Take best 5 seasons, what does the top 10 look like?

[Marchesk]

This doesn't have to be consecutive seasons, and playoffs can count (Shaq).

I'm just wondering if it differs much from overall career top 10, because some guys were really good for a few seasons, and some were good over their entire careers.

[kurple]

Allen Iverson would be top15-20, just saying

[SouBeachTalents]

I think it'd honestly look just like the consensus top 10/11 looks now

[Marchesk]

I think it'd honestly look just like the consensus top 10/11 looks now

I don't think Duncan makes the top 10. I do think Oscar and Moses get in.

[West-Side]

Bill Walton jumps up like 30 spots.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think Duncan makes the top 10. I do think Oscar and Moses get in.

I think '99-'03/'02-'06/'03-'07 Duncan would be a pretty clear cut top 10 player of all time

[3ball]

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Shaq prime (00'-02') vs. MJ prime (91'-93') - REB & AST cancel out, STL & BLK too:


REGULAR SEASON:

MJ:... 31.4 PPG, 58.2% TS, 122 ORtg, 0.288 WS/48, 3 All-Defense 1st Team, 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 PPG, 58.0% TS, 115 ORtg, 0.264 WS/48, 2 All-Defense 2nd Team, 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 33.7 PPG, 57.2% TS, 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 PPG, 56.2% TS, 113 ORtg, 0.238 WS/48


FINALS:

MJ:... 36.3 PPG, 52.6% FG, 84.3% FT, played #5, #3, #9 defenses, beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 PPG, 59.5% FG, 50.6% FT, played #13, #5, #1 defenses, beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd

[kshutts1]

.
Shaq prime (00'-02') vs. MJ prime (91'-93') - REB & AST cancel out, STL & BLK too:


I would say that steals and blocks slightly favor MJ, but rebounds and assists more-than-slightly favor Shaq.

I literally just added them together. It's not conclusive evidence or anything, but it tells the story pretty well.

[3ball]

I would say that steals and blocks slightly favor MJ, but rebounds and assists more-than-slightly favor Shaq.


So those categories cancel out... That's why I excluded them..

Scoring, efficiency, win shares and accolades - that's all I looked at, which is appropriate for those two

and MJ kills Shaq, no surprise

[kshutts1]

So those categories cancel out... That's why I excluded them.. MJ averaged twice as many assists, and Shaq twice as many rebounds... Ditto on steals for MJ and blocks for Shaq.

That's why I excluded them.. Scoring, efficiency, win shares accolades - that's all I looked at, which is appropriate for those two - and MJ kills Shaq, no surprise (maybe to you though).
But when the starting values are significantly different, a % based comparison is pretty misleading.

Edit: I see you edited it. Under what logic are you saying they cancel out one another? Because each of them leads in a category?

[3ball]

But when the starting values are significantly different, a % based comparison is pretty misleading.
We can't fudge the numbers.

Since MJ's is a guard, he has a big assist and steal advantage, while Shaq has a rebound and block advantage being a big man...

I could've included those categories, but it just muddies the analysis with apples and oranges comparisons.

Again - scoring, efficiency, win shares and accolades are appropriate for these two - and MJ destroys Shaq, as expected.

[kshutts1]

We can't fudge the numbers.

Since MJ's is a guard, he has a big assist and steal advantage, while Shaq has a rebound and block advantage being a big man...

I could've included those categories, but it just muddies the analysis with apples and oranges comparisons.

Again - scoring, efficiency, win shares and accolades are appropriate for these two - and MJ destroys Shaq, as expected.
How then can we compare any two players from different positions?
What of players from different eras?

Both of those are "apples and oranges" comparison with factual, rather than perceived or assumed, differences.

[3ball]

How then can we compare any two players from different positions?
What of players from different eras?

Both of those are "apples and oranges" comparison with factual, rather than perceived or assumed, differences.
Scoring, Efficiency, Win Shares, and Accolades are things that any position has equal ACCESS to.... So it's apples to apples to compare these factors, regardless of position.

Otoh, guards and big men have different access to rebs, assists, steals and blocks, so it doesn't make sense to compare them

Again - scoring, efficiency, win shares, and accolades are the appropriate apples-to-apples comparisons, and MJ crushes Shaq.

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe slides (what was his best season??)
Wilt rises

[Marchesk]

Wilt's ahead of Kareem in this scenario.

[kshutts1]

Scoring, Efficiency, Win Shares, and Accolades are things that any position has equal ACCESS to.... So it's apples to apples to compare these factors, regardless of position.

