Tristan Thompson will leave Cavs if forced to take 1-year deal per Agent

[Fallen Angel]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13412388/tristan-thompson-stay-cleveland-cavaliers-2015-16-season-forced-take-1-year-deal-agent-says?ex_cid=espnTW

[TheCorporation]

How much is he trying to get paid, though? Love is the obvious starter at the 4 so how can the Cavs justify paying TT near max money as a back-up 4?

[HurricaneKid]

How much is he trying to get paid, though? Love is the obvious starter at the 4 so how can the Cavs justify paying TT near max money as a back-up 4?

Backup demanding 94M/5.

Ugh. :no: :no:

Does he really think he is going to get that money elsewhere next year? I don't know who is going to pay an energy bench guy max money next year (or any year).

I do think he offers a lot defensively. But nowhere near what he is asking for.

[ihatetimthomas]

Backup demanding 94M/5.

Ugh. :no: :no:

Does he really think he is going to get that money elsewhere next year? I don't know who is going to pay an energy bench guy max money next year (or any year).

I do think he offers a lot defensively. But nowhere near what he is asking for.

Outside of Kevin Durant, there are not many big named players who are free agents. I think he has a good chance of getting paid as teams w cap will always payout. So with the cap increasing, lack of premiere free agents, and being only 24, he has a shot at getting big money.

[NattyPButter]

No offensive game and is ok on defense. All he's good for is getting rebounds. No thx. He also hasn't progressed much since his rookie year. If he wasn't playing with Lebron this past year he would still be pissng a lot of us Cavs fans off.

[Legends66NBA7]

Does he really think he is going to get that money elsewhere next year? I don't know who is going to pay an energy bench guy max money next year (or any year).

Probably Toronto.

[QuebecBaller]

Probably Toronto.

YES! YES! YES!

[bdreason]

Decent defender. No offensive game outside of rebounds. This guy was switching his shooting hand a year ago, now he's demanding $100m? :confusedshrug:

[WorldWarriors]

I thought he was expecting Draymond Green money or somewhere around there.

[Fallen Angel]

He proved his value in the playoffs. He's gonna get paid by some team in need of a legit PF.

Tristan Thompson was easily the Cavaliers 2nd best player in the postseason for his consistent dominance on the offensive glass and interior scoring.

He deserved Anderson Varejao's money and then some.

[dazzer87]

this hack think hes worth more.......:roll:

[Fallen Angel]

http://bkref.com/tiny/BKYjp

[jbryan1984]

Dude amazes me that he thinks he deserves this kind of money. He was playing a ton of minutes in the finals and we were very dependent on him due to injuries. I don't know what more he wants the Cavs to do, they offered him a great deal.

[Meticode]

If Cavs don't pay him, he'll get even more money from someone with the increases in cap space coming due to the TV deal and assumingly this would make LeBron upset. Which means after next year we get to worry about him opting out and leaving because he's unhappy with the front offense.

[Fallen Angel]

If Cleveland doesn't pay him then they are gonna suffer the most. Thompson has all the leverage to pressure the Cavaliers into making a deal or not. If he leaves then Cleveland is gonna have to pray hard that Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao stay healthy throughout the season (by the way, Kevin Love is gonna miss some time at the beginning of the season because of his shoulder injury).

Thompson will get still get paid if the Cavaliers don't pull the trigger. Plenty of teams are in need for versatile PFs who can switch on the PnR, his offensive rebounding proved to be an extremely valuable asset.

The fact that every team will have cap space when the salary cap jumps up means every team is in player for Tristan Thompson's services if the want him.

[305Baller]

TT is better than Love. No coincidence they killed Chicago without Love.

[Spurs m8]

LMAO dude has an inflated sense of worth

[RedBlackAttack]

This is how Rich Paul operates. He seems really good at ostracizing his clients from their organization and fans. His Bledsoe holdout last year was ridiculous, and it looks like we're heading there again with TT.

Such a shame, because TT had a pretty impeccable reputation off the floor with the Cavs and the city prior to his agent pitching a tent.

[HurricaneKid]

Agent did the EXACT same thing with (I think) his only other client last year in Bledsoe. I can't imagine he doesn't re-sign with Cle at the last possible moment. Otherwise he risks playing in a front court with KLove/AV/Mozzy/LBJ in his contract year. He is going to turn down 80M guaranteed to play for 7 and... hope?

Toronto just let Amir go who was every bit the player he is.

Next year is going to be STUPID. No FAs and half the league is going to be below the salary floor. Still, this is silly.

[Fallen Angel]

Thompson is starting to get underrated. Everyone was shouting during the postseason that Tristan Thompson is gonna get PAID, but now people are backpedaling on that statement.

He's a quality STARTING Power Forward.
He's better than Amir Johnson and way better than Anderson Varejao.
His postseason, alone, was more impressive than Kevin Love's entire regular and short postseason as a Cleveland Cavalier.

[Sarcastic]

Lebron and Co. are taking Gilbert to the cleaners. But he deserves it, since he was one of the owners pushing for the last CBA.

[chips93]

TT is obviously a beast on the offensive glass, but on a per possession basis, he actually wasnt any better this post season than he has been at any stage in his career.

the big difference was the cavs playing ugly iso ball, generating more misses (their fg% dropped from 46% to 42%), and more opportunities for offensive rebounds.

[FireDavidKahn]

:sleeping Who cares. Healthy Love >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thompson

[FireDavidKahn]

He proved his value in the playoffs. He's gonna get paid by some team in need of a legit PF.

Tristan Thompson was easily the Cavaliers 2nd best player in the postseason for his consistent dominance on the offensive glass and interior scoring.

He deserved Anderson Varejao's money and then some.
:oldlol: That isn't saying much.

[FireDavidKahn]

http://bkref.com/tiny/BKYjp
His offensive game blows and he is only an average defender. If they Cavs asked for Love to camp in the post he would replicate those offensive boards as well.

[chips93]

His offensive game blows and he is only an average defender. If they Cavs asked for Love to camp in the post he would replicate those offensive boards as well.

hes well above average defensively

he can switch onto smaller guards as well as anyone not named draymond, hes a decent shot blocker, he moves his feet well guarding the pick and roll, and hes decent at defending the post.

[Akrazotile]

Lebron and Co. are taking Gilbert to the cleaners. But he deserves it, since he was one of the owners pushing for the last CBA.


Gilbert's probably a racist, isnt he?

[Bankaii]

hes well above average defensively

he can switch onto smaller guards as well as anyone not named draymond, hes a decent shot blocker, he moves his feet well guarding the pick and roll, and hes decent at defending the post.
I have to disagree with this.
He's a solid post defender and does have good footwork defensively for a big but Golden States murdered him when he had to switch onto them. Outside of his rebounding he doesn't have any resounding qualities that allow him to demand that kind of money. Especially now that he's a backup.

[RedBlackAttack]

I have to disagree with this.
He's a solid post defender and does have good footwork defensively for a big but Golden States murdered him when he had to switch onto them. Outside of his rebounding he doesn't have any resounding qualities that allow him to demand that kind of money. Especially now that he's a backup.
The Cavs did about as good a job defensively on Golden State as was humanly possible under the extremely extenuating circumstances. The problem in that series had nothing to do with defense. It was the lack of options offensively and a 5-6 man rotation getting completely worn out -- which became obvious by the 5th game -- against a ridiculously deep team.

Tristan averaged 42 minutes a game in that series.

[97 bulls]

I have a question. If Tristan Thompson was a starter on another team what would he avg as far as ppg, rbds, FG%. If he got 39 minutes a night

[coin24]

He's got the cavs by the balls:lol

Everyone knows vagiinajao can barely play half a season and love is garbage/injury prone also:oldlol:

[Cocaine80s]

He's got the cavs by the balls:lol

Everyone knows vagiinajao can barely play half a season and love is garbage/injury prone also:oldlol:
Agreed, if Lebron can somehow lead this team to a championship he is top 5 all time

[nba_55]

If Cleveland doesn't pay him then they are gonna suffer the most. Thompson has all the leverage to pressure the Cavaliers into making a deal or not. If he leaves then Cleveland is gonna have to pray hard that Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao stay healthy throughout the season (by the way, Kevin Love is gonna miss some time at the beginning of the season because of his shoulder injury).

Thompson will get still get paid if the Cavaliers don't pull the trigger. Plenty of teams are in need for versatile PFs who can switch on the PnR, his offensive rebounding proved to be an extremely valuable asset.

The fact that every team will have cap space when the salary cap jumps up means every team is in player for Tristan Thompson's services if the want him.

His agent is threatening that Thompson will leave the year after this upcoming season. He will be a Cavs next season for sure.

[nba_55]

Thompson is starting to get underrated. Everyone was shouting during the postseason that Tristan Thompson is gonna get PAID, but now people are backpedaling on that statement.

He's a quality STARTING Power Forward.
He's better than Amir Johnson and way better than Anderson Varejao.
His postseason, alone, was more impressive than Kevin Love's entire regular and short postseason as a Cleveland Cavalier.

4 years around 80M is getting paid. That's an awesome deal for a backup power forward (atleast with cavs). It seems like he refused that offer.

[nba_55]

TT is better than Love. No coincidence they killed Chicago without Love.

Why are you assuming that they wouldn't kill chicago with Love?

[Marv_Albert]

Can't believe he think's he's worth max money...

[bobopenguin]

why he turned down $80mil is absurd..
this guy is on crack..

[97 bulls]

I have a question. If Tristan Thompson was a starter on another team what would he avg as far as ppg, rbds, FG%. If he got 39 minutes a night
Bump

[Lebron23]

He's going to resign with the Cavaliers. Love and Varejao are both injury prone. Thompson knows his limitation. He's very lucky he played with LeBron last year.

[oh the horror]

Agreed, if Lebron can somehow lead this team to a championship he is top 5 all time



It's past your bedtime son. You're sleepy.

[Lebron23]

Bump

No. He's very limited offensively. His career high scoring averaged is only 11.7 ppg in 32 minutes. JJ Hickson is a better offensive player than him. Playing with Lebron made him look good in the NBA Finals.

[Fallen Angel]

Bump
39 minutes per game is not realistic at all.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/minutes/sort/avgMinutes

He averaged 11/9 during the 2014 season when he was a starter. I'd say he could bump it up to 13/11/1 with the right perimeter player by his side, which is good from a play you don't expect offense from.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Bump

He averaged 11/11 per 36 minutes so probably 12/11 or something?

He's nowhere near worth a max deal considering he doesn't provide rim protection, basically just a good rebounder who can finish off lobs and good passes where he can just dunk.

He won't get close to a max deal as a UFA next season so he'd be smart to take this, playing alongside LeBron has made him seem a lot more valuable than he really is too. On a bad team he'd be Ed Davis, though Ed Davis has superior per/36 stats in quite literally every statistical category.

In fact you could definitely make the argument that Davis is a better player.

[97 bulls]

39 minutes per game is not realistic at all.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/minutes/sort/avgMinutes

He averaged 11/9 during the 2014 season when he was a starter. I'd say he could bump it up to 13/11/1 with the right perimeter player by his side, which is good from a play you don't expect offense from.
Good point. Thanx for the info.

[bdreason]

Thompson gonna bring that negative karma all season. :applause:

[Fallen Angel]

Toronto would be the perfect place for him.

[yeaaaman]

I have to disagree with this.
He's a solid post defender and does have good footwork defensively for a big but Golden States murdered him when he had to switch onto them. Outside of his rebounding he doesn't have any resounding qualities that allow him to demand that kind of money. Especially now that he's a backup.

Um I'm pretty sure that happens to any big that switches onto Curry...He did about as good a job possible and did show a great ability to move his feet.

[yeaaaman]

No. He's very limited offensively. His career high scoring averaged is only 11.7 ppg in 32 minutes. JJ Hickson is a better offensive player than him. Playing with Lebron made him look good in the NBA Finals.

Listen man we know Lebron is amazing lol but come on the guys main attribute is offensive rebounding, how the hell did Lebron make him look good in the Finals?? Unless you're saying all those missed shots created the opportunity for TT....

[Lebron23]

Listen man we know Lebron is amazing lol but come on the guys main attribute is offensive rebounding, how the hell did Lebron make him look good in the Finals?? Unless you're saying all those missed shots created the opportunity for TT....


I am talking about the rest of the playoffs. LeBron gave him some easy lob passes. He's amazing he's able to win 2 games vs. Warriors without Love and Irving. Thanks also to Klay Thompson s*cking like a prostitute.

[PleezeBelieve]

Cavs paying Mozgov before this guy.

Tristan can kick rocks

[chips93]

I have to disagree with this.
He's a solid post defender and does have good footwork defensively for a big but Golden States murdered him when he had to switch onto them. Outside of his rebounding he doesn't have any resounding qualities that allow him to demand that kind of money. Especially now that he's a backup.

the warriors didnt murder him, the league mvp murdered him. he does that to whole league

[Lebron23]

If Christmas didn't sucked in the summer league. The Cavaliers could have finally found a replacement to Thompson.

[bobopenguin]

lol i got a feeling that we all gonna laugh so hard at this dude later when he's no longer getting $80mil.

bosses need to say fk u to this guy and his agent.

[4 Inches]

Rich Paul running the Cavaliers :bowdown:
Good to see a black owned franchises in the League

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Thompson is worth 97m/5 imo. Rebounds, protects the rim, is young and the cap is going up. Name 5 better players at what he does

[Clifton]

I don't understand this Tristan Thompson thing at all.

I know what they say about the squeaky wheel, but... you only need 3 wheels to keep balance, and any more than 4 isn't even helpful. He's the 5th best player on the Cavs. He's getting offered near-max money. I don't get it, what's the problem?

[Clifton]

Thompson is worth 97m/5 imo. Rebounds, protects the rim, is young and the cap is going up. Name 5 better players at what he does
Maybe I'm just too old school. To me, if a big man is asking for the max, I assume he's... prime Elton Brand. He's one of your two most important players and he gives you something on both ends. When guys like Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis got the max, they were generally considered overpaid. But at least they were, y'know, 2-3rd options on their teams when they got their deals.

TT is important on the Cavs, but he'd be utterly irrelevant on any other team. Kind of like a Draymond situation, but more so.

[El Gato Negro]

TT and his agent can take this shit show elsewhere for anything more than the 80 mill supposedly offered. I hope he signs the qualifying has another very average year and has to sign for less than he was offered this year.

[BigTicket]

TT and his agent are being ridiculous. He averaged 8/8 of the bench last year, and will probably average the same next year, how is that worth a max deal ?

He got more playing time in the playoffs because of all the injuries, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly a superstar.

No other team would offer him the kind of money the Cavs are offering.

[Derka]

This is nowhere a near $100 million player. Defensive aptitude and rebounding skill are valued commodities, sure...but he has zero offensive skill to speak of and he's probably not going to start unless the Cavs get whacked with injuries down low again.

Did he seriously turn down $80 million? Fire your agent, son.

[BigTicket]

I think TT is really ****ing himself over here.

His value is high right now because of all the playing time he got in the playoffs, but next summer that will be old history, and he's not going to get nearly as much playing time next year unless both Love and Varejao get injured again. So he will take less money this year, and then re-enter free agency next year when his stock is likely to be much lower ... :facepalm

[DukeDelonte13]

TT is one of the better if not an elite defensive bigmen in the league. You don't have to be a shot blocker to be an elite defender. His lateral quickness, bball IQ and work ethic all factor into his defensive skill. He's extremely versatile on that end of the floor. He doesn't gamble and he knows where to be on the floor. He's a good teammate and hasn't missed a game in over 2 seasons.

with that being said he's not worth more than 80 million in any climate. Rich Paul can go f*ck himself. Rolling the dice by taking the QO is a dumb move.

[RedBlackAttack]

TT is one of the better if not an elite defensive bigmen in the league. You don't have to be a shot blocker to be an elite defender. His lateral quickness, bball IQ and work ethic all factor into his defensive skill. He's extremely versatile on that end of the floor. He doesn't gamble and he knows where to be on the floor. He's a good teammate and hasn't missed a game in over 2 seasons.

with that being said he's not worth more than 80 million in any climate. Rich Paul can go f*ck himself. Rolling the dice by taking the QO is a dumb move.
Spot on.

People pretending like TT isn't a serious piece of this team who supplies an extremely valuable skill set are off base. At the same time, if it's true that Rich Paul turned down $80 million over five years, he's a moron.

If the Cavs had it to do over again, I'm sure they would have signed him last offseason. TT gambled by turning down 4 years, $54 million and it paid off. The Cavs should have countered up to $65 million and this wouldn't be a concern. But everything is always obvious in retrospect.

[PJR]

I think TT is really ****ing himself over here.


Uh yeah, not really.

If he signs the qualifying offer, he'll be an unrestricted free agent right in the midst of the salary cap boom, where 16 teams will have enough space to offer a maximum contract. He will have no shortage of suitors.

The only risk he's taking is that of an injury, otherwise he will be good.

[BigTicket]

Uh yeah, not really.

If he signs the qualifying offer, he'll be an unrestricted free agent right in the midst of the salary cap boom, where 16 teams will have enough space to offer a maximum contract. He will have no shortage of suitors.

The only risk he's taking is that of an injury, otherwise he will be good.

Taking the qualifying offer this year means he'll make about $10M less this year. So he'd need to make that back over the next 4 years, meaning he needs someone to sign him for $80M/4 years just to break even. Which team is going to give him that after a year where he's likely to average 8/8 off the bench ?

[Carbine]

Did you guys even watch the playoffs? He was giving his team extra possession after extra possession after extra possession either by getting the board or creation ya loose ball foul.

He also finishes well around the hoop and while he's not a shot blocker, his defense was very good.

Let me reiterate he did this in the playoffs WHERE IT MATTERS. His impact on the game was tremendous. You could argue he's a better fit alongside LeBron and Kyrie than Love. He's worth the max because guess what? The Cavs get nothing in return if he walks. They just get worse.

This isn't a normal circumstance. Perhaps to another team he's not worth the max, but to the Cavs he 100 percent without question is worth it because the only other alternative is lose him and gain nothing, except Gilbert saving luxury money:

[DukeDelonte13]

Did you guys even watch the playoffs? He was giving his team extra possession after extra possession after extra possession either by getting the board or creation ya loose ball foul.

He also finishes well around the hoop and while he's not a shot blocker, his defense was very good.

Let me reiterate he did this in the playoffs WHERE IT MATTERS. His impact on the game was tremendous. You could argue he's a better fit alongside LeBron and Kyrie than Love. He's worth the max because guess what? The Cavs get nothing in return if he walks. They just get worse.

This isn't a normal circumstance. Perhaps to another team he's not worth the max, but to the Cavs he 100 percent without question is worth it because the only other alternative is lose him and gain nothing, except Gilbert saving luxury money:


not to take anything away from TT because i do think he is a great player, but that was by design. Those grind it out isos with most shots being from close to the basket led to those situations. TT's role was greatly magnified with Love and Kyrie out.

I love TT. I've been a fan of him since he was drafted, but if he take the QO cavs should use him as a chip. Pretty interesting to think what could be had with him especially with the trade exception.

I don't buy into the "you gotta keep Lebron happy" bs. He'll leave if he wants regardless of what the cavs do. I don't think he'll ever leave cleveland again though.

Rich Paul is an ass.

[Carbine]

It was by design? He worked his ass off and wanted it more than the other team.

Design had nothing to do with it. If it were a free flowing offense with a lot of ball movement it would open up MORE uncontested lanes to the rim for rebound chances. He typically had to fight through one defender and sometimes outwork another one to get a rebound.

He was the reason he got all those extra possessions. Had nothing to do with the system.

[PP34Deuce]

One thing I notice about Lebron James is how calculating he is. He and Tristan are friends and share Rich Paul as an agent.

The CAVS committed to Love long term. Lebron and agent have been angling for Tristan to be a CAV forever but they are manipulating the situation. Thomas will most likely take the qualifying offer. If he does, they can go 3 deep at PF, and if they win a championship, Tristan gets his 18 million dollar a year contract (with another team) and Lebron gets his 3rd ring.

CAVS are not going to invest in both Thomas and Love long term like that. They chose Love.

[toneloc103]

39 minutes per game is not realistic at all.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/minutes/sort/avgMinutes

He averaged 11/9 during the 2014 season when he was a starter. I'd say he could bump it up to 13/11/1 with the right perimeter player by his side, which is good from a play you don't expect offense from.


and THAT's worth 100 mil? GTFOH

[Carbine]

It amazes me people judge players by their stats. Like OMG he's a 13/10 player!
That's garbage!

Or when Love was putting up 26/15 or whatever it was he was a "26/15 player"

**** all that. You know why Thompson is a GREAT fit for the Cavs team? Because he IMPACTS the game without needing the ball. This type of player is absolutely critical for a team that has bonafide first and second options who are going to have the ball in their hands 90 percent of the time.

Thompson could have zero points and still have a big impact on the game with his rebounding and overall defense. This isn't an assumption I've seen him do it. I don't think you guys understand how demoralizing an offensive rebound or loose ball fouls are for the defense. He's directly giving his team extra shots and making the defense play defense for even longer.

