwhile, Pippen and Grant were carrying an MJ-less roster to 55 wins.

[3ball]

First of all...

Pippen-Grant from '91-95 >>>>> Wade-Bosh from '11-15


Pippen was 20/8/6 on 48% in 91-93' playoffs, compared to 20/5/4 on 48% for Wade in 2011-2014 playoffs... Pippen was a little better.

But MJ also 3-peated from 1996-1998 when Pippen was worse than Wade - Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% overall in those playoffs, and played horrifically on many occasion.





Grant vs. Bosh


Are you kidding me?... Grant isn't capable of being a #1 option on ANY team - he's not even good enough to be the #1 option on a D-league or many college teams.

There's a reason Grant was a 1-time all-star alternate and Bosh is a 10-time, perennial all-star.. There's no comparison.

And even though Lebron cratered Bosh's stats, Lebron still got the benefit of playing with a 10-time all-star CALIBER PLAYER.. Despite Lebron-ball, Bosh's stats still destroy Grant's - Bosh was 17/7 alongside Lebron compared to 11/8 for Grant.

Bosh is also a wildly versatile player - he was a 40% three-point shooter and floors-spreader in Lebron-ball.. Otoh, Grant was a basic PF with ordinary, average ability.. Bosh is HOF while Grant is nowhere NEAR.. :oldlol:

C'mon bro, don't tell me a 1-time all-star alternate from the 90's is better than a 10-time all-star from today's game - that would mean the 90's is the FAR tougher era!!!... In which case, actually, you're on to something.





Jordan quits, and without him...55-27 and the 2nd Round


:roll:

You think the Bulls just randomly won 55 and made the 2nd Round in 1994?

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - never forget that bud.

However, BEFORE Jordan led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without him.. Just look at 1989 - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% - but instead, they made the ECF and took the champs to 6 games.

The 1989 season demonstrated MJ's goat impact on a BAD team - he took a lottery team to ECF and 6 games with the champs.. And in 1994, he showed his goat impact on a good team, when the 3-peat dynasty Bulls fell to 2nd Round without him.. Of course in his first full season back, he led the Bulls back to a championship, and eventually another 3-peat, thus VERIFYING his goat impact.





How the hell does a Bulls team 3-peat with a shot-jacking MJ shooting .455, .427, and .415 in his Finals?


GOAT clutch and 4th quarter scoring - literally... MJ's fourth quarter scoring in the 1997 and 1998 Finals ranks 3rd and 4th all time - 10.3 and 10.4 point averages, respectively.

And look at all the clutch moments - MJ hit the game-winner in Game 1 of 1997 Finals.. Flu game in Game 5, including another game-winner... In Game 6, he had the series-winning assist to Kerr after getting doubled again by Stockton.

Then in 1998 Finals, we all remember the greatest clutch moment any of us have ever seen, when he did a 2 for 1 in the last 30 seconds to win the series (a quick blow-by score with 30 seconds left to ensure they get the ball back... then the genius steal on Malone... then the epic goatness against Russell)..

You should go back and watch it if you are forgetting how he won those series - here's the last 30 seconds of Game 6 in 1998:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V_1ZxCN3nI&t=2m30s

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ, Pippen and (Insert):

[LAZERUSS]

1996 Finals (and thanks to Ne1)...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5058009&postcount=1


In the 1996 Finals, Rodman deserved consideration for Finals MVP that went to Michael Jordan.

During those Finals Rodman averaged 7.5 points and 14.7 rebounds in 37.5 minutes per game. He tied an NBA Finals record for most offensive rebounds in a game with 11. And he did that in Game 2 and the deciding game 6.

The Bulls had a commanding 3-0 lead after Jordan had his series high in points. Payton would outplay Jordan the next two games delaying the inevitable, but Jordan won the Finals MVP. I don't think Jordan deserved it. Rodman won the series with his offensive rebounding. - Elliot Kalb, Who's better Who's best in basketball?


During the Finals Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute shit in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!). MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

In the deciding Game 6 Jordan went 5-19 (26 FG%) while Rodman set a Finals record with 11 offensive rebounds. At the very least he was the MVP of the close out Game 6.

And then from the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html


N.B.A. FINALS;Once Again, Rodman Is Most Valuable Bull


And going into game six of the 1998 Finals:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all


Forget about waiting until the last bit of unfinished business is completed Friday night, when the Chicago Bulls in all likelihood will wrap up this whole thing for the sixth time. Bag the pomp and circumstances and the official balloting, too. No need for all those time-consuming formalities.

