how impressive was mj as a point guard?

[diamenz]

mike could have been the best point guard, ever.

I know most of you are automatically thinking this guy must be another Jordan homer that believes everything MJ touches is gold and everything from the 90s or earlier is better than anything now. You might be somewhat right there but let

[warriorfan]

Imagine if he dominated the ball in today's no hand-check era...his stats would be unbelievable.

[Asukal]

How good? Better than lebron for sure. GOAT! :applause: :bowdown:

[Rocketswin2013]

How good? Better than lebron for sure. GOAT! :applause: :bowdown:
:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.

[Marchesk]

What were Wilt's stats as PG?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Wilt_Chamberlain3.jpg/810px-Wilt_Chamberlain3.jpg

[Hey Yo]

:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.


http://citybugs.tamu.edu/files/2010/07/field-cricket.jpg


crickets

[kennethgriffin]

scottie pippen ran PG for chicago

he lead the bulls in assists per game every season the bulls won the title

mike rarely ever brought the ball up the floor. he rarely ever spent time at the top of the key/beyond the 3pt line.

that was pippen. he was the kick out shooter along with kerr

jordan was on the block. he was the shaq/post player in the bulls triangle


his assists never came from running a pick and roll or setting up others initially. they were nearly all due to him being doubled and kicking it out to someone or hitting a cutter



jordan didnt have the handles nore the outside shot to be a PG. he was too selfish to play PG.




OP.. lay off the drugs

[3ball]

[B]scottie pippen ran PG for chicago

he lead the bulls in assists per game every season the bulls won the title


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


This proves MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of plays, while also scoring a whopping 75% more than Pippen..
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


This proves MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of plays, while also scoring a whopping 75% more than Pippen..
.

And this helps prove the fact that the ball handler is NOT a PG, as in PG is not defined by just via mere possession time

[Megabox!]

:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.
Bodied that clown

[Megabox!]

Lol @ best point guard ever, you Jordan stans are filth

[Cali Syndicate]

scottie pippen ran PG for chicago

he lead the bulls in assists per game every season the bulls won the title

mike rarely ever brought the ball up the floor. he rarely ever spent time at the top of the key/beyond the 3pt line.

that was pippen. he was the kick out shooter along with kerr

jordan was on the block. he was the shaq/post player in the bulls triangle


his assists never came from running a pick and roll or setting up others initially. they were nearly all due to him being doubled and kicking it out to someone or hitting a cutter



jordan didnt have the handles nore the outside shot to be a PG. he was too selfish to play PG.




OP.. lay off the drugs

Collins ran the triangle in 89?

[Trollsmasher]

it's a well known fact that MJ was stat padding hard these days

he wouldn't pass if it wasn't a clear assist given to him and often had to be bailed out late in the shotclock

that's why their record was so shit, MJ got his stats as always, but the overall offense was bad

[sdot_thadon]

And this helps prove the fact that the ball handler is NOT a PG, as in PG is not defined by just via mere possession time
:applause: :applause: :applause:


:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.

Shut down.

[Blue&Orange]

:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.
i

[bizil]

MJ was AWESOME as a PG! The numbers don't lie! But some things to consider, especially back in that era:

- MJ was a SCORE FIRST PG! As a PG, the ball is always in your hands. So if you are a great passer like MJ, your dime numbers should be around the 8-9 dimes mark at least. MJ did that and even more in terms of dimes. But here's the thing, guys like Magic, Stockton, and Isiah were getting 12-14 dimes a game. The reason why is because they were pass first PG's.

They could see plays before they happened and PASSED GUYS OPEN! MJ didn't have that mentality AND wasn't as skillful passing as those guys. But MJ was STILL a better passer and floor general than 90% of PG's in the NBA. He just did it from a score first perspective.

- It's like choosing between Westbrook or Paul as your PG. Westbrook is the better player BUT CP3 is the better floor general-dime dropper. Historically, the job description of a PG is to be the floor general and drop dimes first. If u are an alpha dog scorer on top of it, even better.

Guys like Westbrook and MJ are just SO TALENTED that they can play different positions. But in terms of an ACTUAL FLOOR GENERAL-DIME DROPPER, the guys like Stockton, Magic, Kidd, Isiah, and Big O are superior. But in today's game, the score first kind of PG is becoming the norm.

