Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Is Overrated

[JohnMax]

#7) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Weaknesses: Kareem had to have a dominating point guard in order to succeed. In Milwaukee, he had Oscar Robertson. when Robertson retired, they went from the NBA finals to a losing record (1974-75). The next year, Jabbar went to L.A, where he posted another losing record, playing with hall of fame guard Gail Goodrich (1975-76). His Lakers underachieved, even though he played with Norm Nixon, until Magic Johnson joined the team and made them great (1979-80). Jabbar was a major player on those teams, but without Magic, they aren't a contender. That is the biggest reason he is #7. If you draw names from a hat, what are the chances of getting Oscar or Magic? Anything less and Kareem's team will struggle. Furthermore, he was an underachieving rebounder when compared to guys like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Nate Thurmond. Wilt led the league in rebounding at the age of 36. Kareem wasn't even the best on his own team at that age, averaging less than 8 per game.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm

http://i.imgur.com/JVbU4gz.png

http://i.imgur.com/gsx6ZzB.png

[ClipperRevival]

Anyone who has KAJ listed #7 on the all time great list should not be taken seriously. He is 1 or 2 on most lists.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Anyone who has KAJ listed #7 on the all time great list should not be taken seriously. He is 1 or 2 on most lists.

Kareem gets away with a lot of shit that other all time greats get roasted for..

pretty big double standard..

If Lebron & Kobe missed the playoffs twice in their prime that would be held against them huge..

and Kareem only won with Oscar & Magic.. and when KAJ retired Oscar and Magic were easily top 5 all time... Oscar was top 3 at worst when he retired, when KAJ retired the top 5 looked something like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic in no order..

won his last ring averging 14/6..

[ClipperRevival]

Kareem gets away with a lot of shit that other all time greats get roasted for..

pretty big double standard..

If Lebron & Kobe missed the playoffs twice in their prime that would be held against them huge..

and Kareem only won with Oscar & Magic.. and when KAJ retired Oscar and Magic were easily top 5 all time...

I don't have a problem if he gets pushed down to 5 but anything lower, you lose some credibility if you consider his entire body of work.

[StephHamann]

Dirk's defense is better than KAJs

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Kareem was a NYC legend and hype surrounded him. He played for UCLA and won championships. Won championships in high school.

In the NBA, he got drafted by a solid team and had the big O arguably a top 5 time player of all time at that point in the game. Then he had Magic Johnson who legitimately is still a top 5 of all time (even arguably a #2 or #3). Kareem is one of the few NBA players who were given the reigns of great teams and made "playoff teams" into "championship teams."

I used to rate him #2 overall but if you really think about it, as a player, he was pampered with great teams during his NBA career and was considerably the best high school player/college player of his generation. Heck, I remember reading a few times online how even to this day people say Kareem had more hype coming out of NYC than LeBron out of Akron (I still find it crazy how absurdly gifted he was physically at 18 years old).

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't have a problem if he gets pushed down to 5 but anything lower, you lose some credibility if you consider his entire body of work.

well you said that he was top 1 or 2 on most list, i agree that anything outside of top 5 is a little out there though..

If his career played out in todays game I feel like he would be roasted for a lot of things that happened in his career that don't really get talked about today.. but imo thats just the big man bias that so many big men get their weakness's and failures swept under the rug..

[Kawhi]

Dirk's defense is better than KAJs
Peak Kareem was a DPOY-calibre player. Stop it.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

well you said that he was top 1 or 2 on most list, i agree that anything outside of top 5 is a little out there though..

If his career played out in todays game I feel like he would be roasted for a lot of things that happened in his career that don't really get talked about today.. but imo thats just the big man bias that so many big men get their weakness's and failures swept under the rug..

He's somewhere between #3 and #5.

[305Baller]

Centers cant do it by themselves, no matter how good they are.

[DonDadda59]

Dirk's defense is better than KAJs

:wtf:


Kareem gets away with a lot of shit that other all time greats get roasted for..

pretty big double standard..

If Lebron & Kobe missed the playoffs twice in their prime that would be held against them huge..

Didn't the Lakers go from the Finals to 34 wins right after Shaq left? :confusedshrug:


Heck, I remember reading a few times online how even to this day people say Kareem had more hype coming out of NYC than LeBron out of Akron

He didn't have a fraction of the hype Bron had, but that has to do more with time frames than anything. ESPN used to play Bron's HS games on primetime, he was on the cover of major magazines, got a $100 million contract from Nike before playing a single NBA preseason game, etc.

Lew never got anything close to that sort of treatment, but he was a beast coming out of HS/College.

They even outlawed the dunk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE) to try to minimize his dominance.

Even Jerry West during Wilt's prime was on the record that Alcindor in College was a superior player to Dippy.

[kennethgriffin]

#7) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Weaknesses: Kareem had to have a dominating point guard in order to succeed. In Milwaukee, he had Oscar Robertson. when Robertson retired, they went from the NBA finals to a losing record (1974-75). The next year, Jabbar went to L.A, where he posted another losing record, playing with hall of fame guard Gail Goodrich (1975-76). His Lakers underachieved, even though he played with Norm Nixon, until Magic Johnson joined the team and made them great (1979-80). Jabbar was a major player on those teams, but without Magic, they aren't a contender. That is the biggest reason he is #7. If you draw names from a hat, what are the chances of getting Oscar or Magic? Anything less and Kareem's team will struggle. Furthermore, he was an underachieving rebounder when compared to guys like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Nate Thurmond. Wilt led the league in rebounding at the age of 36. Kareem wasn't even the best on his own team at that age, averaging less than 8 per game.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm

http://i.imgur.com/gsx6ZzB.png



what successful big man other than hakeem in 94 didnt have a ball dominant star guard that could make plays

[AirFederer]

Roy Hibbert with a hook shot





























:lol

[GIF REACTION]

So is Shaq

Dude was injured most of the time. Was averaging like 60 games a season

[CavaliersFTW]

He is GOAT tier, it's virtually impossible to overrate a GOAT tier player in a vacuum. Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan. Incredible players with incredible resume's.

The only way they might be overrated is if someone starts trying to disrespect other great players with petty criticisms in order to prop them up. "Player X didn't do this" "Player Y didn't do that". blah blah blah. When you are criticising other players and failing to acknowledge their own greatness, while putting your own candidate on a pedastal, I suppose you're kind of overrating them. Though it's not so much overrating them as much as being a shithead towards the other legends.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Didn't the Lakers go from the Finals to 34 wins right after Shaq left? :confusedshrug:




Lakers lost 4 out of 5 starters & their coach,

Bucks brought back their two leading scorers and their coach missed the playoffs and KAJ dipped after that year to go join the Lakers where he played all 82 games and still.. missed the playoffs again in his prime..

and the Bucks had the same record in 75 ( with Kareem) as they did in 76 (without Kareem)

sooooo yeah

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

He is GOAT tier, it's virtually impossible to overrate a GOAT tier player in a vacuum. Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan. Incredible players with incredible resume's.