Just hand him the 1998 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player trophy right now.So you're tired of Michael Jordan getting all the recognition, all the glory, all the accolades? Then try this for a change: Scottie Pippen, MVP.

Sure, Jordan, owner of five Finals MVP trophies, again led the Bulls in scoring with 34 points. His Airness also served as a defensive terror against the Jazz.

But if Pippen's defensive performance in Game 3 didn't convince you that he's worthy of being named MVP of the Finals, then what he did on both ends of the court in the Bulls' 86-82 Game 4 victory should have clinched the vote.

Pippen impressed Jerry Sloan.

"He was sensational," said the Jazz's coach.

After scoring just 10 points in Sunday's record-setting shellacking, Pippen was even more efficient offensively than Jordan Wednesday at the United Center. He scored 28 points on 9-of-18 shooting overall and went five-for-eight from beyond the arc. Jordan needed 27 shots from the floor and 15 from the free-throw line to get his total.

Pippen, who is much healthier now than he was a year ago in the Finals, carried the Bulls' offensive yolk for much of the first half. In the first quarter, he scored six of the Bull's first eight points by swishing two 3-pointers. He also crashed the glass early on, grabbing three offensive rebounds in the first three minutes. At one point, Pippen had three offensive boards while the Jazz were still waiting for their first rebound to fall in their hands.

He ended the first quarter and opened the second with a personal 8-0 run by nailing a trey, hitting an inside shot and then drilling another 3-pointer to give Chicago a 26-19 lead. Bryon Russell interrupted his scoring exhibition with a three, but Pippen kissed a banker off the glass on the Bulls' next possession. That concluded his one-man shooting show.

At that point, with 9:32 left in the second quarter, Pippen had scored 16 points and grabbed four rebounds - and he threw in one steal for good measure.

"He did a terrific job getting in the open court, pulling up and taking the 3-point shots, and got in a great rhythm," Sloan said. "We had a difficult time trying to guard him."

And that was just half the court.

"Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. . . . He caused us a lot of problems, I think everybody is aware of that. We're aware of it," Sloan said. "We have trouble with him every time we play. And I don't know what more you can say. You can put him on any player on the floor, and he's going to do a terrific job defensively."

That versatility amazes ESPN basketball expert Dr. Jack Ramsay, a longtime coach in the NBA. Ramsay ranks Pippen among the outstanding defenders in the history of the game. Right there with K.C. Jones, Mel Hutchins, Satch Sanders and so on.

"I can't conjure up anybody who does all the things that Pippen does as a defender. I mean, he can defend anybody," Ramsay said. "We've seen him defend point guards and take them out of their game, two guards and deny them a shot, small forwards, big forwards. The only player that I haven't seen him defend well is the opposing center. I think he'd have a hard time with Shaq."

But the Jazz obviously don't have Shaq. And, for that matter, they don't have a dominating player right now - not even Malone, in part because of the suffocating defensive pressure the gangly, athletic 6-foot-7 Pippen and his teammates have been applying.

"Scottie has done a lot in terms of relieving some of the pressure off of me," said Jordan. "Defensively, he's the key component for us. He's a recovery. And we give him the authority to do whatever he wants on the defensive end . . . He can disrupt anybody's offense, really. And tonight was a great example of that."

MJ had FAR more help in his six title runs than Lebron had in his four years in Miami.

And again...Grant had a FAR greater impact from '91 thru '95 than POS Bosh. FAR greater. Grant was a WINNER everywhere h went. Bosh was a loser before Lebron, a POS with Lebron, and a loser after Lebron. And again, Grant's IMPACT on the offensive end was IMMENSELY greater. His ORtgs from '91-'95 (and '96) just DWARFED the "average" Bosh in BOTH the reguiar season, and the post-season.

While Grant was a MAJOR contributor to his teams from '91 thru '95 (and '96...his '96 post-season was staggering going into the ECF's when he got hurt)...while Bosh was nothing but a spectator for Miami (and still is.) Just plain WORTHLESS. Oh, in terms of DEFENSE...Grant, and by a MILE.

And Pippen's offense from '91 thru '94, was CONSIDERABLY better than Wade's from 11-14. In the post-season, 21.0 ppg, 8 rpg, 7 apg, to 20.0 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg. And then, how about DEFENSE? Pippen from '91 thru all six title runs...the best perimeter defender in the game, and perhaps in history. When Chicago needed a "stopper" it was NOT Jordan, it was PIPPEN. How about Wade from '11 thru '14. A broken down liability.

And Rodman was not only a world class rebounder in Chicago, he could defend multiple positions. Mu god, the man neutralized Shaq in the '96 ECF's. Bosh couldn't guard Betty White, much less Shaq.