[tmacattack33]

:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.

:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Really impressive. He did this with limited help on the offensive end.

Pippen and Ho Grant were developing into their own, green as hell, and Mike still registered 30 and 40 point triple-doubles on call. His volume in scoring is what made him such a great playmaker. No over-dribbling and cringe, over-the-top passes, just finding the open man from reading defenses (not to say someone like MJ, who had a flair for the dramatic, didn't put some extra spin into his passes :oldlol:). Textbook playmaking though.

One of my favorite games during his peak was a home game against the Bullets... Mike had ~58 points and tons of assists. You go back and watch that performance, though, and I'm not sure he had one possession where he made a mistake. A few misses from the field, but good looking shots. Nothing was forced, and while his efficiency was great, everything looked effortless.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Qfs5rKKYo

He actually had 1 turnover, but with that stat-line...a damn near perfect game.


Can wait for moment when longevity became the most important thing in the game of basketball.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.


The fact that Jordan's stats were equal or greater than Lebron's, yet they resulted in a worse team record can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

You guys claim the Cavs' 19 more wins is not due to a better supporting cast, but instead weaker competition in the 2009 eastern conference.. However, if the 2009 eastern conference was that much weaker, then think how much more impressive MJ's 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages were in 1989, than Lebron's nearly identical 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl in 2009.. So by saying the 19 games was due ONLY to weaker competition, you invalidate Lebron's stats compared to MJ..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

[Trollsmasher]

The fact that Jordan's stats were equal or greater than Lebron's, yet they resulted in a worse team record can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

You guys claim the Cavs' 19 more wins is not due to a better supporting cast, but instead weaker competition in the 2009 eastern conference.. However, if the 2009 eastern conference was that much weaker, then think how much more impressive MJ's 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages were in 1989, than Lebron's nearly identical 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl in 2009.. So by saying the 19 games was due ONLY to weaker competition, you invalidate Lebron's stats compared to MJ..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.
boxscore watching

eye test proves you wrong, son

[Jailblazers7]

Lol if Jordan had to play PG the only person he would pass to after game 20 is his own ego.

[3ball]

Lol if Jordan had to play PG the only person he would pass to after game 20 is his own ego.
MJ got 14 triple-doubles that season - I believe all of them during his PG stretch - and only 4 shy of the Magic's modern record of 18 in a season..

If MJ had played PG all season instead of just 24 games, he would've shattered Magic's record, maybe doubled it - he would've had some Oscar-type 35 triple doubles or some shit.... No one today would come close.

But of course, MJ wasn't a PG, because that's not what was going to make the best team in the end.

[andgar923]

Another thing to consider is assists rules were different back then. What constituted as an assist back then is different than today.

Today's assists are easier to get, based on the rule interpretation.

[Trollsmasher]

Another thing to consider is assists rules were different back then. What constituted as an assist back then is different than today.

Today's assists are easier to get, based on the rule interpretation.
not really, back in the '80s statkeeping was much less precise

MJ especially was getting a Gretzky-esque homecooking (even on the road in fact) from the stat-keepers

[Rocketswin2013]

The fact that Jordan's stats were equal or greater than Lebron's, yet they resulted in a worse team record can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

You guys claim the Cavs' 19 more wins is not due to a better supporting cast, but instead weaker competition in the 2009 eastern conference.. However, if the 2009 eastern conference was that much weaker, then think how much more impressive MJ's 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages were in 1989, than Lebron's nearly identical 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl in 2009.. So by saying the 19 games was due ONLY to weaker competition, you invalidate Lebron's stats compared to MJ..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.
You are a stupid person.

[Nash]

The fact that Jordan's stats were equal or greater than Lebron's, yet they resulted in a worse team record can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

You guys claim the Cavs' 19 more wins is not due to a better supporting cast, but instead weaker competition in the 2009 eastern conference.. However, if the 2009 eastern conference was that much weaker, then think how much more impressive MJ's 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages were in 1989, than Lebron's nearly identical 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl in 2009.. So by saying the 19 games was due ONLY to weaker competition, you invalidate Lebron's stats compared to MJ..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.
how would this team do?

