All MJ myths busted (for reference)

[3ball]

.
1) MJ would struggle because today's defenders can play halfway (zone)

Zone isn't allowed in the paint - defenders can't play halfway in the paint, due to the defensive 3 seconds rule.. To remain inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area, defenders must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet).. "Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Here's detail on the NBA's policy on paint defense (today's defensive 3 seconds rule compared to previous era's no-spacing and resulting legal paint-camping):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606624&postcount=406



2) Today's defenders can flood from weakside to strongside

The strongside flood is only necessary when there are actual defenders on the weakside to flood over, which doesn't occur without today's weakside spacing.. In today's game, every team places multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on the weakside to draw defenders away from the strongside, thus spacing the entire halfcourt - weakside spacing is a staple of every team's offensive strategy today.

However, the 80's didn't have 3-point shooting to space the floor - weakside spacing didn't exist and defenders didn't need to occupy the weakside - all defenders remained on the strongside and/or in the paint, eliminating the need to flood.

Here's further detail on spacing and weakside spacing:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606684&postcount=408


Here's a comparison of strongside scenarios - with weakside spacing, and without:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606688&postcount=410



3) Previous eras put guys behind the 3-point line to draw defenders out there

This never happened except maybe rare, one-off exceptions.. Understand that there was no spacing in the 80's - that's a fact - so there's no value in bringing up rare exceptions.. Rare exceptions of spacing don't CHANGE the fact that previous eras didn't have spacing, they PROVE it.

There simply isn't a counterargument to the claim that spacing makes today's game easier - obviously, it's not a valid counterargument to say "well, the 80's were spaced too".


Appendix of related counterarguments on this topic:

Here's the problem new fans have when comparing how hard it was to score in different eras - they assume that new defensive schemes in today's game make it harder to score than previous eras, period... This view doesn't consider spacing at all, even though the presence of spacing impacts what defensive schemes are NEEDED to have an effective defense... For example, we know that today's weakside spacing necessitates strongside flooding... (this even sounds as correct and intuitive as it actually is).

(btw, some people argue that the strongside flood came FIRST, and spacing was a response to combat the new flooding technique.. This makes no sense - not only have high volumes of 3-pointers been around for many years, but the strongside flood is only necessary when there are actual defenders on the weakside to flood over, which doesn't occur without weakside spacing)

If new defensive schemes made it harder to score, league-wide ORtg would plummet - but it hasn't - it's remained between 105-108 since the inception of the 3-point line, and it was at 108 as recently as 2011.. I've said it for years - if you put NBA-caliber players on a basketball court, they will play a certain caliber of defense that remains pretty consistent regardless of continuing regulatory changes and playing adjustments on both sides of the ball - this is why we don't see material changes in league-wide ORtg over the years.



4) Today's defensive tactics take away post play




today's post efficiency has gone down


This is a massive misconception by the dumb media - but here's the reality - it's a mathematical fact that without 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen rolls/drive-and-kick plummets and becomes not worthwhile compared to post-ups.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.

Another way we know that post efficiency hasn't declined is because today's best post players still achieve elite PPP on the post (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time) (and they're inferior post players to previous eras).



5) Today's defenders can double team the post before the ball gets there.

Doubling the post before the ball gets there is an extremely obvious move that leaves someone wide open - it prevents a post player from catching it, but that's only a consideration in today's game because the spacing gives players too much time and room to operate once they catch it... The spacing and further distance of help defenders makes today's post players too dangerous when they catch the ball.

Otoh, when there isn't spacing and help defense is much closer, a team is better off NOT compromising their defense by doubling early and leaving someone wide open.. The lack of spacing made previous eras better-equipped to handle a post player that has the ball.

Btw, when a post player is doubled without the ball in today's game, it's usually a halfway double, which is the same distance a help defender would be if there was no spacing...


The big picture of post defense with and without spacing:

As you can see, spacing puts defenses in a "pick your poison" situation: allow a post player to catch the ball and have a ton of time/room to operate, or double early to prevent the catch and leave someone wide open?.. Otoh, defenses in previous eras didn't need to double early because the lack of spacing made them better equipped to handle a post player that has the ball.

Spacing puts defenses in a similar quandry regarding flooding - weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, so defenses must chose: allow the penetrator to face less strongside defenders by NOT flooding, or flood and leave someone open on the weakside?.. Again, defenses in previous eras didn't have to worry about flooding because without weakside spacing, defenders were already on the strongside.


