Wouldn't Kobe have gotten KILLED for this?

[3ball]

Let's say Pau and Lamar got hurt before the 2010 Finals and Phil said:


"We have no offense except Kobe, so **** it.. Let's turn these Finals into an experiment - we'll just clearout for Kobe everytime and see how much he can score.

We'll put all 4 teammates behind the 3-point line on the weakside, which no one has ever done before as an ongoing strategy - this will give him THE most secluded clearouts in history".
And let's say the other team obliged - over and over and over again, they allow Kobe the most secluded clearouts in history, WITHOUT double-teaming.

Now what would happen if Kobe averaged 35 ppg on 35 shot attempts and 39.8%?

[Fire Colangelo]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%

[KirbyPls]

Let's say Pau and Lamar got hurt before the 2010 Finals and Phil said:


"We have no offense except Kobe, so **** it.. Let's turn these Finals into an experiment - we'll just clearout for Kobe everytime and see how much he can score.

We'll put all 4 teammates behind the 3-point line on the weakside, which no one has ever done before as an ongoing strategy - this will give him THE most secluded clearouts in history".
And let's say the other team obliged - over and over and over again, they allow Kobe the most secluded clearouts in history, WITHOUT double-teaming.

Now what would happen if Kobe averaged 35 ppg on 35 shot attempts and 39.8%?

Since Kobe's career finals FG% is 41% with significantly lower scoring than 35ppg, I'm not sure what your point is.

[K Xerxes]

Kobe's a better shooter so he would probably average more points on that volume of shots. But, then again, he isn't as good or as willing a passer, so GS would probably focus the defense more on him. Regardless, the end result would be a loss so I'm not sure what your point is, except to hate on LeBron.

[3ball]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%


3 problems that make your comparison not analogous:


1) Kobe never got clearouts in the 2010 Finals

2) Kobe never got the most secluded clearouts in history in the 2010 Finals

3) Kobe was not played single-coverage in the 2010 NBA Finals
.

[kennethgriffin]

i said this a long time ago


if kobe took 25+ shots a game and only hit 38%, 27% outside of 5 feet... it wouldnt matter if he scored 50ppg. he'd be crucified


lebron on the other hand gets half the votes for fmvp and the ESPY for best champion?


cause he won 2 games?


espn needs to quit sucking this mans c*ck

[3ball]

Since Kobe's career finals FG% is 41% with significantly lower scoring than 35ppg, I'm not sure what your point is.
1) Kobe never got clearouts in the 2010 Finals

2) Kobe never got the most secluded clearouts in history in the 2010 Finals

3) Kobe was not played single-coverage in the 2010 NBA Finals

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe's a better shooter so he would probably average more points on that volume of shots. But, then again, he isn't as good or as willing a passer, so GS would probably focus the defense more on him. Regardless, the end result would be a loss so I'm not sure what your point is, except to hate on LeBron.
Ding Ding Ding!

[Fire Colangelo]

3 problems that make your comparison not analogous:


1) Kobe never got clearouts in the 2010 Finals

2) Kobe never got the most secluded clearouts in history in the 2010 Finals

3) Kobe was not played single-coverage in the 2010 NBA Finals
.

Well, one would think he'd be able to find the open man while getting double teamed/triple teamed, but his assist numbers didn't really increase either so.....

[Akrazotile]

OP getting L's funeled down his throat like cheap beer at a frat party

[KirbyPls]

My man-crush's second-rate doppelganger isn't getting praise or context for his horrendous career finals FG%

:cry: :mad:

[StephHamann]

Well, one would think he'd be able to find the open man while getting double teamed/triple teamed, but his assist numbers didn't really increase either so.....

He Kobe-assisted probably 8 times per game to Bynum and Gasol.

Great new assist, but non on the boxscore, Kobe assist.

:bowdown:

http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

[Fire Colangelo]

Not to mention the man was coming off of 4 straight finals going into his 5th with two of his teammates injured. As well as being involved in the Olympics in 12...

And people still find a way to hate.... Ridiculous

[Nash]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%
:roll: :roll:

uhhhhhhhhh 3ball taking the L and thread is backfiring.

what were you thinking 3ball?!:coleman:

[Fire Colangelo]

You mean when Artest rebounded one of Kobe's bricks to secure the win against the Suns?

Kobe is a more effective 1v1 scorer, Lebron is better at finding teammates. Who the fk cares they just play the game differently.

[3ball]

Well, one would think he'd be able to find the open man while getting double teamed/triple teamed, but his assist numbers didn't really increase either so.....



Kobe is a phenomenal 1-on-1 player, so he's not exploitable by single-covering him - Boston had to double, and he found Artest for the most important shot and play of the series:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-05-2015/HPJI6a.gif


Of course, I'm waiting for someone to show me Kobe getting a clearout where all 4 teammates are behind the 3-point line on the weakside...

Before this year, it had virtually never been done before other than a random one-off - it's never been an ongoing strategy, ever.

But it would be amazing - when I think of Kobe getting that kind of clearout, I'm flabbergasted at what that would look like.. (obviously, it would never happen because no defense would play Kobe single-coverage.... but if it DID happen... yikes)

[imdaman99]

People want to give Lebron all of the credit but none of the blame. If Cavs are going well, it's all Lebron. If Cavs are not doing so well, it's the coaches fault. It's basically anyone but Lebron's fault. That's what happens when you control the media and have everyone believing the hype.

[Lebron23]

OP is taking massive L's.

[Lebron23]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%


This

He might score 35 or more points, but he wouldn't average 8.8 assists and 13.3 rebounds per game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe took 27 shots per game in the 09 finals to score 32.4ppg

Lebron needed another 8 shots per game to score 3 extra points..

:roll: :roll:

oh and in that same series, Kobe averaged 7.4 assist per game, while the next leading assist man on his team averaged 2.2..

[Kblaze8855]

People want to give Lebron all of the credit but none of the blame. If Cavs are going well, it's all Lebron. If Cavs are not doing so well, it's the coaches fault. It's basically anyone but Lebron's fault. That's what happens when you control the media and have everyone believing the hype.


There is no logical reason for the "If ___ gets the credit he must get the blame" line of thinking. It sounds nice but it doesnt hold up when you sit down and think about it. If someone outplays all his teammates...

Hes the biggest individual reason they won if they win.

Hes also the one who did the most to prevent losing if they lost.

So how does one NOT...credit him most with winning....and the LEAST for losing?

Really...how do you blame someone the most for losing when everyone played worse?

If 11 guys perform worse...how is the one who played best...the most to blame for the loss?

Where is the logic in that?

Its just an irrational view that nobody really thinks about.

They just repeat it.

[3ball]

Lebron is better at finding teammates.


Kobe's assist averages aren't much less than Lebron's considering how much more Lebron dominates the ball (more than starting PG's).

Kobe would average MORE assists than Lebron if he dominated the ball that much.. Lebron's 6.5 apg in the playoffs is average for a point guard.

But Kobe wants to WIN... So he would never dominate the ball that much - he knows he needs to be elite in ALL aspects of scoring - that way he can play in whatever fashion allows teammates to play to their strengths and maximize their capacity, which maximizes the TEAM'S capacity.

Also, being elite in all scoring areas gave Kobe the capacity to overcome a wide range of opponent strategies, such as the Spurs, Kings, and Celtics... (Kobe would've won EASILY in 2011)

Otoh, Lebron would not be elite if he didn't play PG... Unlike Kobe's elite ability in ALL areas, Lebron's one-dimensional scoring capacity makes him exploitable and unable to find chemistry with teammates like Kobe could... One can only imagine how Lebron would've cratered Pau's stats the same way he did Love and Bosh.
.

[MP.Trey]

Of course Kobe would get killed for it, just like LeBron has been.

And btw, 3ball. If you wanna prop up Jordan, praising Kobe may not be the best way to do it. Did kennethgriffin get a hold of your account?

[red1]

OP getting L's funeled down his throat like cheap beer at a frat party
:roll:

[3ball]

If you wanna prop up Jordan, praising Kobe may not be the best way to do it. Did kennethgriffin get a hold of your account?


Sure it is - Kobe is better than Lebron.. It's better this way because Lebron is not worthy of a direct comparison to the GOAT.

And that's the beauty of MJ's goatness - it's never necessary to argue his goatness - I can just use one of his underlings/protoge's to argue against Lebron, Bird, Magic or anybody for that matter... :pimp:

[stalkerforlife]

Bran has had the biggest pass in NBA history.

Kobe would be labeled a cancer, chucker, etc. Obviously. Bad teammate. Selfish. Blah blah blah.

And Kobe would NEVER average 35 a game on 34 shots a game if the opposing team let him ISO 1 on 1. NEVER.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe took 27 shots per game in the 09 finals to score 32.4ppg

Lebron needed another 8 shots per game to score 3 extra points..

:roll: :roll:

oh and in that same series, Kobe averaged 7.4 assist per game, while the next leading assist man on his team averaged 2.2..

:lebronamazed:

[stalkerforlife]

Sure it is - Kobe is better than Lebron.. It's better this way because Lebron is not worthy of a direct comparison to the GOAT.

