Lebron's weak first step makes his postgame moves slower and less explosive

[JohnMax]

gilbert arenas (https://instagram.com/p/5vjAp4PPwB/)

James is more like a train then a cheetah in movement.. his first 2 steps aren't very powerful so this hurt him on iso's and the ability to blow pass players from standstill position.

andgar923 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11619423#post11619423)

There's fat f*cks out there with quick 1st steps. I've seen the slowest unathletic old guys beat people with their first step consistently.

1st step is different than speed as noted by OP.

A good NBA example of a big guy with quick 1st step is Shaq. He used to beat players smaller than him with his first step. Zack Randolph destroys Griffin with quick 1 step moves, I remember Chris Gatling would beat people with quick moves and first steps as well.


http://minus.com/is0ppYV4h9btB.gif
http://i.imgur.com/79c7dOg.png

[STATUTORY]

least graceful "superstar" in isolation in the history of the game. n99a literally backs 3 steps up chooses to drive in one direction then just bullrushes with head down. This is what happens when u got no first step

[ShawkFactory]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:

[Lebron23]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:


TMZ

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:

:roll:

[Trollsmasher]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:
:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:

:roll:

[IMObjective]

Lol, you guys missed the same thread he did 2 days ago?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Lol, you guys missed the same thread he did 2 days ago?
Here it is:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383682

Why exactly do the mods let him do this?

[FKAri]

OP must look up to 3ball.

http://i.imgur.com/jXbcYMR.gif

[Wade's Rings]

Are you quoting members of this forum?? :roll:

:roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

OP must look up to 3ball.

http://i.imgur.com/jXbcYMR.gif

Or is 3ball, repeating the same topics and excessive gif usage are pretty dead giveaways...

[3ball]

Wow, what kind of move was Lebron attemting there.. Look like a mismash of confused footwork and plodding.. Looked like he had lead weights around his ankles.
.

[LoneyROY7]

Moar first steps. MOOOAAARRRR.

[Dr Hawk]

Jordan is 434334343432423 times better than LeBron

[3ball]

gilbert arenas (https://instagram.com/p/5vjAp4PPwB/)

andgar923 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11619423#post11619423)

http://minus.com/is0ppYV4h9btB.gif
http://i.imgur.com/79c7dOg.png



^^^^ I'm not sure what post move Lebron is attempting there... Maybe this one??.. :confusedshrug:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif


Lebron looks like a snail in comparison..

And his highlight was WITH spacing - the weakside was spaced, so he faced only 1 strongside help defender.. Whereas MJ's highlight was without spacing, so he faced all 4 help defenders on the strongside..

I swear, Lebron would be about 65% of the player if you took away the spacing.

[Trollsmasher]

^^^^ I'm not sure what post move Lebron is attempting there... Maybe this one??.. :confusedshrug:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif


Lebron looks like a snail in comparison..

And his highlight was WITH spacing - the weakside was spaced, so he faced only 1 strongside help defender.. Whereas MJ's highlight was without spacing, so he faced all 4 help defenders on the strongside..

I swear, Lebron would be about 65% of the player if you took away the spacing.
that defense:roll:

dudes don't even move... LeBron would average 40 in this enviroment EASILY

[AirFederer]

^^^^ I'm not sure what post move Lebron is attempting there... Maybe this one??.. :confusedshrug:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif


Lebron looks like a snail in comparison..

And his highlight was WITH spacing - the weakside was spaced, so he faced only 1 strongside help defender.. Whereas MJ's highlight was without spacing, so he faced all 4 help defenders on the strongside..

I swear, Lebron would be about 65% of the player if you took away the spacing.

Everything that man did on court was alpha as fvck, in lack of other words. Swag!

[OldSchoolBBall]

that defense:roll:

dudes don't even move... LeBron would average 40 in this enviroment EASILY

You're trolling (no shock). Jordan catches the ball and IMMEDIATELY makes a hard move, making the defense react to him and getting into the seam. Then he elevates and contorts to seal off the next defender in the air. The defense was fine - he just made it look bad. He'd do the exact same thing today - hell, he was doing it at times at age 40 in a better defensive league than today.

Two plays from his Wizards years where he similarly makes it look like the defense "isn't even moving":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw#t=4m06s

EDIT: There's another play vs. Ruben Patterson and the Blazers, but I can't find it now.

[Trollsmasher]

You're trolling (no shock). Jordan catches the ball and IMMEDIATELY makes a hard move, making the defense react to him and getting into the seam. Then he elevates and contorts to seal off the next defender in the air. The defense was fine - he just made it look bad. He'd do the exact same thing today - hell, he was doing it at times at age 40 in a better defensive league than today.