Mo Williams
Michael Jordan
Anthony Parker
Antawn Jamison
38 year old Shaq

6/6 rings?

[Asukal]

:oldlol:

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.


Lebron as a point guard*in 2010-*30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg,*10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

That '89 regular season was a joke and nothing but a highly inflated empty stats season.

Are you stupid? That weak east era lebron plays in is nothing compared to the strong east era Jordan faced in his days. Stay mad choker stan! :lol :roll:

6/6 da GOAT >>>>>>> 2/6 chokefest :whatever:

[sportjames23]

Lol if Jordan had to play PG the only person he would pass to after game 20 is his own ego.


We can tell your dumbass was born after 1999.

[3ball]

6/6 and MJ said he always wondered what would've happened in 1999.

[3ball]

Are you stupid? That weak east era lebron plays in is nothing compared to the strong east era Jordan faced in his days. Stay mad choker stan! :lol :roll:

6/6 da GOAT >>>>>>> 2/6 chokefest :whatever:
:oldlol:

[3ball]

how would this team do?

Mo Williams
Michael Jordan
Anthony Parker
Antawn Jamison
38 year old Shaq

6/6 rings?
I only compared the 2009 and 2010 Cavs to the 1989 Bulls and said the 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team - the 2009 Cavs' won 19 more games than the 1989 Bulls despite Lebron's worse stats, which proves they had a superior supporting cast and played weaker competition.

If you prefer attribute all 19 wins to the Cavs facing worse competition, then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

[andgar923]

not really, back in the '80s statkeeping was much less precise

MJ especially was getting a Gretzky-esque homecooking (even on the road in fact) from the stat-keepers
stat keeping is a joke more in today's stat obsessed era.

but what i was referring to, was the actual rules.

the rules changed to inflate stats. what is considred an assist today wasnt back then.

[Young X]

Better PG than the "PG's" playing now.

[Hey Yo]

Are you stupid? That weak east era lebron plays in is nothing compared to the strong east era Jordan faced in his days. Stay mad choker stan! :lol :roll:

6/6 da GOAT >>>>>>> 2/6 chokefest :whatever:
MJ never faced Zone Defenses in the so-called "strong era"

April 1st, 2001:

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

[3ball]

MJ never faced Zone Defenses in the so-called "strong era"

April 1st, 2001:

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba


MJ said that in April 2001, as your article shows, which was before the new rules were introduced in 2005, which included the defensive 3 seconds rule along with the bans on hand-checking and various physicality - after these rules were instituted, Jordan said he could score 100 under these new rules..


"Based on these rules.. I could have scored 100 points."

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/


It says right on the NBA's website that the defensive 3 seconds rule was meant to "open up the game"... According to the NBA, the absence of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would allow "frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.".. This quote is in the 2nd last question in the article below - these are the rules that MJ was unaware of when he made your comments, but once he was aware of them, he said he'd score 100:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
.

[3ball]

What if MJ had to face an actual zone defense


MJ was POY in college over bigs like Hakeem, Ewing and others where a TRUE ZONE was allowed.

Otoh, today's game is nowhere near a true zone because zone defense is not allowed inside the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area, defenders have to remain within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man (about 3 feet) at all times.. Defenders must hug their man inside the ppaint, or vacate the paint - they can't remain in the paint without standing right next to someone.

Otoh, defenders in previous eras were allowed to stay in the paint when their man was far out of armslength - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. This condition was always occurring because of the lack of spacing.

To summarize - defenders in today's game aren't allowed to stand in the paint when there's no one else around, while previous era defenders could.


http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


Notice Speights on baseline, left of the rim - ideally, he'd be waiting under the rim the whole time to contest Lebron.. But today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).. So Speights has walk to AWAY from the rim to remain within armslength of his man, which prevents him from contesting Lebron.

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side.. So in the clip above, Speights would've been waiting under the rim to contest Lebron and force him into a tougher shot.





I think I get it - inside the paint, zone isn't allowed, because the defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping by forcing defenders to remain within armslength of their man at all times, or vacate the paint.