Otoh, guards and big men have different access to rebs, assists, steals and blocks, so it doesn't make sense to compare them

Again - scoring, efficiency, win shares, and accolades are the appropriate apples-to-apples comparisons, and MJ crushes Shaq.
Ok, so going by OPs criteria, though leaving out playoffs, here's Shaq's best WS years (never used this stat before), along with the rest of his stats that you care about...

94 -- 29.3p // 60% eFG // 16.9
95 -- 29.3 // 58 // 14
00 -- 29.7 // 57 // 18.6
01 -- 28.7 // 57 // 14.9
02 -- 27.2 // 58 // 13.2 (per48, though, was .262, 2nd best of his career)
03 -- 27.5 // 57 // 13.2 (per48 .25, 5th best)

I did my work on Shaq. Did I miss any stats that you care about? Now let's see Jordan's best 5 or 6 years, RS only, doesn't have to be consecutive, and no playoffs.

[Marchesk]

Just for fun, I'll do Wilt's:

YR -- PER / eFG / WS
61 -- 31.7 / 50.6 / 23.1
62 -- 31.8 / 52.8 / 20.9
63 -- 31.6 / 52.4 / 25.0
65 -- 28.3 / 54.0 / 21.4
66 -- 26.5 / 68.3 / 21.9

[ralph_i_el]

We can't fudge the numbers.

Since MJ's is a guard, he has a big assist and steal advantage, while Shaq has a rebound and block advantage being a big man...

I could've included those categories, but it just muddies the analysis with apples and oranges comparisons.

Again - scoring, efficiency, win shares and accolades are appropriate for these two - and MJ destroys Shaq, as expected.
You would have to compare shaqs rebounds to the average big and MJ's assists to the average guards, then adjust everything for pace.

But you won't do that, because you enjoy MJ's inflated 80's numbers. No D+run and gun= bs numbers.


Oh btw, did MJ ever beat Shaq in the playoffs?:roll:

[GreggPopazit]

Kobe slides (what was his best season??)


Yeah, Kobe is in a pickle here. His best season is either:

-Best statistically was when he missed the playoffs
-Best statistically as a champion was as a clear cut side kick to Shaq
-As top dog on a championship team he was worse statistically than the 2 above

[kshutts1]

Just for fun, I'll do Wilt's:

YR -- PER / eFG / WS
61 -- 31.7 / 50.6 / 23.1
62 -- 31.8 / 52.8 / 20.9
63 -- 31.6 / 52.4 / 25.0
65 -- 28.3 / 54.0 / 21.4
66 -- 26.5 / 68.3 / 21.9
Why the gigantic increase in eFG that year?
Ah... you mislabeled it. '67 was his 68% eFG year, and it was because of the drastic role change.

[kshutts1]

Ok, so going by OPs criteria, though leaving out playoffs, here's Shaq's best WS years (never used this stat before), along with the rest of his stats that you care about...

94 -- 29.3p // 60% eFG // 16.9
95 -- 29.3 // 58 // 14
00 -- 29.7 // 57 // 18.6
01 -- 28.7 // 57 // 14.9
02 -- 27.2 // 58 // 13.2 (per48, though, was .262, 2nd best of his career)
03 -- 27.5 // 57 // 13.2 (per48 .25, 5th best)

I did my work on Shaq. Did I miss any stats that you care about? Now let's see Jordan's best 5 or 6 years, RS only, doesn't have to be consecutive, and no playoffs.

Ok since 3ball left the thread, I did the work on MJ....

88 -- 35 // 53.7 // 21.2
89 -- 32.5 // 54.6 // 19.8
90 -- 33.6 // 55 // 19
91 -- 31.5 // 54.7 // 20.3
96 -- 30.4 // 52.5 // 20.4

I think that Shaq's significantly higher eFG is offset by his lower scoring; if Shaq had attempted to score as often as MJ, their eFG could have been very similar.
MJ destroys Shaq pretty handily, however, in WS.

I've never used WS before. Anyone that knows about that stat... is there something significant within the formula that would benefit MJ and/or hurt Shaq, considering slight era and positional differences? But regardless, MJ's win shares are pretty bonkers.

[aj1987]

Allen Iverson would be top15-20, just saying
:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Allen Iverson would be top15-20, just saying

Holy shit you're ****ed up with the Iverson stanning :facepalm

[3ball]

94 -- 29.3p // 60% eFG // 16.9
95 -- 29.3 // 58 // 14
00 -- 29.7 // 57 // 18.6
01 -- 28.7 // 57 // 14.9
02 -- 27.2 // 58 // 13.2 (per48, though, was .262, 2nd best of his career)
03 -- 27.5 // 57 // 13.2 (per48 .25, 5th best)

I did my work on Shaq. Did I miss any stats that you care about? Now let's see Jordan's best 5 or 6 years, RS only, doesn't have to be consecutive, and no playoffs.