The only way they might be overrated is if someone starts trying to disrespect other great players with petty criticisms in order to prop them up. "Player X didn't do this" "Player Y didn't do that". blah blah blah. When you are criticising other players and failing to acknowledge their own greatness, while putting your own candidate on a pedastal, I suppose you're kind of overrating them. Though it's not so much overrating them as much as being a shithead towards the other legends.

sorry but you're not GOAT tier when you have more losses in the finals as the other guys in that tier combined while playing in an era where you regularly only had to win 4-8 games in the playoffs to reach the finals..

GOAT in the regular season though..

[fpliii]

and the Bucks had the same record in 75 ( with Kareem) as they did in 76 (without Kareem)
Wait what? In 75 with Kareem Milwaukee went 35-30 (.538, 44 win pace; 3-14 in games he missed, 18 win pace), and in 76 they went 38-44.

[ShawkFactory]

well you said that he was top 1 or 2 on most list, i agree that anything outside of top 5 is a little out there though..

If his career played out in todays game I feel like he would be roasted for a lot of things that happened in his career that don't really get talked about today.. but imo thats just the big man bias that so many big men get their weakness's and failures swept under the rug..
Every superstar from every era would be roasted in this day and age. I feel like the Internet and social media have created more haters. Or at least more of a medium for it obviously.

I always wonder if fans of bird hated magic and vice versa like Kobe/Lebron fans hate the other player.

[DMV2]

1 chip in a decade where he won 5 MVPs. Also had a triple double machine in Big O

5 chips once he played with the GOAT PG.

Can't put him at #1. But he's still #2 simply of longevity and all-time total records.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wait what? In 75 with Kareem Milwaukee went 35-30 (.538, 44 win pace; 3-14 in games he missed, 18 win pace), and in 76 they went 38-44.

as a whole they went 38-44, the dude I was responding to was using the Lakers 05 season against Kobe where he also missed 20 games so what's the point of providing context when he wasn't..

they were on pace for 44 wins with a healthy KAJ.. ok but they replaced him with some dude named Elmore Smith and won 6 less games than they were projected to win with a prime KAJ :confusedshrug:

that doesn't scream "this guy is the possible GOAT" at me, and then he went to LA in 76 and only won 40 games, with a HOFer who was still young besides him..

In total he won a single game in the secound round before Magic showed up..

i'm just pointing out what I see, he's usually considered top 2 GOAT, but looking strictly at his NBA career, and the criteria people use these days when ranking players, I don't see how he has any argument over Jordan :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

I've consistently ranked KAJ very highly, if you look at his career you can't put him anywhere but in the top 5, but GOAT status..?? I'm just not seeing the argument.

[ClipperRevival]

as a whole they went 38-44, the dude I was responding to was using the Lakers 05 season against Kobe where he also missed 20 games so what's the point of providing context when he wasn't..

they were on pace for 44 wins with a healthy KAJ.. ok but they replaced him with some dude named Elmore Smith and won 6 less games than they were projected to win with a prime KAJ :confusedshrug:

that doesn't scream "this guy is the possible GOAT" at me, and then he went to LA in 76 and only won 40 games, with a HOFer who was still young besides him..

In total he won a single game in the secound round before Magic showed up..

i'm just pointing out what I see, he's usually considered top 2 GOAT, but looking strictly at his NBA career, and the criteria people use these days when ranking players, I don't see how he has any argument over Jordan :confusedshrug:

Arguments KAJ has over MJ?

6 MVP (1 more than MJ)
Superior college career (maybe best ever)
Longevity
All time leading scorer

I rank MJ 1 but of someone were to rank KAJ, I can accept that. To me, KAJ is the only guy who has a legit claim at GOAT over MJ if you look at the entire criteria.

[tpols]

Yeah he is the only guy who can win majority of his rings as a 'sidekick' and not yet ridiculed for it. Had the whole 70s decade to himself too and could only muster up one ring.

Kareem wilt and Shaq are three guys who are individually dominant and a spectacle to see.. like king kongs, but they weren't leaders, didn't promote chemistry and were all insecure in their own ways. guys like magic bird Russell Duncan may not have been as awe inspiring to see individually but they just foster winning environments way more and thus are better.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Arguments KAJ has over MJ?

6 MVP (1 more than MJ)
Superior college career (maybe best ever)
Longevity
All time leading scorer

I rank MJ 1 but of someone were to rank KAJ, I can accept that. To me, KAJ is the only guy who has a legit claim at GOAT over MJ if you look at the entire criteria.

I don't account for college play or international play, strictly NBA..

and the list of arguments that MJ would have over Kareem is much larger..

and how the hell did Kareem win MVP in 76 when he played all 82 games and finished the season with a losing record..

that's interesting to say the least..

[bizil]

If u look at EVERY great center in their prime-peak, they won titles with an HOF caliber perimeter player MOST OF THE TIME. Shaq had Kobe and Wade. Moses had Dr. J. Hakeem had Drexler. Russell had Cousy, Hondo, and Sam Jones.

Wilt had Billy C and Hal Greer. Hell later in Wilt's career he had West and Goodrich. So to knock Kareem BECAUSE he played with Big O and Magic is SOME HATER SHIT!! If u look at MOST of the seasons he played with those two, Cap was REGARDED as the best player on those teams. And keep in mind THERE IS ALSO a reason why centers dominate the MVP award historically.

It wasn't until Kareem was near his late 30's that he WASN'T the best player on his team. IF ANYTHING, Kareem made their lives easy as well. The only player EVER in Kareem's life that was better than him on a team was Magic. And as I said earlier, that was when Kareem was at the end of his epic career!!

[DonDadda59]

as a whole they went 38-44, the dude I was responding to was using the Lakers 05 season against Kobe where he also missed 20 games so what's the point of providing context when he wasn't..


Bean in '03-'04: 65 games; Lakers 56-26, make the Finals
Bean in '04-'05: 66 games; Lakers 34-48, miss the playoffs

:confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bean in '03-'04: 65 games; Lakers 56-26, make the Finals
Bean in '04-'05: 66 games; Lakers 34-48, miss the playoffs

:confusedshrug:

why are ignoring the fact that the Lakers lost every starter not named Kobe and lost their coach also..

is he this rent free in your mind that you're willing to ignore all context and post this drivel :oldlol: :oldlol:

like whats the point of even posting that, to insinuate that Kobe couldn't win without Shaq when that obviously isn't true..

he went on to win rings with a lesser player than Shaq beside him, while Kareem went on to win rings with a better player than Oscar so the comparison you're trying to make isn't even relevant

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah he is the only guy who can win majority of his rings as a 'sidekick' and not yet ridiculed for it. Had the whole 70s decade to himself too and could only muster up one ring.

Kareem wilt and Shaq are three guys who are individually dominant and a spectacle to see.. like king kongs, but they weren't leaders, didn't promote chemistry and were all insecure in their own ways. guys like magic bird Russell Duncan may not have been as awe inspiring to see individually but they just foster winning environments way more and thus are better.

Hogwash. He has 2 fmvp and very easily could've won in 1980 where he was clearly their best player until his injury. That's 3 as the best player. And he was very impactful in 1982 and 1987. The only title he was possibly 3rd fiddle was 1988 but he was freaken 40 years old.