However, zone defense IS allowed outside the paint.


Exactly, the NBA banned paint-camping but allowed zones outside the paint.. So instead of paint-camping and contesting guards at the rim, the ban forces big men to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims.

Of course, previous eras shaded heavily in screen-roll situations too (seen below) - MJ destroyed these situations, but he had to pull-up for more jumpers, because the paint was not open after the screen roll like it is with today's spacing - in MJ's day, after the screen-roll, the paint would still be crowded because there was no spacing to draw everyone to the perimeter:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8.
.

[oarabbus]

2000 word essay but never addressed Jordan's 13-11 record vs Bran flakes' 11-0
.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

you never addressed Jordan's 13-11 record vs Bran flakes' 11-0


The fact that Jordan's equal or greater stats during that stretch in 1989 resulted in a worse record than Lebron's much shorter stretch in 2009, can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

The fact that Jordan's equal or greater stats during that stretch in 1989 resulted in a worse record than Lebron's much shorter stretch in 2009, can only mean he either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.
.

Why can't it just be that Jordan's playstyle as him as a PG was just not very effective, in terms of winning?

It is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better. In this, the supporting cast was more or less the same. As such, this PROVES that the difference in results was simply because of the difference in impacts of Lebron and Jordan

[3ball]

Why can't it just be that Jordan's playstyle as him as a PG was just not very effective, in terms of winning?


This isn't something anyone can prove - we can only look at the raw production and do the math.. 10 triple doubles in 11 games is hard to argue.. That alone destroys Lebron's little 12 game stretch..





It is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better. In this, the supporting cast was more or less the same. As such, this PROVES that the difference in results was simply because of the difference in impacts of Lebron and Jordan


No it doesn't - if the supporting casts are equal, then the difference in records is due to MJ facing tougher competition.. And if his competition was that much tougher, then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast WAS better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

The superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

This isn't something anyone can prove - we can only look at the raw production and do the math.



No it doesn't - if the supporting casts are equal, then the difference in records is due to MJ facing tougher competition.. And if his competition was that much tougher, then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast WAS better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

This is proven false, as It is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better. In this, the supporting cast was more or less the same. As such, this PROVES that the difference in results was simply because of the difference in impacts of Lebron and Jordan

[And1AllDay]

The current league has multiple good shooters, that's why defenses wouldn't "pack the paint" anyway.

Jordan shot .189% from 3P in his first year with the Wizards.
Players now-a-days can shoot, who is going to clog the paint? A lot of teams want a stretch power forward. Most PF that can shoot are lethal.

[Young X]

Why can't it just be that Jordan's playstyle as him as a PG was just not very effective, in terms of winning?

It is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better. In this, the supporting cast was more or less the same. As such, this PROVES that the difference in results was simply because of the difference in impacts of Lebron and JordanExcept the Bulls offense was actually slightly better when MJ was PG. Their record got worse because of defense and injuries (same injuries that forced MJ to be the PG). And no way were their supporting casts similar, MJ's team was terrible while Bron still had solid, above average players.

[3ball]

:facepalm
.

[3ball]

Keep in mind that MJ was going from off-ball to PG...

Whereas the NBA's player-tracking data shows that Lebron already dominates the ball more than starting PG's when he plays SF, so when he moved to PG, team's adjustment wasn't nearly as great, so this helped their record too.

[3ball]

This is proven false, as It is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better. In this, the supporting cast was more or less the same. As such, this PROVES that the difference in results was simply because of the difference in impacts of Lebron and Jordan

Average wins of opponents during MJ's 24 game stretch and Lebron's 12 game stretch


Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
45 win average




Lakers: 57
OKC: 50
Miami: 47
MIN: 15
IND: 32
LAC: 29
MEM: 40
MIA: 47
NYK: 29
New Jersey: 12
Orlando: 59
____________
34 win average


The 45 win average of MJ's opponents during his PG stretch was higher than the average wins of his opponents the rest of the year (40), which explains why the Bulls record was slightly worse during MJ's PG stretch than the rest of the year.