And that's the beauty of MJ's goatness - it's never necessary to argue his goatness - I can just use one of his underlings/protoge's to argue against Lebron, Bird, Magic or anybody for that matter... :pimp:

:applause: :bowdown:

[imnew09]

Kobe owned the Suns when they played zone on him. Dropped 30++ like nothing

[sdot_thadon]

Backfire. :applause:

[BigMacAttack]

Kobe took 27 shots per game in the 09 finals to score 32.4ppg

Lebron needed another 8 shots per game to score 3 extra points..

:roll: :roll:

oh and in that same series, Kobe averaged 7.4 assist per game, while the next leading assist man on his team averaged 2.2..

:applause:

[Hittin_Shots]

i said this a long time ago


if kobe took 25+ shots a game and only hit 38%, 27% outside of 5 feet... it wouldnt matter if he scored 50ppg. he'd be crucified


lebron on the other hand gets half the votes for fmvp and the ESPY for best champion?


cause he won 2 games?


espn needs to quit sucking this mans c*ck

Well it's difficult for them to suck Kobe's with your head in the way

[tmacattack33]

Let's say Pau and Lamar got hurt before the 2010 Finals and Phil said:


"We have no offense except Kobe, so **** it.. Let's turn these Finals into an experiment - we'll just clearout for Kobe everytime and see how much he can score.

We'll put all 4 teammates behind the 3-point line on the weakside, which no one has ever done before as an ongoing strategy - this will give him THE most secluded clearouts in history".
And let's say the other team obliged - over and over and over again, they allow Kobe the most secluded clearouts in history, WITHOUT double-teaming.

Now what would happen if Kobe averaged 35 ppg on 35 shot attempts and 39.8%?

:roll:

35 ppg on 39.8% FG is way better than Kobe's average in the Finals.

Not to mention the assists and rebounds.

So, back answer your question...if Kobe had probably what be the best or second best Finals of his career, he would be heralded.

[sdot_thadon]

Well it's difficult for them to suck Kobe's with your head in the way
Damn.:lebronamazed:

[Fire Colangelo]

Kobe's assist averages aren't much less than Lebron's considering how much more Lebron dominates the ball (more than starting PG's).

Kobe would average MORE assists than Lebron if he dominated the ball that much.. Lebron's 6.5 apg in the playoffs is average for a point guard.

But Kobe wants to WIN... So he would never dominate the ball that much - he knows he needs to be elite in ALL aspects of scoring - that way he can play in whatever fashion allows teammates to play to their strengths and maximize their capacity, which maximizes the TEAM'S capacity.

Also, being elite in all scoring areas gave Kobe the capacity to overcome a wide range of opponent strategies, such as the Spurs, Kings, and Celtics... (Kobe would've won EASILY in 2011)

Otoh, Lebron would not be elite if he didn't play PG... Unlike Kobe's elite ability in ALL areas, Lebron's one-dimensional scoring capacity makes him exploitable and unable to find chemistry with teammates like Kobe could... One can only imagine how Lebron would've cratered Pau's stats the same way he did Love and Bosh.
.

Well, this is where you would have to watch the game instead of just looking at box scores. But hey let me beat you at your own game:

LeBron regular season career averages: 27/7/7 50% FG
Kobe regular season career averages: 25/5/5 45% FG

LeBron playoff career averages: 28/9/7 47% FG
Kobe playoff career averages: 26/5/5 45%

According to stats, LeBron is a better scorer, more efficient, better rebounder, and a better playmaker than Kobe is in both the regular season and the playoffs.

It's simple really... Jordan is a stats monster so you can get by using stats to justify Jordan > LeBron.... But using stats as a metric to say Kobe > LeBron is not a good idea. For years, Kobe fans have been using the "eye test" to prop Kobe, there is a reason for that.

[knicksman]

bran is considered GOAT by espn statnerds yet constantly disrespected by elite coaches in the league. Fat ass diaw will never be assigned to kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well, this is where you would have to watch the game instead of just looking at box scores. But hey let me beat you at your own game:

LeBron regular season career averages: 27/7/7 50% FG
Kobe regular season career averages: 25/5/5 45% FG

LeBron playoff career averages: 28/9/7 47% FG
Kobe playoff career averages: 26/5/5 45%

According to stats, LeBron is a better scorer, more efficient, better rebounder, and a better playmaker than Kobe is in both the regular season and the playoffs.

It's simple really... Jordan is a stats monster so you can get by using stats to justify Jordan > LeBron.... But using stats as a metric to say Kobe > LeBron is not a good idea. For years, Kobe fans have been using the "eye test" to prop Kobe, there is a reason for that.

Add Finals to that

LeBron: 27/9/7 46%
Kobe: 25/6/5 42%

[tpols]

Well, this is where you would have to watch the game instead of just looking at box scores. But hey let me beat you at your own game:

LeBron regular season career averages: 27/7/7 50% FG
Kobe regular season career averages: 25/5/5 45% FG

LeBron playoff career averages: 28/9/7 47% FG
Kobe playoff career averages: 26/5/5 45%

According to stats, LeBron is a better scorer, more efficient, better rebounder, and a better playmaker than Kobe is in both the regular season and the playoffs.

It's simple really... Jordan is a stats monster so you can get by using stats to justify Jordan > LeBron.... But using stats as a metric to say Kobe > LeBron is not a good idea. For years, Kobe fans have been using the "eye test" to prop Kobe, there is a reason for that.

why would you criticize someone for using boxscores when you yourself just made the laziest argument possible citing career averages ? A 5 year old can detail what you just posted. 3ball, in the post you quoted, did not even cite a single box score stat.. he simply gave explanations and logic in word form.

3ball, for all his bias, actually articulated and applied reason for his opinion.. and you did nothing to refute it.

[knicksman]

Add Finals to that

LeBron: 27/9/7 46%
Kobe: 25/6/5 42%

add rings to that

2/6
5/7

[G0ATbe]

LeBalds godlike athleticism masked his inefficiency early in his career( not in the finals though). Now that he's declined to peak Kobe's athletic ability he's shown he's far more inefficient than Kobe ever was.

[3ball]

Kobe's assist averages aren't much less than Lebron's considering how much more Lebron dominates the ball (more than starting PG's).

Kobe would average MORE assists than Lebron if he dominated the ball that much.. Lebron's 6.5 apg in the playoffs is average for a point guard.

But Kobe wants to WIN... So he would never dominate the ball that much - he knows he needs to be elite in ALL aspects of scoring - if he was only elite when dominating the ball, team chemistry and strategy would suffer, and ultimately the team's ceiling.

Otoh, Lebron wouldn't be elite if he didn't play PG... Unlike Kobe's elite ability in ALL areas, Lebron's one-dimensional style makes him exploitable and unable to find chemistry with teammates like Kobe did... One can only imagine how Lebron would've cratered Pau's stats the same way he did Love and Bosh - and that would've been a tragedy.


FireColangelo - don't quote my posts if you aren't going to read them - you said the post above used stats to say Kobe > Lebron... That couldn't be further from the truth - the post above QUALITATIVELY explains why Kobe > Lebron.

I would never use stats to say Kobe > Lebron... Obviously, that doesn't work.

But I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is 2/6.





Jordan is a stats monster so you can get by using stats to justify Jordan > LeBron....


There isn't one aspect of Lebron's career that matches MJ, so I don't need stats to justify MJ over Lebron either.

I can use the eye test to see that MJ is better in every aspect of the game (except maybe def rebounds).

I can also look at his superior accolades, worship testimony from every great player to ever play, and knowledge of his intangibles and clutch.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

add rings to that

Nothing the Knicks would know anything about

[LAZERUSS]

I doubt Kobe would have done any worse than MJ did in the first round of the '87 playoffs (and in Jordan's highest scoring season), and against a fading 59-23 Celtics team. 35.7 ppg on a .417 FG% in a sweeping series loss, which included a 9-30 clinching game three performance (and with Oakley hanging a 20-15 series to back him up.)

[Akrazotile]

Nothing the Knicks would know anything about


http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/holy-sht.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Can you imagine the '94 Bulls with Kobe?

As it was they went 55-27 without MJ, and had Grant and Pippen not collectively missed 22 games, they would easily have won 60+.

Same with Lebron. Put him on that team, and that was an easy ring.

[knicksman]

Nothing the Knicks would know anything about

Nothing more beta than bran stans:lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

3ball ethering bran stans as always :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Nothing more beta than bran stans:lol

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/06/sports/06lebron_CA0/articleLarge.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

3ball ethering bran stans as always :oldlol: :oldlol:

Nope...just his twice daily "anti-Lebron" topics...most of which have been wiped out.

And the sad fact of the matter is, virtually any reasonable poster on this site (which aren't very many) would have no problem ranking MJ over Lebron.

But, he not only rips Lebron, he also blatantly rips MJ's teammates...who were so bad that thy could "only" go 55-27 with basically Pete Myers replacing Jordan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nope...just his twice daily "anti-Lebron" topics...most of which have been wiped out.

And the sad fact of the matter is, virtually any reasonable poster on this site (which aren't very many) would have no problem ranking MJ over Lebron.

