Bird vs Bran at age 30

[JtotheIzzo]

http://i.imgur.com/FtiNkMB.jpg

better team
tougher conference
better era
better player

broken mic (from drop)

nothing left to say.

[Gileraracer]

Birds statline > any of LeBrons statlines

[FrenchDude]

Who in their right mind would take James over this version of Bird?:confusedshrug:

Sure LeBron is an all time great, amazing talent and one of the best athletic specimen of all time but Bird is just a better all around player, better leader and other players actually feared him. LeBron gets disrespected by role players...

[And1AllDay]

Birds statline > any of LeBrons statlines

No. And especially no when you adjust for pace. Fail.

[Gileraracer]

Who in their right mind would take James over this version of Bird?:confusedshrug:

Sure LeBron is an all time great, amazing talent and one of the best athletic specimen of all time but Bird is just a better all around player, better leader and other players actually feared him. LeBron gets disrespected by role players...

Roleplayers, Show some respect. Bran makes you FMVP whenever he wants.

[KembaWalker]

No. And especially no when you adjust for pace. Fail.

So rookie Bron over MVP Bird, kk :rolleyes:

[FrenchDude]

Roleplayers, Show some respect. Bran makes you FMVP whenever he wants.
:applause:

[JtotheIzzo]

Bird pushin trip-dub averages from the 3 spot, and dropping 28 a game while playing with 4 other HoFers.

That is some supreme Alpha shit right there.

[BigTicket]

This was a sub-par season for Lebron, so I would take Bird over him for the regular season.

Lebron was better than Bird in the playoffs though. They both lost in the finals to a 65+ win team, but Lebron did more for his team:

Bird: 27.0/10.0/7.0 on 48%FG (21.8 PER)

Lebron: 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 42%FG (25.3PER)

[BlakFrankWhite]

Wait....according to Kobe stans....regular season stats dont matter...except for Kobe's 36 ppg season ofcourse...and as a proud Kobe stan I concur to that.

Since LBJ outperformed Bird in the playoffs.

LbJ >> Bird

[Gileraracer]

Wait....according to Kobe stans....regular season stats dont matter...except for Kobe's 36 ppg season ofcourse...and as a proud Kobe stan I concur to that.

Since LBJ outperformed Bird in the playoffs.

LbJ >> Bird

Bird shot 6% better overall, nearly 12% better from 3pt line and 18% better from freethrow line.

Where did the bald one outperform him? In volume shooting yes (7,5 FGAs more per game which converted to 3ppg more), but thats it. Oh and in collecting bricks of course (most missed shots in finals history).

Honorable mentions: the one with the headband on top of his head had 4,1 TO per game, compared to Larrys 3.

[StephHamann]

Birds statline > any of LeBrons statlines

Also Bird's hairline > Lebron's hairline

[sdot_thadon]

I would take that reg. Season bird over this year's lebrin seeing as it was a down year for him.

That said, I can't see bird carrying that team through the playoffs the same way.

[Rocketswin2013]

I would take that reg. Season bird over this year's lebrin seeing as it was a down year for him.

That said, I can't see bird carrying that team through the playoffs the same way.
Ever.

LeBron's game will age better than bird's due to vastly superior durability.

Also, LeBron blows this guy away at younger ages. I would go into detail but I don't feel like it.

[kshutts1]

Ever.

LeBron's game will age better than bird's due to vastly superior durability.

Also, LeBron blows this guy away at younger ages. I would go into detail but I don't feel like it.
I think I disagree with everything you wrote, in some way.

Lebron's game will not age better. Bird, even very injured Bird, was pretty nasty later on, like 33-35. I'm not sure Lebron will be that effective at those same ages, simply because Lebron doesn't have the base skillset that Bird had. It's not a knock on Lebron to say that Bird was more skilled.

Lebron is more durable, or he has been thus far, anyway. That's one thing I agree with.

Lebron and Bird at young ages seem to be very similar, in that they both greatly impacted the team win/loss, and both took a bad team to a great team very quickly. Both were transcendent players early on.

Then, lastly, if you allude to evidence (I would go in to detail...), then refuse to show said "detail", that means you don't have any "detail".

[Derka]

Lebron will end up with a far more robust resume thanks to a few things.

1.) Incredible durability; you really can't take that away from the guy, he keeps himself in phenomenal shape. 12 pro seasons + 2 full seasons of playoff games and he's only 30 and showing no real signs of slowing down.

2.) Larry was a 23-year old rookie thanks to his wasted year at IU + a wasted year of no college in 75 + three years at ISU. Lebron was already five years into his career at 23.

[Bankaii]

Lol Bron's 2nd WORST statistical season other than his rookie year is comparable to Bird's 2nd BEST. That's how great Bron is.
And why not compare playoffs stats or Finals stats? I'll help you.
Bird: 27/10/7 on 48% 21.8 per.
Bron:30/11/9 on 42% 25.3 per.

Finals:
Bird: 24/10/6 on 45%.
Bron:36/13/9 on 40%.

The only difference is one had another FMVP type player and the other had Dellavedova.
**** your mic and bullshit agenda.

[sdot_thadon]

Lol Bron's 2nd WORST statistical season other than his rookie year is comparable to Bird's 2nd BEST. That's how great Bron is.
And why not compare playoffs stats or Finals stats? I'll help you.
Bird: 27/10/7 on 48%.
Bron:30/11/9 on 42%.

Finals:
Bird: 24/10/6 on 45%.
Bron:36/13/9 on 40%.

The only difference is one had another FMVP type player and the other had Dellavedova.
**** your mic and bullshit agenda.
Well that's another way of looking at it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bird's overrated-ness has me using hyperbole and I'm sort of underrating him.

[Derka]

Lol Bron's 2nd WORST statistical season other than his rookie year is comparable to Bird's 2nd BEST. That's how great Bron is.
And why not compare playoffs stats or Finals stats? I'll help you.
Bird: 27/10/7 on 48%.
Bron:30/11/9 on 42%.

Finals:
Bird: 24/10/6 on 45%.
Bron:36/13/9 on 40%.

The only difference is one had another FMVP type player and the other had Dellavedova.
**** your mic and bullshit agenda.

:lol No other Celtic in 84 or 86 was FMVP-caliber, HoFer or otherwise. Max in 81 was electric and totally deserved the MVP and he was terrific in Game 7 in 84 but unremarkable in the rest of that series. No one else was on Bird's level in those two series.

[andgar923]

SMH I was afraid this was gonna be a stat competition.

Stats don't tell the whole story tho.

Fact is, Bird can do everything better than Lebron and at times it aint close.

Passing Bird>Bron
Post up Bird>>> Bron
Shooting Bird>>>>Bron
The ever popular 'clutch' Bird>>>>Bron

The only thing that Bron has over Bird is defensive 'versatility'. What makes Bird an inferior defender (and it aint by much) is his lack of athleticism. Otherwise Bird>>> Bron as well. As it is, even that's debatable.

F*ck that stats because they're misleading.

Bird>>> Bron

[Bankaii]

:lol No other Celtic in 84 or 86 was FMVP-caliber, HoFer or otherwise. Max in 81 was electric and totally deserved the MVP and he was terrific in Game 7 in 84 but unremarkable in the rest of that series. No one else was on Bird's level in those two series.
I'm talking about the 86-87 season, where Bird was 30 as the thread implies.
Where McHale averaged:
RS: 26/9/3 on 60%
Playoffs: 21/9/2 on 58%
Finals: 21/9/2 on 59%.
FVMP caliber may have been a stretch but Both McHale and D. Johnson performed like HoF players.

[Bankaii]

The only thing that Bron has over Bird is defensive 'versatility'. What makes Bird an inferior defender (and it aint by much) is his lack of athleticism. Otherwise Bird>>> Bron as well. As it is, even that's debatable.
Go eat a snickers bar, you turn into a dumbass when you're not yourself, old man.

And Lebron>Bird as a passer.

[sdot_thadon]

SMH I was afraid this was gonna be a stat competition.

Stats don't tell the whole story tho.

Fact is, Bird can do everything better than Lebron and at times it aint close.

Passing Bird>Bron
Post up Bird>>> Bron
Shooting Bird>>>>Bron
The ever popular 'clutch' Bird>>>>Bron

The only thing that Bron has over Bird is defensive 'versatility'. What makes Bird an inferior defender (and it aint by much) is his lack of athleticism. Otherwise Bird>>> Bron as well. As it is, even that's debatable.

F*ck that stats because they're misleading.

Bird>>> Bron
Perimeter defense Lebron>>>Bird
Help defense Lebron>>Bird
Transition offense/defense Lebron>>>>>Bird
Penetration Lebron>>>Bird
Inside scoring Lebron> Bird
Athleticism Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>Bird
Defensive versatility Lebron>>>>>Bird
Missed quite a bit of things there.