[toneloc103]

It amazes me people judge players by their stats. Like OMG he's a 13/10 player!
That's garbage!

Or when Love was putting up 26/15 or whatever it was he was a "26/15 player"

**** all that. You know why Thompson is a GREAT fit for the Cavs team? Because he IMPACTS the game without needing the ball. This type of player is absolutely critical for a team that has bonafide first and second options who are going to have the ball in their hands 90 percent of the time.

Thompson could have zero points and still have a big impact on the game with his rebounding and overall defense. This isn't an assumption I've seen him do it. I don't think you guys understand how demoralizing an offensive rebound or loose ball fouls are for the defense. He's directly giving his team extra shots and making the defense play defense for even longer.

Come on man. Be realistic. I have been a cavs fan since 1970 when they came into existence so I am not just tooting the horn of "STATS". having said that, he is not worth 100 mil flat out. He isnt Rodman and he isnt an elite defender regaless of what anyone says here. What he does well is hustle his ass off. The truth is that he is going to come off the bench. He is playing behind Love, no questions asked. Do you play 100 mil for that? I dont think so. You are talking about a very small sample where his value took a quantum leap. He still averaged 8 and 8.....

[Fallen Angel]

The cap is jumping up. The value of a $20M contract is gonna be valued differently than it was before the TV Deal.

All that matters is the percentage of cap a player takes up.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Uh yeah, not really.

If he signs the qualifying offer, he'll be an unrestricted free agent right in the midst of the salary cap boom, where 16 teams will have enough space to offer a maximum contract. He will have no shortage of suitors.

The only risk he's taking is that of an injury, otherwise he will be good.

You realize he's more likely to get SMALLER offers as an UFA than he would if he were a RFA?

Teams aren't going to line up to give an 8/8 bench riding PF a max deal. He's more valuable to the Cavs than any other team in the league and he and Rich Paul are going to find that out the hard way if they keep playing 'hard ball'.

I'm not saying he's a bad player or anything, but not taking this deal is extremely stupid. He gambled on himself last year and it paid off, it is very unwise to do it again.

[D-Wait]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b_Du3cBPTY

Stephen A and Skip doing their best to overhype TT...
Skip said he's worth 94 mill. :lol

[Fallen Angel]

Why are people asking like Tristan Thompson is a career backup PF?

He already has 2 seasons in which he's STARTED all 82 games. The only other two seasons he didn't start majority of the games was his rookie season and the most recent season in which he came of the bench for a Top Three PF in the league.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Cavs Fans, can TT play Full Time center? and is he even a rim protector?

thanks

[DMAVS41]

I don't see the problem. The Cavs have to pay him...it's not even a question at this point. The Cavs without Thompson are a much much much worse team and have almost no ability to fill that void unless they get extremely lucky with that trade exception.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

I don't see the problem. The Cavs have to pay him...it's not even a question at this point. The Cavs without Thompson are a much much much worse team and have almost no ability to fill that void unless they get extremely lucky with that trade exception.

as always lot of BS in ur post

[DMAVS41]

as always lot of BS in ur post

Tell me what you disagree with please.

[pegasus]

Did you guys even watch the playoffs? He was giving his team extra possession after extra possession after extra possession either by getting the board or creation ya loose ball foul.

He also finishes well around the hoop and while he's not a shot blocker, his defense was very good.

Let me reiterate he did this in the playoffs WHERE IT MATTERS. His impact on the game was tremendous. You could argue he's a better fit alongside LeBron and Kyrie than Love. He's worth the max because guess what? The Cavs get nothing in return if he walks. They just get worse.

This isn't a normal circumstance. Perhaps to another team he's not worth the max, but to the Cavs he 100 percent without question is worth it because the only other alternative is lose him and gain nothing, except Gilbert saving luxury money:
This. I can't believe people are arguing his value. Who cares how many max players they already have. That's a Lebron team for you, get used to it. TT is a near-max player, and knowing how the cap will jump in the next two years, he is a max player now.

TT abused the Bulls frontcourt, which was supposedly our strength. And to those who says he's got zero offensive skills, I have seen him finish around the basket both with left and right jump hook shots several times during the playoffs. He definitely has a good touch around the basket. So what if he can't shoot? He is a big and plays like a big.

They'd be stupid not to pay him what he wants after the playoffs he had.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Tell me what you disagree with please.

they just paid 108/5yr contract to their lead PF.
They have any v who is getting paid 10mil/yr
they have to pay Mozgov next summer who is crucial to what they do then TT.

other then getting rebounds what does TT do to get him the 94/5yr?

Lebron can play the PF position and dominate.

[Pointguard]

I have a question. If Tristan Thompson was a starter on another team what would he avg as far as ppg, rbds, FG%. If he got 39 minutes a night
66% of his shots came within three feet of the basket last year. He shot just 36.6% outside of three feet. Talking about a guy that knows how to cover his weaknesses.

"On top of that, Thompson has never po sted a positive box-score plus/minus

[DMAVS41]

they just paid 108/5yr contract to their lead PF.
They have any v who is getting paid 10mil/yr
they have to pay Mozgov next summer who is crucial to what they do then TT.

other then getting rebounds what does TT do to get him the 94/5yr?

Lebron can play the PF position and dominate.

So your argument is just that Dan Gilbert shouldn't spend that money?

Or is it that you think the team will be better off in the long run without paying Thompson?

I think TT is easily more valuable than Mozgov. The NBA is quite clearly moving away from the big centers and Mozgov isn't an offensive force to begin with. He's a good player, but he's not that versatile.

He's also going to be 30 going into his next contract. TT just turned 24.

If the choice is between TT and Mozgov...it's not even a question. The answer is TT.

[Fallen Angel]

Cleveland will have to pay him.

they won't have the money to spend on other free agents so the only real big move they can make is to extend Thompson

[Pointguard]

I said this isn't going to be as easy as it looks from the beginning. Ego's are a major hindrance. The owner can't like Lebron dictating what he does with his money - especially max talk on the third best PF on the team. Love's agent might have said their has to be a limit on TT's minutes if he is to resign. TT puts big pressure on Love, and Love's next contract. If TT demands more minutes, Love's next contract will likely diminish. Unfortunately, TT will exaggerate Love's weaknesses if TT is playing with him or without him. TT is great for the team, not so great for Love.

I don't know if TT can kill on the boards all year long at 35 minutes plus. His numbers fluctuate and aren't consistent yet.

[veilside23]

Blazers would be happy to get TT and it would not be a lemarcus aldridge but its still something .... I don't understand why people think TT is asking for too much money, he is just looking for security its not just about the money. Paul Millsap cant freaking play good defense like TT.

Yes millsap can shoot three's but where was Millsap when the hawks needed him? TT on the other hand played like he was 7'0 tall and made everyone else in the east look like midgets because he destroyed them on the offensive board. TT and his agent means business 2 years from now cap space is going to blow. maybe offer him something like what greg monroe got with the bucks at least.

4 years 60 million is a bargain for a player like TT knowing that cap space will be higher and he isnt freaking amir johnson please.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I hope he does so LeBron can be like :lebroncry: :violin:

[DMAVS41]

I said this isn't going to be as easy as it looks from the beginning. Ego's are a major hindrance. The owner can't like Lebron dictating what he does with his money - especially max talk on the third best PF on the team. Love's agent might have said their has to be a limit on TT's minutes if he is to resign. TT puts big pressure on Love, and Love's next contract. If TT demands more minutes, Love's next contract will likely diminish. Unfortunately, TT will exaggerate Love's weaknesses if TT is playing with him or without him. TT is great for the team, not so great for Love.

I don't know if TT can kill on the boards all year long at 35 minutes plus. His numbers fluctuate and aren't consistent yet.

You also said Love was leaving. And said Love had no reason to sign with the Cavs and that the Cavs shouldn't sign him.

So...

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Also TT has a lot of untapped potential IMO. He can easily be a double double on a bad team.

[Fallen Angel]

Also TT has a lot of untapped potential IMO. He can easily be a double double on a bad team.
He was already a double double machine on a bad team

[Pointguard]

You also said Love was leaving. And said Love had no reason to sign with the Cavs and that the Cavs shouldn't sign him.

So... All of that was contingent on TT getting the max. You are trying to act like I said this in a vacuum.

Love hasn't signed the big deal. I said if TT gets the max, Love doesn't sign long term. No questions asked. TT affects Love's money. Love's agent is watching this very closely. Love did the deal first, I'm pretty sure with some contingencies. TT isn't getting a max deal.

[gasolina]

Toronto must be salivating at the thought of TT becoming a FA. Toronto needs to start attracting free agents if they hope to be the next basketball destination.

Not sure about the fit, but Val, Carroll, and TT would be the real deal defensively. Val can protect the rim and TT is mobile enough to cover stretch fours and chase around rebounds.

[Fallen Angel]

The Raptors RealGM board is mixed on Tristan Thompson.

Some guys want him, others want to preserve their cap for Kevin Durant.

:yaohappy:

[DMAVS41]

All of that was contingent on TT getting the max. You are trying to act like I said this in a vacuum.

Love hasn't signed the big deal. I said if TT gets the max, Love doesn't sign long term. No questions asked. TT affects Love's money. Love's agent is watching this very closely. Love did the deal first, I'm pretty sure with some contingencies. TT isn't getting a max deal.

So your saying that you think Love's agent basically got the Cavs to agree that they won't pay TT the max and will limit his minutes?

I don't know if that is true or not of course...neither do you.

I'd say that is very shortsighted by the Cavs...especially given the relationship Lebron/TT have...if that is true.

[Carbine]

What's the downside of giving TT a max deal?

[DMAVS41]

What's the downside of giving TT a max deal?

Virtually none other than Gilbert having to pay a lot of tax as far as I can see.

I've seen some king of intimate that they have to pay Mozgov after this coming season. I think TT is clearly more valuable than Mozgov on this team both now and long term.

I don't see any downside other than Gilbert's pocket book.

[Carbine]

Virtually none other than Gilbert having to pay a lot of tax as far as I can see.

I've seen some king of intimate that they have to pay Mozgov after this coming season. I think TT is clearly more valuable than Mozgov on this team both now and long term.

I don't see any downside other than Gilbert's pocket book.


Right. Overpaying a player only matters when it hinders your ability to get other players.

We don't care about Gilbert's pocket book. Fans only care about the team.

I'm sure with the cap going up like it is and contracts coming off the books, they can still retain mozgov if they want. Again, it's only money coming out of Gilbert's pocket book.

[NattyPButter]

Virtually none other than Gilbert having to pay a lot of tax as far as I can see.

I've seen some king of intimate that they have to pay Mozgov after this coming season. I think TT is clearly more valuable than Mozgov on this team both now and long term.

I don't see any downside other than Gilbert's pocket book.


Down side is u have a non tradeable contract. Know one would trade for him at that pay.

[DMAVS41]

Down side is u have a non tradeable contract. Know one would trade for him at that pay.

And why would you need to trade him?

I mean...I get the point, but the Cavs are in a very unique situation in terms of team building. All the normal rules are kind of meaningless here.

Yea, if you were building a team in a conventional sense...signing a guy to a contract that is just a straight overpay is bad. So yea...if the Bucks, for example, signed him to a max...I'd think it was stupid.

But the Cavs are in a specific situation where signing him or not signing him doesn't really impact their ability to get better or worse...and they have that trade exception to get better as well if for some reason this doesn't work.

This comes down to Gilbert's money...

From a team building perspective...there is no reason to not retain a 24 year old very good player that fits in very well with the Cavs and in where the NBA is trending in terms of bigs.

[Carbine]

Down side is u have a non tradeable contract. Know one would trade for him at that pay.


Why would they be looking to trade him? They would basically be signing him for his prime years.... And it's almost impossible that lebron would leave Cleveland again. Especially with a good team around him.

Kyrie
Bron
Love
Thompson

That's the core. They will compete for titles as long as those guys are on the team.

Not being able to trade Thompson is not a concern at all.

[NattyPButter]

And why would you need to trade him?

I mean...I get the point, but the Cavs are in a very unique situation in terms of team building. All the normal rules are kind of meaningless here.

Yea, if you were building a team in a conventional sense...signing a guy to a contract that is just a straight overpay is bad. So yea...if the Bucks, for example, signed him to a max...I'd think it was stupid.

But the Cavs are in a specific situation where signing him or not signing him doesn't really impact their ability to get better or worse...and they have that trade exception to get better as well if for some reason this doesn't work.

This comes down to Gilbert's money...

From a team building perspective...there is no reason to not retain a 24 year old very good player that fits in very well with the Cavs and in where the NBA is trending in terms of bigs.

Not to trade him now...but say 2 years from now if things are not working out and the team found a great rookie PF. Now TT contract is toxic and could cripple the team if they need something else. You don't just throw max contracts at average players that's only good at offensive rebounding. Before Lebron came he was getting most of shit shots blocked at the rim and ppl were asking for him to get traded. He hasn't improved at all from his rookie year. He looks the same besides now he'll walk the ball out instead of trying to throw it up right away which he still does. Oh and he changed the hand he shoots with and still. Not much changed. He's just a young Reggie Evans.

[Pointguard]

So your saying that you think Love's agent basically got the Cavs to agree that they won't pay TT the max and will limit his minutes?

I don't know if that is true or not of course...neither do you.

I'd say that is very shortsighted by the Cavs...especially given the relationship Lebron/TT have...if that is true.

We don't know these things... but the agent has to have his own interest going into a meeting where his client is the starter and his sub might get a max deal and his client is in a situation where he could lose out on his max deal. Trust me, the agent said it, but its not like Gilbert has to give it any credence. Depending on his priorities... he listens.

[DMAVS41]

Not to trade him now...but say 2 years from now if things are not working out and the team found a great rookie PF. Now TT contract is toxic and could cripple the team if they need something else. You don't just throw max contracts at average players that's only good at offensive rebounding. Before Lebron came he was getting most of shit shots blocked at the rim and ppl were asking for him to get traded. He hasn't improved at all from his rookie year. He looks the same besides now he'll walk the ball out instead of trying to throw it up right away which he still does. Oh and he changed the hand he shoots with and still. Not much changed. He's just a young Reggie Evans.

Again...that makes sense for team building under normal circumstances.

I'm not even incredibly high on TT, but I think he's better than you are letting on.

However, I don't really follow your scenario. Under your scenario the Cavs have found a young PF that is better for them than TT. So what is the basketball downside again to having TT on this team along with the rookie?

I mean...again...the Cavs essentially have no ability to get better for a long time from the outside. They are going to be over the cap for years. So they really can only get better via the draft and this trade exception they have.

Also, I'm not sure TT even at a full max is a toxic contract. He's 24 years old and the cap is going crazy up in the next couple years. 5 years 94 million...I'm just not sure even that is untradeable. Again...think about the market we just witnessed. Reggie Jackson got 80 million. Dragic got 86 million. Knight got 70 million. Matthews got 70 million over 4 years. At 24...with the cap set to increase like it is....paying TT 19 million a year just isn't a toxic contract given the market imo.

So I'm just not seeing the disaster scenario here by bringing TT back under your hypothetical.

[DMAVS41]

We don't know these things... but the agent has to have his own interest going into a meeting where his client is the starter and his sub might get a max deal and his client is in a situation where he could lose out on his max deal. Trust me, the agent said it, but its not like Gilbert has to give it any credence. Depending on his priorities... he listens.

But the money isn't connected at all though. The Cavs can pay Love and TT the max. Love's agent didn't need to create leverage at all. The Cavs offered Love the max on a long term deal from the jump because it was so smart. Love at the current max for 5 years is a great deal.

So I'm just not seeing why Love's agent would need to do any of the things you are talking about. Love was getting a max offer from the Cavs regardless of what happened or happens with TT.

That is what you seem to not be getting. Love is quite clearly worth a 5 year max. TT might not be. If the Cavs felt like TT was worth the 5 year max and signed him first...they'd still have maxed out Love as well.

The reason this is unfolding with TT is because the Cavs don't view him as a max player. I can't blame them for that, but overpaying him like 20 million over 5 years is way better than letting him go imo.

[Fallen Angel]

"Young Reggie Evans"


Stop it. Just stop it. It's embarrassing how you guys (ESPECIALLY the Cleveland fans) are underrating Tristan Thompson.

[toneloc103]

Not to trade him now...but say 2 years from now if things are not working out and the team found a great rookie PF. Now TT contract is toxic and could cripple the team if they need something else. You don't just throw max contracts at average players that's only good at offensive rebounding. Before Lebron came he was getting most of shit shots blocked at the rim and ppl were asking for him to get traded. He hasn't improved at all from his rookie year. He looks the same besides now he'll walk the ball out instead of trying to throw it up right away which he still does. Oh and he changed the hand he shoots with and still. Not much changed. He's just a young Reggie Evans.

great analogy. not sure why everyone is over valuing this guy like he is the next mailman or something. a nice piece yes, but a cornerstone? No

[DMAVS41]

great analogy. not sure why everyone is over valuing this guy like he is the next mailman or something. a nice piece yes, but a cornerstone? No

Who is saying that though?

I just see a lot of people understanding the circumstances.

I think we all agree that TT isn't worth 19 million a year in a vacuum.

What is he worth to you though...I'm curious?

So what would you pay TT a year?

[Jailblazers7]

I don't know, playing the ultimatum card kinda makes it look like TT and Rich Paul have no leverage and are trying to bluff their way to a max deal.

[toneloc103]

Who is saying that though?

I just see a lot of people understanding the circumstances.

I think we all agree that TT isn't worth 19 million a year in a vacuum.

What is he worth to you though...I'm curious?

So what would you pay TT a year?

I honestly think if he got the same deal as Andy )around 10 mil) that would be FAIR. However I think with todays rates 12-15 would be where I stop at and I think that is too much.

[FatComputerNerd]

Thompson is starting to get underrated. Everyone was shouting during the postseason that Tristan Thompson is gonna get PAID, but now people are backpedaling on that statement.

He's a quality STARTING Power Forward.
He's better than Amir Johnson and way better than Anderson Varejao.
His postseason, alone, was more impressive than Kevin Love's entire regular and short postseason as a Cleveland Cavalier.

Disagree. Healthy Anderson is a far more complete player than Christian Thompson.

Problem is, Andy needs to have his minutes limited, so we need TT to fill in those gaps.

If Andy was a bit younger and less injury prone we'd be fine with him off the bench as our main 4/5, but if he gets hurt again we're fk'ed w/o TT.

[DMAVS41]

I honestly think if he got the same deal as Andy )around 10 mil) that would be FAIR. However I think with todays rates 12-15 would be where I stop at and I think that is too much.

10 million? So a 24 year old versatile big that just proved himself to kind of have another gear in the playoffs/finals...should make 10 million a year in this market?

I feel like there is a level ignorance here on your part both to the current market and to TT's ability.

Thad Young just got 12.5 million a year...

And saying that is a bad contract is fine, but the problem is that the market is what it is. And at the number you suggest....you are basically just arguing that no team should sign TT.

And that is fine, but that goes back to the Cavs being in a unique position where overpaying him really doesn't impact anything other than Gilbert.

[Fallen Angel]

The problem was re-signing Kevin Love when you can get his production way cheaper than the contract he signed for.

[Pointguard]

But the money isn't connected at all though. The Cavs can pay Love and TT the max. Love's agent didn't need to create leverage at all. The Cavs offered Love the max on a long term deal from the jump because it was so smart. Love at the current max for 5 years is a great deal.

So I'm just not seeing why Love's agent would need to do any of the things you are talking about. Love was getting a max offer from the Cavs regardless of what happened or happens with TT.

That is what you seem to not be getting. Love is quite clearly worth a 5 year max. TT might not be. If the Cavs felt like TT was worth the 5 year max and signed him first...they'd still have maxed out Love as well.

The reason this is unfolding with TT is because the Cavs don't view him as a max player. I can't blame them for that, but overpaying him like 20 million over 5 years is way better than letting him go imo.

Long term contracts are done for security sake. Like depending on the place you decided to play. Now if Love had a no trade contract he wouldn't worry about TT much at all. But without that he has no security with a young upstart that has the same contract as him, and a game that just might be more suited for the playoffs. It becomes a career move with a guy that does your job, is younger, and by nature wants your position. If TT improves Love has to worry about being traded for the next 5 years along with his value decreasing. Sure Love should remain a better player but why volunteer to put yourself in a compromised situation.

Why do you think Love rejected the 5 year max? There's obviously more than what meets the eye. I imagine next year the super max contracts start? What maybe 20 teams under the cap and a few super free agents.

What could go wrong in one year? Injuries, or how about a max player demanding more playing time at the same position! and Love losing out on his max contract. So yes better for his agent to use his leverage to prevent the most likely scenario from ever happening. Love's interest are his interest, that's why he took the 1 year deal most likely with the leverage that he's coming back to be the man with a much bigger and better max deal. TT interest are his interest and that's why he wants the max. Gilbert's interest are his interest. Its three different directions but each decision affects the other.

