Julius Erving's 1976 Finals is the greatest Finals performance of all time

[warriorfan]

37.7 ppg / 14.2 reb / 6 ast / 3 stl / 2.2 blk on 59% FG%, 66% TS%

No player has ever mixed the scoring, rebounding, playmaking, defensive play, and efficiency that Dr J showed over that 6 game series.

Dr J also did it vs Denver who were the best defensive team in the league. They were also the best defensive team in the league the next year in 1977 as well. He was covered by Bobby Jones, best defensive player of his time.

Dr J's 1976 Finals is the GOAT.

[Marchesk]

http://media.giphy.com/media/a0Lgc1JvbfS4o/giphy.gif

[sundizz]

37.7 ppg / 14.2 reb / 6 ast / 3 stl / 2.2 blk on 59% FG%, 66% TS%

No player has ever mixed the scoring, rebounding, playmaking, defensive play, and efficiency that Dr J showed over that 6 game series.

Dr J also did it vs Denver who were the best defensive team in the league. They were also the best defensive team in the league the next year in 1977 as well. He was covered by Bobby Jones, best defensive player of his time.

Dr J's 1976 Finals is the GOAT.

I agree, but disagree. Weren't there only 9 teams? The leagues of today and at that time just can't be compared. Same reason none of Wilt and Russell's stats/chips etc mean anything. They should be viewed in a vacuum. In 2015, NOBODY is putting up over 40 ppg. Closest could be the hybrid guard big man of Anthony Davis if he were chuck happy like Wilt.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Too bad he never did that in the nba finals

[Marchesk]

Closest could be the hybrid guard big man of Anthony Davis if he were chuck happy like Wilt.

Chucking cut-off is 45%.

[kennethgriffin]

Didnt he choke like a bitch in the last game though


I remember erving finishing the game with like 3 or 4 huge **** ups

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not the greatest ever, but one of the greatest. I understand your point about the Nuggets being the #1 defense, but they were never championship material in the NBA. The ABA isn't the NBA which was and will forever be more legit.

But yeah, Dr J. in the 70's was an absolute behemoth.

[Marchesk]

Too bad he never did that in the nba finals

He did dunk on Walton, though.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/347ecd6d270159cc6b6e5a00dda1aec9/tumblr_mo7pijtO9v1s9qyxvo1_400.gif

[warriorfan]

I agree, but disagree. Weren't there only 9 teams? The leagues of today and at that time just can't be compared. Same reason none of Wilt and Russell's stats/chips etc mean anything. They should be viewed in a vacuum. In 2015, NOBODY is putting up over 40 ppg. Closest could be the hybrid guard big man of Anthony Davis if he were chuck happy like Wilt.

I agree but disagree as well. I agree that no one is going to be putting up 40 ppg, there was pace factors that inflated Dr J's stats during that series when compared to today's basketball. The thing is, even if you adjust the stats down they are still immense and dominant in literally every single category.

About the 9 teams.

Yes there were 9 teams but if the Nuggets who were the best team had the best defense in the NBA the following year....

That means Dr J put up those stats vs the best defending team in the world.

[Hey Yo]

He did dunk on Walton, though.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/347ecd6d270159cc6b6e5a00dda1aec9/tumblr_mo7pijtO9v1s9qyxvo1_400.gif
Nice clip.....thanks :rockon:

[Dr.J4ever]

In the early 70s, the NBA, ABA, and CBS agreed that they would work towards a Superbowl type NFL vs. AFL scenario. It never happened because of bad blood between competing businesses.

How I wish the 1976 NY Nets could have played the 1976 NBA Champion Celtics in a grand final. Doc vs the older Havlicek and Jojo White who won a title against a pretty weak Suns team.

Had Erving and the Nets put on a show(I believe they would have won), how history would be different today. Doc would be the Goat SF, and that era of basketball would be looked at completely differently.

[AnaheimLakers24]

No its not

[lilteapot]

OP is a pathetic player fan. Not a real Warriors fan

[SHAQisGOAT]

Not the GREATEST but certainly one of the greatest...
People don't pay much regard to it though; like you've said the Nuggets were one of the best teams in the NBA in the following year (1977) with the #1 ranked defense, and they had one of the GOAT defenders in Bobby Jones, also a great athlete.


I've seen a couple of games from those Finals...

-Larry Brown's fast-tempo approach made the Nuggets play right into Dr J's hands

-Julius made/had the "right thing" vs a defender like Bobby Jones, which was being physical af, and trying to kill him on the boards

-Bobby's one of the best and most versatile defensive players ever, and the right player for Denver to have on Doc but he was also the Nuggets best/main paint-protector and shot-blocker (Marvin Webster didn't play much)... So, that was still somewhat detrimental for the Nuggets because Julius was great without the ball and when Jones was playing ball-denial down-low, Nets' players were making some great entry passes while Denver had no good shot-blocker left to help out and protect the rim, with the Doc was feasting inside... However if they didn't put Bobby on Erving in the 1st place, they were also screwed anyways

-When smaller David Thompson was put on Erving? Game-over

-The Dr's off-ball defense is one of the best ever and was at full display there, allowing for them/him to score lots of fastbreak points

-Doc was also playmaking pretty well, keeping them on their toes

[And1AllDay]

ESPN actually created a list

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf1yj4.png

[warriorfan]

ESPN actually created a list

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf1yj4.png

That list sucks

[warriorfan]

Not the GREATEST but certainly one of the greatest...
People don't pay much regard to it though; like you've said the Nuggets were one of the best teams in the NBA in the following year (1977) with the #1 ranked defense, and they had one of the GOAT defenders in Bobby Jones, also a great athlete.


I've seen a couple of games from those Finals...

-Larry Brown's fast-tempo approach made the Nuggets play right into Dr J's hands

-Julius made/had the "right thing" vs a defender like Bobby Jones, which was being physical af, and trying to kill him on the boards

-Bobby's one of the best and most versatile defensive players ever, and the right player for Denver to have on Doc but he was also the Nuggets best/main paint-protector and shot-blocker (Marvin Webster didn't play much)... So, that was still somewhat detrimental for the Nuggets because Julius was great without the ball and when Jones was playing ball-denial down-low, Nets' players were making some great entry passes while Denver had no good shot-blocker left to help out and protect the rim, with the Doc was feasting inside... However if they didn't put Bobby on Erving in the 1st place, they were also screwed anyways

-When smaller David Thompson was put on Erving? Game-over

-The Dr's off-ball defense is one of the best ever and was at full display there, allowing for them/him to score lots of fastbreak points

-Doc was also playmaking pretty well, keeping them on their toes


Good post.

[ClipperRevival]

Hard for me to give it full credit given it was the ABA. But no doubt an amazing finals.

For my money, give me MJ's 1991 finals:

31.2 ppg / .558 fg% / 11.6 apg / 6.6 rpg / 2.8 spg / 1.4 bpg

Of course there are other great performances too. I just prefer the all around impact MJ had in 1991.

[SHAQisGOAT]

BTW, Julius also had a great Finals series in the following year (1977), in the NBA...

30.3 / 6.8 / 5.0 / 2.7 / 1.2
.543 FG% / .857 FT%

You can check out some of those games too, he was playing extremely well...
With the exception of Doug Collins, most of his teammates played like shit though, especially McGinnis - one of the league's best forwards - who was just awful.
Philly lost against a better T-E-A-M.