[Gileraracer]

Perimeter defense Lebron>>>Bird
Help defense Lebron>>Bird
Transition offense/defense Lebron>>>>>Bird
Penetration Lebron>>>Bird
Inside scoring Lebron> Bird
Athleticism Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>Bird
Defensive versatility Lebron>>>>>Bird
Missed quite a bit of things there.

4th Quarter Bran <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bird

outside 3ft Bran <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bird



damn i can't even type those many <'s



oh... and:

Flopping Bran >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bird
statpadding Bran >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bird



Missed quite a bit of things there.

[andgar923]

Perimeter defense Lebron>>>Bird
Transition offense/defense Lebron>>>>>Bird
Athleticism Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>Bird
Defensive versatility Lebron>>>>>Bird
.

These are the only things that are arguable.

The only things that are a given are:

Athleticism
Defensive versatility
And perimeter defense

But transition is arguable even tho Bird was slow, he was just as dangerous.

And the 'only' reason that Bron even has an edge is due to his athleticism... that's all. Take that away and it's clearly Bird by a decent margin.

Bird was just simply better.

You're absolutely wrong on the rest.

[andgar923]

Go eat a snickers bar, you turn into a dumbass when you're not yourself, old man.

And Lebron>Bird as a passer.
:lol :lol

[raprap]

The underrating of Bron is getting ridiculous :oldlol:

I understand someone debating that Bird is a better player overall, but some of the guys here act like Bird is on another level. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

The underrating of Bron is getting ridiculous :oldlol:

I understand someone debating that Bird is a better player overall, but some of the guys here act like Bird is on another level. :oldlol:

Well he is :confusedshrug:

[Trollsmasher]

Bird is not really close to LeBron

Worse offensive stats even though he played in a fast paced, no D era and had better teammates for most of his career. What did good shooting do for him when he couldn't finish and his career efficiency is not close to that of LeBron?

Also net negative defensively

[Beastmode88]

Bird is not really close to LeBron

Worse offensive stats even though he played in a fast paced, no D era and had better teammates for most of his career. What did good shooting do for him when he couldn't finish and his career efficiency is not close to that of LeBron?

Also net negative defensively

You got that right: https://vine.co/v/OjW6rOneEdw

[#number6ix#]

Let's pretend like we're not comparing bird's 7th season and lebron's 11th

Lebron 7th season
29.7ppg/8.6ast/7.3rebs/50% shooting

[sdot_thadon]

These are the only things that are arguable.

The only things that are a given are:

Athleticism
Defensive versatility
And perimeter defense

But transition is arguable even tho Bird was slow, he was just as dangerous.

And the 'only' reason that Bron even has an edge is due to his athleticism... that's all. Take that away and it's clearly Bird by a decent margin.

Bird was just simply better.

You're absolutely wrong on the rest.

So let me get this straight, in your pure unbiased opinion:

-Lebron isn't a better help defender, despite the fact that he can cover way more of the floor much faster due to athletic advantages as you yourself said above.

-Lebron isn't a better penetrator, despite the fact that it's one of his all time level atributes. Again due to athletic advantages you stated above.

-Lebron isn't a better inside scorer, despite him being at absolute worst a top 3 wing finisher ever.......as well as stronger if you want to throw that major factor in as a minor tidbit.

[Trollsmasher]

You got that right: https://vine.co/v/OjW6rOneEdw
one vine vs years of data and thousands of words in various analyses:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: at using stats (Bird played with multiple HOFers and is arguably one of the most unselfish players of all-time), especially from the finals against the warriors - a team who defended and isolated LeBron on a ****ing island.

Bird, Kobe and Jordan would have eviscerated Iguodala.

While being one of the most efficient players in history, Bird was also better from midrange/long 2s/3PT, was a better passer, had better fundamentals (footwork) and more cerebral intangibles, especially down the stretch in games.

At their very best, against the other teams best, only a complete idiot would take LeBron over a healthy Larry Bird.

[Trollsmasher]

So let me get this steaight, in your pure unbiased opinion:

-Lebron isn't a better help defender, despite the fact that he can cover way more of the floor much faster due to athletic advantages as you yourself said above.

-Lebron isn't a better penetrator, despite the fact that it's one of his all time level atributes. Again due to athletic advantages you stated above.

-Lebron isn't a better inside scorer, despite him being at absolute worst a top 3 wing finisher ever.......
logic is too hard for him

if Bird is so much better shooter than LeBron and a better penetrator and inside scorer, why is his career TS% 1.5% below LeBron's both in RS and PS?

:lol

[Papaya Petee]

Lebrons 11th season vs Birds 7th

Yet Lebrons playoff numbers blow Birds out the water.

7th season Lebron was averaging 30/9/7 on 50% shooting.

Stupid agenda is stupid.

[RRR3]

:oldlol: at using stats (Bird played with multiple HOFers and is arguably one of the most unselfish players of all-time), especially from the finals against the warriors - a team who defended and isolated LeBron on a ****ing island.

Bird, Kobe and Jordan would have eviscerated Iguodala.

While being one of the most efficient players in history, Bird was also better from midrange/long 2s/3PT, was a better passer, had better fundamentals (footwork) and more cerebral intangibles, especially down the stretch in games.

At their very best, against the other teams best, only a complete idiot would take LeBron over a healthy Larry Bird.
So would LeBron in most circumstances. LOL @ using 15 LeBron as an indicator of him at his best

[Papaya Petee]

So would LeBron in most circumstances. LOL @ using 15 LeBron as an indicator of him at his best
The Kobe shit is comical to me. All I ever hear is how he'd destroy all these defenders but then I look at his final stats to realize he never destroyed anyone on the biggest stage. Aside from maybe Courtney Lee in 2009 where Kobe shot like 42% regardless.

[Gileraracer]

So would LeBron in most circumstances. LOL @ using 15 LeBron as an indicator of him at his best

39% FG 22% 3pt :lol

[RRR3]

http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/ArchieDuhOne425.jpg



http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/ArchieDuhtwo425.jpg



http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/ArchieDuhthree425.jpg

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So would LeBron in most circumstances. LOL @ using 15 LeBron as an indicator of him at his best

30 year old LeBron is past his prime now? Comical. :oldlol:

You LeBron fans are complete shit-heads (and this time I'm not trolling).

[RRR3]

30 year old LeBron is his past his prime now. Comical. :oldlol:

You LeBron fans are complete shit-heads (and this time I'm not trolling).
If you think LeBron shooting the way he did was normal based on his recent years, and that him not finishing at the rims and on post ups is commonplace, then ok.

[Trollsmasher]

30 year old LeBron is past his prime now? Comical. :oldlol:

You LeBron fans are complete shit-heads (and this time I'm not trolling).
that's pretty clear tho:biggums:

LeBron has logged more career minutes than both Magic and Bird by now, he is likely to start his decline sooner

His prime was from 09-13

get fugged, fvckface

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you think LeBron shooting the way he did was normal based on his recent years, and that him not finishing at the rims and on post ups is commonplace, then ok.

I think LeBron being past his prime at 30, the same year Kobe and Jordan had arguably some of their best seasons, is utterly ridiculous - and worth laughing at.

Bird was ~30 in 1986, BTW. His best season.

[Indian guy]

Bird, Kobe and Jordan would have eviscerated Iguodala.

Yeah, because they all have such fabulous histories of doing well against great defensive wings who were part of #1 ranked defensive teams :rolleyes:. And :oldlol: at anyone using the '15 Finals as some type of accurate representation of LeBron's ability or history as a basketball player. You're an idiot if you think any other ATG in LeBron's position would've fared any differently.


While being one of the most efficient players in history, Bird was also better from midrange/long 2s/3PT, was a better passer, had better fundamentals (footwork)

That's dandy, too bad it neither made him more efficient nor more productive on the basketball court. There are lots of centers who are more skilled than Shaq too, doesn't make 'em better. At the end of the day, anything that charts effectiveness/productivity on the basketball court points towards LeBron being the superior player. Even if it's an argument of portability and how Bird's skills supposedly made him the better fit on most teams, it's funny how the best offenses between 'em are still led by LeBron.

LeBron's just better. Better raw numbers. Annihilates Bird in advanced stats. Better team numbers. Much better playoff performer. When the gulf in statistics between 2 players is that significant and they both had similar team-success, fans of the trailing player need to just shut up and go home.

[RRR3]

Jordan was hitting .202 for the Birmingham Barons when he was 30. Pretty sure LeBron's 2015 season beats that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan was hitting .202 for the Birmingham Barons when he was 30. Pretty sure LeBron's 2015 season beats that.

Actually, Jordan averaged ~40ppg in the finals...efficiently.

Educate yourself.

[Gileraracer]

If you think LeBron shooting the way he did was normal based on his recent years, and that him not finishing at the rims and on post ups is commonplace, then ok.