MJ's top 5 win share seasons in RS are ALL HIGHER THAN SHAQ'S HIGH of 18.6 that you listed above.

Ditto on PPG.. jfc, did you even look up MJ's win share and PPG stats?... Not only do they destroy Shaq's, but MJ has the highest win shares, PPG and PER of all time... BY FAR
.

[RidonKs]

shaq moves up
wilt moves up
bird moves up

duncan moves down
russell moves down
kobe moves down

[3ball]

You would have to compare shaqs rebounds to the average big and compare MJ's assists to the average guards, then adjust everything for pace.


In the history of the game, only 4 non-point guards have a higher assist average than MJ.

Also, his assist average in the playoffs was 5.7... This is very close to Lebron's 6.6, and you think Lebron is one of the best passers of all time

And in reality, Lebron is not a better passer than MJ, because Lebron's assist average is almost the same despite dominating the ball more than point guards..

Furthermore, the one time MJ played PG and dominated the ball like that, he averaged 30/9/11 including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - Lebron has never passed this well in his entire CAREER as a ball-dominator.





No D+run and gun


In the 80's, they didn't have have drive-and-kick for 3-pointers... So Lebron's bread-and-butter DIDN'T EXIST in previous eras.

Screen rolls back then were never HIGH screen rolls where the floor is spaced.. With no spacing, screen rolls were harder to execute and their efficiency was lower than today's game.

With screen roll efficiency hampered by no-spacing, the most preferred and highest efficiency options were post, off-ball, and mid-range.. Unfortunately, these are Lebron's weakest areas - accordingly, he'd be a fraction of the player in previous eras without his drive-and-kick (maybe like, 70% of what he is now).





Oh btw, did MJ ever beat Shaq in the playoffs?


:rolleyes:

MJ swept Shaq in 1996, while averaging 30/5/6 on 52%, including 45 points in the closeout game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l8lTlmZeNc


Btw, no spacing in previous eras meant no weakside spacing, so players faced more defenders on the strongside than in today's game... That destroys any argument about defense you have - today's player simply faces LESS defenders on the strongside due to weakside spacing, end of story..

That's the effect of spacing - never forget it - players have more room to operate and face less strongside defenders - MJ would utterly destroy today's spacing and porous strongsides.
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

As in top10 peaks?

Top5: Shaq, MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Bird.

Rest of the top10: Hakeem, Duncan, LeBron, Magic and probably Moses.

HM: Walton, Chuck, Kobe, KG, Russell, Oscar...

[ClipperRevival]

In the history of the game, only 4 non-point guards have a higher assist average than MJ.

Also, his assist average in the playoffs was 5.7... This is very close to Lebron's 6.6, and you think Lebron is one of the best passers of all time

And in reality, Lebron is not a better passer than MJ, because Lebron's assist average is almost the same despite dominating the ball more than point guards..

Furthermore, the one time MJ played PG and dominated the ball like that, he averaged 30/9/11 including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - Lebron has never passed this well in his entire CAREER as a ball-dominator.



In the 80's, they didn't have have drive-and-kick for 3-pointers... So Lebron's bread-and-butter DIDN'T EXIST in previous eras.

Screen rolls back then were never HIGH screen rolls where the floor is spaced.. With no spacing, screen rolls were harder to execute and their efficiency was lower than today's game.

With screen roll efficiency hampered by no-spacing, the most preferred and highest efficiency options were post, off-ball, and mid-range.. Unfortunately, these are Lebron's weakest areas - accordingly, he'd be a fraction of the player in previous eras without his drive-and-kick (maybe like, 70% of what he is now).



:rolleyes:

MJ swept Shaq in 1996, while averaging 30/5/6 on 52%, including 45 points in the closeout game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l8lTlmZeNc


Btw, no spacing in previous eras meant no weakside spacing, so players faced more defenders on the strongside than in today's game... That destroys any argument about defense you have - today's player simply faces LESS defenders on the strongside due to weakside spacing, end of story..

That's the effect of spacing - never forget it - players have more room to operate and face less strongside defenders - MJ would utterly destroy today's spacing and porous strongsides.
.

You should get the word "spacing" tattooed on your forehead.