[DonDadda59]

why are ignoring the fact that the Lakers lost every starter not named Kobe and lost their coach also..

The Lakers got Odom and Butler in return, who had just gone to the second round with a rookie Wade. Let's not make believe that LA lost players and got nothing in return.

Still, Lakers went from the Finals to 34 wins with Bean playing one more game than he did the season before.

These are facts.

[DaOldLion]

Hogwash. He has 2 fmvp and very easily could've won in 1980 where he was clearly their best player until his injury. That's 3 as the best player. And he was very impactful in 1982 and 1987. The only title he was possibly 3rd fiddle was 1988 but he was freaken 40 years old.

we live in an era where guys like Kobe & Lebron get everything they do scrutinized.. for example Kobe won a game 7 while having a bad shooting game and gets scrutinized for that constantly, Kareem wins a series while completely missing the game 7 and people think he should have won finals MVP

[ClipperRevival]

we live in an era where guys like Kobe & Lebron get everything they do scrutinized.. for example Kobe won a game 7 while having a bad shooting game and gets scrutinized for that constantly, Kareem wins a series while completely missing the game 7 and people think he should have won finals MVP

Kareem didn't miss game 7, he missed game 6. But he averaged 33.4 ppg in 5 games and gave his team a 3-2 lead before the injury. Magic averaged 21.5 ppg in that series.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The Lakers got Odom and Butler in return, who had just gone to the second round with a rookie Wade. Let's not make believe that LA lost players and got nothing in return.

Still, Lakers went from the Finals to 34 wins with Bean playing one more game than he did the season before.

These are facts.

Shaq and Kobe missed a combined around 40 games in the 04 season and still made the playoffs..

if the Lakers still had the type of supporting cast that could make the playoffs with their two best players missing that much time in 05 then maybe you'd have a point..

Odom missed more games than Kobe in 05, Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe

Bulls lost in 7 games in the second round in the 94 playoffs without Jordan, lost in 6 games in the second round in 95 with Jordan

these are facts retard :lol :lol

[rmt]

How can any player with 6 MVPs (high individual peak), all-time scoring record (longevity) and 6 rings (winning) be over-rated? That kind of resume belongs at the very top.

[DonDadda59]

Shaq and Kobe missed a combined around 40 games in the 04 season and still made the playoffs..

if the Lakers still had the type of supporting cast that could make the playoffs with their two best players missing that much time in 05 then maybe you'd have a point..

Odom missed more games than Kobe in 05, Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe

Bulls lost in 7 games in the second round in the 94 playoffs without Jordan, lost in 6 games in the second round in 95 with Jordan

these are facts retard :lol :lol

The Bulls were 34-31 when Jordan came back, on par to win 42-43 games. When he came back, they went 13-4, on par for 63 wins. His first full season back, the Bulls set the all time wins record with 72.

Bean on the other hand took the Lakers from 56 wins and a finals berth to 34 wins and jack shit. :yaohappy:

Wow, so Jordan playing in 17 games in '95 had a far, far... far greater impact than Bean playing in 1 more game than he did during the finals run?

Thanks for illuminating that. Much appreciated. Stay mad. :cheers:

[DaOldLion]

How can any player with 6 MVPs (high individual peak), all-time scoring record (longevity) and 6 rings (winning) be over-rated? That kind of resume belongs at the very top.

as somebody already mentioned in this thread Kareem won an MVP while missing the playoffs which makes me wonder what exactly was the criteria then compared to now..

[tpols]

Kareem didn't miss game 7, he missed game 6. But he averaged 33.4 ppg in 5 games and gave his team a 3-2 lead before the injury. Magic averaged 21.5 ppg in that series.

He didn't even get on the plane supposedly.. you know that man was bitter as fk stewing back home when he saw how magic replaced him and took the award lol. Magic was a nice guy though and let him get one in the mid 80's when magic himself had formed into the better player.. so it's even anyways.


The high level stuff doesn't matter because pippin can be called a top 5 player in the league in 92 by goat legend coach daly, be a walking 20 ppg near triple double with GOAT defense and he still gets shitted on for being a sidekick.. kobe can do 29/7/6 high level.. still a sidekick.. if Bron ever lost a fmvp to Kyrie oh lord the sidekick talk would never stop (especially from me :D ) and so on...

Kareem never had to face these stigmas.. I don't think anyone pre Internet Era did.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The Bulls were 34-31 when Jordan came back, on par to win 42-43 games. When he came back, they went 13-4, on par for 63 wins. His first full season back, the Bulls set the all time wins record with 72.

Bean on the other hand took the Lakers from 56 wins and a finals berth to 34 wins and jack shit. :yaohappy:

Wow, so Jordan playing in 17 games in '95 had a far, far... far greater impact than Bean playing in 1 more game than he did during the finals run?

Thanks for illuminating that. Much appreciated. Stay mad. :cheers:

oh look who wants to add context now you hypocritical fucc boy :roll:

Bulls lost in 7 of the second round of the 94 playoffs without Jordan, Bulls lost in 6 games of the second round in the 95 playoffs with Jordan

these are facts :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

oh look who wants to add context now you hypocritical fucc boy :roll:

Bulls lost in 7 of the second round of the 94 playoffs without Jordan, Bulls lost in 6 games of the second round in the 95 playoffs with Jordan

these are facts :confusedshrug:

So what's worse- making the second round after doing it the season before or going from the finals to 34 wins when you play in more games during the latter?

Stay mad :yaohappy:

[TheMarkMadsen]

So what's worse- making the second round after doing it the season before or going from the finals to 34 wins when you play in more games during the latter?

Stay mad :yaohappy:

Jordan got added to same team that had lost in game 7 of the 2nd round and led them to a game 6 loss in the second round the following year :oldlol:

these are facts :confusedshrug:


the 04 Lakers team that made the finals had 4 different starters in 05 and a new coach.. you'd have to be a full blown retard to ignore all of that and continue to troll

so continue on, it suits you well..

[ClipperRevival]

He didn't even get on the plane supposedly.. you know that man was bitter as fk stewing back home when he saw how magic replaced him and took the award lol. Magic was a nice guy though and let him get one in the mid 80's when magic himself had formed into the better player.. so it's even anyways.


The high level stuff doesn't matter because pippin can be called a top 5 player in the league in 92 by goat legend coach daly, be a walking 20 ppg near triple double with GOAT defense and he still gets shitted on for being a sidekick.. kobe can do 29/7/6 high level.. still a sidekick.. if Bron ever lost a fmvp to Kyrie oh lord the sidekick talk would never stop (especially from me :D ) and so on...

Kareem never had to face these stigmas.. I don't think anyone pre Internet Era did.

The 80's Lakers were kind of odd in that it didn't have a clear hierarchy. At times, KAJ was their best player and others Magic. And the Magic detractors mention this also. In almost any other dynasty, there is a clear hierarchy. It is what it is. But KAJ has 2 fmvp and I think he was their best player in 1980. So 3/6 as "the man" and being incredibly impactful in 2 others and being 3rd fiddle in another is fine. Not everyone can win 6 rings and 6 fmvp and be clearly "the man".