Damn this Saruman Gandalf guy is on the balds side. Maybe last chance for Bran to get another ring

[RRR3]

Actually, Jordan averaged ~40ppg in the finals...efficiently.

Educate yourself.
He was 29 most of the year :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, because they all have such fabulous histories of doing well against great defensive wings who were part of #1 ranked defensive teams :rolleyes:. And :oldlol: at anyone using the '15 Finals as some type of accurate representation of LeBron's ability or history as a basketball player. You're an idiot if you think any other ATG in LeBron's position would've fared any differently.

Hey dumbass,

I used the '15 finals because the poster above me compared it to Bird's actual best.

Any perimeter player who can shoot worth a damn, that gets isolated inside the 3PT line the way LeBron was, would have been skinned alive.

You're completely deluded if you seriously think otherwise.

[RRR3]

By the 1993 Finals, Jordan had played 667 regular season games and 105 playoff games.


By the 2015 Finals, LeBron had played 911 games and 172 playoff games.


Not to mention Jordan was a better scorer in the first place, so not sure what the point is here.

[Indian guy]

So would LeBron in most circumstances. LOL @ using 15 LeBron as an indicator of him at his best

It's not even about '15 LeBron no longer being at his best. What truly matters is the position he was in - stuck on a 1st year team missing it's 2nd and 3rd best player, a 1st year coach and a roster devoid of a single playmaker beside his own self. All at the age of 30 against the league's best team that ranked #1 on both ends of the court to boot. Anybody who thinks Bird/MJ/Kobe wouldn't have stunk it up efficiency wise given the volume they would've had to undertake is an idiot. And no one would've struggled more so than Bird, because Cleveland needed an off the dribble playmaker more than anything.

[RRR3]

LeBron is usually much better shooter than he showed in the 15 playoffs, but we'll ignore that and act like he is the worst shooter ever.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its amazing the shit you hear about what other players would have done in the recent finals... thats all I've been hearing here on ISH, so I just checked out the latest b-ball magazine (leading one here), and was surprised to see how different and well received Bron's finals ACTUALLY are :lol

Almost forgot not everybody is as stupid, trying to plug random players into LeBron's place, leaving out the rebounding, playmaking, sheer garbage at his side and how completely they fell apart if he didnt have the ball in his hands or was off the court.

Cavaliers shot 6-of-25 from the field and 1-of-11 from 3-point range when LeBron James didn

[3ball]

Ever.

LeBron's game will age better than bird's due to vastly superior durability.

Also, LeBron blows this guy away at younger ages. I would go into detail but I don't feel like it.
newsflash to all hoops fans... SHOOTING ABILITY is what allows an aging player to remain competitive... nothing else.. That's why Kobe was still pretty good as an old player (when he was healthy)... ditto Bird... Obviously, ditto MJ and his amazing 50%+ shooting from mid-range.. Take away MJ's shooting, and he's literally HALF the player he was during his 2nd three-peat.

i'm licking my chops because bran can't shoot.. so he's gonna literally suck in a couple years when REALLY falls off and is just a big, bumbling player that can't get by anyone (he's already getting there).... All he'll have left is bully-ball on the post... it'll be fun to hear how much he sucks.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He was 29 most of the year :confusedshrug:

He was 30 for half of the season, nearly the same as LeBron.

You're not that desperate for a 2 month difference, I hope? :oldlol:

Jordan also played college ball, and was the best player, in all of his playoff series, from jump street.

[Trollsmasher]

why do people act like Bird was some kind of an extremly efficient player? His career TS is 56%, which is closer to Kobe than to the greats of efficiency like MJ, LeBron or Durant

for a 50/40/90 member, he only has two seasons above 60% TS, in a no D era:biggums:

[RRR3]

He was 30 for half of the season, nearly the same as LeBron.

You're not that desperate for a 2 month difference, I hope? :oldlol:

Jordan also played college ball, and was the best player, in all of his playoff series, from jump street.
Jordan was a better player, not sure what your point is. If you have to use the GOAT to make LeBron look bad, he must be pretty good.

[JtotheIzzo]

SMH I was afraid this was gonna be a stat competition.

Stats don't tell the whole story tho.

Fact is, Bird can do everything better than Lebron and at times it aint close.

Passing Bird>Bron
Post up Bird>>> Bron
Shooting Bird>>>>Bron
The ever popular 'clutch' Bird>>>>Bron

The only thing that Bron has over Bird is defensive 'versatility'. What makes Bird an inferior defender (and it aint by much) is his lack of athleticism. Otherwise Bird>>> Bron as well. As it is, even that's debatable.

F*ck that stats because they're misleading.

Bird>>> Bron

Whole lotta real talkin right there.

[red1]

This was one of bird's best seasons in his career and the worst regular season for lbj since the age of 24. Not really saying anything out of the ordinary.

[JtotheIzzo]

Bird is not really close to LeBron

Worse offensive stats even though he played in a fast paced, no D era and had better teammates for most of his career. What did good shooting do for him when he couldn't finish and his career efficiency is not close to that of LeBron?

Also net negative defensively

Fast paced no D era?

You are obviously a teenager, or simply ignorant as shit.

The 80s EC was rugged as fakk, it was wrestling nightly, none of this pansy, flopping matador shit that all the Eurof@gs brought over and made the norm.

The NBA today is like the WNBA compared to the Eastern Conference in the 80s.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan was a better player, not sure what your point is. If you have to use the GOAT to make LeBron look bad, he must be pretty good.

Well, I'm not the one who singled out Jordan - you did.

Nobody is saying LeBron isn't good, or ain't an ATG, so lets get that out of the way before any more jimmies are rustled.

[RRR3]

Well, I'm not the one who singled out Jordan - you did.

Nobody is saying LeBron isn't good, or ain't an ATG, so lets get that out of the way before any more jimmies are rustled.
Except you brought up Jordan by comparing him to LeBron :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

why do people act like Bird was some kind of an extremly efficient player? His career TS is 56%, which is closer to Kobe than to the greats of efficiency like MJ, LeBron or Durant

for a 50/40/90 member, he only has two seasons above 60% TS, in a no D era:biggums:

His 1986 season was better and more efficient than any of LeBron's.

The fact dude led his team past the Lakers is in-and-of-itself more impressive than anything LeBron has accomplished in his career.


Except you brought up Jordan by comparing him to LeBron :confusedshrug:

I brought up Jordan, Kobe and Bird.

Might want to read through the thread again, playboy.

[Indian guy]

Any perimeter player who can shoot worth a damn, that gets isolated inside the 3PT line the way LeBron was, would have been skinned alive.

Oh give me a ****ing break. Are 3ball's selective pics now the basis for judging how a team guarded LeBron now? Just because GS feared LeBron's passing and were thus reluctant to double much, doesn't mean he was on an "island". And the iso-approach was mostly a 1st half strategy anyway. In 2nd half of pretty much every game(after LeBron's big 1st), they went right back to the 'ol strong side overload defenses and not letting him turn the corner on any pick n roll.


You're completely deluded if you seriously think otherwise.

Nothing in their history points towards them doing well against elite wing defenders part of elite defensive teams. Especially not at LeBron's age. Jordan at 30 stunk it up against Starks and the #1 ranked Knicks in 1993. Same happened against the #1 ranked Sonics defense in the '96. Shot 39% against the #1 ranked Heat in '97. Bird has so many countless flameouts in the playoffs, I don't even know where to begin. Look up the '88 ECF against Rodman/Detroit. Averaged 20/12/6 on 35% shooting :oldlol:. Ouch. Kobe - '04 Pistons, '08 and '10 Celtics. Honestly, his efficiency isn't much to write about to begin with, but Kobe's playoff history against top ranked defensive teams outside the Spurs is horrible. And none of these players were missing their 2nd and 3rd best players during their respective suck-fests. I can only imagine how much more horrible their efficiency would be if they actually had to everything.

[RRR3]

Well, I'm not the one who singled out Jordan - you did.

Nobody is saying LeBron isn't good, or ain't an ATG, so lets get that out of the way before any more jimmies are rustled.

I brought up Jordan, Kobe and Bird.

Might want to read through the thread again, playboy.


:biggums:

[Trollsmasher]

His 1986 season was better and more efficient than any of LeBron's.

The fact dude led his team past the Lakers is in-and-of-itself more impressive than anything LeBron has accomplished in his career.
26 ppg on 58% TS and 26 ppg on 61% TS in the plaoffs... weak, kinda, especially compared to 27 ppg on 65% TS and 27 ppg on 67% TS in the playoffs

why am I even talking with retards who couldn't get past 2nd grade math anyway:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

I never directly compared LeBron to Jordan like you were doing this last page. Are you purposefully being dense?

