How good was Elvin Hayes?

[ClipperRevival]

At his peak (1969 - 1972 - 4 years), he was giving you 27.4 ppg and 16.3 rpg.

He made 3 finals and won 1 and you can seriously argue he deserved the fmvp over Unseld in 1978 when he averaged more than 10 ppg over Unseld.

12 time all star. 3 All-NBA 1st team selections and 3 All-NBA 2nd team selections.

Career: 21.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg.
Playoff: 22.9 ppg, 13.0 rpg.

He started his career as a C but played mostly PF the rest of his career.

Where do you rank him all time and as a PF?

[SHAQisGOAT]

As far as PF's I think he has to be ranked just below Timmy, Malone, KG, Dirk, Chuck and Pettit (and just above McHale)... So, 7th greatest PF ever.
I say that that would make him like a top40 all-time player.

Many times he wasn't very efficient but still was a very good scorer; could hit some jumpers, take it inside or to the post well, had a good turnaround J, scored some off of putbacks, won fouls and wasn't a bad FT shooter...

He was a very good and very well conditioned athlete.
Really physical player and a great rebounder.
Great defensive player as well.
Not a good nor a willing passer though, could become a shotjacker too.
Also had great longevity.

He's not one of the VERY BEST but still one of the great ones and I think he gets underrated plenty, even if he was a bad teammate many times.

He definitely deserved FMVP over Unseld (even Bobby D deserved it more), that's Elvin's FMVP in my book... Most places outside of Washington dude was hated on like a mf'er though, because many say he was just a big time asshole, even in the locker-room.

If DPOY was awarded back then I also think Elvin would've been the best choice in 1975... Yet he wasn't even voted for the 1st all-defensive team (not that 2nd all-defensive selections never won DPOY though).

[ClipperRevival]

As far as PF's I think he has to be ranked just below Timmy, Malone, KG, Dirk, Chuck and Pettit (and just above McHale)... So, 7th greatest PF ever.
I say that that would make him like a top40 all-time player.

Many times he wasn't very efficient but still was a very good scorer; could hit some jumpers, take it inside or to the post well, had a good turnaround J, scored some off of putbacks, won fouls and wasn't a bad FT shooter...

He was a very good and very well conditioned athlete.
Really physical player and a great rebounder.
Great defensive player as well.
Not a good nor a willing passer though, could become a shotjacker too.
Also had great longevity.

He's not one of the VERY BEST but still one of the great ones and I think he gets underrated plenty, even if he was a bad teammate many times.

He definitely deserved FMVP over Unseld (even Bobby D deserved it more), that's Elvin's FMVP in my book... Most places outside of Washington dude was hated on like a mf'er though, because many say he was just a big time asshole, even in the locker-room.

If DPOY was awarded back then I also think Elvin would've been the best choice in 1975... Yet he wasn't even voted for the 1st all-defensive team (not that 2nd all-defensive selections never won DPOY though).

That's pretty high up.

Why do you think Unseld won the FMVP over him? There had to be some reason for it. Unseld was the 7th leading scorer in that finals for the Bullets, which is unbelievable if you think about it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

That's pretty high up.

Why do you think Unseld won the FMVP over him? There had to be some reason for it. Unseld was the 7th leading scorer in that finals for the Bullets, which is unbelievable if you think about it.

Think that he's ranked well that way, where he should be.


Mostly 2 reasons:

-Hayes fouled out with only 12 points scored in the decisive game7. He was not much of a factor at all in that clinching game.
Plus that also served as a "reminder" to his previous Playoffs failures.

-Many say Elvin was an asshole even a bad teammate, so he was hated on by most outside of DC, unlike Wes.


Unseld's impact definitely goes beyond stats though (like in that game7), and ofc that one needs to watch the games before talking about stats and such... But I still think Hayes should've won it and if not, Bob Dandridge should've got it because he was playing at a higher level than Wes and was very good in game7.

[iamgine]

I don't think he was very good at all. His 27.4 ppg was misleading due to him playing so many minutes and shooting below league average. For example, unknowns like Dave Bing, Geoff Petrie and Lou Hudson all outscored him per 36 minutes with better FG%. And those are guards! Rebounds are nice though when you're a center and miss as much as him rebounds should be plenty!