And ofc that the NBA was different than the ABA; less run-n-gun, more physicality, more defensively driven at the time, no 3pt-line then so less spacing...

Doc still more than proved his worth in the NBA though, in many ways...
And while I agree that the ABA was an inferior league, it still had some great players/teams, and what Erving did there shouldn't be disregarded or even close to it, especially stuff like those 1976 Finals.

Plus, when Julius made the transition to the NBA, he had to sacrifice his personal play, because the team was filled with (iso) scorers, shot-creators and ball-stoppers, with coach Shue running that strategy of players creating for themselves and others instead of keeping the ball moving around more - with the players/talent they had, you could say it was better that way though...
And the team still had success that year despite everything, they immediately made the Finals with the Dr having a great Playoff run.

[SHAQisGOAT]

ESPN actually created a list

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf1yj4.png

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ShawkFactory]

BTW, Julius also had a great Finals series in the following year (1977), in the NBA...

30.3 / 6.8 / 5.0 / 2.7 / 1.2
.543 FG% / .857 FT%

You can check out some of those games too, he was playing extremely well...
With the exception of Doug Collins, most of his teammates played like shit though, especially McGinnis - one of the league's best forwards - who was just awful.
Philly lost against a better T-E-A-M.

And ofc that the NBA was different than the ABA; less run-n-gun, more physicality, more defensively driven at the time, no 3pt-line then so less spacing...

Doc still more than proved his worth in the NBA though, in many ways...
And while I agree that the ABA was an inferior league, it still had some great players/teams, and what Erving did there shouldn't be disregarded or even close to it, especially stuff like those 1976 Finals.

Plus, when Julius made the transition to the NBA, he had to sacrifice his personal play, because the team was filled with (iso) scorers, shot-creators and ball-stoppers, with coach Shue running that strategy of players creating for themselves and others instead of keeping the ball moving around more - with the players/talent they had, you could say it was better that way though...
And the team still had success that year despite everything, they immediately made the Finals with the Dr having a great Playoff run.
On the low..you're one of the top 2-3 posters on this forum. Keep bring the logic to us :applause:

[Wade's Rings]

ESPN actually created a list

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf1yj4.png

D-GOAT :bowdown:

Honestly ranking them by PER is :facepalm

[Wade's Rings]

Hard for me to give it full credit given it was the ABA. But no doubt an amazing finals.

For my money, give me MJ's 1991 finals:

31.2 ppg / .558 fg% / 11.6 apg / 6.6 rpg / 2.8 spg / 1.4 bpg

Of course there are other great performances too. I just prefer the all around impact MJ had in 1991.

GOAT :bowdown:

[SHAQisGOAT]

On the low..you're one of the top 2-3 posters on this forum. Keep bring the logic to us :applause:

:cheers:

Thanks, I appreciate that.

[And1AllDay]

D-GOAT :bowdown:

Honestly ranking them by PER is :facepalm

Hard to argue against Wade at the #1 spot though, especially considering Dirk won MVP the next year, and the Mavs were up in the series before Wade made a huge comeback.

35-8-4 on 47% with the highest PER is NBA Finals history...Not bad

[warriorfan]

Hard to argue against Wade at the #1 spot though, especially considering Dirk won MVP the next year, and the Mavs were up in the series before Wade made a huge comeback.

35-8-4 on 47% with the highest PER is NBA Finals history...Not bad

That Dallas team wasn't very good on the defensive side, especially when it came to defending the Wing. That plus some dubious officiating and you have found the true reason for Wade's '06 Final numbers.

[ClipperRevival]

Hard to argue against Wade at the #1 spot though, especially considering Dirk won MVP the next year, and the Mavs were up in the series before Wade made a huge comeback.

35-8-4 on 47% with the highest PER is NBA Finals history...Not bad

Not to take anything away from Wade but he shot 16+ fts in that series per game. Sure, he earned some of it but that's lot of free points.

MJ never came remotely close to that many ft attempts per game in any of his finals. Even in 1993, when he averaged 41.0 ppg, he shot less than 9 fts per game while shooting .508% from the field along with 8.5 rpg and 6.3 apg.

[ClipperRevival]

And the thing about MJ and his finals career scoring avg of 33.6 is that his teams needed those points. Like in 1993, if he didn't average 41 per game, they might not win that series because the Suns were a noticeably deeper team. And for MJ to carry that much of a load and still dominate and be efficient is a testament to his greatness. He imposed his will on the game unlike anyone I have ever seen, including bigs.

[sportjames23]

And the thing about MJ and his finals career scoring avg of 33.6 is that his teams needed those points. Like in 1993, if he didn't average 41 per game, they might not win that series because the Suns were a noticeably deeper team. And for MJ to carry that much of a load and still dominate and be efficient is a testament to his greatness. He imposed his will on the game unlike anyone I have ever seen, including bigs.


As an MJ fan, that is what impressed me the most about him.

[ClipperRevival]

As an MJ fan, that is what impressed me the most about him.

And that's what greatness is. Bball is a game where one player can literally impose his will on the game. The more you impact the game, the greater you are as a player.

Just look at the final 30 seconds of the 1998 finals. His team is down 1 in game 6 and he steals the ball on the defensive end and scores on the offensive end. They lose that game, game 7 is in Utah. But he never let it get to that point.

I laugh when people say it's a team game. Sure you need some help. But truly dominant players can impose their will on the game and affect the outcome of games. MJ is the most alpha killer ever and it's not even close. :bowdown:

[Pointguard]

He did dunk on Walton, though.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/347ecd6d270159cc6b6e5a00dda1aec9/tumblr_mo7pijtO9v1s9qyxvo1_400.gif
Gotta love Walton's follow through on that facial.

[Pointguard]

That means Dr J put up those stats vs the best defending team in the world.
And the best one on one defender in the world on him. I think Rick Barry decimated the NBA that year in the finals as well. Year of the Small Forward. The defense in the NBA those two years wasn't at some high level.

[kennethgriffin]

ESPN actually created a list

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf1yj4.png

how is 36/12/4 on 59% better than 38/17/2 on 61%... per never made any sense to anyone except hollinger

duncan being ahead of either is stupid aswell

theyre obviously giving entirely too much credit for having even just 1 or 2 more assists

[Dr.J4ever]

If you look at an NBA ONLY list, this Finals performance won't even be included in the record books, and that's is just an outrage. It seems to me that the key question to be answered about how great this Finals performance really was and to the general question on how high up the rankings does Julius rise up has to do with how strong the ABA really was.

Just to add to the discussion, here is a little snippet from the website, "Remember the ABA.com", and from the section FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS.

"1.8 Was the ABA as good as the NBA?

Certainly not at first, although many early ABA players could easily have played in the NBA (Doug Moe, Roger Brown, Connie Hawkins, Larry Brown, and Mel Daniels come to mind). Near the end of the ABA's existence, however, ABA teams were generally just as good (if not better) than NBA teams. The reason for this was that the ABA never had any qualms about signing players before they had finished their college careers. Therefore, the ABA was able to sign such players as George McGinnis (Indiana), Spencer Haywood (Denver), Ralph Simpson (Denver), Julius Erving (Virginia), and Maurice Lucas (St. Louis-Kentucky). In the mid-1970's, the overall talent in the ABA was probably younger and better than the NBA. In the first NBA All-Star game after the ABA folded, 10 out of the 24 players were former ABA players and an ABA player (Julius Erving) won the MVP award.