Give me everything you know about politics: Do you really think TT is going to be a max player before Love is??? Gilbert and Love's agent knew what they were doing.

[gasolina]

The Raptors RealGM board is mixed on Tristan Thompson.

Some guys want him, others want to preserve their cap for Kevin Durant.

:yaohappy:
I know player mvmt has been crazy lately but if Durant is leaving then probably for Washington.

Unless the current raptors magically make it to the ECF and make them that desirable.

Awkward for the Cavs and TT. Unlikely especially w/ having the same agent as le 2/6, but this could turn messy.

Does any other team have capspace remaining?

[toneloc103]

10 million? So a 24 year old versatile big that just proved himself to kind of have another gear in the playoffs/finals...should make 10 million a year in this market?

I feel like there is a level ignorance here on your part both to the current market and to TT's ability.

Thad Young just got 12.5 million a year...

And saying that is a bad contract is fine, but the problem is that the market is what it is. And at the number you suggest....you are basically just arguing that no team should sign TT.

And that is fine, but that goes back to the Cavs being in a unique position where overpaying him really doesn't impact anything other than Gilbert.

I recon name calling solves the problem. I guess you are going to be the next GM of a team....its very easy to throw around money when it isnt yours. He has not proven himself. that is a small sample size. he would not have the same stats/production if he was a starting pf. People keep saying portland. After LA, they would run his non scoring ass out of there with the quickness. Toronto? same thing. folks bag about Amir, but he is a much better scorer than thompson will ever be. He is a garbage man plain and simple. This is coming from a fan. i love the guy, but no need to overpay. Ignorant?...hardly bro

[DMAVS41]

I recon name calling solves the problem. I guess you are going to be the next GM of a team....its very easy to throw around money when it isnt yours. He has not proven himself. that is a small sample size. he would not have the same stats/production if he was a starting pf. People keep saying portland. After LA, they would run his non scoring ass out of there with the quickness. Toronto? same thing. folks bag about Amir, but he is a much better scorer than thompson will ever be. He is a garbage man plain and simple. This is coming from a fan. i love the guy, but no need to overpay. Ignorant?...hardly bro

Saying:

"there is a level of ignorance"

Is not name calling.

I'm sorry, but someone saying TT is worth 10 million a year in this market is ignorant to the reality of where the NBA is and where it is heading in terms of contracts.

And I'm not "throwing around money"

I have no problem with Gilbert if he says he doesn't want to pay that much tax.

I'm talking about the basketball side of this. Other than money...what is the reason the Cavs shouldn't sign TT? I don't see anyone offering anything here.

[DMAVS41]

Long term contracts are done for security sake. Like depending on the place you decided to play. Now if Love had a no trade contract he wouldn't worry about TT much at all. But without that he has no security with a young upstart that has the same contract as him, and a game that just might be more suited for the playoffs. It becomes a career move with a guy that does your job, is younger, and by nature wants your position. If TT improves Love has to worry about being traded for the next 5 years along with his value decreasing. Sure Love should remain a better player but why volunteer to put yourself in a compromised situation.

Why do you think Love rejected the 5 year max? There's obviously more than what meets the eye. I imagine next year the super max contracts start? What maybe 20 teams under the cap and a few super free agents.

What could go wrong in one year? Injuries, or how about a max player demanding more playing time at the same position! and Love losing out on his max contract. So yes better for his agent to use his leverage to prevent the most likely scenario from ever happening. Love's interest are his interest, that's why he took the 1 year deal most likely with the leverage that he's coming back to be the man with a much bigger and better max deal. TT interest are his interest and that's why he wants the max. Gilbert's interest are his interest. Its three different directions but each decision affects the other.

Give me everything you know about politics: Do you really think TT is going to be a max player before Love is??? Gilbert and Love's agent knew what they were doing.

What?

Kevin Love signed for 5 years.

I've been out of pocket for a while, am I missing something? Did they change the terms of Love's deal?

[RedBlackAttack]

The problem was re-signing Kevin Love when you can get his production way cheaper than the contract he signed for.
So why don't you explain to everyone how the Cavs could have gotten Love's production "way cheaper" with something else. I'm genuinely curious.

[Pointguard]

What?

Kevin Love signed for 5 years.

I've been out of pocket for a while, am I missing something? Did they change the terms of Love's deal?
You are right, that's me being out of the loop.

Tristian isn't getting a max. Shouldn't be that way but I highly doubt it.

[Fallen Angel]

So why don't you explain to everyone how the Cavs could have gotten Love's production "way cheaper" with something else. I'm genuinely curious.
Ryan Anderson can give you 15 points per game, 7 rebounds per game, and 2 threes made per game, he can because he's done it before with Orlando.

Spencer Hawes can give you 13 points per game, 8 rebounds per game, and over 1 three per game, he can because he's done it two seasons ago.

You don't have to be an All-Star to give you what Kevin Love gave the Cavaliers.

[RedBlackAttack]

Ryan Anderson can give you 15 points per game, 7 rebounds per game, and 2 threes made per game, he can because he's done it before with Orlando.

Spencer Hawes can give you 13 points per game, 8 rebounds per game, and over 1 three per game, he can because he's done it two seasons ago.

You don't have to be an All-Star to give you what Kevin Love gave the Cavaliers.
Let's say that everything you claim is true regarding Ryan Anderson and Spencer Hawes being able to "easily replace" all of the things Kevin Love does.... I'm not even going to debate it, even though it's crazy (Hawes played for the Cavs and I saw him up close and personal). But, let's accept it as fact just so I can get to the more important question...

How do you suppose the Cavs acquire either of those guys?

[DMAVS41]

Let's say that everything you claim is true regarding Ryan Anderson and Spencer Hawes being able to "easily replace" all of the things Kevin Love does.... I'm not even going to debate it, even though it's crazy (Hawes played for the Cavs and I saw him up close and personal). But, let's accept it as fact just so I can get to the more important question...

How do you suppose the Cavs acquire either of those guys?


I'm getting so tired of people not getting this. I get that the cap is hard to understand and I certainly don't know it all like an expert or anything, but this case is so simple.

The Cavs don't have cap whether they signed Love or not to get the guys above.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Why haven't any other teams met with him or offered him a contract?

I would think somebody much like the Blazers would sign Thompson to a big contract to force the hand of the Cavs.

[Fallen Angel]

Let's say that everything you claim is true regarding Ryan Anderson and Spencer Hawes being able to "easily replace" all of the things Kevin Love does.... I'm not even going to debate it, even though it's crazy (Hawes played for the Cavs and I saw him up close and personal). But, let's accept it as fact just so I can get to the more important question...

How do you suppose the Cavs acquire either of those guys?
They had the assets to trade for a player at the beginning of the offseason.

Right To Kevin Love
Rights To Iman Shumpert
Brendan Haywood

I think either team (Clippers at that time and Pelicans) would at the least be interested in a trade involving a defensive wing like Shumpert.

[DMAVS41]

They had the assets to trade for a player at the beginning of the offseason.

Right To Kevin Love
Rights To Iman Shumpert
Brendan Haywood

I think either team (Clippers at that time and Pelicans) would at the least be interested in a trade involving a defensive wing like Shumpert.

And they could have made a trade by not trading Love as well though.

[RedBlackAttack]

[/B]

I'm getting so tired of people not getting this. I get that the cap is hard to understand and I certainly don't know it all like an expert or anything, but this case is so simple.

The Cavs don't have cap whether they signed Love or not to get the guys above.
I can understand that people don't necessarily know by heart the cap situation for every team in the league, but this has been such a big topic of conversation with so many people on the street and even in the media... and they just don't seem to want to understand.

To put it as straight forward as humanly possible... the Cavs only avenue to acquire a player on the level of Kevin Love or even Ryan Anderson was by owning his Bird rights. They couldn't just let Love walk and use that money to sign someone else, because they were already over the cap. They couldn't sign-and-trade Love for some other player, because you can't S&T when you've gone above the tax apron.

All of this is so completely obvious, yet no one seems to care. Saying they overpaid for Kevin Love because they could have had Ryan Anderson is to completely misunderstand the Cavs' cap situation.


Completely unrelated to the impossibility of doing it is this... Kevin Love is 26 and he just signed a five year deal. People are incredibly short-sighted about Love and what his signing means in the longterm for the Cavs. Let's say for whatever reason Love is marginalized with LeBron on the court next year and it continues to be an issue... LeBron is going to be less and less dominant as the years pass and the offensive torch will slowly pass to Kyrie and Love.

Signing both Kyrie and Love to max deals just before the cap explodes meant being a relevant team for the foreseeable future. And, both were no-brainers.

[DMAVS41]

I can understand that people don't necessarily know by heart the cap situation for every team in the league, but this has been such a big topic of conversation with so many people on the street and even in the media... and they just don't seem to want to understand.

To put it as straight forward as humanly possible... the Cavs only avenue to acquire a player on the level of Kevin Love or even Ryan Anderson was by owning his Bird rights. They couldn't just let Love walk and use that money to sign someone else, because they were already over the cap. They couldn't sign-and-trade Love for some other player, because you can't S&T when you've gone above the tax apron.

All of this is so completely obvious, yet no one seems to care. Saying they overpaid for Kevin Love because they could have had Ryan Anderson is to completely misunderstand the Cavs' cap situation.


Completely unrelated to the impossibility of doing it is this... Kevin Love is 25 and he just signed a five year deal. People are incredibly short-sighted about Love and what his signing means in the longterm for the Cavs. Let's say for whatever reason Love is marginalized with LeBron on the court next year and it continues to be an issue... LeBron is going to be less and less dominant as the years pass and the offensive torch will slowly pass to Kyrie and Love.

Signing both Kyrie and Love to max deals just before the cap explodes meant being a relevant team for the foreseeable future. And, both were no-brainers.

Which again is why the TT stuff is overblown. Yes, he might not be worth 5 years 94 million, but the Cavs have no ability to get better from the outside.

Most fans probably think the Cavs can spend 94 million on another player...and that just isn't the case of course.

I keep hearing that TT is delusional for asking for whatever he is...etc.

But I'd like to know what people actually think he's worth on a 5 year deal.

Like...given the market...at minimum I think he's worth 75 million on a 5 year deal.

So we are arguing about 19 million over 5 years really...unless someone can present arguments as to why TT isn't at least a 15 million dollar a year player going forward.

And given the circumstances, I've yet to see any present such arguments that TT at age 24 isn't worth 15 million a year for 5 years.

[RedBlackAttack]

They had the assets to trade for a player at the beginning of the offseason.

Right To Kevin Love
Rights To Iman Shumpert
Brendan Haywood

I think either team (Clippers at that time and Pelicans) would at the least be interested in a trade involving a defensive wing like Shumpert.
The Cavs' cap hold for 2015-16 at the start of the offseason was $91 million. Since they were above the tax line and cap apron, sign-and-trades were not legal under the rules of the current CBA.

So again, that was not a possible maneuver, even if they foolishly wanted to give up an Olympian and their best perimeter defender (both of whom are 26 or under) and the contract that eventually led to a $12 million TPE. I hope they were getting Anthony Davis in return for that haul.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Why haven't any other teams met with him or offered him a contract?

I would think somebody much like the Blazers would sign Thompson to a big contract to force the hand of the Cavs.
Seems like teams could give him an offer sheet, but if the Cavs didn't match, then they'd be stuck paying TT max money

[DMAVS41]

Seems like teams could give him an offer sheet, but if the Cavs didn't match, then they'd be stuck paying TT max money

I think Portland would be stupid not to offer TT max money with a player option on the last year. Maybe a 3 year max with a player option in year 3.

The Blazers would still not be great this year....but would really have the chance to have a 1 year rebuild with an incredibly bright future with the team they have in place.

I don't understand why they would do it with Kanter and not TT. They'd actually want TT to not be matched.

[NattyPButter]

Which again is why the TT stuff is overblown. Yes, he might not be worth 5 years 94 million, but the Cavs have no ability to get better from the outside.

Most fans probably think the Cavs can spend 94 million on another player...and that just isn't the case of course.

I keep hearing that TT is delusional for asking for whatever he is...etc.

But I'd like to know what people actually think he's worth on a 5 year deal.

Like...given the market...at minimum I think he's worth 75 million on a 5 year deal.

So we are arguing about 19 million over 5 years really...unless someone can present arguments as to why TT isn't at least a 15 million dollar a year player going forward.

And given the circumstances, I've yet to see any present such arguments that TT at age 24 isn't worth 15 million a year for 5 years.

ahh...ppl including myself gave reason why he's not worth 19 million. 15 million is an OK number but I would still go a little lower. On top of that the tax penalty. I don't care if he's 24 he doesn't do anything besides rebounding and is only 2 years younger then love. When he's not getting rebounds he's freaking completely useless on the court. It's not your money so of course you don't care to just throw money around like it's nothing. I'm looking at it as if i'm the GM of the team. You need to have assets to make moves and giving out ridiculous toxic contracts to one of them that is not even close to an All Star player is straight nutz. He's not even going to get that amount from any team. No team is gonna screw themselves paying a guy that plays mostly out of position 94mill just to screw themselves in the future.

[Lebron23]

This guy thinks very highly of himself. Only reason his value is high because Love and Varejao are both injury prones.

[DMAVS41]

ahh...ppl including myself gave reason why he's not worth 19 million. 15 million is an OK number but I would still go a little lower. On top of that the tax penalty. I don't care if he's 24 he doesn't do anything besides rebounding and is only 2 years younger then love. When he's not getting rebounds he's freaking completely useless on the court. It's not your money so of course you don't care to just throw money around like it's nothing. I'm looking at it as if i'm the GM of the team. You need to have assets to make moves and giving out ridiculous toxic contracts to one of them that is not even close to an All Star player is straight nutz. He's not even going to get that amount from any team. No team is gonna screw themselves paying a guy that plays mostly out of position 94mill just to screw themselves in the future.

So....you'd rather have nothing on the Cavs (again...they can't add someone else...they have no ability to add to the roster in free agency as they'll be over the cap) than overpay TT 19 million extra over 5 years?

The tax is a valid argument if the concern is Dan Gilbert's net worth. Meaning...if Gilbert were making that argument...I'd think it was valid.

A fan though...doesn't strike me as relevant. I'm assuming you'd rather have TT than not have TT...and the salary really just doesn't matter here because the Cavs are in such a unique position.

[Fallen Angel]

>best skill is rebounding
>he's only a rebounder

[Carbine]

Didn't the Cavs go from from of the most average defenses (maybe they were worse than average I can't recall) to an elite defense with TT in place of Love?

I'm not saying TT is a all NBA first team defender but people saying he's only a
Rebounder have no clue. His defensive ability is pretty damn good, which is key when you're a big man.

[NattyPButter]

So....you'd rather have nothing on the Cavs (again...they can't add someone else...they have no ability to add to the roster in free agency as they'll be over the cap) than overpay TT 19 million extra over 5 years?

The tax is a valid argument if the concern is Dan Gilbert's net worth. Meaning...if Gilbert were making that argument...I'd think it was valid.

A fan though...doesn't strike me as relevant. I'm assuming you'd rather have TT than not have TT...and the salary really just doesn't matter here because the Cavs are in such a unique position.

Yeah and as GM you better be not costing the owner money or you'll lose your job. Also from what i'm hearing with him signing the QO the cavs would be under the tax. I call his bluff because no team is gonna pay him that much. There is no unique position in fawking up your team in the long run with very little assets. You're the only one here saying give him 19 mill so either you're trolling or just horrible with money management. He better sign what ever they are offering, because if he goes into the season and get's seriously injured he just lost himself a crap load of money.

[NattyPButter]

Didn't the Cavs go from from of the most average defenses (maybe they were worse than average I can't recall) to an elite defense with TT in place of Love?

I'm not saying TT is a all NBA first team defender but people saying he's only a
Rebounder have no clue. His defensive ability is pretty damn good, which is key when you're a big man.

No the teams defense was horrible because they had no rim protection in AV or TT. They also needed a permeter defender. They got that in Shump and got a rim protector in Mozgov. That's when the defense became good. TT defence is OK to say it's pretty damn good shows you have no clue and havn't been watching him play for the last few years and just watched the playoffs. He gets bullied in the paint by other PF and centers and can't really block shots. He loses his man a lot too.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah and as GM you better be not costing the owner money or you'll lose your job. Also from what i'm hearing with him signing the QO the cavs would be under the tax. I call his bluff because no team is gonna pay him that much. There is no unique position in fawking up your team in the long run with very little assets. You're the only one here saying give him 19 mill so either you're trolling or just horrible with money management.

Sigh...I swear people don't even read on here anymore.

I have already said if the argument is only about money...then it's valid that Gilbert wouldn't want to spend the money.

But that is Gilbert. I don't think you are getting this. Whether they pay Thompson 94 million or 75 million is not relevant to the team in any way other than saving Gilbert money on tax.

That is why I asked you.

You said you'd probably be willing to pay him 15 million a year. And I asked you if you had the choice to pay him 19 million a year or let him walk...what would you do? I'm assuming you are saying you'd let him walk...and again, that is fine if you are overly concerned with Gilbert's money.

But they aren't improving the team from the outside whether they sign TT or let him go. They'll be over the cap this year and next year and beyond...

So it's not like they free space up to sign someone else.

Just don't think you get it.

[bobopenguin]

Sigh...I swear people don't even read on here anymore.

I have already said if the argument is only about money...then it's valid that Gilbert wouldn't want to spend the money.

But that is Gilbert. I don't think you are getting this. Whether they pay Thompson 94 million or 75 million is not relevant to the team in any way other than saving Gilbert money on tax.


u just dont take that otuside the context. U cannot start the debate assuming boss will/will not pay. u should take all consideration.

the most basic and fundamental:
Love is better than TT, he will play for 35min+
Mozgov locked on C for 35min.
u dont need a 18mil back up PF, whom now might wants 30min playing time if big contract is given.

u can always find a serviceable PF.
u have to have balance the player/ability/production/money.

OKC had to let Harden go cos he was too expensive. now, TT is asking way too much.

[Cocaine80s]

Didn't the Cavs go from from of the most average defenses (maybe they were worse than average I can't recall) to an elite defense with TT in place of Love?

I'm not saying TT is a all NBA first team defender but people saying he's only a
Rebounder have no clue. His defensive ability is pretty damn good, which is key when you're a big man.
No its was Mozgov and Shumpert

[G-train]

Love is better than TT, he will play for 35min+ Love is simply different and his skills cost more, and he is injury prone.

Mozgov locked on C for 35min. Mozgov is far from proven and needs to be consistent for another season.

u dont need a 18mil back up PF, whom now might wants 30min playing time if big contract is given. He's a starting power forward/centre playing a role that they can't win a title without.

[bdreason]

Gilbert obviously doesn't wanna pay him the money, or he would already be signed. I think Cavs fans are underestimating how much money it's going to cost Gilbert to sign a guy $15-20 million over the luxury. As a fan it's easy to say, "oh it's just money, he's got money"... but we're talking about A LOT of money here. I don't care how rich Gilbert is, essentially paying a guy $35 million per year (salary + tax penalty) to come off the bench is borderline insane.


I also think it's interesting nobody else is offering Thompson anything, or at least anything he's willing to sign. Why exactly should the Cavs feel obligated to overpay? Honestly, if I were Gilbert, I would just offer Thompson the qualifying offer, and let him walk next season if he wants.

[bdreason]

Cavs also need to worry about the future. Are they gonna pay TT this year, and then give Mozgov $20+ million after next season? They'll be in the same position next off-season where they can't sign anyone but their own players. Then you have LeBron due to make almost $40m per year. Cavs gonna be team overpaid. :oldlol:

[bobopenguin]

Love is simply different and his skills cost more, and he is injury prone.
Mozgov is far from proven and needs to be consistent for another season.
He's a starting power forward/centre playing a role that they can't win a title without.

- that does not change the fact Love is getting 35min+, there's no way u paid this guy 100mil and ask him to play less time during his prime. u are hurting his stats and production and contribution to the team.

-if u put TT on C, what about Varejao? and rim/paint protection? and u stated mozgov needs to be consistent, but putting TT on C, u are taking away his playing time. He will not do that at his contract year.

-u cant put TT on C while love is shooting beyond arc.. who's gonna defend inside? again, he's not starting over Love. even asking TT to start over Mozgov is crazy. This guy is a backup in this current roaster.

[Clifton]

the most basic and fundamental:
Love is better than TT, he will play for 35min+
Mozgov locked on C for 35min.
u dont need a 18mil back up PF, whom now might wants 30min playing time if big contract is given.
Signing TT would allow the Cavs to keep Love's and Mozgov's minutes down, which is to their benefit. If Love and Mozgov both play 32 minutes per game, that leaves 32 minutes for Thompson.

Thompson's fit on this team, and the chemistry he has with Lebron, is awesome. Always looking for lobs and offensive boards, energy plays. On a roster like the Cavs, that's vital. He's nowhere near as good as Rodman, but he can be Lebron's Rodman. They need to keep him.

But he needs not to be so greedy. He's prolonging this so much it could cause personnel problems once he does sign.

[El Gato Negro]

I hate to break this to some but for those saying the cavs have no way to get better, after this year the cavs own all their first round pics going forward. You can replace TT in the draft after this year if he wants to walk.

[El Gato Negro]

Didn't the Cavs go from from of the most average defenses (maybe they were worse than average I can't recall) to an elite defense with TT in place of Love?

I'm not saying TT is a all NBA first team defender but people saying he's only a
Rebounder have no clue. His defensive ability is pretty damn good, which is key when you're a big man.
Love was a better defender this year when he was on the court and the stats back it up .

[El Gato Negro]

Cavs also need to worry about the future. Are they gonna pay TT this year, and then give Mozgov $20+ million after next season? They'll be in the same position next off-season where they can't sign anyone but their own players. Then you have LeBron due to make almost $40m per year. Cavs gonna be team overpaid. :oldlol:
Wow you clearly have no understanding of how this works lol.

[DukeDelonte13]

Love was a better defender this year when he was on the court and the stats back it up .


there really are no defensive metrics that accurately measure how good a player is defensively. Too much to account for.

Saying Love was a better defender than TT proves that those stats your are looking at suck balls.

[r15mohd]

didn't got thru the pages but the Cavs have a problem with this TT situation, however it's a good problem....whether he stays or walks, I don't see it hurting the Cavs one bit to be honest

if TT stays, great! the post is even more solidified with his rebounding prowess. offensively he lacks, he couldn't buy a put back all Finals long which brought even more hurt to the already ailing Cavs.

if he walks, still good to great. you have a trio of Moz/Love/AndyV up front, and sometimes Lebron at PF too. this is by no means a weak or hurting front court, the only concern is remaining healthy. AndyV can be almost as good as TT is on the boards, and does have a good offensive touch to him and is VERY great in the PnR's with Lebron.

stay or walk...the Cavs still reign.

[DMAVS41]

u just dont take that otuside the context. U cannot start the debate assuming boss will/will not pay. u should take all consideration.

the most basic and fundamental:
Love is better than TT, he will play for 35min+
Mozgov locked on C for 35min.
u dont need a 18mil back up PF, whom now might wants 30min playing time if big contract is given.

u can always find a serviceable PF.
u have to have balance the player/ability/production/money.

OKC had to let Harden go cos he was too expensive. now, TT is asking way too much.

But that is all this is about. Whether or not the boss wants to pay. The team is in virtually the same place in terms of the cap and ability to add players whether they pay TT, pay TT 75 million, or pay TT 94 million.

So when you say "u can always find a serviceable PF"...how are they doing that? The only means they have is the trade exception they have...and they have that with TT or not with TT.

I think you also really ignore where the NBA is headed. Mozgov has some issues that certain teams will really exploit. Having a versatile player like TT is really important going forward imo.

Again, the Cavs are in a very unique situation. Balancing the pay/performance really doesn't matter at all unless we are talking about Gilbert's money.

Like...would you be okay with the Cavs paying TT 14 million a year for 5 years? I mean...that is absolutely under his market value and a great contract...so would you be okay with that?

If so, I don't see how, given these specific circumstances, one could care about paying him 5 more million a year when the only issue facing the team would be an increased tax penalty.

Having Lebron, Kyrie, Love, Andy, and Shumpert taking up so much of the cap....like 80 plus million. You just aren't going to be able to do much. And you have to pay Mozgov next summer as well. So whether the Cavs do this TT thing or not...they aren't going to be able to get better without making trades or in the draft.

And who are you trading for and how much salary do you have to take on...and is that player remotely in the ball park of a 24 year old versatile big that fits in perfectly with your core of the team?

Again...under normal circumstances I'd tell TT to take a hike at the max. But the combination of this absurd player market and the Cavs unique circumstances....it's a no brainer to retain him unless Gilbert doesn't want to pay the tax.

It's as simple as that.

[kshutts1]

Again...under normal circumstances I'd tell TT to take a hike at the max. But the combination of this absurd player market and the Cavs unique circumstances....it's a no brainer to retain him unless Gilbert doesn't want to pay the tax.

It's as simple as that.
I agree with that, but length of contract matters. I wouldn't pay TT a max deal for max length... but I'd do it for 2 years. Two years, 40 million (or whatever it would amount to for him). Still an overpay, but doesn't hurt any potential long-term flexibility.

[PP34Deuce]

didn't got thru the pages but the Cavs have a problem with this TT situation, however it's a good problem....whether he stays or walks, I don't see it hurting the Cavs one bit to be honest

if TT stays, great! the post is even more solidified with his rebounding prowess. offensively he lacks, he couldn't buy a put back all Finals long which brought even more hurt to the already ailing Cavs.

if he walks, still good to great. you have a trio of Moz/Love/AndyV up front, and sometimes Lebron at PF too. this is by no means a weak or hurting front court, the only concern is remaining healthy. AndyV can be almost as good as TT is on the boards, and does have a good offensive touch to him and is VERY great in the PnR's with Lebron.

stay or walk...the Cavs still reign.

I agree. It's like People forget when you have Lebron James on your team, he can be your 1,3, or 4 at a high level. Andy V, even for 10 minutes a game allows a good spell.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with that, but length of contract matters. I wouldn't pay TT a max deal for max length... but I'd do it for 2 years. Two years, 40 million (or whatever it would amount to for him). Still an overpay, but doesn't hurt any potential long-term flexibility.

Ideally? Of course.

But this team is pretty much locked in regardless for the next 4 years...especially if Mozgov is being brought back.

They have no cap space this year. And I really don't see how they'll have any flexibility after that with Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Shumpert, Andy, and Mozgov taking up pretty much all of the cap. I just don't see how this flexibility is happening unless they make a bunch of trades...which they could do with or without TT.

So I think they are pretty much just locked into not having flexibility for the next 4 years or so regardless. So it seems to me that worst case scenario is that you'd have a large expiring contract on the books in the first year it might be a negative.

[RedBlackAttack]

Cavs also need to worry about the future. Are they gonna pay TT this year, and then give Mozgov $20+ million after next season? They'll be in the same position next off-season where they can't sign anyone but their own players. Then you have LeBron due to make almost $40m per year. Cavs gonna be team overpaid. :oldlol:
I'd say signing the majority of the young core of your team (Irving, Love, Shumpert and possibly TT) to long contracts the year before the cap completely explodes is pretty wise, actually. Even if TT gets, let's say, $15-18 million a year, that is going to be far from a max contract a couple years from now.

When the "new normal" hits and $15 million contracts are being handed out the way $10 million contracts are now, people won't be looking at the Cavs as "team overpay"... quite the opposite in fact. That's the main reason I was so happy Love signed longterm. Everyone expected him to go short specifically because of the cap explosion soon to come.

It's also the reason I'm hoping this TT thing gets resolved this offseason, because if it spills over into next year, we are probably going to be paying more. Yes, the good part is that the luxury tax threshold is also going to rise with it, but a couple years from now, no one will blink at a $16 million deal.

The Warriors are going to have to deal with it in the next couple years. Klay and Green are the only guys signed through 2017, right? Curry has, what? One more year before he is going to want to extend? God only knows what that is going to cost... probably closer to $30 million a year than $20 million.

A couple years from now, I predict Irving and Love will have two of the best value contracts in the league with the money that will be thrown around.

[midatlantic09]

The Cavs are doing the right thing by not offering him a huge deal. He's a hustle/energy guy and shouldn't be getting anything close to a max deal. He's a replaceable type of player.

[HurricaneKid]

Ideally? Of course.

But this team is pretty much locked in regardless for the next 4 years...especially if Mozgov is being brought back.

They have no cap space this year. And I really don't see how they'll have any flexibility after that with Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Shumpert, Andy, and Mozgov taking up pretty much all of the cap. I just don't see how this flexibility is happening unless they make a bunch of trades...which they could do with or without TT.

So I think they are pretty much just locked into not having flexibility for the next 4 years or so regardless. So it seems to me that worst case scenario is that you'd have a large expiring contract on the books in the first year it might be a negative.

Every single one of those contracts you speak of is a VERY TEAM FRIENDLY contract. They would all be highly sought after trade pieces. Paying well above market value for a player locks you into that player long term. And when that player is a an energy tweener who is awful from >5 ft, provides no rim protection, etc his value simply isn't anywhere NEAR the proposed contract.

Having all of your contracts being team friendly is not only important for tax issues but also for team building.

If KLove hadn't gotten hurt and TT had signed a 4/40 deal people would have thought he was overpaid based on his contributions. He played well in Love's place but he didn't play THAT well.

[DMAVS41]

Every single one of those contracts you speak of is a VERY TEAM FRIENDLY contract. They would all be highly sought after trade pieces. Paying well above market value for a player locks you into that player long term. And when that player is a an energy tweener who is awful from >5 ft, provides no rim protection, etc his value simply isn't anywhere NEAR the proposed contract.

Having all of your contracts being team friendly is not only important for tax issues but also for team building.

If KLove hadn't gotten hurt and TT had signed a 4/40 deal people would have thought he was overpaid based on his contributions. He played well in Love's place but he didn't play THAT well.

I don't think Shump and Any are team friendly contracts at all....I don't think many teams would be willing to trade for them.

How much would you pay TT in a vacuum?

How much would you pay TT if you were the Cavs?

[HurricaneKid]

A few things:

1. Shumpert and Andy are absolutely not valuable trade pieces on their contracts.

2. Like I have said repeatedly...the normal rules just don't apply here because of the unique situation the Cavs are in. Why on earth would they be worried about signing TT to a trade friendly contract when whether they sign him or not...they aren't creating cap space? You aren't making that signing to trade him down the road.

3. So just to get this straight. You would rather not have TT than have TT. Right? Because any team is going to pay him 15 million or more in this market. He'll get that somewhere. So it sounds like you guys just don't want him on any team. Which is fine, but that again ignores the Cavs situation which is the same with or without him in terms of getting better.

Andy is obv not. Thats what happens when you have a substantial injury right after you sign a new deal. But 10M for a starting G over the next 4 is fine. I think Shump's deal will look pretty good in 2-3 years.

Well first off, money is ALWAYS a concern. Its one thing to overpay a guy to keep continuity. Its another thing to overpay by a massive amount PLUS have enormous tax expenditures. The difference just NEXT YEAR between the 6.8M QO and his proposed deal is about 30M in salary/tax to the Cavs. And yes, 30M is a lot to anyone.

As long as injuries don't plague the team like they did last year how many min do you think are really going to go to TT? KLove, while he had a rough season, was miles better. He gets 32 min+. And while LeBron doesn't love the 4 he needs to play there more when other teams go small. Thats far fewer min left for TT. And if he is signed to 5/94 what does Mozzy get next year? 25M? Mozzy is far more vital to the team IMO.

Your "logic" has to have some end point. Sure, Cle is better with him on the team. But how much better? Who else in the league pays 18M for a 15min/gm player? Even with salaries exploding, that is just not going to happen. They are probably better by having Delly too. If Delly had balked at the deal he ended up with should they have offered him a max deal too?

[bdreason]

Because any team is going to pay him 15 million or more in this market. He'll get that somewhere.


He's a (R) Free Agent right now. Where are all these 15m per year offers from other teams?

There are teams out there that could sign TT and play him 30+ minutes per game, and even they aren't offering him $15m per.

[r15mohd]

He's a (R) Free Agent right now. Where are all these 15m per year offers from other teams?

There are teams out there that could sign TT and play him 30+ minutes per game, and even they aren't offering him $15m per.


i don't think he's been taking any team offers prior to this new info...or at least it seemed that way

[bdreason]

i don't think he's been taking any team offers prior to this new info...or at least it seemed that way


An agent who is desperately looking for leverage to get his player a max contract isn't talking to other teams? Sounds plausible.


If TT wants a max contract, all he has to do is sign an offer sheet from another team for a max deal, and force Cleveland to match. And according to people in this thread, there are tons of teams dying to give TT a max deal, since it "won't look that bad in a few years". :oldlol:

[Carbine]

So much ignorance in this thread.

Projected salary cap of 107 million in two years. It's 70 million right now.

That's a 2/3rd total increase in total cap.

Paying Tristan Thompson 20 million a year at the new projected cap will be the equilivent of paying him like 12 million now.

[fiddy]

So much ignorance in this thread.

Projected salary cap of 107 million in two years. It's 70 million right now.

That's a 2/3rd total increase in total cap.

Paying Tristan Thompson 20 million a year at the new projected cap will be the equilivent of paying him like 12 million now.
Both ways=overpay

[Carbine]

Both ways=overpay

What does it matter if he's overpaid by a couple million? The Cavs are going to literally gain nothing from an on court perspective or cap perspective if they pay him what he's truly worth or overpay by a couple million per year.

This is a unique situation. It's not like the Cavs can take the money they would've paid Thompson and use it elsewhere. They have no cap space to add anyone regardless of Thompson signing a big deal or not.

[bdreason]

What does it matter if he's overpaid by a couple million? The Cavs are going to literally gain nothing from an on court perspective or cap perspective if they pay him what he's truly worth or overpay by a couple million per year.

This is a unique situation. It's not like the Cavs can take the money they would've paid Thompson and use it elsewhere. They have no cap space to add anyone regardless of Thompson signing a big deal or not.


Every million the Cavs spend over the luxury tax threshold increases their tax penalty exponentially. Once they are ~$20 million over the luxury, they have to pay almost $4 for every $1 they spend. That means if TT is making ~$15m per year, Dan Gilbert is actually paying ~$35m per year for his services. And after next season, the repeater tax will kick in for the Cavs, costing them an additional $1 for every $1 over the luxury cap.

[Carbine]

Every million the Cavs spend over the luxury tax threshold increases their tax penalty exponentially. Once they are ~$20 million over the luxury, they have to pay almost $4 for every $1 they spend. That means if TT is making ~$15m per year, Dan Gilbert is actually paying ~$35m per year for his services. And after next season, the repeater tax will kick in for the Cavs, costing them an additional $1 for every $1 over the luxury cap.


We don't give a **** about Dan Gilberts money. He's one of the richest people in the USA.

We look down on cheap owners. It deprived us of a Westbrook/Harden/Durant/Ibaka potential dynasty.

As fans we care about the team and how it effects the teams fortunes. Overpayin a few million doesn't change the outlook at all, and losing him would be a negative.

[DMAVS41]

He's a (R) Free Agent right now. Where are all these 15m per year offers from other teams?

There are teams out there that could sign TT and play him 30+ minutes per game, and even they aren't offering him $15m per.

Because this isn't really his "free agency"...if he doesn't get a solid offer from the Cavs or Blazers....he'll opt in and leave next year.

Care to wager how much he gets in free agency next summer if he isn't locked up now?

I'll do a full year avy bet that it's 15 million or more.

[DMAVS41]

Andy is obv not. Thats what happens when you have a substantial injury right after you sign a new deal. But 10M for a starting G over the next 4 is fine. I think Shump's deal will look pretty good in 2-3 years.

Well first off, money is ALWAYS a concern. Its one thing to overpay a guy to keep continuity. Its another thing to overpay by a massive amount PLUS have enormous tax expenditures. The difference just NEXT YEAR between the 6.8M QO and his proposed deal is about 30M in salary/tax to the Cavs. And yes, 30M is a lot to anyone.

As long as injuries don't plague the team like they did last year how many min do you think are really going to go to TT? KLove, while he had a rough season, was miles better. He gets 32 min+. And while LeBron doesn't love the 4 he needs to play there more when other teams go small. Thats far fewer min left for TT. And if he is signed to 5/94 what does Mozzy get next year? 25M? Mozzy is far more vital to the team IMO.

Your "logic" has to have some end point. Sure, Cle is better with him on the team. But how much better? Who else in the league pays 18M for a 15min/gm player? Even with salaries exploding, that is just not going to happen. They are probably better by having Delly too. If Delly had balked at the deal he ended up with should they have offered him a max deal too?

You must not have read my earlier posts.

Again, if the concern is Gilbert's money. I totally agree. That is absolutely a valid reason to not pay TT.

If, however, Gilbert is willing to spend the money....I don't see any argument against having him.

How much do you think TT is worth? Just what do you think is a fair deal for him.

And then...how much should the Cavs be willing to spend?

Also, I don't think he's a 15 minute per game player at all. Not really sure where you are getting that. He's a 25 to 30 minute per game type guy on the Cavs.

[HurricaneKid]

Because this isn't really his "free agency"...if he doesn't get a solid offer from the Cavs or Blazers....he'll opt in and leave next year.

Care to wager how much he gets in free agency next summer if he isn't locked up now?

I'll do a full year avy bet that it's 15 million or more.

He won't be eligible to sign a 5 year deal (if we are taking RP at his word). So he would need a deal like 4/77M to match what he is turning down now (reportedly 5/83ish). So he is willing to risk 77M in guaranteed money to possibly make more or less long term. His breakeven point is 4/77m.

And I'll take the under on that bet.

Defenses focus on elite players. There is a long list of 4th and 5th options that have improved their stats while playing with LeBron. None of them were worthy of massive FA deals like what you are suggesting.

[DMAVS41]

Every million the Cavs spend over the luxury tax threshold increases their tax penalty exponentially. Once they are ~$20 million over the luxury, they have to pay almost $4 for every $1 they spend. That means if TT is making ~$15m per year, Dan Gilbert is actually paying ~$35m per year for his services. And after next season, the repeater tax will kick in for the Cavs, costing them an additional $1 for every $1 over the luxury cap.

Again...that is what we all agree with. That if Gilbert doesn't want to spend the money...that's fine.

We are arguing that there is no reason outside of that. And guess what....you don't pay TT and he leaves...guess who also might be leaving town again.

Is it really worth it? If they really want to save money they can try to dump Andy on somebody and lose picks in the process. I'm sure the 76ers would be willing to take a couple picks and absorb him. There are always ways to save money.

I just don't think you mess around when Lebron is asking you to sign a guy that is 24 years old and fits in very well with the team.

Also, I'd much rather have TT than Mozgov. They could just not sign Mozgov next summer and save the money that way.

So you guys gonna be good with the 4 year 70 million dollar deal Mozgov gets next summer at age 30? LOL

[DMAVS41]

He won't be eligible to sign a 5 year deal (if we are taking RP at his word). So he would need a deal like 4/77M to match what he is turning down now (reportedly 5/83ish). So he is willing to risk 77M in guaranteed money to possibly make more or less long term. His breakeven point is 4/77m.

And I'll take the under on that bet.

Defenses focus on elite players. There is a long list of 4th and 5th options that have improved their stats while playing with LeBron. None of them were worthy of massive FA deals like what you are suggesting.

I'm suggesting he's a 15 million dollar a year player in this market. Not sure what you are talking about.

[RedBlackAttack]

Andy is obv not. Thats what happens when you have a substantial injury right after you sign a new deal. But 10M for a starting G over the next 4 is fine. I think Shump's deal will look pretty good in 2-3 years.

Well first off, money is ALWAYS a concern. Its one thing to overpay a guy to keep continuity. Its another thing to overpay by a massive amount PLUS have enormous tax expenditures. The difference just NEXT YEAR between the 6.8M QO and his proposed deal is about 30M in salary/tax to the Cavs. And yes, 30M is a lot to anyone.

As long as injuries don't plague the team like they did last year how many min do you think are really going to go to TT? KLove, while he had a rough season, was miles better. He gets 32 min+. And while LeBron doesn't love the 4 he needs to play there more when other teams go small. Thats far fewer min left for TT. And if he is signed to 5/94 what does Mozzy get next year? 25M? Mozzy is far more vital to the team IMO.

Your "logic" has to have some end point. Sure, Cle is better with him on the team. But how much better? Who else in the league pays 18M for a 15min/gm player? Even with salaries exploding, that is just not going to happen. They are probably better by having Delly too. If Delly had balked at the deal he ended up with should they have offered him a max deal too?
I'm wondering in what world Tristan is playing just 15 minutes a game on this team ... ?

He averaged 27 minutes a game in the regular season, long before Love was injured. He averaged the same number of minutes in the first three games of the Boston series... again, before Love was injured.

He's probably going to get more minutes next year, not less, considering he's still very young and is coming off the best season of his career.

[HurricaneKid]

You must not have read my earlier posts.

Again, if the concern is Gilbert's money. I totally agree. That is absolutely a valid reason to not pay TT.

If, however, Gilbert is willing to spend the money....I don't see any argument against having him.

How much do you think TT is worth? Just what do you think is a fair deal for him.

And then...how much should the Cavs be willing to spend?

Also, I don't think he's a 15 minute per game player at all. Not really sure where you are getting that. He's a 25 to 30 minute per game type guy on the Cavs.

I'm getting the min from the rotation. KLove will start and get his min. LBJ will play min at the 4. Mozzy will start (this is where we really differ- I think Mozzy is far more important to the Cavs). Love will get some small ball 5 min and AV needs at least 12 min. There just isn't a need for a limited player like TT. He is really nice in case of emergency, as he showed in the playoffs. But emergency guys aren't worth that.

If LeBron wanted to leverage the Cavs he could have refused to resign until everyone else was under contract. He did the opposite.

I thought he was insane to refuse the 4/52 he was offered before the season. And if Love doesn't go down I think he gets brought back at something like that. He def made himself some money in the playoffs but are we really talking about giving him > an extra 50% because of a 15 game playoff stretch? I think their offer of 5/80-85 is more than fair, and if it were me I would be more excited to get him for 1 yr/7M than 5/80+.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm suggesting he's a 15 million dollar a year player in this market. Not sure what you are talking about.

You seem to be supporting his decision to turn down 5/83 to take 1/7.

He would need a deal better than 4/77m next offseason to make up for such a precipitous drop. What is so hard to follow there?

[HurricaneKid]

I'm wondering in what world Tristan is playing just 15 minutes a game on this team ... ?

He averaged 27 minutes a game in the regular season, long before Love was injured. He averaged the same number of minutes in the first three games of the Boston series... again, before Love was injured.

He's probably going to get more minutes next year, not less, considering he's still very young and is coming off the best season of his career.

He has backed up AV his entire career (which isn't a bad thing since AV is always hurt).

The whole league is going to go smaller. LBJ WILL play some 4 next year. He played NONE last year. That leaves him competing for time with Love, LBJ, Mozzy, AV (plus Kaun, etc)

Also, while no one acknowledges it, his contributuions diminish substantially when he plays long min. As an energy bench guy his optimal min are probably ~18-24/. Wright is the same but can't handle more than ~16.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm suggesting he's a 15 million dollar a year player in this market. Not sure what you are talking about.

I'm fine with that. He is publicly refusing to sit at the table with a club that has offered him more than that.

By the way, this is turning into a CARBON COPY of last years negotiations with Bledsoe. Remember him getting someone on the TWolves to say he was worth the max when the TWolves didn't have any cap space? Pretty similar to leaking that there were 3-5 teams willing to pay max when we haven't had a whisper of an offer sheet. He is going to sign at the last possible moment like Bledsoe did last year.

[RedBlackAttack]

He has backed up AV his entire career (which isn't a bad thing since AV is always hurt).

The whole league is going to go smaller. LBJ WILL play some 4 next year. He played NONE last year. That leaves him competing for time with Love, LBJ, Mozzy, AV (plus Kaun, etc)

Also, while no one acknowledges it, his contributuions diminish substantially when he plays long min. As an energy bench guy his optimal min are probably ~18-24/. Wright is the same but can't handle more than ~16.
I'm sorry, but having followed his entire career and watched every games he's played in, I see the trending going the complete opposite direction. He is actually a really good option when teams go small, because he's an excellent pick-and-roll defender and can switch out onto smaller, perimeter players when needed... something that no other Cavaliers bigman can do. When teams go small, LeBron plays the 4 and TT moves to the 5. That's exactly the reason he's so important to this team.

And, I think we can safely assume TT has supplanted Varejao as the backup PF/C. TT will play around 25-30 minutes next season. Varejao will see around 10-15 a night. It's been essentially proven that when Varejao plays 20 minutes or more on an extended basis, he gets hurt.

This is actually a perfect situation for him. TT is getting the bulk of those minutes.

[DMAVS41]

I'm fine with that. He is publicly refusing to sit at the table with a club that has offered him more than that.

By the way, this is turning into a CARBON COPY of last years negotiations with Bledsoe. Remember him getting someone on the TWolves to say he was worth the max when the TWolves didn't have any cap space? Pretty similar to leaking that there were 3-5 teams willing to pay max when we haven't had a whisper of an offer sheet. He is going to sign at the last possible moment like Bledsoe did last year.

I haven't even commented on supporting TT. I just think he's worth at minimum 15 million a year in this market.

And if I'm the Cavs/Gilbert...the downside of not paying him is way bigger than the downside of paying him what he's asking or something similar to. In my opinion of course.

I feel like there are two separate conversations going on here.

One is whether or not Gilbert should be willing to pay the tax. I have no opinion on that really....I don't blame he either way...I'd just be very careful about pissing Lebron off.

The other is about what is a fair/good contract for TT. I think somewhere between 15 to 17 million a year for him is fair.

What do you dispute on that?

[greymatter]

Good riddance.

Last thing the league needs is to do is to get into a habit of overpaying mediocre players that overestimate themselves and will never come close to even sniffing an all star appearance. Mediocre players who could only start for mediocre or below average NBA teams do not deserve 18+M a year contracts.

[bdreason]

Without Mozgov, the Cavs won't win a title. He's 10x's more important to that team than TT. I honestly can't believe a Cavs fan would even make the argument.

[midatlantic09]

So much ignorance in this thread.

Projected salary cap of 107 million in two years. It's 70 million right now.

That's a 2/3rd total increase in total cap.

Paying Tristan Thompson 20 million a year at the new projected cap will be the equilivent of paying him like 12 million now.

Even $12 mil for Thompson is overpaying.

[bobopenguin]

Without Mozgov, the Cavs won't win a title. He's 10x's more important to that team than TT. I honestly can't believe a Cavs fan would even make the argument.

and ppl actually support to let TT has more playing time, cut down mozgov's playing time..
u gonna cut down this guy's playing time at his contract year? which arguably is his only & last big fat contract, that would take away his production and value.. he will be the first one to strike.

[El Gato Negro]

there really are no defensive metrics that accurately measure how good a player is defensively. Too much to account for.

Saying Love was a better defender than TT proves that those stats your are looking at suck balls.
just because they dont back your argument is no reason to dismiss them, if you watched the cavs this year then you should know TT is an average defender at best. and yes love is better on that end. dont have the stats in front of me but im pretty sure it went moz, shump/jr, love as far as the cavs defensive impact for the year, seems right.

[El Gato Negro]

Every million the Cavs spend over the luxury tax threshold increases their tax penalty exponentially. Once they are ~$20 million over the luxury, they have to pay almost $4 for every $1 they spend. That means if TT is making ~$15m per year, Dan Gilbert is actually paying ~$35m per year for his services. And after next season, the repeater tax will kick in for the Cavs, costing them an additional $1 for every $1 over the luxury cap.
once again you have no clue , the repeater tax isnt in play for the cavs till 2018 stop spewing stupid crap as facts. quit reading windy articles. do some f-ing research.

[Clifton]

I remember back in the days when the MLE was the great temptation.

Teams would offer guys (Jerome James comes to mind) 6 years at 36 million, and these contracts would haunt teams for half a decade. This would make both the player who wasn't earning the money, and the team that shelled it out, a laughingstock for the whole league.

Now the great temptation is to offer everyone the max. A bad contract used to be 6/36 for someone who barely makes the rotation. Now it's 4/80, or 5/90, for your first or second guy off the bench (Thompson, Jackson)

[kurple]

Without Mozgov, the Cavs won't win a title. He's 10x's more important to that team than TT. I honestly can't believe a Cavs fan would even make the argument.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

I can't believe we're even talking about Tristan Thompson being a $20 mil a year player.

[Vancouver-Grizz]

So much ignorance in this thread.

Projected salary cap of 107 million in two years. It's 70 million right now.

That's a 2/3rd total increase in total cap.

Paying Tristan Thompson 20 million a year at the new projected cap will be the equilivent of paying him like 12 million now.

based on your figures that is a 35% increase which still doesn't equal to 20 million. 16.2 Million equals to 12 Million. The projected Salary cap is still up for debate as well. The first year of the new Television deal was expected to jump the NBA Salary cap by 20 Million.

[HurricaneKid]

I haven't even commented on supporting TT. I just think he's worth at minimum 15 million a year in this market.

And if I'm the Cavs/Gilbert...the downside of not paying him is way bigger than the downside of paying him what he's asking or something similar to. In my opinion of course.

I feel like there are two separate conversations going on here.

One is whether or not Gilbert should be willing to pay the tax. I have no opinion on that really....I don't blame he either way...I'd just be very careful about pissing Lebron off.

The other is about what is a fair/good contract for TT. I think somewhere between 15 to 17 million a year for him is fair.

What do you dispute on that?

LeBron doesn't have nearly the leverage people seem to think he has. Say Gilbert decides a bench player who doesn't know which hand to shoot with isn't worth 140M (85M in salary and at least 55M in tax), do we seriously think LeBron can up and leave Cle again? Without winning a title there??

I think TT played himself to a 15/16M deal. Its more the timing of it all. I don't think he is worth that much to Cle but circumstances being what they are I think that is a reasonable compromise. He is refusing to negotiate with the team that has offered him 5/83. Thats already on the high end.

As far as replacing him, worst case scenario they can let him go next year and as he is signing throw the team 2 2nds with him to get a TPE back. I think a 17M TPE is worth more than he is at that salary.

[DMAVS41]

I can't believe we're even talking about Tristan Thompson being a $20 mil a year player.

It's crazy in a vacuum, but there are unique circumstances for the Cavs combined with an absurd market.

One could say they are all terrible contracts, but if guys like:

Lopez 20 Million
Matthews 17.5 million
Parsons 16 million
Kanter 17.5 million
Jackson 16 million

And these were all done in markets without the cap increase. Yes, they were negotiated with that increase in mind...well, Parsons really wasn't....but we haven't seen the full force of a market with that big of an increase.

I just don't see why paying TT roughly 18 million a year at age 24 to lock him up for 5 years is just the craziest thing ever. I don't like it all in a vacuum, but the Cavs are in a unique situation.

I think TT is currently worth around 15 million a year in this NBA. He's definitely more valuable than a guy like Asik, for example, and Asik just got 12 million a year. And Asik is a full 5 years older. At the end of the Asik contract...he'll be 34 and he likely won't be very good. At the end of a 5 year TT contract...he'll likely be playing the best basketball of his career.

We are talking about a 3 to 4 million dollar per year overpay here. I don't think it's as extreme as most do.

[FatComputerNerd]

Without Mozgov, the Cavs won't win a title. He's 10x's more important to that team than TT. I honestly can't believe a Cavs fan would even make the argument.

Agreed.

When the trades went down, both Smith and Shump' were huge for us, but having a legit 7' post presence in Mozgod was the real game-changer.

TT is good at what he does, but I think Mozgov makes a greater impact overall.

That said, we do still need TT. Especially given our need to limit AV's minutes.

We sort of have no choice but to pay him.

[HurricaneKid]

It's crazy in a vacuum, but there are unique circumstances for the Cavs combined with an absurd market.

One could say they are all terrible contracts, but if guys like:

Lopez 20 Million
Matthews 17.5 million
Parsons 16 million
Kanter 17.5 million
Jackson 16 million

And these were all done in markets without the cap increase.

Now you are just being intellectually dishonest. 4 of the 5 were signed this offseason, same as Thompson will be. Only Parsons wasn't (and his deal was shorter, etc).

Lopez has had PERs of 24.7, 25.4 and 22.7 the last three years. His career TS% is .564. TT switched the hand he shoots with and shot ~36% from outside 3 feet this season in his career season. TT is NO BroLo. He is far closer to RoLo who got ~13M.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron doesn't have nearly the leverage people seem to think he has. Say Gilbert decides a bench player who doesn't know which hand to shoot with isn't worth 140M (85M in salary and at least 55M in tax), do we seriously think LeBron can up and leave Cle again? Without winning a title there??

I think TT played himself to a 15/16M deal. Its more the timing of it all. I don't think he is worth that much to Cle but circumstances being what they are I think that is a reasonable compromise. He is refusing to negotiate with the team that has offered him 5/83. Thats already on the high end.

As far as replacing him, worst case scenario they can let him go next year and as he is signing throw the team 2 2nds with him to get a TPE back. I think a 17M TPE is worth more than he is at that salary.

Can you please, for once, listen to what I'm saying.

I have repeatedly said I have no issue with Gilbert not paying TT given the situation.

I do think it's risky with Lebron though.

I'm not taking TT's side or anything like that. I just think he's worth in the 15 to 16 million range and I don't think it's some absurd thing for someone to get overpaid by 3 to 4 million a year given the circumstances of this NBA market combined with the fact that he's 24 years old.

[DMAVS41]

Now you are just being intellectually dishonest. 4 of the 5 were signed this offseason, same as Thompson will be. Only Parsons wasn't (and his deal was shorter, etc).

Lopez has had PERs of 24.7, 25.4 and 22.7 the last three years. His career TS% is .564. TT switched the hand he shoots with and shot ~36% from outside 3 feet this season in his career season. TT is NO BroLo. He is far closer to RoLo who got ~13M.

Dishonest?

In my post I spoke to what you said. It's about where this stuff is going. TT will make, at minimum, 16 million a year if he signs next year elsewhere.

There is nothing dishonest about it. The market is what it is. Words can't express how much more I'd rather have TT than pretty much all of those guys on that list.

Again....I will spell this out one more time. There are two conversations going on.

1. Whether or not Giblert should pay TT. I have no issue, at all, with Gilbert choosing not to overpay TT while dipping into the tax a lot. I do, however, think it's risky with Lebron clearly wanting him back.

2. This is what is the fair value for TT now and in the future. Right now, I think he's in that 15 to 16 million range as a player. Guys get paid way more than their fair value all the time...and it's going to happen more and more now with the cap increasing. We have already seen this in this summer.

Would I feel good about paying TT 18 million a year? Nope. Do I think it's the worst contract ever? Nope. I could list 3 or 4 worse contracts this summer alone.

I really don't think you disagree with me on any of this given your posts. I'm not even sure you have read anything I've said. You keep going on and on about Gilbert. But I've repeatedly said I have no problem with Gilbert not paying.

My issue is with people acting like it would be the worst contract ever and that signing a 24 year old to a 10 to 15 percent inflated salary is just beyond dumb. Neither of those things are true...

[HurricaneKid]

Dishonest?

In my post I spoke to what you said. It's about where this stuff is going. TT will make, at minimum, 16 million a year if he signs next year elsewhere.

There is nothing dishonest about it. The market is what it is. Words can't express how much more I'd rather have TT than pretty much all of those guys on that list.

Again....I will spell this out one more time. There are two conversations going on.

1. Whether or not Giblert should pay TT. I have no issue, at all, with Gilbert choosing not to overpay TT while dipping into the tax a lot. I do, however, think it's risky with Lebron clearly wanting him back.

2. This is what is the fair value for TT now and in the future. Right now, I think he's in that 15 to 16 million range as a player. Guys get paid way more than their fair value all the time...and it's going to happen more and more now with the cap increasing. We have already seen this in this summer.

Would I feel good about paying TT 18 million a year? Nope. Do I think it's the worst contract ever? Nope. I could list 3 or 4 worse contracts this summer alone.

I really don't think you disagree with me on any of this given your posts. I'm not even sure you have read anything I've said. You keep going on and on about Gilbert. But I've repeatedly said I have no problem with Gilbert not paying.

My issue is with people acting like it would be the worst contract ever and that signing a 24 year old to a 10 to 15 percent inflated salary is just beyond dumb. Neither of those things are true...

You said those other contracts were signed in a different market when 4 of the 5 of them were signed this offseason. THAT is why I called you intellectually dishonest.

You ALWAYS have to overpay FAs. My contention is that that overpay is 15M. In today's NBA you need to either have elite players on a rookie deal, or superstars that aren't compensated properly because of the limitations placed in the CBA. The best three players last year were on the last three teams to advance. All three were horrifyingly underpaid (Curry 11M, Harden 13.7, LBJ 20) for what they contribute. There is no possibility of getting value out of TT at 17M/. There just isn't. He can never be more than a role player. And role players don't get deals like 5/94. He just happens to be a FA at the perfect time. The truth is his defense is overstated, he doesn't protect the rim, and is AWFUL from >3 ft.

Anytime you give a 24 yr old an extension you are HOPING he continues to improve. But the truth is given his substantial limitations its quite possible that this contract becomes one of the worst in the league. His upside is just minimal. Your argument is that he gets 15M+ on the open market but there haven't even been any whispers at this point of a team with space making a move. And if there were value to extract you would think something would be out there.

I certainly don't think the Cavs, with their glut of front court players can possibly get value out of him at that price point. On the other hand, teams are going to be throwing money at a bad FA class next year or be below the salary floor so guys are going to get undeserved money this year. Its more about figuring out how to have a year or two of wildly overpaid players and trying to fix your salary distribution thereafter.

[RedBlackAttack]

I certainly don't think the Cavs, with their glut of front court players can possibly get value out of him at that price point. On the other hand...

...on the other hand, their hands are tied with the cap and, really, this only effects Gilbert's bottom line. I've read this back-and-forth and I'd maintain that you didn't watch a ton of Cavs games last year. Particularly on the point of him only playing 15 minutes a game this coming season, that's just flat-out off base and you don't have to be a fan of TT's game to understand that.

So, here's the options... Pay Tristan or watch him walk. It won't do anything for our ability to sign free agents. Really, all it does is subtract an important piece (yes, he was an important last year and he will be going forward) from a young core of players.

It also doesn't impact the Cavs ability to re-sign Mozgov next year. If Gilbert is set on keeping things together, there's no reason he can't.

I guess the point is, if you are the Cavs, do you watch TT walk out the door just on the principle that, under your argument, he isn't worth the number he is asking for? Or, do you continue to increase the odds of winning a title by maybe even overpaying in the "now," knowing that as contracts explode in the coming years, $15-19 million is going to look a lot different than it does at this moment? :confusedshrug:

Yes, part of me thinks it is crazy that Tristan would be making almost as much as Irving and Love... but then again, this is a unique situation the Cavs are in and it is one where watching him leave gives us no more maneuverability going forward.

The repeater tax can get pricey, but that is still years down the line and with the luxury tax threshold increasing with the new CBA, it could give the Cavs a reprieve down the road.

To me, it's pretty obvious that he's not going anywhere. The Cavs will pay. The only question is how much.

[DMAVS41]

You said those other contracts were signed in a different market when 4 of the 5 of them were signed this offseason. THAT is why I called you intellectually dishonest.

You ALWAYS have to overpay FAs. My contention is that that overpay is 15M. In today's NBA you need to either have elite players on a rookie deal, or superstars that aren't compensated properly because of the limitations placed in the CBA. The best three players last year were on the last three teams to advance. All three were horrifyingly underpaid (Curry 11M, Harden 13.7, LBJ 20) for what they contribute. There is no possibility of getting value out of TT at 17M/. There just isn't. He can never be more than a role player. And role players don't get deals like 5/94. He just happens to be a FA at the perfect time. The truth is his defense is overstated, he doesn't protect the rim, and is AWFUL from >3 ft.

Anytime you give a 24 yr old an extension you are HOPING he continues to improve. But the truth is given his substantial limitations its quite possible that this contract becomes one of the worst in the league. His upside is just minimal. Your argument is that he gets 15M+ on the open market but there haven't even been any whispers at this point of a team with space making a move. And if there were value to extract you would think something would be out there.

I certainly don't think the Cavs, with their glut of front court players can possibly get value out of him at that price point. On the other hand, teams are going to be throwing money at a bad FA class next year or be below the salary floor so guys are going to get undeserved money this year. Its more about figuring out how to have a year or two of wildly overpaid players and trying to fix your salary distribution thereafter.

I said they were before the cap increase...which is a fact.

I then added that they had the cap increase built into them (outside of Parsons), but they we have yet to see what it will be like when the cap actually goes up and teams have a lot more free cap space next summer than the average team had this year.

In fact, let me quote my post for you:

And these were all done in markets without the cap increase. Yes, they were negotiated with that increase in mind...well, Parsons really wasn't....but we haven't seen the full force of a market with that big of an increase.

That isn't dishonest....those are just facts.

Dishonest? Dishonest would be you here. Notice how you quoted my post...you left out the 2nd part of my statement. That is dishonest buddy.

I don't see how the 15 million is an overpay here. That is just fair value for him in this market. You may not think he's worth that, but then you are just kind of arguing you don't want him on your team. Because a 24 year old big that is as versatile on defense as Thompson is a very nice asset. And you can't just call the majority of contracts bad.

[DMAVS41]

...on the other hand, their hands are tied with the cap and, really, this only effects Gilbert's bottom line. I've read this back-and-forth and I'd maintain that you didn't watch a ton of Cavs games last year. Particularly on the point of him only playing 15 minutes a game this coming season, that's just flat-out off base and you don't have to be a fan of TT's game to understand that.

So, here's the options... Pay Tristan or watch him walk. It won't do anything for our ability to sign free agents. Really, all it does is subtract an important piece (yes, he was an important last year and he will be going forward) from a young core of players.

It also doesn't impact the Cavs ability to re-sign Mozgov next year. If Gilbert is set on keeping things together, there's no reason he can't.

I guess the point is, if you are the Cavs, do you watch TT walk out the door just on the principle that, under your argument, he isn't worth the number he is asking for? Or, do you continue to increase the odds of winning a title by maybe even overpaying in the "now," knowing that as contracts explode in the coming years, $15-19 million is going to look a lot different than it does at this moment? :confusedshrug:

Yes, part of me thinks it is crazy that Tristan would be making almost as much as Irving and Love... but then again, this is a unique situation the Cavs are in and it is one where watching him leave gives us no more maneuverability going forward.

The repeater tax can get pricey, but that is still years down the line and with the luxury tax threshold increasing with the new CBA, it could give the Cavs a reprieve down the road.

To me, it's pretty obvious that he's not going anywhere. The Cavs will pay. The only question is how much.


Bingo.

[bobopenguin]

possible to offer him a qualify offer this season, then do sign and trade to get asset back and send him to where he wanna go? win win for both.

[SwishSquared]

Somebody posted this earlier but this is the same song-and-dance that Bledsoe went through. Same agent. LBJ commented today, same way he commented last offseason after the Bledsoe negotiations died down. He'll get a deal in the next couple weeks or so.

Yes, he will be overpaid. Lots of people were overpaid this summer imo, even factoring in the cap jump about to happen. The thing is- what if TT plays out the year on a QO and rejects any offer from the Cavs next summer? So many teams can give him a 4 year max and we've seen guys turn down money to pick their situation. Giving TT a max this summer is more palatable than next summer, anyway.

Cleveland, basically Gilbert, saves luxury tax money if you risk it with the QO, but potentially loses its best PnR defensive big. No other guy on the Cavs brings TT's qualities and I bet no other young big man on the market next summer who brings his traits will take any of the Cavs' exceptions. No, he's not a great rim protector and he may never be. But he switches very well onto perimeter players in the PnR, and that is a huge asset in chasing rings.

So- do you incur huge costs via luxury tax payments and trot out as stacked a squad as possible or do you risk losing a young, defensively versatile big man by alienating him into being an UFA? Cavs are clear favorites in the East on paper- why rock the boat?

If Gilbert is fine paying the taxes, which he hasn't indicated he won't, I see no reason to mickey mouse here. I don't think TT is worth more than Draymond Green and I wouldn't be shocked if he got more than Dray, but Cavs will work it out. You tick off Rich Paul & TT and you seriously risk losing LBJ next summer imo.

[bobopenguin]

Somebody posted this earlier but this is the same song-and-dance that Bledsoe went through. Same agent. LBJ commented today, same way he commented last offseason after the Bledsoe negotiations died down. He'll get a deal in the next couple weeks or so.

Yes, he will be overpaid. Lots of people were overpaid this summer imo, even factoring in the cap jump about to happen. The thing is- what if TT plays out the year on a QO and rejects any offer from the Cavs next summer? So many teams can give him a 4 year max and we've seen guys turn down money to pick their situation. Giving TT a max this summer is more palatable than next summer, anyway.

Cleveland, basically Gilbert, saves luxury tax money if you risk it with the QO, but potentially loses its best PnR defensive big. No other guy on the Cavs brings TT's qualities and I bet no other young big man on the market next summer who brings his traits will take any of the Cavs' exceptions. No, he's not a great rim protector and he may never be. But he switches very well onto perimeter players in the PnR, and that is a huge asset in chasing rings.

So- do you incur huge costs via luxury tax payments and trot out as stacked a squad as possible or do you risk losing a young, defensively versatile big man by alienating him into being an UFA? Cavs are clear favorites in the East on paper- why rock the boat?

If Gilbert is fine paying the taxes, which he hasn't indicated he won't, I see no reason to mickey mouse here. I don't think TT is worth more than Draymond Green and I wouldn't be shocked if he got more than Dray, but Cavs will work it out. You tick off Rich Paul & TT and you seriously risk losing LBJ next summer imo.

if lebron wanna walk, i would sent him and TT to pelican for AD + 1st round, but i serious doubt pelican GM is that dumb.

[Lebron23]

He's gonna resign with the Cavaliers.

[RedBlackAttack]

Somebody posted this earlier but this is the same song-and-dance that Bledsoe went through. Same agent. LBJ commented today, same way he commented last offseason after the Bledsoe negotiations died down. He'll get a deal in the next couple weeks or so.

Yes, he will be overpaid. Lots of people were overpaid this summer imo, even factoring in the cap jump about to happen. The thing is- what if TT plays out the year on a QO and rejects any offer from the Cavs next summer? So many teams can give him a 4 year max and we've seen guys turn down money to pick their situation. Giving TT a max this summer is more palatable than next summer, anyway.

Cleveland, basically Gilbert, saves luxury tax money if you risk it with the QO, but potentially loses its best PnR defensive big. No other guy on the Cavs brings TT's qualities and I bet no other young big man on the market next summer who brings his traits will take any of the Cavs' exceptions. No, he's not a great rim protector and he may never be. But he switches very well onto perimeter players in the PnR, and that is a huge asset in chasing rings.

So- do you incur huge costs via luxury tax payments and trot out as stacked a squad as possible or do you risk losing a young, defensively versatile big man by alienating him into being an UFA? Cavs are clear favorites in the East on paper- why rock the boat?

If Gilbert is fine paying the taxes, which he hasn't indicated he won't, I see no reason to mickey mouse here. I don't think TT is worth more than Draymond Green and I wouldn't be shocked if he got more than Dray, but Cavs will work it out. You tick off Rich Paul & TT and you seriously risk losing LBJ next summer imo.
Good post.

The funny thing is it was reported that Green's agent and the Warriors negotiated his contract based partly on the then rumored TT deal (5 years, $80 million). If you recall, in the first week of free agency it was said that the Cavs and TT had agreed on principle and it was a done deal.

It wasn't until after Green was given his contract ($85 million?) that reports began to surface about the Tristan deal not being done.

I look at this dog and pony show as just business as usual for Rich Paul. Apparently, he can't live with himself unless he makes sure he has squeezed every dime out of whichever organization he's dealing with. That would normally be a positive thing for an agent, but it's not like this is happening in a vaccum. He did literally the same exact thing last year with Bledsoe. At some point, when this is happening with literally every marginally high profile player that you represent, the organizations are going to catch on. If you are consistently difficult to deal with and teams are weighing the pros and cons of your guy versus some other player of similar value not represented by Paul, they may start looking the other direction.

Obviously that can't happen with the Cavs and TT. They have no other similar options, but this guy's reputation of being difficult will eventually catch up with him.

I still predict TT will be signed for something around 5 years/$80 million and this will all have been an incredible waste of time.

[HurricaneKid]

So, here's the options... Pay Tristan or watch him walk. It won't do anything for our ability to sign free agents. Really, all it does is subtract an important piece (yes, he was an important last year and he will be going forward) from a young core of players.



This isn't entirely accurate. Lets say TT does the impossible and elects to play for the QO and refuses to even nogotiate with Cle next offseason as RP aggressively claims (which is laughable as he was selling jerseys out of the trunk before LeBron came around; if you think he is going to take a skilled player from LBJ you are crazy).

Lets say the XXXXXXs sign him for 4/100M next offseason. All Griffin has to do is offer a S&T and toss a couple free 2nd rounders (or a well protected 1st) with TT for nothing and they get back a TPE for 25M.

I would argue the value of the TPE plus getting a season out of TT at <7M is far more valuable than TT on a massive overpay. Now if they can do anything with their 10M TPE this year much less an enormous one next year is highly questionable as NO ONE will be dumping salary.




It also doesn't impact the Cavs ability to re-sign Mozgov next year. If Gilbert is set on keeping things together, there's no reason he can't.

I guess the point is, if you are the Cavs, do you watch TT walk out the door just on the principle that, under your argument, he isn't worth the number he is asking for? Or, do you continue to increase the odds of winning a title by maybe even overpaying in the "now," knowing that as contracts explode in the coming years, $15-19 million is going to look a lot different than it does at this moment? :confusedshrug:

Yes, part of me thinks it is crazy that Tristan would be making almost as much as Irving and Love... but then again, this is a unique situation the Cavs are in and it is one where watching him leave gives us no more maneuverability going forward.

The repeater tax can get pricey, but that is still years down the line and with the luxury tax threshold increasing with the new CBA, it could give the Cavs a reprieve down the road.


The problem isn't just the money (and the fact that people like to spend another guy's $40M on TT this year). Its the flexibility. The Cavs have an embarrassment of riches. But what happens if Kyrie and Shump get hurt (as they are both prone to do)? You need to have the flexibility to make necessary adjustments. And when you lock in guys at salaries that don't make sense you have no capability to make any adjustments when needed.




To me, it's pretty obvious that he's not going anywhere. The Cavs will pay. The only question is how much.

Yep. I concur.

[el gringos]

This isn't entirely accurate. Lets say TT does the impossible and elects to play for the QO and refuses to even nogotiate with Cle next offseason as RP aggressively claims (which is laughable as he was selling jerseys out of the trunk before LeBron came around; if you think he is going to take a skilled player from LBJ you are crazy).

Lets say the XXXXXXs sign him for 4/100M next offseason. All Griffin has to do is offer a S&T and toss a couple free 2nd rounders (or a well protected 1st) with TT for nothing and they get back a TPE for 25M.

I would argue the value of the TPE plus getting a season out of TT at <7M is far more valuable than TT on a massive overpay. Now if they can do anything with their 10M TPE this year much less an enormous one next year is highly questionable as NO ONE will be dumping salary.




The problem isn't just the money (and the fact that people like to spend another guy's $40M on TT this year). Its the flexibility. The Cavs have an embarrassment of riches. But what happens if Kyrie and Shump get hurt (as they are both prone to do)? You need to have the flexibility to make necessary adjustments. And when you lock in guys at salaries that don't make sense you have no capability to make any adjustments when needed.




Yep. I concur.
If their guards get hurt they still have the trade exemption to go get Calderon

[DMAVS41]

This isn't entirely accurate. Lets say TT does the impossible and elects to play for the QO and refuses to even nogotiate with Cle next offseason as RP aggressively claims (which is laughable as he was selling jerseys out of the trunk before LeBron came around; if you think he is going to take a skilled player from LBJ you are crazy).

Lets say the XXXXXXs sign him for 4/100M next offseason. All Griffin has to do is offer a S&T and toss a couple free 2nd rounders (or a well protected 1st) with TT for nothing and they get back a TPE for 25M.

I would argue the value of the TPE plus getting a season out of TT at <7M is far more valuable than TT on a massive overpay. Now if they can do anything with their 10M TPE this year much less an enormous one next year is highly questionable as NO ONE will be dumping salary.




The problem isn't just the money (and the fact that people like to spend another guy's $40M on TT this year). Its the flexibility. The Cavs have an embarrassment of riches. But what happens if Kyrie and Shump get hurt (as they are both prone to do)? You need to have the flexibility to make necessary adjustments. And when you lock in guys at salaries that don't make sense you have no capability to make any adjustments when needed.




Yep. I concur.


Flexibility?

You aren't going to really have that whether you sign TT or not.

And flexibility is the kind of thing that you throw out the window when you can have a core of Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Shump, and TT for the next 5 plus years.

[Carbine]

Flexibility?

You aren't going to really have that whether you sign TT or not.

And flexibility is the kind of thing that you throw out the window when you can have a core of Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Shump, and TT for the next 5 plus years.

Right.

Flexibility is for teams trying to be the Cavs (a title contender)

Flexibility doesn't mean much of anything when you're already at that level and have your core locked up.

[SwishSquared]

Good post.

The funny thing is it was reported that Green's agent and the Warriors negotiated his contract based partly on the then rumored TT deal (5 years, $80 million). If you recall, in the first week of free agency it was said that the Cavs and TT had agreed on principle and it was a done deal.

It wasn't until after Green was given his contract ($85 million?) that reports began to surface about the Tristan deal not being done.

I look at this dog and pony show as just business as usual for Rich Paul. Apparently, he can't live with himself unless he makes sure he has squeezed every dime out of whichever organization he's dealing with. That would normally be a positive thing for an agent, but it's not like this is happening in a vaccum. He did literally the same exact thing last year with Bledsoe. At some point, when this is happening with literally every marginally high profile player that you represent, the organizations are going to catch on. If you are consistently difficult to deal with and teams are weighing the pros and cons of your guy versus some other player of similar value not represented by Paul, they may start looking the other direction.

Obviously that can't happen with the Cavs and TT. They have no other similar options, but this guy's reputation of being difficult will eventually catch up with him.

I still predict TT will be signed for something around 5 years/$80 million and this will all have been an incredible waste of time.I was thinking the same thing in regards to Rich Paul. He's gonna get a bad rap from teams if he does this annually with his clients seeking their first huge deal. He has LBJ's protection, per se, now but that won't last forever.

I do think this whole thing is kinda petty- I remember that it seemed like TT was done negotiating, then Dray got a big deal. TT then wanted more lol.I don't have a problem with TT going for the biggest offer possible, but even LBJ decided to re-up before this contract got done.

I remember last summer that Phoenix was pushing for the deal to have some partial guarantees, especially towards the end, but Paul/Bled wouldn't go for it. The resolution for Bledsoe was the financial equivalent of the QO + 4 year max deal rolled into a 5-year contract. I don't think TT will take that type of deal and will probably go for something in the ~$16-17M/year range, like you said.

I guess this provides some NBA news when the offseason goes quiet, but I'm getting tired of Rich Paul's act personally. He does right by his clients in the end (which is all that matters), but he's kinda a pest haha.
Lets say the XXXXXXs sign him for 4/100M next offseason. All Griffin has to do is offer a S&T and toss a couple free 2nd rounders (or a well protected 1st) with TT for nothing and they get back a TPE for 25M.

I would argue the value of the TPE plus getting a season out of TT at <7M is far more valuable than TT on a massive overpay. Now if they can do anything with their 10M TPE this year much less an enormous one next year is highly questionable as NO ONE will be dumping salary. I'm cherry-picking this quote, so forgive me. That method of limiting the tax this year and gaining a huge TPE is an ideal solution if you must lose out on TT's prime. However, such a strategy assumes you don't alienate any current players and any potential guys you can acquire in FA. Dumping a guy who fits a team's need for a TPE when you're trying to win multiple titles doesn't look absolutely astute, given the relative certainty of TT's production vs. the unknown of the huge TPE.

You also must consider what type of player they can obtain with this TPE. What real trade asset would Cleveland be willing to part with to acquire such a player? What team would bolster the end of LBJ's prime with a guy who makes that kind of annual salary?

In regards to flexiblity, it can be argued that the value of having TT for 5 years at over $16M/season is more valuable than a massive TPE that expires at the end of one calendar year. His (assumed) contract allows Cleveland to put together trade packages for an 8-figure player several years down the line, rather than being on the clock to utilize that one TPE.

Now, it's obviously worth it to lose TT if you land a real game-changer with a huge TPE, but what's the more realistic, more fruitful scenario- landing a big fish in a trade with few non-core assets or betting that TT improves and can relatively live up to his big, new contract? You also risk that if TT commits to a new squad, that he refuses to participate in a S&T. It's a great conversation to have, but I personally go the conservative team-building route, even if it's not as profitable in projections.

[bdreason]

People comparing TT to DrayGod? :facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

Dumping a guy who fits a team's need for a TPE when you're trying to win multiple titles doesn't look absolutely astute, given the relative certainty of TT's production vs. the unknown of the huge TPE.

You also must consider what type of player they can obtain with this TPE. What real trade asset would Cleveland be willing to part with to acquire such a player? What team would bolster the end of LBJ's prime with a guy who makes that kind of annual salary?

In regards to flexiblity, it can be argued that the value of having TT for 5 years at over $16M/season is more valuable than a massive TPE that expires at the end of one calendar year. His (assumed) contract allows Cleveland to put together trade packages for an 8-figure player several years down the line, rather than being on the clock to utilize that one TPE.

Now, it's obviously worth it to lose TT if you land a real game-changer with a huge TPE, but what's the more realistic, more fruitful scenario- landing a big fish in a trade with few non-core assets or betting that TT improves and can relatively live up to his big, new contract? You also risk that if TT commits to a new squad, that he refuses to participate in a S&T. It's a great conversation to have, but I personally go the conservative team-building route, even if it's not as profitable in projections.

I just don't see how a team starting KLove, Mozzy, and can still put LeBron at the 4 and they still have AV... NEEDS another 4. Especially one with such glaring holes in his game. In fact, I think its quite evident they need backcourt help substantially more.

Teams do what is in THEIR interests. So if a team is ready to jettison a well paid player they are likely rebuilding and getting some picks and the salary relief, and are able to give younger players bigger roles. Those teams aren't going to care if they make Cle good for the next few years. The risk is with the skyrocketing cap that no one is left that wants to dump salary at all, especially with the 1 year window. I think thats what Cleveland is dealing with with the existing 10M TPE.

This notion that the player would spurn his new team getting further assets is a specious one. Are you seriously suggesting that RP would not only take LeBron's teammate but would also spit in his face by not providing the standard going away TPE? He couldn't be an agent any more. LeBron took his career from selling jerseys out of his car to this. Its a preposterous suggestion.

At the end of the day this is all a useless exercise. We KNOW Rich Paul's game plan. He is doing exactly what he did last year with Bledsoe and I'm nearing certainty that the deal is going to get done at the last moment.

[DMAVS41]

I just don't see how a team starting KLove, Mozzy, and can still put LeBron at the 4 and they still have AV... NEEDS another 4. Especially one with such glaring holes in his game. In fact, I think its quite evident they need backcourt help substantially more.

Teams do what is in THEIR interests. So if a team is ready to jettison a well paid player they are likely rebuilding and getting some picks and the salary relief, and are able to give younger players bigger roles. Those teams aren't going to care if they make Cle good for the next few years. The risk is with the skyrocketing cap that no one is left that wants to dump salary at all, especially with the 1 year window. I think thats what Cleveland is dealing with with the existing 10M TPE.

This notion that the player would spurn his new team getting further assets is a specious one. Are you seriously suggesting that RP would not only take LeBron's teammate but would also spit in his face by not providing the standard going away TPE? He couldn't be an agent any more. LeBron took his career from selling jerseys out of his car to this. Its a preposterous suggestion.

At the end of the day this is all a useless exercise. We KNOW Rich Paul's game plan. He is doing exactly what he did last year with Bledsoe and I'm nearing certainty that the deal is going to get done at the last moment.

I feel like you don't understand where the NBA is headed. TT is able to make so much work defensively for this Cavs team when other teams go small.

Andy is not anywhere near the player TT is now. Andy won't play more than 10 to 15 minutes a game unless there are injuries...and even then that will just be to keep minutes down for everyone.

Your whole position is flawed because that flexibility you speak of isn't necessary when you have the loaded team the Cavs have...combined with that current trade exception...combined with normal exceptions going forward and draft picks.

You don't favor future flexibility when you have a guy like TT that, even at like 18 million a year, won't be hugely overpaid once the cap increase hits next summer.

And if it's just about money....dumping Andy after this year seems like a much better option than letting a 24 year old walk and miss out on his best years of his career.

So the Cavs can't really add anything if they don't sign TT unless it's some crazy scenario with a trade exception and I'd argue the quality of that player won't be as good as TT even under best case scenarios. And if they do bring back TT...they have other money saving moves they can make.

All evidence points to winning being the most important thing to Gilbert/Cavs...and bringing back TT is clearly the best thing for that. The money/tax can be figured out in other ways.

[HurricaneKid]

I feel like you don't understand where the NBA is headed. TT is able to make so much work defensively for this Cavs team when other teams go small.

Andy is not anywhere near the player TT is now. Andy won't play more than 10 to 15 minutes a game unless there are injuries...and even then that will just be to keep minutes down for everyone.

Your whole position is flawed because that flexibility you speak of isn't necessary when you have the loaded team the Cavs have...combined with that current trade exception...combined with normal exceptions going forward and draft picks.

You don't favor future flexibility when you have a guy like TT that, even at like 18 million a year, won't be hugely overpaid once the cap increase hits next summer.

And if it's just about money....dumping Andy after this year seems like a much better option than letting a 24 year old walk and miss out on his best years of his career.

So the Cavs can't really add anything if they don't sign TT unless it's some crazy scenario with a trade exception and I'd argue the quality of that player won't be as good as TT even under best case scenarios. And if they do bring back TT...they have other money saving moves they can make.

All evidence points to winning being the most important thing to Gilbert/Cavs...and bringing back TT is clearly the best thing for that. The money/tax can be figured out in other ways.

You overrate TTs defense. He still had a negative DBPM and has never been better than a .1 DBPM. Sure, he can switch PnRs. But its not like he doesn't get shredded when he switches out to Curry, etc. He can guard multiple positions but he cannot defend the 5 at all and he really can't do much with most 1s. And few teams run PnRs for 3/4s which he could probably handle comfortably. Furthermore, he is bad from the line, shot 35% in his career year over 3 ft from the basket, and is a substantially negative RAPM/BPM player and has been every single season of his career. Paying a guy more than 5/82 for a good playoff stretch is Jerome James-esque. Yes, this contract WILL haunt them. Both in lack of flexibility and in tax.

When other teams go small Cle should play KLove at the 5 and LBJ at the 4. Its the bigs we trot out to start for Team USA for crying out loud.

At the end of the day I'm not that far from your position. You almost certainly think higher of him than I do but I readily admit its a signing the Cavs pretty much HAVE to complete (can you imagine the Cavs losing in G7 because they had to play James Jones at the 4 again?). I just think the amounts cross the line and I would play hardball to get them back in line. I don't think a 6th/7th man is worth 18% of the cap (and that is who he is; the metrics absolutely confirm this). In fact, the Lakers just signed the reigning 6MoY for 7%.

[SwishSquared]

People comparing TT to DrayGod? Impact-wise? No, not at all. But it seemed TT's leaked negotiations influenced the terms of Dray's deal.
I just don't see how a team starting KLove, Mozzy, and can still put LeBron at the 4 and they still have AV... NEEDS another 4. Especially one with such glaring holes in his game. In fact, I think its quite evident they need backcourt help substantially more.So you you're banking on acquiring backcourt help via TPE with a likely late round first rounder in 2017 or later? They still have Osman's rights and future picks, but they, it appears, don't have the type of pieces needed to land somebody noteworthy with that huge hypothetical TPE. Heck, they barely have assets they'd be willing to part with to scoop up a $10M player during the next year. Losing TT and gaining two 2nd rounders, in your scenario, helps that cause?

Also, what's the fascination with playing Andy more than spot mins? If LBJ is the nominal 4th big man, why not just limit AV's minutes. When Cavs go small and slide LeBron to the 4, they lose rim protection by swapping out Mozgov for TT, but they can switch better on the PnR. Andy, Kaun, Love, etc. don't give them that type of versatility off the bench.

Also, if Rich Paul would take one of LBJ's closest teammates away from him, what's keeping him or the other team from facilitating a S&T? It hard-caps the new team and helps a potential title contender foe. Riley wouldn't oblige to a S&T when Houston wanted Bosh, Mavs didn't approach HOU about a S&T when they got Parsons, Houston didn't attempt to S&T Dwight away, DJ wasn't going to do a S&T if he left (from what I read/heard), Ellis didn't do a S&T when it would've helped Dallas, etc.

What makes you think a ticked-off Thompson would oblige? Because Rich Paul might anger LBJ even more, after taking away an important piece and close friend from his team? I'd guess that LBJ might be done with Paul if he loses out on TT. You're reasoning is pure speculation and no less "specious" than my post. Obtaining a hypothetical better fit via TPE in 2016 or beyond by assuming you complete a S&T for a player you might not sign next summer with a bare cupboard sounds nebulous, right?

Last summer we heard giving TT a big deal was the price of obtaining LBJ. So now Cleveland risks alienating LBJ by rolling the dice by giving TT an ultimatum via qualifying offer vs. team-friendly deal. You seem to not worry about this as much as others, which is fine, but something I don't understand.

The problem was giving Andy an extension when his health/play didn't warrant it. Overpaying TT isn't the problem, especially since he's clearly surpassed AV as a player.

Like I said, I go the conservative route in team-building when I have a top team. I sign TT and have the ability to trade him later on, when his play might outperform his contract value during his peak. Keeping everybody relatively happy is smart when you're competing for a title.

Note: I don't think TT is worth the money he's asking for, but I pay him since I view that as the better long-term move. Key is holding firm at $16M/year, which I think overvalues him but I'd rather pay the tax and him than risk losing him.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think what HurricaneKid is missing is that Tristan isn't just the backup PF... he's also the backup center. His versatility and ability to defend either frontcourt position makes him incredibly valuable in today's NBA. You can sit here and list the number of quality guys the Cavs have in their frontcourt and it's true... but, we're not just talking about a PF. We're talking about the only guy on the roster who can adequately play either forward or center regardless of the opponent and/or situation. He can play in big lineups or small ones.

It's hard for me to imagine that anyone watched this past year's playoffs and still wonders why he is valuable to this team. And, he's still just a 24-year-old who literally never misses a game... ever. He's also a great lockerroom presence. A true glue guy on and off the court who never complains about minutes or his role.

You can argue what his worth may or may not be, but let's not minimize his importance to this particular team.

[DMAVS41]

You overrate TTs defense. He still had a negative DBPM and has never been better than a .1 DBPM. Sure, he can switch PnRs. But its not like he doesn't get shredded when he switches out to Curry, etc. He can guard multiple positions but he cannot defend the 5 at all and he really can't do much with most 1s. And few teams run PnRs for 3/4s which he could probably handle comfortably. Furthermore, he is bad from the line, shot 35% in his career year over 3 ft from the basket, and is a substantially negative RAPM/BPM player and has been every single season of his career. Paying a guy more than 5/82 for a good playoff stretch is Jerome James-esque. Yes, this contract WILL haunt them. Both in lack of flexibility and in tax.

When other teams go small Cle should play KLove at the 5 and LBJ at the 4. Its the bigs we trot out to start for Team USA for crying out loud.

At the end of the day I'm not that far from your position. You almost certainly think higher of him than I do but I readily admit its a signing the Cavs pretty much HAVE to complete (can you imagine the Cavs losing in G7 because they had to play James Jones at the 4 again?). I just think the amounts cross the line and I would play hardball to get them back in line. I don't think a 6th/7th man is worth 18% of the cap (and that is who he is; the metrics absolutely confirm this). In fact, the Lakers just signed the reigning 6MoY for 7%.


I don't even think he's a great defender. I said he makes a lot work defensively for the Cavs. Which he does.

To the bold? Just no. Love at center will get raped. This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's why TT has a lot of value for this Cavs team. He can do things that no other big on that team can do.

What kind of player do you want around Kyrie, Love, and Lebron? You want either a great shooter and defender or a big that doesn't need the ball that can make an impact with hustle, defense, and rebounding. TT fits that second mold perfectly. And again, he's only going to get better.

[SwishSquared]

To reiterate RBA's point about TT's defense against other bigs, in addition to his PnR mobility:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202684/tracking/defense/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202684/tracking/defense/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Month=9

That's according to SportsVU player-tracking data for May & June. Didn't look up his rim protection stats for that period, but those provided #s improved compared to his RS #s. He stepped up in the playoffs and those numbers back up the eye test. Risking him walking isn't smart imo just to save taxes and bank on a S&T, then a subsequent trade to make use of the TPE.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Thompson's definately not worth that much money. Unfortunately he's the best hustle guy and best rebounder on the team. I bet if Cleveland (or any other NBA team for that matter) give him all that money, he's gonna instantly become a scrub.

[G-train]

I think what HurricaneKid is missing is that Tristan isn't just the backup PF... he's also the backup center.

And to be real he is likely the starting power forward or centre for significant chunks at a time.
There will be injuries over next 3-5 seasons or so while Cavs are in title contention mode, and they won't do it without him.

[Lebron23]

He'll stay with the Cavaliers.

[PP34Deuce]

You said those other contracts were signed in a different market when 4 of the 5 of them were signed this offseason. THAT is why I called you intellectually dishonest.

You ALWAYS have to overpay FAs. My contention is that that overpay is 15M. In today's NBA you need to either have elite players on a rookie deal, or superstars that aren't compensated properly because of the limitations placed in the CBA. The best three players last year were on the last three teams to advance. All three were horrifyingly underpaid (Curry 11M, Harden 13.7, LBJ 20) for what they contribute. There is no possibility of getting value out of TT at 17M/. There just isn't. He can never be more than a role player. And role players don't get deals like 5/94. He just happens to be a FA at the perfect time. The truth is his defense is overstated, he doesn't protect the rim, and is AWFUL from >3 ft.

Anytime you give a 24 yr old an extension you are HOPING he continues to improve. But the truth is given his substantial limitations its quite possible that this contract becomes one of the worst in the league. His upside is just minimal. Your argument is that he gets 15M+ on the open market but there haven't even been any whispers at this point of a team with space making a move. And if there were value to extract you would think something would be out there.

I certainly don't think the Cavs, with their glut of front court players can possibly get value out of him at that price point. On the other hand, teams are going to be throwing money at a bad FA class next year or be below the salary floor so guys are going to get undeserved money this year. Its more about figuring out how to have a year or two of wildly overpaid players and trying to fix your salary distribution thereafter.

He's a younger Reggie Evans with a slightly higher ceiling. He's not a rim protector and is adequate at switching on 2-4. he can't guard 5's and he will get torched with athletic 1's.

[HurricaneKid]

I don't even think he's a great defender. I said he makes a lot work defensively for the Cavs. Which he does.

To the bold? Just no. Love at center will get raped. This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's why TT has a lot of value for this Cavs team. He can do things that no other big on that team can do.

What kind of player do you want around Kyrie, Love, and Lebron? You want either a great shooter and defender or a big that doesn't need the ball that can make an impact with hustle, defense, and rebounding. TT fits that second mold perfectly. And again, he's only going to get better.

He has some flexibility to be sure. But when you are a significantly negative player for 4 years and you have a good playoff series in a playoff run immediately preceding your FA, we have to decide who a guy is. I think he is closer to the guy he was for 4 years. You think he is closer to the guy he was for a month.

You can only go small when the other team has their backup bigs in. Which is also the only time TT can play C because he gets destroyed by most starting Cs. If you think GSW are going to post Dray against KLove you are mistaken. Hardly any posting occurs at all these days and almost certainly none for backup bigs. And KLove has a career reb rate is 20.1%. TTs is 16.7%. He isn't going to get destroyed on the boards any more than TT is.

No, you want spacing around LBJ, so give me the 4 that can shoot. Don't you dare try to tell me a player that shoots 35% from >3 ft is going to help LBJ. Especially when we have an entire season of data saying Love was significantly better, even if he "disappointed". And you want a rim protector at C. Which TT is not even remotely close to. Which is why when everyone was healthy he came off the bench. And why he will always play behind Mozzy and KLove.

And get better? Why do you assume he will get better? He is an energy big that is flexible defensively and can off rebound. Those aren't skill sets you can develop. They are reliant on energy that he is likely to lose over time (and after signing a 80-100M deal). Better than he played in the postseason? Or better than the below avg NBA player he has been in the regular season every year of his career?

He can start for a handful of teams. Or he can come off the bench for most. Thats not a harsh criticism, its just who he is. And that isn't worth what they are demanding.

[CarlosBoozer]

Overpay him, I hate it but it's the best decision in my opinion.

[HurricaneKid]

Impact-wise? No, not at all. But it seemed TT's leaked negotiations influenced the terms of Dray's deal.So you you're banking on acquiring backcourt help via TPE with a likely late round first rounder in 2017 or later? They still have Osman's rights and future picks, but they, it appears, don't have the type of pieces needed to land somebody noteworthy with that huge hypothetical TPE. Heck, they barely have assets they'd be willing to part with to scoop up a $10M player during the next year. Losing TT and gaining two 2nd rounders, in your scenario, helps that cause?

Also, what's the fascination with playing Andy more than spot mins? If LBJ is the nominal 4th big man, why not just limit AV's minutes. When Cavs go small and slide LeBron to the 4, they lose rim protection by swapping out Mozgov for TT, but they can switch better on the PnR. Andy, Kaun, Love, etc. don't give them that type of versatility off the bench.

Also, if Rich Paul would take one of LBJ's closest teammates away from him, what's keeping him or the other team from facilitating a S&T? It hard-caps the new team and helps a potential title contender foe. Riley wouldn't oblige to a S&T when Houston wanted Bosh, Mavs didn't approach HOU about a S&T when they got Parsons, Houston didn't attempt to S&T Dwight away, DJ wasn't going to do a S&T if he left (from what I read/heard), Ellis didn't do a S&T when it would've helped Dallas, etc.

What makes you think a ticked-off Thompson would oblige? Because Rich Paul might anger LBJ even more, after taking away an important piece and close friend from his team? I'd guess that LBJ might be done with Paul if he loses out on TT. You're reasoning is pure speculation and no less "specious" than my post. Obtaining a hypothetical better fit via TPE in 2016 or beyond by assuming you complete a S&T for a player you might not sign next summer with a bare cupboard sounds nebulous, right?

Last summer we heard giving TT a big deal was the price of obtaining LBJ. So now Cleveland risks alienating LBJ by rolling the dice by giving TT an ultimatum via qualifying offer vs. team-friendly deal. You seem to not worry about this as much as others, which is fine, but something I don't understand.

The problem was giving Andy an extension when his health/play didn't warrant it. Overpaying TT isn't the problem, especially since he's clearly surpassed AV as a player.

Like I said, I go the conservative route in team-building when I have a top team. I sign TT and have the ability to trade him later on, when his play might outperform his contract value during his peak. Keeping everybody relatively happy is smart when you're competing for a title.

Note: I don't think TT is worth the money he's asking for, but I pay him since I view that as the better long-term move. Key is holding firm at $16M/year, which I think overvalues him but I'd rather pay the tax and him than risk losing him.

No, I'm saying they GIVE UP 2nds to get the TPE.

Why would TT oblige? Because every player ever has. You don't tell your new team you refuse to make them better out of spite. It doesn't go over well.

What is the fascination with AV? TT's career best BPM (or RAPM, whatever adjusted +/- you want to use) is -.5. AVs for the last 7 years are 1.6, 3.0, .8, 2.6, 4.6, 2.7, .9. We'll see how he recovers from a nasty injury but he has been a FAR better player than TT has ever been.

TTs play has a 0% chance of outperforming his salary. You will only ever be able to trade him with picks in a salary dump. Period.

They offered him MORE THAN 16M/ for 5 years. He won't even meet with the team. So how much more are you willing to pay him?

[CarlosBoozer]

I hate how injury prone Kyrie, Love and Varejao are :facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

He's a younger Reggie Evans with a slightly higher ceiling. He's not a rim protector and is adequate at switching on 2-4. he can't guard 5's and he will get torched with athletic 1's.
He actually does defend 5s often, so it isn't a matter of "can't"... he "does."

I've now seen a couple of references to Reggie Evans, so let's clear that up, shall we? First of all, Reggie Evans came into the league at age 22, is now 35, and has never averaged close to a double-double in his career.

I know the argument that is going to be made ... "Well, if Reggie Evans had gotten enough minutes, he'd match that production."

Except, here's the counter to that assumption... guys who are ordinarily unable to break even the 20 minute per game barrier on bad teams are not being played for a reason. Twice in Evans completely mediocre 13 year career has he played north of 24 minutes per game and, in both years (2011 in Toronto and 2013 in Brooklyn) his production and efficiency quickly leveled off and declined.

Evans' most active season from a minutes per game standpoint was 2011. He averaged 4.4 points in 27 minutes per night and did so on 40% from the field, abysmal for a bigman. Meanwhile, the Raptors were 11-19 with him on the floor. He only was able to play in 30 games, which also isn't a coincidence and is just another signal that Evans has no business playing north of 25 minutes a game.

Contrast that with Tristan Thompson. He entered the league at 20 and, in his rookie year, averaged almost double the points as Evans ever has. He has been in the league for just four years, is still only 24, and is basically a walking double-double.

Instead of wearing down and getting injured the more minutes he plays, Tristan's role on the team has increased every year and he has now played in all 82 games (and every playoff game) in three straight seasons.

Evans has never had even close to the impact in his decade and a half in the league on a good team as TT did last year... just his 4th in the league. Evans wouldn't be able to, because he just isn't close to as good. The only thing they have in common is rebounding and Tristan is probably the best offensive rebounder in the NBA. Tristan is a far better offensive and defensive player.

TT may not be an All Star yet. He may never be that kind of player. But, he's closer to that than he is to freaking Reggie Evans.

Evans is a glue guy on a bad team. Tristan is a glue guy on a good team. There's a big difference between those two things.

[Hey Yo]

League source (for what it's worth) says the 2 sides aren't that far apart money wise.

http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/08/18/scotto-top-10-free-agents-of-2016/

[SwishSquared]

No, I'm saying they GIVE UP 2nds to get the TPE.

Why would TT oblige? Because every player ever has. You don't tell your new team you refuse to make them better out of spite. It doesn't go over well.

What is the fascination with AV? TT's career best BPM (or RAPM, whatever adjusted +/- you want to use) is -.5. AVs for the last 7 years are 1.6, 3.0, .8, 2.6, 4.6, 2.7, .9. We'll see how he recovers from a nasty injury but he has been a FAR better player than TT has ever been.

TTs play has a 0% chance of outperforming his salary. You will only ever be able to trade him with picks in a salary dump. Period.

They offered him MORE THAN 16M/ for 5 years. He won't even meet with the team. So how much more are you willing to pay him?I gave examples where players/new teams didn't even try to do the S&T when they could have- all being relatively recent examples. The team signing TT would then be hard-capped, which wouldn't help them with other moves that season (namely trading for a player on a large salary). Teams try to keep that flexibility if they're smart. Pretty sure Lopez, LMA, Affalo, and Matthews could have given Portland sizeable exceptions but they didn't- and they left on good terms.

You stipulate that TT would be happy to help, when I said there's a risk he's so mad he doesn't oblige. Wouldn't Ellis have helped out Dallas if he agreed to a S&T involving Hibbert? He didn't because he was upset with the organization. Indy even had a snafu with the ordering of contracts and had time to reach out to complete a S&T. Just because it's happened in the past doesn't mean TT will do it in the future. Like I said, I posit LBJ would be done with Paul if TT isn't a Cavalier. There's a risk TT cuts ties with the organization. Pure speculation, but no different than what you've been presenting.

Also note that even if Cleveland obtains a couple 2nd rounders, they have little to offer to trade for somebody outside likely late first rounders and some Euro stashes. That's something, but not much, and I've maintained not enough to trade for a big money player, as you said would be a target of the TPE. Sure, you can get smaller pieces, but would you trade a quarter for a 2 dimes and a nickel? For a title-chasing team, I wouldn't.

Look, I understand the player Andy was, but his BMP has trended downward for 3 straight seasons and is coming off the most debilitating injury for an NBA player. He's a big man with an injury history- I'd wager TT probably is the better player now and going forward, barring a great recovery (certainly possible, but I'm not banking on it). Also note that player tracking data for this past season has Andy as a far worse man defender in terms of opponent FG% than TT, especially if you look at Thompson's #s in the playoffs in May and June (I provided those links in a previous post). Andy had good player-tracking defensive stats in 2013-2014, but he may never be that guy anymore. He also had worse rim protection stats than Boris Diaw that season (in terms of points saved/gm) fwiw.

You are fine to think TT's deal will be a salary dump candidate in a few years- I think in the next 2-3 years you can still trade him and not have to dump that many picks to get rid of him. I think he can still be trade filler in a larger deal, especially when the cap is in the low 9-figures.

I didn't say it's likely he lives up to the deal or outperforms it, but I said the relative certainty of his production (with some upside left) is the better bet vs. assuming a S&T occurs where you get a couple 2nd rounders and a big TPE to include in a package for a backcourt player(s) that's more useful than TT. I think the 2nd scenario assumes too many things (not just the S&T, but the bet that you can get a better player than him with relatively few trade assets). I think we disagree here and that's fine. I disagree with your analysis to get to your end result, and it seems you disagree with mine. Good convo though

:cheers:

[RedBlackAttack]

Look, I understand the player Andy was, but his BMP has trended downward for 3 straight seasons and is coming off the most debilitating injury for an NBA player. He's a big man with an injury history- I'd wager TT probably is the better player now and going forward, barring a great recovery (certainly possible, but I'm not banking on it). Also note that player tracking data for this past season has Andy as a far worse man defender in terms of opponent FG% than TT, especially if you look at Thompson's #s in the playoffs in May and June (I provided those links in a previous post). Andy had good player-tracking defensive stats in 2013-2014, but he may never be that guy anymore. He also had worse rim protection stats than Boris Diaw that season (in terms of points saved/gm) fwiw.
Very good post.

On the quoted portion above, it goes beyond just the statistics with Andy too. He peaked in the 2012-13 season before the injury that knocked him out of that season. That version of Andy was better than Tristan is right now. In fact, for the 25 games before they discovered a blood clot in his lung, he was playing at an All-Star level without question.

However, since that season, he has been steadily declining, most notably on defense which once was a strength. He is no longer the defender that Tristan is and combine that with the fact that they're both elite rebounders and TT literally never misses a second of action, Tristan is the better player at this point.

The part that I don't get about the Andy argument -- assuming he comes back and is close to the 2013 version which is a stretch -- is the notion that having one (Andy) means the other is expendable (Tristan). Varejao is now 32. Tristan is a full eight years younger. The whole idea would seem to me for Tristan to learn from a true pro like Andy, continue improving his game (as he has over his first four years) and eventually completely replace Varejao in a few years when Andy is ready for a front office job.

This isn't just about next year or even the year after. The Cavs have one of the best players 23 and younger in the league to go along with a still very young 26-year-old Olympian. Tristan's status on the team isn't just about the "now," but also the future.

Even a slight overpay is preferable to losing him completely over a couple million dollars a year... especially with the cap jump coming. I can't stress this enough... Tristan isn't going anywhere. It would make no sense for the Cavs to let it get to that point.