Of course, MJ's opponents had a big advantage over Lebron's - 45 win average to 34 - but even without this advantage, we already knew the 1989 eastern conference was far tougher than in 2009 and 2010.. MJ's tougher competition enhances the viability of his playoff stats - Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing inferior competition.

But MJ's tougher road wasn't only due to superior competition - it's already been established that his 33/8/8 only resulted in a 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 resulted in 66 wins in 2009 - these 19 more wins weren't only due to the inferior competition outlined previously.. Lebron's supporting cast was better too, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Average wins of opponents during MJ's 24 game stretch and Lebron's 12 game stretch


Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
45 win average




Lakers: 57
OKC: 50
Miami: 47
MIN: 15
IND: 32
LAC: 29
MEM: 40
MIA: 47
NYK: 29
New Jersey: 12
Orlando: 59
____________
34 win average


It's common knowledge that the 1989 Eastern Conference was much tougher than the 2009 or 2010, but here's the data anyway (above) proving that MJ faced the tougher stretch of competition

So considering MJ's competition was much tougher, then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast WAS better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.

So what you're telling me is that MJ playing PG is a very ineffective, and can only win versus weak teams. Such a style can win vs bad teams, but is easily exposed by good teams, as shown by the 45 win average.

[ImKobe]

Jordan averaged 31 ppg 11 apg IN THE FINALS to win his first title going up against Magic...

could have easily had tons of seasons averaging 30+ ppg 8+ apg if he never had Pippen and ran a different system, but averaging 11 apg in the finals playing the damn triangle is the most impressive thing I've seen out of a SG in terms of playmaking. Yes, even more impressive than Kobe.

[Asukal]

MJ never faced Zone Defenses in the so-called "strong era"

April 1st, 2001:

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

Neither did lebron. They can't play a real zone defense in the NBA, the 3 seconds defensive rule makes it impossible to do so. Besides, already pointed out so many times zone defense is easily beat by spreading the floor, good ball movement and shooting. You really think Jordan would struggle hitting shots from mid range or making passes inside to the open guy? If zone defense is your argument against the GOAT, it clearly shows your lack of knowledge of the game. :no:

EDIT: They don't even really use it in the NBA, show me a team who utilizes zone D most of the time. :whatever:

[Poochymama]

He was good, but not as good as he was a sg. He just looks better after the fact cause he stat padded as a point guard.

[ralph_i_el]

Average wins of opponents during MJ's 24 game stretch and Lebron's 12 game stretch


Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
45 win average




Lakers: 57
OKC: 50
Miami: 47
MIN: 15
IND: 32
LAC: 29
MEM: 40
MIA: 47
NYK: 29
New Jersey: 12
Orlando: 59
____________
34 win average


The 45 win average of MJ's opponents during his PG stretch was higher than the average wins of his opponents the rest of the year (40), which explains why the Bulls record was slightly worse during MJ's PG stretch than the rest of the year.

Of course, MJ's opponents had a big advantage over Lebron's - 45 win average to 34 - but even without this advantage, we already knew the 1989 eastern conference was far tougher than in 2009 and 2010.. MJ's tougher competition enhances the viability of his playoff stats - Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing inferior competition.

Otoh, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast WAS better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.
.

Part of that gap can be explained by the 11 loses MJ had...

[3ball]

MJ's worse record is NOT a result of the supporting cast, as the record of Jordan as PG is worse than the rest of the season, while Lebron's is better.



This is because the Bulls' opponents during MJ's stretch at point guard averaged 45 wins, which is more than the remaining Bulls opponents the rest of the season (40 wins, and the league average for wins was 41) - this explains why the Bulls had a slightly worse record during the games MJ played PG, than they did the rest of the year.

The 45-win average of the Bulls' opponents was also much higher than the 34-win average of Lebron's opponents during his stretch at point guard.

But even without the 45 to 34-win advantage of MJ's opponents, we already knew the 1989 eastern conference was far tougher than in 2009 and 2010.. The tougher competition enhances the viability of his playoff stats - Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing inferior competition.

But MJ's tougher road wasn't only due to superior competition - it's already been established that his 33/8/8 only resulted in a 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 resulted in 66 wins in 2009 - these 19 more wins weren't only due to the inferior competition outlined previously.. Lebron's supporting cast was better too, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.