1.9 Did ABA teams ever play NBA teams?

Yes, but only in exhibition season games. ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were first played in 1971. They continued through 1975. During the first two years of exhibition play, the NBA dominated: the NBA won 42 games, and the ABA won only 17. During each of the next three years, the ABA won the battle, 15-10, 16-7, and finally 31-17 in 1975. Overall the ABA won the rivalry, 79-76.

The Nets and the Knicks had a healthy exhibition rivalry in New York. Interestingly, the Boston Celtics always had trouble beating ABA teams. Over the years, Boston continually lost games to the Nets, the Cougars, and the Nuggets.

During the years when the Milwaukee Bucks had Lew Alcindor and won the NBA Championship, they played a number of ABA teams in exhibition games, including the Virginia Squires, the Pittsburgh Condors, the Dallas Chaparrals, the Denver Rockets, the Utah Stars, the Indiana Pacers, and the Kentucky Colonels. These various ABA teams wanted their fans to view the ABA as "major league," and were willing to pay the Bucks serious money to play in ABA arenas.

1.10 How did ABA play differ from NBA play?

Basketball purists will tell you that the ABA played a more "unscripted" style of basketball. The ABA displayed more running, wide open offenses with less physical defenses. In comparison, the NBA used the more traditional pick and roll, cut and screen, grab and hold style of play. The lanes in the ABA tended to be less clogged because defenses had to respect the threat of the 3-point basket. Shorter guards, like Larry Brown and Mack Calvin, flourished in the ABA's wide open game."

Hmm, the ABA ACTUALLY DOMINATED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS OF INTER LEAGUE COMPETITION. These weren't ordinary exhibitions. They were described as "intense" and players were thrown out with star players playing major minutes..We have a record of top scorers from each game and you will see the top stars getting the most minutes and producing the most points etc..

Imagine if you were the superior league, and you were getting your butt kicked in by the up and coming league, won't you try to show your superiority enough in these games? And yet the NBA lost CONVINCINGLY in the last few years of the rivalry.

Something to ponder. What if pro-basketball was a more popular sport during the 70s, and a Donald Trump or whoever financed the ABA to go full head with the NBA? Hmmm.

[kshutts1]

And that's what greatness is. Bball is a game where one player can literally impose his will on the game. The more you impact the game, the greater you are as a player.

Just look at the final 30 seconds of the 1998 finals. His team is down 1 in game 6 and he steals the ball on the defensive end and scores on the offensive end. They lose that game, game 7 is in Utah. But he never let it get to that point.

I laugh when people say it's a team game. Sure you need some help. But truly dominant players can impose their will on the game and affect the outcome of games. MJ is the most alpha killer ever and it's not even close. :bowdown:
Pretty sure G7 would have been in Chicago. MJ definitely offensively fouled Russell in Utah.

And the help one needs is relative to competition. If one is playing in an expansion, semi-diluted era, then one needs less help than in a stacked-with-HOFs era.

[ClipperRevival]

Pretty sure G7 would have been in Chicago. MJ definitely offensively fouled Russell in Utah.

And the help one needs is relative to competition. If one is playing in an expansion, semi-diluted era, then one needs less help than in a stacked-with-HOFs era.

Utah had HCA in 1998. Game 7 would've been in Utah.

[kshutts1]

Utah had HCA in 1998. Game 7 would've been in Utah.
I stand corrected. Thanks. So was that a 2-3-2 Finals format? Is that why I was confused?

Edit: I know how to use Google. Yes, it was 2-3-2.

[Gotterdammerung]

On the low..you're one of the top 2-3 posters on this forum. Keep bring the logic to us :applause:
Word. :bowdown:

Now if only ISH had 10 times as many legit posters like him to offset the stans and trolls... But then again if wishes were fishes the world would be an ocean. :oldlol:

[Lakers Legend#32]

For the Blazers, all for one beat one for all.

[aj1987]

Not to take anything away from Wade but he shot 16+ fts in that series per game. Sure, he earned some of it but that's lot of free points.

MJ never came remotely close to that many ft attempts per game in any of his finals. Even in 1993, when he averaged 41.0 ppg, he shot less than 9 fts per game while shooting .508% from the field along with 8.5 rpg and 6.3 apg.
Didn't MJ average 12 FT's a game in '98?

OP, Shaq and MJ had a couple of Finals which are better than Dr. J's.

[warriorfan]

Didn't MJ average 12 FT's a game in '98?

OP, Shaq and MJ had a couple of Finals which are better than Dr. J's.

12 does not equal 16...



Dr. J's 1976 Finals is the greatest, no one had the 2 way impact Dr. J did, including Shaq and MJ. When did Shaq and MJ lead their team in every major statistical category vs the best defense in the world? While being covered by the best defender in the world?

[ClipperRevival]

Didn't MJ average 12 FT's a game in '98?

OP, Shaq and MJ had a couple of Finals which are better than Dr. J's.

11.6 to be exact. So Wade had 4.5 more fts per game.

[CavaliersFTW]

I disagree. Great Finals, but others have had as good or better.

[CavaliersFTW]

12 does not equal 16...



Dr. J's 1976 Finals is the greatest, no one had the 2 way impact Dr. J did, including Shaq and MJ. When did Shaq and MJ lead their team in every major statistical category vs the best defense in the world? While being covered by the best defender in the world?
Elgin and West have done similar things in the Finals, with even higher points and rebounds and/or assists and steals. And guys like Bill Russell have done far more impactful things defensively while still scoring at an impressive rate.

You are splitting hairs trying to suggest Doc's is clearly superior to everyone else's all time. It was a great finals. But not undisputably the best ever.

[aj1987]

11.6 to be exact. So Wade had 4.5 more fts per game.
Yeah, but you have to account of the rules change, which helped players get more FT's. Even Drik averaged pretty close to what Wade averaged (over the entire PO's) on fewer FG's.



Dr. J's 1976 Finals is the greatest, no one had the 2 way impact Dr. J did, including Shaq and MJ. When did Shaq and MJ lead their team in every major statistical category vs the best defense in the world? While being covered by the best defender in the world?
MJ was playing DPOY level defense while putting up those ridiculous stats. Also, he and Shaq were doing in the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Elgin and West have done similar things in the Finals, with even higher points and rebounds and/or assists and steals. And guys like Bill Russell have done far more impactful things defensively while still scoring at an impressive rate.

You are splitting hairs trying to suggest Doc's is clearly superior to everyone else's all time. It was a great finals. But not undisputably the best ever.

Elgin and West did simlar things while playing with each other, similar but not the same.

Has Elgin ever led his team in every statistical category vs the best defense in the world while leading his team to a championship?

Has West ever led his team in every statistical category vs the best defense in the world while leading his team to a championship?

So it looks like you are wrong.


Dr J's 1976 Finals is the greatest Finals performance of all time until you can show me otherwise. Elgin and West do not measure up so I suggest you look towards your boy Wilt or Russell but trust me, you are wasting your time.