Two plays from his Wizards years where he similarly makes it look like the defense "isn't even moving":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw#t=4m06s

EDIT: There's another play vs. Ruben Patterson and the Blazers, but I can't find it now.
that's something that's not going to happen in today's league

in today's advanced schemes, defense would be there, predicting his move and he would be the one making a reaction to it

[guy]

that's something that's not going to happen in today's league

in today's advanced schemes, defense would be there, predicting his move and he would be the one making a reaction to it

Easier said then done :oldlol:

In both plays, Jordan is reacting to what the defense are giving him and then forcing them to counter react. He can do that better then Lebron due to his quicker first step, greater offensive arsenal, and the fact that he's less likely to just pound the ball aimlessly. That's what makes him more unpredictable for defenses to react to. Has nothing to do with the defenses themselves. Those are not plays Lebron is capable of making on a regular basis. You don't need to see him play other era defenses to come to that conclusion.

[OldSchoolBBall]

that's something that's not going to happen in today's league

in today's advanced schemes, defense would be there, predicting his move and he would be the one making a reaction to it

lol You're kidding yourself. That only happens to people like Lebron because he pounds the ball for so long looking for openings.

[3ball]

in today's advanced schemes, defense would be there, predicting his move and he would be the one making a reaction to it


By advanced schemes, do you mean today's weakside spacing that leaves the strongside with less defenders?

Or do you mean advanced schemes to that are necessary to COMPENSATE for the spacing and resulting lesser number of strongside defenders?

Pretty sure you mean the latter.
.

[warriorfan]

that defense:roll:

dudes don't even move... LeBron would average 40 in this enviroment EASILY

LeBron ppg is going to raise 10+ points with less spacing and more physical defense?




:milton

[Kvnzhangyay]

LeBron ppg is going to raise 10+ points with less spacing and more physical defense?




:milton

He would definitely get fouled more

[Trollsmasher]

LeBron ppg is going to raise 10+ points with less spacing and more physical defense?




:milton
physical defense never had any effect on LeBron, he in fact relishes it

what gives him fits is an intelligent defense

However, defensive IQ in the pre '00s era was like that of Uganda when compared to the South Korea that it became from '00s onward

less spacing is a myth

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ziDwNq0XFI&ab_channel=VladimirNaskovski

Kenny talks about Zach's 'quickness'

[3ball]

physical defense never had any effect on LeBron, he in fact relishes it


The higher level of physicality in previous eras would wear him down much quicker.

We know he already has major stamina problems - it's an excuse he's used MANY times to explain losses.

Of course, we all remember Game 1 of 2014 Finals and Game 4 of 2015 Finals, where being "gassed" and cramping up HURT his team.





what gives him fits is an intelligent defense (and if his bread-and-butter drive-and-kick was taken away)


That's what you forget - drive-and-kick for 3-pointers is a MODERN INVENTION.

Guys didn't shoot 3's in 1985, so there was no one to kick to.

Of course, drive-and-kick for 2-pointers occurred sometimes - but there was no spacing, and the lower efficiency on drive-and-kick 2-pointers (compared to 3-pointers) is why they didn't occur much back then - posting and cutting off-ball was the more preferred, standard methods of scoring 2-pointers..

No drive-and-kick for 3-pointers would be a problem for Lebron, since that's his bread-and-butter, while posting and off-ball are his literally his weakest areas.
.

[Indian guy]

I equate "post game" with playing with your back to the basket, so I don't understand what your first step has to do with posting up. LeBron's ordinary first step is much more detrimental to his game when he's out on the perimeter, facing up.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

what gives him fits is an intelligent defense



CHUCK DALY:

"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s



Otoh, defenses on Lebron actually take the opposite approach: rather than expend all their energy trying to stop him, they ALLOW him to repeatedly shoot wide open (2013) and isolate without double teams (2015).

Both times the opponent was exploiting Lebron's poor efficiency by allowing him to take shots over and over that were low percentage for him (jumpshots and isolations).
.

[G-train]

Why do people expect Lebron to be perfect?
Nitpicking at the best player in the world.... not sure how anyone can ask more of him at this point.
Thought all this ended with the titles and clutch play, the MVPs werent enough initially.

[Sarcastic]

I wonder if the weak first step has anything to do with him having 6 toes.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226380

[Kvnzhangyay]

CHUCK DALY:

"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s



Otoh, defenses on Lebron actually take the opposite approach: rather than expend all their energy trying to stop him, they ALLOW him to shoot wide open (2013) and isolate repeatedly without double teams (2015)...