[Kvnzhangyay]

This is because the Bulls' opponents during MJ's stretch at point guard averaged 45 wins, which is more than the remaining Bulls opponents the rest of the season (40 wins, and the league average for wins was 41) - this explains why the Bulls had a slightly worse record during the games MJ played PG, than they did the rest of the year.

The 45-win average of the Bulls' opponents was also much higher than the 34-win average of Lebron's opponents during his stretch at point guard.

But even without the 45 to 34-win advantage of MJ's opponents, we already knew the 1989 eastern conference was far tougher than in 2009 and 2010.. The tougher competition enhances the viability of his playoff stats - Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing inferior competition.

But MJ's tougher road wasn't only due to superior competition - it's already been established that his 33/8/8 only resulted in a 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 resulted in 66 wins in 2009 - these 19 more wins weren't only due to the inferior competition outlined previously.. Lebron's supporting cast was better too, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.

So that means that MJ as point guard was an ineffective style of play, as he was unable to beat teams that were even semi-decent. His style was only able to beat bad teams; he could not beat good teams. And it's not even like 45 wins is competitive :lol

That's like fringe playoff spot

Meanwhile, you cannot criticize Lebron for the competition, as he faced what he had, and performed to expectations by beating all of them, as he should.

[3ball]

Meanwhile, you cannot criticize Lebron for the competition, as he faced what he had, and performed to expectations by beating all of them, as he should.


This is the exact opposite of the truth - the Cavs were the #1 seed in 2009 and 2010 and the favorite to make the Finals, but they were upset both years in 2nd Round and conf finals.

So you're wrong - Lebron did NOT "perform to expectations by beating all of them".... Your statement is factually incorrect.. He lost both years as the favorite.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

This is the exact opposite of the truth - the Cavs were the #1 seed in 2009 and 2010 and the favorite to make the Finals, but they were upset both years in 2nd Round and conf finals.

So you're wrong - Lebron did NOT "perform to expectations by beating all of them".... Your statement is factually incorrect.

But he did AS POINT GUARD during the stretch. What happened in the playoffs is moot because we are talking about point guard stretches. Your playoffs argument is not topical

Meanwhile, Jordan performed below expectations

[3ball]

So that means he was unable to beat teams that were even semi-decent. His style was only able to beat bad teams; he could not beat good teams.


He went 13-11 against better teams than he faced the rest of the year (45-win teams, as opposed to 40-win teams).

You lost this argument bud.





But he did AS POINT GUARD during the stretch. What happened in the playoffs is moot because we are talking about point guard stretches. Your playoffs argument is not topical


Lebron faced 34-win teams during his stretch at point guard - lottery teams - this is far below what he faced the rest of the year.

Lebron went 11-0 against lottery teams, then underperformed in the playoffs two years in a row against worse competition with a better supporting cast.

[Kvnzhangyay]

He went 13-11 against better teams than he faced the rest of the year (45-win teams, as opposed to 40-win teams).

You lost this argument bud.



Lebron faced 34-win teams during his stretch at point guard - lottery teams - this is far below what he faced the rest of the year.

Lebron went 11-0 against lottery teams, then underperformed in the playoffs two years in a row against worse competition with a better supporting cast.

How did I lose when I won? 13-11 is FAR below expectations, and clearly shows that Jordan's style of play was ineffective. If you argue 13-11 IS matching expectations, or exceeding it, then you simply are destroying yourself by indicating that expectations of Jordan were low because he was unable to win.

No matter which way you see it, Jordan CLEARLY showed that his style of play was ineffective against GOOD teams, which is why he barely went above .500 versus teams that were decent, as in fringe playoff teams, as the PG.

[3ball]

13-11 is FAR below expectations


MJ's winning percentage as a point guard was 0.540 (13-11), compared to 0.570 for the 1989 season as a whole (47-35).

So he didn't underperform - his winning percentage was essentially the same, which means he over-performed considering the opponents he played during the PG stretch were BETTER (45 win average) than the teams he played the rest of the year (40 win average).

So again, you're wrong when you say he was "far below expectations".. I ethered you on this... Just accept it and move on.