[CavaliersFTW]

Elgin and West did simlar things while playing with each other, similar but not the same.

Has Elgin ever led his team in every statistical category vs the best defense in the world while leading his team to a championship?

Has West ever led his team in every statistical category vs the best defense in the world while leading his team to a championship?

So it looks like you are wrong.


Dr J's 1976 Finals is the greatest Finals performance of all time until you can show me otherwise. Elgin and West do not measure up so I suggest you look towards your boy Wilt or Russell but trust me, you are wasting your time.
When Elgin had dominant Finals it overshadowed West, and visa versa they weren't doing it at the same time.

And Julius Erving won the ABA Finals in 1976. It still counts for something, but most people agree the NBA was stronger. Julius Erving didn't do that against the Celtics. And Julius Erving thought John Havlicek was a tougher defensive player against him than Bobby Jones. Again, he had a great series. Hands down the greatest? No, too many other greats are being swept under the rug.

[warriorfan]

When Elgin had dominant Finals it overshadowed West, and visa versa they weren't doing it at the same time.

And Julius Erving won the ABA Finals in 1976. It still counts for something, but most people agree the NBA was stronger. Julius Erving didn't do that against the Celtics. And Julius Erving thought John Havlicek was a tougher defensive player against him than Bobby Jones.

Elgin Baylor for one didn't have better stats than Dr J.

Elgin Baylor for two lost the series.

For three 1976 ABA was stronger than early 1960's NBA.


Try again.

[CavaliersFTW]

Elgin Baylor for one didn't have better stats than Dr J.

Elgin Baylor for two lost the series.

For three 1976 ABA was stronger than early 1960's NBA.


Try again.
This thread is a sinking ship. I don't need to try again.

Elgin Baylor 40.6ppg 17.3rpg 3.6apg

Rick Barry 40.8ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg and probably 2+spg and nearly a block per game

Jerry West 37.9ppg 4.7rpg 7.4apg and probably 2+ spg and 1+bpg

Bill Russell 22.9ppg 27 rpg 5.7apg and probably 5+bpg

Michael Jordan 41ppg 8.5rpg 6.3apg 1.7spg 0.7bpg

Wilt Chamberlain 17.7ppg 28.5ppg 6.8apg and probably 5+ bpg

Shaquille O'Neal 38.0ppg 16.7rpg 2.3apg 1spg 2.7bpg

Hakeem Olajuwon 32.8ppg 11.5rpg 5.5apg 2.0bpg 2.0spg

There have been many players with dominant and/or great all around Finals performances, win or lose. Dr. J's ABA series was great. Stop trying to impose it as the best with none that can match, that isn't true. And worst of all it's an ABA championship you are trying to prop up.

You probably watched the Doc documentary and are obsessing over him now. Sad thing is you don't realize you'd be doing this same thing if a similar doc came out for any one of those other players whom by the way would all also deserve one.

[warriorfan]

This thread is a sinking ship. I don't need to try again.

Elgin Baylor 40.6ppg 17.3rpg 3.6apg

Rick Barry 40.8ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg and probably 2+spg and nearly a block per game

Jerry West 37.9ppg 4.7rpg 7.4apg and probably 2+ spg and 1+bpg

Bill Russell 22.9ppg 27 rpg 5.7apg and probably 5+bpg

Michael Jordan 41ppg 8.5rpg 6.3apg 1.7spg 0.7bpg

Wilt Chamberlain 17.7ppg 28.5ppg 6.8apg and probably 5+ bpg

Shaquille O'Neal 38.0ppg 16.7rpg 2.3apg 1spg 2.7bpg

Hakeem Olajuwon 32.8ppg 11.5rpg 5.5apg 2.0bpg 2.0spg

There have been many players with dominant and/or great all around Finals performances, win or lose. Dr. J's ABA series was great. Stop trying to impose it as the best with none that can match, that isn't true. And worst of all it's an ABA championship you are trying to prop up.

You probably watched the Doc documentary and are obsessing over him now. Sad thing is you don't realize you'd be doing this same thing if a similar doc came out for any one of those other players whom by the way would all also deserve one.


Baylor, shitty percentages, not the playmaker Dr J was, no where near the defender Dr J was, just not the two way player Dr J was

Rick Barry, more scoring but less playmaking, less boards, way less defensive contribution.

Jerry West, Dr J outperforms him in every category besides scoring which they are even

Bill Russell, was no where in Dr J's stratosphere of an offensive player. Dr J had more two way impact

Michael Jordan, edges Dr J in ppg but Dr J annihilates him in every other category.

Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt was insanely inefficient. In 1968 Finals Wilt shot 30% from the line (22-72). This is horrendous and cannot be overlooked. Dr J more than doubled his point totals on twice the efficiency. Did not have the 2 way play of Dr J.

Shaquille O'Neal, put up .3 more points on less efficiently than Dr J. Scoring goes to Dr J. Rebounding goes to Oneal, playmaking goes to Dr J, Dr J gets better overall offense. Dr J had more defensive impact as well.

Hakeem Oajuwon, Hakeem was a great all around player as we all know. Dr J has him beat in literally every single statistical category and was just better all around.


Try again.

[CavaliersFTW]

petulant stammering
There is no need to try again. You're comparing an ABA accolade to players who did work in the superior NBA and you're trying to sell the other guys short. I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you in this thread.

[warriorfan]

There is no need to try again. You're comparing an ABA accolade to players who did work in the superior NBA and you're trying to sell the other guys short. I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you in this thread.

1976 ABA was way better than that early 60's NBA bunk you are always pushing.

You just got roasted in this thread and haven't done anything besides list player's statistics who were worse than Dr J's. Basketball analysis isn't your thing, we get that. Take the L and go comfort yourself by reading some 50 year old newspapers.

[eliteballer]

Other than the fact that ABA was a no defense stat inflated league on the verge of bankruptcy with 9 teams in 1976...


Many argue as to the veracity of ABA stats due to the fact it played a more wide open game than the NBA as well whether it was as strong as the NBA.

Yet even if the NBA was stronger at any given time, it doesnt negate the fact that there was still another league splitting the professional talent pool regardless. Not only was the professional talent pool split between 1968 and 1976, but there was a TREMENDOUS increase in the amount of teams.

In 1968, the NBA had 10 teams. By 1972, it had 17. In 1972, the ABA had 11 teams. So in the 4 year span between 1968 and 1972, the amount of professional teams increased by 18. So not only were the leagues splitting the talent pool and not competing against each other, but in 1972 you had 28 professional teams, and in 1977 the first year after the merger you actually had LESS, with 22.

For perspective, many say the 90's were diluted because 4 teams were added at the end of the 80's and then 2 more teams in 95.

To clarify, we are not comparing the NBA and ABA but we are comparing the period of 1968-1976 to combined NBA pre ABA and post merger.

Rick Barry is a good example of the situation at the time. Not in terms of stats, but the fact that he played 2 years in the NBA, then jumped to the ABA for 4 years, then went back to the NBA.

Now, this doesnt change the fact that guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes etc. weren't great because they were still the best players out there, but whether players would have had the numbers they had, whether teams that were champions would have been champions in a combined league, and whether players would have won as many awards as they did in a combined league is certainly, IMO up for debate. I mean, would Dr J have snatched another MVP or two, some All-NBA teams, or won another championship if he was in the NBA during his ABA years? Obviously, very real possibilities.