[bizil]

Before Barkley and Malone came around, he was arguably the best PF peak wise of all time. GOAT wise, I would say Petitt was the GOAT PF before Barkley and Malone came around. But the Big E was right there at #2. GOAT wise currently, I think u he's in the 7-8 range. Peak wise, I think he's likely in that same neighborhood.

I DO THINK the Big E revolutionized the PF position. Before him, u didn't see guys with his blend of power, skill, and athletic ability at the PF. From there, I think Malone's style of play took what guys like Petit and Hayes did to the next level. All three were PURE PF's.

The guys like Barkley, Dirk, and KG had SF traits big time. So much so their secondary position often in their careers was SF. All three played some SF early in their careers. A guy like Duncan had a dominant center's size and skillset. So the guys like Hayes were TRUE PF's (size, skillset) who might play some center.

[senelcoolidge]

The Big E is an all time great. When you look at his field goal percentage it makes you question how good that guy was, but hey he was a shot jacker as stated already. He was an undersized Center at 6'9" his first 4 seasons in the league. So he faced the likes of Wilt, Kareem, Bellamy, Thurmond, among others and put up impressive numbers. He was a very athletic forward. He knew how to position himself for caroms. He could really defend. He had an impressive turn around jumper. He's a certified great player no question. He was just not liked, he had a poor reputation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMMKJKnF3x4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SXvG5EGRX0
small doc on the Big E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhoupzVHl50
one of cavsFTW's clips

[Horatio33]

A choke artist of Wilt Chamberlain magnitude.

[JellyBean]

At his peak (1969 - 1972 - 4 years), he was giving you 27.4 ppg and 16.3 rpg.

He made 3 finals and won 1 and you can seriously argue he deserved the fmvp over Unseld in 1978 when he averaged more than 10 ppg over Unseld.

12 time all star. 3 All-NBA 1st team selections and 3 All-NBA 2nd team selections.

Career: 21.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg.
Playoff: 22.9 ppg, 13.0 rpg.

He started his career as a C but played mostly PF the rest of his career.

Where do you rank him all time and as a PF?

Elvin Hayes was, during the 70s, one of the greats. He had that unstoppable turn around jumper. He sucked as a passer though. I know he could rebound like crazy. It is sad how this man gets over looked in the history of the game. Where do I rank Big E all time among PFs? On my list of all-time great power forwards, I have him #10:

1). Tim Duncan
2). Karl Malone
3). Charles Barkley
4). Dirk Nowitzki
5). Kevin Garnett
6). Kevin McHale
7). Dennis Rodman
8). Chris Webber
9). Bob Pettit
10). Elvin Hayes

[La Frescobaldi]

Elvin Hayes was, during the 70s, one of the greats. He had that unstoppable turn around jumper. He sucked as a passer though. I know he could rebound like crazy. It is sad how this man gets over looked in the history of the game. Where do I rank Big E all time among PFs? On my list of all-time great power forwards, I have him #10:

1). Tim Duncan
2). Karl Malone
3). Charles Barkley
4). Dirk Nowitzki
5). Kevin Garnett
6). Kevin McHale
7). Dennis Rodman
8). Chris Webber
9). Bob Pettit
10). Elvin Hayes

JellyBean is one of the top 5 All-Time Boss of Ish.

[Round Mound]

Malone over Barkley :facepalm

[kshutts1]

1). Tim Duncan
2). Karl Malone
3). Charles Barkley
4). Dirk Nowitzki
5). Kevin Garnett
6). Kevin McHale
7). Dennis Rodman
8). Chris Webber
9). Bob Pettit
10). Elvin Hayes
:biggums:

[ClipperRevival]

Malone over Barkley :facepalm

What's wrong with putting Malone over Barkley? Malone had greater longevity, has 1 more MVP and went to 1 more finals. Both came up short when it mattered in the playoffs. And their peaks were similar.

[LAZERUSS]

Hayes was a center in his first four seasons in the league, and he gave guys like Russell, Thurmond, and Wilt fits in those years. He had a season against Wilt in which he averaged 31 ppg against him, and in that same season, he badly outplayed Thurmond while scoring 28 ppg against him (he outshot Nate .484 to .385.)

He was skilled enough to move to the PF position after that.

Of course, the greatest game of his career occurred in college, when, in his senior season, he led his undefeated and #2 Houston Cougars, to a 71-69 win over the previously unbeaten and #1 UCLA Bruins (with their 47 game winning streak at the time), in a game in which he shelled a partially blind Alcindor (Kareem) with 39 points and 15 rebounds.

Alcindor got his revenge, though, in the NCAA semis, in which he destroyed Hayes, in leading the Bruins to a 101-69 win, which was staggering enough, but UCLA actually had a 44 point lead mid-way thru the second half.

[swagga]

Malone over Barkley :facepalm

really close, malone has the better career, barkley the (very slightly) better peak. factor in defense and you putting a :facepalm there makes you an irrational stan :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

That's pretty high up.

Why do you think Unseld won the FMVP over him? There had to be some reason for it. Unseld was the 7th leading scorer in that finals for the Bullets, which is unbelievable if you think about it.

Saw these guys on reel to reel so just a bit more than what's on youtube now. I watched playoff games and I recall Unseld's game much more than Hayes. Unseld was very unique. He and Cowens made their teammates hustle more and more responsible to their roles. Not just heart and soul guys but "we can do it" leaders. Without Unseld they don't compete at a high level. The balloon would deflate if Unseld went to the bench.

I remember regarding Hayes as more prolific, less stylistic Connie Hawkins or Spencer Haywood. But my father liking the local guys might have been my influence then.

[AirFederer]

Kind of black hole with skills.
Not your ideal teammate...

[ClipperRevival]

Saw these guys on reel to reel so just a bit more than what's on youtube now. I watched playoff games and I recall Unseld's game much more than Hayes. Unseld was very unique. He and Cowens made their teammates hustle more and more responsible to their roles. Not just heart and soul guys but "we can do it" leaders. Without Unseld they don't compete at a high level. The balloon would deflate if Unseld went to the bench.

I remember regarding Hayes as more prolific, less stylistic Connie Hawkins or Spencer Haywood. But my father liking the local guys might have been my influence then.

Reading this thread and a bit on him on the Internet, he seemed like he wasn't the best teammate. He had attitude issues and was sort of a black hole. Another reason why stats aren't the be all, end all. You can put up empty stats.

Winning involves playing the game the right away. The true superstars can not only get theirs but also elevate the level of their teammates by attracting the double and setting them up for easy shots. And they can find the right balance between scoring and getting teammates involved. They are constantly evaluating what the teams needs within the flow of the game and do what is best for the team. Sometimes that means taking over offensively when the offense is stagnant and sometimes, it means getting others involved. That's true greatness and only a handful of players have ever reached that level.

[Round Mound]

What's wrong with putting Malone over Barkley? Malone had greater longevity, has 1 more MVP and went to 1 more finals. Both came up short when it mattered in the playoffs. And their peaks were similar.

:no:

Steve Nash has 2 MVPs Shaq Has 1 Was He Better Than Shaq?

Allen Iverson Has a Higher PPG Avg Than Kobe Was He A Better Scorer Than Kobe?

Barkley Was Way More Dominant Than Malone When Chuck Was Healthy. Longevity Is Not A Skill. All Broken Down Stats Have Barkley Over Malone Too.

[ClipperRevival]

:no:

Steve Nash has 2 MVPs Shaq Has 1 Was He Better Than Shaq?

Allen Iverson Has a Higher PPG Avg Than Kobe Was He A Better Scorer Than Kobe?

Barkley Was Way More Dominant Than Malone When Chuck Was Healthy. Longevity Is Not A Skill. All Broken Down Stats Have Barkley Over Malone Too.

That's a laymans analogy. Barkley might've had the slightly higher peak but it is perfectly fine to rank Malone ahead of him.

[JellyBean]

:biggums:


My list. Create your own my friend.

[JellyBean]

Malone over Barkley :facepalm

Come on, now. Karl was a better player than Sir Charles. Karl was better than Sir Charles on both sides of the court.

[Lebron23]

Top 6 pf in nba history

[tontoz]

Good player but he relied heavily on a fadeaway jumper in the post so his efficiency wasn't great. Not the most popular guy with teammates.

[warriorfan]

He wasn’t very interested in the Great Wall of China.

[Whoah10115]

The black hole thing is what I remember as far as his greatness. Different from, say, Carmelo. Carmelo was a damn good rebounder but Hayes did work and bagged a ton. Plus he was an elite defender.

Offensively, he was not as pure a scorer as Carmelo, but he did a bit less in a vacuum.