Both times the opponent was exploiting Lebron's poor efficiency by allowing him to take shots over and over that were low percentage for him (jumpshots and isolations).
.

And such the defense is intelligent :biggums:

By isolating, the chances of being called for a foul is exponentially lower

[3ball]

And such the defense is intelligent :biggums:

By isolating, the chances of being called for a foul is exponentially lower
It's not intelligent defense to let someone shoot wide open or isolate repeatedly without double-teaming..

These were GIMMICKS that worked on Lebron because his poor shooting efficiency and isolation FG% made him expoitable enough that gimmicks could work and were the optimal thing to do.

It's funny - I actually found an instance where the Bulls isolated Jordan and put ALL FOUR TEAMMATES behind the 3-point line.. You could see the looks on the defense's faces (1992 Knicks in playoffs) - it looked so dangerous to see MJ all alone on an island, that he was instantly triple-teamed - the defense was like "oh HEELLLLL no".

Like, without any hesitation, it was a no-brainer - no way they would EVER let him isolate so blatantly like that.. There was a poster on ish who looked at a bunch of games and determined that MJ was like 55% on isolations or something ridiculous (Lebron shot 33% on his many isolations in the 2015 playoffs).
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

It's not intelligent defense to let someone shoot wide open over and over.. It's not intelligent defense to let someone isolate repeatedly without double-teaming..

These are GIMMICKS that worked on Lebron because his poor shooting efficiency and isolation FG% made him THAT expoitable, that a gimmick would work and was the optimal thing to do.

It's funny - I actually found an instance where the Bulls isolated Jordan and put ALL FOUR TEAMMATES behind the 3-point line.. It was the first time the defense had seen such a setup, and you could see the looks on their face (1992 Knicks in playoffs) - it looked so dangerous to see MJ all alone on an island with a single defender, that he was INSTANTLY triple-teamed - the defense was like "oh HEELLLLL no".

Like, without any hesitation, it was a no-brainer - no way they would EVER let him isolate like that.... You just don't leave MJ all alone on an island... There was a poster earlier who looked at a bunch of games and determined that MJ was like 60% on isolations or something ridiculous (Lebron shot 33% on all his isolations in the 2015 playoffs).
.

And as such it IS an intelligent defense, especially how this year Lebron was an unusually bad shooter, as proved by the drop in his 3 point field goal %. (Lebron shot 5.4 3pointers a game last year in the finals at 51.9%, while this year shot 7 a game at 31%) Why not take advantage of it, just as how the Pistons took advantage of how young Jordan was not a willing passer?

Also, being "instantly" tripled teamed makes scoring actually easier, as since it didn't happen until he caught the ball, the movement of the triple team towards the player gives them forward momentum, making them unable to prevent a drive as they would have had they stayed put. Another example of a simple defensive scheme

[3ball]

as such it IS an intelligent defense


It's not intelligent to let a bad shooter shoot - it's a NO BRAINER.

Ditto on letting a bad 1-on-1 player go 1-on-1... It's no different then letting Deandre Jordan shoot FT's via hack-a-Deandre...

These things are not intelligent defense - they're gimmicks that only work if players are sufficiently bad at something (i.e. Deandre's FTs, Lebron's shooting, Lebron's 1-on-1 ability).





being "instantly" tripled teamed makes scoring actually easier


For the team, yes... But obviously, not for the guy being triple-teamed.

This is another reason MJ was better - he got double and triple-teamed more than any player ever, which made it easier for his TEAM to score.
.

[ShawkFactory]

Well this thread sucks now

[3ball]

just as how the Pistons took advantage of how young Jordan was not a willing passer?


The Pistons double-teamed MJ because he was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen and his teammates were garbage - these are facts and well-documented.

So why try to change the story 25 years later by saying he wasn't a willing passer??... He averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs and Finals thru his first 3-peat (thru 30 years old, the same age Lebron is now) - so your statement that he was doubled because he wasn't a willing passer, holds no truth compared to him being the goat scorer and having bad teammates.

However, this isn't as bad as your previous attempt to rewrite history.. Remember that?.. You guys tried to counter my claim about today's spacing and weakside spacing, by citing rare exceptions to say the 80's ALSO had spacing..

But everyone knows the 80's didn't have spacing or weakside spacing - this truth isn't reversed by rare exceptions, it's proven by them.

[Kvnzhangyay]

The Pistons double-teamed MJ because he was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen and his teammates were garbage - these are facts and well-documented.