So in a 4 year span professional basketball split into two leagues and added a total number of 18 teams.........the definition of dilution.

Educate yourself before making stupid claims.

[warriorfan]

Other than the fact that ABA was a no defense stat inflated league on the verge of bankruptcy with 9 teams in 1976...

Educate yourself before making stupid claims.

Why did the Denver Nuggets of the 1976 ABA have the number 1 ranked defense when they joined the NBA the very next year 1977? :confusedshrug:

I love your last line, pretty ironic. :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

Why did the Denver Nuggets of the 1976 ABA have the number 1 ranked defense when they joined the NBA the very next year 1977? :confusedshrug:

I love your last line, pretty ironic. :oldlol:

They scored 122 a game in the 1976 ABA and allowed 116 a game.

In the NBA they scored 112 a game and allowed 107.

Clearly one league had more inflated stats:roll:

[warriorfan]

They scored 122 a game in the 1976 ABA and allowed 116 a game.

In the NBA they scored 112 a game and allowed 107.

Clearly one league had more inflated stats:roll:

Or clearly one league had superior offensive talent? :eek:

[eliteballer]

Or clearly one league had superior offensive talent? :eek:

Superior offensive talent who's numbers all took a nosedive in the NBA?:roll:

ISHiots in top form these days.

[warriorfan]

Superior offensive talent who's numbers all took a nosedive in the NBA?:roll:

ISHiots in top form these days.


Different rules and no 3 point line.

[Dr.J4ever]

Why did the Denver Nuggets of the 1976 ABA have the number 1 ranked defense when they joined the NBA the very next year 1977? :confusedshrug:

I love your last line, pretty ironic. :oldlol:

Yes, and no one seems to want to explain this....

"Yes, but only in exhibition season games. ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were first played in 1971. They continued through 1975. During the first two years of exhibition play, the NBA dominated: the NBA won 42 games, and the ABA won only 17. During each of the next three years, the ABA won the battle, 15-10, 16-7, and finally 31-17 in 1975. ....."

The ABA had the upper hand in the last few years before the merger.

If you say the NBA didn't take the rivalry seriously, then it would contradict witnesses who say players were thrown out playing very intense ball. We have the minutes and scoring from the all these games.

If the NBA wasn't out to win these games, then why did they dominate the games in the early part?

If they were the superior league, why did the NBA ALLOW ITSELF TO BE DOMINATED THE LAST FEW YEARS BEFORE THE MERGER? If indeed they(NBA) were superior, at a certain point a team would say, " let's teach these guys a lesson", but the ABA won 31-17 in the last year before the merger.

Combine the fact about Denver, and 10 of the 25 All Stars in the 1st season of the merger era coming from the ABA, and that 5 of the 10 starting players in the NBA finals were from the ABA, and I say the ABA clearly shows that at the very least they were a league whose numbers and achievement should count in the grand scheme of things in history.

Imagine Denver was one of the best teams in the 1st year of the merger era, and ERVING'S NY NETS DEFEATED THEM. SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE NY NETS? It clearly means the NY NETS were one of, if not the best team in the world in the mid 70s.

To repeat, the ABA won almost 65% of the 96 games before the merger. 65%!

[Wade's Rings]

That Dallas team wasn't very good on the defensive side, especially when it came to defending the Wing. That plus some dubious officiating and you have found the true reason for Wade's '06 Final numbers.

Wade destroyed Elite Defenses as well :oldlol: 27 pts on 62% shooting vs Detroit, the 5th Best Defense, the Series before. 28 pts on 49% shooting vs the Nets, the 4th Best Defense, in the ECSF.


Not to take anything away from Wade but he shot 16+ fts in that series per game. Sure, he earned some of it but that's lot of free points.

MJ never came remotely close to that many ft attempts per game in any of his finals. Even in 1993, when he averaged 41.0 ppg, he shot less than 9 fts per game while shooting .508% from the field along with 8.5 rpg and 6.3 apg.

Even if you remove every Free Throw Wade made he would've still averaged 23 points. If he shot 10 FTA per Game he would've still put 31 :confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

Yes, and no one seems to want to explain this....

"Yes, but only in exhibition season games. ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were first played in 1971. They continued through 1975. During the first two years of exhibition play, the NBA dominated: the NBA won 42 games, and the ABA won only 17. During each of the next three years, the ABA won the battle, 15-10, 16-7, and finally 31-17 in 1975. ....."

The ABA had the upper hand in the last few years before the merger.

If you say the NBA didn't take the rivalry seriously, then it would contradict witnesses who say players were thrown out playing very intense ball. We have the minutes and scoring from the all these games.

If the NBA wasn't out to win these games, then why did they dominate the games in the early part?

If they were the superior league, why did the NBA ALLOW ITSELF TO BE DOMINATED THE LAST FEW YEARS BEFORE THE MERGER? If indeed they(NBA) were superior, at a certain point a team would say, " let's teach these guys a lesson", but the ABA won 31-17 in the last year before the merger.

Combine the fact about Denver, and 10 of the 25 All Stars in the 1st season of the merger era coming from the ABA, and that 5 of the 10 starting players in the NBA finals were from the ABA, and I say the ABA clearly shows that at the very least they were a league whose numbers and achievement should count in the grand scheme of things in history.

Imagine Denver was one of the best teams in the 1st year of the merger era, and ERVING'S NY NETS DEFEATED THEM. SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE NY NETS? It clearly means the NY NETS were one of, if not the best team in the world in the mid 70s.

To repeat, the ABA won almost 65% of the 96 games before the merger. 65%!

Great post. :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Great post. :applause:You say this because he's the only one in this thread who hasn't taken a shit in it. He's glad Doctor J is getting some love, which is great. But I bet even he wouldn't agree with you shitting on other HOFers great Finals performances that are very much arguably just as dominant as Ervings and/or more depending on criteria. You're one of those fans who hasn't learned how to appreciate any all time greats without accidentally shitting on a bunch of others because you not only don't have a half way decent grasp on the history of the game, but you're also a victim of the Dunning–Kruger effect where you actually don't even fully understand your limitations when speaking about the history of the game so you make reckless claims.

[T_L_P]

how is 36/12/4 on 59% better than 38/17/2 on 61%... per never made any sense to anyone except hollinger

duncan being ahead of either is stupid aswell

theyre obviously giving entirely too much credit for having even just 1 or 2 more assists

Little thing called pace.

The average LAL score in the 02 Finals was 106 PPG.

The average SAS score in the 03 Finals was 85 PPG.

And Hollinger's stat doesn't even include Duncan's GOAT-tier defense.

[warriorfan]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]You say this because he's the only one in this thread who hasn't taken a shit in it. He's glad Doctor J is getting some love, which is great. But I bet even he wouldn't agree with you shitting on other HOFers great Finals performances that are very much arguably just as dominant as Ervings and/or more depending on criteria. You're one of those fans who hasn't learned how to appreciate any all time greats without accidentally shitting on a bunch of others because you not only don't have a half way decent grasp on the history of the game, but you're also a victim of the Dunning

[eliteballer]

Different rules and no 3 point line.

LOL. Let me get this straight.