If you want questionable legacy, look no further than Wilt. Dude was the 2nd leading scorer and 4th leading scorer in the finals when he won his 2 rings. And he won fmvp when he was the 4th leading scorer.

[DMV2]

He didn't even get on the plane supposedly.. you know that man was bitter as fk stewing back home when he saw how magic replaced him and took the award lol. Magic was a nice guy though and let him get one in the mid 80's when magic himself had formed into the better player.. so it's even anyways.


The high level stuff doesn't matter because pippin can be called a top 5 player in the league in 92 by goat legend coach daly, be a walking 20 ppg near triple double with GOAT defense and he still gets shitted on for being a sidekick.. kobe can do 29/7/6 high level.. still a sidekick.. if Bron ever lost a fmvp to Kyrie oh lord the sidekick talk would never stop (especially from me :D ) and so on...

Kareem never had to face these stigmas.. I don't think anyone pre Internet Era did. So Kareem won a ring where he didn't even play the full Finals series?

Tell me more.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan got added to same team that had lost in game 7 of the 2nd round and led them to a game 6 loss in the second round the following year :oldlol:

these are facts :confusedshrug:

Second round to second round.

Finals to 34 wins.

Bean joined a team that won 56-61 games and made the WCF while he rode the bench. His first ring came with him putting up past prime Jerry Stackhouse numbers in the finals.

Jordan>Kareem>>>Kobe

Facts.

Stay Mad :yaohappy:

[Hey Yo]

He didn't even get on the plane supposedly.. you know that man was bitter as fk stewing back home when he saw how magic replaced him and took the award lol. Magic was a nice guy though and let him get one in the mid 80's when magic himself had formed into the better player.. so it's even anyways.


The high level stuff doesn't matter because pippin can be called a top 5 player in the league in 92 by goat legend coach daly, be a walking 20 ppg near triple double with GOAT defense and he still gets shitted on for being a sidekick.. kobe can do 29/7/6 high level.. still a sidekick.. if Bron ever lost a fmvp to Kyrie oh lord the sidekick talk would never stop (especially from me :D ) and so on...

Kareem never had to face these stigmas.. I don't think anyone pre Internet Era did.
Magic didn't replace him. That's a clear myth. All he did was take the opening tip and then played guard/forward the rest of the game.

[jayfan]

If u look at EVERY great center in their prime-peak, they won titles with an HOF caliber perimeter player MOST OF THE TIME. Shaq had Kobe and Wade. Moses had Dr. J. Hakeem had Drexler. Russell had Cousy, Hondo, and Sam Jones.


Hakeem won the first without Drexler.



.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Second round to second round.




wow second round to second round while playing next to an all nba first team nba player HOF player.. fucing GOAT :oldlol: :oldlol:

stay mad fucc boy, you have to ignore all context to make your retarded argument..

[Jasper]

OP has to remember - that back then drafting a number 1 or 2 pick makes a world of difference...

not now :rolleyes:

1) Only Bucks chip
2) all time scorer
3) HOFer
4) 50 greatest list

........ on and on and on ....

[DonDadda59]

wow second round to second round while playing next to an all nba first team nba player HOF player.. fucing GOAT :oldlol: :oldlol:


Finals to 34 wins while playing with 2 guys a rookie Wade took to the 2nd round. The same Wade who won finals MVP while playing with Shaq. Bean had 4 cracks at that and couldn't do it once. :roll:

When in doubt... always remember to stay mad :yaohappy:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Finals to 34 wins while playing with 2 guys a rookie Wade took to the 2nd round. The same Wade who won finals MVP while playing with Shaq. Bean had 4 cracks at that and couldn't do it once. :roll:

When in doubt... always remember to stay mad :yaohappy:


05 Lakers (lost Shaq, Malone, Payton, Fisher, Fox HOF coach Phil Jackson)

95 Bulls (still had all nba Pippen, all star PG in Armstrong, 96 MOTY Kukoc)


Lakers lost their entire team and coach, Bulls kept their best player, coach and all star point guard..

Jordan got added to a team that had 2 allstars, and led them to a faster exit in the playoffs than they had the year before.. :roll: :roll:

[bizil]

Hakeem won the first without Drexler.



.

IF U CAN READ PROPERLY, I SAID MOST OF THE TIME!!!!!!! One reason why I SAID THAT SPECIFICALLY is BECAUSE Dream won his first without Drexler. I'm aware of that!! Im a true student of the game AND CAN BACK UP EVERYTHING I POST!!

[DonDadda59]

05 Lakers (lost Shaq, Malone, Payton, Fisher, Fox HOF coach Phil Jackson)

95 Bulls (still had all nba Pippen, all star PG in Armstrong, 96 MOTY Kukoc)


Lakers lost their entire team and coach, Bulls kept their best player, coach and all star point guard..

Jordan got added to a team that had 2 allstars, and led them to a faster exit in the playoffs than they had the year before.. :roll: :roll:

You just don't know when to walk away and accept your L do you? Fine. Remember you did this to yourself. :facepalm

A rookie Wade playing in only 61 games took a team featuring Lamar Odom and Caron Butler to 42 wins and the second round of the playoffs.

Kobe in his 8th season playing in 65 games took a team featuring Lamar Odom and Caron Butler to 34 wins and jack shit... after the Lakers had just been in the finals.

A season later, a 3rd year Wade would win finals MVP playing alongside a faded Shaq whereas Kobe in 4 finals couldn't win a single finals MVP playing alongside the Diesel. Shaq won 3 straight while Kobe fetched his icy hot.

And if we dig a little deeper, go back in time even further...

The Lakers in Bean's rookie season won 56 games and made the second round with him putting up 7 PPG off the bench (Bean would go on to shoot airballs in that Jazz series like it was all the rage). His second year, they won 61 games and went to the WCF (where he would once again shit the bed against the Jazz to the tune of 10/2/1 on 38% FG :facepalm ).

The season after that he became a starter and the Lakers lost in the second round. :durantunimpressed:

So we're talking about a guy who joined a team that won 61 games and made the WCF with him riding the bench... and when he became a starter they lose in the second round.

How do you have 1 less championship and 4 less finals MVPs than a guy that was drafted by a 27 win team under those circumstances?

How? :biggums:

[catch24]

Wow Dondadda59 is getting roasted up in here.

Kobe led a team to 2 championships with a far worse version of Shaq, so why grasp for the low-hanging fruit? Knoe's twin over here. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Wow Dondadda59 is getting roasted up in here.

Kobe led a team to 2 championships with a far worse version of Shaq, so why grasp for the low-hanging fruit? Knoe's twin over here. :oldlol:

:biggums:

I'm guessing you don't own a dictionary.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/ac/ac774315db21fa8cb5423bd29a0d2106b630dd2adbe6889061 3b5f495020e4e1.jpg

[catch24]

:biggums:

I'm guessing you don't own a dictionary.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/ac/ac774315db21fa8cb5423bd29a0d2106b630dd2adbe6889061 3b5f495020e4e1.jpg

Kobe didn't lead the Lakers in 2009 and 2010 to 2 championships, with a worse version of Shaq? Really...?