[ArbitraryWater]

Indian guy, ALL of Bird's flameouts are glossed over :lol

Bird with that 4-17 23% Game 6 in the 1988 ECF loss/season ending game :bowdown:

[RRR3]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9619268&postcount=3

[RRR3]

Indian guy, ALL of Bird's flameouts are glossed over :lol

Bird with that 4-17 23% Game 6 in the 1988 ECF loss/season ending game :bowdown:
Don't forget that deadly rat-a-tat combo of 8, 8 and 12 games in the 1981 finals! :bowdown: The Sixers were so shook after Bird unleashed his deadly 9.3 PPG average in those 3 games that they just folded. :bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9619268&postcount=3

Like I said, unreasonably most of his opinions have changed over the last post-season...unsure why...

I also just recently saw a 2013 comment where he called 2013 LeBron one of the GOAT peaks and the best player since MJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

26 ppg on 58% TS and 26 ppg on 61% TS in the plaoffs... weak, kinda, especially compared to 27 ppg on 65% TS and 27 ppg on 67% TS in the playoffs

why am I even talking with retards who couldn't get past 2nd grade math anyway:roll:?

Bird won that Finals MVP and title shooting .551%eFG (better than TS% where LeBron got to shoot more freethrows).

Can you name ONE title run where LeBron shot better in the playoffs?

Look forward to your next post, young foreigner. :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Like I said, unreasonably most of his opinions have changed over the last post-season...unsure why...

I also just recently saw a 2013 comment where he called 2013 LeBron one of the GOAT peaks and the best player since MJ.

I don't have Larry and LeBron in different tiers, and LeBron actually has a realistic chance of having a Top 5 resume, but I don't and never will think dude was a better basketball player than Larry.

People change their opinions all the time. Especially in sports. I don't see what the big deal is.

[Indian guy]

Indian guy, ALL of Bird's flameouts are glossed over :lol

Bird with that 4-17 23% Game 6 in the 1988 ECF loss/season ending game :bowdown:

It's the running theme of all lost series' of his career, really. Whenever the Celtics lost, the primary reason was because Bird had really, really underperformed. '80, '82, '83, '85, '87-92. He just wasn't a very good postseason player. He was also the KING of losing series' with HCA. Of the 9 playoff series' he lost in his career, he had HCA in 7 of them. 7!!! LeBron's only been part of 3 such series and he still gets endless grief for it.

[red1]

I don't have Larry and LeBron in different tiers, and LeBron actually has a realistic chance of having a Top 5 resume, but I don't and never will think dude was a better basketball player than Larry.
Until the next time he wins a championship. Am I right?

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't have Larry and LeBron in different tiers, and LeBron actually has a realistic chance of having a Top 5 resume, but I don't and never will think dude was a better basketball player than Larry.

People change their opinions all the time. Especially in sports. I don't see what the big deal is.

becase it feels like simoultaneously you've grown a larger distain for him.


Until the next time he wins a championship. Am I right?

this is what I feel it will be like.. LeBron wins title, we will have alot of backtracking, and softer words, from other people who've become irrational towards Bron over time, Realist, andgar..

[Trollsmasher]

?

Bird won that Finals MVP and title shooting .551%eFG (better than TS% where LeBron got to shoot more freethrows).

Can you name ONE title run where LeBron shot better in the playoffs?

Look forward to your next post, young foreigner. :cheers:
ah, moving the goalposts, ain't we?

done with you, fvckboi

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Until the next time he wins a championship. Am I right?

It really depends, but assuming he plays at an elite level, I will have to move him up the ranks... An ATG leading a team to a title and playing REALLY REALLY good will sway anybodies opinion.

People saying otherwise are lying to themselves.

[RRR3]

This board is so different when LeBron wins compared to when he doesn't.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm waiving the white flag

I thought so, pipsqueak. :cheers:

[red1]

It really depends, but assuming he plays at an elite level, I will have to move him up the ranks... An ATG leading a team to a title and playing REALLY REALLY good will sway anybodies opinion.

People saying otherwise are lying to themselves.
he had an epic playoff run this year with a team that wasn't doing shit before him. guaranteed chip if he had one of Irving or Love. he did play REALLY REALLY good

[Lebronxrings]

now adjust birds' stats into a league where defense exists.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

becase it feels like simoultaneously you've grown a larger distain for him.

Career and resume don't necessarily equal better basketball player.

Some of you clowns who put him on a level he doesn't belong in...that's what I take issue with. Yeah he's still a Top 10 player who has an opportunity of building a Top 5 resume, but let it play out.

He can also lay dormant, for the rest of his career, at the bottom of the top 10... Again, it just depends on his play.


he had an epic playoff run this year with a team that wasn't doing shit before him. guaranteed chip if he had one of Irving or Love. he did play REALLY REALLY good

A healthy Cavs team should be favorites, IMO.

[ArbitraryWater]

I thought so, pipsqueak. :cheers:

you moved the goalpost. Suddenly free throws didn't apply to efficiency anymore.

Also:

LeBron has a higher FG%, eFG% and TS% than Bird in the regular season
LeBron has a higher FG%, eFG% and TS% than Bird in the playoffs

[ArbitraryWater]

Career and resume don't necessarily equal better basketball player.

Some of you clowns who put him on a level he doesn't belong in...that's what I take issue with. Yeah he's still a Top 10 player who has an opportunity of building a Top 5 resume, but let it play out.

He can also lay dormant, for the rest of his career, at the bottom of the top 10... Again, it just depends on his play.



A healthy Cavs team should be favorites, IMO.

not too long ago YOU were one of those 'clowns', having him as 2nd best player since MJ, over Shaq/Duncan/Kobe... now 2 years have passed and I'm supposed to believe he's once again firmly below them?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

not too long ago YOU were one of those 'clowns', having him as 2nd best player since MJ, over Shaq/Duncan/Kobe... now 2 years have passed and I'm supposed to believe he's once again firmly below them?

I don't remember ever saying he was better than Shaq. Can you provide a link for that?

I do think he's better than Duncan and most of the time, Kobe - but for nth time, career resumes is an entirely different subject.

2 years is a lot of time. 2 losses in the finals, one where he shot ~39% against single-coverage, isolation, while having miserable 4th quarters. Not a good look.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Stats only tell so much though, tbh.

---> Bottom line to me and the most important is that, prime vs prime, Bird's a better, more impactful overall player than LeBron, even if extremely close.

Not to mention that Larry couldn't care less about personal stats, dude was first and foremost about winning... For example, he was once 1 steal shy away from a quadruple-double already by the 4th quarter, in a blowout; and when coach ask him if he wanted to play, he said nah because the game was already in the bag.

[Derka]

This board is so different when LeBron wins compared to when he doesn't.
Isn't it hysterical? We need thread after thread justifying numbers when Lebron doesn't win a title to counteract all the stupid "2/6" threads. Everyone's got an agenda.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you moved the goalpost. Suddenly free throws didn't apply to efficiency anymore.

Also:

LeBron has a higher FG%, eFG% and TS% than Bird in the regular season
LeBron has a higher FG%, eFG% and TS% than Bird in the playoffs

Free throws do "apply", but with the soft rules of today, and the fact LeBron gets to shoot a lot more of them, I used eFG% for a better and more accurate representation of efficiency.

Bird had a greater and more efficient run in 1986...than any of LeBron's playoff runs.

Nobody that's taken seriously will put 2014 there with 1986 Bird. Same thing with 2009, who faced far less competition and lost a series he was heavily favored in.

[Young X]

The people acting like Bron isn't close to Bird are being foolish. Remove all the stupid narratives, remove the emotion and just look at what they both bring to their teams as players. Compare their best seasons. Compare their playoff runs. Compare their accolades. Compare their longevity. Bron is right there with Bird.

This is the disadvantage of playing in the social media era. It's easy to come up with narratives to discredit Bron because we've all been closely following every aspect of his career, we're constantly reminded of his failures and weaknesses. With Bird, since he played in the 80's, most people only remember his great moments because that's all we're reminded of. Nobody remembers his failures. Nobody remembers his terrible series against the '88 Pistons, nobody remembers his '87 finals against the Lakers, nobody remembers the Celtics getting swept by the Bucks, etc.

One thing I'll say though is Bird in his prime >> last season Bron. LOL @ people acting like Bird couldn't have carried that Cavs team to the finals. Who would've stopped them? The Hawks? The Bulls? We're talking about Larry f*cking Bird here.

[SouBeachTalents]

The people acting like Bron isn't close to Bird are being foolish. Remove all the stupid narratives, remove the emotion and just look at what they both bring to their teams as players. Compare their best seasons. Compare their playoff runs. Compare their accolades. Compare their longevity. Bron is right there with Bird.

