LAZERUSS is still the TRUE KING OF ESSAYS

[J Shuttlesworth]

Just a few posts from his recent Wilt help thread:


Serious answer...

TEAM GAME.

How come a pre-Pippen MJ had a losing record, and a 1-9 playoff record? And in his greatest scoring season, his team was swept the first round in a series in which he shot .417 from the field?

How come a pre-Magic Kareem, in his first ten seasons, only went to to two Finals, and only won one ring (and was outplayed by a 34 year-old Wilt who was a year removed from major knee surgery)?

How come Bird lost seven times with HCA?

How come Shaq was swept six times in the post-season?

How come Hakeem was brutalized in the first round in eight of his 15 playoff seasons (and most were blowouts)?


Wilt gets ripped for his TEAM losing to Russell's teams seven times, and losing to a 66-16 Kareem-led team, and to a Reed-led Knicks (and their 4-6 HOFers) twice.

How about Shaq's playoff record against Ostertag of 1-8 in their two series H2H's?

And how come MJ had a 1-3 record against Dumars?

Kareem was losing to the likes of Webster (in the first round), and Sikma (1-4 record in that series), as well as losing to Thurmond (in the first round), Cowens (getting creamed by the red-head in a game seven blowout loss on his home floor no less.) And the real truth...when he faced Moses, he was not only badly outplayed in both series, he led his 54-28 team down the toilet against Malone's 40-42 Rockets, and then when he faced a Moses with equal talent, he was not only slaughtered by Moses, he led his Lakers to a sweeping loss.

Bird? Bad enough having a losing record against Dr. J, but how about a sweeping playoff series loss to Junior Bridgeman? And not only losing to Adrian Dantley, but being held to a .351 FG% in that series, as well. Ad he had a losing record against Michale Cooper, too.

Hakeem? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Not only putting up pure crap numbers in a typical first round loss to Eaton (who also shut down Sampson), or losing to HOFer Parish; but how about losing to the likes of Alton Lister, Mychal Thompson, Oliver Miller, and a slew of no-names that would beat his ass in the first round. Hell, in his '94 title run, he didn't face a legitimate starting center until the Finals.

TEAM GAME.

None other than John Wooden said it best...had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

And neither Tom Gola, nor Guy Rodgers should be in the HOF, either. Nor did Wilt play with a HOF Thurmond, either (for one full season, and when Thurmond was a rookie, playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 from the field. Hell, Chamberlain was stuck with those two in the '64 Finals, and Thurmond shot .326 from the field, while Rodgers shot his usual .258.

How about Gola in his three post-seasons with Wilt? He shot .412, .271, and even .206. Which was about what he shot without Wilt in his post-season career.

And Baylor? Chamberlain played exactly ONE FULL season with Baylor, and in that post-season, Baylor blew chunks all over the floor.

West? The two played together for five seasons, but only three full time seasons. Overall, West had one great post-season, another very good one (but alas, in a game seven, he was humiliated by Frazier), one below average one, and one awful one. Oh, and he completely missed yet another one.

Still, most every player that Chamberlain played with, had their best seasons alongside Wilt. Players like Goodrich, Greer, Gola (yes, as bad as he was with Wilt, it was still his best season), Hairston, McMillian, Meschery, and others. And amazingly, when Wilt joined the Warriors, Paul Arizin's numbers only declined slightly, despite Chamberlain taking as many as 40 FGAs per game in a season.


As for Russell's squads. Massive edge in talent for most of their ten years in the league together, and no worse than equal talent in two (and Wilt's '68 team was wiped out by injuries, or they would surely have repeated their annihilation of the '67 Celtics.)

Auerbach was always ADDING talent to Russell's teams. In Russell's rookie season, he not only joined with Cousy and Sharman, but he also had the ROY in Heinsohn. The next year they added Sam Jones. By the '62-63 season, they were fielding NINE HOFers, with Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the previous season, being their EIGHTH best player.

In the mid-60's they added bailey Howell, who was a 20+ ppg scorer before Russell, and a 20 ppg scorer with Russell.

And not only did they ALWAYS have HOF-laden teams, but they were always the deepest teams in the league. Furthermore, Russell played alongside those guys from between five to twelve seasons.

Even Russell, himself, admitted that Sam Jones saved the Celtic season, SIX times with crucial game-winning shots. And Havlicek was a 20 ppg scorer, who exploded to a near 30 ppg scorer after Russell.

Without being surrounded by players who were capable of MULTIPLE 20+ ppg seasons, Russell's defense would have been an exercise in futility

You didn't answer MY questions.

How come MJ went 1-9 in his first three playoff series, and was swept in his highest scoring season in the first round, and in a series in which he shot .417 from the field, and 9-30 in the clinching game three defeat.

How come MJ couldn't win a game against the 67-15 Celtics? And if you say it was because he was under-manned...well, welcome to Wilt's entire post-season career.

As for Russell. He played with between 4-8 HOFers EVERY season in his career. And even he admitted that Wilt could his job (Russell's) better than Russell could do Wilt's. The reality was, Chamberlain was nearly Russell's equal defensively, and from the mid-60's on, he was at least his equal (actually Chamberlain was more dominant defensively from '67 thru '69.)

BTW, Wilt reduced Russell's FG%'s FAR more than Russell reduced Chamberlain's (in fact, it was almost a negligible difference in their post-season H2H's from Wilt's regular season FG% in that same span.)

Wilt badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in their career H2H's. It was a one-sided beat-down. And again, when Chamberlain had a roster that was the equal of Russell, and healthy, with a quality coach, it was a blowout of the 60-21 and eight-time defending champs, in a series that Wilt just overwhelmed Russell in EVERY facet of the game. As a side-note on that series...remove Wilt and Russell, and the two teams scored almost exactly the same amount of points. Add in the difference between Wilt and Russell, and it was an epic blowout.

Again...I can find FAR more post-season "flop" jobs from guys like Bird and Kareem. And EVERY "GOAT" had their fair share of them.

And aside from '69, in a series in which Wilt STILL outplayed Russell, and then crushed him in game seven...give me your list of the "several choke" jobs that Wilt had in his post-season career. And I also want to know not only Wilt's ENTIRE stat-line in those series, but his opposing center's numbers, as well.

Oh, and keep in mind that Wilt played the entire '68 EDF's with a similar injury that rendered Reed a statute in the last three games of the '70 Finals. Oh, and in that series, Wilt played the entire series on a leg that had major knee surgery just four months before.

Let me give you an example of Wilt's durability. Kareem broke his hand twice in his career, and missed 16 and 21 games each time. Chamberlain broke his hand just before game five of the '72 Finals, and then proceeded to put up one of the GOAT clinching finals' performances of all-time, with a 24-29-8 (10-14 FG/FGA) game in which he nearly outrebounded the entire Knick team by himself.

And I have already given you Wilt's "must-win" and potential "series clinching" games, and he has a solid case as the most CLUTCH performer in playoff history. And BTW, he reduced a peak Kareem to a .383 FG% shooter in their two series clinching H2H games (outshooting him .545 to .383...18-33 to 23-60.)

Next..

[J Shuttlesworth]

The problem in his '69 season was his COACH. Hell, watch the 4th quarter of game seven. Russell picked up his 5th personal foul, and LA immediately went into Wilt, who went right around the matador defense of Russell (geez that guy used to quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.) That was the last time Wilt touched the ball on the offensive end...and with 10 minutes left.

Interesting, too, that the REASON why VBK was essentially fired immediately after that game seven, was BECAUSE of his MISUSE of Chamberlain. And when the Lakers brought in their new coach in '70, Joe Mullaney...his first order of business was to build the offense around WILT. And we saw the results. 32.2 ppg, 20.6 rpg, and on a .579 FG% (BTW, West was STILL scoring 30.8 ppg in that same span.) Chamberlain was even more dominant against Dierking in THAT season (and FAR more dominant in previous seasons, including the '69 season), than Kareem would ever be against Dierking.

Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee in that ninth game, and basically, was never the same again.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2202&dat=19691108&id=Q05AAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tfIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1702,5098849&hl=en

Read that article. It says that Kerlan claimed that that injury was nearly identical to the one that Baylor had suffered a few years prior. It occurred in game one of the '65 playoffs, on April 3rd. He played his first game on October 15th in '66. A full six months after the injury. BUT, he was just a SHELL the ENTIRE season. He missed 15 games that year, and his production went from 27.1 ppg in '65, down to 16.6 ppg in '66. In fact, he would never be the same player he had been again.

So, it took Baylor essentially a YEAR-AND-A-HALF to semi fully recover from the SAME injury that Wilt "recovered" from in FOUR MONTHS (Nov 7th when he injured it, to March 18th.)

And the reality was, Chamberlain was NOWHERE NEAR 100%. I have said it before. WATCH game seven of the '70 Finals on YouTube, and then watch game five of the '72 Finals on YouTube. Just a STAGGERING difference. In the '70 game, he runs stiff-legged, with no elevation. In the '72 game h is sprinting down the court, chasing shooters all over the floor, and not only blocking 8 shots, he is getting called for very borderline goal-tends.

And please, don't give me this nonsense that Wilt SHOULD have done better in game seven, based on his 45-27 game in game six. Why didn't KAJ ALWAYS put up a 40 point Finals game? Hell, why couldn't he summon another "game six" in game seven of the '74 Finals, when he was outplayed by Cowens, in a blowout loss on his home floor? The one point you could make about Wilt's game six was pretty obvious, though. Had Wilt routinely played the "Todd McCullough's" of his era in the post-season, instead of HOFer-after-HOFer, he would have set scoring and efficiency records that would still stand today.

Again...the WILT DOUBLE STANDARD.

Do you think that Wilt would have missed game six of the '80 Finals with a sprained ankle, when we KNOW that he played with foot and leg injuries in the EDF's, ...all while NOTICEABLY LIMPING the entire series? Do you think he would have missed the majority of three games in the '70 Finals with an injury that he played with for every minute of the seven game '68 EDF's?

HELL NO. Not only that, as Psileas mentioned. If Wilt had played that game seven in '70, and put up the PALTRY and INSIGNIFICANT numbers that Reed did...and somehow his team won, ...instead of being a FMVP, he would have REALLY been ripped.

The WILT DOUBLE STANDARD.

BTW, CavsFTW printed a google article that I won't take the time to find right now (maybe he can dig it up), in which Wilt said that he should NOT have come back early after that surgery, and that he knew he was nowhere near 100%, but that he did it for the good of the TEAM.

Instead of being labeled heroic, like the useless statute Reed was in game seven...Wilt was considered a "failure"...in a game in which he put up 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds...in a series in which he was clearly the best player on the floor, with a 23 ppg, 24 rpg, .625 seven game Finals.

The WILT DOUBLE STANDARD.
I have never "praised" Chamberlain for his '69 Finals performance. It was, by far, the worst post-season series of his career. But I would like to think that we BOTH know that his COACH hated his guts. Plain-and-simple. The idiot had the greatest low post presence in NBA history, playing the high post. Not only that, but there were times during the season when he BENCHED Chamberlain.

And speaking of benching Wilt...the man's hatred for Chamberlain was never more evident, than keeping him on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven that his team would lose by two points. Robert Cherry made the comment that VBK's hatred of Wilt cost the city of LA their very first title, and Van Breda Kolff his career.

I saw a lot of the Lebron-Wade (Bosh) chemistry issues in that first year in LA with West-Wilt (Baylor.) Lebron was tentative because he just didn't know what his real role was in his first year in Miami. Same with Chamberlain in '69. VBK told Wilt from day one that he didn't want him clogging the low post, so that Baylor could roam the baseline. And the Finals were just a mess. I wish I could find the quote (it came from an article that PHILA had found), in wish Van Breda Kolff said something along this, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, sure he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

And again, the main reason that VBK was fired right after the '69 Finals (alright, technically he quit, since he knew the ax was about to fall), was his handling of Chamberlain. And as I alluded to earlier...Mullaney came in and immediately structured the offense around Wilt (albeit West was still getting his points.)

And while this was not a peak Wilt (he was having physical problems dating back to early '67-68), he was about to have one of the GOAT seasons in NBA history. In his first nine games, he was leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and likely FG% (32.2 ppg, 20.6 rpg, and on a .579 FG%.) And those numbers were not inflated by 1-2 big games, but rather seven excellent games in the nine he played. Games of 33. 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points...along with a 25-23-5 9-14 game against Alcindor (Kareem.) And even those numbers were lower than what he would have had had he not shred his knee in the third quarter in game nine, when he had already scored 33 points (on 13-14 shooting) in only 28 minutes. He was likely on his way to a 40+ point game (hell, probably a 50+ point game.) Had he played 48 minutes in that game, and say scored 43 points, which was very reasonable, he would have finished that game with a season average of 33.3 ppg at the time.

Think about that. A slightly declining Wilt was on his way to a 33-21-3 .579 season in '70, when he blew out his knee. Why do I bring that up? Because a peak Kareem's greatest statistical season would come two years later, at 35-17-5 .574.

Of course, what the "bashers" won't acknowledge, was his INJURY and subsequent SURGERY. Again, just WATCH the footage of game seven of the '70 Finals, and game five of the '72 Finals. Only a blind man would not see the HUGE physical difference in Wilt's play. In '70 he ran stiff-legged, with zero lift, while in '72 he was outsprinting the majority of players, and chasing Knick shooters all over the floor, with an amazing display of leaping ability. Even you acknowledged that he had ZERO blocks in game seven of '70. In the '72 game, he had EIGHT (and again a couple of very questionable goal-tends.)

And even playing on one leg, he hung a 23-24 .625 series, and in the last three games of the '70 Finals, he averaged 29 ppg, 24 rpg, and on a .709 FG%. You can say that Reed was injured in those games, but Wilt was NOWHERE NEAR 100% the entire post-season.

As for that game seven...I have long maintained that a team of Jordan's would not have beaten the Knicks that day. The Knicks came out on fire, hitting 15-21, and never looked back. And West (injured) was simply destroyed by Frazier in that game. Which at least you acknowledged (the bashers never bring that up.) Those games happen. I recall game one of the '72 Finals, when NY was hitting shots from the 405 Freeway. Same with game one of the '85 Finals, when Boston couldn't miss (the Memorial Day Massacre.) The difference between the '70 game, and the '72 and '85 games was, unfortunately for Wilt, was that the '70 game occurred in a game seven.



..

[J Shuttlesworth]

Look, I do respect your opinions, and you generally back them up with research. But, yes, it is a WILT DOUBLE STANDARD, when he was expected to put up super human games when he was hurting beyond what any other player would have endured. Even Russell said after the '68 series, that "a lessor man would not have played." Which pretty much was saying...NO ONE ELSE would have been playing under the same circumstances.

And the reality of the '68 EDF's was that Chamberlain just flat ran out of gas. I pointed out his effort in what could have been a close out in game five. And while you seem to diminish it, even you can't find too many examples of another player putting up a 28-30 game on a .500+ FG% (and just crushing Russell at the other end, as well.) The reality was, at the end of game five, Wilt's series stat-line was 24-23-7 .539. I'm sorry, but that is an IMMENSE series. And again, he accomplished that while being hobbled by SEVERAL leg and foot injuries.

And again...his COACH, one of the best ever, just plain blew game seven. Wilt TOUCHED the ball a TOTAL of NINE times on the offensive end in that game (and two of those were offensive rebounds.) And his teammates were just AWFUL in that game seven, too. I believe it was something along the lines of 34-96 from the field. In a FOUR point loss.

Of course, that series would never have even com close to a game seven had the Sixers been reasonably healthy. In fact, even without HOFer Cunningham, they still went up 3-1, and were on their way to duplicating their blowout in the '67 EDF's. BUT, in a close game five (at the time), BOTH starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones went down with injuries, and missed the rest of the game, and were basically worthless in the last two.

And, if Wilt is to blame for his game seven's, with only the '68 game seven being anywhere near a poor game, then you can blame Kareem for blowing the '74 Finals. And Wilt never had the luxury of a Magic, either (West was not on the same level as Magic), who could dominate win a series clinching game six on the road without him.

And that was not the only poor playoff game that KAJ had either. He had a poor SERIES against Thurmond twice, but was lucky enough to win on of those. In the clinching game five of the '70 ECF's, he was outplayed by Reed, in a blowout loss. In the '72 WCF's, he couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the last four games of that series (and was badly outplayed by Wilt in the clinching game six at home.) He couldn't hit a shot to save his life in a critical game five of the '84 Finals. And he was abused by Moses in both '81 and '83. In fact, it was a downright choke job to allow his 54-28 team to get beaten by a 40-42 team, in a series in which he was outplayed.

And my god, he won a ring in '88 with a poor post-season, a putrid Finals, and a horrific game seven. The Lakers won that series DESPITE him. And if you factor in that he didn't even play in game six of the '80 Finals...well there was simply NO WAY that Chamberlain would have missed that game.

Furthermore, Bird seems to get an endless number of free passes for his many games and series in which he "supposedly" hurt. Hell, Chamberlain came back four months from major knee surgery, while Bird missed almost an entire season in 88-89, including the playoffs. And Wilt at least returned to close to a dominating presence after his surgery, while Bird was a shell after his. And the reality was, Bird was putting up sub-par, to even awful, post-season games and series in which he was hurt, while Chamberlain was hanging 20-20's in his.

And the Hakeem fans here point out his "clutch" play in the post-season, and give him excuses for poor teammates, but had Chamberlain been routinely getting bounced in the first round in his post-season career, and his numbers would have been more impressive, as well (especially pre-injury.) Furthermore, Hakeem's title run in '94 involved three series in which he didn't even face a legitimate starting center (and came in a league in which MJ's Bulls went 55-27 without him.) And in his '95 Finals, he shot-jacked his way to an eFG% of .488, in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .504, while allowing Shaq to nearly match his scoring, but on a .590 FG%. And had his teammates not badly outplayed Shaq's, he might not have won a ring that year, either.

Yet, Chamberlain was carrying last place rosters to game seven losses by razor thin margins, in series in which he was averaging 34-27 and 30-31. And when he finally had a roster the equal of Russell's, that was healthy, and reasonably coached...a dominating world title that included a 4-1 blowout of Russell's 8-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics.

So, yes...the WILT DOUBLE STANDARD



Again, most of your post is basically spot on.

Regarding that game seven...

There is some mis-information about the events that actually took place. Charley Rosen, in his book on the '72 Lakers, ripped Wilt for pulling himself out of the game after his team had blown a big lead. Which was completely FALSE.

The 4th quarter is there to watch on Youtube, but I will condense the events from that game. Boston had controlled the entire game, and by late in the third quarter, they had built a 15 point lead. On top of that, Chamberlain picked up his fifth personal foul late in that period, as well.

Early in the 4th quarter, it was now Russell who picked up his 5th foul. And, to no one's surprise, the Lakers immediately went into Wilt, who went right around Russell's matador defense, for an easy layin. What was a surprise, however, was the fact that the Lakers didn't go back to Wilt again.

With about 10 minutes left in the game, Boston had extended the lead to 17 points. However, this was an aging team, and the pace was definitely affecting them. Soon after that, Sam Jones fouled out, and LA went on a furious rally. With around the five minute mark, Wilt grabbed a rebound (his second in a row on an injured leg...which matched Russell's rebounding total for the entire quarter BTW), and with his outlet pass, West was fouled. Wilt HAD to come out (and even his coach would later acknowledge that Wilt was hurting.) West hit the ensuing FTs, to cut the margin to seven points. So, in about a span of five minutes, the Lakers had cut Boston's lead from 17 down to 7.

Now, that begs the REAL question. IF Chamberlain were indeed "feigning" an injury, to perhaps somewhat limit the damage to his career, why didn't he choose to pull that stunt when he picked up his 5th foul late in the third quarter, and down by 15 points? Why would he pick a time when it was becoming clear that Boston was now running on fumes, and were ripe for the taking with a full five minutes left?

And yes, the Lakers continued to cut into the deficit, getting to within one point with about a minute remaining. However, Wilt's "replacement", Ml Counts, missed a shot, and then committed a key turnover in that last minute, and Boston, behind a miraculous shot by Nelson, held on to win the game by two points.

The bottom line, though, was that Wilt played well enough in that game. In his 43 minutes, he had scored 18 points, on 7-8 FG/FGA (albeit, 4-13 from the line) with 27 rebounds. And he certainly outplayed Russell, who put up a 6 point game, on 2-7 shooting (and 2-4 from the line), with 21 rebounds in 48 minutes. In fact, if you watch that 4th quarter, it becomes readily apparent, that Russell completely hid in that 4th quarter. Even Counts put up a couple of baskets against him.

Just thought I would add what REALLY happened in that game.

In the '68 EDF's, he DOMINATED the series thru the first five games, including what could have been the series clincher in game five....all while noticeably limping throughout the series. Of course, he wasn't the only Sixer having injury issues...basically all of his key players were either hampered with injuries, or missed the entire series. Again, in the first five game... 24-23-7 .539, with a game five of 28-30 on 11-21 shooting (all while slaughtering Russell.)

Of course, RUSSELL gets credit for a ring in that series, despite being brutalized for much of it. AND, Wilt's injury-riddled teammates flat choked in game seven. Again, if you are blaming Wilt for the last two games, then blame Kareem for his game seven of the '74 Finals, and say it was completely his fault that his team lost that series.

Wilt's game seven in '70, on a surgically repaired knee, and only four months after the major surgery????? In a game in which he played well (geezus, find me all the 21-24 10-16 games that a HEALTHY KAJ put up in a game seven of the Finals.) BTW, how about that MUST WIN game six performance? 45-27 on 20-27 shooting? I don't care if he was facing Betty White, he completely dismantled the Knicks entire team in that game.

Of course...back to the WILT DOUBLE STANDARD. He was EXPECTED to hang a 45-27 game EVERY time he played, right?

And finally...the '69 Finals. Virtually every Wilt fan would concede it was the worst post-season series of his career. BUT, it certainly went beyond WILT. His COACH has to take the BRUNT of the blame.

How about game four? The Lakers were leading 88-87, and had the ball, with only around 20 secs left. Any reasonable coach would have put the ball in WEST's hands, right? Nope, not the "Butcher" van Breda Kolff. He had journeyman Johnny Egan, who only made the roster because had to trade Archie Clark away to get Wilt, and then lost Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft...had the damn ball, was stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winning shot at the buzzer.

How important was that ONE PLAY? It cost LA a 3-1 series lead, and given the fact that Chamberlain crushed Russell in game five, in a 117-104 romp...that ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a 4-1 series win.


That's a lot of damn words

http://i.imgur.com/VEr9Yfi.png

[J Shuttlesworth]

I actually do like Laz, but man that's a lot of time spent defending Wilt :(

[Jameerthefear]

Laz is a sad old loser. I feel sorry for him

[K Xerxes]

He doesn't write all of these from scratch though. He has documents of these essays saved and he mixes and mashes them to suit the argument he wants to make.

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly agree with Laz on how important the team around a player is, but he flat out refuses to acknowledge that Wilt's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER! Seriously, look it up, he doesn't have one postseason run that even matches his regular season output, let alone surpasses it. He can make essay after essay about how he was outmatched by the Russell Celtics, which is a fair point, but to absolutely refuse to criticize his ppg decline as a reason for some of his defeats is not being objective and biased

[Dr Hawk]

I honestly agree with Laz on how important the team around a player is, but he flat out refuses to acknowledge that Wilt's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER! Seriously, look it up, he doesn't have one postseason run that even matches his regular season output, let alone surpasses it. He can make essay after essay about how he was outmatched by the Russell Celtics, which is a fair point, but to absolutely refuse to criticize his ppg decline as a reason for some of his defeats is not being objective and biased

That is true, but I think that it is unfair as well. Kind of looking down on Wilt's still amazing PO scoring numbers because of how high his scoring in the RS was.

Had he scored less in the RS, maintaining the same exact numbers during PO's, and I can see people saying how he improved his play during the PO's compared to his RS numbers. Because his PO scoring numbers are indeed impressive, from 23 years old to 31 his average was 29ppg on .51 FG%.

[9erempiree]

Don't hate on these essay writers.

I have made a thread about how great these guys are to me.

[T_L_P]

I honestly agree with Laz on how important the team around a player is, but he flat out refuses to acknowledge that Wilt's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER! Seriously, look it up, he doesn't have one postseason run that even matches his regular season output, let alone surpasses it. He can make essay after essay about how he was outmatched by the Russell Celtics, which is a fair point, but to absolutely refuse to criticize his ppg decline as a reason for some of his defeats is not being objective and biased

What bugs me about Laz is, he posts these essays that are nothing but opposing Center FG%s, as if Wilt was defending said player on every possession.

And he never engages on Wilt's actual play. Show him a game highlight and he'll go on about how Wilt destroyed the opposing player seven years prior, as if that has anything to do with his stiff movements, bad timing/positioning, or his terribly lazy FT attempts (players would likely get benched for that today).

He's just so robotic. He sucks the wind out of every thread, and he never stops making excuses for Wilt.

Bested by a certain player? Doesn't matter, Wilt outperformed him in most of the other games.

Scoring dip from Regular Season to Playoffs to Finals? Doesn't matter, he could have scored more if he wanted to, and his coaches tried making him look bad.

Poor postseason play late in his career? Injured.

Poor FT shooting? Shaq wasn't good at the line either.

It's really boring now. He must know nobody reads his essays anymore.

[SHAQisGOAT]

What bugs me about Laz is, he posts these essays that are nothing but opposing Center FG%s, as if Wilt was defending said player on every possession.

And he never engages on Wilt's actual play. Show him a game highlight and he'll go on about how Wilt destroyed the opposing player seven years prior, as if that has anything to do with his stiff movements, bad timing/positioning, or his terribly lazy FT attempts (players would likely get benched for that today).

He's just so robotic. He sucks the wind out of every thread, and he never stops making excuses for Wilt.

Bested by a certain player? Doesn't matter, Wilt outperformed him in most of the other games.

Scoring dip from Regular Season to Playoffs to Finals? Doesn't matter, he could have scored more if he wanted to, and his coaches tried making him look bad.

Poor postseason play late in his career? Injured.

Poor FT shooting? Shaq wasn't good at the line either.

It's really boring now. He must know nobody reads his essays anymore.

:applause: :applause:

Clear that he hasn't seen shit, like he claims...

[SaltyMeatballs]

Laz is a sad old loser. I feel sorry for him
I wouldn't be calling someone else a loser if I were you. I mean your only friends ARE on ISH and they're all located here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380423

Along with the fact you have over 50,000 posts (counting your alts) in just 4 years. The word over here is that you get banned every couple months. If that wasn't the case, you would've had 60,000 combined. Loser.

Go ahead. Be an internet thug and tell me that you'll kick my ass outside. I'll be waiting, but I know you wouldn't show up because the reality is, is that you haven't seen sunlight since June 2011 :confusedshrug:

[Jameerthefear]

I wouldn't be calling someone else a loser if I were you. I mean your only friends ARE on ISH and they're all located here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380423

Along with the fact you have over 50,000 posts (counting your alts) in just 4 years. The word over here is that you get banned every couple months. If that wasn't the case, you would've had 60,000 combined. Loser.

Go ahead. Be an internet thug and tell me that you'll kick my ass outside. I'll be waiting, but I know you wouldn't show up because the reality is, is that you haven't seen sunlight since June 2011 :confusedshrug:
Rent free.

[Fallen Angel]

SaltyMeatballs is a young RTC.

Greatness awaits.

[AceManIII]

What bugs me about Laz is, he posts these essays that are nothing but opposing Center FG%s, as if Wilt was defending said player on every possession.

And he never engages on Wilt's actual play. Show him a game highlight and he'll go on about how Wilt destroyed the opposing player seven years prior, as if that has anything to do with his stiff movements, bad timing/positioning, or his terribly lazy FT attempts (players would likely get benched for that today).

He's just so robotic. He sucks the wind out of every thread, and he never stops making excuses for Wilt.

Bested by a certain player? Doesn't matter, Wilt outperformed him in most of the other games.

Scoring dip from Regular Season to Playoffs to Finals? Doesn't matter, he could have scored more if he wanted to, and his coaches tried making him look bad.

Poor postseason play late in his career? Injured.

Poor FT shooting? Shaq wasn't good at the line either.

It's really boring now. He must know nobody reads his essays anymore.

Dat Wilt Double-Standard! :oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

What bugs me about Laz is, he posts these essays that are nothing but opposing Center FG%s, as if Wilt was defending said player on every possession.

And he never engages on Wilt's actual play. Show him a game highlight and he'll go on about how Wilt destroyed the opposing player seven years prior, as if that has anything to do with his stiff movements, bad timing/positioning, or his terribly lazy FT attempts (players would likely get benched for that today).

He's just so robotic. He sucks the wind out of every thread, and he never stops making excuses for Wilt.

Bested by a certain player? Doesn't matter, Wilt outperformed him in most of the other games.

Scoring dip from Regular Season to Playoffs to Finals? Doesn't matter, he could have scored more if he wanted to, and his coaches tried making him look bad.

Poor postseason play late in his career? Injured.

Poor FT shooting? Shaq wasn't good at the line either.

It's really boring now. He must know nobody reads his essays anymore.
The funny thing is he was actually exposed a while ago. Seriously, check this post out: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

[Asukal]

You all forgot to mention he was jlauber before going main with LAZERUSS. He used to say this about the 60's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Tell me how one who supposedly watched the games and is a knowledgeable basketball mind would go from saying one thing then completely changed his opinion overnight. :confusedshrug:

He had no counter to this other than to change to his alt. And to this very day, he denies any involvement to jlauber. But it is not rocket science to see that they post the same way and the same things. :rolleyes:

[J Shuttlesworth]

You all forgot to mention he was jlauber before going main with LAZERUSS. He used to say this about the 60's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Tell me how one who supposedly watched the games and is a knowledgeable basketball mind would go from saying one thing then completely changed his opinion overnight. :confusedshrug:

He had no counter to this other than to change to his alt. And to this very day, he denies any involvement to jlauber. But it is not rocket science to see that they post the same way and the same things. :rolleyes:
This is actually some pretty bizarre stuff. I've heard of jlauber, but never knew of the Laz connection

BTW, how come CavsFTW will call out pauk for writing essays, but not Laz?

[Jameerthefear]

This is actually some pretty bizarre stuff. I've heard of jlauber, but never knew of the Laz connection

BTW, how come CavsFTW will call out pauk for writing essays, but not Laz?
I mean...it's pretty obvious. Milwad use to call him out before he got banned.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I mean...it's pretty obvious. Milwad use to call him out before he got banned.
I wasn't a member of this site back then though.

[DMV2]

This is actually some pretty bizarre stuff. I've heard of jlauber, but never knew of the Laz connection

BTW, how come CavsFTW will call out pauk for writing essays, but not Laz?
you must be a legit 2014 poster then if you didn't know Laz was jlauber

[DMV2]

I mean...it's pretty obvious. Milwad use to call him out before he got banned.
millwad also started a rumor that jlauber passed away. old age, natural cause or something. lol

[Asukal]

millwad also started a rumor that jlauber passed away. old age, natural cause or something. lol

millwad was doing fine until he got too personal with his attacks. The things he said were creepy and in stalker territory. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

You all forgot to mention he was jlauber before going main with LAZERUSS. He used to say this about the 60's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Tell me how one who supposedly watched the games and is a knowledgeable basketball mind would go from saying one thing then completely changed his opinion overnight. :confusedshrug:

He had no counter to this other than to change to his alt. And to this very day, he denies any involvement to jlauber. But it is not rocket science to see that they post the same way and the same things. :rolleyes:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6629277&postcount=100

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6628579&postcount=73

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6628588&postcount=75

[Asukal]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6629277&postcount=100

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6628579&postcount=73

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6628588&postcount=75

You claim to have watched a lot wilt games. If this was true, why would you have a different opinion on the 60's just a few years ago then suddenly change overnight? It only means one thing, you lied about watching those games. :rolleyes:

[Poochymama]

It's obvious as hell that Laz is lying about having watched the 60's.

1. All he ever talks about is stats and quotes from others at the time.
2. He went from bashing/laughing at the 60s to stanning it just a few years ago when he realized it left holes in his Wilt love arguments. One doesn't go from bashing/laughing at an era for 40 years to stanning it over the course of 1-2 if he/she actually saw the era.

Compare Laz's posts to other guys who claim to have seen that era like LaFrescobaldi...it's obvious who's lying and who isn't.

Most likely Lazeruss/Jlauber/Jeff Lauber is a guy in his 30s or 40s who fell in love with Wilt 10 years ago or so and dedicated his life to trying to convince others that Wilt is the best player/human ever. He originally bashed the 60s based on both his lack of knowledge of any other player besides Wilt and footage of players available at the time(which is generally not very impressive based on modern standards). He changed his tune when he realized the "competition" argument could be used to discredit his now favorite player.

Either that or he's crazy and actually did completely 180 his views a few years ago 40 years after the fact. I guess that's also possible.

[Dresta]

He's the bastard offspring of the man himself.

[Marchesk]

Most likely Lazeruss/Jlauber/Jeff Lauber

Hmmm, Jeff? So let's see. Euroleague, Theoo, 3Ball, maybe Lazarus? Damn. Who else? Kenneth? Pauk? The entire Lebron family?

[magnax1]

He doesn't write all of these from scratch though. He has documents of these essays saved and he mixes and mashes them to suit the argument he wants to make.
This. Which is kind of weird, but whatever.

[RRR3]

Hmmm, Jeff? So let's see. Euroleague, Theoo, 3Ball, maybe Lazarus? Damn. Who else? Kenneth? Pauk? The entire Lebron family?
Literally every poster on this board is Jeff. In fact, this is Jeff on his RRR3 account responding to Jeff on his Marchesk account.

[And1AllDay]

King LAZ :bowdown:

[KembaWalker]

What bugs me about Laz is, he posts these essays that are nothing but opposing Center FG%s, as if Wilt was defending said player on every possession.

And he never engages on Wilt's actual play. Show him a game highlight and he'll go on about how Wilt destroyed the opposing player seven years prior, as if that has anything to do with his stiff movements, bad timing/positioning, or his terribly lazy FT attempts (players would likely get benched for that today).

He's just so robotic. He sucks the wind out of every thread, and he never stops making excuses for Wilt.

Bested by a certain player? Doesn't matter, Wilt outperformed him in most of the other games.

Scoring dip from Regular Season to Playoffs to Finals? Doesn't matter, he could have scored more if he wanted to, and his coaches tried making him look bad.

Poor postseason play late in his career? Injured.

Poor FT shooting? Shaq wasn't good at the line either.

It's really boring now. He must know nobody reads his essays anymore.

Possibly my all time excuse at the moment, blaming the time of day :roll:



And as Elosha pointed out, we don't know just how Wilt's physical play was affected by a seven game series, in which game six was a night game, and game seven was played two days later in the afternoon.

[AceManIII]

The funny thing is he was actually exposed a while ago. Seriously, check this post out: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Honestly, after reading that thread...I will never respond to Laz again.

[Marchesk]

Literally every poster on this board is Jeff. In fact, this is Jeff on his RRR3 account responding to Jeff on his Marchesk account.

We are all one. Lennon's dream was achieved. Jeff is Brahman. Lebron stans will be reincarnated as Kobe stans who will be reincarnated as Jordan stans. The final step is Wilt before Nirvana. Only a few have reached enlightenment.

[Poochymama]

Hmmm, Jeff? So let's see. Euroleague, Theoo, 3Ball, maybe Lazarus? Damn. Who else? Kenneth? Pauk? The entire Lebron family?
He goes by Jeff Lauber on other boards. I assume its the same guy, though I guess I could be wrong.

[AirFederer]

Just wow
:roll:



Four days ago, I posted a link to a post I’d written regarding Chamberlain’s competition I’d copied from another post I’d written where I was in a debate with someone who said Chamberlain had no competition.



For YEARS I’ve heard posters repeat that line, so finally, I had enough. I didn’t resort to making statements of unverified accuracy. No. I did research and posted the results. Anyone can look at those facts and check it for themselves and then see if these oft-repeated statements hold any truth to them.

See, that’s the beauty of TRUTH. That’s the wonderful thing about FACTS. You can’t argue against FACTS, because if you do, you end up looking like a fool. And you thereby expose your ignorance, and show that you’re not interested in the truth, just in your agenda.

I’ve referred people back to that post when the issue of Wilt’s competition would rise, and I suppose that I should actually save it elsewhere, because it’s dated January 2008, and as of now it’s nine pages away from the end of the archive, meaning by the beginning of the year it’ll be pushed out of the archives and lost forever, going the way of the many other posts I’ve made through the years.

Now, continuing from the last post, I expressed confusion over a double standard. I also am curious about something else. It’s a question I’ve had for a while, but recent events have caused me to raise this question.

I shared a take which I expressed elsewhere, several years ago. It is, to my knowledge, the oldest currently accessible post that I have written on a basketball message board which shows a stance I had on an issue. I am still consistent with that position today.

Others, however, have not been consistent, but have varied wildly through the years. In fact, certain positions might come as downright shocking today if people were aware of it. I myself find it fascinating observing how a person’s take on something can drastically change to the point that it’s unrecognizable.

For instance:



:wtf:



:wtf:



:wtf:



:wtf:

I myself find it downright MIND-BOGGLING that you could make such statements and yet no one had the sense enough to call attention to this disparity between this and what you would later say. It’s like there must have been no analytical thinkers. It never even OCCURRED to anyone that there was a discrepancy between the above statements and statements like this:





First your take is that modern players “far superior” to players of the past, and then you do a complete 180 with no one thinking anything of it.



I find this statement downright baffling considering you were guilty of disparaging them yourself.







Two days later:



Wait... first your demand for proof that modern athletes are more athletic than in the past, then two days later you say it’s indisputable? What? So vacillating.



Can’t even stay consistent for a couple of days. Speaking of consistency, though:



WOW.

:eek:

Let me reiterate: Russell would be “another Ben Wallace with better passing, which isn’t saying much,” (a sentiment which you have expressed on NUMEROUS occasions in the past) and West, Robertson and maybe a handful of others “would be good players today, but all stars?” You are on RECORD as stating that some of the greatest players ever to have played the game would be good, but you question whether they would be all stars in the modern era. This is only a slight step up from the people who claim they would be benchwarmers today. Except, of course, Wilt, who would not only be an all star, but the best center in the league.

Defend Wilt to the hilt but throw his contemporaries under the bus.

:facepalm

You should APOLOGIZE to people like PHILA, who fights against this, and has been CONSISTENT for every post I’ve read of his. At the same time I was DEFENDING Wilt and the competition he played against against people who bashed them on various forums across the internet, lo and behold, jlauber is ON RECORD as being AMONG that number—yet paradoxically still praising Wilt, somehow not grasping the inherent contradiction in stating that while Wilt was the best, it’s doubtful as to whether anyone else of that era would be an all star in the modern game. Perpetrating THE VERY STEREOTYPE that I made a point to officially debunk 2 5/6 years ago in that post I linked to what I’d been hearing for YEARS by actually giving an in-depth look and providing FACTS. I’ve been CONSISTENT. I have NEVER ONCE at any point in life disparaged the players of the past, but have tried to educate people who don’t know as much about the men who paved the way for the game today.

I think of Wilt fans such as Judd Vance (Air Judden), who put together what is to this day the best Wilt site I’ve ever seen—which every Wilt fan I have ever seen has referred to at some point or other, and he NEVER made any statements like those you’re ON RECORD as making.

I told you my agenda is truth. I will remind you that you “challenged” me to provide examples of some of your statements. So I decided to throw in a bonus and go the extra mile. I think I and some others would be very interested in hearing your “explanation” of your unknown take. As I said in the first of these posts, I found very curious your choice of word “deceit.”

Of course, it must be obvious that you must not have said any of that either Wait, wait, I know... some KID hacked into your account, STOLE your identity and made those statements. That must also be the explanation for why you did indeed say that Wilt had four 50-point games against Russell in ’61-62. It wasn’t really YOU.

:oldlol:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today.” – July 22, 2005



Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 "stiffs." – January 24, 2006



Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“Wilt's competition in that 61-62 season was not stellar. Basically only Russell and Bellamy were anywhere near his ability...and neither could approach him in terms of statistical domination.” – May 5, 2007



Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“I know both you and I will get some flak from "old-timers" about how great some of them were . . . , but realistically, todays basketball players, although many lacking in fundamental skills, are far superior to the players of the 60's.”



I myself find it downright MIND-BOGGLING that you could make such statements and yet no one had the sense enough to call attention to this disparity between this and what you would later say. It’s like there must have been no analytical thinkers. It never even OCCURRED to anyone that there was a discrepancy between the above statements and statements like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“Centers of the 60's and 70's, so many in the HOF BTW, [had] size, athletic ability and certainly the skills of today's centers.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“Look, if you want to believe that today's CENTERS, almost all of which YOU have NEVER heard of, are better than the GREATS from the 60's, 70's, and 80's...go right ahead.”

First your take is that modern players “far superior” to players of the past, and then you do a complete 180 with no one thinking anything of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“I am getting sick-and-tired of the assertion of the quality of players he faced.” – November 9, 2008

I find this statement downright baffling considering you were guilty of disparaging them yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“the athletes are better today, no question”

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“My personal opinion on athletics today is that, yes, today's athletes are generally bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, and better fed than those of 20 years ago or more.” – August 30, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“You say today's big men are bigger, more athletic, and more skilled. Yes, they are slightly bigger. More athletic? Prove it.” – November 9, 2008

Two days later:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“The arguement that today's players and athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, better fed, have better equipment, better medical care, and yes, even better illegal performance enhancers, is indisputeable.”

Wait... first your demand for proof that modern athletes are more athletic than in the past, then two days later you say it’s indisputable? What? So vacillating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.)”

Can’t even stay consistent for a couple of days. Speaking of consistency, though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
“There is no doubt in my mind that Wilt would be an all-star player today. I certainly wouldn't expect him to score 50 ppg, or grab 27 rpg...but perhaps 30 and 18, in his prime, would have been possible...which would place him above all the centers of today. I think someone on this forum said, or read something to the effect, that Wilt was a cross between Garnett and Shaq. That would be worth about $40 mil a year today.

How many other basketball players could you say that about? Perhaps Russell would be another Ben Wallace, albeit a better passer...but that is not saying much. Sure, West, Robertson, and maybe a handful of others would be good players today, but all-stars?”