Kobe in his 8th season playing in 65 games took a team featuring Lamar Odom and Caron Butler to 34 wins and jack shit

Kobe sat out 16 games because of his surgery. Injuries sidelined Lamar for 18 games, never mind their head coach, Rudy Tomjanovich, retiring mid-season because of his cancer.

Your Kobe hatred is pure, but doesn't allow you to see the forest for the trees.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe didn't lead the Lakers in 2009 and 2010 to 2 championships, with a worse version of Shaq? Really...?



Kobe sat out 16 games because of his surgery. Injuries sidelined Lamar for 18 games, never mind their head coach, Rudy Tomjanovich, retiring mid-season because of his cancer.

Your Kobe hatred is pure, but doesn't allow you to see the forest for the trees.

he began by bringing up Kobe for no reason and kept trolling without context. now he's writing essays..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe didn't lead the Lakers in 2009 and 2010 to 2 championships, with a worse version of Shaq? Really...?

Now you're confusing players :confusedshrug:

The only person who led a team to a championship with Shaq on the roster was Dwyane Wade.


Kobe sat out 16 games because of his surgery.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/LeBron-James-Smallest-Violin-Gif.gif

Pippen sat out 38 games in '98 following back surgery. The Bulls won 62 games and a 35 year old Jordan won MVP, the scoring title, All Star MVP (while ROASTING (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-LCvIFjjAA) young Beans), the championship, and his 6th finals MVP.

Nobody's got time for your sob stories sister. Wade in Kobe's place wins more rings.

Jordan>Kareem>>>Bean


he began by bringing up Kobe for no reason

You brought up the Bucks drop off following Oscar's departure as a reason that Kareem's legacy should be penalized. You even mentioned that Kobe would get heat if something like that happened.

I simply pointed out that the Lakers went from the Finals to 34 wins after Shaq's departure.

Then feelings were caught. :lol:

[catch24]

^Did Kobe not lead the Lakers to titles in 2009 and 2010, with a WORSE version of Shaq?

And now you're comparing Pippen to Kobe, when Kobe has already proven he could win titles as the lead guy. Again, Kobe...the best player on the team...played with and sat out from injuries. Lemme know if the Bulls lost their headcoach in 1998 :oldlol:

[catch24]

Paul Gasol is that "worse version of Shaq", for those new hoop fans reading this...


The only person who led a team to a championship with Shaq on the roster was Dwyane Wade.

Yeah, and Shaq was passed his prime.

Fox News aka DonDadda, listing "facts" without the slightest increment of context.

[Legends66NBA7]

You can literally make a case for every single player in NBA history to be overrated. You can literally make a case for every single athlete of every sport to be overrated, period.

But to be honest, these reasons are for the most part ridiculous. They lack a lot of context and have very different circumstances case by case.

[tpols]

You just don't know when to walk away and accept your L do you? Fine. Remember you did this to yourself. :facepalm

A rookie Wade playing in only 61 games took a team featuring Lamar Odom and Caron Butler to 42 wins and the second round of the playoffs.

Kobe in his 8th season playing in 65 games took a team featuring Lamar Odom and Caron Butler to 34 wins and jack shit... after the Lakers had just been in the finals.
:

This guy right here lol.. the king of making bullshit comparisons, tryna be a little smart-ass smh.


3 reasons why you're argument isn't analogous

1) you forgot to mention Dwayne wade was the third leading scorer on his team foregoing to add that the heat had an additional 17+ppg very good defensive player in Eddie Jones on top of Odom and caron on their roster

2) you ignore defensive help.. the heat had multiple very good defenders outside of wade while the Lakers were trash all around.

3) the heat played in a far easier conference





All the while Mike couldn't take his squad any farther than "pistol" pete myers could in his place and it wasn't until the goat rebounder/athlete/defender in Dennis Rodman joined the team that the bulls started their second 3peat. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[jlip]

#7) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Weaknesses: Kareem had to have a dominating point guard in order to succeed. In Milwaukee, he had Oscar Robertson. when Robertson retired, they went from the NBA finals to a losing record (1974-75). The next year, Jabbar went to L.A, where he posted another losing record, playing with hall of fame guard Gail Goodrich (1975-76). His Lakers underachieved, even though he played with Norm Nixon, until Magic Johnson joined the team and made them great (1979-80). Jabbar was a major player on those teams, but without Magic, they aren't a contender. That is the biggest reason he is #7. If you draw names from a hat, what are the chances of getting Oscar or Magic? Anything less and Kareem's team will struggle. Furthermore, he was an underachieving rebounder when compared to guys like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Nate Thurmond. Wilt led the league in rebounding at the age of 36. Kareem wasn't even the best on his own team at that age, averaging less than 8 per game.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm



I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but this OP is actually from a very old site whose ultimate purpose was to show how overrated he thought Jordan was. MJ is listed at #5 on the list.

Interestingly a few years later the creator of that site designed a companion page where he revised things a little and moved Bill Russell from #6 to #1. This would mean that MJ would be moved down to #6. Kareem would stay at #7.

[Lebron23]

And now theMarkmadsen is hating on Kareem. Kareem is a top 3 player of all time.

He won't be a 6x NBA MVP under today's NBA rules because you need to have a top 3 record in the league in order for you to win the MVP Award. Kareem won an MVP playing under a 0.500 team.

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were 34-31 when Jordan came back, on par to win 42-43 games. When he came back, they went 13-4, on par for 63 wins. His first full season back, the Bulls set the all time wins record with 72.

Bean on the other hand took the Lakers from 56 wins and a finals berth to 34 wins and jack shit. :yaohappy:

Wow, so Jordan playing in 17 games in '95 had a far, far... far greater impact than Bean playing in 1 more game than he did during the finals run?

Thanks for illuminating that. Much appreciated. Stay mad. :cheers:

The '95 Bulls were 34-31 with PIPPEN by HIMSELF. He didn't have Jordan, NOR did he have GRANT. You know the GRANT who, along with PIPPEN, went 55-27 the year before (and both of them missed a combined 22 games.)

You act like MJ single-handedly improved that team from 34-31 to 13-4. However, based on GRANT's IMPACT from the season before, had GRANT played in those same 17 games, with no MJ, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5 in them.

BTW, what was MJ's best season without BOTH PIPPEN and GRANT? It was his '87 season, when he had the highest scoring season of his career, and yet, could only take his team to a 40-42 record.

And as was also pointed out...

the '94 Bulls lost a close and controversial seven game ECSF series, to a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a game seven by four points to the champion 58-24 Rockets.

So, had GRANT and PIPPEN not missed 22 games in that '94 season, the Bulls likely would have won 60+ games, and had HCA in the playoffs. How HUGE would that have been? In that seven game Knick series, they went 3-0 at HOME.


And, as was also pointed out...

MJ came back to the SAME EXACT roster in '95, that had gone 55-27 the year before...sans GRANT, and with the addition of 20 ppg scorer Ron Harper and his exceptional defense...and then were easily whipped in the ECSF's by a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals. And MJ played at nearly the same level in that '95 post-season, as he had in his '93 post-season, and played considerably better than what he would in his '96 post-season.