But, he not only rips Lebron, he also blatantly rips MJ's teammates...who were so bad that thy could "only" go 55-27 with basically Pete Myers replacing Jordan.

yeah and you sit here all day typing novels trying to explain how somebody so dominant in the regular season could be such a chump in the playoffs

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

yeah and you sit here all day typing novels trying to explain how somebody so dominant in the regular season could be such a chump in the playoffs

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

I try to limit my takes on Kareem.

[JT123]

I doubt Kobe would have done any worse than MJ did in the first round of the '87 playoffs (and in Jordan's highest scoring season), and against a fading 59-23 Celtics team. 35.7 ppg on a .417 FG% in a sweeping series loss, which included a 9-30 clinching game three performance (and with Oakley hanging a 20-15 series to back him up.)
:applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Incidently, Kobe hung a 33-7-7 .513 FG% series against a Spurs team that allowed a third-best 88.4 ppg on a second best .419 FG% in 2001.

[Lensanity]

6/24
2/7


/thread

[Akrazotile]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/06/sports/06lebron_CA0/articleLarge.jpg


http://i.minus.com/ipWW8ZafqTAqc.gif

[Akrazotile]

Incidently, Kobe hung a 33-7-7 .513 FG% series against a Spurs team that allowed a third-best 88.4 ppg on a second best .419 FG% in 2001.



Yeah right :yaohappy:

[bdreason]

Maybe you missed the '04 NBA Finals?

[And1AllDay]

Kobe's a better shooter so he would probably average more points on that volume of shots. But, then again, he isn't as good or as willing a passer, so GS would probably focus the defense more on him. Regardless, the end result would be a loss so I'm not sure what your point is, except to hate on LeBron.

Truth be told

[knicksman]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/06/sports/06lebron_CA0/articleLarge.jpg


Nothing more beta than bran stans:lol

[sportjames23]

yeah and you sit here all day typing novels trying to explain how somebody so dominant in the regular season could be such a chump in the playoffs

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:


Damn, son. :oldlol:

[FKAri]

3ball ethering bran stans as always :oldlol: :oldlol:

nigguh do you see how the only posters agreeing with OP in here are Kobestans? Not a single neutral poster is agreeing with OP. Unless you want to label Laz, Kblaze, etc Lebronstans :oldlol:

[STATUTORY]

nigguh do you see how the only posters agreeing with OP in here are Kobestans? Not a single neutral poster is agreeing with OP. Unless you want to label Laz, Kblaze, etc Lebronstans :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: please point out the neutral posters in this thread

:facepalm

[3ball]

I doubt Kobe would have done any worse than MJ did in the first round of the '87 playoffs (and in Jordan's highest scoring season), and against a fading 59-23 Celtics team. 35.7 ppg on a .417 FG% in a sweeping series loss, which included a 9-30 clinching game three performance (and with Oakley hanging a 20-15 series to back him up.)
I'd feel bad if I had your basketball knowledge - because you don't understand the game of basketball... I can tell you've never played basketball in your life.

You're just one of the MANY white guy nerds that saw guys jumping high on TV one day and decided to get into the game, even though you had zero background in it, and possibly even resented tall hoopers your whole life... But the game looked cool and interesting, so you researched and learned some periphery stats about the game - but you don't understand how the game works at all.

When Charles Oakley, a man with zero offensive game other than hitting mid-range jumpers, is forced to be your 2nd option and score 20 ppg for your team, then your team's offense is HORRIBLE.. Your team is so barren of offensive help, that you have to rely on a non-offensive player for a chunk of the offense.

Have you ever played in an AAU game, and your team blows the other team away by literally 50 points?... That happens a lot in AAU... Well, for the losing team, there is always 1 or 2 guys that still scored like, 22 or 17 points or something - SOMEONE has to score.. That doesn't mean the team had a good offense or the star player had any legitimate help - they obviously didn't.

Btw, another example of you not understanding how the game really works is you bragging about the Bulls making the 2nd Round in 1994... MJ put the team in that position - he had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him...

So before you say "Kobe could've led the Bulls to a championship in 1994", ask yourself whether he could've led the Bulls to a 3-peat in the first place - because without that, it doesn't matter whether they could've won in 1994 - they wouldn't be 3-peat champs in 1994 so who cares.. Could Kobe have averaged the 36/7/8 on 53% that MJ did to 3-peat from 1991-1993?.. I think we know the answer to that: no.. Therefore, it makes no sense to contemplate whether he could replace MJ in 1994 and lead MJ's 3-peat team to 4th straight ring.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd feel bad if I had your basketball knowledge - because you don't understand the game of basketball... I can tell you've never played basketball in your life.

You're just one of the MANY white guy nerds that saw guys jumping high on TV one day and decided to get into the game, even though you had zero background in it, and possibly even resented tall hoopers your whole life... But the game looked cool and interesting, so you researched and learned some periphery stats about the game - but you don't understand how the game works at all.

When Charles Oakley, a man with zero offensive game other than hitting mid-range jumpers, is forced to be your 2nd option and score 20 ppg for your team, then your team's offense is HORRIBLE.. Your team is so barren of offensive help, that you have to rely on a non-offensive player for a chunk of the offense.

Have you ever played in an AAU game, and your team blows the other team away by literally 50 points?... That happens a lot in AAU... Well, for the losing team, there is always 1 or 2 guys that still scored like, 22 or 17 points or something - SOMEONE has to score.. That doesn't mean the team had a good offense or the star player had any legitimate help - they obviously didn't.

Btw, another example of you not understanding how the game really works is you bragging about the Bulls making the 2nd Round in 1994... MJ put the team in that position - he had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him...

So before you say "Kobe could've led the Bulls to a championship in 1994", ask yourself whether he could've led the Bulls to a 3-peat in the first place - because without that, it doesn't matter whether they could've won in 1994 - they wouldn't be 3-peat champs in 1994 so who cares.. Could Kobe have averaged the 36/7/8 on 53% that MJ did to 3-peat from 1991-1993?.. I think we know the answer to that: no.. Therefore, it makes no sense to contemplate whether he could replace MJ in 1994 and lead MJ's 3-peat team to 4th straight ring.


The irony of this post :lol

[3ball]

The irony of this post :lol
what's the irony?

btw, what do you think of the last paragraph - what good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place?

if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.

[SouBeachTalents]

what's the irony?

btw, what do you think of the last paragraph - what good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place?

if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.

You're asking if I think if you add Kobe to the '94 Bulls do they win the title? Yes, I'd say they'd be overwhelming favorites to do so. Do I think Kobe 4peats '91-'94? No, he wins maybe 1-2 in that span

[kshutts1]

what's the irony?

btw, what do you think of the last paragraph - what good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place?

if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.

I question your use of the word "needed". They "got" that from MJ. But, considering they won in 6 games or less every time, did they really "need" it?

You like to act as if things are black and white; as if what Jordan did HAD to be replicated for the end result (Bulls title) to be the same.
You like to act as though Kobe (or any other fill-in) would have had the exact same contributions from his supporting players.
Neither of those are facts. Neither of those are requirements.

Jordan "did" average that (I'm trusting your research), but that does not mean that someone else "needs" to.

[kshutts1]

Let's say Pau and Lamar got hurt before the 2010 Finals and Phil said:


"We have no offense except Kobe, so **** it.. Let's turn these Finals into an experiment - we'll just clearout for Kobe everytime and see how much he can score.

We'll put all 4 teammates behind the 3-point line on the weakside, which no one has ever done before as an ongoing strategy - this will give him THE most secluded clearouts in history".
And let's say the other team obliged - over and over and over again, they allow Kobe the most secluded clearouts in history, WITHOUT double-teaming.

Now what would happen if Kobe averaged 35 ppg on 35 shot attempts and 39.8%?
How would you know that the clear-outs were the "most secluded in history"? You famously admit to never watching games.
What of other defensive nuances that were present? Cheating/helping defenders?
Lastly, what would you consider a more ideal strategy for that Cavs team, with all else being equal, to employ?

Based on your past "efficiency" arguments, I'll assume you'd prefer the Cavs feed the rock to Mozgov :facepalm

[funnystuff]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%
bahahahaha :applause:

[3ball]

bahahahaha :applause:


3 problems that make firecolangelo's post not analogous as he intended, and therefore dumb:


1) Kobe never got clearouts in the 2010 Finals

2) Kobe never got the most secluded clearouts in history in the 2010 Finals

3) Kobe was not played single-coverage in the 2010 NBA Finals

[HurricaneKid]

what's the irony?


The irony is that you don't get ball. On any basic level. I coach AAU. My middle schoolers have a better handle on the game.

[funnystuff]

3 problems that make firecolangelo's post not analogous as he intended, and therefore dumb:


1) Kobe never got clearouts in the 2010 Finals

2) Kobe never got the most secluded clearouts in history in the 2010 Finals

3) Kobe was not played single-coverage in the 2010 NBA Finals
I can null all these points with one simple point that even you should understand..

1/2/3) Kobe CANNOT and DOES NOT pass so why the f*** would they play him any different then what you are pointing out????