This is the disadvantage of playing in the social media era. It's easy to come up with narratives to discredit Bron because we've all been closely following every aspect of his career, we're constantly reminded of his failures and weaknesses. With Bird, since he played in the 80's, most people only remember his great moments because that's all we're reminded of. Nobody remembers his failures. Nobody remembers his terrible series against the '88 Pistons, nobody remembers his '87 finals against the Lakers, nobody remembers the Celtics getting swept by the Bucks, etc.

One thing I'll say though is Bird in his prime >> last season Bron. LOL @ people acting like Bird couldn't have carried that Cavs team to the finals. Who would've stopped them? The Hawks? The Bulls? We're talking about Larry f*cking Bird here.

Agreed 100%, obviously applies to Kobe too. The double standards LeBron/Kobe face compared to all the other top 10 players, especially ones from the pre 2000's, are ridiculous

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Stats only tell so much though, tbh.

---> Bottom line to me and the most important is that, prime vs prime, Bird's a better, more impactful overall player than LeBron, even if extremely close.

Not to mention that Larry couldn't care less about personal stats, dude was first and foremost about winning... For example, he was once 1 steal shy away from a quadruple-double already by the 4th quarter, in a blowout; and when coach ask him if he wanted to play, he said nah because the game was already in the bag.

One of the most unselfish players of all-time, yet fanboys still want to draw H2H [statistical] parallels with someone who wears "check my stats" t-shirts. :lol

[RRR3]

One of the most unselfish players of all-time, yet fanboys still want to draw H2H [statistical] parallels with someone who wears "check my stats" t-shirts. :lol
"LeBron is the best SF ever" you literally consigned Drexler saying this.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't remember ever saying he was better than Shaq. Can you provide a link for that?

I do think he's better than Duncan and most of the time, Kobe - but for nth time, career resumes is an entirely different subject.

2 years is a lot of time. 2 losses in the finals, one where he shot ~39% against single-coverage, isolation, while having miserable 4th quarters. Not a good look.

2 losses in which he completely passes all blame :confusedshrug:

He shot 57% in 2014, 40% in 2015... twice Runner Up MVP, fabulous regular seasons and not ONE bad playoff series'.

Here

https://i.gyazo.com/936246caf97eabf502721ee9d2d1bcd1.png

[SHAQisGOAT]

Fast paced no D era?

You are obviously a teenager, or simply ignorant as shit.

The 80s EC was rugged as fakk, it was wrestling nightly, none of this pansy, flopping matador shit that all the Eurof@gs brought over and made the norm.

The NBA today is like the WNBA compared to the Eastern Conference in the 80s.


One of the most unselfish players of all-time, yet fanboys still want to draw H2H [statistical] parallels with someone who wears "check my stats" t-shirts. :lol

:applause: :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

2 losses in which he completely passes all blame :confusedshrug:

He shot 57% in 2014, 40% in 2015... twice Runner Up MVP, fabulous regular seasons and not ONE bad playoff series'.

Here

https://i.gyazo.com/936246caf97eabf502721ee9d2d1bcd1.png

That was in the regular-season; same time I co-signed that Drexler comment.
And after the 2012 year where dude had one of the greatest playoff runs of all-time (seriously).

His game and success hasn't translated into what I originally projected, though. I'll admit I jumped the shark, and was wrong. Very wrong.

[RRR3]

Here

https://i.gyazo.com/936246caf97eabf502721ee9d2d1bcd1.png

That was in the regular-season; same time I co-signed that Drexler comment.
And after the 2012 year where dude had one of the greatest playoff runs of all-time (seriously).

His game and success hasn't translated into what I originally projected, though. I'll admit I jumped the shark, and was wrong. Very wrong.
In other words LeBron was clearly on another level back then compared to his 2015 self. Glad you agree

[WindmiLL]

Comical. :oldlol:



What's comical is how you're getting literally eaten by Indian guy in this thread so you're just ignoring him and can't throw even 1 answer at him cuz he ate you alive with his posts. And you're acting like you don't see what he was posting :roll:

Fckin puss :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bron might technically get passes for 2014 and 2015, but he still gets flack for having miserable 4th quarters and shooting in the 30 percentile outside of the paint.

Looking like Shaq out in the perimeter. :oldlol:


In other words LeBron was clearly on another level back then compared to his 2015 self. Glad you agree

I agree that he was better. I'm not sure that he would fare better without a consistent jumper though... something he's more or less always lacked.

[ArbitraryWater]

Here

https://i.gyazo.com/936246caf97eabf502721ee9d2d1bcd1.png

That was in the regular-season; same time I co-signed that Drexler comment.
And after the 2012 year where dude had one of the greatest playoff runs of all-time (seriously).

His game and success hasn't translated into what I originally projected, though. I'll admit I jumped the shark, and was wrong. Very wrong.

Like what, didn't he wrap up that season as leading the league in spot up shooting and post ups? Then win title/fmvp? Then have another year of 27/7/6 on a career high 57% on a badly detoriating/aging team while continuing going up the ranks in the post and maintaining a high 3P% (38% on 4 attempts a game) and a finals where he shot 57% ?

Where exactly did you project him going, if not having a league wide top level jump shot, post-game, assists, and best scoring/efficiency combination without one bad playoff series?

[RRR3]

Bron might technically get passes for 2014 an 2015, but he's still gets flack for having miserable 4th quarters and shooting in the 30 percentile outside of the paint.

Looking like Shaq out in the perimeter. :oldlol:
And he looked like Ray Allen on the perimeter in the 14 playoffs :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's comical is how you're getting literally eaten by Indian guy in this thread so you're just ignoring him and can't throw even 1 answer at him cuz he ate you alive with his posts. And you're acting like you don't see what he was posting :roll:

Fckin puss :oldlol:

Wait what? Who are you? lol

I've already quoted a post of his. What the **** are you talking about? :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Bron might technically get passes for 2014 and 2015, but he still gets flack for having miserable 4th quarters and shooting in the 30 percentile outside of the paint.

Looking like Shaq out in the perimeter. :oldlol:



I agree that he was better. I'm not sure that he would fare better without a consistent jumper though... something he's more or less always lacked.
Jumper was pretty consistent in 2014 playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And he looked like Ray Allen on the perimeter in the 14 playoffs :confusedshrug:

I think that's a stretch, but I do value consistency.

One year "looking like Ray Allen" and in the next, like Shaq...is a bit....strange. Don't you think?

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron might technically get passes for 2014 and 2015, but he still gets flack for having miserable 4th quarters and shooting in the 30 percentile outside of the paint.

Looking like Shaq out in the perimeter. :oldlol:

Not too long ago I posted a bunch of horrible Kobe playoff clutch performances, which you don't seem to care much about..

LeBron hardly played a minute in the 2014 finals 4th quarters, due to 3 blowouts and one cramp.

In 2015 he averaged 46 MPG, insanely high amount of ball carrying, 10+ rebounds and 9 assists, no offensive/scoring help and you honestly wonder why he was burned out in the 4th quarters?

My god if there ever was a time to apply this 'context' thing

[RRR3]

I think that's a stretch, but I do value consistency.

One year "looking like Ray Allen" and in the next, like Shaq...is a bit....strange. Don't you think?
It's strange. But acting like 2015 LeBron is indicative of the quality of a shooter he has become is disingenuous

[colts19]

Don't forget that deadly rat-a-tat combo of 8, 8 and 12 games in the 1981 finals! :bowdown: The Sixers were so shook after Bird unleashed his deadly 9.3 PPG average in those 3 games that they just folded. :bowdown:

Had you watched those 3 games, and if you had a brain while watching them you would have noticed a couple things.

Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird wins by 23
Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird loses by 5
Bird scores 12 at Boston and Bird wins by 27

Hello Dumb*** they won 2 of 3 games by a average of 25 points. Context does matter.

Of course be a Lebron fan you only look at the stats not the results. Bird did what he had to do for his team to win, Lebron has to ball hog and hope someone hits a kick out jump shot, out of rhythm becaue Lebron pounded the air out of the ball for 20 seconds.

Basketball is a game of skill, player and ball movement. Lebron is nowhere close to bird in understanding that.

[RRR3]

Had you watched those 3 games, and if you had a brain while watching them you would have noticed a couple things.

Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird wins by 23
Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird loses by 5
Bird scores 12 at Boston and Bird wins by 27

Hello Dumb*** they won 2 of 3 games by a average of 25 points. Context does matter.

Of course be a Lebron fan you only look at the stats not the results. Bird did what he had to do for his team to win, Lebron has to ball hog and hope someone hits a kick out jump shot, out of rhythm becaue Lebron pounded the air out of the ball for 20 seconds.

Basketball is a game of skill, player and ball movement. Lebron is nowhere close to bird in understanding that.
Madder than a bull in a rose garden :oldlol:


Like LeBron wouldnt get shat on for doing the same thing, context be damned.

[ArbitraryWater]

Had you watched those 3 games, and if you had a brain while watching them you would have noticed a couple things.

Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird wins by 23
Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird loses by 5
Bird scores 12 at Boston and Bird wins by 27

Hello Dumb*** they won 2 of 3 games by a average of 25 points. Context does matter.

Of course be a Lebron fan you only look at the stats not the results. Bird did what he had to do for his team to win, Lebron has to ball hog and hope someone hits a kick out jump shot, out of rhythm becaue Lebron pounded the air out of the ball for 20 seconds.

Basketball is a game of skill, player and ball movement. Lebron is nowhere close to bird in understanding that.

:roll:

Bird's magical 8 points where what the Celtics needed :bowdown:

You ****s are pathetic

[colts19]

Madder than a bull in a rose garden :oldlol:


Like LeBron wouldnt get shat on for doing the same thing, context be damned.

Not by anyone who understand the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not too long ago I posted a bunch of horrible Kobe playoff clutch performances, which you don't seem to care much about..

LeBron hardly played a minute in the 2014 finals 4th quarters, due to 3 blowouts and one cramp.

In 2015 he averaged 46 MPG, insanely high amount of ball carrying, 10+ rebounds and 9 assists, no offensive/scoring help and you honestly wonder why he was burned out in the 4th quarters?

My god if there ever was a time to apply this 'context' thing

Playing 46 MPG doesn't give him a pass for being all-time bad in 4th quarters. I'm sorry that I have higher expectations for a Top 10 player than you do. :lol

BTW, I have pointed out Kobe's anti-clutch moments a number of times on this board. You've even taken pictures of my posts saying his 'greatest clutch player alive' legend is hearsay and mostly myth.

:confusedshrug:

[colts19]

:roll:

Bird's magical 8 points where what the Celtics needed :bowdown:

You ****s are pathetic

Maybe it was his magical rebounding and ball movement.

[RRR3]

Not by anyone who understand the game.
The point is Bird isn't scrutinized the same way.

[tpols]

And he looked like Ray Allen on the perimeter in the 14 playoffs :confusedshrug:

true, but in 2014 bron took half as many shots in the midrange 3-16 ft. It was all rim runs and 3s on low volume. In 2015 when forced to take a much higher amount of midrange shots and higher shot volume in general his efficiency just nosedived.

prioritizing individual efficiency at the expense of going all out when your team needs it is not a good thing.. at all

[Hey Yo]

http://i.imgur.com/FtiNkMB.jpg

better team
tougher conference
better era
better player

broken mic (from drop)

nothing left to say.
The above is LeBron's 12th season in the league

Bird's 12th season:
60 games played
19.4ppg
8.5TRB
7.2 Assists
45.4 FG%
19.7 PER

[ArbitraryWater]

Playing 46 MPG doesn't give him a pass for being all-time bad in 4th quarters. I'm sorry that I have higher expectations for a Top 10 player than you do. :lol

BTW, I have pointed out Kobe's anti-clutch moments a number of times on this board. You've even taken pictures of my posts saying his 'greatest clutch player alive' legend is hearsay and mostly myth.

:confusedshrug:

since you keep saying this and I wanted to know the truth behind it..

https://i.gyazo.com/ab9d893dee296520f3a0b3eae70d807b.png

yeah, I TRULY doubt that counts as 'all time bad'... thats a narrative you've pushed though.

https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/photo.jpg

now thats bad... I'm sure you consider this.

[Hey Yo]

Maybe it was his magical rebounding and ball movement.
Bird had great ball movement but in the Finals he didn't have to rely on back-ups, made starters, like Scott Wedman, Jerry Sichting and Greg Kite the whole series due to injuries.

[red1]

true, but in 2014 bron took half as many shots in the midrange 3-16 ft. It was all rim runs and 3s on low volume. In 2015 when forced to take a much higher amount of midrange shots and higher shot volume in general his efficiency just nosedived.

prioritizing individual efficiency at the expense of going all out when your team needs it is not a good thing.. at all
this was a better finals series then all of kobe's...

[colts19]

Bird had great ball movement but in the Finals he didn't have to rely on back-ups, made starters, like Scott Wedman, Jerry Sichting and Greg Kite the whole series due to injuries.

True and I don't blame LeBron for this years loss, because I think they would have won, had they not had those injuries. I do think they would have had a better chance if they had kept playing Mozgov instead of sitting him after he scored 28 points in a game so Lebron would have more room to operate. Coaches decision I know, but since Lebron is the coach too he could have changed that.

[tpols]

this was a better finals series then all of kobe's...

2015 finals exposed the ugly truth hat lebron's efficiency is more variable and prone to extreme relative collapse than just about any other top 25 GOAT...


We don't have the numbers for bird but eye test tells us he's deadly from any spot on the floor where as Lebron is an awful shooter 3-16 ft from the rim leaving a major exploitable zone in his offensive arsenal.

Bron could avoid this dead zone so to speak when his offensive help was stacked by cherry picking only 3s and layups but when forced and basically served on a silver platter, a bunch of midrange shots his game and efficiency will fall apart*




*see 07, 11, 13, and 15 finals.. 12 was an anomaly because scottie brooks is a total dumbass and let lebron do exactly what he wanted.. pop/kerr/Carlisle are actually intelligent and able to see the gaping hole

[red1]

2015 finals exposed the ugly truth hat lebron's efficiency is more variable and prone to extreme relative collapse than just about any other top 25 GOAT...


We don't have the numbers for bird but eye test tells us he's deadly from any spot on the floor where as Lebron is an awful shooter 3-16 ft from the rim leaving a major exploitable zone in his offensive arsenal.

Bron could avoid this dead zone so to speak when his offensive help was stacked by cherry picking only 3s and layups but when forced and basically served on a silver platter, a bunch of midrange shots his game and efficiency will fall apart*




*see 07, 11, 13, and 15 finals.. 12 was an anomaly because scottie brooks is a total dumbass and let lebron do exactly what he wanted.. pop/kerr/Carlisle are actually intelligent and able to see the gaping hole
they didn't lose this year because of some gaping in hole in his game. they lost because they were undermanned, plain and simple. brons offense was fine. and how can you give pop credit for 2013 when it didnt work? got lit up in the series deciding game.

[sdot_thadon]

2015 finals exposed the ugly truth hat lebron's efficiency is more variable and prone to extreme relative collapse than just about any other top 25 GOAT...


We don't have the numbers for bird but eye test tells us he's deadly from any spot on the floor where as Lebron is an awful shooter 3-16 ft from the rim leaving a major exploitable zone in his offensive arsenal.

Bron could avoid this dead zone so to speak when his offensive help was stacked by cherry picking only 3s and layups but when forced and basically served on a silver platter, a bunch of midrange shots his game and efficiency will fall apart*




*see 07, 11, 13, and 15 finals.. 12 was an anomaly because scottie brooks is a total dumbass and let lebron do exactly what he wanted.. pop/kerr/Carlisle are actually intelligent and able to see the gaping hole
See, this is the funny business. 2015 exposed the ugly truth about how losing 2nd and 3rd options for the finals can impact a stars output. It had the most to do with developing a particular playstyle all season long, then having to go in a complete opposite direction for the majority of and especially the most important round of the playoffs.

The 07 finals were quite similar in a way being that his cast was likely worse than what he trotted out this year in the finals. Lone offensive threat against the best team in the league, for the championship. Yeah that sounds easy right?

Hold 2011 against him all you want, I agree whatever the reason may be he shat the bed that year.

His jumper has been way more steady over these last few years than previous seasons. In 2012 he lost it midway through the playoffs but wouldn't be denied that year. 2013 he was above average, 2014 he was excellent. 2015 seems to be about learning a new comfort zone, I'm sure he'll be back to form next season. He went from getting really great and disciplined rhythm looks in spo's offense to going back to 2010 and before. Everything happening from the top of the key again, far less rhythm shots. Too many heat checks. Far less looks created by others for him from out there too.

Context fellas.

[305Baller]

Of course LeBron had better stats in the finals, he didnt have any reliable teammates.

[ArbitraryWater]

2015 finals exposed the ugly truth hat lebron's efficiency is more variable and prone to extreme relative collapse than just about any other top 25 GOAT...


We don't have the numbers for bird but eye test tells us he's deadly from any spot on the floor where as Lebron is an awful shooter 3-16 ft from the rim leaving a major exploitable zone in his offensive arsenal.

Bron could avoid this dead zone so to speak when his offensive help was stacked by cherry picking only 3s and layups but when forced and basically served on a silver platter, a bunch of midrange shots his game and efficiency will fall apart*




*see 07, 11, 13, and 15 finals.. 12 was an anomaly because scottie brooks is a total dumbass and let lebron do exactly what he wanted.. pop/kerr/Carlisle are actually intelligent and able to see the gaping hole

you mean to tell me what for LeBron is "collapse" is Kobe's CAREER?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/bc314819903d065b3f34cdd72e23ab75/tumblr_nfgngjY7X31rud800o1_500.gif

Dang, LeBron 2012, 2012, 2013, 2015 really better than any Kobe finals ever huh :bowdown:

Basically anything outside the anamoly that was 2011.