Of course, Phil took one look at that '95 roster, and knew he had NO CHANCE at winning a ring. So, he went out an ADDED HOFer Rodman. Think about that... the '96 Bulls were essentially the SAME team as the '94 Bulls, who had gone 55-27 without Jordan, except they now had MJ, they replaced ELITE PF GRANT with HOFer RODMAN, and they also added Harper. No wonder they went 72-10.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem didn't miss game 7, he missed game 6. But he averaged 33.4 ppg in 5 games and gave his team a 3-2 lead before the injury. Magic averaged 21.5 ppg in that series.

And overall, 21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, .573 FG%, and an .875 FT%.

And, in the game in which KAJ missed, Magic led his team to their most convincing win of the series, and on the road.

Of course, all he did was hang a 42 point game, on 14-23 from the floor and 14-14 from the line, with 15 rebounds (which was FIVE more than anyone else who played that night), and seven assists (as a part-time PG.)

Not only that, but he CONTROLLED the game. The Lakers went from a plodding half-court offense, to a track team, and they RAN the Sixers into the ground.

So next time some idiot claims that Magic didn't deserve the '80 FMVP, you might want to straighten them out with the FACTS.

[LAZERUSS]

The 80's Lakers were kind of odd in that it didn't have a clear hierarchy. At times, KAJ was their best player and others Magic. And the Magic detractors mention this also. In almost any other dynasty, there is a clear hierarchy. It is what it is. But KAJ has 2 fmvp and I think he was their best player in 1980. So 3/6 as "the man" and being incredibly impactful in 2 others and being 3rd fiddle in another is fine. Not everyone can win 6 rings and 6 fmvp and be clearly "the man".

If you want questionable legacy, look no further than Wilt. Dude was the 2nd leading scorer and 4th leading scorer in the finals when he won his 2 rings. And he won fmvp when he was the 4th leading scorer.

In his '67 playoff run...all Wilt did was average 21.7 ppg, 29.0 rpg, 9.0 apg, and on a .579 FG%. Oh, and he badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot his three opposing centers (he held Dierking to a .427 FG%, Russell to a .358 FG%, and Thurmond to a .343 FG%.)

In his very first playoff game, all he did was hang 41 points, which would be a Sixer high in the entire playoffs. He followed that up with a 37 point game. So, in his first two playoff games, he averaged 39.0 ppg on a .648 FG%. THAT will give you an idea of what THAT Chamberlain was capable of.

In his third playoff game, he went back to facilitating, and hung a 16-30-19 (yes 19 assists) game. Oh, and he had an estimated 20 blocked shots in that game, as well.

For that first round series, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%. Or a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES.

In the EDF's, and against RUSSELL, and his eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, he hung yet ANOTHER TRIPLE DOUBLE SERIES, which included a QUAD-DOUBLE game of 24-32-13-12. He outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outshot Russell from the field by a .556 to .358 margin; outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 to 6.0 apg; and outrebounded Russell, per game, by a 32.0 to 23.4 rpg margin. BTW, the Sixers outscored the Celtics in that series, per game, by a 121.2 to 111.2 ppg margin...or almost precisely what Chamberlain outscored Russell by.

Oh, and in the clinching game five win...while "post-season leading scorer" Greer scored 32 points on 12-28 from the field...Chamberlain overwhelmed Russell with a 29 point game (with 22 of them coming in the first half when the game was still close), on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, and 13 assists (and another seven blocked shots)...to Russell's 4 four points, on 2-5 shooting from the floor, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists.


Then, in the Finals, Chamberlain BURIED Thurmond with a 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.7 apg, .560 FG% Finals (to Nate's 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.7 apg.) How dominant was Wilt in that Finals? He outscored Thurmond in five of those six games; outrebounded Nate in five of those six games; outassisted Thurmond in five of those six games; and outshot Thurmond from the field in ALL six games.

And while "leading post-season scorer" Greer puked all over the floor in the clinching game six win, with a paltry 15 points on 5-16 shooting, Chamberlain slaughtered Thurmond by outscoring him 24-12, outshooting him by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin, and outrebounding him, 23-22.

BTW, Wilt outshot a PEAK Thurmond .560 to .343 in that Finals...which was interesting, since a PEAK Kareem had three straight post-season series against Thurmond in which he shot .486, .428, and get this... .405 (oh, and in this series, Thurmond outscored KAJ, 25.0 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot him, .437 to .405.)


Next time someone questions Wilt's "scoring" in the '67 post-season, you can now DESTROY them with the FACTS.

Wilt's '67 post-season run was easily one of the most dominant in NBA history.

[LAZERUSS]

what successful big man other than hakeem in 94 didnt have a ball dominant star guard that could make plays

Chamberlain.

From his '66 season thru his '68 season, he led his team in ppg, rpg, FG%, and yes, apg, each season.

'66: 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, .540 FG%, and 5.2 apg.
'67: 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 FG%, and 7.8 apg.
'68: 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, .595 FG%, and 8.6 apg.

[LAZERUSS]

The 80's Lakers were kind of odd in that it didn't have a clear hierarchy. At times, KAJ was their best player and others Magic. And the Magic detractors mention this also. In almost any other dynasty, there is a clear hierarchy. It is what it is. But KAJ has 2 fmvp and I think he was their best player in 1980. So 3/6 as "the man" and being incredibly impactful in 2 others and being 3rd fiddle in another is fine. Not everyone can win 6 rings and 6 fmvp and be clearly "the man".

If you want questionable legacy, look no further than Wilt. Dude was the 2nd leading scorer and 4th leading scorer in the finals when he won his 2 rings. And he won fmvp when he was the 4th leading scorer.


Kareem was the LA's best player in their '80 title run...albeit, in their most important game of the '80 Finals...he watched the game from his couch, while MAGIC hung a 42-15-7 game en route to the FMVP.

So, even '80 was questionable.

From their '82 season on to KAJ's last season, covering eight straight seasons...Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting EVERY season.

Furthermore, while KAJ won a well-deserved FMVP in '85, MAGIC was the Lakers POST-SEASON MVP.

So, in their '82, and '85 title runs, MAGIC was their best player.

Then, in their '87 title run, MAGIC was CLEARLY the Lakers best player, and his '87 Finals were one of the greatest ever (26.0 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg...all of which led LA in each category, as well as a .541 FG%, and a '960 FT%.)

Oh, and in that '87 title run, it was now WORTHY who was LA's second best player (he outscored KAJ, per game in the playoffs, 23.6 ppg to 19.2 ppg, and outshot him from the field by a .591 to .530 mark.)


As for Kareem in '88? He was only the Lakers FOURTH best player in that title run (in fact, SIXTH,..as Green and Thompson were far more productive in their playoff minutes.) And the reality was, Kareem was simply AWFUL in the '88 Finals (13.4 ppg, 4.1 rpg, .414 FG%), and just HORRIFIC in his 29 minutes in game seven (four points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rbs, 3 TOs, and 5 PF's.) You could make a strong case that the Lakers won a ring DESPITE Kareem in '88.