[3ball]

The irony is that you don't get ball. On any basic level. I coach AAU. My middle schoolers have a better handle on the game.
What part about ball don't I get?

You guys don't even understand and won't acknowledge spacing or it's sport-changing effect on the game.

There isn't one poster on here with any real playing experience.. And most posters don't have good analytical ability either.. So it's a double whammy

You coached an AAU team - that's great - doesn't mean you know about the game - firemen and plumbers coach AAU... I'm not trying to be vindictive here - but your team likely sucks, with poor strategy, players, and fundamentals, like most AAU teams do.. If you coach AAU, you know that there's only 2-3 teams every year that get the state's best players - the state's best players always play on the same AAU powerhouses (and I played on one - the Anderson Wilson Warriors - we made nationals every year from 14U to 17U, including winning it at all 14U and placing 3rd in 15U.. Played with Bonzi Wells, Courtney James and almost every guy we had was D1).
.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


How would you know that the clear-outs were the "most secluded in history"?



It's common knowledge.. Those type of clearouts (seen above, where 3 or 4 players are behind the 3-point line on the weakside) have VIRTUALLY NEVER been used other than random, 1-off situations that occur a few times a year.

But these clearouts have virtually never been used as an ongoing strategy in any playoff series EVER.. This is a fact - we have NEVER seen Kobe, MJ, or any other player with the type of insane clearout seen above - but Lebron got these repeatedly throughout the conference finals and Finals.. It's a joke that he shot needed 35 shots to get 35 points while shooting 39.8%, and yet the media gives him props for it..

It was like an experiment to see how many points Lebron could score by giving him secluded isolations over and over with no double-teaming... And 35 points on 35 shots with only 39% was the result - nowhere NEAR what other guys would do in the same spot (Kobe, MJ, Bird, Oscar, Elgin, West, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, 2011 Dirk, etc, etc).
.

[funnystuff]

It's common knowledge.. Those type of clearouts (seen above, where 3 or 4 players are behind the 3-point line on the weakside) have VIRTUALLY NEVER been used other than random, 1-off situations that occur a few times a year.

But these clearouts have virtually never been used as an ongoing strategy in any playoff series EVER.. This is a fact - we have NEVER seen Kobe, MJ, or any other player with the type of insane clearout seen above - but Lebron got these repeatedly throughout the conference finals and Finals.. It's a joke that he shot needed 35 shots to get 35 points while shooting 39.8%, and yet the media gives him props for it..

It was like an experiment to see how many points Lebron could score by giving him secluded isolations over and over with no double-teaming... And 35 points on 35 shots with only 39% was the result - nowhere NEAR what other guys would do in the same spot (Kobe, MJ, Bird, Oscar, Elgin, West, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, 2011 Dirk, etc, etc).
.
It's like you have no understanding of the game or it just really bothers you that Lebron is a great passer. I think the former is more likely.


Notice how you didn't mention Magic in that list? Understand now?


You're a disgrace to the fan base of basketball and I do not know why i'm wasting my time on such scum. But hey, some food for thought. :cheers:

[NumberSix]

Kobe

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-02-2015/p6jsvL.gif


What of other defensive nuances that were present? Cheating/helping defenders?



You need to understand that players get BENCHED for hugging their man and not playing proper man-to-man defense - for example, if Stockton and Hornacek were hugging corner shooters Kerr and Kukoc in the GIF above, they would be summarily benched (btw, that's MJ's game winner in 1998 Finals, in case you didn't notice).

But this is the dumbness of today's fan who never played the game themselves... They literally think man-to-man defense means you have to hug your man at all times... Like, I can't explain how dumb this is.. Of course, they wouldn't think this if they had actually WATCHED games from previous eras.. But of course, they haven't watched and prefer to spout off with erroneous and ludicrous claims about man-to-man defense instead.

Man-to-man defenders have always been taught to sag off their man and play halfway in between their man and the ball - this is FUNDAMENTAL man-to-man defense and it's been played this way since basketball was invented.

The Illegal Defense Guidelines in previous eras did NOT change the way man-to-man defense has always been played by forcing guys to hug their man - that's ludicrous.. And that's why we see WITH OUR OWN EYES that guys sagged off their man as a standard every possession - I'm going to make a separate thread showing how the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to sag into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds in almost any scenario, which is why any old game SHOWS defenders sagging way off 3-point shooters, often into the paint.
.

[3ball]

Lastly, what would you consider a more ideal strategy for that Cavs team, with all else being equal, to employ?



Play whatever optimal brand of basketball IS AVAILABLE based on the current rules and playing environment.

In today's game, the Warriors, Spurs and 2011 Mavs all move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions - guys like Diaw and Patty Mills aren't just waiting around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, they're tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, these role players play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now - that's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - because it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.
.

[Fire Colangelo]

why would you criticize someone for using boxscores when you yourself just made the laziest argument possible citing career averages ? A 5 year old can detail what you just posted. 3ball, in the post you quoted, did not even cite a single box score stat.. he simply gave explanations and logic in word form.

3ball, for all his bias, actually articulated and applied reason for his opinion.. and you did nothing to refute it.

Duno what you're reading but he basically Kobe is just as good a passer as Lebron because he averages similar assists with less usage...?

If that's not box score watching idk what it is.



So I posted stats which points to Lebron as the better scorer to show him that numbers don't mean everything....

Problem?

[Lebron23]

Duno what you're reading but he basically Kobe is just as good a passer as Lebron because he averages similar assists with less usage...?

If that's not box score watching idk what it is.



So I posted stats which points to Lebron as the better scorer to show him that numbers don't mean everything....

Problem?


Fire Colangelo is on a roll. I wish Jeff bring back the rep system. I am giving you some green bars.

[3ball]

Duno what you're reading but he basically Kobe is just as good a passer as Lebron because he averages similar assists with less usage...?

If that's not box score watching idk what it is.


The bolded above is you being dumb again... USAGE = FGA + TO....... THAT'S IT.

Usage has virtually NOTHING to do with ball-domination.. It's better to just accept the truth rather then have no compunction for being wrong over and over and over again.

Also, my post explained QUALITATIVELY why Kobe > Lebron.. I would never use stats to say Kobe > Lebron... Obviously, that doesn't work.

But I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.





Jordan is a stats monster so you can get by using stats to justify Jordan > LeBron....


There isn't one aspect of Lebron's career that matches MJ, so I don't need stats to justify MJ over Lebron either.

I can use the eye test to see that MJ is better in every aspect of the game (except maybe def rebounds).

I can also look at his superior accolades, worship testimony that he's the GOAT from every great player to ever play, and knowledge of his intangibles and clutch.
.

[Lebron23]

Fire Colangelo is destroying 3balls in this thread.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Fire Colangelo is destroying 3balls in this thread.

you really are trying to convince yourself of that aren't you :lol :lol

[Fire Colangelo]

The bolded above is you being dumb again... USAGE = FGA + TO....... THAT'S IT.

Usage has virtually NOTHING to do with ball-domination.. It's better to just accept the truth rather then have no compunction for being wrong over and over and over again.

Also, my post explained QUALITATIVELY why Kobe > Lebron.. I would never use stats to say Kobe > Lebron... Obviously, that doesn't work.

But I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.



There isn't one aspect of Lebron's career that matches MJ, so I don't need stats to justify MJ over Lebron either.

I can use the eye test to see that MJ is better in every aspect of the game (except maybe def rebounds).

I can also look at his superior accolades, worship testimony that he's the GOAT from every great player to ever play, and knowledge of his intangibles and clutch.
.

Hey buddy, you're the one that brought up usage, not me.

You basically said Kobe is just as good as a playmaker based on his simile assist numbers + speculation on your part.

To which I refuted: watch the ****ing game and see that Lebron is a better passer/playmaker than Kobe, or accept that LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe

You can't have it both ways.... Oh hey stats say that they average similar assist numbers so they're probably equal passers, but eye test says Kobe is the better scorer because... I said so. Lol...

[3ball]

Hey buddy, you're the one that brought up usage, not me.
I never brought up usage itt... You made that up... You erroneously thought ball-domination had to do with usage, when it didn't...

Usage = FGA + turnovers... That's it... Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.

But I realize you're trolling hard now... So i'll ignore you from now on...

[3ball]

Jordan "did" average that (I'm trusting your research), but that does not mean that someone else "needs" to.


The stats are accurate - they're taken directly from bballref - no on refutes them because they're accurate and easily verifiable.

But here's the thing - Kobe's playoff and Finals stats were never anywhere NEAR Jordan's.. So regardless of whether MJ's 36/7/8 on 53% was needed during that first 3 Finals, Kobe's Finals averages of 25/5/5 on 45% wouldn't be enough.

Of course, MJ's stats WERE needed to win each time.. These guys play 82 games a year, and by playoff time, elite teams are well-oiled machines.. In the 1991 Finals, that well-oiled machine along with MJ's goat stats culminated in the Bulls needing a game-tying bucket at the end of Game 3 to prevent going down 2-1, with 2 more games in LA (2-3-2 format).