[bobopenguin]

Even a slight overpay is preferable to losing him completely over a couple million dollars a year... especially with the cap jump coming. I can't stress this enough... Tristan isn't going anywhere. It would make no sense for the Cavs to let it get to that point.

i dont understand u guys.
5yrs 94mil can get u DeAndre Jordan type aka DPOY of players.. and u guys actually willing to spend that on TT who's gonna play 20-25min per game max?

look at this
Bron - upcoming 30mil +
Irving - 15mil +
K.Love - 20mil +
TT - 18mil + (wtf?)
Mozgov - gonna ask for 15mil + now


GG guys. how are u going to trade any of these players in future if something goes wrong.

and also, u shouldnt satisfy all these role players. u shouldnt get into a habit of agree on anything agent asks for. once u give this guy 15mil +. every other 10+10 guys will start asking for 20mil, then resulting in another lock out.

U cant have all the players u want. U gotta let it go.

[PleezeBelieve]

Pay Tristan 18 Mill annually and Mosgov will want 21 Mill per a year from now.

This thread is crazy. Mosgov is the priority and true difference naker, not Tristan.

[bdreason]

I've heard LeBron is gonna get close to $40m per year when he re-signs. If TT is gonna get $18m per, then MozGod is worth at least $20m per.

[RedBlackAttack]

i dont understand u guys.
5yrs 94mil can get u DeAndre Jordan type aka DPOY of players.
Except we don't own Jordan's Bird rights, so it's a moot point and a worthless one. The Cavs can only look at how they can build the best possible team, as long as Gilbert is willing to pay. Once again and for the 100th time in this thread alone, the Cavs cannot just go out and "get" a DeAndre Jordan or even another Tristan Thompson if they let him walk. In fact, nothing changes if he walks or if he signs for $94 million. Flexibility for the foreseeable future is very limited regardless of what happens with this contract and signing Thompson will not restrict our ability to re-sign Mozgov next year.

Also, to address your point about "agreeing to whatever role players ask for," I think the fact that the Cavs have still not agreed to anything with Thompson and we're now nearing September, it's a sign that they're not just carelessly throwing money around without a second thought.

This is a complex situation and breaking it down to "they could get Jordan for $94 million" completely whiffs on the actual situation. It's been stated and restated countless times now, so I guess one more isn't going to help.

Also, I'll reiterate that, while a salary in the $15-19 million range may look crazy right now, it won't two years from now when $15 million a year is looked at the way $8-10 million contracts are right now.

That's it. I'm done.

[bdreason]

Give him the QO offer. See how the season goes. That's what I would do.




I'm just fukcing with you RBA.

[bobopenguin]

Also, I'll reiterate that, while a salary in the $15-19 million range may look crazy right now, it won't two years from now when $15 million a year is looked at the way $8-10 million contracts are right now.

That's it. I'm done.

u have to take future into consideration.

everytime u giving out a big contract, ppl will want more.
u dont control the situation, every single play gonna start asking big money.
it's bad for nba.
u first give out 5mil contract, few years later u give 10mil, then 15mil, then 20mil, later, no one will accept lower than 20mil contract, and where u gonna get those money from? u have to control these contracts.

[PleezeBelieve]

Homer RBA is full effect in this thread.

"Pay Tristan whatever he wants. Cavs are over the cap anyway. Who cares. No different to pay him 11 Mill or 19 Mill."

:roll:

[Springsteen]

I think they're probably gonna lose Mozgov. No way theyre gonna be able to pay him with all these contracts AND Lebron's max coming next season.

[HurricaneKid]

I gave examples where players/new teams didn't even try to do the S&T when they could have- all being relatively recent examples. The team signing TT would then be hard-capped, which wouldn't help them with other moves that season (namely trading for a player on a large salary). Teams try to keep that flexibility if they're smart. Pretty sure Lopez, LMA, Affalo, and Matthews could have given Portland sizeable exceptions but they didn't- and they left on good terms.

You stipulate that TT would be happy to help, when I said there's a risk he's so mad he doesn't oblige. Wouldn't Ellis have helped out Dallas if he agreed to a S&T involving Hibbert? He didn't because he was upset with the organization. Indy even had a snafu with the ordering of contracts and had time to reach out to complete a S&T. Just because it's happened in the past doesn't mean TT will do it in the future. Like I said, I posit LBJ would be done with Paul if TT isn't a Cavalier. There's a risk TT cuts ties with the organization. Pure speculation, but no different than what you've been presenting.

Also note that even if Cleveland obtains a couple 2nd rounders, they have little to offer to trade for somebody outside likely late first rounders and some Euro stashes. That's something, but not much, and I've maintained not enough to trade for a big money player, as you said would be a target of the TPE. Sure, you can get smaller pieces, but would you trade a quarter for a 2 dimes and a nickel? For a title-chasing team, I wouldn't.

Look, I understand the player Andy was, but his BMP has trended downward for 3 straight seasons and is coming off the most debilitating injury for an NBA player. He's a big man with an injury history- I'd wager TT probably is the better player now and going forward, barring a great recovery (certainly possible, but I'm not banking on it). Also note that player tracking data for this past season has Andy as a far worse man defender in terms of opponent FG% than TT, especially if you look at Thompson's #s in the playoffs in May and June (I provided those links in a previous post). Andy had good player-tracking defensive stats in 2013-2014, but he may never be that guy anymore. He also had worse rim protection stats than Boris Diaw that season (in terms of points saved/gm) fwiw.

You are fine to think TT's deal will be a salary dump candidate in a few years- I think in the next 2-3 years you can still trade him and not have to dump that many picks to get rid of him. I think he can still be trade filler in a larger deal, especially when the cap is in the low 9-figures.

I didn't say it's likely he lives up to the deal or outperforms it, but I said the relative certainty of his production (with some upside left) is the better bet vs. assuming a S&T occurs where you get a couple 2nd rounders and a big TPE to include in a package for a backcourt player(s) that's more useful than TT. I think the 2nd scenario assumes too many things (not just the S&T, but the bet that you can get a better player than him with relatively few trade assets). I think we disagree here and that's fine. I disagree with your analysis to get to your end result, and it seems you disagree with mine. Good convo though

:cheers:

Portland STILL has room for a max contract. Why would they give up anything to get a TPE? And they are like 60M short of the salary FLOOR for next year. a TPE does literally NOTHING at all for them. Similarly, Dallas had max space for Deandre and when that fell through there was zero reason to compensate Indy to get the TPE. Your examples ring hollow.

As far as what the Cavs could get with the TPE, Joe Johnson sticks out to me. He has one more year with NJ and then he is a UFA. NJ is rebuilding and has no use for him. So he could essentially sign a market deal on a S&T with Cle for the TPE and Osman/late 1/2 2nds. I think JJ improves the team at a position of need.

I don't know what Andy is going to be back from injury. But he has been better than TT by A LOT for a LONG TIME. I think Cle should be using LBJ against backup 4s as they are largely the same guys he has been guarding at the 3 for a decade. Which makes TT a little redundant. Especially with Mozzy and Andy at the 5. I'm not saying he isn't great for depth or a welcome injury replacement. I just think when you build a team you need to use your assets wisely and spending 18%+ of the salary cap for someone who is BARELY second team at two positions and almost 3rd team at both, that portion of your salary.

But your analysis is sound. We'll just have to disagree on this one. I do think this is largely a philosophical debate as Rich Paul would NEVER do anything to weaken LBJs standing. And a role player shirking an 80M+ guaranty seems an absurdly large gamble to take. If you won the lotto would you take the winning ticket to the casino to try to make more or would you cash it in? And it appears clear to me that this deal is going to get done as time runs out at the end of September.

[HurricaneKid]

I think they're probably gonna lose Mozgov. No way theyre gonna be able to pay him with all these contracts AND Lebron's max coming next season.

As long as they are willing to write the check that is exactly what Bird Rights do.

[Lebron23]

Dan Gilbert is willing to pay. All the guy care is for his team to win.

[RedBlackAttack]

Homer RBA is full effect in this thread.

"Pay Tristan whatever he wants. Cavs are over the cap anyway. Who cares. No different to pay him 11 Mill or 19 Mill."

:roll:
#rentfree

[AnaheimLakers24]

Surprise surprise :rolleyes:
LeLittle stans undervaluing one of the best rebounding hustle bigs.
2/6
400 million and no ring this years :lol
LeLittle

[SwishSquared]

Portland STILL has room for a max contract. Why would they give up anything to get a TPE? And they are like 60M short of the salary FLOOR for next year. a TPE does literally NOTHING at all for them. Similarly, Dallas had max space for Deandre and when that fell through there was zero reason to compensate Indy to get the TPE. Your examples ring hollow.

As far as what the Cavs could get with the TPE, Joe Johnson sticks out to me. He has one more year with NJ and then he is a UFA. NJ is rebuilding and has no use for him. So he could essentially sign a market deal on a S&T with Cle for the TPE and Osman/late 1/2 2nds. I think JJ improves the team at a position of need.

I don't know what Andy is going to be back from injury. But he has been better than TT by A LOT for a LONG TIME. I think Cle should be using LBJ against backup 4s as they are largely the same guys he has been guarding at the 3 for a decade. Which makes TT a little redundant. Especially with Mozzy and Andy at the 5. I'm not saying he isn't great for depth or a welcome injury replacement. I just think when you build a team you need to use your assets wisely and spending 18%+ of the salary cap for someone who is BARELY second team at two positions and almost 3rd team at both, that portion of your salary.

But your analysis is sound. We'll just have to disagree on this one. I do think this is largely a philosophical debate as Rich Paul would NEVER do anything to weaken LBJs standing. And a role player shirking an 80M+ guaranty seems an absurdly large gamble to take. If you won the lotto would you take the winning ticket to the casino to try to make more or would you cash it in? And it appears clear to me that this deal is going to get done as time runs out at the end of September.I stated several posts back that hypothetically TT's new team won't need a S&T to acquire him due to the glut of coming cap space. It wouldn't make sense for the new team to do a S&T for him since it hard caps them and strengthens CLE. Not to mention TT could possibly be a top 5 FA next summer. You're the one who originated the idea that a team that signs TT will result in a S&T, netting CLE the big TPE and hypothetically a return of 2 second round picks.

Subsequently, I brought up guys who *could* have given their previous teams a sizeable exception as they were exiting disgruntled (not the former Blazers, but the others are factually correct in this regard), which I stated TT could pull a similar move if the relationship is strained that much.

Regardless, you don't have to give up a pick in a S&T- even something like $5K in cash considerations is sufficient.

Sure, Rich Paul could steer TT somewhere that needs a S&T to get him, but we saw this summer the negative outcome that can occur if an agent tries to steer his client to a certain team (see Dan Fegan, who steered DJ, Dwight, & Parsons to Dallas initially).

Anyways, I see Paul being toast if TT isn't a Cavalier. Pure opinion. It's philosophical, as you said, and TT will be signed in a couple weeks, I bet.

My point is why bet on the health of Andy and Love (who both have had issues playing full seasons) when hunting for a title when you have an effective, young big man willing to stay with your organization for the long haul. He will cost a fortune, but I'd rather have him than only bank on LBJ, Varejao, and Kaun being the rest of your big rotation. I do like LBJ's effectiveness as a PF in today's league, but you need another guy you can rely on. I think TT, for this time, is that guy and he'd still be moveable, sans salary dump.

Additionally, Joe Johnson is an expiring contract, so even if they got a massive TPE from a Thompson S&T next summer, JJ would already be a FA. They would also have needed to rope in at least 1 additional team to make this transaction work this summer, as Haywood's contract would have been required to make JJ a Cavalier. Brooklyn would get rid of JJ imo, for the cost savings alone.

I think Jr Smith is more effective and cheaper than JJ now, anyway, due to Johnson's health problems and declining defense. No team has really attempted to sign TT and both Portland and Philly have little interest right now. So that rules out receiving any large TPE this offseason for TT or making a big money trade w/o including one of the key players.

I never argued that Andy was inferior at his peak to TT, but I'm thinking that Thompson surpassed his current overall level of play during this year, especially during the playoffs. I would bet on TT outplaying Andy for the remainder of Varejao's contract, so I would re-sign TT. I know it's a huge overpay, but we all knew TT would get too much money once LBJ came back to Cleveland.

For me, it's too many moving parts to roll the dice on the QO and hope to make subsequent trades, especially since CLE has its core group now (again, with few juicy trade assets that they're willing to move) and wants to use the current crop as the foundation for a title team during LBJ's last elite years.

[T_L_P]

Pay Tristan 18 Mill annually and Mosgov will want 21 Mill per a year from now.

This thread is crazy. Mosgov is the priority and true difference naker, not Tristan.
:cheers:

[HurricaneKid]

I stated several posts back that hypothetically TT's new team won't need a S&T to acquire him due to the glut of coming cap space. It wouldn't make sense for the new team to do a S&T for him since it hard caps them and strengthens CLE. Not to mention TT could possibly be a top 5 FA next summer. You're the one who originated the idea that a team that signs TT will result in a S&T, netting CLE the big TPE and hypothetically a return of 2 second round picks.

Subsequently, I brought up guys who *could* have given their previous teams a sizeable exception as they were exiting disgruntled (not the former Blazers, but the others are factually correct in this regard), which I stated TT could pull a similar move if the relationship is strained that much.

Regardless, you don't have to give up a pick in a S&T- even something like $5K in cash considerations is sufficient.

Sure, Rich Paul could steer TT somewhere that needs a S&T to get him, but we saw this summer the negative outcome that can occur if an agent tries to steer his client to a certain team (see Dan Fegan, who steered DJ, Dwight, & Parsons to Dallas initially).

Anyways, I see Paul being toast if TT isn't a Cavalier. Pure opinion. It's philosophical, as you said, and TT will be signed in a couple weeks, I bet.

My point is why bet on the health of Andy and Love (who both have had issues playing full seasons) when hunting for a title when you have an effective, young big man willing to stay with your organization for the long haul. He will cost a fortune, but I'd rather have him than only bank on LBJ, Varejao, and Kaun being the rest of your big rotation. I do like LBJ's effectiveness as a PF in today's league, but you need another guy you can rely on. I think TT, for this time, is that guy and he'd still be moveable, sans salary dump.

Additionally, Joe Johnson is an expiring contract, so even if they got a massive TPE from a Thompson S&T next summer, JJ would already be a FA. They would also have needed to rope in at least 1 additional team to make this transaction work this summer, as Haywood's contract would have been required to make JJ a Cavalier. Brooklyn would get rid of JJ imo, for the cost savings alone.

I think Jr Smith is more effective and cheaper than JJ now, anyway, due to Johnson's health problems and declining defense. No team has really attempted to sign TT and both Portland and Philly have little interest right now. So that rules out receiving any large TPE this offseason for TT or making a big money trade w/o including one of the key players.

I never argued that Andy was inferior at his peak to TT, but I'm thinking that Thompson surpassed his current overall level of play during this year, especially during the playoffs. I would bet on TT outplaying Andy for the remainder of Varejao's contract, so I would re-sign TT. I know it's a huge overpay, but we all knew TT would get too much money once LBJ came back to Cleveland.

For me, it's too many moving parts to roll the dice on the QO and hope to make subsequent trades, especially since CLE has its core group now (again, with few juicy trade assets that they're willing to move) and wants to use the current crop as the foundation for a title team during LBJ's last elite years.

No, I have repeatedly corrected this point. If a team can sign TT under the cap (and almost every team will be under the cap next year) they don't have to do a SnT. But there is literally no reason for them not to allow Cle to do it if it nets them a few picks/rights on Euro stashes, etc. SO CLE WOULD BE THE ONE GIVING UP THE TWO 2nd rd PICKS. It doesn't impact the signing team AT ALL other than picking up 3-5M in compensation to do the deal Cle's way.

We repeatedly hear about how TT stepped up this playoffs. And he DID. But are we seriously going to take a 20 game sample over his career 306 game sample?

He had a great run against Sullinger/Olynyk/Bass/Zeller, an injured Noah/injured Pau/rookie Mirotic, an undersized Milsap/M Scott, and a comically undersized H Barnes and you think he is going to get to play against optimal opponents for the rest of his career? Or maybe, just maybe, the sample size of >300 games is a better predictor for future success?

The JJ talk is a little out there but there were discussions before the Nets dumped DWill and JJ wants to play with Cle. All he has to do is tell NJ to sign him using their bird rights and Cle gives a 2nd/cash considerations and the TPE to NJN who get free assets for a UFA they had no designs on re-signing.

[SwishSquared]

No, I have repeatedly corrected this point. If a team can sign TT under the cap (and almost every team will be under the cap next year) they don't have to do a SnT. But there is literally no reason for them not to allow Cle to do it if it nets them a few picks/rights on Euro stashes, etc. SO CLE WOULD BE THE ONE GIVING UP THE TWO 2nd rd PICKS. It doesn't impact the signing team AT ALL other than picking up 3-5M in compensation to do the deal Cle's way.

We repeatedly hear about how TT stepped up this playoffs. And he DID. But are we seriously going to take a 20 game sample over his career 306 game sample?

He had a great run against Sullinger/Olynyk/Bass/Zeller, an injured Noah/injured Pau/rookie Mirotic, an undersized Milsap/M Scott, and a comically undersized H Barnes and you think he is going to get to play against optimal opponents for the rest of his career? Or maybe, just maybe, the sample size of >300 games is a better predictor for future success?

The JJ talk is a little out there but there were discussions before the Nets dumped DWill and JJ wants to play with Cle. All he has to do is tell NJ to sign him using their bird rights and Cle gives a 2nd/cash considerations and the TPE to NJN who get free assets for a UFA they had no designs on re-signing.OK, I read back the past couple pages and see I misread where you said CLE surrenders the picks. I still contend that, going back several posts, that a team wouldn't help CLE. Hard caps the new squad in order to gain two late 2nd rounders + a Euro stash and helps out Cleveland. That's too little in compensation for the reduced flexibility, not to mention that TT could still cut ties (if TT leaves, Rich Paul would get dumped by LBJ, as I've said many times. That means TT wouldn't need to help out the Cavs at all).

You may find a scenario where that works out, but again, that's betting that the new team obliges. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you provide an example where a high profile FA (TT will be this next summer) leaves a title contender and the receiving team and TT were both open to consummating a S&T. Maybe it "always happens" as you contend, but I can't think of one.

Additionally, CLE would only have late firsts and pick swaps to land a big salary player in a subsequent trade. Not the type of assets that land you a big money player if you receive that big TPE. Also, I'm pretty sure that Cleveland has to lose somebody key next summer if they want to receive a player in a S&T next offseason. They'll hit the hard cap and be restricted with moves for that calendar year. It's much easier and smarter to use a TPE to acquired a player already under contract given their cap sheet (I know you know this, but still...). So that scenario doesn't even work. I know you're spitballing, but I wouldn't even try to do something like that.

Sure, it's better to use a larger sample size. That's obvious- however, go check the player tracking data- TT's improves defensively quite a bit as the season progresses. He feasted on the EC opponents- the people CLE needs to defeat to reach the Finals. I actually think Cleveland beats the Dubs if both Kyrie and Love were healthy. TT/Mozgov overpowered Bogut and Dray. LBJ was the only "big" CLE had that could score inside and handle double teams- that's why going small was so successful. CLE's remaining bigs pushed DPoY candidate Bogut right out of the Finals due to the matchups.

But I also think that sans TT, Cleveland wouldn't have made the Finals given the injury issues. No big man available in FA will offer that, especially at the price CLE can afford. Who are you going to target with a TPE that may not materialize and with limited trade assets? That unknown pushes me in the camp to pay TT this summer.

This isn't quantifiable, but Kyrie and TT for the first time in the NBA had real stakes this past season as they chased a title. I think that's important- they weren't losing as much as they were in the past and they had LBJ and vets around as they gained experience on a winning team. That's why people say Team USA experience impacts guys positively- there's something real to play for and you get to win on a big stage.

Both those guys showed up and improved little-by-little. I wouldn't expect them to plateau or trend downward yet, given their age/experience. That's a reason why I keep the team together.

I respect your stance and analysis but I think we reached an impasse. We're not really giving up ground and we're back to where we were a couple pages back haha.

[JohnMax]

Report: Tristan Thompson rejected $80 million contract offer from Cavaliers because his perceived peers got more

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/19/report-tristan-thompson-rejected-80-million-contract-offer-from-cavaliers-because-his-perceived-peers-got-more/comment-page-1/#comments

[bobopenguin]

Report: Tristan Thompson rejected $80 million contract offer from Cavaliers because his perceived peers got more

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/19/report-tristan-thompson-rejected-80-million-contract-offer-from-cavaliers-because-his-perceived-peers-got-more/comment-page-1/#comments

:facepalm

[VeeCee15]

tristan is the best rebounder in the nba
he doesn't stat pad by trying to get a lot of the easy defensive rebounds..he just plays hard and tries to win not stat pad. If he wanted to be like dwight or some other defensive rebounder padder he could avg 15+ rbs a game

best rebounder in nba