BTW, Worthy won a disgraceful FMVP in '88, in a series in which Magic just dominated.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I have KAJ at #4 all-time.

And a PEAK Kareem at #2.

[Cali Syndicate]

Both kareem and magic are top 5 on the all time list imo. Almost all in the top 5 can be argued as goat. Mj obv has the best case. And as someone already stated, anyone can be overrated, if you look hard enough.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's certainly not overrated, but there's definitely shit Kareem gets a pass on that others don't

1. He played with a near consensus top 5 player in Magic and his titles hardly get called into question, meanwhile Kobe's first 3 rings are constantly undermined for playing with Shaq

2. He played in an abysmal conference for the majority of his career (on a stacked team no less) and almost never gets criticized for it, while LeBron's Finals appearances are constantly marginalized for playing in a terrible conference

3. He missed the playoffs back to back years in his prime, something no other top 10 player has done

[ClipperRevival]

And overall, 21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, .573 FG%, and an .875 FT%.

And, in the game in which KAJ missed, Magic led his team to their most convincing win of the series, and on the road.

Of course, all he did was hang a 42 point game, on 14-23 from the floor and 14-14 from the line, with 15 rebounds (which was FIVE more than anyone else who played that night), and seven assists (as a part-time PG.)

Not only that, but he CONTROLLED the game. The Lakers went from a plodding half-court offense, to a track team, and they RAN the Sixers into the ground.

So next time some idiot claims that Magic didn't deserve the '80 FMVP, you might want to straighten them out with the FACTS.

And Jamaal Wilkies had like 35 points in that game also but no one ever, and I mean ever, mentions this. KAJ was their best player basically for the entire season until the injury. Given what Magic did in Game 6 for a rookie, it was historic. And I don't have a problem with him winning fmvp. But KAJ was their best player for the entire season and that carries more weight to me.

[kennethgriffin]

https://i.not4plebs.org/boards/sp/image/1434/05/1434059609425.png

[ClipperRevival]

In his '67 playoff run...all Wilt did was average 21.7 ppg, 29.0 rpg, 9.0 apg, and on a .579 FG%. Oh, and he badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot his three opposing centers (he held Dierking to a .427 FG%, Russell to a .358 FG%, and Thurmond to a .343 FG%.)

In his very first playoff game, all he did was hang 41 points, which would be a Sixer high in the entire playoffs. He followed that up with a 37 point game. So, in his first two playoff games, he averaged 39.0 ppg on a .648 FG%. THAT will give you an idea of what THAT Chamberlain was capable of.

In his third playoff game, he went back to facilitating, and hung a 16-30-19 (yes 19 assists) game. Oh, and he had an estimated 20 blocked shots in that game, as well.

For that first round series, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%. Or a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES.

In the EDF's, and against RUSSELL, and his eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, he hung yet ANOTHER TRIPLE DOUBLE SERIES, which included a QUAD-DOUBLE game of 24-32-13-12. He outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outshot Russell from the field by a .556 to .358 margin; outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 to 6.0 apg; and outrebounded Russell, per game, by a 32.0 to 23.4 rpg margin. BTW, the Sixers outscored the Celtics in that series, per game, by a 121.2 to 111.2 ppg margin...or almost precisely what Chamberlain outscored Russell by.

Oh, and in the clinching game five win...while "post-season leading scorer" Greer scored 32 points on 12-28 from the field...Chamberlain overwhelmed Russell with a 29 point game (with 22 of them coming in the first half when the game was still close), on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, and 13 assists (and another seven blocked shots)...to Russell's 4 four points, on 2-5 shooting from the floor, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists.


Then, in the Finals, Chamberlain BURIED Thurmond with a 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.7 apg, .560 FG% Finals (to Nate's 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.7 apg.) How dominant was Wilt in that Finals? He outscored Thurmond in five of those six games; outrebounded Nate in five of those six games; outassisted Thurmond in five of those six games; and outshot Thurmond from the field in ALL six games.

And while "leading post-season scorer" Greer puked all over the floor in the clinching game six win, with a paltry 15 points on 5-16 shooting, Chamberlain slaughtered Thurmond by outscoring him 24-12, outshooting him by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin, and outrebounding him, 23-22.

BTW, Wilt outshot a PEAK Thurmond .560 to .343 in that Finals...which was interesting, since a PEAK Kareem had three straight post-season series against Thurmond in which he shot .486, .428, and get this... .405 (oh, and in this series, Thurmond outscored KAJ, 25.0 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot him, .437 to .405.)


Next time someone questions Wilt's "scoring" in the '67 post-season, you can now DESTROY them with the FACTS.

Wilt's '67 post-season run was easily one of the most dominant in NBA history.

Too bad guy couldn't win more rings huh? Always someone else's fault when he doesn't win but gets all the praise when he wins huh?

[SouBeachTalents]

Too bad guy couldn't win more rings huh? Always someone else's fault when he doesn't win but gets all the praise when he wins huh?

It doesn't matter that literally every season of his career his ppg declined from the regular season to the postseason, Wilt deserves absolutely no criticism for any of his defeats

[ClipperRevival]

KAJ in 1980 finals.

33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 4.6 bpg, 3.2 apg.

[ClipperRevival]

It doesn't matter that literally every season of his career his ppg declined from the regular season to the postseason, Wilt deserves absolutely no criticism for any of his defeats

Reg season - 30.1 ppg
Playoffs - 22.5 ppg
Finals - 18.7 ppg

You can look it up yourself. And was never the leading scorer in the finals when he won his 2 rings. And his lone fmvp in 1972, he was their 3rd leading scorer.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem's top3 all-time, with top5 GOAT peak.


Jordan never won without a great all-around SF.

Shaq and Wilt never won without a great SG.

Magic never won without Kareem.

Bird never won without a 16+/9+ center.

Duncan never won without Pop, a top3 GOAT coach.

LeBron never won without Wade.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:




Dirk's defense is better than KAJs

Some shit people say :facepalm

If DPOY was awarded back then, some players would definitely be less underrated on defense right now, some people will only look at stuff like that...
And Kareem would've won at least 2.

[ClipperRevival]

In fairness to Wilt, he was the GOAT rebounder if you don't consider size. And that's what Laz always mentions. But being clutch when it matters means more to me than grabbing a bunch of boards because you are a legit 7'1" without shoes, crazy wingspan, 290 lbs (later in his career) and crazy athleticism in his younger days.

[CavaliersFTW]

In fairness to Wilt, he was the GOAT rebounder if you don't consider size. And that's what Laz always mentions. But being clutch when it matters means more to me than grabbing a bunch of boards because you are a legit 7'1" without shoes, crazy wingspan, 290 lbs (later in his career) and crazy athleticism in his younger days.
The greatest rebounders in league history not named Wilt Chamberlain have all been between 6-5 and 6-10

If he never existed, the world would be convinced a player his size is at a handicap in rebounding. At least that's what all the other 7 footers that have existed would lead one to believe in comparison to guys like Barkely, Ben Wallace, Kevin Love, Dennis Rodman, Dwight Howard, Bill Russell, etc.

