Pippen or Worthy?

[tamaraw08]

Who would you rather have in your team?
During their peak, if they switch teams, would their teams be as successful?

[3ball]

Who would you rather have in your team?
During their peak, if they switch teams, would their teams be as successful?
Worthy was a 3rd option (behind Kareem or Magic).

Pippen was a 2nd option, right behind MJ.

However, Worthy was the FAR superior scorer - enough to be a 25+ ppg player and #1 option.

I'd go with Worthy on most teams - most teams fill scoring needs first, and then defensive needs later.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen

[oarabbus]

Worthy was a 3rd option (behind Kareem or Magic).

Pippen was a 2nd option, right behind MJ.

However, Worthy was the FAR superior scorer - enough to be a 25+ ppg player and #1 option.

I'd go with Worthy on most teams - most teams fill scoring needs first, and then defensive needs later.


No agenda here folks :oldlol:

[Angel Face]

Scottie

[ClipperRevival]

Worthy was a 3rd option (behind Kareem or Magic).

Pippen was a 2nd option, right behind MJ.

However, Worthy was the FAR superior scorer - enough to be a 25+ ppg player and #1 option.

I'd go with Worthy on most teams - most teams fill scoring needs first, and then defensive needs later.

What are you talking about? Worthy never averaged more than 21 ppg. Sure he had a few playoffs where he went 24+ but he always had Magic and old KAJ to take away the pressure. He did squat once Magic retired.

Sure, in iso situations, Worthy was better but Pippen just impacted the game in so many more ways and his scoring abilities were close to Worthy. I would take Pip 100 out of 100 times. He was a level above Worthy in terms of impact.

[Uncle Drew]

Worthy was a 3rd option (behind Kareem or Magic).

Pippen was a 2nd option, right behind MJ.

However, Worthy was the FAR superior scorer - enough to be a 25+ ppg player and #1 option.

I'd go with Worthy on most teams - most teams fill scoring needs first, and then defensive needs later.
Surprise, surprise. :roll:

Hey, Pippen or Jeff Green?

[3ball]

Hey, Pippen or Jeff Green?


Pippen... Regarding Worthy vs. Pippen - I'll put it this way - I'd DRAFT Worthy all day over Pippen.

Pippen not a lock when he got drafted - he was a scrawny, undeveloped player that had potential bust written all over him... Whereas Worthy WAS a lock to be a great player.

If Pippen didn't get drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ, no one would ever talk about Pippen today.. The MOST likely scenario is he'd have zero rings, and would never get over the hump that he overcame in Game 7 of 1990 ECF...

He'd never get over that hump on another team, unless he was drafted by the Lakers, Celtics or Pistons - teams like the Bulls who ended up being champions... But on a non-champion, without a mentor like Magic, Bird, or MJ, Pippen's career ends up being like Sean Elliot, with worse offense but better defense... Do we ever talk about 3-time all-star Sean Elliot in these forums?... Nope
.

[kennethgriffin]

duh.. pippen .. hes top 25 all time


worthys more around top 45

[Lebron23]

Give me Pippen. He proved that he was capable of leading his team deeper into the playoffs without MJ.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Pippen... Regarding Worthy vs. Pippen - I'll put it this way - I'd DRAFT Worthy all day over Pippen.

Pippen not a lock when he got drafted - he was a scrawny, undeveloped player that had potential bust written all over him... Whereas Worthy WAS a lock to be a great player.

If Pippen didn't get drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ, no one would ever talk about Pippen today.. The MOST likely scenario is he'd have zero rings, and would never get over the hump that he overcame in Game 7 of 1990 ECF...

He'd never get over that hump on another team, unless he was drafted by the Lakers, Celtics or Pistons - teams like the Bulls who ended up being champions... But on a non-champion, without a mentor like Magic, Bird, or MJ, Pippen's career ends up being like Sean Elliot, with worse offense but better defense... Do we ever talk about Sean Elliot in these forums?... Nope
.

And yet neither would Jordan.

[97 bulls]

Pippen... Regarding Worthy vs. Pippen - I'll put it this way - I'd DRAFT Worthy all day over Pippen.

Pippen not a lock when he got drafted - he was a scrawny undeveloped player that had potential bust written all over him... Whereas Worthy WAS a lock to be a great player.

If Pippen didn't get drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ, no one would ever talk about Pippen today.. The MOST likely scenario is he'd have zero rings, and would never get over the hump he got over in Game 7 of 1990 ECF...

He'd never get over that hump on another team, unless he was drafted by the Lakers, Celtics or Pistons - teams like the Bulls who ended up being champions... But on a non-champion, without a mentor like Magic, Bird, or MJ, he's Sean Elliot, with worse offense but better defense... Do we ever talk about Sean Elliot in these forums?... Nope
Dude. He was drafted by a non championship team.

Why do you keep acting as if the Bulls were this juggernaut when Pippen and Grant joined?

[3ball]

Give me Pippen. He proved that he was capable of leading his team deeper into the playoffs without MJ.
Who would you DRAFT... It's easy to say you'd take Pippen after he has won 6 rings alongside MJ.

But coming out of college, Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was scrawny, weak, and undeveloped - he had bust written all over him.

If he didn't get drafted by a champion like Celtics, Pistons, Lakers or Bulls, then he doesn't have a Bird/Magic/MJ-level mentor that he needs to become the player he became (remember when he got over the hump in 1990 ECF game 7 - he doesn't do that on say, the Vancover Grizzlies)

[Asukal]

Big game James is a legend but I'd take Pippen. :bowdown:

[JellyBean]

Who would you rather have in your team?
During their peak, if they switch teams, would their teams be as successful?

Worthy. If they switched teams would their teams be as successful? Yes I do believe that if they switched teams, both teams would have been successful.

[97 bulls]

Who would you DRAFT... It's easy to say you'd take Pippen after he has won 6 rings alongside MJ.

But coming out of college, Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was scrawny, weak, and undeveloped - he had bust written all over him.

If he didn't get drafted by a champion like Celtics, Pistons, Lakers or Bulls, then he doesn't have a Bird/Magic/MJ-level mentor that he needs to become the player he became (remember when he got over the hump in 1990 ECF game 7 - he doesn't do that on say, the Vancover Grizzlies)
Worthy joined Magic and Kareem.

[oarabbus]

Worthy. If they switched teams would their teams be as successful? Yes I do believe that if they switched teams, both teams would have been successful.


lol @ Jordan winning 6 with Worthy as his sidekick. he'd win... nowhere near 6 though.

[ShawkFactory]

Who would you DRAFT... It's easy to say you'd take Pippen after he has won 6 rings alongside MJ.

But coming out of college, Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was scrawny, weak, and undeveloped - he had bust written all over him.

If he didn't get drafted by a champion like Celtics, Pistons, Lakers or Bulls, then he doesn't have a Bird/Magic/MJ-level mentor that he needs to become the player he became (remember when he got over the hump in 1990 ECF game 7 - he doesn't do that on say, the Vancover Grizzlies)
Who cares? This is about who the better player was.

But anything to degrade Pippen, am I right?!

[3ball]

Dude. He was drafted by a non championship team.

Why do you keep acting as if the Bulls were this juggernaut when Pippen and Grant joined?


Look, you didn't watch basketball back then - Grant is not worthy of mentioning like he was this massive asset or something.. At the time, NOBODY viewed Grant as a irreplaceable piece...

He was 11/8 player - not just for his career, but those were his numbers from 1988-1993 alongside MJ, and during the championship years of 1991-1993... He was replaceable by literally hundreds of guys in NBA history.

Horace says so himself:

"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. Not saying I wouldn't have had a decent career, but for a leader to lead you to 3 championships...."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


So stop talking about Horace like he is equivalent to the third options other guys had - i.e. Magic's HOF Worthy, Lebron's HOF and 10-time all-star Bosh, Bird's HOF Parish, or Duncan's HOF Ginobili.


The reality is that MJ only needed a 20 ppg running mate and a bunch of role players to win rings.. The Bulls were nothing in 1987, but MJ wasn't going to have zero help FOREVER - eventually, the Bulls would get him a 20 ppg running mate and he'd win rings.

So again, back to Pippen vs. Worthy - Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was a scrawny, weak player that needed a TON of development.. Specifically, for Pippen to be a championship-caliber player, he needed to go through a PLAYOFF experience where he "got over the hump" - he got this with MJ in the 1990 ECF... And he would get this same championship growth experience alongside Bird and Magic too - but if he gets drafted by the Bucks or some other garbage team with no ATG's that had no chance to grow into champions, we would never talk about Pippen, like ever.
.

[97 bulls]

Look, you didn't watch basketball back then - Grant is not worthy of mentioning like he was this massive asset or something.. At the time, NOBODY viewed Grant as a irreplaceable piece...

He was 11/8 player - not just for his career, but those were his numbers from 1988-1993 alongside MJ, and during the championship years of 1991-1993... He was replaceable by literally hundreds of guys in NBA history.

Horace says so himself:

"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. Not saying I wouldn't have had a decent career, but for a leader to lead you to 3 championships...."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


So stop talking about Horace like he is equivalent to the third options other guys had - i.e. Magic's HOF Worthy, Lebron's HOF and 10-time all-star Bosh, Bird's HOF Parish, or Duncan's HOF Ginobili.


The reality is that MJ only needed a 20 ppg running mate and a bunch of role players to win rings.. The Bulls were nothing in 1987, but MJ wasn't going to have zero help FOREVER - eventually, the Bulls would get him a 20 ppg running mate and he'd win rings.

So again, back to Pippen vs. Worthy - Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was a scrawny, weak player that needed a TON of development.. Specifically, for Pippen to be a championship-caliber player, he needed to go through a PLAYOFF experience where he "got over the hump" - he got this with MJ in the 1990 ECF... And he would get this same championship growth experience alongside Bird and Magic too - but if he gets drafted by the Bucks or some other garbage team with no ATG's that had no chance to grow into champions, we would never talk about Pippen, like ever.
.
Scottie Pippen was the number 5 pick in the draft bro. You're acting as if Bulls Management found him bagging groceries or something.

And the fact is none of us know what or how good a player might have been under a different scenario. Lets just judge them on what we saw.

And im not arguing your opinion. Im arguing your reasoning. Your dismissing Pip because he joined Jordan and a team that wouls evolve into a champion. Mind you due in part greatly to Pippens contributions. Fine thats the criteria you set great. Worthy actually Joined two great players in Magic and Jabaar. He joined a team that won a championship. Hell the year before He was drafted, the Lakers were actually in the Finals. The year before Pippen was drafted, the Bulls couldn't even get out of the first round.

You dont see the folly in your assesment?

[ShawkFactory]

Look, you didn't watch basketball back then - Grant is not worthy of mentioning like he was this massive asset or something.. At the time, NOBODY viewed Grant as a irreplaceable piece...

He was 11/8 player - not just for his career, but those were his numbers from 1988-1993 alongside MJ, and during the championship years of 1991-1993... He was replaceable by literally hundreds of guys in NBA history.

Horace says so himself:

"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. Not saying I wouldn't have had a decent career, but for a leader to lead you to 3 championships...."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


So stop talking about Horace like he is equivalent to the third options other guys had - i.e. Magic's HOF Worthy, Lebron's HOF and 10-time all-star Bosh, Bird's HOF Parish, or Duncan's HOF Ginobili.


The reality is that MJ only needed a 20 ppg running mate and a bunch of role players to win rings.. The Bulls were nothing in 1987, but MJ wasn't going to have zero help FOREVER - eventually, the Bulls would get him a 20 ppg running mate and he'd win rings.

So again, back to Pippen vs. Worthy - Worthy was a lock to be a great player, while Pippen was a scrawny, weak player that needed a TON of development.. Specifically, for Pippen to be a championship-caliber player, he needed to go through a PLAYOFF experience where he "got over the hump" - he got this with MJ in the 1990 ECF... And he would get this same championship growth experience alongside Bird and Magic too - but if he gets drafted by the Bucks or some other garbage team with no ATG's that had no chance to grow into champions, we would never talk about Pippen, like ever.
.
Pippen was a lot more than that you stupid asshole.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was a lot more than that you stupid asshole.
I find it funny that hes picking Worthy based on how they both were regarded comming into the league when LeBron James was a much higer regarded player comming into the NBA than Jordan. Yet he takes Jordan. Go figure

[Fire Colangelo]

I find it funny that hes picking Worthy based on how they both were regarded comming into the league when LeBron James was a much higer regarded player comming into the NBA than Jordan. Yet he takes Jordan. Go figure

Dude will take Rudy Gay over Scottie Pippen at this point.

[SouBeachTalents]

He was 11/8 player - not just for his career, but those were his numbers from 1988-1993 alongside MJ, and during the championship years of 1991-1993... He was replaceable by literally hundreds of guys in NBA history.

So stop talking about Horace like he is equivalent to the third options other guys had - i.e. Magic's HOF Worthy, Lebron's HOF and 10-time all-star Bosh, Bird's HOF Parish, or Duncan's HOF Ginobili.

The reality is that MJ only needed a 20 ppg running mate and a bunch of role players to win rings.. The Bulls were nothing in 1987, but MJ wasn't going to have zero help FOREVER - eventually, the Bulls would get him a 20 ppg running mate and he'd win rings.

In the playoffs

'12 Bosh: 14/8/1 49%
'91 Grant: 13/8/2 58%

'13 Bosh: 12/7/2 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 54%

[Kvnzhangyay]

In the playoffs

'12 Bosh: 14/8/1 49%
'91 Grant: 13/8/2 58%

'13 Bosh: 12/7/2 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 54%

10 time all star Chris Bosh doing worse than trash Grant :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

3ball got owned again. He's now the resident ISH punching bag.

[AintNoSunshine]

:oldlol: Basically everyone will pick Pippen(one of the greatest defensive player and offense orchestrator ever), except for 3ball

Oh, and Pippen did lead his team to the ECF after the GOAT left the team. Can you say that about any other 2nd option ever?

[Kobe_6/8]

Pippen. He was pretty successful during the 2 years MJ was out.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Summing it up...

Pippen was a better defensive player, a better passer (who could bring the ball up), even a better rebounder.

Worthy was a bit better scorer, and although Pip had more range on his shot, James was better from mid-range and at the FT line.
Big Game James also the better clutch performer.

Worthy never had the chance to show what he could do on "his own team" at his best though, like Scottie did in 1994... I think he could've handled it well, let's say; with numbers like 24/7/4 in the regular-season, ofc on worse efficiency with more TO's, and while more praised individually at the time, he wouldn't have won as much or even remotely close, making him more forgotten nowadays.

Anyways, there are some "situations" in which one should take Worthy here (most of them being with him as a #1 option probably) but, overall, Pippen was just a better, more impactful player.

I definitely got Scottie above in terms of peak and higher on my all-time list, even thinking that James gets underrated/overlooked plenty.

[ShawkFactory]

Summing it up...

Pippen was a better defensive player, a better passer (who could bring the ball up), even a better rebounder.

Worthy was a bit better scorer, and although Pip had more range on his shot, James was better from mid-range and at the FT line.
Big Game James also the better clutch performer.

Worthy never had the chance to show what he could do on "his own team" at his best though, like Scottie did in 1994... I think he could've handled it well, let's say; with numbers like 24/7/4 in the regular-season, ofc on worse efficiency with more TO's, and while more praised individually at the time, he wouldn't have won as much or even remotely close, making him more forgotten nowadays.

Anyways, there are some "situations" in which one should take Worthy here (most of them being with him as a #1 option probably) but, overall, Pippen was just a better, more impactful player.

I definitely got Scottie above in terms of peak and higher on my all-time list, even thinking that James gets underrated/overlooked plenty.

So if you're drafting a team and don't have Jordan or Magic/Kareem already there who you got?

[SHAQisGOAT]

So if you're drafting a team and don't have Jordan or Magic/Kareem already there who you got?

If I don't know anything about the players I'm "getting" for my team? Definitely Pippen... Like I've said, he was just a better, more impactful overall player; so you clearly gotta roll with that.

[Pushxx]

Gotta take Pippen whose versatility on both sides of the ball puts him a tick above Worthy.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Pippen no doubt about it. Peak wise I say Pippen too. Due to his all around game, Pippen's 18-21 points a night on the Lakers would have been more impactful than Worthy's 18-21 points a night. In both cases, each guy would be the third option.

If an SF like Bird, Nique, English, or King was on the Lakers, they very well would have been the FIRST SCORING OPTION for the Lakers once the mid 80's hit. Kareem was at his tailend prime. So Riley may have let a Bird, King, or Nique be the top scoring option to conserve Kareem's energy.

THE FACT he didn't do that with Worthy is a bit telling... Even at 38 years old, Kareem was the Lakers leading scorer. If Bird, Nique, or King was on the squad, that wouldn't have been the case AT ALL. Not a knock to Cap, but those guys were at their peak (Bird, King) or approaching it (Nique). It would have allowed Kareem to save even more energy for playoff time.

The only guys u can argue over Pippen peak or better player wise at the SF HAS TO BE A DOMINANT SCORER. It has to be guys like a Bird, Durant, Dr. J, Hondo, Bron, Baylor, Barry, Nique, etc. As great as Worthy was, he wasn't on that level of scorer. He was on that next tier of scoring SF's.

[And1AllDay]

I shouldn't have to write this up, but *sigh* I will

When MJ left the Bulls in 93' it was up to Pippen to carry the load as the #1 guy.

How did the team fare?

Bulls in 93' w/ MJ : 57 wins
Bulls in 94' w/o MJ: 55 wins

Just sayin...

[3ball]

Worthy was a bit better scorer


you guys don't know SHIT about the game

[Kvnzhangyay]

you guys don't know SHIT about the game

they know more than you though...

[3ball]

Bulls in 93' w/ MJ : 57 wins
Bulls in 94' w/o MJ: 55 wins


A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

I remember some clueless stat nerd tell me one time - "There is no such thing as a player or team getting "hot"... Momentum doesn't exist"... WTF?... Why the **** is it a word then?... Why are confidence, optimism, comfort and adrenaline (things that make up momentum) words that exist?... Don't we all do better WITH these things and don't these things all fluctuate?.. Like, this guy literally only understood things that you could quantify with stats - he thought this way of thinking was actually smart, when it couldn't be dumber, more pathetic, or lead to more incorrect conclusions.
.

[AirFederer]

Pippen.

[3ball]

Pippen.
It's hilarious - because you guys would all be wrong if we could put Worthy and Pippen on 100 different, randomly-selected teams.

First lets imagine what that would be like for Pippen - for about 10 of those teams, adding Pippen would result in a championship - the ones that have MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron - all the guys that have won in the last 25 years.

But on every other team, the team would be ordinary - most teams would be lottery with Pippen as the #1 option - you guys don't seem to understand that the 1994 Bulls had the very best supporting cast Pippen could ever have as a #1 option: a 3-peat caliber supporting cast - remember, MJ isn't supposed to be there - it's PIPPEN'S team now, and you can't do better than a 3-peat supporting cast... Keep in mind that Pippen's 3-peat supporting cast was unique in that ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

Statistically, Pippen would be a 20 ppg scorer (on mostly lottery teams).. And even alongside MJ, it took Pippen several years to become an All-NBA defender - without MJ, who can say he wouldn't be one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender?.. I promise you that MJ is a big reason (if not the primary reason) Pippen developed the way he did.

You guys are all biased looking back after the fact - it's amazing that you give props to a guy that rode coattails to win 6 rings - he was never mvp, fmvp or anywhere NEAR these things.

Now lets look at Worthy - a lot of his teams would be lottery too, but Worthy was a legit #1 option that could average 25+ ppg.. So he was capable of having a BETTER supporting cast built around him than the 2nd Round peak we saw out of Pippen.

Worthy was literally top 10 all-time when it came to his ability out of the triple-threat - it's hard for me to think of guys that were more deadly.. His 1-on-1 ability was top 25 all-time - he was one of those guys that was so good, he could chew up a defender in 1-2 seconds.. Only a few guys had that kind of ability.

CLIFFS: So yeah, if I was drafting a player to fit on 100 supporting casts, I go with Worthy, because he's a better #1 option, and therefore better supporting casts can be built around him.
.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen, no doubt. I think Pippen vs McHale is a better discussion.

Worthy was more reliable in the clutch, his performance in game 7 of the '88 Finals gets overlooked, he played his best game of his career in the biggest game possible, this guy always stepped it up in the clutch. With that being said Pippen was simply better because of his versatility, one of the greatest defenders ever, also a 20-22 ppg type of guy and he was also one of the best passing forwards in the game. Pippen was just flat out more versatile.

[1987_Lakers]

CLIFFS: So yeah, if I was drafting a player to fit on 100 supporting casts, I go with Worthy, because he's a better #1 option, and therefore better supporting casts can be built around him.
.

How can one be so bias?:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Pippen is a more complete player to me. Worthy is the better scorer but Pippen can run an offense and play GOAT-tier defense, whether on the perimeter or in the post.

[3ball]

How can one be so bias?:oldlol:
I'm biased?... :wtf:

You guys have NO IDEA whether the 7.9 ppg, scrawny, weak-minded rookie would develop into a great player if he wasn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

Whereas we know for a FACT that Worthy would be a boss no matter where he went... And without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm biased?... :wtf:

You guys have NO IDEA whether the 7.9 ppg, scrawny, weak-minded rookie would develop into a great player if he wasn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

Whereas we know for a FACT that Worthy would be a boss no matter where he went... And without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

I'm not sure Worthy would have averaged 25+ ppg as the #1 option. In '92 the year when Magic was retired his averages pretty much stayed the same. Actually by the '87 season Worthy was the Lakers #2 guy, Kareem wasn't not even cracking 20 ppg in his last 3 years and Worthy was still at the 20 ppg mark.

[bizil]

I'm not sure Worthy would have averaged 25+ ppg as the #1 option. In '92 the year when Magic was retired his averages pretty much stayed the same. Actually by the '87 season Worthy was the Lakers #2 guy, Kareem wasn't not even cracking 20 ppg in his last 3 years and Worthy was still at the 20 ppg mark.

Great points! Scoring wise, Worthy wasn't on the level of a Bird, Nique, King, or English in that era. Those guys were threats to lead the league in scoring. I think Worthy was more in that second tier. Even as the PG, Magic averaged more points than Worthy most seasons.

If Bird or Nique were in Worthy's place, that wouldn't have been the case. Magic would have NEVER averaged more points in a season than those two. Magic would have been happily dropping them dimes while they dominate scoring.

[Uncle Drew]

I'm biased?... :wtf:

Hahahaha.

[3ball]

I'm not sure Worthy would have averaged 25+ ppg as the #1 option. In '92 the year when Magic was retired his averages pretty much stayed the same. Actually by the '87 season Worthy was the Lakers #2 guy, Kareem wasn't not even cracking 20 ppg in his last 3 years and Worthy was still at the 20 ppg mark.
You guys are forgetting about Byron Scott - he was a 17-21 ppg scorer from his rookie in 1983, all the way to his 3rd last season in 1995.

So Worthy wasn't just competing for shots with the best center of all time and the best PG of all time - he was competing with another high scoring wing player in Byron Scott.

That's just how stacked the Lakers were.. Worthy was often a FOURTH option.. (btw, in 1992, Sam Perkins was 17 ppg scorer).

Again, put Worthy on a squad where he's the #1 option instead of #4 option, and he gets 25 ppg... But my initial assessment that he would do this was NOT based on stats - I just know his game.. I know how cold he was.

[Dragonyeuw]

When Kareem was nearing retirement, Worthy showed that he was capable of being a 25ppg first option by picking up his scoring significantly.....

No wait, thats not what happened. Magic was the one who picked up his scoring, as well as continue to run the offense. Why didn't Worthy, in his prime during the late 80s, not take on the first option role, instead of Magic? Why was Magic the one scoring 23.9 in 1987, and not Worthy?

[3ball]

Why didn't Worthy, in his prime during the late 80s, not take on the first option role, instead of Magic? Why was Magic the one scoring 23.9 in 1987, and not Worthy?


Worthy was a 20 ppg 4th option some years.

And Magic is a top 5 all-time player... I'm guessing that's why he averaged 24 ppg in 1987.

But Worthy led the Lakers in scoring in the 1991 RS and Finals..

The Lakers were so stacked over the years, that there was no real consensus on who would lead the team in scoring.. Magic, Kareem, and Worthy were all legit #1 options, so they took turns and had to share the scoring.

[Dragonyeuw]

Worthy was a 20 ppg 4th option some years.

And Magic is a top 5 all-time player... I'm guessing that's why he averaged 24 ppg in 1987.

But Worthy led the Lakers in scoring in the 1991 RS and Finals..

The Lakers were so stacked over the years, that there was no real consensus on who would lead the team in scoring.. Magic, Kareem, and Worthy were all legit #1 options, so they took turns and had to share the scoring.

Magic's top 5 status isn't based on his scoring prowess, though I'm sure he could and would have had more scoring seasons like the 87 one if it was needed.

But, the rest of your post still doesn't answer why Worthy wasn't given the role of being the #1 option after Kareem slowed down. Was the strategy to pass the scoring reigns to Magic in part because that was the best option for the Lakers? Because if Worthy scoring 25 per night was either within his capability or the Lakers best interests, one would think the strategy wouldn't have been to put the burden of being the primary scorer and passer on Magic, especially if there's someone else on the squad capable of scoring 25+ as you claim Worthy was capable of.

For that matter, Worthy in 91 had his highest scoring average at 21.4 on a then career high 38 mpg, ahead of Magic whose scoring had dipped from 22 to 19, Kareem was retired, and your next scorers were Scott and Perkins at 14 and 13 a game. Why didn't Worthy score more then?

[TheMan]

Big Game was a beast, especially in the low post. A better overall offensive scoring player than Pip but I'd take Pippen because of his defense.

[Dragonyeuw]

Pippen fills more roles, in addition to scoring 19-22 ppg which is pretty much Worthy's output despite being a 'better' scorer as argued throughout the thread. The gap between their defense is better than any offensive gap, playmaking goes to Pippen, shit everything pretty much goes to Pippen except scoring.

Worthy was definitely money in big games, hence the nickname, but come on. He's not better than Pippen, unless the objective here is to discredit to prop up MJ, not that anyone here would do anything like that. Right?

[aj1987]

Even alongside MJ, it took Pippen several years to become an All-NBA defender
It took MJ and Pip the same number of seasons to make the All-Def team.


Without MJ, who can say he wouldn't be one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender?..
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[bizil]

When Kareem was nearing retirement, Worthy showed that he was capable of being a 25ppg first option by picking up his scoring significantly.....

No wait, thats not what happened. Magic was the one who picked up his scoring, as well as continue to run the offense. Why didn't Worthy, in his prime during the late 80s, not take on the first option role, instead of Magic? Why was Magic the one scoring 23.9 in 1987, and not Worthy?

Well said! For those that say Worthy would have averaged 25 a night as the number one option, HE HAD HIS CHANCE once Kareem was past his prime. Magic was a pass first PG who would have been fine deferring to a dominant scorer. If it was Bird, King, Nique, English, or Dantley in Worthy's spot, NO QUESTION they would be the top scoring option. And EASILY put up at least 25 points a night. That right there SAYS everything we need to know.

Even underrated SG's, SF's, or combo forwards like Dale Ellis, Kiki, Mark Aguirre, and Chambers were more devastating scoring that Worthy. If u put ANY OF THEM with a genius like Magic, it would have enhanced them even more!

[Dragonyeuw]

Well said! For those that say Worthy would have averaged 25 a night as the number one option, HE HAD HIS CHANCE once Kareem was past his prime. Magic was a pass first PG who would have been fine deferring to a dominant scorer. If it was Bird, King, Nique, English, or Dantley in Worthy's spot, NO QUESTION they would be the top scoring option. And EASILY put up at least 25 points a night. That right there SAYS everything we need to know.

Even underrated SG's, SF's, or combo forwards like Dale Ellis, Kiki, Mark Aguirre, and Chambers were more devastating scoring that Worthy. If u put ANY OF THEM with a genius like Magic, it would have enhanced them even more!

Exactly. Magic's the kind of player who would have been just as happy scoring 5 points and dishing 20 assists. If Worthy's scoring prowess was anywhere near the players you mentioned, on a consistent year around basis, Magic would have happily deferred. It wasn't from lack of opportunity, because anytime from 87 to 92 he could have put up bigger numbers. His highest scoring outputs ever were 25 and 24 ppg in 89 and 90, during the playoffs, but those are sample sizes nowhere near large to conclude he could have consistently been a 25 ppg scorer, unless perhaps you threw him on some hapless 20-30 win team. He had a good midrange shot, very good in the post, and obviously a great fastbreak finisher, but IMO he didn't have the kind of ISO game needed to be a tier 1 scoring forward, reserved for some of the aforementioned guys in your post.

[97 bulls]

A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

I remember some clueless stat nerd tell me one time - "There is no such thing as a player or team getting "hot"... Momentum doesn't exist"... WTF?... Why the **** is it a word then?... Why are confidence, optimism, comfort and adrenaline (things that make up momentum) words that exist?... Don't we all do better WITH these things and don't these things all fluctuate?.. Like, this guy literally only understood things that you could quantify with stats - he thought this way of thinking was actually smart, when it couldn't be dumber, more pathetic, or lead to more incorrect conclusions.
.
You can't possibly be this dumb. Pippen wasnt added to a threepeat champion. Jordan was taken away. And even if you feel that the Bulls should've won in 94, then that would mean you don't feel the Bulls needed Jordan to win championships.

[3ball]

You can't possibly be this dumb. Pippen wasnt added to a threepeat champion. Jordan was taken away. And even if you feel that the Bulls should've won in 94, then that would mean you don't feel the Bulls needed Jordan to win championships.
you didn't read my post - i never said the bulls should've won in 1994...

A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

[ShawkFactory]

you didn't read my post - i never said the bulls should've won in 1994...

A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.
Ordinary? They took the Knicks to 7 games (same team that took the MJ-led Bulls to 7 the year before) and were a couple plays away from winning that series. Stupid asshole.

[3ball]

Nobody is looking at this objectively..
.

[LAZERUSS]

Ordinary? They took the Knicks to 7 games (same team that took the MJ-led Bulls to 7 the year before) and were a couple plays away from winning that series. Stupid asshole.

Not only that, but a fully healthy and refreshed MJ came back to that EXACT SAME roster the very next season, and with the addition of 20 ppg scorer Harper...with MJ basically replacing GRANT...

and they were wiped out in the second round by a team that would get swept in the Finals by the 47-35 Rockets. Oh, and it was GRANT's 18-11 .647 series that killed MJ's Bulls in that series.

So, Phil Jackson took one look at that roster (now with MJ), and decided...hey, we don't have a chance at a ring with this cast. Let's go out and add another ELITE PF in HOFer Dennis Rodman. And the rest was history.

So, basically, MJ, Harper, and Rodman replaced Grant on a 55 win team...and the REALITY...Jordan was playing with, BY FAR, the greatest supporting casts of the 90's.

[3ball]

Ordinary? They took the Knicks to 7 games and were a couple plays away from winning that series.

Stupid asshole


They were a Kukoc buzzer-beater game winner away from going down 3-0 and probably being swept.. So forget about the could-woulda-shoulda in that series - NOTHING is more coulda-woulda-shoulda than that... Kukoc saved Pippen's ASS and the Bulls from being thoroughly embarrassed in that series.

Again, you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - You think Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the stark reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.

You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

[kshutts1]

They were a Kukoc game-winner away from going down 3-0 and probably being swept.. So forget about the could-woulda-shoulda in that series - NOTHING is more coulda-woulda-shoulda than that... Kukoc saved Pippen's ASS and the series by making that shot.

Again, you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - You think Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the stark reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.

You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Paxson once hit a game winner for Jordan's team? Kerr as well?

Are we going to hold great games/shots by Pippen's teammates against him, yet when it happens with Jordan we will claim that Jordan created that player, so it's still because of him?

[3ball]

Nobody is looking at this objectively.. Everyone is assuming Pippen develops the exact same way if he was drafted to another team... This is not realistic - it's a FACT that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.

If Pippen was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. He would've been one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender.. And we know his offense was much better by watching and playing with MJ every day.

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I KNOW that the weak-minded, scrawny, rookie Pippen and his 7.9 ppg needed a super-ton of development - he doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.
..

[LAZERUSS]

Nobody is looking at this objectively.. Everyone is assuming Pippen develops the exact same way if he was drafted to another team... This is not realistic - it's a FACT that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.

If he was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. And one can only imagine how much better his offense was by watching and playing with MJ every day.

On defense, it took Pippen several years to become an All-NBA defender.. Without MJ, who can say he wouldn't be one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender?

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I KNOW the 7.9 ppg, weak, rookie Pippen doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option

Just the complete OPPOSITE, my friend.

Jordan was a shot-jacking loser until Pippen and Grant arrived. Those two guys showed JORDAN how to play with teammates and WIN.

They were so good at winning, that they went 55-27 without him, and both had winning careers AFTER MJ, as well. Hell, Grant won yet another ring later in his career.

Jordan without Pippen... a career loser with a 1-9 playoff record.

[3ball]

They were so good at winning, that they went 55-27 without him, and both had winning careers AFTER MJ, as well.


A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - You think Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the stark reality is that the Bulls acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

I think you were the stat nerd that said to me once: "There is no such thing as a player or team getting "hot"... Momentum doesn't exist"... WTF?... Why the **** is it a word then?... Why are confidence, optimism, comfort and adrenaline (things that make up momentum) words that exist?... We all do better WITH these things and these things all fluctuate.. But you only understood things that you can quantify with stats - and you think this way of thinking is actually smart, when it couldn't be dumber, more pathetic, or lead to more incorrect conclusions.

[SugarHill]

Just the complete OPPOSITE, my friend.

Jordan was a shot-jacking loser until Pippen and Grant arrived. Those two guys showed JORDAN how to play with teammates and WIN.

They were so good at winning, that they went 55-27 without him, and both had winning careers AFTER MJ, as well. Hell, Grant won yet another ring later in his career.

Jordan without Pippen... a career loser with a 1-9 playoff record.
Nah, Jordan actually created Pippen...literally. Built him in a lab.

[3ball]

Nah, Jordan actually created Pippen.


Exactly - it's a FACT that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.

If Pippen was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. He would've been one of MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender.. And we know his offense was much better by watching and playing with MJ every day.

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I KNOW that rookie Pippen was weak-minded, scrawny, and needed a super-ton of development - he doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic, Kareem, or 20 ppg Byron Scott, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

[SugarHill]

Exactly - it's a FACT that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.

If Pippen was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. He would've been one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender.. And we know his offense was much better by watching and playing with MJ every day.

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I KNOW that the weak-minded, scrawny, rookie Pippen and his 7.9 ppg needed a super-ton of development - he doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

This is based on nothing aside from your delusional bias which stems purely from an instinctual need to prop up a bald headed Dominique

[3ball]

This is based on nothing aside from your delusional bias which stems purely from an instinctual need to prop up a bald headed Dominique
you responded faster than you had a chance to read the post.

don't quote posts you don't read... now stfu and go troll someone else whose posts you don't read and disregard

[SugarHill]

you responded faster than you had a chance to read the post.

don't quote posts you don't read... now stfu and go troll someone else whose posts you don't read and disregard

hurrdurr pippen cannot become his own player, needed and created by jordan

worthy will always be good because nothing

you're a fvcking spastic

[3ball]

pippen cannot become his own player, needed and created by jordan

worthy will always be good because nothing


your post is 100% accurate and fact.

you simply don't give credit to reality because you want to believe Pippen would've developed the work ethic and offensive ability if he was playing alongside Derrick Coleman instead of MJ.

that's dumb, so you're the dumb one ignoring the sky being blue, not me

[Fire Colangelo]

hurrdurr pippen cannot become his own player, needed and created by jordan

worthy will always be good because nothing

you're a fvcking spastic

:roll:

That's actually exactly what I got from his long ass post which he copy&paste spammed.

[3ball]

:roll:

That's actually exactly what I got from his long ass post which he copy&paste spammed.
Virtually every single thing you and I have argued about, you've been proven obstensibly wrong.

you're the dumbass that actually thought usage meant ball-domination.

you can't GET dumber than that... now get back in your hole

[GimmeThat]

Pete Myers might be one of the few players who plays the triangle offense without having his statistics taking a dip.

Is/Was Andrew Bynum becoming one of the best center in the league prior to Pau Gasol's arrival a fact?

Don't let a stat guy prove my notion right

[Fire Colangelo]

Virtually every single thing you and I have argued about, you've been proven obstensibly wrong.

you're the dumbass that actually thought usage meant ball-domination.

you can't GET dumber than that... now get back in your hole

Lol, I used a wrong word which you nitpicked on (which really had nothing to do with what I as trying to say) instead of my actual argument.

Literally nobody thinks Worthy is better than Pippen yet here you are proven wrong by pretty much everybody.

But but everyone else here is the problem! Everyone else is proven wrong!

The fact that you're using personal insults shows you've lost an argument and you're just being really defensive/insecure.

But hey, continue lol it's entertaining I'll give you that

[3ball]

Literally nobody thinks Worthy is better than Pippen


You guys are results-oriented.. Everyone is making a ridiculous assumption that Pippen develops the exact same way if he was drafted to another team... This is not realistic - it's a fact that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.. To deny this is sheer bias and ignoring WHAT HAPPENED.

If Pippen was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. He would've been one of the many great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender.. And we know his offense was much better by watching and playing with MJ every day.. Without MJ, Pippen's offense and defense would be FAR worse.

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I know that the weak-minded, scrawny, rookie Pippen and his 7.9 ppg needed a super-ton of development - and he simply doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

[JohnnySic]

Pippen pretty easily.

Pippen is top 30-40.

Worthy does not belong in the top 50. Even top 60 is a reach.

[And1AllDay]

If it's common knowledge that 3-ball is a troll then why do we keep feeding him?

[3ball]

If it's common knowledge that 3-ball is a troll then why do we keep feeding him?
It's not trolling to say that when MJ won DPOY in Pippen's rookie season, this influenced Pippen a great deal, as it would for any undeveloped rookie playing alongside MJ.

Compare that to Pippen's outlook if he's drafted to Barkley's Sixers instead.

It's also not trolling to say that the greatest offensive player of all time influenced Pippen's offense a great deal, and helped turn him from an undeveloped 7.9 ppg rookie, to a 18 ppg scorer.

But again, you guys are being results-oriented, which is always dumb - Worthy didn't need MJ to be good - he would've been a boss regardless of where he went

[RRR3]

Virtually every single thing you and I have argued about, you've been proven obstensibly wrong.

you're the dumbass that actually thought usage meant ball-domination.

you can't GET dumber than that... now get back in your hole
Not only do you clearly not know what "ostensibly" means, you can't even spell it right to boot.

[And1AllDay]

It's not trolling to say that when MJ won DPOY in Pippen's rookie season, this influenced Pippen a great deal, as it would for any undeveloped rookie playing alongside MJ.

Compare that to Pippen's outlook if he's drafted to Barkley's Sixers instead.

It's also not trolling to say that the greatest offensive player of all time influenced Pippen's offense a great deal, and helped turn him from an undeveloped 7.9 ppg rookie, to a 18 ppg scorer.

But again, you guys are being results-oriented, which is always dumb - Worthy didn't need MJ to be good - he would've been a boss regardless of where he went

Of course it's very, very possible that Jordan elevated Pippen to become the player he was (but it could be argued that he held Pippen back to some degree).

Let's see what Pippen did when MJ left:

22/9/6 on 49% (So off the bat you can change the 18 ppg bull shit and at the least put 22 if you're not a troll)

What about during the playoffs?

23/8/5

[Dragonyeuw]

You guys are results-oriented.. Everyone is making a ridiculous assumption that Pippen develops the exact same way if he was drafted to another team... This is not realistic - it's a fact that MJ was instrumental in Pippen's work ethic and development on both sides of the ball.. To deny this is sheer bias and ignoring WHAT HAPPENED.

If Pippen was being mentored by Barkley or Derrick Coleman, he would NEVER have developed the work ethic.. He would've been one of the many great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender.. And we know his offense was much better by watching and playing with MJ every day.. Without MJ, Pippen's offense and defense would be FAR worse.

Otoh, Worthy is a guaranteed boss no matter where he goes - that's why I take him over Pippen - I know that the weak-minded, scrawny, rookie Pippen and his 7.9 ppg needed a super-ton of development - and he simply doesn't develop the same way he isn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

For Worthy - without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.



1. What difference does it make how Pippen developed? I'm the biggest MJ fan around but seriously, stop sucking off the guy. Was MJ a component to some degree in Pippen's maturation? Sure, but you have to have the talent and natural ability first and foremost. If you don't have the gifts or aptitude that Pippen had to be great, then he'd have been just like every other fcuking role player that played alongside MJ. You didn't turn to gold just by being around the guy. And frankly, once Pippen developed as a defensive talent, you don't think MJ in any way benefited from playing opposite him in practice? This is not to take anything from MJ, but the guy best qualified to defend him played on his side, and that was Pippen. No other perimeter player in MJ's prime had Pip's combo of defensive ability and athleticism asides from Jordan himself. So while Jordan was the dominant partner in that duo and the most important part of the Bulls dynasty, each came to a point of benefiting from the other's presence.

2. I'm still waiting for a reply as to why Worthy is a guaranteed 25ppg scorer in the right situation? Why didn't he score 25 when Kareem took a reduced role starting around 87? Why didn't he take over as lead scorer in 89 when Kareem retired? Why didn't he ever score more than 21ppg between 87 and 92? Dominique Wilkins can come off a career-threatening achilles injury at 32/33 years old and average 30 points a game in 1993. Larry Bird limped his way to a half season of 20/10/7 on 46/40/92 averages at 35 years old, in the same year a 31 year old Worthy averaged 19.9 with the next scorer on the team being Sedale Threatt at 15ppg. What was stopping him at that point with both Magic and Kareem off the team? If he was a capable 25ppg scorer he had plenty of opportunity when Kareem got old then left, then when Magic retired, to show this. He didn't, so you have literally zero evidence to support your conclusion.

[Dragonyeuw]

1) It's not trolling to say that when MJ won DPOY in Pippen's rookie season, this influenced Pippen a great deal, as it would for any undeveloped rookie playing alongside MJ.

2)Worthy didn't need MJ to be good - he would've been a boss regardless of where he went

1). No, it's not trolling. But neither is it rooted in anything but your own biased conjecture.

2) You say this as if Worthy didn't join a team featuring Kareem and Magic, and had already won 2 NBA titles before he even joined the fcuking team. What pressure did he have to perform? What would have been the consequences of him not panning out? Who's to say his own greatness wasn't enhanced by playing with Magic Johnson, who can make the most talentless scrub contribute something of importance? What evidence do you have to support that he would have been a boss without joining two of the greatest players to ever play? He didn't do anything once either left, then retired in 1994 at 33. Nothing happened in reality to support what is nothing but elementary-school speculative arguments on your end.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Not only do you clearly not know what "ostensibly" means, you can't even spell it right to boot.

Nor has he use proven correctly, for that matter :lol

[Round Mound]

Pippen! Better All Around Player and Can Do More Things With and Without The Ball.

[LAZERUSS]

Pete Myers carrying the '94 Bulls to a 55-27 record.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[And1AllDay]

Pete Myers carrying the '94 Bulls to a 55-27 record.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Myers made Pippen the player he is :bowdown:

MJ had no help with the Bulls! As we can see by an astounding 2-win drop off.

Seriously, has there ever been a more stacked team? Could we take off the #1 guy from any team and see them only win 2 less games the next season (without adding anyone else except for Pete GOAT Myers)?

We saw what happened to the Heat when Bron left last year, and that was with them acquiring Luol Deng, and (Dragic later) and an emerging Whiteside (although Bosh was injured).

We saw what the Cavs did when LBJ left.

I'm curious, if we took Curry off the Warriors (who are an INSANELY stacked team) I bet their win total doesn't drop to only 65 games. I bet they drop to below 60 games, probably 57 sounds right, maybe less.

Hell, I bet they win less than 65 games by only losing David Lee lol

Crazy.

[ClipperRevival]

1. What difference does it make how Pippen developed? I'm the biggest MJ fan around but seriously, stop sucking off the guy. Was MJ a component to some degree in Pippen's maturation? Sure, but you have to have the talent and natural ability first and foremost. If you don't have the gifts or aptitude that Pippen had to be great, then he'd have been just like every other fcuking role player that played alongside MJ. You didn't turn to gold just by being around the guy. And frankly, once Pippen developed as a defensive talent, you don't think MJ in any way benefited from playing opposite him in practice? This is not to take anything from MJ, but the guy best qualified to defend him played on his side, and that was Pippen. No other perimeter player in MJ's prime had Pip's combo of defensive ability and athleticism asides from Jordan himself. So while Jordan was the dominant partner in that duo and the most important part of the Bulls dynasty, each came to a point of benefiting from the other's presence.

2. I'm still waiting for a reply as to why Worthy is a guaranteed 25ppg scorer in the right situation? Why didn't he score 25 when Kareem took a reduced role starting around 87? Why didn't he take over as lead scorer in 89 when Kareem retired? Why didn't he ever score more than 21ppg between 87 and 92? Dominique Wilkins can come off a career-threatening achilles injury at 32/33 years old and average 30 points a game in 1993. Larry Bird limped his way to a half season of 20/10/7 on 46/40/92 averages at 35 years old, in the same year a 31 year old Worthy averaged 19.9 with the next scorer on the team being Sedale Threatt at 15ppg. What was stopping him at that point with both Magic and Kareem off the team? If he was a capable 25ppg scorer he had plenty of opportunity when Kareem got old then left, then when Magic retired, to show this. He didn't, so you have literally zero evidence to support your conclusion.

:applause:

Regarding #2, it's just that simple. If you warrant a larger role on your team, you will get it. Worthy had every chance in the world to put up crazy scoring numbers but his talents weren't that of a guy who can carry an offense on his own. It is what it is.

[aj1987]

Pippen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worthy.

MJ needer the GOAT perimeter defender and a top 20 player for his first 3peat, along with the GOAT coach. Not to mention another GOAT defender/rebounder, 6th MOY, Pip, Kerr, GOAT coach for the 2nd 3peat.

MJ had stacked AF teams whenever he won.

[GrapeApe]

Pippen and it's not particularly close. He was the second best perimeter player in the 90's and arguably the best perimeter defender in history. He essentially redifined the small forward position. Worthy was a better scorer but Pippen wasn't exactly a bum offensively, especially when you factor in his court vision and passing ability. At his best, Pippen was an MVP and DPOY candidate. Worthy was simply not that caliber of player.

[oarabbus]

Not only do you clearly not know what "ostensibly" means, you can't even spell it right to boot.

:roll:

He is that guy who uses big words that he doesn't understand to try and sound smarter, with occasional backfiring

[jayfan]

Worthy






.

[3ball]

:applause:

Regarding #2, it's just that simple. If you warrant a larger role on your team, you will get it. Worthy had every chance in the world to put up crazy scoring numbers but his talents weren't that of a guy who can carry an offense on his own. It is what it is.


Ridiculous.. Even when Kareem retired, Worthy had to compete for shots with Magic and 20 ppg Byron Scott.. Yet he still averaged 21 ppg several seasons and won FMVP in 1988 with 22 ppg when Kareem was still there and Magic, Byron Scott were competing for shots too.

Otoh, Pippen didn't have to compete for shots with anyone on those 1994 Bulls - but he simply didn't have the offensive moves or scoring ability to average more than 22.1 ppg, which is the same as the 21.6 he got in 1992 alongside MJ.

Also, if you watch Worthy's game and know basketball, you'd know he was a far better scorer than Pippen.. Heck, the very fact that everyone itt concedes that Worthy is the better scorer, shows how big that gap must be that such a biased forum isn't able to deny that.

[ShawkFactory]

Ridiculous.. Even when Kareem retired, Worthy had to compete for shots with Magic and 20 ppg Byron Scott.. Yet he still averaged 21 ppg several seasons and won FMVP in 1988 with 22 ppg when Kareem was still there and Magic, Byron Scott were competing for shots too.

Otoh, Pippen didn't have to compete for shots with anyone on those 1994 Bulls - but he simply didn't have the offensive moves or scoring ability to average more than 22.1 ppg, which is the same as the 21.6 he got in 1992 alongside MJ.

Also, if you watch Worthy's game and know basketball, you'd know he was a far better scorer than Pippen.. Heck, the very fact that everyone itt concedes that Worthy is the better scorer, shows how big that gap must be that such a biased forum isn't able to deny that.
:roll:

You contribute HEAVILY to the bias in this forum

[1987_Lakers]

Ridiculous.. Even when Kareem retired, Worthy had to compete for shots with Magic and 20 ppg Byron Scott..

Look at the 1990 Lakers, by this time Kareem had retired...

Magic: 22 PPG
Worthy: 21 PPG
Scott : 15.5 PPG

Here we have the Lakers WITHOUT Kareem, Scott only averaging just over 15 ppg and Worthy who was right at his peak managed to average 21 ppg.

Again, your argument fails.

[3ball]

Look at the 1990 Lakers, by this time Kareem had retired...

Magic: 22 PPG
Worthy: 21 PPG
Scott : 15.5 PPG

Here we have the Lakers WITHOUT Kareem, Scott only averaging just over 15 ppg and Worthy who was right at his peak managed to average 21 ppg.

Again, your argument fails.
in 1994 when Pippen averaged 22.1 ppg, he didn't have another 22 ppg scorer OR a 16 ppg scorer to compete with for shots like Worthy did with Magic/Scott above.. They had 6 guys in double-figures that year.

I'm not sure why you could post that Worthy had to compete with a 22 ppg scorer and a 16 ppg scorer, and Pippen DIDN'T in 1994.

You make my argument for me.
.

[3ball]

:roll:

You contribute HEAVILY to the bias in this forum


You guys are the ones being results-oriented with Pippen.

This guy was a literally the towel boy at rinky dink Central Arkansas - literally... No scholarship and the ACTUAL towel boy.

Things had to go RIGHT for this guy to make it.

And it did - Pippen said himself the only thing he could think about when he got drafted was MJ.

Meanwhile, Worthy was the #1 option over MJ at North Carolina.. Worthy was a boss the entire time - All-America.. a stud.. #1 overall pick... A virtual lock.. NO WAY i would take Pippen, a massive longshot his entire career, over Worthy.

[97 bulls]

And let's not forget that Worthy played in an up tempo style offense with a great PG. Magic probably got him 3-4 easy baskets a night.

If Pippen played in the 80s, he would've avg 23-24 ppg easily. And thats with Jordan.

[97 bulls]

You guys are the ones being results-oriented with Pippen.

This guy was a literally the towel boy at rinky dink Central Arkansas - literally... No scholarship and the ACTUAL towel boy.

Things had to go RIGHT for this guy to make it.

And it did - Pippen said himself the only thing he could think about when he got drafted was MJ.

Meanwhile, Worthy was the #1 option over MJ at North Carolina.. Worthy was a boss the entire time - All-America.. a stud.. #1 overall pick... A virtual lock.. NO WAY i would take Pippen, a massive longshot his entire career, over Worthy.
If we're talking about both of them comming out if college, then I agree. But this is based on hiw their careers played out.

And like I stated earlier, if this is the reason as to why you think Worthy is better, then surely you must feel James is better than Jordan because he was a much more highly regarded prospect and the first pick in the draft.

[GrapeApe]

Ridiculous.. Even when Kareem retired, Worthy had to compete for shots with Magic and 20 ppg Byron Scott.. Yet he still averaged 21 ppg several seasons and won FMVP in 1988 with 22 ppg when Kareem was still there and Magic, Byron Scott were competing for shots too.

Otoh, Pippen didn't have to compete for shots with anyone on those 1994 Bulls - but he simply didn't have the offensive moves or scoring ability to average more than 22.1 ppg, which is the same as the 21.6 he got in 1992 alongside MJ.

Also, if you watch Worthy's game and know basketball, you'd know he was a far better scorer than Pippen.. Heck, the very fact that everyone itt concedes that Worthy is the better scorer, shows how big that gap must be that such a biased forum isn't able to deny that.

Pippen averaged 22.1 ppg while also being his team's best playmaker and defender. Worthy may have been a better pure scorer, but Pippen's court vision and passing ability made him arguably a better overall offensive player. There's more to offense than scoring and Pippen basically gave rise to the term "point forward". Like I said earlier, peak Pippen was an MVP and DPOY candidate. Worthy was simply not that level of player.

[1987_Lakers]

in 1994 when Pippen averaged 22.1 ppg, he didn't have another 22 ppg scorer OR a 16 ppg scorer to compete with for shots like Worthy did with Magic/Scott above.. They had 6 guys in double-figures that year.

I'm not sure why you could post that Worthy had to compete with a 22 ppg scorer and a 16 ppg scorer, and Pippen DIDN'T in 1994.

You make my argument for me.
.

And Pippen managed to average 21 ppg with Jordan on the same team averaging 30+ ppg. :confusedshrug:

Even if you think Worthy is a better scorer, which he might be, the gap is not big enough to overcome Pippen's advantages in defense, passing, rebounding, ball handling, etc. Pippen was simply a more complete player.

[kshutts1]

Since it is "fact" that Jordan created Pippen, please present your evidence.

I don't want conjecture. I don't want theories. I don't want hypotheses. I want facts. I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan; that Pippen would have been out of the league in a couple of years, or a bench-warmer, without Jordan.

[HighFlyer23]

Worthy

[LAZERUSS]

You guys are the ones being results-oriented with Pippen.

This guy was a literally the towel boy at rinky dink Central Arkansas - literally... No scholarship and the ACTUAL towel boy.

Things had to go RIGHT for this guy to make it.

And it did - Pippen said himself the only thing he could think about when he got drafted was MJ.

Meanwhile, Worthy was the #1 option over MJ at North Carolina.. Worthy was a boss the entire time - All-America.. a stud.. #1 overall pick... A virtual lock.. NO WAY i would take Pippen, a massive longshot his entire career, over Worthy.

Yep...Worthy was, by far, the best player on his North Carolina team. BY FAR. The tournament MVP. And after he left, North Carolina, with Jordan, Sam Perkins, Kenny Smith, and Brad Daugherty, couldn't win a NC.

[3ball]

If we're talking about both of them comming out if college, then I agree. But this is based on hiw their careers played out.

And like I stated earlier, if this is the reason as to why you think Worthy is better, then surely you must feel James is better than Jordan because he was a much more highly regarded prospect and the first pick in the draft.
You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

[DonDadda59]

lol @ Jordan winning 6 with Worthy as his sidekick. he'd win... nowhere near 6 though.

Why not 6? :confusedshrug:

Jordan won an NCAA championship with Worthy and MJ wasn't even the best player on that team. You can't say that for any ring he won with Scottie.

And before you go on about 'oh it was only College...', back then winning the NCAA tournament was a huge deal. Players stayed in school 3 or 4 years and the same players that were leading teams to the final four/championship game were later competing for championships in the NBA.

IE, Jordan/Worthy beat Ewing for a ring, Ewing and Olajuwon (back when he was Akeem :lol ) duked it out for the NCAA championship and would later repeat that in the pros.

Big Game James was more than capable of being a championship caliber 2nd option. That's not even a hypothetical, it's a proven fact. He was the first or 2nd option on 3 several of the Lakers finals runs. He even has a finals MVP, something Pip can't claim on his resume.

[DonDadda59]

And let's not forget that Worthy played in an up tempo style offense with a great PG. Magic probably got him 3-4 easy baskets a night.

If Pippen played in the 80s, he would've avg 23-24 ppg easily. And thats with Jordan.

:wtf:

[3ball]

I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan


You want proof Pippen would fail without MJ?.. That's very easy... Because it actually HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m30s

It's should be no surprise he'd have the goat meltdown, considering he was used to relying ON the goat.





I want facts


I doubt you were able to process the qualitative facts I presented in the response above.. You guys don't understand qualitative aspects of the game and think players are all numbers-producing robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 2nd Round in ANY season, not just 1994, right????

It means nothing to you that the Bulls acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork.. But I would start give credit to these qualitative factors if I were you, or you'll never understand the game and always be surprised at unfolding events in basketball.

The ridiculous thing that you don't realize, is that I'm TELLING you what happened - this isn't my opinion.. You weren't there, and I was, so I'm just relaying to you what happened: MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.
.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen. Easily, thanks to elite all-time great caliber defense and versatility. Offensively as well. He could play Point Forward. Worthy was however the better big game, crunch time player though. That isn't even arguable as well.

[3ball]

Pippen. Easily, thanks to elite all-time great caliber defense and versatility. Offensively as well. He could play Point Forward. Worthy was however the better big game, crunch time player though. That isn't even arguable as well.
^^^^ The results-oriented opinion.

That's fine - good thing you guys never have to coach or GM against me.

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that iteration over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.
.

[kshutts1]

You want proof Pippen would fail without MJ?.. That's very easy... Because it actually HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m30s

It's should be no surprise he'd have the goat meltdown, considering he was used to relying ON the goat.



I doubt you were able to process the qualitative facts I presented in the response above.. You guys don't understand qualitative aspects of the game and think players are all numbers-producing robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994, right????

It means nothing to you that the Bulls acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork.. But I would start give credit to these qualitative factors if I were you, or you'll never understand the game and always be surprised at unfolding events in basketball.

The ridiculous thing that you don't realize, is that I'm TELLING you what happened - this isn't my opinion.. You weren't there, and I was, so I'm just relaying to you what happened: MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.
You, literally, didn't put a single fact in your response :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

^^^^ The results-oriented opinion.

That's fine - good thing you guys never have to coach or GM against me.

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.
Well MJ definitely molded Pippen to his image.

If we're taking players out the gates from college ... Worthy was better. Absolutely. I don't get why you're being so defensive however.

I thought we were talking about their careers, and the players they actually became.

[3ball]

You, literally, didn't put a single fact in your response :facepalm
:kobe:

You asked for "evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I proceed to show you probably the biggest meltdown in the history of the game executed by Pippen, sans MJ, and you're claiming I didn't give you EXACTLY what you asked for.

And he melted down and failed despite MJ putting him in THE best situation possible - virtually the only 3-peat caliber supporting cast where Pippen can be the best player - like, he had the best of everything.

[kshutts1]

Since it is "fact" that Jordan created Pippen, please present your evidence.

I don't want conjecture. I don't want theories. I don't want hypotheses. I want facts. I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan; that Pippen would have been out of the league in a couple of years, or a bench-warmer, without Jordan.
You provided "evidence". You did not provide facts. Please try again.

[3ball]

You provided "evidence". You did not provide facts. Please try again.
:kobe:

You asked for "evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided factual events that happened - facts that Pippen had one of the biggest meltdowns ever without MJ there - and you're claiming I didn't give you EXACTLY what you asked for.

And he melted down and failed despite MJ putting him in THE best situation possible - virtually the only 3-peat caliber supporting cast where Pippen can be the best player - like, he had the best of everything.
.

[kshutts1]

Your reluctance to answer the question, within the guidelines I created, is answer enough. Thank you for admitting that there is no factual evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan ever being on his team.

Similarly, there is no factual evidence that Pippen would have succeeded (won a title) without Jordan on his team. It was an exercise without an obvious answer. One in which you failed.

Just... get help. I honestly worry about you.

[Kvnzhangyay]

You changed the goalposts, because I provided exactly what you asked for - initially, you said:


"I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided facts showing Pippen did EXACTLY THAT... and so you changed it to "without Jordan ever having being on his team".. I gave you what you asked for, then you changed it.

It's not about him "failing"... It's about him not being a 6-time champion or anyone we'd ever be talking about if he didn't get to play with MJ.

He was a towel-boy at Central Arkansas - he needed everything to go right - what happened to Pippen could be in a movie it was so unlikely..

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

Btw, if you think it didn't influence the very impressionable, rookie Pippen when MJ won DPOY in 1988, then your deluding yourself.

How can you say that when you weren't old enough to watch Pippen develop?

[3ball]

Your reluctance to answer the question, within the guidelines I created, is answer enough. Thank you for admitting that there is no factual evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan ever being on his team.



You changed the goalposts, because I provided exactly what you asked for - initially, you said:


"I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided facts showing Pippen did EXACTLY THAT... and so you changed it to "without Jordan ever having being on his team".. I gave you what you asked for, then you changed it.




no factual evidence that Pippen would fail without MJ


Only someone that has a very shallow understanding of the game would think evidence was needed to show that Pippen would fail without MJ - he failed in Houston alongside Hakeem.. He failed in Portland on an utterly stacked team.. He failed in 1994 with an epic choke.

But it's not about him "failing"... It's about him not being a 6-time champion or anyone we'd ever talk about if he didn't get to play with MJ.

He was a towel-boy at Central Arkansas - he needed everything to go right - what happened to Pippen could be in a movie it was so unlikely..

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

Btw, if you think it didn't influence the very impressionable, rookie Pippen when MJ won DPOY in 1988, then your deluding yourself.

[ShawkFactory]

You changed the goalposts, because I provided exactly what you asked for - initially, you said:


"I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided facts showing Pippen did EXACTLY THAT... and so you changed it to "without Jordan ever having being on his team".. I gave you what you asked for, then you changed it.


Only someone that has a very shallow understanding of the game would think evidence was needed to show that Pippen would fail without MJ - he failed in Houston alongside Hakeem.. He failed in Portland on an utterly stacked team.. He failed in 1994 with an epic choke.

But it's not about him "failing"... It's about him not being a 6-time champion or anyone we'd ever talk about if he didn't get to play with MJ.

He was a towel-boy at Central Arkansas - he needed everything to go right - what happened to Pippen could be in a movie it was so unlikely..

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

Btw, if you think it didn't influence the very impressionable, rookie Pippen when MJ won DPOY in 1988, then your deluding yourself.
Didn't read but...

..Ergo, you're a stupid asshole

[3ball]

How can you say that when you weren't old enough to watch Pippen develop?
I was living in Deefield, IL when Pippen was drafted.

I listened to the games and reports about the practices every day on WMAQ 670.

The reports early on were that Pippen had showed some real flashes in practice apparently posterizing several guys.. But it was all about MJ.. And how it was MJ's job to mentor Pippen and get Pippen ready on both sides of the ball.

I went to bannockburn middle school with Phil Jackson's hot daughters in deerfield.. a bunch of rich jewish kids in that area, we but my family was living in on-campus housing at the local seminary.. Phil also had twin sons who were a few years younger.. My sister outscored his oldest daughter on the basketball team and they had a rivalry.

Okay, this is supposed to be an anonymous board.. I'll stop now.. But I could go on and on and on... I've moved around a lot... Played HS ball in IN... College ball in back near Chicago and then Miami

[3ball]

Didn't read but...

..Ergo, you're a stupid asshole
This is all you need to know:

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and then pray he lands with MJ... LOL, you guys watch too many movies.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

[Kvnzhangyay]

I was living in Deefield, IL when Pippen was drafted.

I listened to the games and reports about the practices every day on WMAQ 670.

The reports early on were that Pippen had showed some real flashes in practice apparently posterizing several guys.. But it was all about MJ.. And how it was MJ's job to mentor Pippen and get Pippen ready on both sides of the ball.

I went to bannockburn middle school with Phil Jackson's hot daughters in deerfield.. a bunch of rich jewish kids in that area, we but my family was living in on-campus housing at the local seminary.. Phil also had twin sons who were a few years younger.. My sister outscored his oldest daughter on the basketball team and they had a rivalry.

Okay, this is supposed to be an anonymous board.. I'll stop now.. But I could go on and on and on... I've moved around a lot... Played HS ball in IN... College ball in back near Chicago and then Miami

You remember stuff from back when you were 11-12? And that's supposed to be reliable? :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

You remember stuff from back when you were 11-12? And that's supposed to be reliable? :roll: :roll:
It's not about me remembering stuff - this IS the consensus today by everyone - this is a part of history - I'm just recounting it for you guys.

Everyone knows MJ's influence on Pippen was massive... And yeah, I remember at the time how people were like "Pippen is starting to look more and more like MJ when he plays".

[97 bulls]

You changed the goalposts, because I provided exactly what you asked for - initially, you said:


"I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided facts showing Pippen did EXACTLY THAT... and so you changed it to "without Jordan ever having being on his team".. I gave you what you asked for, then you changed it.


Only someone that has a very shallow understanding of the game would think evidence was needed to show that Pippen would fail without MJ - he failed in Houston alongside Hakeem.. He failed in Portland on an utterly stacked team.. He failed in 1994 with an epic choke.

But it's not about him "failing"... It's about him not being a 6-time champion or anyone we'd ever talk about if he didn't get to play with MJ.

He was a towel-boy at Central Arkansas - he needed everything to go right - what happened to Pippen could be in a movie it was so unlikely..

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and pray he lands with MJ.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

Btw, if you think it didn't influence the very impressionable, rookie Pippen when MJ won DPOY in 1988, then your deluding yourself.
You didn't answer his question. He asked you to show proof that Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been as good if he never played with Michael Jordan on his team. Which is your assertion. Again, hes asking you to prove it.

[ShawkFactory]

This is all you need to know:

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and then pray he lands with MJ... LOL, you guys watch too many movies.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.
You are someone who well all take COMPLETELY seriously.

[And1AllDay]

So, just to get a count for 3-ball I think it's

Pippen: 92
Worthy: 2

So yeah. Are we done now? :lol

[Dragonyeuw]

3ball, you still havent answered my post from 3 pages back, so I'll summarize:

Prime Worthy had opportunities to score 25ppg. In 1987, Magic increased his scoring to 23.9. Why didnt Worthy take on the burden of increasing his scoring to compensate? Instead, Magic had to increase his scoring as well as run the offense. If Worthy was a boss he would have assumed the lead scoring role.

In 1989, Kareem retires, another opportunity for Worthy to assume a bigger scoring role. Instead, Magic continues to lead the team in scoring. If Worthy was a boss he would have assumed the lead scoring role.

In 91, Worthy leads the team in scoring at 21.4, basically the same as he had averaged on multiple occasions before. Magic's scoring drops from 22 to 19, Kareem is gone. Why didnt he score at a higher rate then?

In 92, both Kareem and Magic is gone. There's no-one on the team capable of taking the shots away from him to prevent 25 ppg, why didnt he score that much then? Instead, he averaged 19.9, less than the 33 year old Dominique scored after a achilles, percentage points less than a cripped Bird scored before he retired at 35. Those are players who proved themselves as elite, high level scorers and even past their primes, STILL scored more than a 31 year old Worthy with Sedale Threatt as his second option.

Awaiting your facts on the matter.

[3ball]

You didn't answer his question.


I did answer his question, which was "I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided evidence by showing him that Pippen failed without MJ in Houston and Portland, and also had the goat meltdown without MJ in 1994.. That's cold, hard evidence - exactly what he asked for.

Anyone can play the "prove it" game.. It's a fact that Pippen improved a tremendous amount alongside MJ - so prove to me this improvement wasn't due to MJ.
.

[3ball]

Why didnt Worthy take on the burden of increasing his scoring to compensate?

If Worthy was a boss he would have assumed the lead scoring role.


You destroyed your own argument by pointing out that Worthy was the Lakers' scoring leader in the 1991 regular season and Finals.

But it doesn't matter.. Worthy always played with other great players, so the team was always trying to win - no one cared about racking up numbers on that team..

You're dumb for thinking he should decide to nut up and take over the scoring just for his ego.. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

But again, if you give Worthy his own team like Pippen had in 1994, where he's the #1 option with no one else even CLOSE - he would average far more than 22.1 ppg.

[Dragonyeuw]

You destroyed your own argument by pointing out that Worthy was the Lakers' scoring leader in the 1991 regular season and Finals.

But it doesn't matter.. Worthy always played with other great players, so the team was always trying to win - no one cared about racking up numbers on that team..

You're dumb for thinking he should decide to nut up and take over the scoring just for his ego.. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

The argument wasn't whether he could lead the team in scoring. Your argument is that he could have scored 25 ppg in the right circumstances. As key players slowed down or left, coinciding with Worthy's prime, significantly boosting his scoring would have been a natural and obvious eventuality. He never avg 25 ppg, or even close to it, regardless of who was or wasn't on the team, including after Kareem and Magic retired, and he was in his prime.

Quote where I said taking over the scoring lead had to do with his ego, instead of you talking out of your ass. If Worthy was capable of 25 ppg, he and not Magic would have boosted his scoring and ego would have nothing to do with it, and everything to do with Worthy demonstrating that he had both the capability and that it was in the best interests of the Lakers that he score more. That it never happens means he either lacked the ability, or the team felt that Magic was the better choice to assume a larger scoring burden. Either way, it shits on your argument.

He had his own team in 92, at 31 years old, and averaged 19.9. Second option was Threatt at 15.1, no-one close. Try again. And to top it off, he was playing a career high 39 minutes a night. More minutes, less scoring options, and no scoring increase. Explain.

Just as you use conjecture, I can do the same and say that if Pippen wasnt expending his energy leading the team in 5 categories, he may have scored more than 22ppg. But I wont use that as an argument because thats just speculation, which is something you seem to confuse with fact.

[Jasper]

worthy was one of the best slasher, break running SF's to run the floor.
His defense was decent,

But Pip was so versatile , it is not funny.

Winning a chip with a tadum' duel of MJ and pip could still do it today.

I don't think Worthy was ever considered more than a 3rd option in LA.
(Nor is our current league have a one two punch as was MJ and pip):basketball

[97 bulls]

I did answer his question, which was "I want evidence that Pippen would have failed without Jordan"

I provided evidence by showing him that Pippen failed without MJ in Houston and Portland, and also had the goat meltdown without MJ in 1994.. That's cold, hard evidence - exactly what he asked for.

Anyone can play the "prove it" game.. It's a fact that Pippen improved a tremendous amount alongside MJ - so prove to me this improvement wasn't due to MJ.
.
No. You didnt. You're making the assertion that had he not had Jordan, he wouldn't have been much more than a Rudy Gay. PROVE IT!!!!!!! Thats what he wants you to do.

[97 bulls]

This is all you need to know:

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and then pray he lands with MJ... LOL, you guys watch too many movies.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.
Again, out the gate, Worthy was the better prospect. But thats not the question. Whibwas the better basketball player? That's the question.

I mean, you keep touting this nonsense about how all things had to go right for Pippen, but this would apply to everyone whos successful.

[DonDadda59]

worthy was one of the best slasher, break running SF's to run the floor.
His defense was decent,

But Pip was so versatile , it is not funny.

Winning a chip with a tadum' duel of MJ and pip could still do it today.

I don't think Worthy was ever considered more than a 3rd option in LA.
(Nor is our current league have a one two punch as was MJ and pip):basketball

:biggums:

He was clearly either the first or second option on the Lakers during several finals runs. He even won Finals MVP in a series that featured Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas. Pippen can't make that claim. Outside of a season and change, he was never the first option during his career. Even after the Bulls dynasty, he was a 3rd-4th option on stacked lineups that never saw the finals.

[GrapeApe]

This is all you need to know:

You guys take the underdog, towel-boy from Central Arkansas that needs everything to go right, and then pray he lands with MJ... LOL, you guys watch too many movies.

I'll take the sure thing - the POY from North Carolina - the #1 overall pick and a virtual lock.. Let's run that interation over 100 times and see who wins - the longshot, or the lock.

Why do you keep saying this nonsense? Pippen averaged 24/10/4 as a senior and was one of the most intriguing prospects in the draft. He was picked 5th for a reason. You make it sound like Jordan found him at a YMCA. Yes, Worthy was a better prospect out of college, but how is that in any way relevant to this thread?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Safe answer, but it really just depends. If my team needs another scorer, somebody that can finish off my playmakers abilities, and create offense for himself, you gotta go with Worthy. That's not to say Pippen can't score, but Worthy was better at it, IMO.

Pippen would be ideal for anybody without an elite and consistent playmaker. Although you could throw him into Andre Iguodala's role and he'd fit just fine.

[LAZERUSS]

Why do you keep saying this nonsense? Pippen averaged 24/10/4 as a senior and was one of the most intriguing prospects in the draft. He was picked 5th for a reason. You make it sound like Jordan found him at a YMCA. Yes, Worthy was a better prospect out of college, but how is that in any way relevant to this thread?

Same with Rodman. No one would have predicted his career by his college play. Of course, 3ball would tell you he was an all-time great with the Bad Boys, and a complete scrub with MJ. Same with "11-8" Grant, who was actually a 14-10 .550 guy from '91 thru '94. And a true ELITE PF in that span (and a FAR greater player than POS loser Bosh was from '11 to '15.) Grant's IMPACT from '91 thru '94 (and actually thru '96) was FAR greater than Bosh's, who was a career loser before Lebron, and a loser after Lebron.

It amazes me the lengths 3ball goes to to diminish Lebron, who by all accounts has been the best player on the planet over the course of the last several seasons. And again, no rational poster here would claim that Lebron was a greater player than MJ, either. BUT, 3ball would have you believe that JR Smith and Shumpert were better players than Pippen, Grant, and Rodman.

BTW, I have posted articles that claimed that Rodman deserved the '96 FMVP, and that Pippen was on his way to a FMVP going into game six of the '98 Finals.

And CLEARLY, the '96-98 Bulls must have had a TON of DEFENSIVE help to overcome MJ's .455, .427, and even .415 shooting in those Finals.

And obviously the proof was in the fact that the '94 Bulls went 55-27 withOUT Jordan (and had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games...likely 60+ wins.) Hell, they came within an eyelash of beating a Knicks team in a seven game series, that would go on to lose a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals by four points.

And even more disturbing, was the fact that a healthy Jordan came back the very next season, and played at essentially the same post-season level as in '93 (and substantially better than his '96 run)...and couldn't get the SAME roster (sans Grant) with the addition of 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, as far as the Pippen-Grant combo had in the previous season.

[RidonKs]

You didn't answer his question. He asked you to show proof that Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been as good if he never played with Michael Jordan on his team. Which is your assertion. Again, hes asking you to prove it.
u can't prove a negative

[97 bulls]

Why do you keep saying this nonsense? Pippen averaged 24/10/4 as a senior and was one of the most intriguing prospects in the draft. He was picked 5th for a reason. You make it sound like Jordan found him at a YMCA. Yes, Worthy was a better prospect out of college, but how is that in any way relevant to this thread?
Exactly. By his logic, I guess he would've picked Michael Olowakandi over or Kwame Brown over Alonzo Mourning or Deke Mutomobo because they (Brown and Olowokandi) were more highly regarded prospects.

[97 bulls]

u can't prove a negative
Right. So why bring it up?

[GrapeApe]

Exactly. By his logic, I guess he would've picked Michael Olowakandi over or Kwame Brown over Alonzo Mourning or Deke Mutomobo because they (Brown and Olowokandi) were more highly regarded prospects.

It's not even that, he's trying to rewrite history to conform to his delusions. Pippen was regarded as having MAJOR upside, hence the reason he was a high lottery pick out of an NAIA school. Did Jordan play a role in his development? Absolutely, but Pippen was going to be a great NBA player regardless.

I'm a 90's kid and a bit of a Jordan stan myself, but that 3ball guy thinks Jordan was some kind if deity. It's absurd. He has a skewed concept of reality.

[3ball]

Why do you keep saying this nonsense? Pippen averaged 24/10/4 as a senior and was one of the most intriguing prospects in the draft. He was picked 5th for a reason. You make it sound like Jordan found him at a YMCA. Yes, Worthy was a better prospect out of college, but how is that in any way relevant to this thread?



24/10 at a low tier D1 school means literally zero.. And why did I call him towel-boy?.. Here's commonly-known facts from Pippen's bio:


[INDENT][I]"As a favor to his high school coach, the University of Central Arkansas offered Pippen a chance to become a student manager of the basketball team. His freshman year, however, Pippen ended up making the team as a walk-on. Over the next four seasons, Pippen's growth in height

[TripleA]

[QUOTE=3ball]24/10 at a low tier D1 school means literally zero.. And why did I call him towel-boy?.. Here's commonly-known facts from Pippen's bio:


[INDENT][I]"As a favor to his high school coach, the University of Central Arkansas offered Pippen a chance to become a student manager of the basketball team. His freshman year, however, Pippen ended up making the team as a walk-on. Over the next four seasons, Pippen's growth in height

[97 bulls]

So who would you pick? Christian Laetner or Karl Malone

[3ball]

Pippen is better in reality.



That's debateable, and the towel-boy from Central Arkansas who was super-raw and needed a ton of development was certainly an underdog to land in a situation where he could develop to the maximum.

The fact that he landed with MJ so he could develop to the maximum was like a movie in it's likelihood, which is why the certainty of Worthy is the better option - especially considering how "in reality", as you said (more like results-oriented though), it's close between Worthy and Pippen.. But if we're not being results-oriented, it's not close.. Worthy is better.

[GrapeApe]

[QUOTE=3ball]24/10 at a low tier D1 school means literally zero.. And why did I call him towel-boy?.. Here's commonly-known facts from Pippen's bio:

[INDENT][I]"As a favor to his high school coach, the University of Central Arkansas offered Pippen a chance to become a student manager of the basketball team. His freshman year, however, Pippen ended up making the team as a walk-on. Over the next four seasons, Pippen's growth in height

[Jailblazers7]

OK switch Pip and Worthy. Anybody really think Scottie wouldn't be top 50 all time being mentored by Magic?

[houston]

pippen of course

[Timmy D for MVP]

I love James Worthy and the man is an absolute legend and had an unbelievable career.

But I'll take Scottie every day of the week. His versatility makes him one of those players that if you were looking to build a team you wouldn't have too many names ahead of his to fill a lot of roles. I've always seen him as this perfect complimentary player prototype.

[3ball]

OK switch Pip and Worthy. Anybody really think Scottie wouldn't be top 50 all time being mentored by Magic?
Under which mentor would Pippen be the better defender?

Would it be under MJ, who won DPOY in Pippen's rookie season of 1988, or Magic?

The raw and scrawny Pippen is the perfect candidate to get BURIED on the bench behind all those stars in LA... Good thing he went to the Bulls where his 7.9 ppg was able to get a little burn.

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen

[97 bulls]

Under which mentor would Pippen be the better defender?

Would it be under MJ, who won DPOY in Pippen's rookie season of 1988, or Magic?

The raw and scrawny Pippen is the perfect candidate to get BURIED on the bench behind all those stars in LA... Good thing he went to the Bulls where his 7.9 ppg was able to get a little burn.
You dont think he would've been a better offensive player playing next to magic

[3ball]

You dont think he would've been a better offensive player playing next to magic


Again, even though Pippen got significant playing time in Chicago is rookie season, he only averaged 7.9 ppg.

This type of undeveloped player isn't sufficient to get ANY playing time on the b2b Lakers in 1988 - their championship team was one of the most stacked teams of all time.

The raw Pippen would get buried on the bench amongst LA's championship roster of veteran all-stars, and never get a chance to develop like he did on the Bulls.. So his offense never develops, and his defense doesn't either, without the DPOY-winner (MJ) to mentor him his rookie year in 1988.
.

[3ball]

Again, even though Pippen got significant playing time in Chicago is rookie season, he only averaged 7.9 ppg.

This type of undeveloped player isn't sufficient to get ANY playing time on the b2b Lakers in 1988 - their championship team was one of the most stacked teams of all time.

The raw Pippen would get buried on the bench amongst LA's championship roster of veteran all-stars, and never get a chance to develop like he did on the Bulls.. So his offense never develops, and his defense doesn't either, without the DPOY-winner (MJ) to mentor him his rookie year in 1988.


http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Is-There-Anyone-Else-Achilles-In-Troy.gif
.

[97 bulls]

Again, even though Pippen got significant playing time in Chicago is rookie season, he only averaged 7.9 ppg.

This type of undeveloped player isn't sufficient to get ANY playing time on the b2b Lakers in 1988 - their championship team was one of the most stacked teams of all time.

The raw Pippen would get buried on the bench amongst LA's championship roster of veteran all-stars, and never get a chance to develop like he did on the Bulls.. So his offense never develops, and his defense doesn't either, without the DPOY-winner (MJ) to mentor him his rookie year in 1988.
.
Why would he get barried on the bench? Hed still be a top 5 lottery pick. Who would start over him by the mid 80s?

[3ball]

Why would he get barried on the bench? Hed still be a top 5 lottery pick. Who would start over him by the mid 80s?
Remember what we are considering - whether Pippen would've been worse without MJ and whether you could replace Worthy with Pippen.. Pippen's rookie year was 1988 - so if he goes to the b2b champion Lakers instead of MJ's lowly Bulls, the Lakers have no room to give him ANY playing time.

They had just won the ring the year before and weren't going to play a 7.9 ppg-caliber rookie over ANY of their players.. This is all but fact - therefore, Pippen doesn't develop the same way while buried on the Lakers' bench, as he did getting meaningful playing time on the Bulls, learning to be MJ's #2.

You wanted proof that Pippen would be worse - there it is... Pippen doesn't get playing time in 1988 on a good team, so he doesn't develop the same way as he did on the Bulls.. And on ANY other bad team, he doesn't develop like he did on MJ's bad team.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Remember what we are considering - whether Pippen would've been worse without MJ and whether you could replace Worthy with Pippen.. Pippen's rookie year was 1988 - so if he goes to the b2b champion Lakers instead of MJ's lowly Bulls, the Lakers have no room to give him ANY playing time.

They had just won the ring the year before and weren't going to play a 7.9 ppg-caliber rookie over ANY of their players.. This is all but fact - therefore, Pippen doesn't develop the same way while buried on the Lakers' bench, as he did getting meaningful playing time on the Bulls, learning to be MJ's #2.

You wanted proof that Pippen would be worse - there it is... Pippen doesn't get playing time in 1988 on a good team, so he doesn't develop the same way as he did on the Bulls.. And on ANY other bad team, he doesn't develop like he did on MJ's bad team.
.

Oh, so the OP was not about who the better player was, which was clearly Pippen, but rather who the better prospect coming out of college was.

Glad you clarified that. By that reasoning, Sam Bowie was a better player than MJ, right?

[97 bulls]

Remember what we are considering - whether Pippen would've been worse without MJ and whether you could replace Worthy with Pippen.. Pippen's rookie year was 1988 - so if he goes to the b2b champion Lakers instead of MJ's lowly Bulls, the Lakers have no room to give him ANY playing time.
This makes no sense. Just to humor you, who replaces Worthy? Unless you feel the Lakers win without him? If youre point is tge Lakers wouldn't play Pippen because he wouldn't get any burn over an already established James Worthy, then I'd have to agree. But again, why would the Lakers even draft Pippen? Why would they even be in the lottery? You need to have some sort of structure to your argument.


You wanted proof that Pippen would be worse - there it is... Pippen doesn't get playing time in 1988 on a good team, so he doesn't develop the same way as he did on the Bulls.. And on ANY other bad team, he doesn't develop like he did on MJ's bad team.
.
This isn't proof. This is an opinion. I feel that if Pippen plays in the 80s, with Magic, his ppg would be around 22-23 on 55% shooting because hed get more FGAs under that fastbreak offense. And he'd really be able to utilze his athleticism for offense.

As far as his defense, he was gonna be at the least a very good defender no matter what. He was being compared to Dennis Rodman comming out of the draft.

He was a better rebounder than Worthy as well. I think Pippen in the 80s would avg 22/9/4-5 on 55% shooting. His assist would take a hit because Magic dominates the ball.

[3ball]

Oh, so the OP was not about who the better player was, which was clearly Pippen, but rather who the better prospect coming out of college was.


That's not what my post said at all.

By showing that Pippen wouldn't have developed the same way without MJ, we prove that Worthy was the better player.. In order to avoid being results-oriented, the only way to see who is truly better is to evaluate how they would do if we drafted them to 100 different teams.

Even WITH Pippen playing alongide MJ, it's close between him and Worthy.

Certainly without MJ, Pippen is nowhere near Worthy.. For example, he doesn't develop the same way if he was drafted to 1988 champion Lakers instead of the 1988 Bulls - no 7.9 ppg rookie gets playing time on the champion Lakers' roster of veteran all-stars.

[GrapeApe]

Again, even though Pippen got significant playing time in Chicago is rookie season, he only averaged 7.9 ppg.

This type of undeveloped player isn't sufficient to get ANY playing time on the b2b Lakers in 1988 - their championship team was one of the most stacked teams of all time.

The raw Pippen would get buried on the bench amongst LA's championship roster of veteran all-stars, and never get a chance to develop like he did on the Bulls.. So his offense never develops, and his defense doesn't either, without the DPOY-winner (MJ) to mentor him his rookie year in 1988.
.

Again, all completely irrelevant to the discussion. What's relevant is that Pippen was a better NBA player. He had a better career, more individual accolades, better all around numbers, and was an MVP and DPOY candidate in his prime.

BTW, Pippen being a great player in no way diminishes MJ. I don't care how good you are, you cannot achieve the level of success that MJ achieved without having great teammates. Why is that concept so hard to accept?

[LAZERUSS]

That's not what my post said at all.

By showing that Pippen wouldn't have developed the same way without MJ, we prove that Worthy was the better player.. In order to avoid being results-oriented, the only way to see who is truly better is to evaluate how they would do if we drafted them to 100 different teams.

Even WITH Pippen playing alongide MJ, it's close between him and Worthy.

Certainly without MJ, Pippen is nowhere near Worthy.. For example, he doesn't develop the same way if he was drafted to 1988 champion Lakers instead of the 1988 Bulls - no 7.9 ppg rookie gets playing time on the champion Lakers' roster of veteran all-stars.

Damn...I guess Pippen better apologize to the HOF voters then. We now CONCLUSIVELY KNOW, that without Jordan, he wouldn't have even made an NBA team, much less go on to be a Top-40 player all-time.

That lowly bastard.

[3ball]

This makes no sense. Just to humor you, who replaces Worthy? Unless you feel the Lakers win without him? If youre point is tge Lakers wouldn't play Pippen because he wouldn't get any burn over an already established James Worthy, then I'd have to agree. But again, why would the Lakers even draft Pippen? Why would they even be in the lottery? You need to have some sort of structure to your argument.


You still don't understand what I've been saying - we don't need to replace Worthy - he'd still be there... The reason this whole discussion first started is because someone claimed that Pippen would develop the same way under Magic as he did under MJ - but there would be zero playing time for a 7.9 ppg rookie on the 1988 Lakers' championship roster of veteran all-stars.. Pippen would be buried on the bench.

Whereas he got tons of playing time on the lowly Bulls in 1988, as he learned to be MJ's #2 - therefore, he was able to develop much more on both sides of the ball than he would buried on the Lakers' bench.. And obviously, his rookie year defense was influenced far more by playing next to the dpoy-winner (MJ), than it would next to Magic.





I feel that if Pippen plays in the 80s, with Magic, his ppg would be around 22-23 on 55% shooting


Again, you're assuming this is the MJ-developed Pippen that won 6 rings..

If he was drafted by the Lakers in 1988, he gets no playing time.. There simply wouldn't be any playing time for a 7.9 ppg rookie on that championship roster of veteran all-stars.

[LAZERUSS]

This makes no sense. Just to humor you, who replaces Worthy?

Why none other than the legendary Pete Myers, of course.

He could basically replace anyone, as evidenced by his '94 season, when he carried a team with scrubs like Pippen and Grant, to a 55-27 season.

[GrapeApe]

Damn...I guess Pippen better apologize to the HOF voters then. We now CONCLUSIVELY KNOW, that without Jordan, he wouldn't have even made an NBA team, much less go on to be a Top-40 player all-time.

That lowly bastard.

Lol. I've noticed he struggles with the concepts of "proof" and "fact". He uses subjective revisionist scenarios as "proof", and then refers to their hypothetical outcomes as "facts". Meanwhile he completely dismisses tangible and quantifiable evidence.

[3ball]

Lol. I've noticed he struggles with the concepts of "proof" and "fact". He uses subjective revisionist scenarios as "proof", and then refers to their hypothetical outcomes as "facts". Meanwhile he completely dismisses tangible and quantifiable evidence.


This is tangible and quantifiable - Pippen was a much more raw, undeveloped, and impressionable player, who needed to find the right situation to succeed in the NBA - this is proven with the 1988 Laker example.

If he were drafted to a good team like the 88' Lakers, he'd never get to play, and much of his early development would be pushed back a few years or never occur - either way, he'd be less likely to develop the maximum he was capable.

If he was drafted to any variety of bad teams, he wouldn't develop the same way that he did alongside MJ - much of Pippen's value was his defense - he simply wouldn't have developed the same way on that end alongside Barkley or Magic (while buried on the bench) as he did alongside MJ, the dpoy winner in Pippen's rookie year..

And most significant is the offensive end - Pippen was BAD his first couple years - he had no moves, bad handle, sloppy, scrawny, rigid.. bad shooter.. But look how much he improved - then look at who he was watching every single day on and off the court.. He's simply NOT going to improve that much offensively alongside Barkley as he did alongside the goat.. And as for Magic - I'm sure Pippen would improve OFF-ball... :confusedshrug:
.

[97 bulls]

You still don't understand what I've been saying - we don't need to replace Worthy - he'd still be there... The reason this whole discussion first started is because someone claimed that Pippen would develop the same way under Magic as he did under MJ - but there would be zero playing time for a 7.9 ppg rookie on the 1988 Lakers' championship roster of veteran all-stars.. Pippen would be buried on the bench.

Whereas he got tons of playing time on the lowly Bulls in 1988, as he learned to be MJ's #2 - therefore, he was able to develop much more on both sides of the ball than he would buried on the Lakers' bench.. And obviously, his rookie year defense was influenced far more by playing next to the dpoy-winner (MJ), than it would next to Magic.



Again, you're assuming this is the MJ-developed Pippen that won 6 rings..

If he was drafted by the Lakers in 1988, he gets no playing time.. There simply wouldn't be any playing time for a 7.9 ppg rookie on that championship roster of veteran all-stars.
I see what your saying. Under this scenario, I agree. But this would never happen. Why would the Lakers even be in the Lottery and then, why would they draft another SF?

And essentially, what you're saying is Pippen is better than Worthy thanks to Jordan. But hes still ultra talented regardless. So why so much angst?

[3ball]

I see what your saying. Under this scenario, I agree. But this would never happen. Why would the Lakers even be in the Lottery and then, why would they draft another SF?

And essentially, what you're saying is Pippen is better than Worthy thanks to Jordan. But hes still ultra talented regardless. So why so much angst?
No, I'm saying if you want to be results-oriented (and only contemplate the MJ-developed Pippen), it could go either way.. But if you are being realistic and considering how they would do if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Pippen was a much more raw, undeveloped player, who needed to find the right situation to succeed in the NBA develop the most he was capable - this is proven with the 1988 Laker example.

If he were drafted to a good team like the 88' Lakers, he'd never get to play - that championship roster of veteran all-stars had no room for a 7.9 ppg rookie, so and much of Pippen's early development would be pushed back a few years or never occur - either way, he'd be less likely to develop the maximum he was capable on the Lakers or any good team.

If he was drafted to any variety of bad teams, he wouldn't develop the same way that he did alongside MJ - much of Pippen's value was his defense - he simply wouldn't have developed the same way on that end alongside Barkley or Magic (while buried on the bench) as he did alongside MJ, the dpoy winner in Pippen's rookie year..

And most significant is the offensive end - Pippen was BAD his first couple years - he had no moves, bad handle, sloppy, scrawny, rigid.. bad shooter.. But look how much he improved - then look at who he was watching every single day on and off the court.. He's simply NOT going to improve that much offensively alongside Barkley as he did alongside the goat.. And as for Magic - I'm sure Pippen would improve OFF-ball alongside him, but there was only 1 primary ballhandler on the Lakers... :confusedshrug:

[And1AllDay]

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Is-There-Anyone-Else-Achilles-In-Troy.gif
.

So, um...

So far it's:

Pippen: 98
Worthy: 3

We done? Or...?

[97 bulls]

No, I'm saying if you want to be results-oriented (and only contemplate the MJ-developed Pippen), it could go either way.. But if you are being realistic and considering how they would do if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.
Under no metric is Worthy better than Pippen during their respective NBA careers. I.agree Worthy was a better prospect but that's as far as it goes. Pippen was the better reboinder, defender, passer, playmaker, beter at blocks, steals, more range, better ball handler. Pippen was even a better scorer in that he could beat you in different ways.

We will never agree as to how much credit Jordan deserves for Pippens career. I feel Jorran helped, but Pippen was talented either way. Their games weren't similar, and their styles weren't similar either.

[3ball]

So, um...

So far it's:

Pippen: 98
Worthy: 3

We done? Or...?


It's about even and the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and using a bad way of evaluating it by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen.. But if you're being realistic and considering how they would do if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Pippen was a raw, undeveloped player, who needed to find the right situation to develop the most he was capable - this is proven with the 1988 Laker example.

If he were drafted to a good team like the 88' Lakers, he'd never get to play - that championship roster of veteran all-stars had no room for a 7.9 ppg rookie, so and much of Pippen's early development would be pushed back a few years or never occur - either way, he'd be less likely to develop the maximum he was capable on the Lakers or any good team.

If he was drafted to any variety of bad teams, he wouldn't develop the same way that he did alongside MJ - much of Pippen's value was his defense - he simply wouldn't have developed the same way on that end alongside Barkley or Magic as he did alongside MJ, the dpoy winner in Pippen's rookie year..

And most significant is the offensive end - Pippen was BAD his first couple years - he had no moves, bad handle, sloppy, scrawny, rigid.. bad shooter.. But look how much he improved - then look at who he was watching every single day on and off the court.. He's simply NOT going to improve that much offensively alongside Barkley as he did alongside the goat.. And as for Magic - I'm sure Pippen would improve OFF-ball alongside him, but there was only 1 primary ballhandler on the Lakers... :confusedshrug:

[And1AllDay]

[I]It's about even and the Pippen backers are being results-oriented

Um, no not even. Count the totals and see for yourself. Or start a new thread and create a poll to keep count...

[3ball]

.
Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so we'll just use TS% and ORtg for efficiency.. Here are the relevant stats:


REGULAR SEASON

MJ..... 31.4 PPG, 58.2% TS, 122 ORtg, 0.288 WS/48, 3 All-Defense 1st Team, 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 PPG, 58.0% TS, 115 ORtg, 0.264 WS/48, 2 All-Defense 2nd Team, 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 PPG, 57.2% TS, 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 PPG, 56.2% TS, 113 ORtg, 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ..... 36.3 PPG, 52.6% FG, 84.3% FT, played #5, #3, #9 defenses, beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 PPG, 59.5% FG, 50.6% FT, played #13, #5, #1 defenses, beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd
.

[Dragonyeuw]

This, by no means, is to say that Pippen is as great as Kobe Bryant. But on Kobe, anyone recall that he was buried on the bench his first year behind? Then he exploded as a supersub his second, was a developing star his third, legit star his 4th, and a top 3 superstar level player his 5th. There was no MJ level talent that Kobe had on the team, though he was obviously studying closely from afar. But there was no direct everyday influence. The main point is, Kobe had the talent and gift to play basketball, and that greatness was not going to be denied even being a benchplayer his first 2 season. The cream will eventually rise to the top.

Taking that and applying it to Pippen, Pip was talented coming out of college. If you're a top 5 draft pick, scouts have already assessed your game and determined that there are NBA quality attributes present. Now lets go with this theory of him being drafted on the Lakers. The same scenario of being on the bench would most certainly play out.

But after that, how do we know for sure that Pippen doesnt develop greatness playing with or against Magic? Was Magic any less a leader or competitor than MJ? No. Would Pip have developed with a slightly different looking game? Quite likely, but realize that Pip was 6'8 225 coming out of college with athleticism being compared to Dr. J. If we're going to play the 'Scottie was made' game, why can't he be influenced by who was on LA, hell even including Worthy? Why cant we assume that Pip's talents wouldnt be harnessed playing with Magic, his ballhandling, decision-making, postgame? His talents and athleticism, length were all ideal for a fast and open offense so how do we know for sure that Pippen wouldn't have become great anyway? That he becomes good enough to even make Worthy expendable, the same way Kobe made Eddie Jones expendable?

There is no way to quantity how much MJ helped him, just as there would be no way to quantity how much Magic helps. But we're dealing with hypotheticals here, nothing more. My belief is that Scottie had talents that would have led to being a great player. Was he influenced by MJ? No doubt, but its not measurable and ultimately, pretty irrelevant in the context of the TC question.

Do you take Worthy over Pip out of college? No shit. You probably take Worthy over MJ if both were available too. The question was, who was the better player. Pippen was, whether he was influenced by MJ and to what degree is beside the issue. What's interesting is that its never been mentioned that Worthy, even as a very good player coming out of college, couldnt possibly have improved playing with Magic and Kareem. No, everything that Worthy was he accomplished with ZERO influence. But literally Scottie Pippen owes his entire existence to Michael Jordan. Thats the argument being established in this thread.

[Dragonyeuw]

7
So, um...

So far it's:

Pippen: 98
Worthy: 3

We done? Or...?

Remember, for the poster in question this is more about MJs greatness than Pippen vs Worthy. In his mind, acknowledging that Pippen was great diminishes MJ. There's nothing more to this game, just another opportunity to delve into a few gigs of pro MJ arguments and gifs sitting on his HDD that are copy and pasted into any thread where MJ is a topic and even ones where he isnt.

[3ball]

This, by no means, is to say that Pippen is as great as Kobe Bryant. But on Kobe, anyone recall that he was buried on the bench his first year behind?


Kobe was not undeveloped and raw - he already had a refined game, DUE TO WATCHING MJ, the same thing I'm saying Pippen did to get better.. Since Kobe had already patterned his game after MJ, he already had all those things on the offensive end - he simply wasn't getting playing time because the 1997 Lakers had 2 all-stars (Shaq, SG Eddie Jones) and veteran Van Exel..

Otoh, Pippen's basic skills were much less developed than Kobe, and being put alongside MJ,brought out the maximum amount of these qualities, just like it did for Kobe.. Pippen's development defensively was also maximized by being alonside MJ, the dpoy in Pippen's rookie year.. Any other mentor would've had a lesser positive influence than MJ on either side of the floor.





Now lets go with this theory of him being drafted on the Lakers. The same scenario of being on the bench would most certainly play out.

But after that, how do we know for sure that Pippen doesnt develop greatness playing with or against Magic? Was Magic any less a leader or competitor than MJ?


You're asking how we know for sure Pippen wouldn't develop as well with Magic?.. We know the most likely scenario is that his learning curve is delayed, because there was no playing time for a 22-year old, 7.9 ppg-caliber rookie that needs a ton of improvement, on the 88' Lakers championship roster of veteran all-stars.. Pippen's learning curve would be delayed at best.. So if you want to believe that he WOULD develop as well alongside Magic, understand you're taking the less likely scenario.. Pippen needed needed to be on a BAD team to get playing time as a rookie (which he found on MJ's lowly Bulls) - and even then was never a guarantee that a undeveloped player like Pippen would become a developed one.. It has to be the right situation for any player that needs a ton of improvement like Pippen did.

Worthy didn't need much improvement or need such a learning curve, nor did he need to be on a bad team to get playing time - 22-year old Worthy got 18/5 on 60% field goal percentage in the 1984 playoffs, including 22 ppg in the 7-game Finals vs. the Celtics.. Worthy could succeed in any situation so he wasn't a gamble, which is why if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if each player were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Again, the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and evaluating the situation poorly by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen, which happened to be the optimal situation for him to develop on both sides of the ball - but the Laker example where he would be buried on the bench proves that the raw, undeveloped Pippen needed to find the right situation to develop the maximum amount he was capable (and obviously, any undeveloped player needs the right situation; it's never guaranteed for a player that needed a lot of improvement like Pippen).. So again, if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

[Rocketswin2013]

So Jordan made Bryant because Bryant modeled his game after him, and Jordan made Pippen because he...was good. Not at all similar as a player.


Dumb fakkit.
Edit:
:roll:

:roll:

Kobe Bryant was refined as a young player? How did I miss that? :roll: :roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe was not undeveloped and raw - he already had a refined game, DUE TO WATCHING MJ, the same thing I'm saying Pippen did to get better.. Since Kobe had already patterned his game after MJ, he already had all those things on the offensive end - he simply wasn't getting playing time because the 1997 Lakers had 2 all-stars (Shaq, SG Eddie Jones) and veteran Van Exel..

Otoh, Pippen's basic skills were much less developed than Kobe, and being put alongside MJ,brought out the maximum amount of these qualities, just like it did for Kobe.. Pippen's development defensively was also maximized by being alonside MJ, the dpoy in Pippen's rookie year.. Any other mentor would've had a lesser positive influence than MJ on either side of the floor.



How do we know Pippen wouldn't develop as well with Magic?.. We know the most likely scenario is that his learning curve is delayed, because there was no room for a 22-year old, 7.9 ppg-caliber rookie on the 88' Lakers championship roster of veteran all-stars.. So if you want to believe that he WOULD develop as well alongside Magic, understand you are taking the less likely scenario, based on Pippen's learning curve being delayed from waiting his turn behind a bunch of champion, veteran all-stars.. The undeveloped Pippen needed to be on a bad team to get playing time as a rookie and speed up his learning curve (which he found on MJ's lowly Bulls) - and even then it's never a guarantee than an undeveloped player will become a developed one.. It has to be the right situation for an undeveloped player.

Worthy was less raw and didn't have such a learning curve, nor need to be on a bad team to get playing time - 22-year old Worthy got 18/5 on 60% field goal percentage in the 1984 playoffs, including 22 ppg in the 7-game Finals vs. the Celtics.. Worthy did not need to land on a bad team to get playing time or lane in the right situation to guarantee development like the raw Pippen - he could succeed in any situation, which is why if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if each player were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Again, the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and evaluating the situation poorly by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen - this Laker example where he would be buried on the bench proves that the raw, undeveloped Pippen needed to find the right situation to develop the maximum amount he was capable.. So again, ifyou're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.
.

So in other words, you really have no idea how Pippen would have developed on the Lakers. He had exactly one player positionally in front of him...Worthy. Just as Kobe had one player positionally ahead of him when he joined the Lakers, Eddie Jones and if you want to take it further the 97 Lakers similarly had veterans on the squad in front of Kobe. Name all these forwards on the 88 Lakers that would have kept Pippen role player for years. If MJ saw something in Pippen and took him under his wing( your argument), then why wouldn't Magic do the same? There has to be talent there to mold, which keeps going over your head. You act like Pip was some talentless hack that MJ waved his hand over and bestowed talent upon him like the Monstars. This isn't Space Jam.

Your problem when assessing all these more/less likely scenarios that you use to pass your opinion off as fact, is the guy you spend more time than anyone else defending was himself not a guaranteed thing, at least what he now know him as. MJ never came into the league hyped as the next great thing, at best an all-star who would have a very good career. There are several players, who were more hyped coming out of college, and obviously wound up lesser players.

Also, on the topic of dumbest things I've read that you threw out there earlier, stands the comment that Kobe came into the league refined. No he ****ing didn't, he came into the league talented, not refined.

Also, Worthy started one game his rookie year and averaged 13.5. The fate of the franchise wasn't exactly resting on his shoulders when he came into the league.

[Dragonyeuw]

So Jordan made Bryant because Bryant modeled his game after him, and Jordan made Pippen because he...was good. Not at all similar as a player.


Dumb fakkit.

Basically. Kobe and Pippen weren't talented players destined for their own greatness. Kobe became good studying MJ tapes, and the talent and ability transported from those tapes into Kobe's body. But Pip had it even better, MJ being born encouraged Scottie's parents to have sex and conceive. That's how far back MJ's greatness and influence goes.

[97 bulls]

Basically. Kobe and Pippen weren't talented players destined for their own greatness. Kobe became good studying MJ tapes, and the talent and ability transported from those tapes into Kobe's body. But Pip had it even better, MJ being born encouraged Scottie's parents to have sex and conceive. That's how far back MJ's greatness and influence goes.
And this is the problem with Jordan fans like 3ball. They refuse to acknowledge that Pippen was extremely talented to begin with. And refuse to even consider a scenario where Pippen couldve became great under the tuteledge of another player or coaches. I personally think he would've been a better player had he stayed in Seattle with Lenny Wilkins and Gary Payton. He definitely wouldnt have won as much, but he definitely would've been a better player.

The triangle offense stifled Pippen in my opinion. It limited his greatest offensive strength. His athleticism. And the triangle was implemented in an effort to take the ball out of Jordan's hands. So in a way, Jordan kinda hurt Pippen as much as he helped him

[Dragonyeuw]

And this is the problem with Jordan fans like 3ball. They refuse to acknowledge that Pippen was extremely talented to begin with. And refuse to even consider a scenario where Pippen couldve became great under the tuteledge of another player or coaches. I personally think he would've been a better player had he stayed in Seattle with Lenny Wilkins and Gary Payton. He definitely wouldnt have won as much, but he definitely would've been a better player.

The triangle offense stifled Pippen in my opinion. It limited his greatest offensive strength. His athleticism. And the triangle was implemented in an effort to take the ball out of Jordan's hands. So in a way, Jordan kinda hurt Pippen as much as he helped him

I've always thought that Pippen would have best thrived in the west, in a more free-flowing and faster pace as opposed to the controlled environment of the triangle. But where 3ball is concerned this isnt even about Pippen, as much as it is this strange obsession to belittle anything that he perceives as taking from MJ's greatness. So we dare not credit Pippen at all, because in his mind thats an insulting MJ's legacy.

[3ball]

I've always thought that Pippen would have best thrived in the west, in a more free-flowing and faster pace as opposed to the controlled environment of the triangle.


Not if he can't get any playing time.. On the 1988 Lakers, there was no room for Pippen's 7.9 ppg play on their championship roster of veterans..

Pippen needed a ton of improvement when he first came in the league, so he needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time.. His undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.





So we dare not credit Pippen at all, because in his mind thats an insulting MJ's legacy.


You guys say stuff like "MJ needed Pippen" when this is a dumb argument because all players need help to win (it's 5-on-5, not 1-on-5).

But Pippen was less help than MJ's peers enjoyed.. So if he's doing better than his peers with the least help, then what's the point of saying he needed anyone?... Everyone else needed MORE.

Also, I proved why Worthy was better than Pippen - Pippen needed a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land in the right situation - he couldn't have gone to a good team like the 1988 Lakers, because his 7.9 ppg-caliber play would never get any playing time on their championship roster of veterans.. He needed to land on a bad team to get playing time.

But with Worthy, he didn't need to land in the "right" situation, because he was already good, so there was no such gamble with him - he could succeed in any situation, which is why if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if each player were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Again, the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and evaluating the situation poorly by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen - but the Laker example proves that the raw, undeveloped Pippen needed to find the right situation to develop the maximum amount he was capable.. So again, if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.
.

[Dragonyeuw]

Not if he can't get any playing time.. On the 1988 Lakers, there was no room for Pippen's 7.9 ppg play on their championship roster of veterans..

Pippen needed a ton of improvement when he first came in the league, so he needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time.. His undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.



You guys say stuff like "MJ needed Pippen" when this is a dumb argument because all players need help to win (it's 5-on-5, not 1-on-5).

But Pippen was less help than MJ's peers enjoyed.. So if he's doing better than his peers with the least help, then what's the point of saying he needed anyone?... Everyone else needed MORE.

Also, I proved why Worthy was better than Pippen - Pippen needed a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land in the right situation - he couldn't have gone to a good team like the 1988 Lakers, because his 7.9 ppg-caliber play would never get any playing time on their championship roster of veterans.. He needed to land on a bad team to get playing time.

But with Worthy, he didn't need to land in the "right" situation, because he was already good, so there was no such gamble with him - he could succeed in any situation, which is why if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if each player were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

Again, the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and evaluating the situation poorly by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen - but the Laker example proves that the raw, undeveloped Pippen needed to find the right situation to develop the maximum amount he was capable.. So again, if you're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.
.

Scorer:Slight edge Worthy, Pippen still better at creating his own shot. Worthy better in big game scenarios only real edge
Defender: Pippen by a huge margin
Rebounder: Pippen
Passer/Playmaker: Pippen

Verdict: Pippen



http://i.imgur.com/BSIvAlL.gif

[3ball]

Scorer:Slight edge Worthy
Big games: Worthy much better
Defender: Pippen by a huge margin
Rebounder: Pippen
Passer/Playmaker: Pippen

Verdict: Pippen


When you list Pippen's qualities like that, you're listing the MJ-developed Pippen, which is not considering all scenarios and therefore being results-oriented.

The reality is that Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.





we dare not credit Pippen at all, because in his mind thats an insulting MJ's legacy.


You guys are irrational regarding Pippen, so I have to set you straight.

You say stuff like "MJ needed Pippen" when this is a dumb argument because all players need help to win (it's 5-on-5, not 1-on-5).

But Pippen was less help than MJ's peers enjoyed.. So if he's doing better than his peers with the least help, then what's the point of saying he needed anyone?... Everyone else needed MORE.

[And1AllDay]

Tally:

Pippen: 99
Worthy: 7

[Dragonyeuw]

When you list Pippen's qualities like that, you're listing the MJ-developed Pippen, which is not considering all scenarios and therefore being results-oriented.

The reality is that Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.



You guys are irrational regarding Pippen, so I have to set you straight.

You say stuff like "MJ needed Pippen" when this is a dumb argument because all players need help to win (it's 5-on-5, not 1-on-5).

But Pippen was less help than MJ's peers enjoyed.. So if he's doing better than his peers with the least help, then what's the point of saying he needed anyone?... Everyone else needed MORE.


Scorer:Slight edge Worthy, Pippen still better at creating his own shot. Worthy better in big game scenarios only real edge
Defender: Pippen by a huge margin
Rebounder: Pippen
Passer/Playmaker: Pippen

Verdict: Pippen

[bizil]

Scorer:Slight edge Worthy, Pippen still better at creating his own shot. Worthy better in big game scenarios only real edge
Defender: Pippen by a huge margin
Rebounder: Pippen
Passer/Playmaker: Pippen

Verdict: Pippen

That's a great breakdown! In order to trump a guy like Pippen or at least argue it, u gotta be guys like this:

Bron
Dr. J
Bird
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
Durant
Bernard King
Alex English

If u aren't on that level of player, U CAN'T EVEN ARGUE being better than a peak Pippen. Worthy wasn't on that level of SF. He had many of the same tools to dominate, but he didn't utilize them in a dominant enough fashion. Not a true gold standard alpha dog scorer. But likely as good as it gets on that next level of scorer.

[Dragonyeuw]

That's a great breakdown! In order to trump a guy like Pippen or at least argue it, u gotta be guys like this:

Bron
Dr. J
Bird
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
Durant
Bernard King
Alex English

If u aren't on that level of player, U CAN'T EVEN ARGUE being better than a peak Pippen. Worthy wasn't on that level of SF. He had many of the same tools to dominate, but he didn't utilize them in a dominant enough fashion. Not a true gold standard alpha dog scorer. But likely as good as it gets on that next level of scorer.

Yep, and even thinking more about it scoring-wise, I'm not going to outright concede scoring to Worthy either. I think Pip's scoring is a bit underrated, he was a streaky shooter( did have that great bank shot), great coast to coast, very good post game, very good slasher. The primary flaw in his offense was he wasn't a great iso scorer in terms of breaking his man down off the dribble.

Worthy's main attribute was scoring, that's what he spent most of his energy on. Pippen was putting up 19-22 ppg along with GOAT level perimeter defense. In the end, his overall skill set clearly trumps Worthy. That said, I'm not of the mindset that all skills are equal in value. Being a dominant scorer who can carry a team while being the defense's focus carries a great deal of weight, and the players you mentioned fit that description. But Worthy doesn't, Pippen doesn't, so this is where the sum of parts comes into play ala the breakdown I gave.

[nzahir]

Pippen, he is seriously underrated on offense. Put up 22 pts a game without MJ, probably never could be the number 1 scoring option on offense but he was a good playmaker and could share the spotlight if he had another guy to score 22-25 a game.
And then pippens defense compared to worthy isnt close. Pippen still deserves 1 dpoy the year between 92-95

[ClipperRevival]

Pippen, he is seriously underrated on offense. Put up 22 pts a game without MJ, probably never could be the number 1 scoring option on offense but he was a good playmaker and could share the spotlight if he had another guy to score 22-25 a game.
And then pippens defense compared to worthy isnt close. Pippen still deserves 1 dpoy the year between 92-95

It's just hard for a perimeter player to win DPOY when there are so many dominant bigs who can protect the paint. Pip simply played in the wrong era. He might be a multiple DPOY winner in today's era. But he had to compete against Olajuwon, DRob, Mutombo, Mourning, Rodman, etc.

[kshutts1]

When you list Pippen's qualities like that, you're listing the MJ-developed Pippen, which is not considering all scenarios and therefore being results-oriented.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[kshutts1]

I don't want to misunderstand you 3ball, but it really reads as though you said we have to consider the player Pippen "might" have been if he didn't play with MJ.

Is that for real? Am I understanding that properly?

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't want to misunderstand you 3ball, but it really reads as though you said we have to consider the player Pippen "might" have been if he didn't play with MJ.



Yep. Also, all of Worthy's accomplishments happened as a third option with the Lakers, yet he can be measured separately from Magic and Kareem based off him being a great college player/prospect coming into the league. We know he would be great no matter what, because...well...just take 3ball's word for it.

Pippen had all of his major accomplishments next to MJ, but we can't measure him as anything but a creation of MJ, instead we have to imagine a fictitious version of Pippen that never played with MJ. There is absolutely NO WAY this no-talent 5th overall pick from a small school, who scouts saw enough potential in to select over players from big-name schools, would even know how to tie his fcuking sneakers in the NBA if not for MJ. I think after one season, without MJ Pippen would have wound up a ballboy, or maybe selling peanuts in the stands. Trust me, 3ball knows better than us. We focus on results, and the reality of the matter, and all that shit.

[3ball]

without MJ Pippen would have wound up a ballboy, or maybe selling peanuts in the stands. Trust me, 3ball knows better than us. We focus on results, and the reality of the matter, and all that shit.


All your exaggeration aside, the point remains - even though Pippen DID need a ton of improvement when he first came in the league, you guys only consider the MJ-developed Pippen, which is not considering all scenarios and therefore being results-oriented.

The reality is that Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.

[Dragonyeuw]

All your exaggeration aside, the point remains - Pippen DID need a ton of improvement when he first came in the league - but you guys are only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, which is not considering all scenarios and therefore being results-oriented.

The reality is that Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.


Speaking of reality...

Scorer:A wash, Worthy better in big game scenarios only real edge. Pippen better shooter, slasher, equal post player, better creator on the break.
Defender: Pippen by a huge margin
Rebounder: Pippen
Passer/Playmaker: Pippen by a huge margin

Verdict: Pippen

[kshutts1]

I don't want to misunderstand you 3ball, but it really reads as though you said we have to consider the player Pippen "might" have been if he didn't play with MJ.

Is that for real? Am I understanding that properly?
3ball, please respond to this. I'm curious as to how you're looking at this. I want to understand your side.

[3ball]

3ball, please respond to this. I want to understand your side.



My posts have been pretty clear:


Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - this is a fact - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.

[Dragonyeuw]

3ball, please respond to this. I'm curious as to how you're looking at this. I want to understand your side.

Notice that he can't comment on the substance of their games. There is no argument who's the better passer, rebounder, defender, and even scoring isn't a definite edge for Worthy. So he has to cloud the issue with BS about results-oriented, Worthy being better out of college, MJ-developed and all this other dumb shit to distract from the reality that Pippen is simply the better player, no matter how he arrived at that point. 3ball wants you to believe that all this extra shit matters in the end.....it really doesn't.

[kshutts1]

Well then, barring an explanation that makes my understanding of your "theory" change, I'm left with no choice but to consider you legitimately insane.

Either that, or your mother was Yvette DeLeone.

[Dragonyeuw]

Well then, barring an explanation that makes my understanding of your "theory" change, I'm left with no choice but to consider you legitimately insane.



That,sir, is a results-oriented opinion that hasn't considered all possible scenarios.

[97 bulls]

My posts have been pretty clear:


Pippen required a ton of improvement when he first came in the league and therefore needed to land on a bad team to get any playing time - this is a fact - for example, his 7.9 ppg would never have gotten playing time on the stacked, 1988 champion Lakers, so his learning curve would've been delayed at best alongside Magic.

Pippen's undeveloped game and resulting need to land in the right situation made him more of a gamble compared to Worthy, who was already good and didn't need to improve - so if we're being realistic and considering what would happen if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.

As it stands, even if we're being results-oriented and only considering the MJ-developed Pippen, it's still a tossup between Worthy and Pippen - the closeness of the existing comparison makes possible the reality that Worthy is better when we consider all scenarios.
Do you feel the only way Pippen could've been great is to have played with Jordan?

[Dragonyeuw]

Do you feel the only way Pippen could've been great is to have played with Jordan?

That's quite clearly what he has been saying all along. There was no way Pippen could have developed into a great player on his own, or with another great player(s) or coach. It's all about MJ.

[TheCorporation]

When Jordan left the Bulls Pippen only won 2 less games.

Pippen > Worthy

[bizil]

I think Pippen would have been a great player on ANY TEAM! He was too skilled and too revolutionary a player not to be great. Could he be the best player on a title team. I think he could IF the team was constructed the right way. Some guys COULD NEVER be the best player on a title team. I happen to think Worthy is one of those guys.

The best player on a title team needs to be a great scorer, a great all around player, or both. Pippen was a great all around player who could also get u 22 points a night. Worthy WASN'T a great scorer OR a great all around player. He was very good in both aspects.

When Kareem was still in his prime, the jury was still out on Worthy as a great scorer. But once Kareem was out his prime, WE COULD REALLY SEE that Worthy wasn't a great alpha dog kind of scorer.

He had his moments for sure. But he was on the 2nd-3rd tier in terms of being a great scorer. The sad part is Worthy had the scoring skillset to be a dominant scorer. He just wasn't as consistent as guys like Bird, Dr. J, King, English, and Nique in that era.

[LAZERUSS]

I think Pippen would have been a great player on ANY TEAM! He was too skilled and too revolutionary a player not to be great. Could he be the best player on a title team. I think he could IF the team was constructed the right way. Some guys COULD NEVER be the best player on a title team. I happen to think Worthy is one of those guys.

The best player on a title team needs to be a great scorer, a great all around player, or both. Pippen was a great all around player who could also get u 22 points a night. Worthy WASN'T a great scorer OR a great all around player. He was very good in both aspects.

When Kareem was still in his prime, the jury was still out on Worthy as a great scorer. But once Kareem was out his prime, WE COULD REALLY SEE that Worthy wasn't a great alpha dog kind of scorer.

He had his moments for sure. But he was on the 2nd-3rd tier in terms of being a great scorer. The sad part is Worthy had the scoring skillset to be a dominant scorer. He just wasn't as consistent as guys like Bird, Dr. J, King, English, and Nique in that era.

Damn...you are making this forum look too intelligent.

:cheers:

[DonDadda59]

When Jordan left the Bulls Pippen only won 2 less games.


And only won 1 playoff round after winning 3 straight championships.

Worthy won finals MVP with Kareem, Magic, Isiah playing in that series. When Kareem left, the Lakers with Worthy as the #1/1B option won 6 more games. Then the next season they were back in the finals with Big Game James as the clear #1 offensive option.

So winning a first round series as your argument is weak as f*ck. :lol

[Kvnzhangyay]

And only won 1 playoff round after winning 3 straight championships.

Worthy won finals MVP with Kareem, Magic, Isiah playing in that series. When Kareem left, the Lakers with Worthy as the #1/1B option won 6 more games. Then the next season they were back in the finals with Big Game James as the clear #1 offensive option.

So winning a first round series as your argument is weak as f*ck. :lol

But even with MJ in 95 they still lost to Orlando :biggums:

I believe Rodman was key to the second threepeat, despite how 3ball makes Rodman seem worse than Kendrick Perkins :roll:

[DonDadda59]

But even with MJ in 95 they still lost to Orlando :biggums:

And this is relevant to this thread because... :confusedshrug:

Jordan only played 17 games that season and was clearly rusty as hell. The Bulls had been struggling to stay at or above .500 all season.


I believe Rodman was key to the second threepeat, despite how 3ball makes Rodman seem worse than Kendrick Perkins :roll:

Dennis was most definitely not the 'key' to the 3-peat, not any more than Horace Grant was to the first.

[97 bulls]

And only won 1 playoff round after winning 3 straight championships.

Worthy won finals MVP with Kareem, Magic, Isiah playing in that series. When Kareem left, the Lakers with Worthy as the #1/1B option won 6 more games. Then the next season they were back in the finals with Big Game James as the clear #1 offensive option.

So winning a first round series as your argument is weak as f*ck. :lol
Too much is made of the Bulls 94 season in an effort to discredit Jordan. Adding Jordan to the 94 Bulls is basically the 96 Bulls. So adding 18 games which translates to a record setting season and a Championship is a huge jump.


Saying that, Kareem was an old man in 88. Losers dont win Finals MVPs. So it wws basically Magic.

[97 bulls]

I think Pippen would have been a great player on ANY TEAM! He was too skilled and too revolutionary a player not to be great. Could he be the best player on a title team. I think he could IF the team was constructed the right way. Some guys COULD NEVER be the best player on a title team. I happen to think Worthy is one of those guys.

The best player on a title team needs to be a great scorer, a great all around player, or both. Pippen was a great all around player who could also get u 22 points a night. Worthy WASN'T a great scorer OR a great all around player. He was very good in both aspects.

When Kareem was still in his prime, the jury was still out on Worthy as a great scorer. But once Kareem was out his prime, WE COULD REALLY SEE that Worthy wasn't a great alpha dog kind of scorer.

He had his moments for sure. But he was on the 2nd-3rd tier in terms of being a great scorer. The sad part is Worthy had the scoring skillset to be a dominant scorer. He just wasn't as consistent as guys like Bird, Dr. J, King, English, and Nique in that era.
Great post Biz.

[DonDadda59]

Too much is made of the Bulls 94 season in an effort to discredit Jordan.

Exactly. Plenty of teams have won first round series but people here act like it was some miraculous act to accomplish that after winning 3 straight championships. :lol



Saying that, Kareem was an old man in 88. Losers dont win Finals MVPs. So it wws basically Magic.

Jerry West won finals MVP on the losing team and the '88 series was a razor thin 7 game outcome. If someone on the Pistons had a monster series, it wouldn't have been inconceivable for them to win the award. And even if it was 'basically Magic'... Worthy still won finals MVP over him, something Pip never did in 6 trips to the finals with Jordan.