You say the 1976 ABA finals by Doc are one of the greatest of all time.

Then you admit that numbers were lower in the NBA due to the rules and lack of 3 point line(not to mention people actually tried to play defense).

Basically admitting stats were inflated in the ABA(like Doc putting up those numbers in the Finals against a team that allowed 116 PPG per game). In a league with 9 total teams on the verge of folding.

So doesn't that mean it's NOT one of the greatest Finals ever because of said inflated numbers, and if everyone from the NBA were playing in the ABA they would have inflated numbers too, preventing those numbers from standing out and further showing it's NOT one of the greatest Finals of all time?

Not to mention Doc's own numbers dropped as soon as he entered the NBA, including the 1977 NBA Finals.

Invalidating your silly statement to begin with?:roll:

[warriorfan]

LOL. Let me get this straight.

You say the 1976 ABA finals by Doc are one of the greatest of all time.

Then you admit that numbers were lower in the NBA due to the rules and lack of 3 point line(not to mention people actually tried to play defense).



The team who Dr J beat in the 1976 ABA Finals went on to have the best defense in the NBA in 1977. Strange for a league who doesn't actually try to play defense, huh? :confusedshrug:




Basically admitting stats were inflated in the ABA(like Doc putting up those numbers in the Finals against a team that allowed 116 PPG per game).In a league with 9 total teams on the verge of folding.


ABA beat the NBA 65% of the time in head 2 head match ups... ABA was the superior league.

[aj1987]

The team who Dr J beat in the 1976 ABA Finals went on to have the best defense in the NBA in 1977. Strange for a league who doesn't actually try to play defense, huh? :confusedshrug:

ABA beat the NBA 65% of the time in head 2 head match ups... ABA was the superior league.
Pace, you ****ing thick headed idiot. Pace. How hard is that to understand? Did you have a brain aneurysm after Curry lost the FMVP to a role player?

[warriorfan]

Pace, you ****ing thick headed idiot. Pace. How hard is that to understand? Did you have a brain aneurysm after Curry lost the FMVP to a role player?


Pace? How does Pace explain ABA trouncing NBA in head to head matchups? How does Pace explain the fact that the team that Dr J beat in the 1976 Finals went on to be the best defensive team in the in the NBA in 1977?

:confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Pace? How does Pace explain ABA trouncing NBA in head to head matchups? How does Pace explain the fact that the team that Dr J beat in the 1976 Finals went on to be the best defensive team in the in the NBA in 1977?

:confusedshrug:
:facepalm

The reason why Dr. J put up those incredible numbers is because they were playing at an ultra high pace. Not only that, the talent distribution means that both leagues weren't as strong as they would be after the merger. MJ, Shaq, etc. did their thing after the merger, in a slower paced league.

It's like I'm explaining to a 4 year old kid.

[warriorfan]

Not only that, the talent distribution means that both leagues weren't as strong as they would be after the merger.


If both leagues weren't as strong as they would be? Why was an ABA team, not only an ABA team but THE ABA team that Dr J beat in the 1976 Finals the best defensive team in the NBA in 1978? :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

If both leagues weren't as strong as they would be? Why was an ABA team, not only an ABA team but THE ABA team that Dr J beat in the 1976 Finals the best defensive team in the NBA in 1978? :confusedshrug:
Are you seriously 4 years old? How would the MERGED league not be stronger when all the elite players are MERGED? That means players who saw time, but weren't as good as their ABA counterparts, saw their minutes reduced for better players. Post merger, the league had MORE talent than when they were divided. The next ASH had 14 players from the NBA and 10 from the ABA.

The Nuggets who made the Finals in the ABA, lost in the first round in the merged league. Even Dr. J's stats dropped from 38/14/6 to 30/7/5. In the ABA, he averaged 29/12/5, compared to 24/7/4 in the NBA (the first 6 seasons). 31/13/5 in the ABA in the PO's and 24/8/4 in the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Are you seriously 4 years old? How would the MERGED league not be stronger when all the elite players are MERGED?

More lesser players on more teams = weaker league.

ABA won 65% of their head to head matchups with the NBA, they were the stronger and more talented league. When the ABA merged with the weaker NBA, the new resulting NBA was a weaker product than the previous ABA league.

[aj1987]

More lesser players on more teams = weaker league.

ABA won 65% of their head to head matchups with the NBA, they were the stronger and more talented league. When the ABA merged with the weaker NBA, the new resulting NBA was a weaker product than the previous ABA league.
Please stop posting. Is English not your first language?

Are you seriously 4 years old? How would the MERGED league not be stronger when all the elite players are MERGED? That means players who saw time, but weren't as good as their ABA counterparts, saw their minutes reduced for better players. Post merger, the league had MORE talent than when they were divided. The next ASG had 14 players from the NBA and 10 from the ABA. Basically, the ABA had 10 All-Stars, who are now playing in a league with a total of 24 All-Stars.

The Nuggets who made the Finals in the ABA, lost in the first round in the merged league. Even Dr. J's stats dropped from 38/14/6 to 30/7/5. In the ABA, he averaged 29/12/5, compared to 24/7/4 in the NBA (the first 6 seasons). 31/13/5 in the ABA in the PO's and 24/8/4 in the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Please stop posting. Is English not your first language?

Are you seriously 4 years old? How would the MERGED league not be stronger when all the elite players are MERGED? That means players who saw time, but weren't as good as their ABA counterparts, saw their minutes reduced for better players. Post merger, the league had MORE talent than when they were divided. The next ASG had 14 players from the NBA and 10 from the ABA. Basically, the ABA had 10 All-Stars, who are now playing in a league with a total of 24 All-Stars.

The Nuggets who made the Finals in the ABA, lost in the first round in the merged league. Even Dr. J's stats dropped from 38/14/6 to 30/7/5. In the ABA, he averaged 29/12/5, compared to 24/7/4 in the NBA (the first 6 seasons). 31/13/5 in the ABA in the PO's and 24/8/4 in the NBA.


When a superior league(ABA) merges with an inferior league(NBA), the resulting league is weaker than the original superior league(ABA).

[GIF REACTION]

warriorfan is a certified idiot. dude has NO clue.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

When a superior league(ABA) merges with an inferior league(NBA), the resulting league is weaker than the original superior league(ABA).

The ABA was not superior (the Nuggets were NEVER championship caliber in the NBA), but if you were to combine separated and diverse talent, into one league, the logical outcome is that league is stronger.

[bizil]

In terms of depth, the NBA was CLEARLY the better league. The main difference was the PG and C positions. But as of the mid 70's, the ABA had the best perimeter player in the world (Dr. J) and two of the top three SG's in the world (Gervin and Thompson). In terms of a pure combo forward (can play SF and PF), McGinnins may have been the best in basketball at the time.

A future top 5-6 GOAT center also got his start at the time in Moses. A combo PF-C sort of ahead of his time in Issel was also there too. And arguably the greatest perimeter defender in basketball was there in Bobby Jones. Could the best team in basketball in the mid 70's in a given year be an ABA team? HELL YA! The USFL, XFL, CBA, etc. COULD have never made those claims in their sports. The ABA and AFL for that matter had great enough talent to do that.