His huge 7 foot 1 inch frame is not gifting him those rebounds. He worked as hard and was as skilled as anyone at getting those boards.

[LAZERUSS]

In fairness to Wilt, he was the GOAT rebounder if you don't consider size. And that's what Laz always mentions. But being clutch when it matters means more to me than grabbing a bunch of boards because you are a legit 7'1" without shoes, crazy wingspan, 290 lbs (later in his career) and crazy athleticism in his younger days.

Chamberlain in his 23 must win playoff games...




Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds



That 31.1 ppg ranks third all-time, behind Lebron's 31.9 ppg and MJ's 31.3 ppg. And that .540 FG% came in post-seasons that shot .440 on average.





Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)




How about Wilt's post-season defense?




Wilt's post-season FG% allowed:

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .392
Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .294

Dierking regular season FG%: .365
Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .333

Russell regular season: .467
Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .446


60-61:

Kerr regular season: .397
Kerr vs Wilt: .321

Halbrook regular season: .335
Halbrook vs Wilt: .387


61-62:

Kerr regular season: .443
Kerr vs. Wilt: .376

Russell regular season: .457
Russell vs Wilt: .399


63-64:

Beaty regular season: .444
Beaty vs. Wilt: .520

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .386


64-65:

Embry regular season: .456
Embry vs Wilt: .438

Russell regular season: .438
Russell vs. Wilt: .446


65-66:

Russell regular season: .415
Russell vs. Wilt: .424


66-67:

Dierking regular season: .399
Dierking vs Wilt: .427

Russell regular season: .454
Russell vs. Wilt: .358

Thurmond regular season: .437
Thurmond vs. Wilt: .343


67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .541
Bellamy vs. Wilt: .421

Russell regular season: .425
Russell vs. Wilt: .440


68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .410
Thurmond vs Wilt: .392

Beaty regular season: .470
Beaty vs. Wilt: .383

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .397


69-70:

Walk regular season: .470
Walk vs Wilt: .395

Fox regular season: .524
Fox vs Wilt: .362

Bellamy regular season: .523
Bellamy vs Wilt: .456

Reed regular season: .507
Reed vs Wilt: .483


70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .485
Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .463

Fox regular season: .458
Fox vs Wilt: .434

Kareem regular season: .577
Kareem vs Wilt: .481


71-72:

Ray regular season: .499
Ray vs Wilt: .529

Kareem regular season: .574
Kareem vs Wilt: .457

Lucas regular season: .512
Lucas vs Wilt: .500


72-73:

Awtry regular season: .480
Awtry vs Wilt: .542

Thurmond regular season: .446
Thurmond vs Wilt: .373

Reed regular season: .474
Reed vs Wilt: .493



BTW, Julizaver's research has Wilt with 590 blocked shots in 82 post-season games (out of his 160)...which is considerably more than the "official" all-time leader, Tim Duncan's 555 in his 241 playoff games.

As far as rebounding goes, go ahead and throw out Chamberlain's massive totals. He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. And he was only outrebounded in one series, by PF Jerry Lucas, 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg, in a four game series. However, when the two would battle as centers, the 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outreebounded the 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin...which included a clinching game five margin of 29-9 (the entire NY team had 39 BTW.)

[LAZERUSS]

It doesn't matter that literally every season of his career his ppg declined from the regular season to the postseason, Wilt deserves absolutely no criticism for any of his defeats

In his "scoring" prime, from '59-60 thru '65-66, Chamberlain averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .505 FG% (in post-seasons that shout about .420 in that same span.)

Furthermore, he missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%.


And how come MJ's scoring and efficiency declined considerably against the "Bad Boys" in his four straight playoff series against them from '88 thru '91, and really considerably against the prime Pistons from '88 thru '90?

How come Shaq's scoring and efficiency dropped considerably against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '02 in the post-season?

And how come Kareem's scoring and efficiency fell off the cliff in his five post-season series against Thurmond and Wilt from '71 thru '73?

And yet, in Wilt's "scoring" prime, he faced Russell in 30 of his 52 playoff games, and in the decade of the '60's (and before he shredded his knee), he battled Russell and Thurmond in 61 of his 98 playoff games.


And how about this...


Psileas actually pointed this fact out long ago, but it is certainly worth repeating...

had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%




Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[Asukal]

BTW, Julizaver's research has Wilt with 590 blocked shots in 82 post-season games (out of his 160)...which is considerably more than the "official" all-time leader, Tim Duncan's 555 in his 241 playoff games.

As far as rebounding goes, go ahead and throw out Chamberlain's massive totals. He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. And he was only outrebounded in one series, by PF Jerry Lucas, 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg, in a four game series. However, when the two would battle as centers, the 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outreebounded the 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin...which included a clinching game five margin of 29-9 (the entire NY team had 39 BTW.)

Timmy played against better competition, today's average player have better shot selection compared to those in the 60's. Watch a wilt defense highlight video, you would :facepalm at those players trying to do a lay up right in wilt's face. Wilt's block total when taken into context isn't THAT impressive. :whatever:

[gcvbcat]

Kareem
Shakeel
Hakeem
Raheed
Rashad
Shareef
Mirza
Omar
Malik
Nazr
Jamal
Shahbaz
Mehmut
Rasul
Hedo
Raheem
Nooruddin
Mo
Sameer
Zidane....there are just too many of them.

All of these guys tend to get overrated. I wonder why, perhaps they should have a seperate league for people like them.

& btw, KG is also overrated.

[ClipperRevival]

The greatest rebounders in league history not named Wilt Chamberlain have all been between 6-5 and 6-10

If he never existed, the world would be convinced a player his size is at a handicap in rebounding. At least that's what all the other 7 footers that have existed would lead one to believe in comparison to guys like Barkely, Ben Wallace, Kevin Love, Dennis Rodman, Dwight Howard, Bill Russell, etc.

His huge 7 foot 1 inch frame is not gifting him those rebounds. He worked as hard and was as skilled as anyone at getting those boards.

Now you are saying Wilt's superior size and athleticism didn't help him? :oldlol:

First off, most NBA players aren't as big as Wilt. Few are 7'1" without shoes. The guy was a mammoth player, even by NBA standards. He also had a huge winspan, per your sources that you posted several time. You can't say that didn't help him get boards. And what separated him from the other guys his same height was that he was coordinated and had rare athleticism. So that just took him to another level in terms of getting boards.

[HurricaneKid]

In the NBA, he got drafted by a solid team and had the big O arguably a top 5 time player of all time at that point in the game.

This is INSANE.

The Big O was an all time great for the Royals. By the time he went to the Bucks he was 31 and hadn't been in the playoffs for the last three seasons. He was WAY past his prime by then. He was still a good player but he wasn't nearly the player he was or that you guys seem to be making him out to be.

If you are going to talk about 60s and 70s ball please have SOME idea of the best players of the age at the very least.

[Replay32]

Kareem overrated?

:facepalm

If anything, he's underrated. A lot of time he's forgotten about. All you have to do is look up his resume. His combination of team and individual success is on a GOAT level.

Best center of all time IMO.