With Kobe's inferior stats and performance, the Bulls lose that game - they aren't within a bucket at the end... With that loss, they probably lose the series - playoff series usually turn on 1 deciding game, and Game 3 was that game in the 1991 Finals.. The Lakers were VISIBLY DEFEATED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPYTCs8sZ2Q&t=4m55s) at the end of that OT marathon in their own building - you could see on their face that they knew the series was over.
.

[Fire Colangelo]

I never brought up usage itt... You made that up... You erroneously thought ball-domination had to do with usage, when it didn't...

Usage = FGA + turnovers... That's it... Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.

But I realize you're trolling hard now... So i'll ignore you from now on...

lol okay then my bad; ball domination then...

My point still stands.... you speculated that Kobe would average similar assists if he dominated the ball more, which was your argument for saying that Kobe is an equal passer to LeBron.

Yes, or no?

Who's the better playmaker between Kobe and LeBron? You've been avoiding my main points and been going off on a word I misused for the past couple of posts now.

[3ball]

lol okay then my bad; ball domination then...

My point still stands.... you speculated that Kobe would average similar assists if he dominated the ball more, which was your argument for saying that Kobe is an equal passer to LeBron.

Yes, or no?

Who's the better playmaker between Kobe and LeBron? You've been avoiding my main points and been going off on a word I misused for the past couple of posts now.
The problem is that your assessment of Kobe and Lebron's passing doesn't consider ball-domination AT ALL... To you, it makes no difference if one guy suboptimally dominates the ball more than starting PG's and the other guy doesn't... But to think that way is DUMB, boss.

So I'm not "speculating" that Kobe would average more assists - I KNOW he would - ANY player's assists will increase if they dominate the ball more.

It's not just intuitive - we could easily prove it by looking at games in Kobe's career where he played point guard - I guarantee that he averaged 8-10 apg, maybe more..

And again, my post was qualitative in describing why Kobe > Lebron... Specifically, I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.

[Fire Colangelo]

The problem is that your assessment of Kobe and Lebron's passing doesn't consider ball-domination AT ALL... To you, it makes no difference if one guy suboptimally dominates the ball more than starting PG's and the other guy doesn't... But to think that way is DUMB, boss.

So I'm not "speculating" that Kobe would average more assists - I KNOW he would - ANY player's assists will increase if they dominate the ball more.

It's not just intuitive - we could easily prove it by looking at games in Kobe's career where he played point guard - I guarantee that he averaged 8-10 apg, maybe more..

And again, my post was qualitative in describing why Kobe > Lebron... Specifically, I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.

So Kobe is a better passer/playmaker than LeBron?

[choppermagic]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%

How did he get a pass for WINNING a game 7 series against the series in 2010? He also grabbed 15 boards in a game decided by rebounding and scored 10 points in the crucial 4th quarter of game 7. And despite all of that, idiots like you still like to pick on a one game FG percentage in which a championship was WON. smh...

[Dro]

Play whatever optimal brand of basketball IS AVAILABLE based on the current rules and playing environment.

In today's game, the Warriors, Spurs and 2011 Mavs all move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions - guys like Diaw and Patty Mills aren't just waiting around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, they're tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, these role players play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now - that's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - because it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.
.
This is an excellent post.:applause:

[UK2K]

Given that he got a pass for scoring 25 on 40% in 08 finals as well his 6/24 performance in 10....

Yeah I'd give him a pass for scoring 35 on 40%

40% isnt even that bad.

Its one shot per game from 45% for heavy scorers. Waaaa.

[Fire Colangelo]

40% isnt even that bad.

Its one shot per game from 45% for heavy scorers. Waaaa.

Never said it was bad....

Never once had I criticized LeBron or Kobe for shooting 40% lol... I only brought it up because I've never criticized Kobe for scoring 28 on 40% before, so why would I KILL him for scoring 35 on 40% like the OP implied?

[Fire Colangelo]

The problem is that your assessment of Kobe and Lebron's passing doesn't consider ball-domination AT ALL... To you, it makes no difference if one guy suboptimally dominates the ball more than starting PG's and the other guy doesn't... But to think that way is DUMB, boss.

So I'm not "speculating" that Kobe would average more assists - I KNOW he would - ANY player's assists will increase if they dominate the ball more.

It's not just intuitive - we could easily prove it by looking at games in Kobe's career where he played point guard - I guarantee that he averaged 8-10 apg, maybe more..

And again, my post was qualitative in describing why Kobe > Lebron... Specifically, I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.

Never said that, I just said LeBron is a better playmaker than Kobe. He's a better passer, and has better vision. My assessment comes from watching the games.

Why don't you list a stretch of games where Kobe played point guard?

I'll start with LeBron.

LeBron was inserted as a point guard when Mo Williams went down for 12 games in 2010 and averaged:

32/7/11

[3ball]

The problem is that your assessment of Kobe and Lebron's passing doesn't consider ball-domination AT ALL... To you, it makes no difference if one guy suboptimally dominates the ball more than starting PG's and the other guy doesn't... But to think that way is DUMB, boss.

So I'm not "speculating" that Kobe would average more assists - I KNOW he would - ANY player's assists will increase if they dominate the ball more.

It's not just intuitive - we could easily prove it by looking at games in Kobe's career where he played point guard - I guarantee that he averaged 8-10 apg, maybe more..

And again, my post was qualitative in describing why Kobe > Lebron... Specifically, I know Kobe is better because his game facilitates superior chemistry and team strategy, so his teams are have a higher ceiling - period - that's why Lebron is only 2/6.





http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/yu7DqT.gif


So Kobe is a better passer/playmaker than LeBron?



OF COURSE I think Kobe is a better passer and playmaker - I thought the post made that pretty clear.

The only reason Lebron averages more assists is because he dominates the ball - by doing so, he's sacrificed winning for assists and a perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that dominates the ball calls out plays like a point guard.

But the reality is that the type of passing MJ and Kobe did (seen above) is more skillful and more unpredictable and devastating to a defense.. And again, if they dominated the ball like Lebron, their assists would be FAR higher than Lebron's.

[GIF REACTION]

I heard you can post really large images on this forum

Anyone know anything about this?

[ShawkFactory]

OF COURSE I think Kobe is a better passer and playmaker - I thought the post made that pretty clear.

The only reason Lebron averages more assists is because he dominates the ball - by doing so, he's sacrificed winning for assists and a perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that dominates the ball calls out plays like a point guard.

But the reality is that the type of passing MJ and Kobe did (seen above) is more skillful and more unpredictable and devastating to a defense.. And again, if they dominated the ball like Lebron, their assists would be FAR higher than Lebron's.
Kobe himself said that Lebron was one of the best passers he's ever seen. Stop looking at assist numbers.

[Fire Colangelo]

OF COURSE I think Kobe is a better passer and playmaker - I thought the post made that pretty clear.

The only reason Lebron averages more assists is because he dominates the ball - by doing so, he's sacrificed winning for assists and a perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that dominates the ball calls out plays like a point guard.

But the reality is that the type of passing MJ and Kobe did (seen above) is more skillful and more unpredictable and devastating to a defense.. And again, if they dominated the ball like Lebron, their assists would be FAR higher than Lebron's.

Lol ok

"Kobe is a better passer than LeBron" *posts MJ gif*

:roll: :roll:

Chris Paul averages 10 assists a game.

But yeah, I'm sure Kobe could do it if he dominated the ball more.



I could use the same argument to say LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe.

Kobe needed 27 shots to average 35, while LeBron only needed 20 shots to average 30.

If LeBron took 27 shots, he'd average more than 35.

lol see how dumb this sounds...?

[3ball]

Kobe needed 27 shots to average 35, while LeBron only needed 20 shots to average 30.

If LeBron took 27 shots, he'd average more than 35.


:wtf:
Lebron took 35 shots per game in the 2015 Finals and only got 35 ppg - he averaged 27 shots for the entire playoffs and only averaged 30 ppg, not 35+ like you said he would.

The reality is that IF Steve Kerr played Kobe the same way he did Lebron (never double-teaming and allowing Lebron the most secluded clearouts ever), Kobe would've done FAR better than 39% and 35 ppg - he would've averaged well over 40, and the Cavs would've won.

Of course - that's the whole point - Kerr would NEVER play Kobe the same way, because Kobe is a better player, so he commands a double team - otoh, Lebron's inferior skills and suboptimal style allow him to get exploited by NOT double-teaming him - his isolation FG% was a horrific 33% - it's ALWAYS the correct decision to let someone shoot 33% over and over again.
.

[3ball]

CP3 averages 10 apg - but yeah, I'm sure Kobe could do it if he dominated the ball more.



THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT - Kobe wouldn't need to get 10 apg because Lebron only averages 6.5!!!!!!!...

Lebron's assist numbers are average for a point guard and ball-dominator - how many times do I have to state this fact?

By dominating the ball more than starting PG's, Lebron has sacrificed winning in exchange for slightly higher assists and perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that pounds the ball at the top of the key.
.

[Lebron23]

Fire Colangelo is roasting 3balls. 3balls needs to tap out.

[Kvnzhangyay]

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT - Kobe wouldn't need to get 10 apg because Lebron only averages 6.5!!!!!!!...