So why try to change the story 25 years later by saying he wasn't a willing passer??... He averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs and Finals thru his first 3-peat (thru 30 years old, the same age Lebron is now) - so your statement that he was doubled because he wasn't a willing passer, holds no truth compared to him being the goat scorer and having bad teammates.

However, this isn't as bad as your previous attempt to rewrite history.. Remember that?.. You guys tried to counter my claim about today's spacing and weakside spacing, by citing rare exceptions to say the 80's ALSO had spacing..

But everyone knows the 80's didn't have spacing or weakside spacing - this truth isn't reversed by rare exceptions, it's proven by them.

You, my friend, are the one changing the story. Actually, it's not changing the story if you weren't alive back then, sorry. It's that you learned wrong.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[G-train]

When people try to meticulously compare the NBA between the late 80's/early 90's and 2010's, I know they haven't grasped NBA basketball.

[Prometheus]

3ball how tall are you?

[3ball]

3ball how tall are you?
6'7" 220

with larry bird-sized hands

[Prometheus]

6'7" 220

with larry bird-sized hands

:lol

Lucky bastard.

[3ball]

:lol

Lucky bastard.
My luck's running out... I'm 38 now - the taller you are, easier it is to LOOK old imo.

I'll look like Mobley pretty soon here :lol

[Prometheus]

My luck's running out... I'm 38 now - the taller you are, easier it is to LOOK old imo.

I'll look like Mobley pretty soon here :lol

Meh. I'm not great at basketball, but I'm pretty good. If I were 6'7", with otherwise the same physical tools, I might have been able to play at a very competitive level.

It's why I hate basketball, despite how much I love it. I'm 5'8", and therefore never had a chance.

But I don't look like a freak in public, so that's pretty cool.

[3ball]

You, my friend, are the one changing the story.


You're looking at a few quotes that say "MJ didn't trust his teammates".

That's true, but that's not why he was doubled - and the quotes you're reading never said that's why he was doubled - you made that part up.

But there are many quotes that actually DO say why he was doubled - and they all say it's because he was the greatest scorer of all time.. And any talk of him not wanting to pass was prefaced by mentioning how bad and undeveloped his young teammates were.

But keep deluding yourself and making things out of quotes that aren't there.. You'll continue to surprised by what happens in basketball and the end results, because you were misperceiving things from the start.





...Jordan was not a willing passer (he should've passed more)


It's funny... The only counter-argument MJ haters have about the player who did more than any other player is "why didn't he do more?"

MJ did the most with what he was given - there isn't a SINGLE year in his career where his team underachieved their seeding.. In 1989, he took a 6-seed to 6 games in ECF with the champs, and he ALWAYS won the championship when his team had the 1 seed in the conference (compare that to Lebron, who has lost 3 times with the 1 seed).





if you weren't alive back then, sorry.


I'm 38... I still dunk on guys (albiet, mostly off one leg now - that's how I know it's easier than jumping off two.. And that's how I notice that other players who start one-foot dunking more as they age)...

Also, I played for two D1 schools and against many NBA players... Otoh, I bet you dribble by slapping the ball like a beginner that plays once a year with their little sister.
.

[3ball]

But I don't look like a freak in public, so that's pretty cool.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

very nice... unfortunately, i can't say the same

(hilarious... will rep when i can)

[G-train]

3ball is not 6'7, he is 6'2 and 1/2

[FKAri]

3ball is not 6'7, he is 6'2 and 1/2

:oldlol:

[kamil]

least graceful "superstar" in isolation in the history of the game. n99a literally backs 3 steps up chooses to drive in one direction then just bullrushes with head down. This is what happens when u got no first step

THIS.

[CTbasketball92]

You're trolling (no shock). Jordan catches the ball and IMMEDIATELY makes a hard move, making the defense react to him and getting into the seam. Then he elevates and contorts to seal off the next defender in the air. The defense was fine - he just made it look bad. He'd do the exact same thing today - hell, he was doing it at times at age 40 in a better defensive league than today.

Two plays from his Wizards years where he similarly makes it look like the defense "isn't even moving":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw#t=4m06s

EDIT: There's another play vs. Ruben Patterson and the Blazers, but I can't find it now.

What people said about MJ's fluidity and zero wasted movement is so true. He just fakes one way and goes the quickest path to the basket like a running back bursting through a seam. He's 40 years old, but honestly looked quicker than most SG's by far. That burst at age 40 is unbelievable. MJ really is the GOAT

[kamil]

that defense:roll:

dudes don't even move... LeBron would average 40 in this enviroment EASILY

that damage control :roll: