Reggie Miller, Stephen A. Smith, and Skip Bayless all take Bird over LeBron

[JohnMax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw2YN30NGGI

[CJ Mustard]

:roll: Stephen A's hairline gets further back every time I see the nikka.

[CelticBaller]

:roll: Stephen A's hairline gets further back every time I see the nikka.
holy shit :oldlol:

[Beastmode88]

:roll: Stephen A's hairline gets further back every time I see the nikka.

comparable to bron bron.

[J Shuttlesworth]

SAS has LeBron as a top 5 player all time, and Skip has him as top 7

[eliteballer]

If Bird was on the 2011 Mavs instead of Dirk, what happens? Sweep?

[JohnMax]

And he had zero athleticism and didn't need to use his off arm against smaller defenders while bull dozing to get lay ups.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP takes LeBron over Bird for free rent though

http://i.imgur.com/FBTJiju.png

[ShawkFactory]

And he had zero athleticism and didn't need to use his off arm against smaller defenders while bull dozing to get lay ups.
Another person who posts excessively on here without knowing a single thing about basketball.

You probably should kill yourself...and soon. Low life piece of shit.

[Angel Face]

Who wouldn't...

Bird was more clutch and it's not even close, about the same play maker, better shooter and doesn't need to hog the ball like LeBron to produce.

Bird > Lebron all day.

[DonDadda59]

Man, Bird in this era with more spacing, an emphasis on jump-shooting, no touching on the perimeter... cot damn, he'd be Dirk on steroids with infinitely better play-making/passing ability. :eek:

[Lebron23]

I pick LeBron over Bird. Same numbers of finals MVP, and Lebron had 1 more MVP than Him. And by the time Bron's career is over he will be miles ahead of bird in total points in the playoffs, regular season and in the finals.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Certainly extremely close but Bird had a better peak/prime as an overall player, and any unbiased person who knows his shit and has seen enough from both will tell you the same.

Larry still sitting higher on the all-time, when everything's considered, as well.



Man, Bird in this era with more spacing, an emphasis on jump-shooting, no touching on the perimeter... cot damn, he'd be Dirk on steroids with infinitely better play-making/passing ability. :eek:

http://giant.gfycat.com/FlimsyHastyHatchetfish.gif

[RRR3]

Not exactly 3 pillars of wisdom right there. The only one I take seriously is Reggie and I don't consider him particularly insightful.

Bird may or may not be better at their best but using quotes doesn't prove anything.

[funnystuff]

Three known unintelligent babble mouths say Bird is better than Bron.

How does this help your agenda against Bron?

[Indian guy]

Some hardcore basketball knowledge right there, folks :rolleyes:

There's simply no tangible case to be made for Bird>LeBron. LeBron's production is simply on another level, especially in the playoffs.

[Lebron23]

Some hardcore basketball knowledge right there, folks :rolleyes:

There's simply no tangible case to be made for Bird>LeBron. LeBron's production is simply on another level, especially in the playoffs.


Welcome back Indian Guy.

[RRR3]

Some hardcore basketball knowledge right there, folks :rolleyes:

There's simply no tangible case to be made for Bird>LeBron. LeBron's production is simply on another level, especially in the playoffs.
ShaqisGOAT essay in 3....2....1....

[jlip]

OK...:confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

ShaqisGOAT essay in 3....2....1....

This dude really loves me or something :oldlol:

[RRR3]

This dude really loves me or something :oldlol:
Nah, just thought his post would bother you

[Lebron23]

Even if you replace LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 NBA Finals. They won't beat the Warriors. People forget that Bird had a better supporting casts than LeBron in their entire NBA Career.

[KembaWalker]

Let's be honest, if it was 3 NBA media figures saying they'd take LeBron over Bird this thread would be one big circle jerk of LeBron stans

Can't have it both ways boys

[LoneyROY7]

Even if you replace LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 NBA Finals. They won't beat the Warriors. People forget that Bird had a better supporting casts than LeBron in their entire NBA Career.

I disagree.

I think the Cavs would have had a much better chance if they replaced LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 Finals.

[RRR3]

Let's be honest, if it was 3 NBA media figures saying they'd take LeBron over Bird this thread would be one big circle jerk of LeBron stans

Can't have it both ways boys
True, but if skip Bayless said Bron>Bird it'd be newsworthy

[RRR3]

I disagree.

I think the Cavs would have had a much better chance if they replaced LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 Finals.
This. LeBron wouldn't have shot 40% like LeBron did.

[SouBeachTalents]

I disagree.

I think the Cavs would have had a much better chance if they replaced LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 Finals.

I don't think if you replace LeBron with LeBron they win, but if you put LeBron on the Cavs in the 2015 Finals I think they win

[KembaWalker]

True, but if skip Bayless said Bron>Bird it'd be newsworthy

That's why I didn't name those 3 specifically :roll:

Skip turning would be hilarious

Think 3 other NBA media personalities

[DMV2]

Top 10 is pretty weird anyway.

People who look beyond rings usually have Bird over Magic. But Magic is generally placed in anywhere from 3-5, usually higher than Bird, who's right on his tail.

But then Bird and LeBron are so close that you'd think LeBron should be around #5-8 but then he'd be leaping over Duncan, Shaq and Kobe which he clearly hasn't yet. This is fine if Bird is generally placed below Duncan and Shaq but he's not by the consensus rankings. LeBron and Kobe kinda equal at the moment by most people.

People still hold Wilt and Russell in so high regards even though they played against like 10 teams.

It's almost like the gap between #3 to #9 is so marginal.

In short, Top 10 always seem so inconsistent to me. MJ and KAJ at #1 and #2 is the only consistent one.

[RRR3]

Oh I just meant skip. It wouldn't surprise me either way for Reggie. Idk about sas he flip flops on LeBron.

[DonDadda59]

I disagree.

I think the Cavs would have had a much better chance if they replaced LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 Finals.

Give LeBron 33 FGA in a series like LeBron got in the 2015 Finals, LeBron shoots much better than .477% TS.

[Lebron23]

I disagree.

I think the Cavs would have had a much better chance if they replaced LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 Finals.


I don't think so. Might be a better FG's percentages cause Lebron struggled with his outside shots.

At their peak Bird didn't get the productions of prime LeBron. LeBron is getting underrated in this forum. Bird played with Parish and Mcmahle, but he played in the 1980's where some of the stats where kinda inflated.

[RRR3]

Give LeBron 33 FGA in a series like LeBron got in the 2015 Finals, LeBron shoots much better than .477% TS.
Fact. As much as LeBron stans may hate it, it's simply a fact that LeBron is a better player than LeBron.

[LoneyROY7]

This. LeBron wouldn't have shot 40% like LeBron did.

Of course. LeBron is far more efficient than LeBron could dream of being.

[ShawkFactory]

Top 10 is pretty weird anyway.

People who look beyond rings usually have Bird over Magic.

Magic is generally placed in anywhere from 3-5 with Bird right on his tail.

But then Bird and LeBron are so close that you'd think LeBron should be around #5-8 but then he'd be leaping over Duncan, Shaq and Kobe which he clearly hasn't yet. This is fine if Bird is generally placed below Duncan and Shaq but he's not by the consensus rankings. LeBron and Kobe kinda equal at the moment by most people.

People still hold Wilt and Russell in so high regards even though they played against like 10 teams.

It's almost like the gap between #3 to #9 is so marginal.

In short, Top 10 always seem so inconsistent to me. MJ and KAJ at #1 and #2 is the only consistent one.
It really is. After MJ and KAJ there's been every different type of order from 3-11. Generally the first and second halves of the 3-11 are pretty spilt (with Duncan and Bird being on the cusp of both)...but overall it's marginal. Just depends on if you value analyzation of what happens on the court, accolades, or some combination of both.

[KembaWalker]

Oh I just meant skip. It wouldn't surprise me either way for Reggie. Idk about sas he flip flops on LeBron.

Granted those 3 aren't people you think to when you want a solid NBA opinion, but they do get paid to spew sh*t :roll:

Also F*CK REGGIE MILLER, probs the worst commentator

[DMV2]

Oh I just meant skip. It wouldn't surprise me either way for Reggie. Idk about sas he flip flops on LeBron.
SAS loves aggressive LeBron. Hates passive LeBron. Buried his 2011 Finals performance numerous times on First Take.

[LoneyROY7]

I don't think so. Might be a better FG's percentages cause Lebron struggled with his outside shots.

Well, LeBron was always a great outside shooter, whereas LeBron has been inconsistent at best.

[RRR3]

It really pisses me off when people say LeBron is better than LeBron. Madness.

[KembaWalker]

Personally I have LeBron higher than LeBron all time

[RRR3]

Personally I have LeBron higher than LeBron all time
All intelligent people do. :applause:

[LoneyROY7]

Personally I have LeBron higher than LeBron all time

:yaohappy:

It's not even close. LeBron doesn't deserve to be in the same breath as LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Personally I have LeBron higher than LeBron all time


All intelligent people do. :applause:


:yaohappy:

It's not even close. LeBron doesn't deserve to be in the same breath as LeBron.

:facepalm at these morons ranking LeBron above LeBron

[ShawkFactory]

SAS loves aggressive LeBron. Hates passive LeBron. Buried his 2011 Finals performance numerous times on First Take.
I don't think anyone really dislikes aggressive Lebron. It's a beauty to watch

[RRR3]

:facepalm at these morons ranking LeBron above LeBron
LeBron>>>>>>LeBron. Stay mad.

[Poochymama]

I would take Lebron over Larry.

[Indian guy]

Some funny stats....

Regular Season PER

Bird's career high - 27.8
LeBron's career average - 27.7
LeBron's career high - 31.7
Seasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 8
Seasons led the league in PER - LeBron 6 Bird 2

Regular Season WS/48

Bird's career high - .244
LeBron's career average - .240
LeBron's career high - .318
Seasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 6
Seasons led the league in WS/48 LeBron 5 Bird 2

Playoffs PER

Bird's career high - 26.3
LeBron's career average - 27.4(Bird 21.4)
LeBron's career high - 37.4
Postseasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 5
Led the league in playoffs PER LeBron 3 Bird 0

Playoffs WS/48

Bird's career high - .263
LeBron's career average - .234
LeBron's career high - .399
Postseasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 3
Led the league in playoffs WS/48 LeBron 3 Bird 1

[KembaWalker]

Some funny stats....

Regular Season PER

Bird's career high - 27.8
LeBron's career average - 27.7
LeBron's career high - 31.7
Seasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 8
Seasons led the league in PER - LeBron 6 Bird 2

Regular Season WS/48

Bird's career high - .244
LeBron's career average - .240
LeBron's career high - .318
Seasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 6
Seasons led the league in WS/48 LeBron 5 Bird 2

Playoffs PER

Bird's career high - 26.3
LeBron's career average - 27.4(Bird 21.4)
LeBron's career high - 37.4
Postseasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 5
Led the league in playoffs PER LeBron 3 Bird 0

Playoffs WS/48

Bird's career high - .263
LeBron's career average - .234
LeBron's career high - .399
Postseasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 3
Led the league in playoffs WS/48 LeBron 3 Bird 1

I don't see the humor

[SHAQisGOAT]

I pick LeBron over Bird. Same numbers of finals MVP, and Lebron had 1 more MVP than Him. And by the time Bron's career is over he will be miles ahead of bird in total points in the playoffs, regular season and in the finals.

Think you caught us all by surprise there :rolleyes:

Great arguments though :lol



Even if you replace Bird with LeBron in the 2015 NBA Finals. They won't beat the Warriors. People forget that Bird had a better supporting casts than LeBron in their entire NBA Career.

Cool :rolleyes: I don't think most would deny that, even if saying Bird could've/would've done a "better job".

Oh, and replace (prime) LeBron in the 2011 Finals with (prime) Bird... Heat definitely win.

Larry also had a better Finals series as a sophomore, while winning (and deserved FMVP), than James in 2007.

...

Nah, you know what people really forget about?...

-Larry was drafted into a franchise falling apart with the 2nd worst record in the league, many internal problems and attendances at an all-time low...
He INSTANTLY changed all of that; leading them to best record and the ECF in his 1st year with the same core roster, title by his sophomore year with Cowens gone and the only main addition being Parish who was already 27 and not viewed as much at all, so on...
Larry Legend was the MAIN cornerstone of a dynasty.

-Bird EASILY played against better competition than LeBron, individually (position and superstars) and collectively.
Continue to compare accolades at face-value though :rolleyes: :facepalm

-LeBron couldn't win it all so he joined two already ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player, and then bolted again when the ship was sinking...
Larry built from the ground up, stayed through thick and thin, developed along with the flow, proved his unreal value, proved himself as a bigger winner than LeBron ever did/could; C's were shitty before him, MUCH BETTER when he came along, considerably worse when he was out, considerably better even with him as a shell, shitty again for a long time after he retired...

-Bird's 1984 post-season run is a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did as far as that or could muster, even...
Most Celtics playing WELL BELOW their standards while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (:bowdown: nobody ever did that) all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition, clutch af.

-LB "made" lots of names...
Parish definitely wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now had he stayed in GS.
Think McHale could've gotten to the HoF "by his own" but don't forget he was DRAFTED by Boston, only really coming into his own by 1985, peaked in 1987 while getting severely injured in that same year, never the same again.
DJ was out of shape and viewed as a locker-room cancer before the C's picked him up with Bird's consentiment, playing for Boston cemented Dennis career with him making the HoF.
Maxwell "got" better when Larry came around.

-Everything's clicking in 1986 for Boston, everything in line, terrific talent coming together... Bird doesn't just lead a tremendous team, he leads what most call the GOAT team; most of that due to peak Larry, playing at a level that EXTREMELY FEW ever even get close to, killing the competition.
What James did when he joined the Heat with Wade and Bosh, or now with Love and Kyrie... Can't begin to **** with the way Larry was leading that '86 squad, or their level of play with Bird at the helm.

-Bird was the ultimate competitor, played better under pressure, wanted to tear his opponents' hearts out, talked shit with the best of them while backing it up, never backing down from a challenge...
LeBron? Well, not so much :oldlol:
Shit, if Marion went out calling LB a bitch, for example... You can bet that Larry Joe destroys him and the Mavs afterwards, while talking the most trash.

...

Now learn some and stop spilling out nonsense.

[Lebron23]

Think you caught us all by surprise there :rolleyes:

Great arguments though :lol




Cool :rolleyes: I don't think most would deny that, even if saying Bird could've/would've done a "better job".

Oh, and replace (prime) LeBron in the 2011 Finals with (prime) Bird... Heat definitely win.

Larry also had a better Finals series as a sophomore, while winning (and deserved FMVP), than James in 2007.

...

Nah, you know what people really forget about?...

-Larry was drafted into a franchise falling apart with the 2nd worst record in the league, many internal problems and attendances at an all-time low...
He INSTANTLY changed all of that; leading them to best record and the ECF in his 1st year with the same core roster, title by his sophomore year with Cowens gone and the only main addition being Parish who was already 27 and not viewed as much at all, so on...
Larry Legend was the MAIN cornerstone of a dynasty.

-Bird EASILY played against better competition than LeBron, individually (position and superstars) and collectively.
Continue to compare accolades at face-value though :rolleyes: :facepalm

-LeBron couldn't win it all so he joined two already ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player, and then bolted again when the ship was sinking...
Larry built from the ground up, stayed through thick and thin, developed along with the flow, proved his unreal value, proved himself as a bigger winner than LeBron ever did/could; C's were shitty before him, MUCH BETTER when he came along, considerably worse when he was out, considerably better even with him as a shell, shitty again for a long time after he retired...

-Bird's 1984 post-season run is a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did as far as that or could muster, even...
Most Celtics playing WELL BELOW their standards while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (:bowdown: nobody ever did that) all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition, clutch af.

-LB "made" lots of names...
Parish definitely wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now had he stayed in GS.
Think McHale could've gotten to the HoF "by his own" but don't forget he was DRAFTED by Boston, only really coming into his own by 1985, peaked in 1987 while getting severely injured in that same year, never the same again.
DJ was out of shape and viewed as a locker-room cancer before the C's picked him up with Bird's consentiment, playing for Boston cemented Dennis career with him making the HoF.
Maxwell "got" better when Larry came around.

-Everything's clicking in 1986 for Boston, everything in line, terrific talent coming together... Bird doesn't just lead a tremendous team, he leads what most call the GOAT team; most of that due to peak Larry, playing at a level that EXTREMELY FEW ever even get close to, killing the competition.

-Bird was the ultimate competitor, played better under pressure, wanted to tear his opponents' hearts out, talked shit with the best of them while backing it up, never backing down from a challenge...
LeBron? Well, not so much :oldlol:
Shit, if Marion went out calling LB a bitch, for example... You can bet that Larry Joe destroys him and the Mavs afterwards, while talking the most trash.

...

Now learn some and stop spilling out nonsense.



And Lebron still have better finals stats than Bird. Maybe RR3 and Indian Guy can posts their finals numbers.

[SouBeachTalents]

-Bird's 1984 post-season run is a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did as far as that or could muster, even...
Most Celtics playing WELL BELOW their standards while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (:bowdown: nobody ever did that) all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition, clutch af.

-LB "made" lots of names...
Parish definitely wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now had he stayed in GS.
Think McHale could've gotten to the HoF "by his own" but don't forget he was DRAFTED by Boston, only really coming into his own by 1985, peaked in 1987 while getting severely injured in that same year, never the same again.
DJ was out of shape and viewed as a locker-room cancer before the C's picked him up with Bird's consentiment, playing for Boston cemented Dennis career with him making the HoF.
Maxwell "got" better when Larry came around.
[/B]

For these two points

1. LeBron's 2013 playoffs are definitely on par with Bird's 1984 in terms of carrying, if not more so

2. I seriously doubt Bosh makes the HOF without LeBron, pretty nice numbers, but his resume is rather unimpressive the 8 seasons he's played without LeBron

[HighFlyer23]

Some hardcore basketball knowledge right there, folks :rolleyes:

There's simply no tangible case to be made for Bird>LeBron. LeBron's production is simply on another level, especially in the playoffs.
Filthy Dalit

[SHAQisGOAT]

And Lebron still have better finals stats than Bird. Maybe RR3 and Indian Guy can posts their finals numbers.

Damn man, you sure know how to counter with some great arguments :rolleyes: LeBron's stans are really knowledgeable :rolleyes:
Why don't you just learn something and stfu?


I might just as well post them...

Larry Bird:
31 games (16-15); 5 Finals; 3 Championships; 2x FMVP
42.8 MPG; 46% FG; 42% 3p; 87% FT; 23.1 PPG; 11.7 RPG; 6.0 APG; 2.0 SPG; 0.8 BPG

LeBron James:
33 games (13-20); 6 Finals; 2 Championships; 2x FMVP
43.0 MPG; 45% FG; 33% 3p; 74% FT; 26.4 PPG; 9.6 RPG; 6.9 APG; 1.7 SPG; 0.5 BPG

That disparity :rolleyes:
^Just being ironic there, apart from that 16-15 to 13-20 game record :roll:

Mention the names now, all you can resort to at this point... Forget or neglect all those things I've said though, like what situation Bird walked into, what he did, who LeBron joined, competition they faced... Come back with the same bs now :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Some funny stats....

Regular Season PER

Bird's career high - 27.8
LeBron's career average - 27.7
LeBron's career high - 31.7
Seasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 8
Seasons led the league in PER - LeBron 6 Bird 2

Regular Season WS/48

Bird's career high - .244
LeBron's career average - .240
LeBron's career high - .318
Seasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 6
Seasons led the league in WS/48 LeBron 5 Bird 2

Playoffs PER

Bird's career high - 26.3
LeBron's career average - 27.4(Bird 21.4)
LeBron's career high - 37.4
Postseasons with a higher PER than Bird's career high - 5
Led the league in playoffs PER LeBron 3 Bird 0

Playoffs WS/48

Bird's career high - .263
LeBron's career average - .234
LeBron's career high - .399
Postseasons with a higher WS/48 than Bird's career high - 3
Led the league in playoffs WS/48 LeBron 3 Bird 1

Dumb post.

PER is an efficiency measure, and its common knowledge LeBron purposefully pads his shooting percentages (he's said so himself).

Winshares are absolutely garbage and don't adjust for anything. Its been said countless times here that "winshares" include team numbers to get its measure.

[Lebron23]

Filthy Dalit


Jeff doesn't tolerate racism. You might end up like warriorsfan.

[HighFlyer23]

Betas like Lebron23 and Indian guy would pick a beta like Lebron over an alpha like Bird

[Lebron23]

Damn man, you sure know how to counter with some great arguments :rolleyes: LeBron's stans are really knowledgeable :rolleyes:
Why don't you just learn something and stfu?


I might just as well post them...

Larry Bird:
31 games (16-15); 5 Finals; 3 Championships; 2x FMVP
42.8 MPG; 46% FG; 42% 3p; 87% FT; 23.1 PPG; 11.7 RPG; 6.0 APG; 2.0 SPG; 0.8 BPG

LeBron James:
33 games (13-20); 6 Finals; 2 Championships; 2x FMVP
43.0 MPG; 45% FG; 33% 3p; 74% FT; 26.4 PPG; 9.6 RPG; 6.9 APG; 1.7 SPG; 0.5 BPG

That disparity :rolleyes:
^Just being ironic there, apart from that 16-15 to 13-20 game record :roll:

Mention the names now, all you can resort to at this point... Forget or neglect all those things I've said though, like what situation Bird walked into, what he did, who LeBron joined, competition they faced... Come back with the same bs now :oldlol:


And Lebron's career is not yet over while Bird was done at 36. And it's not LeBron fault that the east is weak.

[Lebron23]

Betas like Lebron23 and Indian guy would pick a beta like Lebron over an alpha like Bird

You are a B1tch. Me and Indian Guy are > you.

[DMV2]

good lord....essays!

[Lebron23]

For these two points

1. LeBron's 2013 playoffs are definitely on par with Bird's 1984 in terms of carrying, if not more so

2. I seriously doubt Bosh makes the HOF without LeBron, pretty nice numbers, but his resume is rather unimpressive the 8 seasons he's played without LeBron


Indeed.

:cheers:

[ShawkFactory]

Think you caught us all by surprise there :rolleyes:

Great arguments though :lol




Cool :rolleyes: I don't think most would deny that, even if saying Bird could've/would've done a "better job".

Oh, and replace (prime) LeBron in the 2011 Finals with (prime) Bird... Heat definitely win.

Larry also had a better Finals series as a sophomore, while winning (and deserved FMVP), than James in 2007.

...

Nah, you know what people really forget about?...

-Larry was drafted into a franchise falling apart with the 2nd worst record in the league, many internal problems and attendances at an all-time low...
He INSTANTLY changed all of that; leading them to best record and the ECF in his 1st year with the same core roster, title by his sophomore year with Cowens gone and the only main addition being Parish who was already 27 and not viewed as much at all, so on...
Larry Legend was the MAIN cornerstone of a dynasty.

-Bird EASILY played against better competition than LeBron, individually (position and superstars) and collectively.
Continue to compare accolades at face-value though :rolleyes: :facepalm

-LeBron couldn't win it all so he joined two already ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player, and then bolted again when the ship was sinking...
Larry built from the ground up, stayed through thick and thin, developed along with the flow, proved his unreal value, proved himself as a bigger winner than LeBron ever did/could; C's were shitty before him, MUCH BETTER when he came along, considerably worse when he was out, considerably better even with him as a shell, shitty again for a long time after he retired...

-Bird's 1984 post-season run is a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did as far as that or could muster, even...
Most Celtics playing WELL BELOW their standards while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (:bowdown: nobody ever did that) all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition, clutch af.

-LB "made" lots of names...
Parish definitely wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now had he stayed in GS.
Think McHale could've gotten to the HoF "by his own" but don't forget he was DRAFTED by Boston, only really coming into his own by 1985, peaked in 1987 while getting severely injured in that same year, never the same again.
DJ was out of shape and viewed as a locker-room cancer before the C's picked him up with Bird's consentiment, playing for Boston cemented Dennis career with him making the HoF.
Maxwell "got" better when Larry came around.

-Everything's clicking in 1986 for Boston, everything in line, terrific talent coming together... Bird doesn't just lead a tremendous team, he leads what most call the GOAT team; most of that due to peak Larry, playing at a level that EXTREMELY FEW ever even get close to, killing the competition.
What James did when he joined the Heat with Wade and Bosh, or now with Love and Kyrie... Can't begin to **** with the way Larry was leading that '86 squad, or their level of play with Bird at the helm.

-Bird was the ultimate competitor, played better under pressure, wanted to tear his opponents' hearts out, talked shit with the best of them while backing it up, never backing down from a challenge...
LeBron? Well, not so much :oldlol:
Shit, if Marion went out calling LB a bitch, for example... You can bet that Larry Joe destroys him and the Mavs afterwards, while talking the most trash.

...

Now learn some and stop spilling out nonsense.

Ether.

Teach this asshole some shit.

*Though Bron in 12 and 13 was definitely on some other shit.

I remember 2012 in that series against Boston. I was working with this guy from LA who was a HUGE Lakers/Kobe guy...and he never hesitated to trash Lebron. Relentless arguments about how Lebron didn't have what it takes and was a fraud and etc, etc. And you know what...at the time he was right. But after that game 6, and also the followup in game 7...

It wasn't busy at all so we were watching game 7 at the restaurant bar and Lebron did something and this guy was like, "this nikka serious right now...damn". It was beautiful :lol

He never had that legendary mindset that Larry possessed on a consistent basis it doesn't seem but at the times that he DID grab it...game over.

Huge difference between them obviously.

[Prime_Shaq]

I would too tbh

[Prime_Shaq]

Even if you replace LeBron with LeBron in the 2015 NBA Finals. They won't beat the Warriors. People forget that Bird had a better supporting casts than LeBron in their entire NBA Career.
I agree

[SHAQisGOAT]

For these two points

1. LeBron's 2013 playoffs are definitely on par with Bird's 1984 in terms of carrying, if not more so

2. I seriously doubt Bosh makes the HOF without LeBron, pretty nice numbers, but his resume is rather unimpressive the 8 seasons he's played without LeBron

1. Certainly not...

Watch the games, see the disparity in stats... Most of Larry's teammates were playing well below their usual standars, many playing like shit relatively.

Throughout the Playoffs, Bird leads the team in:
-points
-rebounds
-assists
-steals
-FG%
-FT%
:bowdown:

^Know how unreal that is? Do you understand the level he (and his teammates) had to be at? Nobody ever even came close to that, let alone with that many amount of games, while winning it all.

Bird shot 52.4% from the field, rest of the team at 45.8% collectively.
Larry with WS of 4.7, next best at 2.1.
Bird with a PER of 26.3, next best at 16.3.
Larry scoring 27.5 on 52.4% FG, next best with 16.6 on 40.4%.

Oh, and Bird's Celtics faced King's Knicks, Bucks with Moncrief, Marques J, Lanier, Pressey, Bridgeman...
And then in the Finals just a "little" team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes... LeBron can't **** with that level of competition.

Plus, I won't even go much into it but nobody can neglect the (arguably) GOAT Finals clutch shot by Bron's teammate, Ray-Ray, saving them from defeat.


2. Won't even go against that but Bosh was making all-nba teams, all-star games, being top10 in MVP voting, leading team into the post-season as the main-man, and so on, before he joined the Heat with LeBron...
Parish was already 27 before he joined the Celtics, never did ANY of the stuff I've mentioned above for Bosh. And his play got better alongside Larry, even most of his numbers.

[KembaWalker]

Pack your lunches, SHAQisGOAT taking everyone to school right now :bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Certainly not...

Watch the games, see the disparity in stats... Most of Larry's teammates were playing well below their usual standars, many playing like shit relatively.

Throughout the Playoffs, Bird leads the team in:
-points
-rebounds
-assists
-steals
-FG%
-FT%
:bowdown:

^Know how unreal that is? Do you understand the level he (and his teammates) had to be at? Nobody ever even came close to that, let alone with that many amount of games, while winning it all.

Bird shot 52.4% from the field, rest of the team at 45.8% collectively.
Larry with WS of 4.7, next best at 2.1.
Bird with a PER of 26.3, next best at 16.3.
Larry scoring 27.5 on 52.4% FG, next best with 16.6 on 40.4%.

Oh, and Bird's Celtics faced King's Knicks, Bucks with Moncrief, Marques J, Lanier, Pressey, Bridgeman...
And then in the Finals just a "little" team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes... LeBron can't **** with that level of competition.

Plus, I won't even go much into it but nobody can neglect the (arguably) GOAT Finals clutch shot by Bron's teammate, Ray-Ray, saving them from defeat.


2. Won't even go against that but Bosh was making all-nba teams, all-star games, being top10 in MVP voting, leading team into the post-season as the main-man, and so on, before he joined the Heat with LeBron...
Parish was already 27 before he joined the Celtics, never did ANY of the stuff I've mentioned above for Bosh. And his play got better alongside Larry, even most of his numbers.


Look at the disparity in stats for the 2013 Heat in the playoffs. Bosh and especially Wade were playing WELL below their standards. LeBron led the Heat in points, assists, rebounds and steals as well (did the same thing in 2012 too). In terms of WS, LeBron had 5.2, second best was 2.2. Competition is no argument, everyone know's LeBron's faced joke competition the last 4 seasons in the East

And while what you're saying is technically true, Bosh made All-NBA and finished top 10 in MVP voting once, both in the same season in '07, and has never done it again. Certainly more established than Parish in GS, no question, but people build up Bosh to be much bigger than he was in Toronto. I don't think people fathom he's missed the playoffs in the conference everyone dubs "the worst of all time" 6/8 seasons he's played without LeBron

[Lebron23]

That 3rd finals MVP is what's keeping this retard from comparing LeBron to Bird. Lebron have a better peak than Bird. And Bird never averaged over 30 ppg in the playoffs. And LeBron better overall player than Larry. He's not only a triple double machine, he's also a superior defender than Larry.

If Lebron wins his 3rd Finals MVP next year. He won't ever be put in the same level as Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, and Kobe aka the 2 finals MVP Club. He'll automatically surpass all of them.

[DMV2]

Damn!

LeBron23 going for the kill.

[KembaWalker]

That 3rd finals MVP is what's keeping this retard from comparing LeBron to Bird. Lebron have a better peak than Bird. And Bird never averaged over 30 ppg in the playoffs. And LeBron better overall player. He's not only a triple double machine he's also a superior defender than larry.

If Lebron wins his 3rd Finals MVP next year. He won't ever be put in the same level as Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, and Kobe aka the 2 finals MVP Club.

:roll: my dude SHAQisGOAT backing things up with stats and logic, where as you're calling out for backup and calling people retards?

This 'retard' is in your head son

Also according to your argument, number of defensive teams equals to better defender? kk so Kobe>>>LeBron as a defender?

EDIT: Dude edited his post like 4 times, this dude spooked

[Lebron23]

:roll: my dude SHAQisGOAT backing things up with stats and logic, where as you're calling out for backup and calling people retards?

This 'retard' is in your head son

Also according to your argument, number of defensive teams equals to better defender? kk so Kobe>>>LeBron as a defender?

EDIT: Dude edited his post like 4 times, this dude spooked


Kobe only get the award because he had some solid reputations back in the day. He didn't deserve some of that award if you were watching some games.

Afro Kobe was a great defender. Bald Kobe was voted in the all defensive team because of his past reputations.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

who the new biddie:applause: :applause: :applause: upgraded that cari champion ho:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Da_Realist]

Bird is better at basketball. Lebron is better at basketball-reference. Simple as that.

Bird could dominate and still allowed his teammates to shine because he didn't dominate the ball. He'd get the ball and keep it 2-3 seconds (sometimes less) and make a quick decision to keep the ball moving. This allowed his team to be unpredictable and harder to defend. It is harder to dominate on great teams than it is to carry "scrubs" and Bird was probably better than anyone at this (at least that I've seen).

Bird had a sure shot with no short-term memory and he was considered money in the clutch.

Lebron plays a different game. He's a product of today's over-valuation of stats. First thing Lebron fans do is check his stats. Damn near every post is based on his stats. They base their analysis on what comes out of the box score, not on the game we were just watching. A lot of Lebron's weaknesses don't get talked about because he posts great numbers and Lebron doesn't work on those weaknesses because he posts great numbers.

Lebron is probably top 10 but LebronCareerBoxScore is definitely top 5, maybe top 3. He's the only player I can think of whose box score is better than he is.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Bron is gonna pass Bird one day. If Bron stays healthy, he has PLENTY of time to pass LB. Peak wise, Bird will ALWAYS have an argument over Bron. Only perimeter player FOR SURE I would take over Bird peak wise is Jordan. However, u can still argue Bron over Bird peak wise because he's the most versatile player of all time. And he's a better defender than Bird ever was as well.

But Bird's clutch gene and shooting-scoring ability was OFF THE HOOK! Passing wise, he as good of a passer from a STATIONARY position of all time. And Bird could be the ONLY guy who wasn't really pass first OR score first. It seemed he just made the proper play ALL THE DAMN TIME! Magic and Bron are more pass first. MJ and Kobe are more score first. It seemed Bird was RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE!!

[Lebron23]

Bird is better at basketball. Lebron is better at basketball-reference. Simple as that.

Bird could dominate and still allowed his teammates to shine because he didn't dominate the ball. He'd get the ball and keep it 2-3 seconds (sometimes less) and make a quick decision to keep the ball moving. This allowed his team to be unpredictable and harder to defend. It is harder to dominate on great teams than it is to carry "scrubs" and Bird was probably better than anyone at this (at least that I've seen).

Bird had a sure shot with no short-term memory and he was considered money in the clutch.

Lebron plays a different game. He's a product of today's over-valuation of stats. First thing Lebron fans do is check his stats. Damn near every post is based on his stats. They base their analysis on what comes out of the box score, not on the game we were just watching. A lot of Lebron's weaknesses don't get talked about because he posts great numbers and Lebron doesn't work on those weaknesses because he posts great numbers.

Lebron is probably top 10 but LebronCareerBoxScore is definitely top 5, maybe top 3. He's the only player I can think of whose box score is better than he is.

Stop talking out of your @$$. You Jordan stans are also talking about MJ stats in every posts in this forum. Lebron acquired his stats in a slow tempo offense where every NBA team is not averaging 116 points a game unlike in the 1980's.

[Lebron23]

GOAT wise, Bron is gonna pass Bird one day. If Bron stays healthy, he has PLENTY of time to pass LB. Peak wise, Bird will ALWAYS have an argument over Bron. Only perimeter player FOR SURE I would take over Bird peak wise is Jordan. However, u can still argue Bron over Bird peak wise because he's the most versatile player of all time. And he's a better defender than Bird ever was as well.

But Bird's clutch gene and shooting-scoring ability was OFF THE HOOK! Passing wise, he as good of a passer from a STATIONARY position of all time. And Bird could be the ONLY guy who wasn't really pass first OR score first. It seemed he just made the proper play ALL THE DAMN TIME! Magic and Bron are more pass first. MJ and Kobe are more score first. It seemed Bird was RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE!!


/End Thread

[DMV2]

Damn! Da Realist keeping it real and shit.

Bird stans back on top.

[ShawkFactory]

GOAT wise, Bron is gonna pass Bird one day. If Bron stays healthy, he has PLENTY of time to pass LB. Peak wise, Bird will ALWAYS have an argument over Bron. Only perimeter player FOR SURE I would take over Bird peak wise is Jordan. However, u can still argue Bron over Bird peak wise because he's the most versatile player of all time. And he's a better defender than Bird ever was as well.

But Bird's clutch gene and shooting-scoring ability was OFF THE HOOK! Passing wise, he as good of a passer from a STATIONARY position of all time. And Bird could be the ONLY guy who wasn't really pass first OR score first. It seemed he just made the proper play ALL THE DAMN TIME! Magic and Bron are more pass first. MJ and Kobe are more score first. It seemed Bird was RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE!!
:applause:

You're killin it tonight

[305Baller]

I'm in agreement with all 3 of these guys. Which means I'm probably wrong, then.

[DMV2]

LeBron23 murdered Jordan stans, Kobe stans, Wilt stans, Bird and Hakeem stans all on the last page.

[BasedTom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw2YN30NGGI
damn he looks like a completelu bald guy with a black headband at this point :lol

[Da_Realist]

This guy makes a good point as to why Lebron struggles to get good shots and depends a lot on what he calls "cheap points". This was posted in 2011 when Lebron was still with the Heat. It sort of foreshadows how Lebron couldn't beat his man one-on-one in the 2015 Finals even when he was on an island. By contrast, Bird would have nailed you to the wall if you played him like that because he was more unpredictable, had a more dependable offensive game and he could beat you in so many ways.

=======

Originally Posted by nyk buc

so who's better than him?

it's not just ESPN. ask coaches/GMs... lebron's the best player in the L. hell, you make a poll on NT and lebron will win that poll, despite all the hate.

you can't deny a guy who puts up 27, 8, 7 on 51%fg.

4/12/11 at 10:04pm
Thread Starter

4Shoposite
offline

730 Posts. Joined 7/2003
Reputation: 74

It's not about being better or the stats. If you want to say that because Lebron is so good at everything else and that's why he's the best...then fine. I can't argue with what you feel is important to you. To me, assist and rebounds are important, but I don't hold too much weight into those just by looking at the statistics. Andre Miller is the king of cheap assist. Adonyl Foyle used to be the King of cheap Rebounds. Those stats can be attributed to 'the right play' or the 'stat that's just there' sometimes. Players I'd rather build my team around: Rose, Wade, Kobe (especially prime Kobe), a younger Paul Pierce (Dude's offensive game was so underrated. I think he low key striked fear in more defenders hearts than everybody except Kobe. He just couldn't pass the ball too well). Everybody else perimeter wise is on Lebron's level. Durant is a great young player, but sometimes I watch him and can't make up my mind yet. If he's going for the Reggie Miller type of scoring...then I think he's dependable. Sometimes your outside shot can just be that good...but Durant doesn't have that good of a slashing ability for my taste. I'm still trying to make up my mind about Durant. I like Melo...I really do. The one thing that holds him back to me is that he has the mentality of a scorer with the domination ability of someone who likes to go through the motions. Sometimes I feel like he just doesn't like to always put his mark on the game.

Is it arrogant for me to say that I believe I know more about what I'm talking about than these coaches/GMs? Sure...but If that's the consensus feeling, I have to say that I honestly do.

Hear me out. I want everyone to watch the next Heat game and pay close attention to the way Lebron gets his baskets. 95% of the time, if he's on the outside looking to score, he calls for a pick.

Now let me make this clear. I am not saying that using a pick is a bad thing. Throughout the game, it actually allows a player to conserve energy and also keeps the team balanced by utilizing different players on the offense.

But what I pay attention to the most is if a player uses a pick because it's actually the easier and more simple thing to do when the game is still in a 'less than critical' mode OR if he uses it because he can't consistently beat his man off the dribble. Like I stated earlier, the problem with using a pick if you are a swingman who is looking to score down the stretch is that when the game gets critical - it's easy to doubleteam and force the star player to pass the ball. For the same reason why big men who work out of the post aren't normally dependable closers...it's the same reason why a pick is a stupid thing for a perimeter player who's first option is looking to score to do! It gives the defense the ammo necessary to force you to make someone else take the shot. People know what's coming when a pick is called. It almost develops before it even happens, so it doesn't really shock a defense. It gives the defense a chance to defend it by breaking down to one or two options. If a player blows by his man straight up...the defense is much more behind.

John Stockton and the Utah Jazz were great at using the pick and roll down the stretch because he wasn't the primary scorer in those situations...Karl Malone was - and then a domino effect of what became available after he got the ball. The only time a pick is consistent down the stretch is if the defense messes up and the dribbler gets the chance for a spot up J (TMAC is the primary example of this. One of his few great buckets to seal a game came from something like this in a playoff game against the Mavs).

When I say cheap points...I'm not necessarily saying that they're easy...I just don't think they are what you can depend on down the stretch. Nasty habits that Lebron has picked up because of his lack of a first step is that pull up 3. Tracy McGrady used to do the same thing all the time. Night in and night out...you can't depend on that. That's a superstar shot with a 12th man effect. Backdoor alley oops...you can't depend on that. Fastbreak dunks...non dependable. Putbacks and shots while the defense isn't set up...these are what I definitely consider 'cheap points'. When I watch Lebron...that's how I normally see him score. If Lebron realizes he can't beat his man one on one...he calls for a pick. If the defense recovers and his man stays in front of him, he either shoots a outside jumper or he decides to back his man down and bully him HOPING for the foul. The reason I say hoping, because a great percentage of those contested shots are some of the ugliest shots I have seen in NBA history. That's just not dependable folks. The only shot in Lebron's repitore that I think is dependable when a team truly locks in on him is his triple-threat stance jumper/dribble - pull up jumper. If Lebron gets confident in that shot, then that is what can hide this weakness. I watch the games too much to just make this up.

Yes, I do put a lot of weight on how great a player's first step is. Call my team "Great First Step" :oldlol: I believe you can have hardly any skills at all...Your outside jumper could be horrible. But if you can beat your man off the dribble consistently, you can still make a impact on the game. Ask any perimeter hooper what attribute they would give their right arm for and it's a great first step. I always use Grant Hill as an example. A young Grant Hill had no outside game whatsoever. He was a superstar solely because of his first step and ability to explode just as good as Lebron in a one man transition. The only problem with Hill is that he didn't have a scorers mentality and didn't own what God had blessed him with. He could have been very similar to MJ if his mind was a little different. But it's also why I believe Grant is still effective to this day. His first step...though not as great as it once was, is still capable enough to keep him effective and in the league.

All I want people to do is just pay attention to what I'm saying. The next Heat game...just closely look at the things I've pointed out. If I actually convince one person to see what I'm saying, then maybe I think I had made a difference. :pimp: If you still disagree...a :hammerhead: is cool, but I really can't see how people don't see it. Bron fans...I aint trying to blow your boy's spot up, but It gets kinda irratating when people who you think are knowledgable say different or call him the best player in the world. He's just not.

http://niketalk.com/t/295042/why-dont-sportcasters-keep-it-real-about-lebron/240

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

SHAQisGOAT just killin nikkas:lol :lol that ugly lil shtballer Lebron23 cant even make arguments just random one sentence posts:lol prolly the scope of his english proficiency:lol :lol

[Indian guy]

This guy makes a good point as to why Lebron struggles to get good shots and depends a lot on what he calls "cheap points". This was posted in 2011 when Lebron was still with the Heat.

2011 :oldlol:. Yeah, let's take LeBron's absolute worst season athletically, a year he had ballooned up to 275+ pounds and couldn't beat his grandma off the dribble, and evaluate his entire offensive ability based on that :rolleyes:


It sort of foreshadows how Lebron couldn't beat his man one-on-one in the 2015 Finals even when he was on an island.

Ummm, what? Given the fact that LeBron absolutely struggled shooting the ball in the series, how in GOD's name did he end up averaging 36 ppg if he couldn't even beat his man 1-on-1?


By contrast, Bird would have nailed you to the wall if you played him like that because he was more unpredictable, had a more dependable offensive game and he could beat you in so many ways.

Yeah, more "dependable" offensive game yet somehow, actual facts(you know, what they actually did on the basketball court) don't seem to indicate this at all. LeBron has consistently scored more on higher efficiency - particularly in the playoffs. For someone with the reputation of coming up clutch, it's amazing how often Bird came up short in the playoffs. There's simply nothing that points towards Bird being the more "dependable" scorer. Nothing.

[Indian guy]

He'd get the ball and keep it 2-3 seconds (sometimes less) and make a quick decision to keep the ball moving.

Given his very limited athleticism, it's the ONLY way he could've played and be effective. LeBron dominates the ball because he CAN. WTF is Bird going to do by dribbling the ball a lot? Nothing.


It is harder to dominate on great teams than it is to carry "scrubs"

Dude, on top of winning 2 rings, LeBron had no trouble winning multiple MVPs, PER titles and dominating every advanced stat imaginable at historical levels from 2012-2014 on the "loaded" Miami Heat. He didn't just do it with "scrubs" on Cleveland, he did it while playing alongside 2 All Stars too. You seem to have such an archaic view of LeBron's game. It's like you never watched him play past 2008.

[Indian guy]

Some good stuff I found on REALGM that goes deeper into LeBron's edge as an offensive player over Bird. He doesn't simply crush him in raw averages or some other primary advanced stats(PER, WS/48), but his teams generally do better too.


Here are how LeBron and Bird compare in Postseason offenses. This is postseason O rating relative to the postseason average (I didn't have time to adjust for defense):

12 6
13 5.4
09 4.9
86 4.4
14 4.1
81 3.1
84 2.9
87 2.6
85 1.1
11 0.4
80 0.4
88 -0.3
10 -0.4
82 -0.9
83 -6.4

LeBron with 4 of the top 5 including the top 3.


LeBron has led some GOAT level offenses like 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014. Even this season has LeBron showing great offensive ability.

LeBron's on court O rating since 2009

Rk Season PTS
1 2012-13 116.5
2 2009-10 115.8
3 2014-15 115.7
4 2008-09 115.6
5 2013-14 113.7
6 2010-11 113.6

Since 2009, he has by far the best on court O rating and its not close.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

LeBron has the best career OBPM which correlates well to RAPM (which LeBron is also the best at):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

LeBron has the best offensive RAPM in the 2001-2014 14 year RAPM study at 7.2 which beats out CP3 and Nash's +6.6

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/14y.html

By all objective measures LeBron is an all-time offensive player. Just compare his teams O ratings to Bird's and you will find that LeBron comes ahead. LeBron has 7 years in the playoffs with a better OBPM than Bird's best.

btw, Bird was not scoring at LeBron level of usage or efficiency nor was he getting LeBron assists.

RS:
LeBron: 37 Points per 100, .581 TS%, 34.3 AST%
Bird: 30.3 pts per 100, .564 TS%, 24.7 AST%

PS:
LeBron: 36.3 PPG, .578 TS%, 31.9 AST%
Bird: 28 PPG, .551 TS%, 23.7 AST%

That looks like a massive difference to me.


http://tinyurl.com/lks3l2n


http://tinyurl.com/nurluul

Re: LeBron and Bird's offenses. From 80-88, Bird's teams averaged a +4.18 O rating relative to league while 09-15 LeBron's teams averaged +4.28

88 7.4
13 6.4
15 5.3
87 5.2
85 4.9
86 4.6
11 4.3
14 4.2
80 4.2
09 4.1
10 3..6
84 3.3
81 2.9
82 2.9
83 2.2
12 2

LeBron has 2 of the top 3 offenses and just 1 of the bottom 5. LeBron's team offenses have performed right around the level.

Re: LeBron not pairing up well with other elite players. I disagree about that completely. When LeBron joined the big 3, they clicked immediately and were great from day 1. People didn't want to admit it, but the big 3 had little redundancy in 2011.

Here is the O rating relative to League average from the LeBron/Wade pairing together:

2011 8.6
2012 8.2
2013 11.2
2014 4.7

The Big 3 posted a 116.9 O rating together in 2011. The LeBron/Wade pairing had an average rating of 114.3 O rating together peaking at 117.1 in 2013. To put that into perspective, Shaq/Kobe averaged 112.3 O rating from 01-04 peaking at 113.1, well below James/Wade peak.

[Svendiggity]

Yeah, more "dependable" offensive game yet somehow, actual facts(you know, what they actually did on the basketball court) don't seem to indicate this at all. LeBron has consistently scored more on higher efficiency - particularly in the playoffs. For someone with the reputation of coming up clutch, it's amazing how often Bird came up short in the playoffs. There's simply nothing that points towards Bird being the more "dependable" scorer. Nothing.

a jumpshot?

[pastis]

i think that most of the so called "nba analysts" have deep knlowedge about the game. I truly think that on rgm and on ish there are some members with def. more knowledge about facts, statistics, eras etc.

i personally dont give a shit about miller, bayless and smith. they dont know shit about anything. not about the game. not about the players.

[Derka]

I will place Lebron over Bird if he wins another ring, and that's really hard for me to admit.

[Da_Realist]

2011 :oldlol:. Yeah, let's take LeBron's absolute worst season athletically, a year he had ballooned up to 275+ pounds and couldn't beat his grandma off the dribble, and evaluate his entire offensive ability based on that :rolleyes:

Is it any different now? He scores in other ways but dude has a point -- Lebron has a hard time beating his man one-on-one. This past Finals was a perfect example of this because the Warriors dared him to do just that and he couldn't do it.


Ummm, what? Given the fact that LeBron absolutely struggled shooting the ball in the series, how in GOD's name did he end up averaging 36 ppg if he couldn't even beat his man 1-on-1?

You shoot enough, a few shots will go in especially when you're bigger than every defender.


Yeah, more "dependable" offensive game yet somehow, actual facts(you know, what they actually did on the basketball court) don't seem to indicate this at all. LeBron has consistently scored more on higher efficiency - particularly in the playoffs. For someone with the reputation of coming up clutch, it's amazing how often Bird came up short in the playoffs. There's simply nothing that points towards Bird being the more "dependable" scorer. Nothing.

Is Karl Malone the same caliber scorer as Michael Jordan? Is David Robinson a better scorer than Hakeem Olajuwon? Just because you average more or shoot more efficiently doesn't mean you are as good of a scorer. It's easy to score more efficiently if you wait for the perfect opportunity to shoot or get bailed out by foul calls (so fga don't count).

The cream rises to the top in the clutch. Did we not see Lebron fade in the fourth quarter 3 or 4 times during the Finals this past year? He says he was tired. I say it was because the defense eliminated the put-backs and easy transition baskets that padded his scoring. Bird was a better clutch performer because he had a more dependable offensive game and could knock down shots in his sleep, no matter what the defense did. Game tape says Bird was the more dependable scorer, BoxScore says Lebron is.


Given his very limited athleticism, it's the ONLY way he could've played and be effective. LeBron dominates the ball because he CAN. WTF is Bird going to do by dribbling the ball a lot? Nothing.

Conversely, Lebron dominates the ball because he can't dominate the game without it. What does Lebron do without the ball? Nothing. Most times, just hang out outside the 3pt line waiting on his teammates to do something or pass it back to him. No movement at all. He has to be reminded to post up. He's not used to playing without the ball.

As a result, Bird's teams had a higher ceiling than Lebron's. Bird's style allowed his teammates to still play their games and feel more involved in every play. Lebron played on some good teams, but Bird has played on all time great teams.



Dude, on top of winning 2 rings, LeBron had no trouble winning multiple MVPs, PER titles and dominating every advanced stat imaginable at historical levels from 2012-2014 on the "loaded" Miami Heat. He didn't just do it with "scrubs" on Cleveland, he did it while playing alongside 2 All Stars too.

I think even you would admit it was a struggle for them to get it together because Lebron couldn't be Lebron in a free flowing offense or when someone else needs the ball like he does. So Wade made a conscious effort to step down a little bit so Lebron could be Lebron. Even when they got it together, they didn't have the chemistry that those Celtics did.

San Antonio almost beat them in 2012 because they dared Lebron to shoot jumpshots (which professional wing players should be able to do in their sleep). That was basically their strategy against the best player in the game. The Warriors this year put Lebron on an island and dared him to beat their guy with everyone else behind the 3pt line. 40% for the series.



You seem to have such an archaic view of LeBron's game. It's like you never watched him play past 2008.

Yeah, that's why I kept referencing years way after 2008.

[Indian guy]

[quote]You shoot enough, a few shots will go in especially when you're bigger than every defender.

Yeah, he hit a "few shots" on his way to 36 ppg :rolleyes:. Logic dictates since he wasn't scoring on jump shots and Cleveland neither had any playmakers to set LeBron up nor were they getting in transition, the only way he was scoring was.....wait for it....by consistently beating his man 1-on-1.


Is Karl Malone the same caliber scorer as Michael Jordan?

No, because he scores significantly less on worse efficiency. Particularly in the playoffs.


Is David Robinson a better scorer than Hakeem Olajuwon?

Again, no. Olajuwon scored significantly more in the playoffs on generally better efficiency. D-Rob's game wasn't suited for the grinding nature of the playoffs.

Neither of your examples work. LeBron scores more than Bird on better efficiency. He has also consistently led better offensive teams than Bird. Thus, he's better.


It's easy to score more efficiently if you wait for the perfect opportunity to shoot or get bailed out by foul calls (so fga don't count).

This is weak. How does the player who was supposedly very selective with his shot selection average significantly more ppg? Besides, they both averaged the same amount of FGA for their careers. And :oldlol: @ "getting bailed out by foul calls". Brilliant argument.


The cream rises to the top in the clutch. Did we not see Lebron fade in the fourth quarter 3 or 4 times during the Finals this past year?

What is your obsession with the 2015 Finals? How is 1 series where a 30 year old LeBron lost his 2 best teammates, had a roster compromised of rejects from the league's perennial laughing stock(Knicks) - all against the league's best team somehow a reflection of his whole career? Mind you, he still performed admirably to make the series as competitive as it was. I don't know what more he could've done.

btw, all late-game metrics have LeBron as a fabulous late-game player. His teams generally do very well too - Cleveland had the league's best 4th qtr +/- from 08-10. Miami did in '13 and '14. In 5 of the last 7 seasons, the league's best 4th qtr team featured LeBron.


Game tape says Bird was the more dependable scorer

Makes you wonder why LeBron was the higher scorer on better efficiency in both RS and playoffs, and why his teams had better offenses in both seasons too.


Conversely, Lebron dominates the ball because he can't dominate the game without it. What does Lebron do without the ball? Nothing. Most times, just hang out outside the 3pt line waiting on his teammates to do something or pass it back to him. No movement at all. He has to be reminded to post up. He's not used to playing without the ball.

You have an archaic view of LeBron's game that's simply not based in reality. LeBron couldn't have been further from ball dominant from 12-14, when Spoelstra was able to incorporate a real offense based on a lot of cutting, ball movement and spacing. There's a reason why they were putting up such spectacular offensive ratings year after year. And winning championships.


As a result, Bird's teams had a higher ceiling than Lebron's.

Except LeBron's teams consistently had the better offense. Did you not read any of the advanced stats I posted? LeBron's a GOAT-level offensive player. Basically anything that charts offensive effectiveness, he's up there. Comparing the 80-88 Celtics to LeBron's teams from 09-15(once he had talent around him), the 3 best offenses were led by LeBron. And 4 of the top 5 too. LeBron's simply a better offensive player than Bird. Scores more on better efficiency and leads better offensive teams. What more do you want?


I think even you would admit it was a struggle for them to get it together

They made the NBA Finals in their first season together by posting a #3 ranked offense. Wouldn't call it a "struggle". And they were just free styling in Year 1. Spoelstra didn't even put together a real offense until the following season.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How much you score depends on how much you're shooting. Having more career points means nothing without context. Bird is a better scorer (more skills) and is more clutch.

Guy took a Celtics team who won 29 games in 1979, to the playoffs while leading them to 60+ wins in the regular-season. Larry actually galvanized the team and filled in all the needs - and didn't need to monopolize the ball doing so. A true sign of a great player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird is better at basketball. Lebron is better at basketball-reference. Simple as that.

Bird could dominate and still allowed his teammates to shine because he didn't dominate the ball. He'd get the ball and keep it 2-3 seconds (sometimes less) and make a quick decision to keep the ball moving. This allowed his team to be unpredictable and harder to defend. It is harder to dominate on great teams than it is to carry "scrubs" and Bird was probably better than anyone at this (at least that I've seen).

Bird had a sure shot with no short-term memory and he was considered money in the clutch.

Lebron plays a different game. He's a product of today's over-valuation of stats. First thing Lebron fans do is check his stats. Damn near every post is based on his stats. They base their analysis on what comes out of the box score, not on the game we were just watching. A lot of Lebron's weaknesses don't get talked about because he posts great numbers and Lebron doesn't work on those weaknesses because he posts great numbers.

Lebron is probably top 10 but LebronCareerBoxScore is definitely top 5, maybe top 3. He's the only player I can think of whose box score is better than he is.

Well said...

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron has been the better player based on on-court production and only needs 1 more ring+fmvp to overtake magic on all time list.

Lebron's defense during his peak years puts bird behind him. Bird is not switching on rose or Tony Parker in fourth quarter like lebron did. Wade and lebron's defense on the perimeter made heat a great team. Bird would not have come close to lebron on defense on those heat teams.

[Da_Realist]

Indian guy, we can agree to disagree on most of this but I don't see how anyone can see Lebron as a more dependable offensive player than Larry Bird was. You need to win one quarter to save your life and you could choose Lebron or LB playing at their best and bringing whatever they have to the table, would you seriously choose Lebron? That would be unthinkable to me. If I need a basket, I would choose Larry whether Dennis Rodman is draped all over him, or Pippen or Michael Cooper and especially when it's not an elite defender.

I don't think Lebron would get the job done with Pippen guarding him like his life depended on it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lebron has been the better player based on on-court production and only needs 1 more ring+fmvp to overtake magic on all time list.

Lebron's defense during his peak years puts bird behind him. Bird is not switching on rose or Tony Parker in fourth quarter like lebron did. Wade and lebron's defense on the perimeter made heat a great team. Bird would not have come close to lebron on defense on those heat teams.

**** does switching onto Rose or Parker, in the 4th, has to do with anything? Not even comparing players here but dudes like Karl Malone, Duncan, Oakley, DeBusschere or Dan Roundfield weren't guarding PG's either...

I can also state the fact that Bird's team defense and defense closer to the basket made the Celtics a great defensive team... How about that?
LeBron didn't come close to having the same immediate defensive impact as Larry did with the Celtics, since you wanna go that route.

Matter fact...

-Celtics were a bottom3 ranked defense in 1979... The following year with Bird, new coach Bill Fitch and the same core roster they improve to 4th best defensive team; Larry being 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg, with not even one of his teammates being top10 in either.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for that matter.

-Larry led the league in DWS 4 times, was top5 7 times. He was once 2nd in DRtg, top10 6 times...
Other forwards throughout NBA history who did similar stuff? You got Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Hayes and VERY FEW else if ANY.

-Bird's the leader in DWS from 1980 until 1985... I believe the only forward who can make that claim over a 5-year period, in NBA history.

-Celtics were MUCH better defensively when Bird was on the floor, due to his team defense and defensive rebounding, even versatility.
He was almost always leading the team in DWS and DRtg, while Boston remained one of the best defenses while he was healthier... Coincidentally, the Celtics slipped and dropped considerably in terms of D when Larry's back started to give out on him and he was losing mobility fast, getting older too.

^Guess those are all just big coincidences, huh? :rolleyes: But **** that because Bird wasn't switching on Zeke or Gus Williams in the 4th quarter :rolleyes:

And, tbh, Larry should've made more all-defensive teams. Nowadays with this whole star treatment going around, and with people slobbering over advanced stats... He would've had plenty more.
While I'm not even saying that he was a better overall defender than LeBron or something... James' definitely the better one, mostly due to athleticism though.

Bird's one of the greatest team defenders (has the edge over James at that), pretty good post m2m defender (better than Bron), and more than held his own on the perimeter 1on1 before serious injuries, despite lacking the lateral quickness and being more of a PF (defensively) "forced" to play SF many times. As a rookie he was even the one guarding SF's the most, while he was at his athletic best (would surprise many) and doing a good job many times vs dudes like Dr J, Marques Johnson, Dantley or Robert Reid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s


And again, extremely close but Bird had a better and more impactful peak/prime as an overall player, any unbiased person who has seen enough from both and knows his shit, will tell you that...

[colts19]

**** does switching onto Rose or Parker has to do with anything? Not even comparing players here but dudes like Karl Malone, Duncan, Oakley, DeBusschere or Dan Roundfield weren't guarding PG's either...

I can also state the fact that Bird's team defense and defense closer to the basket made the Celtics a great defensive team... How about that?
LeBron didn't come close to having the same immediate defensive impact as Larry did with the Celtics, since you wanna go that route.

Matter fact...

-Celtics were a bottom3 ranked defense in 1979... The following year with Bird, new coach Bill Fitch and the same core roster they improve to 4th best defensive team; Larry being 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg, with not even one of his teammates being top10 in either.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for that matter.

-Larry led the league in DWS 4 times, was top5 7 times. He was once 2nd in DRtg, top10 6 times...
Other forwards throughout NBA history who did similar stuff? You got Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Hayes and VERY FEW else if ANY.

-Bird's the leader in DWS from 1980 until 1985... I believe the only forward who can make that claim over a 5-year period, in NBA history.

-Celtics were MUCH better defensively when Bird was on the floor, due to his team defense and defensive rebounding, even versatility.
He was almost always leading the team in DWS and DRtg, while Boston remained one of the best defenses while he was healthier... Coincidentally, the Celtics slipped and dropped considerably in terms of D when Larry's back started to give out on him and he was losing mobility fast, getting older too.

^Guess those are all just big coincidences, huh? :rolleyes: But **** that because Bird wasn't switching on Zeke or Gus Williams in the 4th quarter :rolleyes:

And, tbh, Larry should've made more all-defensive teams. Nowadays with this whole star treatment going around, and with people slobbering over advanced stats... He would've had plenty more.
While I'm not even saying that he was a better overall defender than LeBron or something... James' definitely the better one, mostly due to athleticism though.

Bird's one of the greatest team defenders (has the edge over James at that), pretty good post m2m defender (better than Bron), and more than held his own on the perimeter 1on1 before serious injuries, despite lacking the lateral quickness and being more of a PF (defensively) "forced" to play SF many times. As a rookie he was even the one guarding SF's the most, while he was at his athletic best (would surprise many) and doing a good job many times vs dudes like Dr J, Marques Johnson, Dantley or Robert Reid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s


And again, extremely close but Bird had a better and more impactful peak/prime as an overall player, any unbiased person who has seen enough from both and knows his shit, will tell you that...


Larry was the better player. It's to bad alot of these kids didn't see how great he was. The first time I saw Bird he was a redshirt at Indiana State and I watched him in practice, I said at the time this guy is the best forward I have ever seen. He hadn't even played a game yet.

And for you guys that bring up the two 8 point games back to back in the playoffs. Do you realize both those games were in Houston and Boston won one of those games by 27 points and lost the other by 5. Bird outrebounded Moses Malone in both games.

[sd3035]

Well, that's pretty obvious, but Screamin A. is probably salty because Bran left him alone with that hairline

[GimmeThat]

Indian guy, we can agree to disagree on most of this but I don't see how anyone can see Lebron as a more dependable offensive player than Larry Bird was. You need to win one quarter to save your life and you could choose Lebron or LB playing at their best and bringing whatever they have to the table, would you seriously choose Lebron? That would be unthinkable to me. If I need a basket, I would choose Larry

If I need a whole quarter of leaving the opposing team scratching their head and wondering where the next basket is coming, I'll take Lebron.

If I want a whole quarter where all the opposing team could feel like is to stretch out their arm guarding some invisible space, hoping the shot doesn't go in. I'll take Bird.

So would you take 85-90 percent of Lebron (since we want to include TS percentage) for 12 minutes. Or 95-100 percent of Bird for 8 minutes of play, winning the rebounding game, all while not losing out on those 4 minutes.

By the way, what is an 81 point game, a 62 in 3qtr game.

[Rose'sACL]

Larry was the better player. It's to bad alot of these kids didn't see how great he was. The first time I saw Bird he was a redshirt at Indiana State and I watched him in practice, I said at the time this guy is the best forward I have ever seen. He hadn't even played a game yet.

And for you guys that bring up the two 8 point games back to back in the playoffs. Do you realize both those games were in Houston and Boston won one of those games by 27 points and lost the other by 5. Bird outrebounded Moses Malone in both games.
yes. anyone who has a different opinion is flat out wrong and didn't watch bird.
I guess anyone who wasn't alive during second world war should never speak about it at all and any old guy who was alive back then is the right guy no matter how biased he is.

[Rose'sACL]

**** does switching onto Rose or Parker, in the 4th, has to do with anything? Not even comparing players here but dudes like Karl Malone, Duncan, Oakley, DeBusschere or Dan Roundfield weren't guarding PG's either...

I can also state the fact that Bird's team defense and defense closer to the basket made the Celtics a great defensive team... How about that?
LeBron didn't come close to having the same immediate defensive impact as Larry did with the Celtics, since you wanna go that route.

Matter fact...

-Celtics were a bottom3 ranked defense in 1979... The following year with Bird, new coach Bill Fitch and the same core roster they improve to 4th best defensive team; Larry being 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg, with not even one of his teammates being top10 in either.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for that matter.

-Larry led the league in DWS 4 times, was top5 7 times. He was once 2nd in DRtg, top10 6 times...
Other forwards throughout NBA history who did similar stuff? You got Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Hayes and VERY FEW else if ANY.

-Bird's the leader in DWS from 1980 until 1985... I believe the only forward who can make that claim over a 5-year period, in NBA history.

-Celtics were MUCH better defensively when Bird was on the floor, due to his team defense and defensive rebounding, even versatility.
He was almost always leading the team in DWS and DRtg, while Boston remained one of the best defenses while he was healthier... Coincidentally, the Celtics slipped and dropped considerably in terms of D when Larry's back started to give out on him and he was losing mobility fast, getting older too.

^Guess those are all just big coincidences, huh? :rolleyes: But **** that because Bird wasn't switching on Zeke or Gus Williams in the 4th quarter :rolleyes:

And, tbh, Larry should've made more all-defensive teams. Nowadays with this whole star treatment going around, and with people slobbering over advanced stats... He would've had plenty more.
While I'm not even saying that he was a better overall defender than LeBron or something... James' definitely the better one, mostly due to athleticism though.

Bird's one of the greatest team defenders (has the edge over James at that), pretty good post m2m defender (better than Bron), and more than held his own on the perimeter 1on1 before serious injuries, despite lacking the lateral quickness and being more of a PF (defensively) "forced" to play SF many times. As a rookie he was even the one guarding SF's the most, while he was at his athletic best (would surprise many) and doing a good job many times vs dudes like Dr J, Marques Johnson, Dantley or Robert Reid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s


And again, extremely close but Bird had a better and more impactful peak/prime as an overall player, any unbiased person who has seen enough from both and knows his shit, will tell you that...

now bird is the better defender all of a sudden and i am the biased guy according to you.
Go **** yourself you attention starved idiot who writes everything in bold because you are afraid that people might ignore your comment like they ignore you in real life.

[RRR3]

What makes Bird better than Kobe or LeBron all time?
If we are acknowledging LeBron and Kobe were both clearly superior defenders, is Birds offense THAT much better than LeBron and Kobe? I find that hard to believe.

[Rose'sACL]

What makes Bird better than Kobe or LeBron all time?
If we are acknowledging LeBron and Kobe were both clearly superior defenders, is Birds offense THAT much better than LeBron and Kobe? I find that hard to believe.
according to SHAQisGOAT, bird was the better defender.

[RRR3]

according to SHAQisGOAT, bird was the better defender.
More athletic too. Probably more black even.

[colts19]

What makes Bird better than Kobe or LeBron all time?
If we are acknowledging LeBron and Kobe were both clearly superior defenders, is Birds offense THAT much better than LeBron and Kobe? I find that hard to believe.

I have watched both of them. IMHO, Bird was better and if the game was on the line I'm taking Bird. It's the eye test. It's really that simple. Just like what makes Jordon better than Kobe or Lebron, it's the eye test. You can have your opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Bird won 3 titles playing against much superior competition. It amazing that he won three titles playing against the great teams he had to beat to win them. I would take the 1980's Bucks against any of Lebron's teams. Much less the Pistons, Bulls, Sixers and Lakers.

[Rose'sACL]

I have watched both of them. IMHO, Bird was better and if the game was on the line I'm taking Bird. It's the eye test. It's really that simple. Just like what makes Jordon better than Kobe or Lebron, it's the eye test. You can have your opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Bird won 3 titles playing against much superior competition. It amazing that he won three titles playing against the great teams he had to beat to win them. I would take the 1980's Bucks against any of Lebron's teams. Much less the Pistons, Bulls, Sixers and Lakers.
yes, i remember bird winning those 3 titles playing on shitty teams against better talent.
anyways, my eye test> your eye test.

[3ball]

Weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, which puts today's defenses in a quandry: leave someone open on the weakside by flooding, or allow the penetrator to face less strongside defenders by NOT flooding?

Accordingly, today's spacing allows MORE ways for great players like Bird and MJ to take advantage of defenses - they would exploit weaksides that are a man-down, strongsides with less defenders, and defenses that must pick their poison of which one to allow.


Btw - it should be mentioned that previous eras didn't have spacing or weakside spacing, so defenses didn't have to choose between leaving the weakside a man down or the strongside with less defenders.. Weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders didn't need to leave the strongside.. With defenders remaining on the strongside, the strongside was already flooded and today's "strongside flood" strategy was not necessary.. 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) were standard.

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping, and therefore requiring more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no paint-camping, no physicality.. The highest levels of offensive sophistication (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11534471&postcount=108) simply aren't needed for the beginner version of the game.

[Thorpesaurous]

There's a second thread on this, but anyway ...

I think this is really more about stylistic differences. To me they're both among the elite of the elite (my multiple titles and multiple MVPs is my unofficial threshold), so historical ranking becomes sort preferential to me.


And I do think there's something to Bird seeing a bump in value in the current league. Both guys are matchup issues, but Bird's rebounding (and to a degree his post acumen, which while not better than Lebron's, it's more graceful and probably more apt to play against the double teams) puts him closer to a four in the league now.

His shooting becomes a huge asset. And while both are great passers, it's possible Bird's quicker ball movement decisions play better now than Lebron's more attack and create style.

Obviously Lebron has an advantage going end to end, but that's almost era independent. And he has a defensive edge too, but one of the things I think this zone era is going to find is that the ultra athlete is going to lose some value because there's more likely to be someone at the rim on one end, and at the other end, the ability to cover massive amounts of ground quickly may be negated a bit by guys just knowing where to be, because they're allowed to be in spots they weren't allowed in before. Obviously the ability to close out and recover will be an advantage. But the Dwight Howard's of the world who were special because of the unique ability to not be in the paint, and get across the hoops to contest someone coming from the other side, just won't have that skill seen as important as it was during the illegal defense era. All that I think gives Bird's defense a bump in the way Draymond Green is an elite defender in this league without elite athleticism.

In a way Lebron is almost a throwback to the previous era. In spite of the zone having been allowed for a while now, I think we're just starting to see it have it's effect both on how defenses play, how rosters are built, and what's important as a skill on offense to counter it.

I don't think it's unfair to make that choice.

[Da_Realist]

yes. anyone who has a different opinion is flat out wrong and didn't watch bird.
I guess anyone who wasn't alive during second world war should never speak about it at all and any old guy who was alive back then is the right guy no matter how biased he is.

I put more weight in a guy that's watched 1,000 Bird games and 1,000 Lebron games than a guy that's watched maybe 10 Bird games on NBA Classic and 1,000 Lebron games. The 2nd guy ends up filling in all the holes of his analysis by breaking down the game into one-size-fits-all pieces (offense and defense broken down by a myriad of advanced stats).

You know a player by watching 1,000 of his games much more than you can by watching 10 handpicked ones and supplementing that with stats.

Lebron is a better defender than Bird and is more athletic. At the same time, I wouldn't bet my life on him in a do-or-die game. You know when Bird stepped on the court, they had to beat one of the best minds and fearless assassins the game has seen. I don't care that someone else had better defense. I'm not confident at all going against Bird in his prime. Facing him in the playoffs would keep me up at night if I'm a fan of the opposing team.

Lebron does not strike that sort of fear in me or really anyone. He's a better defender, more athletic, better stats, quicker, stronger and yet...he strikes no fear in anyone because for some reason neither he or his teams seem unbeatable. He may quit, he may disappear in the fourth quarter, he may not be able to hit a jump shot just as easily as he can fill up the stat sheet and win the game. Bird may or may not shoot 60% and he may or may not score over thirty but every second he is on the floor he is a threat. There was no quit in him and at any point in the game could put on the best five minutes of basketball you've ever seen. He could have a horrible game and still lift his team in crunch time.

He wasn't the best man defender and he couldn't switch out onto Rose or Curry but it didn't matter. Those are just small details in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, rarely was Larry Bird not the reason you lost.

He was to the 80's what MJ became in the 90's -- that dog you just let lie. Keep quiet, play your as$ off, hope his back is acting up or he breaks a bone in his hand or a cheekbone or something. That slow, lanky, white boy with the awkward shot and the crooked hands that plays no defense...how did he beat your team? Gotta watch way more than 10 handpicked games to figure that out.

[Rose'sACL]

I put more weight in a guy that's watched 1,000 Bird games and 1,000 Lebron games than a guy that's watched maybe 10 Bird games on NBA Classic and 1,000 Lebron games. The 2nd guy ends up filling in all the holes of his analysis by breaking down the game into one-size-fits-all pieces (offense and defense broken down by a myriad of advanced stats).

You know a player by watching 1,000 of his games much more than you can by watching 10 handpicked ones and supplementing that with stats.

Lebron is a better defender than Bird and is more athletic. At the same time, I wouldn't bet my life on him in a do-or-die game. You know when Bird stepped on the court, they had to beat one of the best minds and fearless assassins the game has seen. I don't care that someone else had better defense. I'm not confident at all going against Bird in his prime. Facing him in the playoffs would keep me up at night if I'm a fan of the opposing team.

Lebron does not strike that sort of fear in me or really anyone. He's a better defender, more athletic, better stats, quicker, stronger and yet...he strikes no fear in anyone because for some reason neither he or his teams seem unbeatable. He may quit, he may disappear in the fourth quarter, he may not be able to hit a jump shot just as easily as he can fill up the stat sheet and win the game. Bird may or may not shoot 60% and he may or may not score over thirty but every second he is on the floor he is a threat. There was no quit in him and at any point in the game could put on the best five minutes of basketball you've ever seen. He could have a horrible game and still lift his team in crunch time.

He wasn't the best man defender and he couldn't switch out onto Rose or Curry but it didn't matter. Those are just small details in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, rarely was Larry Bird not the reason you lost.

He was to the 80's what MJ became in the 90's -- that dog you just let lie. Keep quiet, play your as$ off, hope his back is acting up or he breaks a bone in his hand or a cheekbone or something. That slow, lanky, white boy with the awkward shot and the crooked hands that plays no defense...how did he beat your team? Gotta watch way more than 10 handpicked games to figure that out.
i have watched at least 150 bird games from 90s till now on tape or on youtube. almost 100 of those were playoff games.

[bizil]

When it comes to Bird vs. Bron, I think it could come down to how much u value Bron's defensive skills, athletic ability, and handles. That's the reason why many people vault him past Bird peak wise. Because in ALL OTHER REALMS, Bird is just as good or better.

And at the MOST IMPORTANT REALM (alpha dog mentality), Bird is clearly superior. By the scoring numbers, Bron and Bird are the same level. But in terms of killer instinct and clutch gene, Bird is the superior one.

Bron ACTUALLY has a better shot GOAT wise when it comes to being over Bird. If he stays healthy, he will be the GOAT SF. His resume is already on Bird's level. Both guys are flat out gods of the game. They were both the best player in the world at one time in their eras. And they both redefined their positions. Bird is the ONLY SF I can see over Bron peak wise.

[3ball]

i have watched at least 150 bird games from 90s till now on tape or on youtube. almost 100 of those were playoff games.
It's simply easier to play basketball when your teammates are spreading the floor for you.

This means Bird >>>>>>> because he didn't have spacing

Everyone knows spacing makes the game much easier

[Dro]

:facepalm at these morons ranking LeBron above LeBron
I know right? So ****ing stupid. Who the **** would put Lebron over Lebron? :facepalm Me personally, I'd have it the other away around and put Lebron over Lebron.....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I know right? So ****ing stupid. Who the **** would put Lebron over Bird? :facepalm Me personally, I'd have it the other away around and put Bird over Lebron.....

Ima just pretend thats what you meant.. :cheers:

[Young X]

I know right? So ****ing stupid. Who the **** would put Lebron over Lebron? :facepalm Me personally, I'd have it the other away around and put Lebron over Lebron.....Exactly. Lebron could never do this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6szZ4hbumT0

[Nash]

not seen Bird play so I have no idea.

Heard he was good tho'.

[SouBeachTalents]

I know right? So ****ing stupid. Who the **** would put Lebron over Lebron? :facepalm Me personally, I'd have it the other away around and put Lebron over Lebron.....

Bro, you're a clown if you actually rank LeBron over LeBron, and exposing your basketball knowledge as a joke

[3ball]

defenders are allowed to be in spots they weren't allowed in before.



But defenders must go places they didn't have to go before...

Teams attempt 22 three-pointers per game today, so defenders must cover a much larger surface area today than in 1985, when teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game.

Since today's spacing causes the same 5 defenders to cover a larger surface area, offensive players have an advantage over previous era because they have more room literally) to exploit the defense.

Specifically, we know that weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, which puts today's defenses in a quandry: leave someone open on the weakside by flooding, or allow the penetrator to face less strongside defenders by NOT flooding?

Accordingly, today's spacing allows MORE ways for great players like Bird and MJ to take advantage of defenses - they could exploit weaksides that are a man-down, exploit strongsides with less defenders, and exploit defenses that must pick their poison of which one to allow.
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

now bird is the better defender all of a sudden and i am the biased guy according to you.


Can you even read? :rolleyes:


While I'm not even saying that he was a better overall defender than LeBron or something... James' definitely the better one, mostly due to athleticism though.





Go **** yourself you attention starved idiot who writes everything in bold because you are afraid that people might ignore your comment like they ignore you in real life.

Damn, mad af...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llzn30ARSX1qbl4e7o1_500.gif

[Rose'sACL]

Can you even read? :rolleyes:







that is the problem though. i read your whole post.
You wrote that and also mentioned that bird was the better at help defense compared to lebron when that is a straight up lie because lebron is one of the best help defenders of all time.

[Blue&Orange]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380294


Lebron over Bird in statpadding. That's it.

[3ball]

we are seeing what skills are important on offense to counter today's defensive tactics.


You're wrong - new defensive tactics did NOT cause teams to shoot more 3-pointers and drive-and-kick so much.

You must consider what offenses are even POSSIBLE when there's no 3-point line - no 3-pointers means drive-and-kick isn't worthwhile anymore, which is why post, mid-range, isolation, and off-ball were the preferred options back then.

So get it right - the use of post and mid-range had little to do with what specific defensive tactics were available at the time, and everything to do whether 3-point shooting was available to make drive-and-kick worth it over the other options.. 3-point shooting WASN'T available, so drive-and-kick was shunned in favor of post and mid-range..

If you removed the 3-point line in today's game, the same thing would happen - the drive-and-kick wouldn't be worthwhile anymore and teams would start posting again.
.

[Blue&Orange]

How many times i've said there was time Kobe was considered the GOAT and now he is out of the top10, how many times i said same would happen to Lebron, well it's happening, i never thought it would happen during his prime,it only makes it more hilarious.

[pauk]

Their opinion, personally there is only one player i would take over Lebron and that is MJ... wouldnt cry way to much if it was prime Shaq aswell...

Emotionally / "Nostalgically" i would take Reggie Miller, Drazen Petrovic, Pete Maravich, Larry Bird over anybody though... its a shooter thing..

Who wouldn't...



Bird was more clutch and it's not even close, about the same play maker, better shooter and doesn't need to hog the ball like LeBron to produce.

Bird > Lebron all day.

Technically / Statistically he wasnt, Lebron has hit 21 gamewinners to Birds 15 (many more than Bird in playoffs aswell) and averages more points & productions in 4th/OT and clutch time (last 5 mins of 4th/OT with no team ahead of 5 points).... if you want some data/source on that just holla...

I would take Bird (including any pure shooter in NBA history) over Lebron in the clutch ONLY if a perimeter jumpshot was the last resort/shot to tie/win the game.... but with seconds / minute left Lebron has been & is a better creator of high % shots for himself or teammates as evident of what i spoke about in the above paragraph...

[KembaWalker]

Their opinion, personally there is only one player i would take over Lebron and that is MJ... wouldnt cry way to much if it was prime Shaq aswell...

Emotionally / "Nostalgically" i would take Reggie Miller, Drazen Petrovic, Pete Maravich, Larry Bird over anybody though... its a shooter thing..


Technically / Statistically he wasnt, Lebron has hit 21 gamewinners to Birds 15 (many more than Bird in playoffs aswell) and averages more points & productions in 4th/OT and clutch time (last 5 mins of 4th/OT with no team ahead of 5 points).... if you want some data/source on that just holla...

I would take Bird (including any pure shooter in NBA history) over Lebron in the clutch ONLY if a perimeter jumpshot was the last resort/shot to tie/win the game.... but with seconds / minute left Lebron has been & is a better creator of high % shots for himself or teammates as evident of what i spoke about in the above paragraph...

What's their percentages on gamewinners

[SHAQisGOAT]

You wrote that and also mentioned that bird was the better at help defense compared to lebron when that is a straight up lie because lebron is one of the best help defenders of all time.

If you read it before why did you act like I've said that Larry was the better overall defensive player :rolleyes: Gtfoh...

LeBron's a better overall defender (mostly due to athleticism though).. But Bird was a better team defender (with higher defensive awareness), and a better post m2m defender.

Funny because you're all mad, calling me an "attention starved idiot" but you just keep on giving me that attention, you just keep on replying - with short, ignorant answers not even trying or coming close to refute any of my arguments.
:oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

What's their percentages on gamewinners

There's no possible way of him knowing/telling that because there are no clear evidences on how many game-winners Bird made throughout his career...
What pauk wrote there is probably just a made up number he came up with (like he always does), no proof whatsoever.

Plus, there's footage of at least 21 of Bird's game-winners, so even the 15 part is bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Hf-3XvAyk

There's no way that he knows Bird's production in the last 5 minutes of the 4th/OT.

Ofc that everyone here knows that pauk is one of the biggest LeBron's stans and just a major, straight-up liar... So, no surprise there...
This ***** even has the nerve to be saying "emotionally I would take Larry over anybody" and shit :rolleyes: :facepalm :lol

Funny that he still writes stuff down acting like he's very knowledgeable or something, like anyone here still takes him and his dickriding ways seriously :oldlol:



Technically / Statistically he wasnt, Lebron has hit 21 gamewinners to Birds 15 (many more than Bird in playoffs aswell) and averages more points & productions in 4th/OT and clutch time (last 5 mins of 4th/OT with no team ahead of 5 points).... if you want some data/source on that just holla..

Yea, I'll "holla" :rolleyes: Hit us up with some data, some source, some proof... And while you're at it, hit us up with that major Jordan flopping video too :rolleyes: :roll:

[Da_Realist]

There's no possible way of him knowing/telling that because there are no clear evidences on how many game-winners Bird made throughout his career...
What pauk wrote there is probably just a made up number he came up with (like he always does), no proof whatsoever.

Plus, there's footage of at least 21 of Bird's game-winners, so even the 15 part is bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Hf-3XvAyk

There's no way that he knows Bird's production in the last 5 minutes of the 4th/OT.

Ofc that everyone here knows that pauk is one of the biggest LeBron's stans and just a major, straight-up liar... So, no surprise there...
This ***** even has the nerve to be saying "emotionally I would take Larry over anybody" and shit :rolleyes: :facepalm :lol

Funny that he still writes stuff down acting like he's very knowledgeable or something, like anyone here still takes him and his dickriding ways seriously :oldlol:

I'd rather be wrong than a liar. :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

very close.

bird is the better offensive player - higher iq, better shooter (midrange and 3PT), better footwork, better passer, better off of the ball, and a better offensive rebounder. lebron has him beat on defense (and its really not close), athleticism and finishing around the rim.

i think they're both basketball geniuses, however bird is the better basketball player. in a draft knowing about larry's injuries before-hand, i would take lebron though.

[sportjames23]

I put more weight in a guy that's watched 1,000 Bird games and 1,000 Lebron games than a guy that's watched maybe 10 Bird games on NBA Classic and 1,000 Lebron games. The 2nd guy ends up filling in all the holes of his analysis by breaking down the game into one-size-fits-all pieces (offense and defense broken down by a myriad of advanced stats).

You know a player by watching 1,000 of his games much more than you can by watching 10 handpicked ones and supplementing that with stats.

Lebron is a better defender than Bird and is more athletic. At the same time, I wouldn't bet my life on him in a do-or-die game. You know when Bird stepped on the court, they had to beat one of the best minds and fearless assassins the game has seen. I don't care that someone else had better defense. I'm not confident at all going against Bird in his prime. Facing him in the playoffs would keep me up at night if I'm a fan of the opposing team.

Lebron does not strike that sort of fear in me or really anyone. He's a better defender, more athletic, better stats, quicker, stronger and yet...he strikes no fear in anyone because for some reason neither he or his teams seem unbeatable. He may quit, he may disappear in the fourth quarter, he may not be able to hit a jump shot just as easily as he can fill up the stat sheet and win the game. Bird may or may not shoot 60% and he may or may not score over thirty but every second he is on the floor he is a threat. There was no quit in him and at any point in the game could put on the best five minutes of basketball you've ever seen. He could have a horrible game and still lift his team in crunch time.

He wasn't the best man defender and he couldn't switch out onto Rose or Curry but it didn't matter. Those are just small details in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, rarely was Larry Bird not the reason you lost.

He was to the 80's what MJ became in the 90's -- that dog you just let lie. Keep quiet, play your as$ off, hope his back is acting up or he breaks a bone in his hand or a cheekbone or something. That slow, lanky, white boy with the awkward shot and the crooked hands that plays no defense...how did he beat your team? Gotta watch way more than 10 handpicked games to figure that out.


Nothing but the truth. :cheers:

[KembaWalker]

There's no possible way of him knowing/telling that because there are no clear evidences on how many game-winners Bird made throughout his career...
What pauk wrote there is probably just a made up number he came up with (like he always does), no proof whatsoever.

Plus, there's footage of at least 21 of Bird's game-winners, so even the 15 part is bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Hf-3XvAyk

There's no way that he knows Bird's production in the last 5 minutes of the 4th/OT.

Ofc that everyone here knows that pauk is one of the biggest LeBron's stans and just a major, straight-up liar... So, no surprise there...
This ***** even has the nerve to be saying "emotionally I would take Larry over anybody" and shit :rolleyes: :facepalm :lol

Funny that he still writes stuff down acting like he's very knowledgeable or something, like anyone here still takes him and his dickriding ways seriously :oldlol:




Yea, I'll "holla" :rolleyes: Hit us up with some data, some source, some proof... And while you're at it, hit us up with that major Jordan flopping video too :rolleyes: :roll:

lmao that's why I asked because I remember seeing that footage and wanted to see how he'd come up with this number :roll:

Bran stans making up numbers now, you got em shook bruh

[Thorpesaurous]

You're wrong - new defensive tactics did NOT cause teams to shoot more 3-pointers and drive-and-kick so much.

You must consider what offenses are even POSSIBLE when there's no 3-point line - no 3-pointers means drive-and-kick isn't worthwhile anymore, which is why post, mid-range, isolation, and off-ball were the preferred options back then.

So get it right - the use of post and mid-range had little to do with what specific defensive tactics were available at the time, and everything to do whether 3-point shooting was available to make drive-and-kick worth it over the other options.. 3-point shooting WASN'T available, so drive-and-kick was shunned in favor of post and mid-range..

If you removed the 3-point line in today's game, the same thing would happen - the drive-and-kick wouldn't be worthwhile anymore and teams would start posting again.
.


There's a real chicken and the egg thing going on here. The 3 point boom started in large part as a reaction to the flood style, slag style defense that is often attributed to Tom Thibedeux. The zone rules were allowed for some time, but teams hadn't really started exploiting them until the last handful of years. Teams are choosing to make defending the post a higher priority. They can front it because they're allowed to bring weakside defenders further to the back of it. It's made the sideline PnR more difficult. It's led to more high PnR offense, which has led to more kick out opportunities. And continuity, PnR into PnR into PnR type stuff that we saw from GS, and to about as close to perfection from SA, and a ton from Miami, was really a reaction to teams sagging off and making the traditional stuff not work. And that's what's led to multiple penetrations leading more kick opportunities.

Back in the day the illegal defense forced guys on the weakside to stay there or come double team hard. So if you weren't doubling hard, then those weakside shooters were easy closeouts, or even easy denials. The tough play was defending the rim from across the paint. Now they're letting you be in position to defend the rim, and making the close out harder. Teams have chosen to defend the rim mainly at this point. That may change over time.

[Dro]

Ima just pretend thats what you meant.. :cheers:
:lol :applause:

[Dro]

that is the problem though. i read your whole post.
You wrote that and also mentioned that bird was the better at help defense compared to lebron when that is a straight up lie because lebron is one of the best help defenders of all time.
How? Because he's better at chase down blocks?

[3ball]

There's a real chicken and the egg thing going on here. The 3 point boom started in large part as a reaction to the flood style, slag style defense that is often attributed to Tom Thibedeux.


This is factually complete bullshit.

3-point shooting did not "boom" when the Thibbs' introduced his flood.. Teams attempted 17 threes per game in 2007.... 18 per game in 2008... 18 again in 2009.. There was no "boom".

So your argument that there was "boom" is complete, unadulterated bullshit.. You guys write these long diatribes with no facts - I include facts in my shit.





Teams are choosing to make defending the post a higher priority.


You guys never get tired of lying.. The post is barely used in today's game - so why would teams make it a ****ing priority???

The defensive priority for today's teams is to defend drive-and-kick... That's what today's offenses do the most, so THAT'S the defensive priority.

But without 3-pointers, the efficiency of drive-and-kick plummets - without 3-pointers, drive-and-kick would go back into the shadows and post-ups would come back - this conclusively proves the decline in post-ups is due to the availability of great 3-point shooting, not new defensive tactics.. You've said nothing to refute this point but make stuff up that isn't true (i.e. 3-pointers "boomed" after Thibbs', and teams make post defense a priority, even though teams don't post).





in today's game, you're allowed to double a post player before the ball arrives.


Doubling the post before the ball gets there is an extremely obvious move that leaves someone wide open - it prevents a post player from catching it, but that's only a consideration in today's game because the spacing gives players too much time and room to operate once they catch it... The spacing and further distance of help defenders makes today's post players too dangerous when they catch the ball.

Otoh, when there isn't spacing and help defense is much closer, a team is better off NOT compromising their defense by doubling early and leaving someone wide open.. The lack of spacing made previous eras better-equipped to handle a post player that has the ball.





So if you weren't doubling hard, then those weakside shooters were easy closeouts in previous eras, or even easy denials.


Again - pure lies - in the 80's teams didn't attempt 3-pointers, so defenders weren't closing out - like, this is another blatant lie you've told itt.

Also, with no 3-pointers, there was no weakside spacing, so defenders stayed bunched up on the strongside.. With defenders already on the strongside, they didn't need to decide whether to flood or not.

But let me guess - you're going to ignore the facts that there was no 3-point shooting or weakside spacing in the 80's and continue with your lies instead - your lies that there WAS 3-point shooting, spacing, and players had to closeout, even though teams didn't even ATTEMPT 3-pointers back then.. GTFO... take your lies elsewhere





The tough play was defending the rim from across the paint. Now they're letting you be in position to defend the rim, and making the close out harder. Teams have chosen to defend the rim mainly at this point. That may change over time.


More lies - paint-camping was legal in previous eras... So you didn't have to defend from "across the paint" - that's ridiculous - have you ever watched even 1 possession of an old game - the paint was packed at all times due to no spacing and legal paint-camping...

TODAY'S GAME is where you have to defend from across the paint because of defensive 3 seconds - defenders can't be in the paint with no one else around - they have to stand right next to an offensive player at all times, or vacate the paint.. This keeps the paint clear and necessitates defending "across the paint" as you said.





teams in today's game were sagging off pnr's


Sagging off pnr's is STANDARD man-to-man defense in any era - previous era big men shaded and sagged off tremendously on screen-roll action in previous eras, just like today:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8


Notice how after the screen-rolls, MJ is still faced with a packed paint because there's no spacing, so he's forced to pull-up for a lot of jumpshots - that's opposite of today's game, where the paint is empty after the screen-roll because defenders have been drawn to the perimeter by 3-point shooting..
.

[bizil]

I think these two are so close in terms of peak ability and GOAT wise that it comes down to a matter of taste. Both are interesting because they are THE PERIMETER LEGENDS along with Magic that are the bridge between the perimeter and PF position. As great as Kobe, MJ, West, Doc, Wade and Big O are, they can't move to the power positions like those guys.

Bird started and ended his career playing a ton of PF. It was in the middle of his career where Bird played SF more exclusively. Magic played all over the place his whole career. But even at the end of his career, he played a ton of PF. I could see Lebron following suit possibly in his later years.

[Lebron23]

I think these two are so close in terms of peak ability and GOAT wise that it comes down to a matter of taste. Both are interesting because they are THE PERIMETER LEGENDS along with Magic that are the bridge between the perimeter and PF position. As great as Kobe, MJ, West, Doc, Wade and Big O are, they can't move to the power positions like those guys.

Bird started and ended his career playing a ton of PF. It was in the middle of his career where Bird played SF more exclusively. Magic played all over the place his whole career. But even at the end of his career, he played a ton of PF. I could see Lebron following suit possibly in his later years.


I always love reading your posts. You are very informative, and no biased in your posts.

[knicksman]

Why is this even a debate? Bran has to go 4/4 in his next 4 seasons before he can be mentioned in the same sentence with bird

[eeeeeebro]

i guarantee they are all lieing

[NumberSix]

They're clearly all racists.

[aj1987]

LOL @ That Shaq dude harping on about Bird leading his team in multiple statistical categories one time. From 2012-2014, LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, steals, and assists in the Playoffs and the RS. Points, assists, and steals in the '11 RS (#3 in rebounds) and assists and steals in the playoffs (#2 in points, #3 in blocks, and #2 in rebounds). Not to mention he had Wade as a top 3 player for ONE season. Meanwhile, Bird was playing on some ultra stacked teams with MULTIPLE All-Stars, All-Def, and All-NBA players. Not to mention his '84 playoff run? 35, 47, and 50. Those were the games won by the first 3 teams he faced. '12 Heat faced 45, 47, and 52 win teams (adjusted to 82 games). That '84 run is actually more comparable to the '13 Heat's run.

If you want to bring up LeBron's chokes, you should also not forget about the epic chokes that Bird himself had.

[SHAQisGOAT]

LOL @ That Shaq dude harping on about Bird leading his team in multiple statistical categories one time. From 2012-2014, LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, steals, and assists in the Playoffs and the RS. Points, assists, and steals in the '11 RS (#3 in rebounds) and assists and steals in the playoffs (#2 in points, #3 in blocks, and #2 in rebounds). Not to mention he had Wade as a top 3 player for ONE season. Meanwhile, Bird was playing on some ultra stacked teams with MULTIPLE All-Stars, All-Def, and All-NBA players. Not to mention his '84 playoff run? 35, 47, and 50. Those were the games won by the first 3 teams he faced. '12 Heat faced 45, 47, and 52 win teams (adjusted to 82 games). That '84 run is actually more comparable to the '13 Heat's run.

If you want to bring up LeBron's chokes, you should also not forget about the epic chokes that Bird himself had.

Cool, because Bird never led his team in multiple statistical categories more than once, as well :rolleyes:
(while not even being the statpadder LeBron is)

Can you read though? Know what I was talking about that LeBron NEVER did, nor anyone else for that matter? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% for a whole Playoff run; more than 20 games while winning the title at that.
Put that shit in the coffin right there.


Read this here below, please, any time you wanna talk about stacked teams and such :facepalm :lol



Oh, and replace (prime) LeBron in the 2011 Finals with (prime) Bird... Heat definitely win.

Larry also had a better Finals series as a sophomore, while winning (and deserved FMVP), than James in 2007.

...

Nah, you know what people really forget about?...

-Larry was drafted into a franchise falling apart with the 2nd worst record in the league, many internal problems and attendances at an all-time low...
He INSTANTLY changed all of that; leading them to best record and the ECF in his 1st year with the same core roster, title by his sophomore year with Cowens gone and the only main addition being Parish who was already 27 and not viewed as much at all, so on...
Larry Legend was the MAIN cornerstone of a dynasty.

-Bird EASILY played against better competition than LeBron, individually (position and superstars) and collectively.
Continue to compare accolades at face-value though :rolleyes: :facepalm

-LeBron couldn't win it all so he joined two already ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player, and then bolted again when the ship was sinking...
Larry built from the ground up, stayed through thick and thin, developed along with the flow, proved his unreal value, proved himself as a bigger winner than LeBron ever did/could; C's were shitty before him, MUCH BETTER when he came along, considerably worse when he was out, considerably better even with him as a shell, shitty again for a long time after he retired...

-Bird's 1984 post-season run is a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did as far as that or could muster, even...
Most Celtics playing WELL BELOW their standards while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (:bowdown: nobody ever did that) all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition, clutch af.

-LB "made" lots of names...
Parish definitely wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now had he stayed in GS.
Think McHale could've gotten to the HoF "by his own" but don't forget he was DRAFTED by Boston, only really coming into his own by 1985, peaked in 1987 while getting severely injured in that same year, never the same again.
DJ was out of shape and viewed as a locker-room cancer before the C's picked him up with Bird's consentiment, playing for Boston cemented Dennis career with him making the HoF.
Maxwell "got" better when Larry came around.

-Everything's clicking in 1986 for Boston, everything in line, terrific talent coming together... Bird doesn't just lead a tremendous team, he leads what most call the GOAT team; most of that due to peak Larry, playing at a level that EXTREMELY FEW ever even get close to, killing the competition.
What James did when he joined the Heat with Wade and Bosh, or now with Love and Kyrie... Can't begin to **** with the way Larry was leading that '86 squad, or their level of play with Bird at the helm.

-Bird was the ultimate competitor, played better under pressure, wanted to tear his opponents' hearts out, talked shit with the best of them while backing it up, never backing down from a challenge...
LeBron? Well, not so much :oldlol:
Shit, if Marion went out calling LB a bitch, for example... You can bet that Larry Joe destroys him and the Mavs afterwards, while talking the most trash.



This ***** really wanna act like LeBron had better competition? :roll: Even talking about adjusting wins in that lockout season :oldlol:

Throughout the 1984 Playoffs, for example, Bird's Celtics beat:

-Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes...
2012 Thunder can't even see them.

-Bucks with Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Lanier, Junior Bridgeman, Pressey and Lister...
Better team than those Celtics that pushed the Heat to 7 games.

-Knicks with King, Cartwright, Truck Robinson, Ray Williams, Sparrow and Darrell Walker...
Peak Bernard clearly a better SF than 2012 Carmelo; dude would've went HAM on Miami.

OVERALL, the competition that LeBron's Heat faced throughout the 2012 Playoffs was definitely not as good as that, especially in the Finals...
Shit, Heat wouldn't even win against those Lakers, while Larry just went buckwild and pulled Boston through...

Keep on talking about wins though, or adjusted wins :lol


Sure... But Bird never choked as much as LeBron, and LeBron's not the clutch performer Bird was, period.

[aj1987]

Cool, because Bird never led his team in multiple statistical categories more than once, as well :rolleyes:
(while not even being the statpadder LeBron is)

Can you read though? Know what I was talking about that LeBron NEVER did, nor anyone else for that matter? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% for a whole Playoff run; more than 20 games while winning the title at that.
Put that shit in the coffin right there.


Read this here below, please, any time you wanna talk about stacked teams and such :facepalm :lol

This ***** really wanna act like LeBron had better competition? :roll: Even talking about adjusting wins in that lockout season :oldlol:

Throughout the 1984 Playoffs, for example, Bird's Celtics beat:

-Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes...
2012 Thunder can't even see them.

-Bucks with Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Lanier, Junior Bridgeman, Pressey and Lister...
Better team than those Celtics that pushed the Heat to 7 games.

-Knicks with King, Cartwright, Truck Robinson, Ray Williams, Sparrow and Darrell Walker...
Peak Bernard clearly a better SF than 2012 Carmelo; dude would've went HAM on Miami.

OVERALL, the competition that LeBron's Heat faced throughout the 2012 Playoffs was definitely not as good as that, especially in the Finals...
Shit, Heat wouldn't even win against those Lakers, while Larry just went buckwild and pulled Boston through...

Keep on talking about wins though, or adjusted wins :lol


Sure... But Bird never choked as much as LeBron, and LeBron's not the clutch performer Bird was, period.
Stop melting down, old man.

Fact #1 - Bird played on more stacked teams than LeBron.
Fact #2 - Bird choked as much as LeBron did. Let's not try to rewrite history.
Fact #3 - DJ was making All-NBA, All-Star, and All-Def teams before coming to the Celtics.
Fact #4 - LeBron > Bird.

The only think I'll give you is that Bird faced better competition, which is offset but his incredibly stacked teams.

Continue with your nostalgia though.

[Dragonyeuw]

The 80's featured a number of stacked teams. You pretty much needed 3 legit all-stars and a couple of near-allstars to be a contender.

[Rocketswin2013]

The 80's featured a number of stacked teams. You pretty much needed 3 legit all-stars and a couple of near-allstars to be a contender.
Sounds like today's West.

[Trollsmasher]

There's no possible way of him knowing/telling that because there are no clear evidences on how many game-winners Bird made throughout his career...
What pauk wrote there is probably just a made up number he came up with (like he always does), no proof whatsoever.

Plus, there's footage of at least 21 of Bird's game-winners, so even the 15 part is bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Hf-3XvAyk

There's no way that he knows Bird's production in the last 5 minutes of the 4th/OT.

Ofc that everyone here knows that pauk is one of the biggest LeBron's stans and just a major, straight-up liar... So, no surprise there...
This ***** even has the nerve to be saying "emotionally I would take Larry over anybody" and shit :rolleyes: :facepalm :lol

Funny that he still writes stuff down acting like he's very knowledgeable or something, like anyone here still takes him and his dickriding ways seriously :oldlol:




Yea, I'll "holla" :rolleyes: Hit us up with some data, some source, some proof... And while you're at it, hit us up with that major Jordan flopping video too :rolleyes: :roll:
did you even read what the video maker defined as a game winning shot (wrong definition btw)

also here are Bird's documented gamewinners, feel free to add if you find any additional ones

http://basketball.wikia.com/wiki/User:Hornean/Archive/NBA_and_WNBA/Game-Winning_Shooters/Larry_Bird's_Game-Winning_Shots


LOL @ That Shaq dude harping on about Bird leading his team in multiple statistical categories one time. From 2012-2014, LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, steals, and assists in the Playoffs and the RS. Points, assists, and steals in the '11 RS (#3 in rebounds) and assists and steals in the playoffs (#2 in points, #3 in blocks, and #2 in rebounds). Not to mention he had Wade as a top 3 player for ONE season. Meanwhile, Bird was playing on some ultra stacked teams with MULTIPLE All-Stars, All-Def, and All-NBA players. Not to mention his '84 playoff run? 35, 47, and 50. Those were the games won by the first 3 teams he faced. '12 Heat faced 45, 47, and 52 win teams (adjusted to 82 games). That '84 run is actually more comparable to the '13 Heat's run.

If you want to bring up LeBron's chokes, you should also not forget about the epic chokes that Bird himself had.
let's not forget LeBron is a RUNAWAY leader in PO games where he leads his team in all three major categories

and by runaway I mean that nobody is even close.

http://puu.sh/jFQdk/8fc630c8c6.png

[SHAQisGOAT]

Stop melting down, old man.

Fact #1 - Bird played on more stacked teams than LeBron.
Fact #2 - Bird choked as much as LeBron did. Let's not try to rewrite history.
Fact #3 - DJ was making All-NBA, All-Star, and All-Def teams before coming to the Celtics.
Fact #4 - LeBron > Bird.

The only think I'll give you is that Bird faced better competition, which is offset but his incredibly stacked teams.

Continue with your nostalgia though.


This ***** bringing up old-ass threads and then acts like I'm the one melting down :rolleyes:

It's clear that you don't even know what you're talking about here...

You don't try or can't even begin to refute any of my arguments... Keep showing us how ignorant you are though, with them weak-ass, short posts, basically saying 0 :oldlol:

Stay mad...

[RRR3]

LeBron has a better resume. ShaqisGOAT saltier than the Dead Sea. If LeBron wins another FMVP and ring it's curtains for Bird :eek:

[aj1987]

LeBron has a better resume. ShaqisGOAT saltier than the Dead Sea. If LeBron wins another FMVP and ring it's curtains for Bird :eek:
I literally used FACTS and numbers to prove my points in my post and that idiot completely disregards everything and brings up his own OPINIONS.

"From 2012-2014, LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, steals, and assists in the Playoffs and the RS. Points, assists, and steals in the '11 RS (#3 in rebounds) and assists and steals in the playoffs (#2 in points, #3 in blocks, and #2 in rebounds). Not to mention he had Wade as a top 3 player for ONE season. Meanwhile, Bird was playing on some ultra stacked teams with MULTIPLE All-Stars, All-Def, and All-NBA players. Not to mention his '84 playoff run? 35, 47, and 50. Those were the games won by the first 3 teams he faced. '12 Heat faced 45, 47, and 52 win teams (adjusted to 82 games). That '84 run is actually more comparable to the '13 Heat's run."

But but he made Parish and McHale doe.... :roll:

BTW, the last post in this thread was 4 days ago, you bold font retard.

This can actually be a discussion when LeBron chokes like Bird in the '81 Finals. 9 PPG over 3 games in the Finals. That's a choke, you moron.

[RRR3]

I literally used FACTS and numbers to prove my points in my post and that idiot completely disregards everything and brings up his own OPINIONS.

"From 2012-2014, LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, steals, and assists in the Playoffs and the RS. Points, assists, and steals in the '11 RS (#3 in rebounds) and assists and steals in the playoffs (#2 in points, #3 in blocks, and #2 in rebounds). Not to mention he had Wade as a top 3 player for ONE season. Meanwhile, Bird was playing on some ultra stacked teams with MULTIPLE All-Stars, All-Def, and All-NBA players. Not to mention his '84 playoff run? 35, 47, and 50. Those were the games won by the first 3 teams he faced. '12 Heat faced 45, 47, and 52 win teams (adjusted to 82 games). That '84 run is actually more comparable to the '13 Heat's run."

But but he made Parish and McHale doe.... :roll:

BTW, the last post in this thread was 4 days ago, you bold font retard.

This can actually be a discussion when LeBron chokes like Bird in the '81 Finals. 9 PPG over 3 games in the Finals. That's a choke, you moron.
B-b-b-but Bird nearly out rebounded Moses doe :cry:

[Trollsmasher]

B-b-b-but Bird nearly out rebounded Moses doe :cry:
b-b-bird was only doing what the winning required, i-i-it's not a total luck that they won in spite of his choking

[RRR3]

b-b-bird was only doing what the winning required, i-i-it's not a total luck that they won in spite of his choking
Dat will to win :bowdown:


Series getting tight?

It's Bird time!!

WHAM!! 8 points!


POW!!!! 8 points!!!


KA-BOOOOOM!!!! 12, count 'em, 12 points!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cool, because Bird never led his team in multiple statistical categories more than once, as well :rolleyes:
(while not even being the statpadder LeBron is)

Can you read though? Know what I was talking about that LeBron NEVER did, nor anyone else for that matter? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% for a whole Playoff run; more than 20 games while winning the title at that.
Put that shit in the coffin right there.


Read this here below, please, any time you wanna talk about stacked teams and such :facepalm :lol




This ***** really wanna act like LeBron had better competition? :roll: Even talking about adjusting wins in that lockout season :oldlol:

Throughout the 1984 Playoffs, for example, Bird's Celtics beat:

-Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes...
2012 Thunder can't even see them.

-Bucks with Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Lanier, Junior Bridgeman, Pressey and Lister...
Better team than those Celtics that pushed the Heat to 7 games.

-Knicks with King, Cartwright, Truck Robinson, Ray Williams, Sparrow and Darrell Walker...
Peak Bernard clearly a better SF than 2012 Carmelo; dude would've went HAM on Miami.

OVERALL, the competition that LeBron's Heat faced throughout the 2012 Playoffs was definitely not as good as that, especially in the Finals...
Shit, Heat wouldn't even win against those Lakers, while Larry just went buckwild and pulled Boston through...

Keep on talking about wins though, or adjusted wins :lol


Sure... But Bird never choked as much as LeBron, and LeBron's not the clutch performer Bird was, period.

Too many facts for the Bran brigade:

http://media.giphy.com/media/XEajDE6Fxs9q/giphy.gif

[Megabox!]

LBJ > Bird, it's very, very close tho

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LBJ > Bird, it's very, very close tho

I think Larry > LeBron as a PURE basketball player, but LeBron with another ring/finals mvp ALONG w/ elite play would supersede him on an all-time scale. For sure.

[KirbyPls]

Dat will to win :bowdown:


Series getting tight?

It's Bird time!!

WHAM!! 8 points!


POW!!!! 8 points!!!


KA-BOOOOOM!!!! 12, count 'em, 12 points!

Clutch as Fk! :eek:

[RRR3]

Read this here below, please, any time you wanna talk about stacked teams and such :facepalm :lol




This ***** really wanna act like LeBron had better competition? :roll: Even talking about adjusting wins in that lockout season :oldlol:

Throughout the 1984 Playoffs, for example, Bird's Celtics beat:

-Lakers with Kareem Legend, but he was getting older, obvious still a superstar, Magic legend, Worthy great player, but only his 2nd season remember, McAdoo great player, crazy he was the backup, Cooper great defender, Rambis hahahaha dude averaged 4 and 6 :roll: , Scott rookie, played like 21 MPG and Wilkes averaged 5/2 in the playoffs :oldlol: ...
2012 Thunder can't even see them. Durant 28/8/4/1/1 and 29/7/4/2/1 in playoffs. Westbrook 24/5/6/2/0 and 23/6/6/6/2/0 in playoffs. Harden 17/4/4 in 31 MPG and 16/5/3 in 32 MPG in playoffs. Ibaka was a nice piece as well, though not anything special. Thabo a good 3 and d guy. They weren't the 84 Lakers but they had a lot of starpower.

-Bucks with Moncrief great player, Marques Johnson very good, Lanier old and washed up averaged 14/6, and 12/7 in playoffs :sleeping , Junior Bridgeman , Pressey 8/4/3, 9/4/3 in playoffs. legendary stuff. I'm aware he was a good player btw, so don't get madand Lister what makes him different from any other good defensive center?...
Better team than those Celtics that pushed the Heat to 7 games.
Were they? Rondo put up 12/5/12/2 and 17/7/12/2 in the playoffs. Pierce averaged 19/5/5 and 19/6/3 in the playoffs. KG was still putting up 16/8 in 31 MPG and 19/10 in the playoffs. Ray wasn't a scrub either, but to be fair he was injured and ineffective in the playoffs IIRC.

-Knicks with King great player, Cartwright nothing spectacular last time i heard, Truck Robinson 11/8 that year, Ray Williams looks like he was pretty solid, Sparrow who? and Darrell Walkeryou yourself implied he was the definition of mediocrity the other day...
Peak Bernard clearly a better SF than 2012 Carmelo; dude would've went HAM on Miami.
Why are you comparing the Celtics SECOND round opponent to the team the Heat faced in the first round? Agenda exposed. The Celtics faced the ****in 35-47 Bullets in round 1 :oldlol: The 12 Knicks won more games in a lockout season :roll: :facepalm

The 12 Knicks had a decent enough team anyways. Nothing special of course. But not garbage.




Sure... But Bird never choked as much as LeBron, and LeBron's not the clutch performer Bird was, period.
....

That's what I see based on b-ref, my dude. Would appreciate hearing why the stats don't tell the whole story, please tell me without using dumb narratives.

[Trollsmasher]

....

That's what I see based on b-ref, my dude. Would appreciate hearing why the stats don't tell the whole story, please tell me without using dumb narratives.
rat poison

I like he just drops names like they are all supposed to mean something - meanwhile Darrell Walker averaged 8/4 on 51% TS in '84:lol

[thefatmiral]

Ask someone who played against them both. Kevin willie

[Wade's Rings]

Dat will to win :bowdown:


Series getting tight?

It's Bird time!!

WHAM!! 8 points!


POW!!!! 8 points!!!


KA-BOOOOOM!!!! 12, count 'em, 12 points!

One of those Games was a 27 Point Boston Victory. He also cane through clutch ,IIRC, in Games 1 & 6. Bron didn't come through clutch in any game in that series.

[SHAQisGOAT]

LeBron has a better resume. ShaqisGOAT saltier than the Dead Sea. If LeBron wins another FMVP and ring it's curtains for Bird

Dat will to win


Series getting tight?

It's Bird time!!

WHAM!! 8 points!


POW!!!! 8 points!!!


KA-BOOOOOM!!!! 12, count 'em, 12 points!

This mf'er always running around with my name in posts :facepalm Must even think of me when he's sleeping or something, goddamn.

And why do you post like a child? Think it's funny or something? Got nothing substancial to say so you just resort to that type of bullshit, I see...


Like I've said before, I can just compare Bird's 1981 Finals to LeBron's 2007 Finals...

-Both were about the same age but LeBron was a 4-year pro (all with the same franchise) while Bird was a sophomore.

-Wanna discuss teammates? I'll end it at:
Boston had major internal problems, with attendances at an all-time low, and went 29-53 (2nd worst record) just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they improve by 32W, post the best record and get to the ECF.
^In the following year, Cowens was gone and Parish - who was already 27 and not viewed as all that - was the main acquisition (McHale was a rookie doing little); and they win it all!
Instant, ridiculous type of impact right there... LeBron can't see that.

-Bird's Celtics actually won the series, LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a single game :lol
And people who know their shit realize that the FMVP belonged to Larry... There's no way he "loses it" like at least 5 years later on, same "situation" given.

-James scored 7 more PPG than Larry yes, but on way worse efficiency... And Bird was MUCH better in terms of rebounding (almost at the same rate as prime Moses) and physicality/hustle, has the edge in playmaking/passing, even had plenty of more steals.
Larry WAY clutcher, better leader, raising his teammates level much more.

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Wanna go through some of the games? So we can discuss your beloved Bird's 8-points outputs and more? Sure...

-Bird opens up with one of his most historic games, just everywhere on the court, hustling all out, raw af, clutch... 18/21/9 on 9-17 FG; Celtics won by 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

-LeBron opens up with 14 points on 4-16 from the floor, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 6 TO's http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scust.png Cavs lost by 9.

-Larry only scored 8 on 3-11 FG in game3 yea, but also had 13 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 steals and 2 blocks... While the Celtics won by 23; guess he should've just stayed in to pad them scoring numbers kinda like LeBron does, huh? :rolleyes:

-How about James with those 24 points and 10 assists in game4 :bowdown: On 10-30 shooting though, with 6 TO's while his team lost by 1 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scusthov.gif
Spurs completing the sweep in Cleveland, in their turf.

-Bird closed out the Rockets in game6 with 27/13/5 on 11-20 FG, 4-5 FT...
Clutch af, scoring 9 of the team's 11 in the decisive late run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

I won't even go on much about Bird's 1981 ECF against the best team in the league (76ers) and the MVP (Dr J)... SHITS on everything Bron did for the 2007 Playoffs, just to say the least...


Now what you wanna do? Compare Bird's 1984 Finals to LeBron's 2011 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png
Cool...

Most of Larry's teammates playing well below their standards for the Playoffs while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title.
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/wow.png
Can you grasp something like that? ^ Not LeBron nor anyone else have ever did something as ridiculous as that...

Then in the Finals, Bird's Celtics winning vs a Lakers' team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Wilkes and Scott :eek: With LB wrecking shit up.

^One of the best carry jobs ever, better than any of LeBron's or anything he could muster.

Meanwhile James joined two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS% for the 2011 Finals while LeBron was choking them out of a title :facepalm

Heat getting killed by a dude with a game many compare to Bird's... Larry being a bit shorter but more athletic, while an infinitely better passer, with the edge in rebounding and clutch play, being a much better defender, more cold-blooded, tougher and just trash-talking the hell out of anyone while backing it up.
Now picture what Bird would do... Shiieet!!


And Bird's level in 1986 > LeBron's in 2012, even if very close.
Peak Larry playing some level of basketball that EXTREMELY FEW have ever reached, just leading what many call the GOAT team, tearing the league apart, LB just like Neo on the Matrix...

Larry Joe proved he could turn a franchise around, proved he could carry a team to the title, and then when everything was clicking with the talent coming together he also proved that he could lead a tremendous team on some historic shit...
LeBron can't **** with all of the above combined, tbh.


What now? Wanna add something to any of my posts here? Or just continue to post ignorant, kiddie shit while not being able to refute anything? Or do you even just want to continue to mention my name in most of your posts around this board?

Take the L and move on, child...

[Rocketswin2013]

This mf'er always running around with my name in posts :facepalm Must even think of me when he's sleeping or something, goddamn.

And why do you post like a child? Think it's funny or something? Got nothing substancial to say so you just resort to that type of bullshit, I see...


Like I've said before, I can just compare Bird's 1981 Finals to LeBron's 2007 Finals...

-Both were about the same age but LeBron was a 4-year pro (all with the same franchise) while Bird was a sophomore.

-Wanna discuss teammates? I'll end it at:
Boston had major internal problems, with attendances at an all-time low, and went 29-53 (2nd worst record) just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they improve by 32W, post the best record and get to the ECF.
^In the following year, Cowens was gone and Parish - who was already 27 and not viewed as all that - was the main acquisition (McHale was a rookie doing little); and they win it all!
Instant, ridiculous type of impact right there... LeBron can't see that.

-Bird's Celtics actually won the series, LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a single game :lol
And people who know their shit realize that the FMVP belonged to Larry... There's no way he "loses it" like at least 5 years later on, same "situation" given.

-James scored 7 more PPG than Larry yes, but on way worse efficiency... And Bird was MUCH better in terms of rebounding (almost at the same rate as prime Moses) and physicality/hustle, has the edge in playmaking/passing, even had plenty of more steals.
Larry WAY clutcher, better leader, raising his teammates level much more.

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Wanna go through some of the games? So we can discuss your beloved Bird's 8-points outputs and more? Sure...

-Bird opens up with one of his most historic games, just everywhere on the court, hustling all out, raw af, clutch... 18/21/9 on 9-17 FG; Celtics won by 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

-LeBron opens up with 14 points on 4-16 from the floor, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 6 TO's http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scust.png Cavs lost by 9.

-Larry only scored 8 on 3-11 FG in game3 yea, but also had 13 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 steals and 2 blocks... While the Celtics won by 23; guess he should've just stayed in to pad them scoring numbers kinda like LeBron does, huh? :rolleyes:

-How about James with those 24 points and 10 assists in game4 :bowdown: On 10-30 shooting though, with 6 TO's while his team lost by 1 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scusthov.gif
Spurs completing the sweep in Cleveland, in their turf.

-Bird closed out the Rockets in game6 with 27/13/5 on 11-20 FG, 4-5 FT...
Clutch af, scoring 9 of the team's 11 in the decisive late run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

I won't even go on much about Bird's 1981 ECF against the best team in the league (76ers) and the MVP (Dr J)... SHITS on everything Bron did for the 2007 Playoffs, just to say the least...


Now what you wanna do? Compare Bird's 1984 Finals to LeBron's 2011 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png
Cool...

Most of Larry's teammates playing well below their standards for the Playoffs while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/wow.png
Can you grasp something like that? ^ Not LeBron nor anyone else have ever did something as ridiculous as that...

Then in the Finals, Bird's Celtics winning vs a Lakers' team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Wilkes and Scott :eek: With LB wrecking shit up.

^One of the best carry jobs ever, better than any of LeBron's or anything he could muster.

Meanwhile James joined two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS% for the 2011 Finals while LeBron was choking them out of a title :facepalm

Heat getting killed by a dude with a game many compare to Bird's... Larry being a bit shorter but more athletic, while an infinitely better passer, with the edge in rebounding and clutch play, being a much better defender, more cold-blooded, tougher and just trash-talking the hell out of anyone while backing it up.
Now picture what Bird would do... Shiieet!!


And Bird's level in 1986 > LeBron's in 2012, even if very close.
Peak Larry playing some level of basketball that EXTREMELY FEW have ever reached, just leading what many call the GOAT team, tearing the league apart, LB just like Neo on the Matrix...

Larry Joe proved he could turn a franchise around, proved he could carry a team to the title, and then when everything was clicking with the talent coming together he also proved that he could lead a tremendous team on some historic shit...
LeBron can't **** with all of the above combined, tbh.


What now? Wanna add something to any of my posts here? Or just continue to post ignorant, kiddie shit while not being able to refute anything? Or do you even just want to continue to mention my name in most of your posts around this board?

Take the L and move on, child...

So you compare one of LeBron's worst years to Bird, say something subjective(and likely impossible to prove) like '86 > '12 LeBron, and list arbitrary stuff like leading a team in statistical categories and turning a franchise around?

Serious questions; Do you even to be objective? And why be so emotional?

Why do you disregard stats unless it's you nitpicking certain games?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This mf'er always running around with my name in posts :facepalm Must even think of me when he's sleeping or something, goddamn.

And why do you post like a child? Think it's funny or something? Got nothing substancial to say so you just resort to that type of bullshit, I see...


Like I've said before, I can just compare Bird's 1981 Finals to LeBron's 2007 Finals...

-Both were about the same age but LeBron was a 4-year pro (all with the same franchise) while Bird was a sophomore.

-Wanna discuss teammates? I'll end it at:
Boston had major internal problems, with attendances at an all-time low, and went 29-53 (2nd worst record) just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they improve by 32W, post the best record and get to the ECF.
^In the following year, Cowens was gone and Parish - who was already 27 and not viewed as all that - was the main acquisition (McHale was a rookie doing little); and they win it all!
Instant, ridiculous type of impact right there... LeBron can't see that.

-Bird's Celtics actually won the series, LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a single game :lol
And people who know their shit realize that the FMVP belonged to Larry... There's no way he "loses it" like at least 5 years later on, same "situation" given.

-James scored 7 more PPG than Larry yes, but on way worse efficiency... And Bird was MUCH better in terms of rebounding (almost at the same rate as prime Moses) and physicality/hustle, has the edge in playmaking/passing, even had plenty of more steals.
Larry WAY clutcher, better leader, raising his teammates level much more.

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Wanna go through some of the games? So we can discuss your beloved Bird's 8-points outputs and more? Sure...

-Bird opens up with one of his most historic games, just everywhere on the court, hustling all out, raw af, clutch... 18/21/9 on 9-17 FG; Celtics won by 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

-LeBron opens up with 14 points on 4-16 from the floor, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 6 TO's http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scust.png Cavs lost by 9.

-Larry only scored 8 on 3-11 FG in game3 yea, but also had 13 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 steals and 2 blocks... While the Celtics won by 23; guess he should've just stayed in to pad them scoring numbers kinda like LeBron does, huh? :rolleyes:

-How about James with those 24 points and 10 assists in game4 :bowdown: On 10-30 shooting though, with 6 TO's while his team lost by 1 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scusthov.gif
Spurs completing the sweep in Cleveland, in their turf.

-Bird closed out the Rockets in game6 with 27/13/5 on 11-20 FG, 4-5 FT...
Clutch af, scoring 9 of the team's 11 in the decisive late run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

I won't even go on much about Bird's 1981 ECF against the best team in the league (76ers) and the MVP (Dr J)... SHITS on everything Bron did for the 2007 Playoffs, just to say the least...


Now what you wanna do? Compare Bird's 1984 Finals to LeBron's 2011 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png
Cool...

Most of Larry's teammates playing well below their standards for the Playoffs while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/wow.png
Can you grasp something like that? ^ Not LeBron nor anyone else have ever did something as ridiculous as that...

Then in the Finals, Bird's Celtics winning vs a Lakers' team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Wilkes and Scott :eek: With LB wrecking shit up.

^One of the best carry jobs ever, better than any of LeBron's or anything he could muster.

Meanwhile James joined two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS% for the 2011 Finals while LeBron was choking them out of a title

Heat getting killed by a dude with a game many compare to Bird's... Larry being a bit shorter but more athletic, while an infinitely better passer, with the edge in rebounding and clutch play, being a much better defender, more cold-blooded, tougher and just trash-talking the hell out of anyone while backing it up.
Now picture what Bird would do... Shiieet!!


And Bird's level in 1986 > LeBron's in 2012, even if very close.
Peak Larry playing some level of basketball that EXTREMELY FEW have ever reached, just leading what many call the GOAT team, tearing the league apart, LB just like Neo on the Matrix...

Larry Joe proved he could turn a franchise around, proved he could carry a team to the title, and then when everything was clicking with the talent coming together he also proved that he could lead a tremendous team on some historic shit...
LeBron can't **** with all of the above combined, tbh.


What now? Wanna add something to any of my posts here? Or just continue to post ignorant, kiddie shit while not being able to refute anything? Or do you even just want to continue to mention my name in most of your posts around this board?

Take the L and move on, child...


Damn RRR3, you gonna respond to this delicious ether? POTY candidate fosho. :bowdown:

[SHAQisGOAT]

So you compare one of LeBron's worst years to Bird, say something subjective(and likely impossible to prove) like '86 > '12 LeBron, and list arbitrary stuff like leading a team in statistical categories and turning a franchise around?

Serious questions; Do you even to be objective? And why be so emotional?

Why do you disregard stats unless it's you nitpicking certain games?

I've compared their 1st Finals series; both at about the same age, even with LeBron being a 4-year pro already.
I've then compared two Finals from both, in their prime and at around the same age also.
What's wrong about any of that? ^ :confusedshrug: If it goes like you want to, we wouldn't even compare anything...

Subjective? Yea, maybe til some point... But people who have seen enough from both and know their shit while speaking unbiasedly, will tell you that peak Bird was a better, more impactful overall player than peak LeBron, even if extremely close.

Turning a franchise around, staying through thick and thin while building a dynasty from the ground up as the center-piece... is "arbitrary stuff"? :wtf: :facepalm

I wouldn't really call leading a team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, that arbitrary or something but whatever... Those are the main stats in basketball, what more do you want? And he won it all, with most of his teammates playing well below their standards...

If you can't understand how unreal that^ is, I don't even know what to tell ya :confusedshrug: Can you grasp the level he (and his teammates) had to be at?
And that's for more than 20 games, that's all the way to the title against some GOAT-level competition.

-Very few times you'll see a player leading his team in FG% while also leading in FT%, and here you got him leading in points as well.
-You'll usually see bigmen who play closer to the basket leading their teams in FG%... Bird was out on the perimeter plenty, sharpshooting, even led the team in FT% like I've said.
-You'll usually see bigmen leading their team in rebounding... Bird even playing alongside Parish or McHale.
-You'll usually see guards or main ball-handlers leading the team in assists... Bird played mostly off-ball.
-You'll usually see very quick players, mostly guards leading the team in steals.

Larry did ALL of that above COMBINED... Throughout history, NOBODY has ever pulled that off.

-Bird scored 27.5 PPG on 52.4% FG... Next best was at 16.6 on 40.4%.
-LB with 4.7 WS, next best with 2.1.
-Bird shot 52.4% from the field while the rest of the team combined didn't even reach 46%.
-Larry with 26.3 in PER, next best at 16.3.

Then in the Finals going up against a team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Scott and Wilkes... Not really expect to win, given how both teams were playing, but the C's won in 7.


Sure, next time I'll just post some quick, ignorant shit, saying basically nothing while acting like a kid... so I can be "objective" in your eyes :rolleyes:
Emotional? Right, very :rolleyes:

[Da_Realist]

Fact #1 - Bird played on more stacked teams than LeBron.

It's harder to dominate and ensure championship level chemistry on a "stacked" team. Bird playing on great teams do not diminish his ability or accomplishments. At all. This idea that a player's greatness is defined solely by the weakness of his teammates goes against the point of team sports. The guy that plays well within the fabric of the team is the best indicator of greatness. The guy that dominates the ball and the stat sheet may not know how to play well with other great players! Or may not play as well as when he's allowed to play in a way that caters to his strengths to the detriment of the strength of his teammates. You'll have a hard time finding a player that meshed as well with other talented players as Larry Bird was able to do. Certainly not Lebron.

Dominating on "stacked" teams is a positive, not a negative. Besides, you couldn't win back then as a one-man army. Teams were too good and had too many weapons.


Fact #2 - Bird choked as much as LeBron did. Let's not try to rewrite history.

It depends on what you mean by "choke". If you mean, "had a bad game or didn't play his best" then sure. Every player has had those games and series. If you mean "play so horrifically that people question his heart, fortitude, desire and conditioning", then no. LB did not choke like Lebron. In fact, no one even questioned Bird's intentions. It was always to win the game. It wasn't to dominate the stat sheet. It wasn't to become the first millionaire player. It wasn't to curb the criticism. It was always to win the game. No hidden agendas. No desire to pad numbers so fans look the other way when assessing blame after a playoff loss.



Fact #3 - DJ was making All-NBA, All-Star, and All-Def teams before coming to the Celtics.

True. Of course, Bird had already won a title before DJ got there...



Fact #4 - LeBron > Bird.

No at all. There is a clear separation between the two. Bird > Lebron.

[RRR3]

This mf'er always running around with my name in posts :facepalm Must even think of me when he's sleeping or something, goddamn.

And why do you post like a child? Think it's funny or something? Got nothing substancial to say so you just resort to that type of bullshit, I see...


Like I've said before, I can just compare Bird's 1981 Finals to LeBron's 2007 Finals...

-Both were about the same age but LeBron was a 4-year pro (all with the same franchise) while Bird was a sophomore.

-Wanna discuss teammates? I'll end it at:
Boston had major internal problems, with attendances at an all-time low, and went 29-53 (2nd worst record) just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they improve by 32W, post the best record and get to the ECF.
^In the following year, Cowens was gone and Parish - who was already 27 and not viewed as all that - was the main acquisition (McHale was a rookie doing little); and they win it all!
Instant, ridiculous type of impact right there... LeBron can't see that.

-Bird's Celtics actually won the series, LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a single game :lol
And people who know their shit realize that the FMVP belonged to Larry... There's no way he "loses it" like at least 5 years later on, same "situation" given.

-James scored 7 more PPG than Larry yes, but on way worse efficiency... And Bird was MUCH better in terms of rebounding (almost at the same rate as prime Moses) and physicality/hustle, has the edge in playmaking/passing, even had plenty of more steals.
Larry WAY clutcher, better leader, raising his teammates level much more.

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Wanna go through some of the games? So we can discuss your beloved Bird's 8-points outputs and more? Sure...

-Bird opens up with one of his most historic games, just everywhere on the court, hustling all out, raw af, clutch... 18/21/9 on 9-17 FG; Celtics won by 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

-LeBron opens up with 14 points on 4-16 from the floor, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 6 TO's http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scust.png Cavs lost by 9.

-Larry only scored 8 on 3-11 FG in game3 yea, but also had 13 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 steals and 2 blocks... While the Celtics won by 23; guess he should've just stayed in to pad them scoring numbers kinda like LeBron does, huh? :rolleyes:

-How about James with those 24 points and 10 assists in game4 :bowdown: On 10-30 shooting though, with 6 TO's while his team lost by 1 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/scusthov.gif
Spurs completing the sweep in Cleveland, in their turf.

-Bird closed out the Rockets in game6 with 27/13/5 on 11-20 FG, 4-5 FT...
Clutch af, scoring 9 of the team's 11 in the decisive late run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

I won't even go on much about Bird's 1981 ECF against the best team in the league (76ers) and the MVP (Dr J)... SHITS on everything Bron did for the 2007 Playoffs, just to say the least...


Now what you wanna do? Compare Bird's 1984 Finals to LeBron's 2011 http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png
Cool...

Most of Larry's teammates playing well below their standards for the Playoffs while Bird leads the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title.
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/wow.png
Can you grasp something like that? ^ Not LeBron nor anyone else have ever did something as ridiculous as that...

Then in the Finals, Bird's Celtics winning vs a Lakers' team with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Rambis, Wilkes and Scott :eek: With LB wrecking shit up.

^One of the best carry jobs ever, better than any of LeBron's or anything he could muster.

Meanwhile James joined two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS% for the 2011 Finals while LeBron was choking them out of a title :facepalm

Heat getting killed by a dude with a game many compare to Bird's... Larry being a bit shorter but more athletic, while an infinitely better passer, with the edge in rebounding and clutch play, being a much better defender, more cold-blooded, tougher and just trash-talking the hell out of anyone while backing it up.
Now picture what Bird would do... Shiieet!!


And Bird's level in 1986 > LeBron's in 2012, even if very close.
Peak Larry playing some level of basketball that EXTREMELY FEW have ever reached, just leading what many call the GOAT team, tearing the league apart, LB just like Neo on the Matrix...

Larry Joe proved he could turn a franchise around, proved he could carry a team to the title, and then when everything was clicking with the talent coming together he also proved that he could lead a tremendous team on some historic shit...
LeBron can't **** with all of the above combined, tbh.


What now? Wanna add something to any of my posts here? Or just continue to post ignorant, kiddie shit while not being able to refute anything? Or do you even just want to continue to mention my name in most of your posts around this board?

Take the L and move on, child...

Wtf 2011 was awful I'm not denying that. But no one ever gives LeBron a break for any of his losses or even his wins when he isn't godlike, so I feel that Bird getting praised for 81 wouldn't happen in today's uber scrutinizing era.

Not sure what LeBrons failures have to do with my posts. You are deflecting.

And yes I do find this amusing. I didn't see Bird; so I can't say who was better peak wise, but LeBron is likely going to have a more impressive career. You keep acting like Bird is infallible man. Come on.

[aj1987]

It's harder to dominate and ensure championship level chemistry on a "stacked" team. Bird playing on great teams do not diminish his ability or accomplishments. At all. This idea that a player's greatness is defined solely by the weakness of his teammates goes against the point of team sports. The guy that plays well within the fabric of the team is the best indicator of greatness. The guy that dominates the ball and the stat sheet may not know how to play well with other great players! Or may not play as well as when he's allowed to play in a way that caters to his strengths to the detriment of the strength of his teammates. You'll have a hard time finding a player that meshed as well with other talented players as Larry Bird was able to do. Certainly not Lebron.

Dominating on "stacked" teams is a positive, not a negative. Besides, you couldn't win back then as a one-man army. Teams were too good and had too many weapons.

Making excuses for a player playing on historically stacked teams. You can't make this shit up. :oldlol:

Harder to win on stacked teams. :roll:

The '12 Heat was stacked as well, BTW. Sure, Wade and Bosh were injured, but they were doing fine in the Finals. Miami won the ring.


It depends on what you mean by "choke". If you mean, "had a bad game or didn't play his best" then sure. Every player has had those games and series. If you mean "play so horrifically that people question his heart, fortitude, desire and conditioning", then no. LB did not choke like Lebron. In fact, no one even questioned Bird's intentions. It was always to win the game. It wasn't to dominate the stat sheet. It wasn't to become the first millionaire player. It wasn't to curb the criticism. It was always to win the game. No hidden agendas. No desire to pad numbers so fans look the other way when assessing blame after a playoff loss.
So now we're running the narrative that LeBron plays for stats? Then why didn't he stay with the shitty ass Cav's, which would've helped him average ~29/8/9?


True. Of course, Bird had already won a title before DJ got there...
True. He did have 2 All-Stars and the future FMVP on his team.


No at all. There is a clear separation between the two. Bird > Lebron.
Yep. There is separation and LeBron > Bird. Better scorer, passer, and defender. Bird takes shooting and rebounding though.


Wtf 2011 was awful I'm not denying that. But no one ever gives LeBron a break for any of his losses or even his wins when he isn't godlike, so I feel that Bird getting praised for 81 wouldn't happen in today's uber scrutinizing era.

Not sure what LeBrons failures have to do with my posts. You are deflecting.

And yes I do find this amusing. I didn't see Bird; so I can't say who was better peak wise, but LeBron is likely going to have a more impressive career. You keep acting like Bird is infallible man. Come on.
That's basically what these idiots do. Can't argue a point, deflect.

[RRR3]

Here's the thing guys:
The reason I and (I assume) some other younger posters give you grief is because you aren't consistent with your standards for Bird and LeBron. It's hard to say who was actually better, but i think most agree they are super close as players at their best. So, I think LeBron will have a better career most likely, y know?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Here's the thing guys:
The reason I and (I assume) some other younger posters give you grief is because you aren't consistent with your standards for Bird and LeBron. It's hard to say who was actually better, but i think most agree they are super close as players at their best. So, I think LeBron will have a better career most likely, y know?

Clowning Bird for his 8 point performances, without a single iota of context, seems a little douchey, tbh

I can respect the fact you obviously WANT to learn. You suggesting that LeBron will have a better career is something I've been posting for a while now as you know - so good point. It's hard to imagine LeBron not winning another title with the way Cleveland is looking ATM.

Of course, having the better career doesn't necessarily mean you were the better basketball player.

[Dro]

I agree they're super close but I've seen them both and I'm taking Bird. Its honestly just by the "eye test". Not counting stats, situations, eras or any of that. When I watch them play, Bird is the more skilled player to me. Lebron is highly skilled but a lot of his success is because of his ridiculous athleticism and he's stronger than everyone. Now thats a credit to him, he's obviously put in the time but then again Bird didn't have all those same advantages that today's athletes have.

But again, disregarding all that, I just think if I want to win, I want Bird. If I want a guy that can be placed on any team in the NBA regardless of the team around him, I want Bird. Bird seems to be able to fit into any system. With Lebron, he has to have the ball the majority of the time. Its a gift and a curse to have Lebron. He will certainly guarantee you a shot at a title in any given year but he can also cause teammates to be relegated to standing in the corner waiting for a pass(likely to be a great pass at that, Lebron is an awesome passer honestly, probably better than bird).

But Bird is the type of guy who I honestly think could've put up 30ppg in any given season, he's just good enough to fit into a great team and still be a great player at the same time. And then the mental edge I think puts him over the top.

[RRR3]

Clowning Bird for his 8 point performances, without a single iota of context, seems a little douchey, tbh

I can respect the fact you obviously WANT to learn. You suggesting that LeBron will have a better career is something I've been posting for a while now as you know - so good point. It's hard to imagine LeBron not winning another title with the way Cleveland is looking ATM.

Of course, having the better career doesn't necessarily mean you were the better basketball player.
Dude I have no idea how much Bird impacted those games; I am just trolling shaqisgoat and others because regardless of context LeBron gets slammed for the same performance. So would Bean. Players today get put under a microscope

[aj1987]

Dude I have no idea how much Bird impacted those games; I am just trolling shaqisgoat and others because regardless of context LeBron gets slammed for the same performance. So would Bean. Players today get put under a microscope
Also love how he just ignored that other post of yours.

[RRR3]

Also love how he just ignored that other post of yours.
Which one?

I am somewhat trolling right now tbqh but there is a reason for it (double standards).

[Hey Yo]

Originally posted by SHAQisGOAT
Turning a franchise around, staying through thick and thin while building a dynasty from the ground up as the center-piece... is "arbitrary stuff"?
Considering there was no Free Agency until the summer 1988, not sure the bolded above applies to anything.

The only way Bird was leaving Boston was via trade, in which we both know that wasn't going to happen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Also love how he just ignored that other post of yours.

What post is that? I agree with RRR3 in principle. LeBron will be regarded as the man with the better career.

[colts19]

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts." You had to see him play to really understand.

To those of you who say Bird played on stacked teams, let me point out something. during the 88-89 season Bird only played in 6 games. So how did his stacked all time great team do without him?

Kevin Mchale 23pts 8 rbs
Parrish 19pts 13 rbs
R. Lewis 19pts 6 rbs
D Johnson 10pts 7 assist
Ainge 16 pts 5 assist

Pretty good numbers, but numbers don't tell the story. Their record 42-40. That's right his stacked team barely finished over .500. The year before with Bird they were 57-25. It was his presence on the court that counts.

[LAZERUSS]

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts." You had to see him play to really understand.

To those of you who say Bird played on stacked teams, let me point out something. during the 88-89 season Bird only played in 6 games. So how did his stacked all time great team do without him?

Kevin Mchale 23pts 8 rbs
Parrish 19pts 13 rbs
R. Lewis 19pts 6 rbs
D Johnson 10pts 7 assist
Ainge 16 pts 5 assist

Pretty good numbers, but numbers don't tell the story. Their record 42-40. That's right his stacked team barely finished over .500. The year before with Bird they were 57-25. It was his presence on the court that counts.

The same applies to Lebron.

EVERY team that he has joined has taken a HUGE jump (two of them hold team records for franchise best W-L records), and EVERY team he left completely disintegrated.

[Wade's Rings]

The same applies to Lebron.

EVERY team that he has joined has taken a HUGE jump (two of them hold team records for franchise best W-L records), and EVERY team he left completely disintegrated.

The 2011 Heat improved by 11 Wins, that's not huge.

[LAZERUSS]

The 2011 Heat improved by 11 Wins, that's not huge.

And went from first round cannon-fodder to a Finals.

[Trollsmasher]

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts." You had to see him play to really understand.

To those of you who say Bird played on stacked teams, let me point out something. during the 88-89 season Bird only played in 6 games. So how did his stacked all time great team do without him?

Kevin Mchale 23pts 8 rbs
Parrish 19pts 13 rbs
R. Lewis 19pts 6 rbs
D Johnson 10pts 7 assist
Ainge 16 pts 5 assist

Pretty good numbers, but numbers don't tell the story. Their record 42-40. That's right his stacked team barely finished over .500. The year before with Bird they were 57-25. It was his presence on the court that counts.
you forgot to add that they lost 4 of those 6 games Bird played in

[Wade's Rings]

And went from first round cannon-fodder to a Finals.

Wade didn't have Bosh the year before.

[colts19]

you forgot to add that they lost 4 of those 6 games Bird played in

Playing with a bad back and feet that would cause him to miss the rest of the year, and that's the best you can do. Really:wtf:

Also the point of my post was that everyone says his team was stacked not only stacked but all time great stacked. So unlike Lebron whose teams were not considered all time stacked, so you would consider it normal for a big drop. Bird's team being all time stacked you would still expect them to be really good.

[LAZERUSS]

Wade didn't have Bosh the year before.

Nor did Lebron in Cleveland, and he still carried that Cavs team to a 61-21 record, and a 4-2 series loss against a Boston team that routed the Heat in the first round.

And what happened to the Cavs after Lebron left? A 19-63 record.

[colts19]

And went from first round cannon-fodder to a Finals.
In a pitiful eastern conference.

[Wade's Rings]

Nor did Lebron in Cleveland, and he still carried that Cavs team to a 61-21 record, and a 4-2 series loss against a Boston team that routed the Heat in the first round.

And what happened to the Cavs after Lebron left? A 19-63 record.

That Cavs team was way better than Wade's :confusedshrug:

LeBron shot 34% with 6 Turnovers the last 3 Games of the series vs Boston including his Quit Game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0), While Wade was tearing Boston up :applause:

[colts19]

Nor did Lebron in Cleveland, and he still carried that Cavs team to a 61-21 record, and a 4-2 series loss against a Boston team that routed the Heat in the first round.

And what happened to the Cavs after Lebron left? A 19-63 record.

In a pitiful eastern conference. And it's not like Lebron is the only one that left that team.

Don't get me wrong LAZ, you know I respect your knowledge of the game. But you do seem to completely overlook some of Lebron's shortcomings. That you ream Bird for.

[LAZERUSS]

In a pitiful eastern conference.

Contrary to popular myth, Bird's Celtics weren't beating great Eastern Conference teams, either. Hell, they were even losing to considerably worse teams. True, they were getting thumped by some of the more powerful EC teams, but they had their share of 41-41 and 43-39 teams. And not only that, for the first few seasons, they didn't even play a first round series.

[Wade's Rings]

In a pitiful eastern conference. And it's not like Lebron is the only one that left that team.

The 2011 East wasn't weak. Bulls, Heat, Celtics were Contenders and some may consider the Magic Contenders.


Don't get me wrong LAZ, you know I respect your knowledge of the game. But you do seem to completely overlook some of Lebron's shortcomings. That you ream Bird for.

He shifts the Goal Post to suit his arguments, he is very ignorant, and uses no context.

[colts19]

Contrary to popular myth, Bird's Celtics weren't beating great Eastern Conference teams, either. Hell, they were even losing to considerably worse teams. True, they were getting thumped by some of the more powerful EC teams, but they had their share of 41-41 and 43-39 teams. And not only that, for the first few seasons, they didn't even play a first round series.

And why was it that they didn't even play a first round series.
Waiting for the answer to that. Hint, I think it had something to do with number of wins. That being a good thing. Please show me the considerably worse teams they were losing to.

LAZ. buddy, your just going crazy now. Back off and breathe.

[LAZERUSS]

In a pitiful eastern conference. And it's not like Lebron is the only one that left that team.

Don't get me wrong LAZ, you know I respect your knowledge of the game. But you do seem to completely overlook some of Lebron's shortcomings. That you ream Bird for.

Lebron played poorly in the '11 Finals. And I still attribute that more to him not knowing his true role on that team. I certainly can't blame him for his '07 Finals, when he basically took one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the franchise's very first Finals.

I hold Bird accountable for several post-season series, albeit, the Bird fans will claim that he was injured in them (and some of them will rip Chamberlain in his "injured" series, despite Wilt putting up 20-20 series in them.)

Look, I am on record as claiming that I would take a peak Bird over a peak Lebron (but not by much.) However, I would take a career Lebron over a career Bird.

[Wade's Rings]

Lebron played poorly in the '11 Finals. And I still attribute that more to him not knowing his true role on that team. I certainly can't blame him for his '07 Finals, when he basically took one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the franchise's very first Finals.

I hold Bird accountable for several post-season series, albeit, the Bird fans will claim that he was injured in them (and some of them will rip Chamberlain in his "injured" series, despite Wilt putting up 20-20 series in them.)

Look, I am on record as claiming that I would take a peak Bird over a peak Lebron (but not by much.) However, I would take a career Lebron over a career Bird.

You're also on record bashing the 60's Era and it's players.

[LAZERUSS]

And why was it that they didn't even play a first round series.
Waiting for the answer to that. Hint, I think it had something to do with number of wins. That being a good thing. Please show me the considerably worse teams they were losing to.

LAZ. buddy, your just going crazy now. Back off and breathe.

Lebron's 60+ win teams had to play a first round. But let's not act like Boston's second round opponents were anything great. Again, they were playing 41-41, 43-39, and 43-39 teams.

And they were swept by the 51-31 Bucks in '83. Not that it would have made any difference, since the Sixers would have pounded them anyway. And then they lost to the 45-37 Knicks in '90.

Again...how many truly powerful teams did Boston BEAT in the EC in the 80's?

[WolfGang]

Who in their right mind would choose Bird over Lebron? These old heads really need to stop this s**t.

[Dro]

Who in their right mind would choose Bird over Lebron? These old heads really need to stop this s**t.
Obviously some people have watched them both. You obviously have not if you dont' even think its an argument. Simple really......

[WolfGang]

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/larry_bird_vs_lebron_james.htm

I've seen the unathletic Bird play.

[Da_Realist]

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/larry_bird_vs_lebron_james.htm

I've seen the unathletic Bird play.

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts."

[Trollsmasher]

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts."
you can say that about every single all time great

[Da_Realist]

you can say that about every single all time great

Some more than others. Bird more than most. That's why the statistical comparisons fall flat here.

[Rose'sACL]

Some more than others. Bird more than most. That's why the statistical comparisons fall flat here.
this. this is why you can have no debate on bird vs lebron. da_realist and shaqisgoat don't have to say anything other than "eye test" and we have to believe it.
i have no idea why we even have debates on 80s players vs current players. we should just ask these "knowledgeable" posters and anything they say is the truth. ask shaqisgoat about bird's defense and he would tell you that bird's help defense was better than lebron because "eye test"

[Wade's Rings]

this. this is why you can have no debate on bird vs lebron. da_realist and shaqisgoat don't have to say anything other than "eye test" and we have to believe it.
i have no idea why we even have debates on 80s players vs current players. we should just ask these "knowledgeable" posters and anything they say is the truth. ask shaqisgoat about bird's defense and he would tell you that bird's help defense was better than lebron because "eye test"

I've seen him using plenty of Defensive Statistics and how the Celtics had a Defensive Turnaround in Bird's Rookie Year.

[Da_Realist]

this. this is why you can have no debate on bird vs lebron. da_realist and shaqisgoat don't have to say anything other than "eye test" and we have to believe it.
i have no idea why we even have debates on 80s players vs current players. we should just ask these "knowledgeable" posters and anything they say is the truth. ask shaqisgoat about bird's defense and he would tell you that bird's help defense was better than lebron because "eye test"

Make sure you add in Red Auerbach as well. I don't think he would have let arbitrary numbers played under different conditions tell him who the better player is either.

[Rose'sACL]

I've seen him using plenty of Defensive Statistics and how the Celtics had a Defensive Turnaround in Bird's Rookie Year.
lol.



Make sure you add in Red Auerbach as well. I don't think he'd let arbitrary numbers played under different conditions tell him who the better player is either.
and? i am agreeing with you. Big O said that lebron is better than MJ. this means that:
Bird>LeBron>MJ
the problem is that plenty of ex-players have said that MJ is the best player of all time so we have a big problem here.

[aj1987]

Some more than others. Bird more than most. That's why the statistical comparisons fall flat here.
Since Bird transcends stats, why does he have only 1 ring more than LeBron, while have the same number of FMVP's and fewer MVP's? Accolades? LeBron takes it. Stats? LeBron BLOWS away Bird. Team success? LeBron led teams have been to 5 straight Finals and 6 overall. What else do you need?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

My favorite part of ShaqisGoat's post is the bit where he mentions Bird doing everything he needed to prove...

- turned a spiraling franchise/sport around with his brilliant play
- led a team to a title with said spiraling franchise
- played/beat arguably the greatest competition of all-time
- led a team who is now considered arguably the greatest team all-time
- put up great stats and other-worldly efficiency despite playing off the ball

Larry did it all, so I'm not surprised people STILL think dude is the better player between the two.

[Rose'sACL]

My favorite part of ShaqisGoat's post is the bit where he mentions Bird doing everything he needed to prove...

- turned a spiraling franchise/sport around with his brilliant play
- led a team to a title with said spiraling franchise
- played/beat arguably the greatest competition of all-time
- led a team who is now considered arguably the greatest team all-time
- put up great stats and other-worldly efficiency despite playing off the ball

Larry did it all, so I'm not surprised people STILL think dude is the better player between the two.
this tbh.
bird played with mo williams and beat 80s lakers. there is no competition between bird and lebron.
you kids just need to memorize this:
bird>lebron

[Da_Realist]

Since Bird transcends stats, why does he have only 1 ring more than LeBron, while have the same number of FMVP's and fewer MVP's? Accolades? LeBron takes it. Stats? LeBron BLOWS away Bird. Team success? LeBron led teams have been to 5 straight Finals and 6 overall. What else do you need?

I know this is hard for you since you can't find those answers in the box scores. These have actually already been answered but you can't get past the stats to understand any counterpoints.

The people saying Bird are more or less giving good logical reasons why we think so, even if you disagree with them.

The people saying Lebron are more or less regurgitating what we can find on basketball-reference.

Older fans did not grow up with up-to-date box scores at our fingertips so we judged more or less based on what we saw. The numbers usually supported but even if they didn't, what we saw was the starting point.

Today's fans are different. You grew up with box scores and advanced analytics at your fingertips and that is your starting point. What you see can contradict but can't supercede the numbers.

Most of you guys are pretty much useless. Anybody can go to basketball-reference and spout off a bunch of numbers.

[Rose'sACL]

I know this is hard for you since you can't find those answers in the box scores. These have actually already been answered but you can't get past the stats to understand any counterpoints.

The people saying Bird are more or less giving good logical reasons why we think so, even if you disagree with them.

The people saying Lebron are more or less regurgitating what we can find on basketball-reference.

Older fans did not grow up with up-to-date box scores at our fingertips so we judged more or less based on what we saw. The numbers usually supported but even if they didn't, what we saw was the starting point.

Today's fans are different. You grew up with box scores and advanced analytics at your fingertips and that is your starting point. What you see can contradict but can't supercede the numbers.

Most of you guys are pretty much useless. Anybody can go to basketball-reference and spout off a bunch of numbers.
this tbh.
your opinions are what matter. posting stats to backup your opinion is just being biased.

[SHAQisGOAT]

this. this is why you can have no debate on bird vs lebron. da_realist and shaqisgoat don't have to say anything other than "eye test" and we have to believe it.
i have no idea why we even have debates on 80s players vs current players. we should just ask these "knowledgeable" posters and anything they say is the truth. ask shaqisgoat about bird's defense and he would tell you that bird's help defense was better than lebron because "eye test"


Right :rolleyes:

I ask you this question every now and then but it still baffles me... Again, can you even read?
One more time...

-Celtics were a bottom3 defense in the league just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they jump to being the 4th best ranked defense.
^Bird being 1st in the league in DWS, 6th in DRtg... Not one of his teammates being top10 at either.
No McHale, no DJ, or no Parish yet... for that matter.

-Bird led the league in DWS 4x, was top5 7x. He was once 2nd in DRtg, top10 6x.
Other forwards who did similar stuff throughout NBA history? You got KG, Pippen, Timmy, Rodman, Bobby Jones and VERY FEW others if any at all...

-Celtics were much better defensively when Bird was on the court, mostly due to his team defense and defensive rebounding. While he was (mostly) healthy, his teams were always top defensive teams.
Celtics drop-off in defense coincide with Bird's declining health.
And Bird was almost always topping all of his teammates in terms of DWS and DRtg.

-LeBron has played 911 regular-seasons games to Bird's 897 and STILL falls short of Larry's DWS, 54.4 to 59.0.
Bird with better DRtg too.
And no man really trumps the other in terms of steals/blocks.

-Throughout Bird's career his teams were top5 in terms of defense for 5 times, once the #1 ranked defense... LeBron's teams were top5 for 4 times, never once better than 3rd.
And, one more time just so you don't miss it, Bird was almost always topping all of his teammates in terms of DWS and DRtg.

-From 1979 to 1986 Larry's the league leader in combined DWS... No other forward in league history can make that claim I believe, over a 5/6-year period.
And he should've made more all-defensive teams; in this day and age with the whole star-craze, and with people drooling over advanced stats and such... He definitely would've made more all-defensive teams.

Now take all of that^ TOGETHER... Just coincidences I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

But I'm the one always using just the old "eye test" :rolleyes: GTFOH
Stop spilling out bullshit, son.

If anything YOU'RE the one who is basing it all on the "eye-test", while that "eye-test" is as vague as it gets because it's CLEAR you haven't seen much from Bird, at all.

You got my arguments there, very solid ones, huh? Now YOU explain why LeBron's the better team defender, please, and not just mentioning the old "eye-test".
Plus, don't go off on all-defensive teams because I've already said that LeBron's a better overall defender, while nowadays you get there a lot by name, and if you wanna go that route then just admit that Kobe's the GOAT defender or something.

But if you do want that eye-test, here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

Larry had higher defensive IQ, was better on rotations, better at winning charges and at putting his body on the line to protect the paint, he had better sense of when to double-team, had big-time defensive instincts, not as athletic as LeBron but nevertheless great at playing the passing lanes, he knew how to funnel his man into crowded areas, had two of the quickest hands...
Thus, a better team defender than James.


Bird was a better team defender and a better post m2m defender than LeBron... Pretty close, plus Bron's a better overall defensive player (mostly due to athleticism though).

Go on now, I'm waiting for that very knowledgeable answer :rolleyes:

[Da_Realist]

and? i am agreeing with you. Big O said that lebron is better than MJ. this means that:
Bird>LeBron>MJ
the problem is that plenty of ex-players have said that MJ is the best player of all time so we have a big problem here.

Not a problem at all. People disagree. That's not the problem. The problem is you thinking you can "read" Bird's game by "reading" his stat lines without taking anything else into consideration. The game doesn't work like that. And it's most ill-fitting with Bird than most other players you can think of. Probably the least stat-obsessed superstar in history.

[aj1987]

I know this is hard for you since you can't find those answers in the box scores. These have actually already been answered but you can't get past the stats to understand any counterpoints.

The people saying Bird are more or less giving good logical reasons why we think so, even if you disagree with them.

The people saying Lebron are more or less regurgitating what we can find on basketball-reference.

Older fans did not grow up with up-to-date box scores at our fingertips so we judged more or less based on what we saw. The numbers usually supported but even if they didn't, what we saw was the starting point.

Today's fans are different. You grew up with box scores and advanced analytics at your fingertips and that is your starting point. What you see can contradict but can't supercede the numbers.

Most of you guys are pretty much useless. Anybody can go to basketball-reference and spout off a bunch of numbers.
You idiots do realize that there are tons of games on the internet, right? :facepalm

Stop living in the '80's. It's 2015. Also, I'm assuming that you can't read or that you have an extremely short memory span. I just pointed out that LeBron has the accolades, success, did as much load lifting (if not more) as Bird, etc.. You idiots just ignore all that and fixate upon me bringing up stats.

Unless you can backup your statements with FACTS, your OPINIONS don't mean shit.


this tbh.
your opinions are what matter. posting stats to backup your opinion is just being biased.
Exactly. To people like them, stats don't matter unless it fits their agenda. It's not just facts, BTW. They tend to cherry pick whatever suits them. Comparing Bird's best run to LeBron's worst and the sort.

I wish there was social media back them. Bird would get crucified worse than LeBron and Kobe. Dude would probably be ranked below Hakeem ~10th spot.


Not a problem at all. People disagree. That's not the problem. The problem is you thinking you can "read" Bird's game by "reading" his stat lines without taking anything else into consideration. The game doesn't work like that. And it's most ill-fitting with Bird than most other players you can think of. Probably the least stat-obsessed superstar in history.
So he wasn't "obsessed" with stats (I guess, Shaq, MJ, KAJ, Kobe, LeBron, etc. are all obsessed with stats) and doesn't have the accolades with teams, which were historically stacked.

tl;dr LeBron > Bird.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've seen him using plenty of Defensive Statistics and how the Celtics had a Defensive Turnaround in Bird's Rookie Year.

At last, someone who knows how to read :applause: :applause:



It's harder to dominate and ensure championship level chemistry on a "stacked" team. Bird playing on great teams do not diminish his ability or accomplishments. At all. This idea that a player's greatness is defined solely by the weakness of his teammates goes against the point of team sports. The guy that plays well within the fabric of the team is the best indicator of greatness. The guy that dominates the ball and the stat sheet may not know how to play well with other great players! Or may not play as well as when he's allowed to play in a way that caters to his strengths to the detriment of the strength of his teammates. You'll have a hard time finding a player that meshed as well with other talented players as Larry Bird was able to do. Certainly not Lebron.

Dominating on "stacked" teams is a positive, not a negative. Besides, you couldn't win back then as a one-man army. Teams were too good and had too many weapons.



It depends on what you mean by "choke". If you mean, "had a bad game or didn't play his best" then sure. Every player has had those games and series. If you mean "play so horrifically that people question his heart, fortitude, desire and conditioning", then no. LB did not choke like Lebron. In fact, no one even questioned Bird's intentions. It was always to win the game. It wasn't to dominate the stat sheet. It wasn't to become the first millionaire player. It wasn't to curb the criticism. It was always to win the game. No hidden agendas. No desire to pad numbers so fans look the other way when assessing blame after a playoff loss.




True. Of course, Bird had already won a title before DJ got there...




No at all. There is a clear separation between the two. Bird > Lebron.

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts." You had to see him play to really understand.

To those of you who say Bird played on stacked teams, let me point out something. during the 88-89 season Bird only played in 6 games. So how did his stacked all time great team do without him?

Kevin Mchale 23pts 8 rbs
Parrish 19pts 13 rbs
R. Lewis 19pts 6 rbs
D Johnson 10pts 7 assist
Ainge 16 pts 5 assist

Pretty good numbers, but numbers don't tell the story. Their record 42-40. That's right his stacked team barely finished over .500. The year before with Bird they were 57-25. It was his presence on the court that counts.

I agree they're super close but I've seen them both and I'm taking Bird. Its honestly just by the "eye test". Not counting stats, situations, eras or any of that. When I watch them play, Bird is the more skilled player to me. Lebron is highly skilled but a lot of his success is because of his ridiculous athleticism and he's stronger than everyone. Now thats a credit to him, he's obviously put in the time but then again Bird didn't have all those same advantages that today's athletes have.

But again, disregarding all that, I just think if I want to win, I want Bird. If I want a guy that can be placed on any team in the NBA regardless of the team around him, I want Bird. Bird seems to be able to fit into any system. With Lebron, he has to have the ball the majority of the time. Its a gift and a curse to have Lebron. He will certainly guarantee you a shot at a title in any given year but he can also cause teammates to be relegated to standing in the corner waiting for a pass(likely to be a great pass at that, Lebron is an awesome passer honestly, probably better than bird).

But Bird is the type of guy who I honestly think could've put up 30ppg in any given season, he's just good enough to fit into a great team and still be a great player at the same time. And then the mental edge I think puts him over the top.

My favorite part of ShaqisGoat's post is the bit where he mentions Bird doing everything he needed to prove...

- turned a spiraling franchise/sport around with his brilliant play
- led a team to a title with said spiraling franchise
- played/beat arguably the greatest competition of all-time
- led a team who is now considered arguably the greatest team all-time
- put up great stats and other-worldly efficiency despite playing off the ball

Larry did it all, so I'm not surprised people STILL think dude is the better player between the two.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[colts19]

I know this is hard for you since you can't find those answers in the box scores. These have actually already been answered but you can't get past the stats to understand any counterpoints.

The people saying Bird are more or less giving good logical reasons why we think so, even if you disagree with them.

The people saying Lebron are more or less regurgitating what we can find on basketball-reference.

Older fans did not grow up with up-to-date box scores at our fingertips so we judged more or less based on what we saw. The numbers usually supported but even if they didn't, what we saw was the starting point.

Today's fans are different. You grew up with box scores and advanced analytic s at your fingertips and that is your starting point. What you see can contradict but can't supersede the numbers.

Most of you guys are pretty much useless. Anybody can go to basketball-reference and spout off a bunch of numbers.

Another great post. I think Lebron is a great player, I just think Bird was more skilled and played the game the way it should be played. Team basketball is all about Ball and Player movement and skills. Bird understood that and he had mad skills to go with it. Bird didn't have to dominate the ball to be effective and he knew how to keep his teammates involved.

I'm still amazed that people think Lebron should have won FMVP when he shot 28% from outside 5 feet. He shot a lot of shots from outside 5 feet and missed them. This makes 2 years in a row that the guy guarding Lebron won FMVP. Last years his team lost by a record margin.

Lebron kind of reminds me of Wilt, Wilt was the greatest basketball player ever. It just took him time to learn not to rely on his physical skills and trust his teammates. Jordan was the same way early in his career.

So you guys throw out all the stats you want. I am secure in the knowledge I have about basketball. I have watched it and played it all my life. I take Bird everytime. There is nothing shameful to being the second best small forward ever.

[aj1987]

The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," says Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court, that counts." You had to see him play to really understand.

To those of you who say Bird played on stacked teams, let me point out something. during the 88-89 season Bird only played in 6 games. So how did his stacked all time great team do without him?

Kevin Mchale 23pts 8 rbs
Parrish 19pts 13 rbs
R. Lewis 19pts 6 rbs
D Johnson 10pts 7 assist
Ainge 16 pts 5 assist

Pretty good numbers, but numbers don't tell the story. Their record 42-40. That's right his stacked team barely finished over .500. The year before with Bird they were 57-25. It was his presence on the court that counts.

Miami with LeBron in '14 - 54 wins
Miami w/o LeBron in '15 - 37 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '10 - 61 wins
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '11 - 19 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '15 - 3-10
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '15 - 50-19

Yeah, LeBron has no impact on teams though. :roll eyes:



I'm still amazed that people think Lebron should have won FMVP when he shot 28% from outside 5 feet. He shot a lot of shots from outside 5 feet and missed them. This makes 2 years in a row that the guy guarding Lebron won FMVP. Last years his team lost by a record margin.

Lebron kind of reminds me of Wilt, Wilt was the greatest basketball player ever. It just took him time to learn not to rely on his physical skills and trust his teammates. Jordan was the same way early in his career.

You talking about basketball knowledge and post this drivel? :facepalm

Miami lost in '14 because of it's defense. Not offense. You'd know that if you actually saw any of the games. Wade and Bosh were terrible in the Finals. I love Wade, but dude was worse than '13 Harden on defense. Chris bosh wasn't doing shit either. Didn't help at all that Ray Allen and Birdman (37 and 39 years) were backing up Wade and Bosh. Lewis was starting for the Heat. That should actually tell you something about how bad the team was. Miami's starting PG was beyond terrible and his backup was even worse. Miami didn't even have a fixed lineup in the Finals. They team was a dysfunctional mess.

Sure, LeBron shot like shit in '15, but he put up 36/13/9. Dude was basically doing EVERYTHING on the team. Bird wouldn't have won a single game on that team. It was LeBron/JR/Shump/Delly/Moz/TT, if you didn't know. JR, Shump, and Delly were shooting under 40% TS for the series. None of them were hitting ANYTHING. Who was he going to rely on? :facepalm

[rmt]

this. this is why you can have no debate on bird vs lebron. da_realist and shaqisgoat don't have to say anything other than "eye test" and we have to believe it.
i have no idea why we even have debates on 80s players vs current players. we should just ask these "knowledgeable" posters and anything they say is the truth. ask shaqisgoat about bird's defense and he would tell you that bird's help defense was better than lebron because "eye test"

Just the same way that I wouldn't be talking s**t about Wilt or Russell (because I didn't follow them in their hey day) is the same reason some one who didn't watch Bird and Magic shouldn't talk s**t about them. You can look at their stats all you want - just as I do with Wilt - but I don't make comments about people I didn't watch closely.

I've lived through the Bird/Magic time and just like tennis of the late 70s/80s, it was the heyday of basketball/tennis. Hard for people to understand now - even with Federer/Nadal/Djokovic around.

I've said it before - Lebron knows he's the best basketball player but he doesn't play like he is. I don't know why - maybe he's lacking in confidence, maybe he has too much pressure on him - idk - but it's a striking difference between him and players of old - Bird, Magic and especially MJ.

Lebron fans have no room to stand on saying that Bird's team was stacked. Lebron goes team-hopping, chasing championships and that does him no favors in comparison to those who stuck it out through thick and thin. Bird, Magic and MJ would never even think of team-hopping - they wanted to tear the heads off their opponents - not join them.

So, if I had to pick one to win a game, I'd pick Bird. But eventually Lebron's sheer numbers will overwhelm Bird's and he'll end up higher on a top 10 list. Much the same as Kobe is top 10 - not so much because he's really one of the 10 best, but because the career resume demands it.

[Rose'sACL]

Just the same way that I wouldn't be talking s**t about Wilt or Russell (because I didn't follow them in their hey day) is the same reason some one who didn't watch Bird and Magic shouldn't talk s**t about them. You can look at their stats all you want - just as I do with Wilt - but I don't make comments about people I didn't watch closely.

I've lived through the Bird/Magic time and just like tennis of the late 70s/80s, it was the heyday of basketball/tennis. Hard for people to understand now - even with Federer/Nadal/Djokovic around.

I've said it before - Lebron knows he's the best basketball player but he doesn't play like he is. I don't know why - maybe he's lacking in confidence, maybe he has too much pressure on him - idk - but it's a striking difference between him and players of old - Bird, Magic and especially MJ.

Lebron fans have no room to stand on saying that Bird's team was stacked. Lebron goes team-hopping, chasing championships and that does him no favors in comparison to those who stuck it out through thick and thin. Bird, Magic and MJ would never even think of team-hopping - they wanted to tear the heads off their opponents - not join them.

So, if I had to pick one to win a game, I'd pick Bird. But eventually Lebron's sheer numbers will overwhelm Bird's and he'll end up higher on a top 10 list. Much the same as Kobe is top 10 - not so much because he's really one of the 10 best, but because the career resume demands it.
yes, i remember how bird had the option to leave after Celtics had not won in his first 7 years in the league because of lack of talent.
i also remember how magic kept trying to win on those bad Lakers team till he finally got a good team in his 10 season in the nba and won 5 in a row.

kobe also got dealt the bad hand because he has had to play for the Lakers who didn't win anything till 2009 plus the fact that lakers play in one of the smallest markets in the country.

then we have to talk about Duncan who has had to play for the franchise which never won more than 30 games before him. Spurs front office is a joke and coach pop is only good because of Duncan.

[Indian guy]

You idiots do realize that there are tons of games on the internet, right? :facepalm

Stop living in the '80's. It's 2015. Also, I'm assuming that you can't read or that you have an extremely short memory span. I just pointed out that LeBron has the accolades, success, did as much load lifting (if not more) as Bird, etc.. You idiots just ignore all that and fixate upon me bringing up stats.

Unless you can backup your statements with FACTS, your OPINIONS don't mean shit.


Exactly. To people like them, stats don't matter unless it fits their agenda. It's not just facts, BTW. They tend to cherry pick whatever suits them. Comparing Bird's best run to LeBron's worst and the sort.

I wish there was social media back them. Bird would get crucified worse than LeBron and Kobe. Dude would probably be ranked below Hakeem ~10th spot.


So he wasn't "obsessed" with stats (I guess, Shaq, MJ, KAJ, Kobe, LeBron, etc. are all obsessed with stats) and doesn't have the accolades with teams, which were historically stacked.

tl;dr LeBron > Bird.

Yep. Can't believe this thread is still going on. When someone's entire argument for a player's superiority boils down to something as subjective as "eye test", then you'd think that player must've contributed in ways that led to significantly more team success. Except that's not the case at all with Bird. So why in GOD's name should we buy this "eye test" garbage? I'll stick to actual facts, thank you. And at the end of the day, by all possible metrics available, LeBron was the significantly more productive and impactful player on the basketball court. He also has more individual accolades(MVPs) and roughly the same amount of team success. Thus, he's better. Had Bird won 5 or 6 championships, then maybe we'd actually have a reason to give some credence to the whole "eye test" theory. Except he didn't, so ultimately, "eye test" means jack sh!t here. Give me facts over nostalgia any day.

[eliteballer]

Yep. Can't believe this thread is still going on. When someone's entire argument for a player's superiority boils down to something as subjective as "eye test", then you'd think that player must've contributed in ways that led to significantly more team success. Except that's not the case at all with Bird. So why in GOD's name should we buy this "eye test" garbage? I'll stick to actual facts, thank you. And at the end of the day, by all possible metrics available, LeBron was the significantly more productive and impactful player on the basketball court. He also has more individual accolades(MVPs) and roughly the same amount of team success. Thus, he's better. Had Bird won 5 or 6 championships, then maybe we'd actually have a reason to give some credence to the whole "eye test" theory. Except he didn't, so ultimately, "eye test" means jack sh!t here. Give me facts over nostalgia any day.

MVP's? Those are based on a media vote. It's just a bunch of people's opinions. They have as much place in a discussion about actual basketball impact and results as a vote on a message board does.

Bird's a better shooter, he's a better rebounder, better post player, he's at least as good a passer.

If Bird was on those Miami Super Teams in a historically weak conference he'd be racking up titles and MVP's just as easy. Hell, probably easier.

If he was on those 2011 Mavs instead of Dirk they would swept Miami.

[Rose'sACL]

MVP's? Those are based on a media vote. It's just a bunch of people's opinions. They have as much place in a discussion about actual basketball impact and results as a vote on a message board does.

Bird's a better shooter, he's a better rebounder, better post player, he's at least as good a passer.

If Bird was on those Miami Super Teams in a historically weak conference he'd be racking up titles and MVP's just as easy. Hell, probably easier.

If he was on those 2011 Mavs instead of Dirk they would swept Miami.
this. lebron and bird are very close on offense overall and lebron has been easily the better defender than bird which means that
bird>lebron
see. i agree with you even though the logic says otherwise.

[eliteballer]

Bird actually has some all defensive team selections(based on coaches) for his team defense.

...........Bron's D sure kept Leonard and Igoudala from those Finals MVP's!

[Rose'sACL]

Bird actually has some all defensive team selections(based on coaches) for his team defense.

...........Bron's D sure kept Leonard and Igoudala from those Finals MVP's!
this. we all know how iggy and kawhi kept driving to the rim whenever they wanted when lebron was guarding them. kawhi didn't hit contested jumpers to score his points, he just kept going to the rim, no jumpers. iggy's 30ppg average in finals is a great example of how overrated lebron's defense was.

[LAZERUSS]

MVP's? Those are based on a media vote. It's just a bunch of people's opinions. They have as much place in a discussion about actual basketball impact and results as a vote on a message board does.

Bird's a better shooter, he's a better rebounder, better post player, he's at least as good a passer.

If Bird was on those Miami Super Teams in a historically weak conference he'd be racking up titles and MVP's just as easy. Hell, probably easier.

If he was on those 2011 Mavs instead of Dirk they would swept Miami.

Two can play that game. Move a 2012 Lebron into the '83 Celtics starting lineup, and for sure they rout the much worse Bucks, who in actuality, swept Bird's Celtics. And put a '12 Lebron on the '88 Celtics, and he is going to do much better than 19.8 ppg on a .351 FG% against the Bad Boys in the playoffs.

A peak Lebron was a MONSTER, at EVERY aspect of the game.

Was he better than a peak Bird? Probably not...but then again, Bird, at his peak, was actually only about a three year window (from '84 thru '86...with a significant post-season drop in both '87 and '88.)

Before '84, Bird's post-season play, and post-season team success, were nothing spectacular. And, of course, after '86, a dramatic decline.

[SHAQisGOAT]

this. lebron and bird are very close on offense overall and lebron has been easily the better defender than bird which means that
bird>lebron
see. i agree with you even though the logic says otherwise.

This dude cries for substantial stuff yet only comes up with this bullshit-ass, short, weak and ignorant posts basically adding nothing to the dicussion at stake... While, on the other hand, people are hitting him with some great arguments, that he doesn't seem to grasp or even read.
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png
GTFOH

Mf'er actually complaining about something he does all the time :biggums:


Hey, still waiting for your reply as to why LeBron's a better team defender than Bird... Your reply to this:


Right :rolleyes:

I ask you this question every now and then but it still baffles me... Again, can you even read?
One more time...

-Celtics were a bottom3 defense in the league just before Bird came around... Then with Larry, new coach and the same core roster they jump to being the 4th best ranked defense.
^Bird being 1st in the league in DWS, 6th in DRtg... Not one of his teammates being top10 at either.
No McHale, no DJ, or no Parish yet... for that matter.

-Bird led the league in DWS 4x, was top5 7x. He was once 2nd in DRtg, top10 6x.
Other forwards who did similar stuff throughout NBA history? You got KG, Pippen, Timmy, Rodman, Bobby Jones and VERY FEW others if any at all...

-Celtics were much better defensively when Bird was on the court, mostly due to his team defense and defensive rebounding. While he was (mostly) healthy, his teams were always top defensive teams.
Celtics drop-off in defense coincide with Bird's declining health.
And Bird was almost always topping all of his teammates in terms of DWS and DRtg.

-LeBron has played 911 regular-seasons games to Bird's 897 and STILL falls short of Larry's DWS, 54.4 to 59.0.
Bird with better DRtg too.
And no man really trumps the other in terms of steals/blocks.

-Throughout Bird's career his teams were top5 in terms of defense for 5 times, once the #1 ranked defense... LeBron's teams were top5 for 4 times, never once better than 3rd.
And, one more time just so you don't miss it, Bird was almost always topping all of his teammates in terms of DWS and DRtg.

-From 1979 to 1986 Larry's the league leader in combined DWS... No other forward in league history can make that claim I believe, over a 5/6-year period.
And he should've made more all-defensive teams; in this day and age with the whole star-craze, and with people drooling over advanced stats and such... He definitely would've made more all-defensive teams.

Now take all of that^ TOGETHER... Just coincidences I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

But I'm the one always using just the old "eye test" :rolleyes: GTFOH
Stop spilling out bullshit, son.

If anything YOU'RE the one who is basing it all on the "eye-test", while that "eye-test" is as vague as it gets because it's CLEAR you haven't seen much from Bird, at all.

You got my arguments there, very solid ones, huh? Now YOU explain why LeBron's the better team defender, please, and not just mentioning the old "eye-test".
Plus, don't go off on all-defensive teams because I've already said that LeBron's a better overall defender, while nowadays you get there a lot by name, and if you wanna go that route then just admit that Kobe's the GOAT defender or something.

But if you do want that eye-test, here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

Larry had higher defensive IQ, was better on rotations, better at winning charges and at putting his body on the line to protect the paint, he had better sense of when to double-team, had big-time defensive instincts, not as athletic as LeBron but nevertheless great at playing the passing lanes, he knew how to funnel his man into crowded areas, had two of the quickest hands...
Thus, a better team defender than James.


Bird was a better team defender and a better post m2m defender than LeBron... Pretty close, plus Bron's a better overall defensive player (mostly due to athleticism though).

Go on now, I'm waiting for that very knowledgeable answer :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

I've been posting stuff like that^ since forever, yet you had the never to come up here saying that I was basing everyting only on the "eye-test" and whatnot; while you're the one posting jack-shit all the time, kiddie stuff...

[Rose'sACL]

This dude cries for substantial stuff yet only comes up with this bullshit-ass, short, weak and ignorant posts basically adding nothing to the dicussion at stake... While, on the other hand, people are hitting him with some great arguments, that he doesn't seem to grasp or even read.
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png
GTFOH

Mf'er actually complaining about something he does all the time :biggums:


Hey, still waiting for your reply as to why LeBron's a better team defender than Bird... Your reply to this:



:rolleyes:

I've been posting stuff like that^ since forever, yet you had the never to come up here saying that I was basing everyting only on the "eye-test" and whatnot; while you're the one posting jack-shit all the time, kiddie stuff...
i am agreeing with you.
when you wrote that bird was the better help defender than lebron, it showed me that you truly are "knowledgeable" and it is better to just agree with you.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Two can play that game. Move a 2013 Lebron into the '83 Celtics starting lineup, and for sure they rout the much worse Bucks, who in actuality, swept Bird's Celtics. And put a '13 Lebron on the '88 Celtics, and he is going to do much better than 19.8 ppg on a .351 FG% against the Bad Boys in the playoffs.

A peak Lebron was a MONSTER, at EVERY aspect of the game.

Was he better than a peak Bird? Probably not...but then again, Bird, at his peak, was actually only about a three year window (from '84 thru '86...with a significant post-season drop in both '87 and '88.)

Before '84, Bird's post-season play, and post-season team success, were nothing spectacular. And, of course, after '86, a dramatic decline.

I can keep on with that "game"...

-Larry was severely injured for the '83 Playoffs, didn't even play one game vs the Bucks so he technically wasn't even swept... That makes you pretty much a liar.
You only mention - or know about - injuries for Wilt though.

-Given their level at the time and before... You can say that Bird wasn't at his very best until 1984 (peak later on) while LeBron was already showing his best around 2011 (at least before the Finals :lol).
Who really "choked"?

-LeBron joined two already established stars in 2011, one being a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS% in the Finals, with Bosh also doing his thing.
INJURED Bird was even being the Celtics best player for that series vs the Bucks you keep mentioning :oldlol:
Which one^ seems like a CHOKE to you?
1983 Celtics wouldn't even have Ray Allen backing up 2013 LeBron...

-Put LeBron through Bird's "conditions" late in the 1988 season (just before surgeries on both heels then back) and he won't even suit up... Much less being it vs the Bad Boys, knowing that he would be getting clobbered by those dudes, guarded by Rodman...


Go post some bullshit-ass essays about Wilt though... Go act like you've seen or know anything when the only thing you can do is go off on numbers :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

I can keep on with that "game"...

-Larry was severely injured for the '83 Playoffs, didn't even play one game vs the Bucks so he technically wasn't even swept... That makes you pretty much a liar.
You only mention - or know about - injuries for Wilt though.

-Given their level at the time and before... You can say that Bird wasn't at his very best until 1984 (peak later on) while LeBron was already showing his best around 2011 (at least before the Finals :lol).

-LeBron joined two already established stars in 2011, one being a top3/5 player who averaged 27/7/5 on .614 TS%, with Bosh also doing his thing.
Injured Bird was even being the Celtics best player for that series vs the Bucks you keep mentioning :oldlol:

-Put LeBron through Bird's "conditions" late in the 1988 season (just before surgeries on both heels then back) and he won't even suit up... Much less being it vs the Bad Boys, knowing that he would be getting clobbered by those dudes, guarded by Rodman...


Go post some bullshit-ass essays about Wilt though... Go act like you've seen or know anything when the only thing you can do is go off on numbers :facepalm

Of course, you had to throw Wilt into this discussion. Ok, I can play that game. The major difference between an injured Wilt, and an injured Bird? Chamberlain played exceptionally well, and Bird did not (and in fact, missed games.)

And Bird played THREE games in that '83 Bucks series, and was simply AWFUL in them. BTW, I believe he had the FLU in the game he missed. In any case... 18 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 6.0 apg, and on a .441 FG% (and a .667 FT%.)

Furthermore, Wilt had major knee surgery early in his '69-70 season (after nine games), and came back at way less than 100%, and hung a 22.1 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.5 apg, .549 FG% average in his 18 playoff games (and a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) How did Larry do in his '89 post-season after his back injury side-lined him after six games in his regular season?

As for Bird in his horrendous '88 series against the Pistons...McHale hung a 27-7-3 .563 FG% in that same series. We simply don't know what an injured Lebron would have contributed to that Celtic team, since he has been relatively injury-free his entire career.

[Rose'sACL]

Major difference between an injured Wilt, and an injured Bird. Chamberlain played exceptionally well, Bird did not.

Furthermore, Wilt had major knee surgery early in his '69-70 season (after nine games), and came back at way less than 100%, and hung a 22.1 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.5 apg, .549 FG% average in his 18 playoff games (and a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) How did Larry do in his '89 post-season after his back injury side-lined him after six games in his regular season?

As for Bird in his horrendous '88 series against the Pistons...McHale hung a 27-7-3 .563 FG% in that same series. We simply don't know what an injured Lebron would have contributed to that Celtic team, since he has been relatively injury-free his entire career.
lebron would have not played at all. he would have said **** basketball, rodman is guarding me and pistons have good defense. i'll not play because shaqisgoat thinks so.

[bizil]

WOW this is a long ass thread! LMAO! But when looking at positions, it seems the GOAT SF crown could be the most heavily debated along with the GOAT C crown. For centers, I think Cap, Wilt, and Russ all get many votes as the GOAT C. But since Lebron is currently strong in the prime of his career, the Bird vs. Bron debate is the most interesting to me.

If Bron stays healthy, its inevitable that he passes Bird FOR SURE for the GOAT SF crown. Hell, Bron ARGUABLY has the crown now as we speak. If Bron stays healthy, the numbers he could put up could be among the most impressive career numbers in SPORTS HISTORY. Im talking shit like 30,000 points, 9 to 10,000 dimes, and 8,000-9,000 rebounds.

But I think Bird has the most impressive NBA career average statline ever with 24 points, 10 boards and 6 dimes a game. Bird could EASILY make the argument he's the best scoring, passing, and rebounding SF of all time. And peak wise, Bird will ALWAYS has a case on Bron.

[LAZERUSS]

lebron would have not played at all. he would have said **** basketball, rodman is guarding me and pistons have good defense. i'll not play because shaqisgoat thinks so.

Of course, after all, Bird has many more post-season runs of 27.6 ppg than Lebron. Oh wait, Lebron holds 6-0 edge in post-seasons of 27.6 ppg or more, including FOUR of 30+.

And all Lebron did against the 67-15 Warriors, the #1 defense in the league BTW, was to average a 36-13-12 Finals, and single-handedly win two games against them (and nearly two more.)

Look, Bird is a Top-10 player,...but so is Lebron.

Just like that idiotic 3ball...the Bird fans are trying to disparage a Lebron who has been the best player on the planet in the last 4-5 years.

[miles berg]

Anyone not autistic or on meth knows Larry Bird was, and forever will be, better than LeBron.

[LAZERUSS]

WOW this is a long ass thread! LMAO! But when looking at positions, it seems the GOAT SF crown could be the most heavily debated along with the GOAT C crown. For centers, I think Cap, Wilt, and Russ all get many votes as the GOAT C. But since Lebron is currently strong in the prime of his career, the Bird vs. Bron debate is the most interesting to me.

If Bron stays healthy, its inevitable that he passes Bird FOR SURE for the GOAT SF crown. Hell, Bron ARGUABLY has the crown now as we speak. If Bron stays healthy, the numbers he could put up could be among the most impressive career numbers in SPORTS HISTORY. Im talking shit like 30,000 points, 9 to 10,000 dimes, and 8,000-9,000 rebounds.

But I think Bird has the most impressive NBA career average statline ever with 24 points, 10 boards and 6 dimes a game. Bird could EASILY make the argument he's the best scoring, passing, and rebounding SF of all time. And peak wise, Bird will ALWAYS has a case on Bron.

If you include Dr. J's peak seasons in the ABA, he is also in the discussion for GOAT SF. Hell, in his rookie season, he averaged a staggering 33.3 ppg, 20.4 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on .519 FG% (and a .569 TS%) in his 11 playoff games. And he would hang several more dominant post-season runs well into his NBA career.

[bizil]

If you include Dr. J's peak seasons in the ABA, he is also in the discussion for GOAT SF. Hell, in his rookie season, he averaged a staggering 33.3 ppg, 20.4 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on .519 FG% (and a .569 TS%) in his 11 playoff games. And he would hang several more dominant post-season runs well into his NBA career.

I agree! I've said that Bron or Bird is the NBA's GOAT SF. In that realm, I think Doc is #3. But in TOTAL PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY, Dr. J is the GOAT SF. At least until Bron can catch him...

[LAZERUSS]

I agree! I've said that Bron or Bird is the NBA's GOAT SF. In that realm, I think Doc is #3. But in TOTAL PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY, Dr. J is the GOAT SF. At least until Bron can catch him...

He has a case. If you include his ABA years, with his NBA seasons... 4 MVPs, 3 titles, and surely 2 FMVPs had the award existed in the ABA.

And his 4 year ABA run from '72-73 thru '75-76 was actually better than Bird's three year run from '84 thru '86. Of course, we will never really know what his numbers would have been had he played in the NBA in those years, but based on Rick Barry's ABA and NBA seasons from '67 thru '75, Erving's numbers quite likely would have been similar.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Of course, you had to throw Wilt into this discussion. Ok, I can play that game. The major difference between an injured Wilt, and an injured Bird? Chamberlain played exceptionally well, and Bird did not (and in fact, missed games.)

And Bird played THREE games in that '83 Bucks series, and was simply AWFUL in them. BTW, I believe he had the FLU in the game he missed. In any case... 18 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 6.0 apg, and on a .441 FG% (and a .667 FT%.)

Furthermore, Wilt had major knee surgery early in his '69-70 season (after nine games), and came back at way less than 100%, and hung a 22.1 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.5 apg, .549 FG% average in his 18 playoff games (and a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) How did Larry do in his '89 post-season after his back injury side-lined him after six games in his regular season?

As for Bird in his horrendous '88 series against the Pistons...McHale hung a 27-7-3 .563 FG% in that same series. We simply don't know what an injured Lebron would have contributed to that Celtic team, since he has been relatively injury-free his entire career.

I don't really care about your God, Wilt Chamberlain, here... All that playing exceptionally well and yet he still won less rings than Bird, and yet he's still known as one of the biggest chokers :rolleyes:

Yes, he had the Flu during the course of that series, but he was also playing with a dislocated finger on his shooting hand... Shows how much you know though, yet always talk shit without any context... Total opposite when it comes to Wilt, obviously

Ofc that Bird wasn't showing off out there, or talking about his injuries... Like a lot of diva-ass players do many times, including LeBron.

Still, INJURED Bird was the Celtics' best player in 1983 vs the Bucks, when he was out there.

You keep talking shit about his play but he was their best, what does it say about the rest of them in your mind? :lol
Parish played below his regular standards and not very well (worse than Bird), McHale and Cornbread didn't do much, Tiny was terrible, Henderson was pretty average... They were just shitty.

And a series like that was sure nice to show how Boston's offense (and even defense) just plummeted without an healthy Bird... Evident many times, not only there.

BTW, Larry free of serious injuries in 1984 vs the Bucks... 27.4 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.4 spg on 50.0% FG, 60.3% TS.
In 1986 killing them too, winning both series.
I wonder if there's a reason why he wasn't even remotely close to that in 1983? :rolleyes:

Larry MURDERED the Bad Boys in 1987, being clutch af, Celtics got past them because of him... Yet in the following season he doesn't even come remotely close to what he did before vs them :rolleyes: Just by chance, huh? :rolleyes: Dude was on his last legs, had to get surgery on both heels then back... He more than PROVED himself vs those Pistons, like I've said, yet you keep on rambling on.

[RRR3]

Wilt>>>>>>Bird.

[Da_Realist]

Larry MURDERED the Bad Boys in 1987, being clutch af, Celtics got past them because of him... Yet in the following season he doesn't even come remotely close to what he did before vs them :rolleyes: Just by chance, huh? :rolleyes: Dude was on his last legs, had to get surgery on both heels then back... He more than PROVED himself vs those Pistons, like I've said, yet you keep on rambling on.

The last three games were a pure masterpiece.

[colts19]

Two can play that game. Move a 2012 Lebron into the '83 Celtics starting lineup, and for sure they rout the much worse Bucks, who in actuality, swept Bird's Celtics. And put a '12 Lebron on the '88 Celtics, and he is going to do much better than 19.8 ppg on a .351 FG% against the Bad Boys in the playoffs.

Maybe, but if iggy and leonard can win fmvp while guarding Lebron, I wonder how S Moncrief would do.

A peak Lebron was a MONSTER, at EVERY aspect of the game.

Was he better than a peak Bird? Probably not...but then again, Bird, at his peak, was actually only about a three year window (from '84 thru '86...with a significant post-season drop in both '87 and '88.)

Before '84, Bird's post-season play, and post-season team success, were nothing spectacular. And, of course, after '86, a dramatic decline.

OK. Lets look at it by year.
1980 Bird improves team by 32 games and loses to a really good Sixers team.
1981 Nothing spectacular, CHAMPIOSHIP.
1982 Lost to a all time great Sixers team. No shame in that, so did everyone else.
1983 Lost to Milw. a team that I believe was vastly underrated due to the conference and era they played in. I don't make tons of excuses for Bird like you do for Wilt. I just say they lost to a better team at the time they played.

So, overall I would say that was still a fairly spectacular first 4 years.


I'm not saying that Lebron is not a top ten talent, because he is. He just doesn't always play that way. I guess it just boils down to, in this years playoffs you think Bron was all world. I on the other hand think he pounded the air out of the ball and didn't play team basketball. When your Center scores 28 points, then the next game hardly plays in or to give you more room to stat pad. I have a problem with it.

[aj1987]

I guess it just boils down to, in this years playoffs you think Bron was all world. I on the other hand think he pounded the air out of the ball and didn't play team basketball. When your Center scores 28 points, then the next game hardly plays in or to give you more room to stat pad. I have a problem with it.
I love how you guys just jump to conclusions that no one ever saw '80's basketball, but literally have no idea what you're talking about, when it comes to the current era.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

Now tell me how LeBron lost the Cavs the Finals, by not being like Bird and getting others involved...

[colts19]

I love how you guys just jump to conclusions that no one ever saw '80's basketball, but literally have no idea what you're talking about, when it comes to the current era.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

Now tell me how LeBron lost the Cavs the Finals, by not being like Bird and getting others involved...

I find it funny how you guys always blame Lebron teammates when he loses, but when Bird loses, its his fault.

[aj1987]

I find it funny how you guys always blame Lebron teammates when he loses, but when Bird loses, its his fault.
Wow, you just got rekt and have absolutely no response. I guess numbers and facts just don't cut it, when it comes to Bird stans. Should stick with talking out the ass and opinions.

BTW, I never blamed Bird for his team's losses.

[RRR3]

I love how you guys just jump to conclusions that no one ever saw '80's basketball, but literally have no idea what you're talking about, when it comes to the current era.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

Now tell me how LeBron lost the Cavs the Finals, by not being like Bird and getting others involved...
Pat roison

[SHAQisGOAT]

The last three games were a pure masterpiece.

True.

Stuff like that unbelievable, extremely clutch steal in game5, 35 points on .758 TS% in game6, closing out the series with a 37/9/9 game7...
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/rejoice.png

No wonder that Rodman was salty af, Bird was styling on him and everyone else, probably the 1st time he got murked by a white boy on a basketball court, even got "dunked on".


Oh, and I forgot to point something out to the people who were talking about "replacing" Bird with LeBron, then bringing up McHale's numbers: McHale playing alongside LeBron ain't doing shit like that, tbh...

Bird could gel with any type of teammate or strategy, he could impact the game in numerous ways while maintaining his best level playing in different "styles", and he also let everyone do their thing but then stepped up when needed.

Larry was even playing mostly off-ball, drew the most attention everywhere on the court while being very unselfish and playmaking with the best of them, making the right play for the team most of the time.

You had to have at least one man glued to Bird or else you'd be screwed (easier said than done though), and in order to do his best scoring/playing he didn't need for most of his teammates to clear-out and space the floor...
You'd probably see Kevin mostly spotting up on the corner or some shit, if playing alongside James :lol

Kevin needed space to do his thing in the post where he showed his upmost impact, he needed to get the ball in the flow of things, quickly when arriving to his sweet-spots... Plus, he already had more TO's than assists for his career, as it is.

McHale went from averaging 22.6 PPG on 60.4% FG in 1988 to 22.5 PPG on 54.6% FG in 1989 when Bird was sidelined (never being the same again afterwards); and 1988 was already a post-injury McHale.

[RRR3]

Chris Bosh put up ~25/7 in 2012 in the ~14 or some games Wade was out in 2012. But shaqisgoat will continue to push his agenda, and act like Bosh should have been scoring a ton as the THIRD option.

[aj1987]

Chris Bosh put up ~25/7 in 2012 in the ~14 or some games Wade was out in 2012. But shaqisgoat will continue to push his agenda, and act like Bosh should have been scoring a ton as the THIRD option.
Miami with LeBron in '14 - 54 wins
Miami w/o LeBron in '15 - 37 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '10 - 61 wins
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '11 - 19 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '15 - 3-10
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '15 - 50-19

Bosh with LeBron in '14 - 52%
Bosh W/O LeBron in '15 - 46%

Wade with LeBron in '14 - 55%
Wade W/O LeBron in '15 - 47%

Mo with LeBron - 17 PPG
Mo W/O LeBron - 14 PPG

West with LeBron - 9 PPG
West W/O LeBron - 6 PPG

[colts19]

I love how you guys just jump to conclusions that no one ever saw '80's basketball, but literally have no idea what you're talking about, when it comes to the current era.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

Now tell me how LeBron lost the Cavs the Finals, by not being like Bird and getting others involved...

If as you say the whole cavs team except Lebron were completely bad as a result of not having any basketball IQ. Well then your right Lebron is a GOD. It just seems like if guys have played ball all their life, by the time their in their late 20's, they would know how.

I don't remember Bird or Magic ever having low IQ teammates. Lebron and Wilt are the only one's that have a whole team full of them. Or maybe it has something to do with the style of ball Lebron and Wilt played.

[RRR3]

Miami with LeBron in '14 - 54 wins
Miami w/o LeBron in '15 - 37 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '10 - 61 wins
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '11 - 19 wins

Cleveland with LeBron in '15 - 3-10
Cleveland w/o LeBron in '15 - 50-19

Bosh with LeBron in '14 - 52%
Bosh W/O LeBron in '15 - 46%

Wade with LeBron in '14 - 55%
Wade W/O LeBron in '15 - 47%

Mo with LeBron - 17 PPG
Mo W/O LeBron - 14 PPG

West with LeBron - 9 PPG
West W/O LeBron - 6 PPG
Worst teammate ever. Bird would have made Wade a 25+ Scorer for sure. Oh wait he averaged that the last time he was still healthy and in his prime WITH LeBron. :rolleyes: and averaged ~25 PPG per 36 minutes in 2012 IIRC

[RRR3]

If as you say the whole cavs team except Lebron were completely bad as a result of not having any basketball IQ. Well then your right Lebron is a GOD. It just seems like if guys have played ball all their life, by the time their in their late 20's, they would know how.

I don't remember Bird or Magic ever having low IQ teammates. Lebron and Wilt are the only one's that have a whole team full of them. Or maybe it has something to do with the style of ball Lebron and Wilt played.
Really dude? We hear about how shitty MJ and Kobes teammates were on ISH all the of time.

Hell, some of you guys seem fond of acting as if Bird was playing with a Dleague team

[aj1987]

If as you say the whole cavs team except Lebron were completely bad as a result of not having any basketball IQ. Well then your right Lebron is a GOD. It just seems like if guys have played ball all their life, by the time their in their late 20's, they would know how.

I don't remember Bird or Magic ever having low IQ teammates. Lebron and Wilt are the only one's that have a whole team full of them. Or maybe it has something to do with the style of ball Lebron and Wilt played.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

How do you still not get it? Good god, you're dense AF.

JR is a known low IQ idiot. Delly is nothing more than a hustle dork. In fact, I backed up all my statements with FACTS and numbers. Shouldn't be that hard to understand.

[RRR3]

SHAQISGOAT, answer this, do you honestly think Bird wins in LeBrons situation in the 2007, 2014 or 2015?

If not, cut the "2/6" BS. LeBron has lot a grand total of ONE final series he should have won. Granted he was atrocious in said series.

[colts19]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

How do you still not get it? Good god, you're dense AF.

JR is a known low IQ idiot. Delly is nothing more than a hustle dork. In fact, I backed up all my statements with FACTS and numbers. Shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Your the one who is dense AF. You don't understand anything but box scores. You have no clue how the game is suppose to be played. This era is no different than anyother era. The game is played the same way. If you play the game the right way your chances of winning increase. If you blame your teammates for your not playing the right way, your chances of winning decrease. It really is that simple Dumb***.

[SHAQisGOAT]

SHAQISGOAT, answer this, do you honestly think Bird wins in LeBrons situation in the 2007, 2014 or 2015?

If not, cut the "2/6" BS. LeBron has lot a grand total of ONE final series he should have won. Granted he was atrocious in said series.

Show me where I've said that? :confusedshrug:

Let's just say...

1981 Bird in LeBron's "situation" for the 2007 Finals? Clearly wouldn't have won a ring but definitely would've won AT LEAST one game...

1986 Bird in LeBron's "situation" for the 2014 Finals? Don't think he would've won the title but looking at the whole picture (I can be more detailed if you want to) Larry would've done a better job with his team winning more than just one game.

1987 Bird in LeBron's "situation" for the 2015 Finals? Still wouldn't have won it, I'll leave it at that.


What 2/6 BS? You're acting like I'm one of those dudes who only posts shit like that :rolleyes: :facepalm

[RRR3]

So Bird would have achieved the same results in those years, more or less.


Great. Now stop using 2/6 narratives.