[red1]

you mean to tell me what for LeBron is "collapse" is Kobe's CAREER?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/bc314819903d065b3f34cdd72e23ab75/tumblr_nfgngjY7X31rud800o1_500.gif

Dang, LeBron 2012, 2012, 2013, 2015 really better than any Kobe finals ever huh :bowdown:

Basically anything outside the anamoly that was 2011.
which he overcame like a boss by winning back to back with a worse team :applause:

[RRR3]

which he overcame like a boss by winning back to back with a worse team :applause:
Bran got these hatuhz madder than Donald Trump in a wind tunnel :oldlol:

[West-Side]

To be fair, if you consider that Bird was a better shooter than Jordan; you can also make a claim that 87' Bird was better than any version of Jordan too, no?

[Rocketswin2013]

To be fair, if you consider that Bird was a better shooter than Jordan; you can also make a claim that 87' Bird was better than any version of Jordan too, no?
Yeah...If you ignore actual production and talk about shit like playoff competition and shooting then Dirk should be top 3, minimum.

If your reasoning for ranking one guy over the other, can't stay consistent and bring logical results, your logical is simply shit.

[tpols]

His jumper has been way more steady over these last few years than previous seasons. In 2012 he lost it midway through the playoffs but wouldn't be denied that year. 2013 he was above average, 2014 he was excellent. 2015 seems to be about learning a new comfort zone, .

In 2013 he shot 31% on jumpers in the midrange zone.. and was completely baffled/shook when Pop denied him his rim opportunities and conceded shots in the only range he wasn't comfortable taking shots in. His shooting was not above average that year because he could be funneled into a big range where his efficiency was quite poor



2014 he was good but he shot waaay less midrange shots than either 2013 or 2015 in an attempt to keep his efficiency stable.. this low volume approach was ultimately bad for the team, and selfish I might add.. Its just like 2011 where he shot 48%, sure his efficiency wasn't bad but its only because he wasn't even taking the shots his team needed him to take.. he was sitting back and only taking the surefire opportunities as they popped up instead of imposing his will like what was needed.







To be fair, if you consider that Bird was a better shooter than Jordan; you can also make a claim that 87' Bird was better than any version of Jordan too, no?

Jordan is one of the best midrange shooters of all time.. one of the best finishers of all time, and if you dared him into his weak zone forcing him to shoot 3s he wouldn't shy away or shrivel up.. hed blast you into infinity.

There is no spot on the floor MJ couldn't kill you from so this comparison is completely non analogous.

[Rocketswin2013]

which he overcame like a boss by winning back to back with a worse team :applause:
This is an overlooked aspect of LeBron's back-to-back title runs. He went through a good bit of adversity and consistently delivered. Hakeem/Jordan-esque big game player.

Bosh was out vs a top 10 defense in Indiana, and most of the Celtics series against probably the best defense in the postseason in Boston, and he just destroyed them and played his best in pivotal games (IND Game 4: 40/18/9/2/2) (BOS Game 6: 45/15/5) His worse series in 2012 was against a great defense(believe it or not) in the Knicks and he coasted due to blowouts and still murdered them.

Wade was good in the 2012 playoffs but nothing special. Bosh was good..when he played.

In 2013 they were even worse in the playoffs and LeBron just carried them. Even in the Spurs series he impacted every part of the game and his defense was still great in that postseason(sans a couple of games in the pacers series).


2014 he was good but he shot waaay less midrange shots than either 2013 or 2015 in an attempt to keep his efficiency stable.. this low volume approach was ultimately bad for the team, and selfish I might add.. Its just like 2011 where he shot 48%, sure his efficiency wasn't bad but its only because he wasn't even taking the shots his team needed him to take.. he was sitting back and only taking the surefire opportunities as they popped up instead of imposing his will like what was needed.
Jesus Christ. Way to make a narrative on an entire season through shooting splits. And this doesn't even make sense. He didn't shoot well from the midrange area. So him shooting from there more is what they would've needed?

You're also the first person I've ever seen come up with this theory and I highly doubt you've watched many 2014 Miami Heat games.

[swagga]

In 2013 he shot 31% on jumpers in the midrange zone.. and was completely baffled/shook when Pop denied him his rim opportunities and conceded shots in the only range he wasn't comfortable taking shots in. His shooting was not above average that year because he could be funneled into a big range where his efficiency was quite poor



2014 he was good but he shot waaay less midrange shots than either 2013 or 2015 in an attempt to keep his efficiency stable.. this low volume approach was ultimately bad for the team, and selfish I might add.. Its just like 2011 where he shot 48%, sure his efficiency wasn't bad but its only because he wasn't even taking the shots his team needed him to take.. he was sitting back and only taking the surefire opportunities as they popped up instead of imposing his will like what was needed.


Jordan is one of the best midrange shooters of all time.. one of the best finishers of all time, and if you dared him into his weak zone forcing him to shoot 3s he wouldn't shy away or shrivel up.. hed blast you into infinity.

There is no spot on the floor MJ couldn't kill you from so this comparison is completely non analogous.

maybe with the shortened line.

[tpols]

I've watched all heat playoff games 2011 through 2014. my posts are littered throughout the GTs. And it's not a narrative dude.. it's what happened. More midrange shots will plummet brons efficiency and they are the most dependable shots.. 3s and layups aren't attained nearly as easily.


And yes bron should've took more but actually made them.. like Larry or Michael would have. That's whose being compared here... that's the standard, I'm sorry you don't like it

[SHAQisGOAT]

maybe with the shortened line.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Michael-Jordan-Shrug-After-3-Pointer.gif

[SHAQisGOAT]

Madder than a bull in a rose garden :oldlol:


Like LeBron wouldnt get shat on for doing the same thing, context be damned.

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Larry's Celtics actually WON the series, while LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a game.

Both about the same age but Bird was a sophomore.

Bird scored 7 less PPG but on much better efficiency (even it not being good enough), and LB rebounded WAY better, was above in terms of playmaking, averaged considerably more steals, hustled much more, was much clutcher (one who closed out the series)...

Wanna talk about teammates? Boston was one of the very worst teams in the league just 2 years previously... Roster being about the same with Cowens gone and Parish to replace him (already 27, not viewed as much), McHale was a rookie not doing all that, with a new coach in Bill Fitch.
So, give credit where credit is due.

2007 Spurs were easily better than the 1981 Rockets, yea, BUT the 1981 76ers were just as good as those Spurs, the best team throughout the regular-season in 1981 with MVP Julius Erving... And Bird put up 26.7 / 13.4 / 4.6 on 48.6%FG/55.4%TS for that series, leading the Celtics over a 3-1 deficit.
^Stuff like that shits on anything LeBron did in the 2007 Playoffs.

Anyways, just to say that you see people(mostly dumb haters) shitting on Bird's 1981 Finals more than on LeBron's 2007 Finals, even with everything I've mentioned above considered.

[sdot_thadon]

In 2013 he shot 31% on jumpers in the midrange zone.. and was completely baffled/shook when Pop denied him his rim opportunities and conceded shots in the only range he wasn't comfortable taking shots in. His shooting was not above average that year because he could be funneled into a big range where his efficiency was quite poor

So, the best coach in the league and the best player in the league playing a game of chicken basically is your best argument? He didn't want pop and the spurs to dictate his opportunities, he even said as much going into the series. It wasn't working out, but it did in the end. So using a victory as some sort of black eye is laughable. Game 7 shut all that talk down.
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/NPtSojoUXdQzzidIoxsoSw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTUwMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2013-06-23/44b3e51d-d59d-4336-9f24-dbc3f3a0f9b4_LeBron_webgame7.gif


2014 he was good but he shot waaay less midrange shots than either 2013 or 2015 in an attempt to keep his efficiency stable.. this low volume approach was ultimately bad for the team, and selfish I might add.. Its just like 2011 where he shot 48%, sure his efficiency wasn't bad but its only because he wasn't even taking the shots his team needed him to take.. he was sitting back and only taking the surefire opportunities as they popped up instead of imposing his will like what was needed.
2014 was likely his peak offensive season of his career. Wtf are you talking about? Wasn't that the season he was the best or 2nd best catch and shoot player in the entire league? You are basically talking down because he shot his best shots the most? Novel concept.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

since you keep saying this and I wanted to know the truth behind it..

If you wonder why I "keep saying this", maybe because its a fact?

http://s7.postimg.org/szo9zv2mj/23232.png



And your favorite, the last 5 minutes of a game, up/down by 5.

http://s16.postimg.org/inifa9g79/22222222222222222222.png

Ayyy :biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's strange. But acting like 2015 LeBron is indicative of the quality of a shooter he has become is disingenuous

But, he's always been a streaky jumpshooter. :confusedshrug: Acting like that hasn't been the case is what's disingenuous.



Jordan is one of the best midrange shooters of all time.. one of the best finishers of all time, and if you dared him into his weak zone forcing him to shoot 3s he wouldn't shy away or shrivel up.. hed blast you into infinity.

There is no spot on the floor MJ couldn't kill you from so this comparison is completely non analogous.

this x1000

[sdot_thadon]

But, he's always been a streaky jumpshooter. :confusedshrug: Acting like that hasn't been the case is what's disingenuous.
He has been but to say he hadn't turned it around recently is just as disingenuous....


Jordan is one of the best midrange shooters of all time.. one of the best finishers of all time, and if you dared him into his weak zone forcing him to shoot 3s he wouldn't shy away or shrivel up.. hed blast you into infinity.

There is no spot on the floor MJ couldn't kill you from so this comparison is completely non analogous.


this x1000
They often dared Mj to shoot outside shots iirc. Everyone uses gifs from one half of basketball to represent jordan's entire career from the 3. Wide open shots that show they were daring him to shoot them too. He hit them on that occasion just the same way lebron did in the biggest game of his career.

[Doranku]

since you keep saying this and I wanted to know the truth behind it..

https://i.gyazo.com/ab9d893dee296520f3a0b3eae70d807b.png

yeah, I TRULY doubt that counts as 'all time bad'... thats a narrative you've pushed though.

https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/photo.jpg

now thats bad... I'm sure you consider this.

u really wanna play this game fckboy?

http://i.imgur.com/I2KIDul.png
http://i.imgur.com/V7yYpbZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/GujUOrK.png
http://i.imgur.com/vl24SI4.png

[Kvnzhangyay]

Bird's 1981 Finals > LeBron's 2007 Finals

Larry's Celtics actually WON the series, while LeBron's Cavs didn't even win a game.

Both about the same age but Bird was a sophomore.

Bird scored 7 less PPG but on much better efficiency (even it not being good enough), and LB rebounded WAY better, was above in terms of playmaking, averaged considerably more steals, hustled much more, was much clutcher (one who closed out the series)...

Wanna talk about teammates? Boston was one of the very worst teams in the league just 2 years previously... Roster being about the same with Cowens gone and Parish to replace him (already 27, not viewed as much), McHale was a rookie not doing all that, with a new coach in Bill Fitch.
So, give credit where credit is due.

2007 Spurs were easily better than the 1981 Rockets, yea, BUT the 1981 76ers were just as good as those Spurs, the best team throughout the regular-season in 1981 with MVP Julius Erving... And Bird put up 26.7 / 13.4 / 4.6 on 48.6%FG/55.4%TS for that series, leading the Celtics over a 3-1 deficit.
^Stuff like that shits on anything LeBron did in the 2007 Playoffs.

Anyways, just to say that you see people(mostly dumb haters) shitting on Bird's 1981 Finals more than on LeBron's 2007 Finals, even with everything I've mentioned above considered.

The only double standard I see is that Lebron gets so much criticism for an 8 point game in the 2011 finals (which he def deserves; he choked the series away), but people forget that Larry had 2 straight 8 point games, if I recall correctly (My memory is meh, wasn't that hardcore into sports back then, and its been a while...)

Also, Lebron DID average 26/9/9 vs the Pistons on 44.9% shooting, 54% TS, which isn't as good as Bird's, but is definitely in the same ballpark, considering the defense and how low-scoring each of the games were. (The Celtics in that series averaged 104.1 ppg, while Detroit averaged 86)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He has been but to say he hadn't turned it around recently is just as disingenuous....

Not really. He was terrible outside the paint in 2012, and the Spurs dared him to shoot in 2013 (worked for most of the finals) - this past season, dude reverted back to his old ways, and was horrific from 10-23 feet.

He's still streaky, and inconsistent.


They often dared Mj to shoot outside shots iirc. Everyone uses gifs from one half of basketball to represent jordan's entire career from the 3. Wide open shots that show they were daring him to shoot them too. He hit them on that occasion just the same way lebron did in the biggest game of his career.

Nowhere close to the disrespect the Spurs and Warriors had for LeBron's shot. Apples and oranges.

As pointed out, Mike was the superior shooter from just about everywhere on the court save from 3. LeBron was inefficient the ENTIRE playoffs outside of 10 feet, hence GS defending him, alone, on an island, just outside the 3PT line.

[KevinNYC]

I like LeBron. I like Larry. Basketball mattered to me, way, way more when I watched Larry. Some thoughts
Max in 81 was electric and totally deserved the MVPI disagree with this and, for what it's worth so does Bill Fitch. If Maxwell had played great for 6 games, I would agree, but he didn't. He had two poor shooting games including a very close game where if he had played just average, the Celtics would have won in 5. The only thing he did better than Bird was shoot efficiency. Bird was all over the court and had a great series for assists and steals and a monster series for rebounds. In the days before the term "triple-double" was used Bird averaged had in that Finals had had three near triple doubles. 15 rpg and 7 apg in the NBA finals is still unmatched since 1981.
Lebron>Bird as a passer.I Lebron is a flashier passer, but not a better one. Two thing stood out for Bird as a passer, the quickness with which he made decisions and putting the pass right on target. John Havilcek said that you watch Bird you see always made the right play at the right more often than any player in history. I like LeBron as a passer, but this is one of the place, I see a clear gap between them.
Help defense Lebron>>Bird This surprises me. Bird was a fantastic help defender. People who didn't see him play underestimate this. What LeBron has in terms of elite athleticism, Bird has in elite anticipation. Anyone better in the NBA ever at seeing where the play was going?
Transition offense/defense Lebron>>>>>Bird I think you need to separate offense and defense. Lebron is a much better transition defender, the chase down block isn't really in Bird's arsenal, but he was absolutely elite transition offense player. He was great at the break especially when you include his passing. The Celtics were a fast break team and one the best ever. This argument seems to be a style issue because I don't remember Bird getting stopped on a lot of breaks and I remember him starting tons of them.
https://youtu.be/rgPpTvX86n8?t=601
https://youtu.be/rgPpTvX86n8?t=443
https://youtu.be/4XFkg9r5_mk?t=75
https://youtu.be/-enOYqF5Kwo?t=227
https://youtu.be/rgPpTvX86n8?t=64
https://youtu.be/rgPpTvX86n8?t=422
Inside scoring Lebron> BirdThis one seems to be another sytle question. Yes, Bird wasn't playing above the rim, but he was fantastic inside. Always seemed to be able to get his shot off.

And the 'only' reason that Bron even has an edge is due to his athleticism... that's all.Seems pretty silly to ignore athleticism in basketball. This is a pretty big "only." It's like saying Bird can only make all those left handed shots or runners because of his coordination. It's a pretty big deal.
Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird wins by 23
Bird scores 8 at Houston and Bird loses by 5
Bird scores 12 at Boston and Bird wins by 27
Bird's magical 8 points where what the Celtics needed

You ****s are patheticIn the 23 point win, Bird also had 13 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals.
In the 5 point loss, Bird had 12r, 7a and 2s
In the 29 point win Bird had 12r 8a, and 0s
so three near triple doubles. Bird has monster game 1 and was one assist from from triple double.

The best player for the Celtics in the 1981 Finals was

Game 1 Bird
Game 2 Bird
Game 3 toss up
Game 4 Maxwell
Game 5 Maxwell
Game 6 Bird.

In the toss up game Maxwell had
19 p, 10 r, 0a, 0s

and Bird had
8 p, 13r, 10a, 5s

In terms of LeBron and Bird, I do think you have to adjust for pace when looking at LeBron's stats.

[greatest-ever]

Comparing them at age 30 is silly being Lebron came in the league at age 18 and Bird was 21 or so.

[Rocketswin2013]

I've watched all heat playoff games 2011 through 2014. my posts are littered throughout the GTs. And it's not a narrative dude.. it's what happened. More midrange shots will plummet brons efficiency and they are the most dependable shots.. 3s and layups aren't attained nearly as easily.


And yes bron should've took more but actually made them.. like Larry or Michael would have. That's whose being compared here... that's the standard, I'm sorry you don't like it
Untrue. I'm absolutely exhausted so I won't go into detail but untrue. You basically saying LeBron James didn't do enough for Miami offensively is just incredibly stupid btw. No offense.

[Lebron23]

Comparing them at age 30 is silly being Lebron came in the league at age 18 and Bird was 21 or so.


Bird was actually 23 yrs.old when he made his NBA Debut. Terrible thread BTW. Lebron already played more games than Bird, and more mileage on his body.