Lebron's assist numbers are average for a point guard and ball-dominator - how many times do I have to state this fact?

By dominating the ball more than starting PG's, Lebron has sacrificed winning in exchange for slightly higher assists and perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that pounds the ball at the top of the key.
.

Except it's not casual fans. It's people that have HAD to guard or decide how to guard Lebron, and people that have spent their lives playing basketball.

No matter how hard you argue, you don't have the qualifications to refute what they are saying. That is, unless you call former NBA players and coaches along with current ones, "casual fans", and you truly believe you know more than them:roll:

For example, Kobe: https://youtu.be/2K0L4tLvRDs?t=3m17s

[sdot_thadon]

So this is the newest shtick, tell me more about how Lebron is a point guard and kobe is a better passer, at this rate you should tell me how shaq is a great ft shooter next.

[Fire Colangelo]

:wtf:
Lebron took 35 shots per game in the 2015 Finals and only got 35 ppg - he averaged 27 shots for the entire playoffs and only averaged 30 ppg, not 35+ like you said he would.

The reality is that IF Steve Kerr played Kobe the same way he did Lebron (never double-teaming and allowing Lebron the most secluded clearouts ever), Kobe would've done FAR better than 39% and 35 ppg - he would've averaged well over 40, and the Cavs would've won.

Of course - that's the whole point - Kerr would NEVER play Kobe the same way, because Kobe is a better player, so he commands a double team - otoh, Lebron's inferior skills and suboptimal style allow him to get exploited by NOT double-teaming him - his isolation FG% was a horrific 33% - it's ALWAYS the correct decision to let someone shoot 33% over and over again.
.

I was talking about Lebron's 2010 season vs Kobe's almighty 2006 season.

[knicksman]

what 3ball is trying to say is curry is capable of averaging more assists than bran same with jordan with his 32/8/8 season and 10 apg in the finals.But in his 2nd 3peat season, jordan only averaged 4 apg which is even lesser than kobe. Just because kobe/jordan/curry sacrificed apg to play off the ball doesnt mean they are lesser passers. They care more about rings thats why theyre winners while bran is 2/6. And you can include brans idol(oscar) who had 0 rings as the man.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Play whatever optimal brand of basketball IS AVAILABLE based on the current rules and playing environment.

In today's game, the Warriors, Spurs and 2011 Mavs all move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions - guys like Diaw and Patty Mills aren't just waiting around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, they're tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, these role players play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now - that's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - because it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.
.

fuccing roasted these dudes

:applause: :applause:

[Hey Yo]

Originally posted by 3ball

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.
Reaching even further to the bottom of the barrel.

Like I said earlier, your schtick is stale and moldy.

[3ball]

So this is the newest shtick, tell me more about how Lebron is a point guard and kobe is a better passer, at this rate you should tell me how shaq is a great ft shooter next.


Time of Possession Per Game 2015 Playoffs


John Wall... 10.0
LeBron James... 9.3
Damian Lillard... 8.3
Chris Paul... 8.1
Derrick Rose... 7.9
Tyreke Evans... 7.3
Mike Conley... 7.0
Stephen Curry... 6.8
James Harden... 6.7
Michael Carter-Williams... 6.7
Deron Williams... 6.5
Jeff Teague... 6.4
Kyrie Irving... 6.3
Tony Parker... 6.0
Isaiah Thomas... 5.9
Jose Juan Barea... 5.8
Kyle Lowry... 4.9
Jarrett Jack... 4.7


Time of possession is a point-guard stat - Harden and Lebron's the only non-PG on the list - and this is ALWAYS the case - Harden and Lebron were the only non-pg's on the list last year too

[sdot_thadon]

Time of Possession Per Game 2015 Playoffs


John Wall... 10.0
LeBron James... 9.3
Damian Lillard... 8.3
Chris Paul... 8.1
Derrick Rose... 7.9
Tyreke Evans... 7.3
Mike Conley... 7.0
Stephen Curry... 6.8
James Harden... 6.7
Michael Carter-Williams... 6.7
Deron Williams... 6.5
Jeff Teague... 6.4
Kyrie Irving... 6.3
Tony Parker... 6.0
Isaiah Thomas... 5.9
Jose Juan Barea... 5.8
Kyle Lowry... 4.9
Jarrett Jack... 4.7


Time of possession is a point-guard stat - Harden and Lebron's the only non-PG on the list - and this is ALWAYS the case - Harden and Lebron were the only non-pg's on the list last year too
He's not a pg, period. The point forward thing fits better cause its not a pure pg type of role. For one and most importantly he scores way too much to be a pg. You can post time of possession all you want it's irrelevant, he's an outlier. He's not like any of those guys on that list. That should have been your 1st observation seeing the list in the 1st place. Once you actually take the guy for what he is then you'll get it. Jordan was an anomally at sg, similar to the way Lebron is at sf.

[knicksman]

He's not a pg, period. The point forward thing fits better cause its not a pure pg type of role. For one and most importantly he scores way too much to be a pg. You can post time of possession all you want it's irrelevant, he's an outlier. He's not like any of those guys on that list. That should have been your 1st observation seeing the list in the 1st place. Once you actually take the guy for what he is then you'll get it. Jordan was an anomally at sg, similar to the way Lebron is at sf.

He is a point forward because he wants stats. jordan/kobe could play point forward if they wanted to but they knew its not a winning style.

[sdot_thadon]

He is a point forward because he wants stats. jordan/kobe could play point forward if they wanted to but they knew its not a winning style.
It's not point forward unless you're a forward I'd imagine? It's not a winning style, yet he has more finals appearances and the same amount of titles as certain "franchises" out there knicksman....

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe DIRECTLY stated that Lebron was one of the best passers that he has ever seen.

What's the narrative there? Kobe is a no nonsense guy, as so many people love. He said that WITHOUT QUESTION.

You think that Kobe Bryant was trying to preserve Lebron's legacy? Or was he speaking the truth as he pretty much always does?

[And1AllDay]

He is a point forward because he wants stats. jordan/kobe could play point forward if they wanted to but they knew its not a winning style.

Are you saying LeBron James doesn't have a winning style? Where have you been the last 4 years? lol

[Heavincent]

Why don't you list a stretch of games where Kobe played point guard?


He's been the PG for most of his career.

[knicksman]

It's not point forward unless you're a forward I'd imagine? It's not a winning style, yet he has more finals appearances and the same amount of titles as certain "franchises" out there knicksman....

Of course he has to cheat to win with that style dumby.

[knicksman]

Are you saying LeBron James doesn't have a winning style? Where have you been the last 4 years? lol

if you think stacking in a weak eastern conference proves your point then you definitely are one of the dumbest on this board:lol

[Rose'sACL]

if you think stacking in a weak eastern conference proves your point then you definitely are one of the dumbest on this board:lol
but lebron only won when heat played more games than the team they faced in the finals.

to answer OP:

LeBron James 2015 finals: 35.8 PPG 8.8 APG 13.3 RPG on 39.8% shooting
Kobe Bryant 2010 finals: 28.6 PPG 3.9 APG 8.0 RPG on 40.5% Shooting

So kobe shot 0.7% better while scoring 7.2 PPG lesser than lebron in 2015 finals. LeBron also had way more rebounds per game and assists per game.
I don't get how idiots like you and OP function in the real world if you are so retarded.

[aj1987]

but lebron only won when heat played more games than the team they faced in the finals.

to answer OP:

LeBron James 2015 finals: 35.8 PPG 8.8 APG 13.3 RPG on 39.8% shooting
Kobe Bryant 2010 finals: 28.6 PPG 3.9 APG 8.0 RPG on 40.5% Shooting

So kobe shot 0.7% better while scoring 7.2 PPG lesser than lebron in 2015 finals. LeBron also had way more rebounds per game and assists per game.
I don't get how idiots like you and OP function in the real world if you are so retarded.
Kobe's TS% was 53% and LeBron's was 48%.

[Rose'sACL]

Kobe's TS% was 53% and LeBron's was 48%.
lebron's stats still look better even with 5 TS% less. Just look at them. it would be close if kob had 60% TS given that 2010 celtics were almost identical to warriors in their defensive ratings. That is why i didn't use 2008 celtics because they were ofcourse better than 2015 warriors on defense.

[aj1987]

lebron's stats still look better even with 5 TS% less. Just look at them. it would be close if kob had 60% TS given that 2010 celtics were almost identical to warriors in their defensive ratings. That is why i didn't use 2008 celtics because they were ofcourse better than 2015 warriors on defense.
I agree with you. Just pointing out that TS is a better indicator of efficiency.

[sdot_thadon]

Of course he has to cheat to win with that style dumby.
Indulge me on how exactly he was able to "cheat". Was some certain technique or rule available to only him and no one else? What rule(s) did he break in said cheating?

[HOoopCityJones]

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT - Kobe wouldn't need to get 10 apg because Lebron only averages 6.5!!!!!!!...

Lebron's assist numbers are average for a point guard and ball-dominator - how many times do I have to state this fact?