Again...MJ had FAR greater supporting casts EVERY year in his six title runs than Lebron had in his four years in Miami. Hell, Lebron took the worst supporting cast since Wilt's '64 Finals squad, to TWO wins, and two narrow losses against a 67-15 Warrior team in the Finals. NOWHERE NEAR the talent MJ in his '87 first round SWEPING loss to a 59-23 declining Celtic team (and with Oakley putting up a 20-15 series.)

Jordans' rosters could go 55-27 without him. Lebron's clowns in Miami...37-45 without him. Hell, the Heat went 48-17 in the games Wade missed in his four years with Lebron. BTW, Pippen went 34-31 without BOTH Grant and MJ. Jordan never had a winning record with both Pippen and Grant.

[3ball]

First of all...

Pippen-Grant from '91-95 >>>>> Wade-Bosh from '11-15


In 1991-1993 playoffs, Pippen was 20/8/6 on 48%, compared to 20/5/4 on 48% for Wade in 2011-2014 playoffs... Pretty close.

But Jordan 3-peated from 1996-1998 when Pippen was clearly worse than Wade - Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in those playoffs, and played horrifically on many occasion (i.e. 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals - Wade never played that bad).





Grant vs. Bosh


Are you kidding me?... Grant isn't capable of being a #1 option on ANY team - he's not even good enough to be the #1 option on a D-league or many college teams.

There's a reason Grant was a 1-time alternate all-star and Bosh is a 10-time, perennial all-star.. There's no comparison.

And even though Lebron cratered Bosh's stats, Lebron still got the benefit of playing with a 10-time all-star CALIBER PLAYER.. And in spite of Lebron-ball, Bosh's stats still destroy Grant's - Bosh was 17/7 alongside Lebron compared to 11/8 for Grant.

Bosh is also a wildly versatile player - he was a 40% three-point shooter and floor-spreader in Lebron-ball.. Otoh, Grant was a basic PF with ordinary, average ability.. Bosh is HOF while Grant is nowhere NEAR.. :oldlol:
.

[3ball]

MJ, Pippen and (Insert):


/thread

[rmt]

MJ had FAR more help in his six title runs than Lebron had in his four years in Miami.


I have no skin in this game, but I don't agree with this statement. Yes, the Bulls had a good record after MJ, but by that time Pippen was fully developed/hardened/experienced. He was not so at the beginning of the six title run (not of the quality of a Wade/Bosh at the beginning).

OTOH, Wade was a franchise player who had led his team to a title, won FMVP. Bosh also was a franchise player. So I see it as Lebron having lots of help (meaning Wade/Bosh) at the beginning/middle of his 4 year run until Wade started to break down at the end. And as far as role players, Lebron's had lots of great cheap help that flocked to MIA to win - Ray, Battier, Miller, Jones, etc.

[3ball]

You may or may not want to apologize for calling me a liar, because I already produced one clip of an isolation where 3 guys were behind the 3-point line.


When I say that today's game is easier because of spacing and weakside spacing, it's not a valid counterargument to say the 80's were ALSO spaced, based on a few rare exceptions you find.

Rare exceptions don't reverse the widely-known truth that the 80's didn't have spacing - they prove it.. There simply isn't a counterargument to the claim that spacing makes the game easier - obviously, it's not a valid counterargument to say "well, the 80's were spaced too".





Again, it was done SPARINGLY, at least based on my limited memory.


Here's the problem you guys have when comparing how hard it was to score in different eras - you assume that new defensive schemes in today's game make it harder to score than previous eras, period... This view doesn't consider spacing at all, even though the presence of spacing impacts what defensive schemes are NEEDED to have an effective defense... For example, we know that today's weakside spacing necessitates strongside flooding... (this even sounds as correct and intuitive as it actually is).

(btw, some people argue that the strongside flood came FIRST, and spacing was a response to combat the new flooding technique.. This makes no sense - not only have high volumes of 3-pointers been around for many years, but the strongside flood is only necessary when there are actual defenders on the weakside to flood over, which doesn't occur without weakside spacing)

If new defensive schemes made it harder to score, league-wide ORtg would plummet - but it hasn't - it's remained between 105-108 since the inception of the 3-point line, and it was at 108 as recently as 2011.. I've said it for years - if you put NBA-caliber players on a basketball court, they will play a certain caliber of defense that remains pretty consistent regardless of continuing regulatory changes and playing adjustments on both sides of the ball - this is why we don't see material changes in league-wide ORtg over the years.

[Svendiggity]

get out of this thread you scrub