So my point is that the ABA had enough premier talent TO BE the 2nd greatest basketball league of all time. But to say it was EVER better than the NBA would be wrong. However, it was MORE REVOLUTIONARY than the NBA. And in the end, was the MOST IMPORTANT entity to modernize basketball in the 70's.

A lot the things we see today were ABA staples. The San Antonio Spurs were ABA bred. The three point shot was ABA bred. The All Star Weekend featuring the dunk contest, games, and entertainment was ABA bred. The face of the league BEFORE Bird, Magic, and MJ was ABA bred. The player WHO INDUCTED Jordan to the HOF had is greatest success in the ABA. So looking at the 70's, we have to seperate the better overall league (NBA) from the more influential league (ABA). I just think the center and point guard spots swing the overall edge to the NBA.

[aj1987]

When a superior league(ABA) merges with an inferior league(NBA), the resulting league is weaker than the original superior league(ABA).
God! You're probably clinically retarded. Please seek help. No one can be this stupid.

[warriorfan]

In terms of depth, the NBA was CLEARLY the better league. The main difference was the PG and C positions. But as of the mid 70's, the ABA had the best perimeter player in the world (Dr. J) and two of the top three SG's in the world (Gervin and Thompson). In terms of a pure combo forward (can play SF and PF), McGinnins may have been the best in basketball at the time.

A future top 5-6 GOAT center also got his start at the time in Moses. A combo PF-C sort of ahead of his time in Issel was also there too. And arguably the greatest perimeter defender in basketball was there in Bobby Jones. Could the best team in basketball in the mid 70's in a given year be an ABA team? HELL YA! The USFL, XFL, CBA, etc. COULD have never made those claims in their sports. The ABA and AFL for that matter had great enough talent to do that.

So my point is that the ABA had enough premier talent TO BE the 2nd greatest basketball league of all time. But to say it was EVER better than the NBA would be wrong. However, it was MORE REVOLUTIONARY than the NBA. And in the end, was the MOST IMPORTANT entity to modernize basketball in the 70's.

A lot the things we see today were ABA staples. The San Antonio Spurs were ABA bred. The three point shot was ABA bred. The All Star Weekend featuring the dunk contest, games, and entertainment was ABA bred. The face of the league BEFORE Bird, Magic, and MJ was ABA bred. The player WHO INDUCTED Jordan to the HOF had is greatest success in the ABA. So looking at the 70's, we have to seperate the better overall league (NBA) from the more influential league (ABA). I just think the center and point guard spots swing the overall edge to the NBA.

ABA beat NBA in 65% of their match ups at the time of merger. ABA was the better league.

[triangleoffense]

ABA beat NBA in 65% of their match ups at the time of merger. ABA was the better league.
Those were probably gimmick exhibition matches. No way at any point in history was the ABA better. The Knicks, Celtics and Lakers who WAS pretty much the NBA until the 90s were all in the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Those were probably gimmick exhibition matches. No way at any point in history was the ABA better. The Knicks, Celtics and Lakers who WAS pretty much the NBA until the 90s were all in the NBA.

They weren't. They were competitive games for men's pride and ABA came out on top more than the NBA did. The ABA would beat the NBA in 65% of head to head match ups.

What is the best way to determine who is better? You play against eachother.
They did that, and ABA won.

ABA was the stronger league...The facts don't lie.

[aj1987]

They weren't. They were competitive games for men's pride and ABA came out on top more than the NBA did. The ABA would beat the NBA in 65% of head to head match ups.

What is the best way to determine who is better? You play against eachother.
They did that, and ABA won.

ABA was the stronger league...The facts don't lie.
1977 ASG:

ABA - 10 All-Stars
NBA - 14 All-Stars.

Those were EXHIBITION games, you literal retard. Not only that, how do you explain Dr. J's MASSIVE drop in stars? Incase ~6 lines was too much reading, I'll just post the stats for your dumbass.

Even Dr. J's stats dropped from 38/14/6 to 30/7/5. In the ABA, he averaged 29/12/5, compared to 24/7/4 in the NBA (the first 6 seasons). 31/13/5 in the ABA in the PO's and 24/8/4 in the NBA.

[warriorfan]

1977 ASG:

ABA - 10 All-Stars
NBA - 14 All-Stars.

Those were EXHIBITION games, you literal retard. Not only that, how do you explain Dr. J's MASSIVE drop in stars? Incase ~6 lines was too much reading, I'll just post the stats for your dumbass.

Even Dr. J's stats dropped from 38/14/6 to 30/7/5. In the ABA, he averaged 29/12/5, compared to 24/7/4 in the NBA (the first 6 seasons). 31/13/5 in the ABA in the PO's and 24/8/4 in the NBA.

Who wins head to head matchups is a much better indicator than using biased awards based on fan voting.

ABA and NBA did play eachother. ABA won more. The better team won. ABA was better. Learn to live with it.

[aj1987]

Who wins head to head matchups is a much better indicator than using biased awards based on fan voting.

ABA and NBA did play eachother. ABA won more. The better team won. ABA was better. Learn to live with it.
Iggy won the FMVP, and he's currently a better than Curry.

Learn to live with it.

0 votes, BTW. :roll:

[warriorfan]

Iggy won the FMVP, and he's currently a better than Curry.

Learn to live with it.

0 votes, BTW. :roll:

http://www.multimediagames.com/sites/default/files/images/game-banner-images/MGAM_MegaMeltdown_Banner_0.jpg

[bizil]

ABA beat NBA in 65% of their match ups at the time of merger. ABA was the better league.

You're missing the point. In my post, I said the NBA was the better league in terms of depth. BUT if u took the top 12 ABA players vs. the top 12 NBA players in the mid 70's, the ABA stacks up well. But once you go further down the talent chart, ITS OBVIOUS the NBA was the better league. That was the point in my post.

An earlier on, I gave the ABA MAD PROPS!! In the mid 70's, the best team in all of basketball in a given year could have been an ABA team. Dr. J was the 2nd best basketball player in the world ONLY behind Kareem at the time. Gervin and Thompson were in the top 10 players in the world.

While Bob McAdoo was a PF-C with a great swingman style perimeter scoring skillset, Iseel was doing similar things in the ABA. But THATS WHERE THE BUCK STOPS! Player for player across ALL TEAMS, the NBA was the superior league.

[warriorfan]

You're missing the point. In my post, I said the NBA was the better league in terms of depth. BUT if u took the top 12 ABA players vs. the top 12 NBA players in the mid 70's, the ABA stacks up well. But once you go further down the talent chart, ITS OBVIOUS the NBA was the better league. That was the point in my post.

An earlier on, I gave the ABA MAD PROPS!! In the mid 70's, the best team in all of basketball in a given year could have been an ABA team. Dr. J was the 2nd best basketball player in the world ONLY behind Kareem at the time. Gervin and Thompson were in the top 10 players in the world.

While Bob McAdoo was a PF-C with a great swingman style perimeter scoring skillset, Iseel was doing similar things in the ABA. But THATS WHERE THE BUCK STOPS! Player for player across ALL TEAMS, the NBA was the superior league.

While I respect your opinion it is still an opinion that isn't substantiated by hard facts. When two leagues compete head to head and one league beats another more often than not it's a tough sell to try to say that the losing team is a superior league.

[eliteballer]

What does their defensive ranking in 1977 have to do with anything when the actual numbers they allowed in 1976 were 116 ppg?:roll:

Dude made a stupid statement and is trying to go overboard to make people forget his stupidity:lol

[Dr.J4ever]

There's no doubt that the post merger NBA was a better league than the pre-merger NBA or ABA. It just had to be. NBA teams post merger were reinforced by ABA players through the dispersal draft. The 1977 Champion Blazers were greatly helped by ABA PF Maurice Lucas(a little bit of info I got from Lazerus).

The other important thing to remember is that ABA teams who gained entry into the NBA were penalized financially and even drafting rights were taken away from these teams in the 1st year. Despite this, Denver in their very first year took eventual champion Portland to 6 games and almost took the first 2 games. Denver lost at home 101-100, and won the the 2nd game 121-110 in the WCF Semis. Portland then defeated LA, who had the best record in the league, in the WCF 4-0.

The point is the New York Nets defeated Denver the year before in 6 games too.

In June 1970, the NBA owners voted 13-4 to work towards a merger with the ABA. In preparation of this, a series of exhibitions were scheduled. Here's the link as I put interesting backgrounders on the ABA/NBA exhibitions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_Association%E2%80%93National_B asketball_Association_merger

"Interleague competition in anticipation of merger

In the summer before the 1971–72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125–120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][19] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106–103.[19] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15–10 against the NBA in 1973, 16–7 in 1974, and 31–17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[20] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened—the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA–ABA games were intense."[21] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks—and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that he wasn't playing to win, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[22]

Interest in ABA vs. NBA play extended beyond the two leagues' management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a postseason playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the rights to broadcast those games.[23]"

[Dr.J4ever]

More from the link:

"Immediate results of the ABA

[Dr.J4ever]

"Pressing and trapping defenses

Pressing and trapping defenses, not used in the slower-tempo NBA, were common in the ABA, and after the merger began to play a larger role in the NBA.[88]

Billy Cunningham, Philadelphia 76ers star: "When the Knicks were pressing and shooting 3-pointers and all of that under Rick Pitino, people acted as if that was something new. Hey, half the teams in the ABA played like that."[89]

Hubie Brown, former head coach of the Kentucky Colonels, Atlanta Hawks, New York Knicks and Memphis Grizzlies: "We (the ABA) were ahead of the NBA in so many different ways. We had the 3-point play. The NBA said it was a gimmick; now it's one of the most exciting parts of the pro game... About everything we did in the ABA they do now in the NBA except they didn't take our red, white and blue ball."[88]

[Dr.J4ever]

Finally:


" Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[96]"

The most interesting thing to me is Hubie Brown's comment that the ABA was ahead of the NBA in so many ways. It's hard to say the ABA was better than the NBA because the NBA seemed to had more depth, but it might be fair to say that had both leagues continued playing separately, and if the ABA did well financially, the ABA would have become the superior league in a matter of a few years. Why? Because of the drafting of underclassmen.

Also, in conclusion, it's fair to say that had there been an ABA champion vs. NBA champion during the mid 70s, the ABA very well could have won 1 or 2 of those series in the mid 70s.

What led to the more respectable AFL-NFL merger? The NY Jets and Namath "upsetting" the Colts. The AFL gained respectability. Could Doc have been the "Namath" of the ABA?

The ABA just missed that because of financial reasons. Nothing more.

[eliteballer]

You can debate about quality all you want, but we're discussing raw stats here and there is NO DEBATE that in relation to the NBA, the ABA had a style and system(ie 3's) that led to inflated stats relative to the NBA.

The Nuggets allowing 116 ppg and scoring 122 a game, with both dropping dramatically the next year in the NBA, along with the Doctor's regular season AND finals stats both dropping in a similarly dramatic fashion, the clearly inflated rebounding numbers of the ABA players etc.

Not to even mention the fact that with the creation of the ABA and the subsequent race with the NBA to put teams in cities, pro basketball went from one league with around a dozen teams to two leagues which added a combined 18 teams in a four year period, and actually had LESS total teams when the leagues merged than the two leagues combined for YEARS earlier, when the talent pool would have theoretically been even smaller.

There is absolutely ZERO question that the quality of play and players in the two split leagues wasn't anywhere near what it was when they combined.

[feyki]

One of the most underrated players ever .

Actually , All 70's player are hugely underrated ; Erving,Barry,Hondo,Cowens,McAdoo,Dan Issel etc etc .. Even , If Kareem retired at 1981 , He would have been too right now .

[Stringer Bell]

Walton had such a terrific but short peak, so much of the offense went through him.

I was recently rewatching game 5, my god the transition defense by the 76ers was HORRIBLE. The 76ers had a lot of talent and fast break points, but people forget how many points the Blazers got in transition too. Just dreadful defense in transition.

In game 6, someone on the 76ers missed a free throw, and Portland brought it back. There is ONE guy back on D, Erving, the rest just standing around, while the Blazers come back and get an easy 2.



BTW, Julius also had a great Finals series in the following year (1977), in the NBA...

30.3 / 6.8 / 5.0 / 2.7 / 1.2
.543 FG% / .857 FT%

You can check out some of those games too, he was playing extremely well...
With the exception of Doug Collins, most of his teammates played like shit though, especially McGinnis - one of the league's best forwards - who was just awful.
Philly lost against a better T-E-A-M.

And ofc that the NBA was different than the ABA; less run-n-gun, more physicality, more defensively driven at the time, no 3pt-line then so less spacing...

Doc still more than proved his worth in the NBA though, in many ways...
And while I agree that the ABA was an inferior league, it still had some great players/teams, and what Erving did there shouldn't be disregarded or even close to it, especially stuff like those 1976 Finals.

Plus, when Julius made the transition to the NBA, he had to sacrifice his personal play, because the team was filled with (iso) scorers, shot-creators and ball-stoppers, with coach Shue running that strategy of players creating for themselves and others instead of keeping the ball moving around more - with the players/talent they had, you could say it was better that way though...
And the team still had success that year despite everything, they immediately made the Finals with the Dr having a great Playoff run.

[feyki]

Walton had such a terrific but short peak, so much of the offense went through him.

I was recently rewatching game 5, my god the transition defense by the 76ers was HORRIBLE. The 76ers had a lot of talent and fast break points, but people forget how many points the Blazers got in transition too. Just dreadful defense in transition.

In game 6, someone on the 76ers missed a free throw, and Portland brought it back. There is ONE guy back on D, Erving, the rest just standing around, while the Blazers come back and get an easy 2.

It was not ABA vs NBA in the finals , Erving did past Celtics inside the conference . 77 Blazers were a new power . Phila beating Celtics means ABA>NBA before merger.

[Stringer Bell]

It was not ABA vs NBA in the finals , Erving did past Celtics inside the conference . 77 Blazers were a new power . Phila beating Celtics means ABA>NBA before merger.

??

I'm not comparing the leagues. Just talking about the 1977 Finals, as the original post talked about Portland being a better team than Philly and not being so lazy on defense.

[feyki]

??

I'm not comparing the leagues. Just talking about the 1977 Finals, as the original post talked about Portland being a better team than Philly and not being so lazy on defense.

My response was about the quote . Part of referring "inferior league" .

Blazers were a better team for sure . Phila were exist with Erving .