By dominating the ball more than starting PG's, Lebron has sacrificed winning in exchange for slightly higher assists and perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that pounds the ball at the top of the key.
.

3ball straight bodied ni99as. Damn. :biggums:

[sdot_thadon]

3ball straight bodied ni99as. Damn. :biggums:
Can't really see how, in comparison to pg his scoring advantage is similar to their assist advantages. If he's a pg, he's obviously not a traditional one. I still don't see how he can be compared to point guards in the 1st place.

[HOoopCityJones]

Can't really see how, in comparison to pg his scoring advantage is similar to their assist advantages. If he's a pg, he's obviously not a traditional one. I still don't see how he can be compared to point guards in the 1st place.

The thing is , you guys can't pick and choose when to embrace this as a strength only when it suites your agenda, it's either he is or he isn't.

[aj1987]

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT - Kobe wouldn't need to get 10 apg because Lebron only averages 6.5!!!!!!!...

Lebron's assist numbers are average for a point guard and ball-dominator - how many times do I have to state this fact?

By dominating the ball more than starting PG's, Lebron has sacrificed winning in exchange for slightly higher assists and perception as a Magic-type passer.

Of course, Lebron averages literally half the assists of Magic - but people still say he passes like Magic because when casual fans think of a good passer, they think of a point guard - a guy that pounds the ball at the top of the key.
.
RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG

[sdot_thadon]

The thing is , you guys can't pick and choose when to embrace this as a strength only when it suites your agenda, it's either he is or he isn't.
How can you pick and choose someone's skill set. He's a great scorer that happens to be a great passer. A point guard he is not though. It's a quick and lazy comparison. Do you consider Allen iverson to be a pg or 2 guard?

[3ball]

Time of Possession Per Game 2015 Playoffs


John Wall... 10.0
LeBron James... 9.3
Damian Lillard... 8.3
Chris Paul... 8.1
Derrick Rose... 7.9
Tyreke Evans... 7.3
Mike Conley... 7.0
Stephen Curry... 6.8
James Harden... 6.7
Michael Carter-Williams... 6.7
Deron Williams... 6.5
Jeff Teague... 6.4
Kyrie Irving... 6.3
Tony Parker... 6.0
Isaiah Thomas... 5.9
Jose Juan Barea... 5.8
Kyle Lowry... 4.9
Jarrett Jack... 4.7


Time of possession is a point-guard stat - Harden and Lebron's the only non-PG on the list - and this is ALWAYS the case - Harden and Lebron were the only non-pg's on the list last year too


If you guys aren't smart enough to realize that this proves Lebron is a point guard, then that's just too bad for you guys... I'm sorry... :confusedshrug:

But forget the stats above that prove Lebron is a point guard - you guys WATCH the games - you guys SEE Lebron dominating the ball more than Kyrie, Mo Williams, Chalmers and most starting point guards - this is a FACT just by watching the games...

So why try to deny it and say Lebron ISN'T a point guard, when he does every point guard role (namely ball-domination) more than anyone else on his team, and more than most PG's in the league???... It's sheer denial of something totally obvious - Lebron is a point guard - and he's ALWAYS been the PG for his teams...

Don't lie and say Chalmers, Mo Williams or Kyrie is the point guard - the stats above show that Lebron dominates the ball 50% more than Kyrie, and that's evident watching the games.

[RRR3]

Speaking of Kobe,
Remember when he dropped 50+ points on MJ and left him sobbing on the bench, contemplating retirement?

[sdot_thadon]

Was A.i. a point guard or a 2 guard?

[aj1987]

Too many ***** in my mouth.
Good for you, dude.

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG

[sdot_thadon]

Good for you, dude.

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG
:oldlol:

[SpaceJammeR]

having the most missed fg in nba and people consider him one of the best scorer and clutch. i thought people would kill him for this. i guess not

[3ball]

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG


due to ball-domination and higher time of possession - facts

[aj1987]

due to ball-domination and higher time of possession - facts

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG

Literally all round better stats while leading his team in PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG, over two straight title runs.

[sdot_thadon]

due to ball-domination and higher time of possession - facts
Or due to better. Sounds more logical.

[Hey Yo]

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG

Literally all round better stats while leading his team in PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG, over two straight title runs.



http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/62440923.jpg

[aj1987]

Oh wait, 3ball wants Chalmers to dominate the ball? Kyrie, who's an SG in a PG's body? Mo? Sure, lets give the ball to those "PG's", who're not even close to being on LeBron's level, when it comes to playmaking. He probably should've let JR and Shump handle the ball in the Finals. :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

Oh wait, 3ball wants Chalmers to dominate the ball? Kyrie, who's an SG in a PG's body? Mo? Sure, lets give the ball to those "PG's", who're not even close to being on LeBron's level, when it comes to playmaking. He probably should've let JR and Shump handle the ball in the Finals. :rolleyes:
That's the main detail this dude is oblivious to. Lebron has been the best playmaking option on every single roster of his career. He can't see through the *** goggles that there are more ways to play the game than the way his idol did.

[Cali Syndicate]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/62440923.jpg

Thats actually a dumb meme because johnny got ****ed up in the end...

[tpols]

That's the main detail this dude is oblivious to. Lebron has been the best playmaking option on every single roster of his career. He can't see through the *** goggles that there are more ways to play the game than the way his idol did.

You don't necessarily have to dominate the ball to be a great playmaker.

[3ball]

RS:

Kobe - 4.8 APG
LeBron - 6.9 APG

Kobe - 25.4 PPG
LeBron - 27.4 PPG

PO's:

Kobe - 4.7 APG
LeBron - 6.7 APG

Kobe - 25.6 PPG
LeBron - 28.2 PPG

Literally all round better stats while leading his team in PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG, over two straight title runs.
I'm talking about the assists - Lebron's higher assists are due to PG-level ball-domination and time of possession.

Kobe was 2nd option to Shaq for many years, which depressed his scoring.

But as a 1st option, Kobe's scoring numbers destroy Lebron's.
.

[RRR3]

Another legendary moment was when Kobe was still a teenager and was faking MJ out of his shoes in the ASG.

MJ was straight up shook

[aj1987]

I'm talking about the assists - Lebron's higher assists are due to PG-level ball-domination and time of possession.

Kobe was 2nd option to Shaq for many years, which depressed his scoring.

But as a 1st option, Kobe's scoring numbers destroy Lebron's.
.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

From my previous post:

Oh wait, 3ball wants Chalmers to dominate the ball? Kyrie, who's an SG in a PG's body? Mo? Sure, lets give the ball to those "PG's", who're not even close to being on LeBron's level, when it comes to playmaking. He probably should've let JR and Shump handle the ball in the Finals. :rolleyes:

Kobe after Shaq - 28.2 PPG on 21.7 FGA ('05-'15)
LeBron - 27.3 on 19.7 FGA (for his career)

0.9 fewer PPG on 2 fewer FGA's.

Where's the "destruction" of LeBron's numbers? Imbecile.


Oh, and lets not even get into the how Shaq commanded doubles and triples on almost every play, which left Kobe WIDE open. Like MJ on the Bulls.

[knicksman]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

From my previous post:

Oh wait, 3ball wants Chalmers to dominate the ball? Kyrie, who's an SG in a PG's body? Mo? Sure, lets give the ball to those "PG's", who're not even close to being on LeBron's level, when it comes to playmaking. He probably should've let JR and Shump handle the ball in the Finals. :rolleyes:

Kobe after Shaq - 28.2 PPG on 21.7 FGA ('05-'15)
LeBron - 27.3 on 19.7 FGA (for his career)

0.9 fewer PPG on 2 fewer FGA's.

Where's the "destruction" of LeBron's numbers? Imbecile.


Oh, and lets not even get into the how Shaq commanded doubles and triples on almost every play, which left Kobe WIDE open. Like MJ on the Bulls.


Is pippen a better passer than jordan? No but despite that, he still trusted him because pg and scoring are the 2 most incompatible roles. Just like qb and receiver. So when a player is the pg and scorer at the same time, then hes playing for stats and not rings. And that explains 2/6

[knicksman]

That's the main detail this dude is oblivious to. Lebron has been the best playmaking option on every single roster of his career. He can't see through the *** goggles that there are more ways to play the game than the way his idol did.
More like he understands the game more than you that he knows that brans style isnt winning style.

[3ball]

Kobe after Shaq - 28.2 PPG on 21.7 FGA ('05-'15)
LeBron - 27.3 on 19.7 FGA (for his career)

0.9 fewer PPG on 2 fewer FGA's.

Where's the "destruction" of LeBron's numbers? Imbecile.


Thanks for posting it - Kobe's numbers are better, even though you included the last 2 years when he was old an injured - Lebron is only 30, but whatever, it doesn't matter, because Kobe's scoring was still better, as you've shown - that's how big the scoring gap was post-Shaq.

You're also forgetting that the stats THEMSELVES aren't what made Kobe better than Lebron.. It's the WAY he got those stats - Kobe's superior scoring versatility made him less exploitable (you couldn't leave him open for jumpshots or let him clearout with no double-team).

By being elite in all areas of scoring, Kobe could overcome a wider range of opponent strategies, and find better chemistry with teammates, which maximized the team's ceiling.. This is why Kobe's Finals record is so far superior - when he has a team that can get to the Finals, he has superior capacity to beat elite competition.

[tpols]

You're also forgetting that the stats THEMSELVES aren't what made Kobe better than Lebron.. It's the WAY he got those stats - Kobe's superior scoring versatility made him less exploitable (you couldn't leave him open for jumpshots or let him clearout with no double-team).
[/I].


It's this that matters.

Lebron's ball dominance is beneficial for poor offensive teams since it masks offensive inability and allows a slug out (due to his elite ball security at big PF size).. however, on a team with multiple offensive weapons it decreases overall capacity.

[Young X]

Lebron's 2013 and 2014 Heat teams are literally #1 and #2 of all time at scoring from the field (eFG%).

LOL @ you fools acting like he hurts his teams. No, what hurt those teams were injuries to Wade and Bosh and rebounding. Their defense also got murdered by the Spurs who were making everything.

Last season his team was clearly outmatched by a huge margin. Dellevadova and Mozgov were his best offensive weapons and you idiots are still blaming him smh.

[sdot_thadon]

More like he understands the game more than you that he knows that brans style isnt winning style.
Seems more like preference than any type of understanding, but just so you remember his style has gotten him to the finals plenty of times and he's won 2. In what world is that not winning?


You don't necessarily have to dominate the ball to be a great playmaker.
I agree, but that happens to be the way he plays the game and is fairly successful. It is what it is.

[3ball]

It's this that matters.

Lebron's ball dominance is beneficial for poor offensive teams since it masks offensive inability and allows a slug out (due to his elite ball security at big PF size).. however, on a team with multiple offensive weapons it decreases overall capacity.


But people overrate the extent to which he carries those teams - people think he carried the 2009 and 2010 Cavs more than MJ carried his 80's Bulls teams.

This is easily proven false - Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games in 2009.. Compare that to MJ's supporting cast, who only added enough help to MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

Lebron's competition was worse, but if you think it was 19 games worse, than just think how much better MJ's 1989 playoff performance was - MJ made ECF and took the champs to 6 games - that's better than what Lebron did in 2009 or 2010 playoffs and it was against comp that was 19 games BETTER..

MJ didn't just lead his team further against competition that was 19 games BETTER, but he had the better stats: Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[The Iron Fist]

Not to mention the man was coming off of 4 straight finals going into his 5th with two of his teammates injured. As well as being involved in the Olympics in 12...

And people still find a way to hate.... Ridiculous
4 finals losses

the "Le" in "lebron", "losing equals bron"

[tpols]

But people overrate the extent to which he carries those teams - people think he carried the 2009 and 2010 Cavs more than MJ carried his 80's Bulls teams.

This is easily proven false - Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games in 2009.. Compare that to MJ's supporting cast, who only added enough help to MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

Lebron's competition was worse, but if you think it was 19 games worse, than just think how much better MJ's 1989 playoff performance was - MJ made ECF and took the champs to 6 games - that's better than what Lebron did in 2009 or 2010 playoffs and it was against comp that was 19 games BETTER..

MJ didn't just lead his team further against competition that was 19 games BETTER, but he had the better stats: Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

there's no need to compare regular seasons.. one man army's always perform better in the RS compared to the playoffs. Since the playoffs involve strategy and over and over play, which sparks adjustments.


For instance, the 2015 hawks could dominate the RS with kyle korver spacing the floor and allowing the offense to flow with less resistance as a result. but when the playoffs start you can "cut the head off the snake" so to speak.. and kill the body as a result. Once korver's spacing was neutralized by increased defensive attention, the whole offense collapsed.


The same concept applies to Lebron.. once coaches realized the only way bron could beat them was if they fell for his bluff and doubled him, resulting in wide open shots for his role players, they figured out single coverage was the best option.. since it would trade very high efficiency open 3 point shots for bron iso midrange jumpers.

[knicksman]

Seems more like preference than any type of understanding, but just so you remember his style has gotten him to the finals plenty of times and he's won 2. In what world is that not winning?


I agree, but that happens to be the way he plays the game and is fairly successful. It is what it is.

Yeah by cheating. By being a beta. Real men dont cheat. Theyd rather lose than being remembered a fakkit that has to stack teams just to win

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah by cheating. By being a beta. Real men dont cheat. Theyd rather lose than being remembered a fakkit that has to stack teams just to win
So again I'll ask, how did this "cheating" occur? Did he break a rule I was unaware of or have access to some technique no one else did? It's been proven that you pretty much don't make the top 10 without having stacked teams, beaten into the ground actually.

[And1AllDay]

Now what would happen if Kobe averaged 35 ppg on 35 shot attempts and 39.8%?

Dammit 3-ball and your lying ass, no one is ever going to take your stats seriously now.

3ball list of recent lies/made up bullshit:

-First Mozgov had "3 blocks per game" (when it was really like 1.4) WTF
-Then you said LeBron had 2 2-foot dunks in that 100 highlight video (where you were again proven as a liar)

Now you say LeBron took 35 shots in the Finals...

He actually took 32.6 you lying piece of shit. Can we seriously ban someone if they're repeatedly lying about stuff. Trolling I get, sometimes it's funny and people respond. But to blatantly and repeatedly lie about stats?

For the record, lying piece of shit, LeBron only shot over 35 shots in ONE game during the Finals (game 1).

[And1AllDay]

4 finals losses

the "Le" in "lebron", "losing equals bron"

:lol

See, now this guy is a troll. He's got his Lakers banner avatar (holding onto history since Kobe is very much irrelevant and the Lakers will remain that way for at least 5 MORE years)

But at least it was funny, no joke I legit laughed at the "Le" in LeBron. :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Dammit 3-ball and your lying ass, no one is ever going to take your stats seriously now.

3ball list of recent lies/made up bullshit:

-First Mozgov had "3 blocks per game" (when it was really like 1.4) WTF
-Then you said LeBron had 2 2-foot dunks in that 100 highlight video (where you were again proven as a liar)

Now you say LeBron took 35 shots in the Finals...

He actually took 32.6 you lying piece of shit. Can we seriously ban someone if they're repeatedly lying about stuff. Trolling I get, sometimes it's funny and people respond. But to blatantly and repeatedly lie about stats?

For the record, lying piece of shit, LeBron only shot over 35 shots in ONE game during the Finals (game 1).

wow an entire 2 shots off per game and you want him banned..

yall are shook as fucc.. :lol

why doesn't anybody try addressing anything he's saying instead of posting ten smiles and then calling him an idiot, he's actually discussing ball :confusedshrug:

whether you agree with him or not you morons have the responsibility of supplying a rebuttal,

yet you morons are clueless about basketball and can only go off what you see off bball reference because you began watching basketball 2 years ago ..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron set the new record for most missed shots in finals history

:roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

So again I'll ask, how did this "cheating" occur? Did he break a rule I was unaware of or have access to some technique no one else did? It's been proven that you pretty much don't make the top 10 without having stacked teams, beaten into the ground actually.


If youre a real man, you wouldve realized that what bran did is only done by fakkits. Never in history has a prime player teamed up with other superstars. And owners knew that there was a loophole in their rules but they trusted the players that they are man enough to never exploit it until beta bran came

[warriorfan]

If youre a real man, you wouldve realized that what bran did is only done by fakkits. Never in history has a prime player teamed up with other superstars. And owners knew that there was a loophole in their rules but they trusted the players that they are man enough to never exploit it until beta bran came

ether

[Kvnzhangyay]

If youre a real man, you wouldve realized that what bran did is only done by fakkits. Never in history has a prime player teamed up with other superstars. And owners knew that there was a loophole in their rules but they trusted the players that they are man enough to never exploit it until beta bran came

That means he's alpha then :coleman:

Exploiting every possible thing so he can win

[sdot_thadon]

If youre a real man, you wouldve realized that what bran did is only done by fakkits. Never in history has a prime player teamed up with other superstars. And owners knew that there was a loophole in their rules but they trusted the players that they are man enough to never exploit it until beta bran came
Real man?:coleman:
If you were a "real man" and not some insecure Internet troll you'd realize what lebron did wasn't exactly possible until recent years. And you'd also realize "real man" that nearly every player in the top 10 has had just as stacked teams or ones far more stacked than Lebron has. To call it cheating is funny, I suppose he broke some inginary rules and failed to meet imaginary standards that you don't even hold yourself to "real man". How in the hell could the owners not know there was a loophole, what kind of slow bus shit is that?

[Nash]

Lebron set the new record for most missed shots in finals history

:roll: :roll:
Kobe set the record for missed shots all time :biggums:

Pot, kettle, black

[Doranku]

Kobe set the record for missed shots all time :biggums:

Pot, kettle, black

That's a product of longevity more than anything.

Bran in the finals on the other hand... didn't even go the full 7 games and he still set the record. :oldlol:

[Nash]

That's a product of longevity more than anything.

Bran in the finals on the other hand... didn't even go the full 7 games and he still set the record. :oldlol:
product of longevity, its product of consistently taking and missing bad shots.