Common counterarguments on this topic:

People will counter by saying that doubling before the ball gets there reduces ACTUAL post scoring - this is meaningless because it doesn't reduce post scoring nearly as much as no-spacing and legal paint-camping... Remember, teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's - instead, coaches foolishly positioned players closer to the basket, which activated the league's legal paint-camping provision... Legal paint-camping reduces scoring in the paint more than ANY defensive tactic... It's amazing anyone could advocate for today's paint defense when defensive 3 seconds keeps the paint clear at all times, while previous eras had no spacing, which resulted in legal paint-camping.. It's pretty ridiculous.


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6) Lebron is better at making bad teams good than MJ


We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" he faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
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[Uncle Drew]

Didn't read.

[20Four]

http://i.imgur.com/oULKMfx.gif

[Smoke117]

1-9, had to be carried by Pippen vs the Knicks in 93.

[JohnMax]

http://i.imgur.com/oULKMfx.gif

Kyrie-esque

[Spurs m8]

Mate...anyone who knows the game and/or were around in the 90s knows MJ was the best.

Calm down champ

[HighFlyer23]

You have Jordan's feces smeared all over your face, ph@ggot

[SouBeachTalents]

6. Jordan won all of his championships by himself and never had a good teammate or coach

[ShawkFactory]

Didn't even come close to reading.

[SpecialQue]

You're a weird dude. You've devoted your internet life to creating huge paragraphs defending a player who there is near universal agreement on/acclaim for. If anything, your constant hardcore stanning has actually created MJ haters here. So congratulations on failing.

Then again, I suspect you're secretly an MJ-hater and this was your goal all along, so maybe you succeeded?

[Smoke117]

You're a weird dude. You've devoted your internet life to creating huge paragraphs defending a player who there is near universal agreement on/acclaim for. If anything, your constant hardcore stanning has actually created MJ haters here. So congratulations on failing.

Then again, I suspect you're secretly an MJ-hater and this was your goal all along, so maybe you succeeded?

Whether this is true or not really doesn't matter...anybody who puts this much time into something so inconsequential just has massive issues, period.

[DonDadda59]

The Luca Brasi of the Jordan Family. Loyal, Ruthless... Relentless. :applause:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/94/4f/a5944f47fcfb71ef38e1727e397d8d96.jpg

[Spurs m8]

I imagine some of these posters deadset having deep NBA issues IRL hahaha

[Da KO King]

This forum has gotten really strange over the last few years.

[3ball]

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Previous era's paint-camping vs. today's flooding


Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court.. If big men could still camp under the rim while out of "armslength" of their man, that would be preferable to today's flooding, which requires the big man to leave the rim unprotected and contest guards outside the paint - extra rotations are necessary since the weakside is left a man down.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of Illegal Defense Guidelines).. Paint camping is a more equitable way to defend the court, since it doesn't leave the weakside a man down or require extra rotations, while protecting the rim better.

Ultimately, the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed over the eras - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there's no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
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[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/oULKMfx.gif



great example - teams didn't shoot 3-pointers back then, so the weakside was never spaced, as your GIF shows.

4 defenders are on the strongside, with 1 more in the paint - so all 5 defenders are on the strongside and/or in the paint - no flood needed... standard procedure of course - see point #2 in the OP.
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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/B_wITa.gif


MJ's 1993 Finals was particularly impressive because he showed that very high volume (33 fga) at good efficiency CAN keep up with a juggernaut offense and squeak by for the win.

In those Finals, both teams remarkably averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg (see those bballref stats here), so every ounce of MJ's 41/9/6 on 51% was needed.. It was baaarely enough to keep up with the Suns, despite also getting 21/9/8 from Pippen (his best-ever Finals), 14 ppg from Armstrong, and Grant's standard 11 ppg.. Certainly, if MJ had shot 39% instead of 51%, the Bulls would've probably been swept.

Otoh, compare that with Lebron's 2015 Finals - he shot 3% but still won two games - surely, he would've won the series easily if he shot 51% - he wouldn't have even needed to squeak by like MJ did.. Lebron has no excuse for the poor shooting because he was never doubled like MJ was, and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.. But the statistical reality is that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume because he's bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting - you can't get 33 fga on all 3-and-D.

Btw, the 2015 Finals ended any questions about whether the Heat could've won in 2014 if Lebron had shot more - we know that he simply can't maintain his efficiency at very high volumes.. 39% wouldn't have beat the Spurs either.

Of course, there's no danger in letting Lebron shoot 39%, so Lebron's inability to have good efficiency at high volume allowed the Warriors to permit his secluded 1-on-1 clearouts all series long without bothering to take the ball out of his hands.

Lebron's lack of midrange ability didn't just prevent him from good efficiency at high volumes and subsequent double-teams, but it prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when midrange was the primary option remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

[SpecialQue]

great example - teams didn't shoot 3-pointers back then, so the weakside was never spaced, as your GIF shows.

4 defenders are on the strongside, with 1 more in the paint - so all 5 defenders are on the strongside and/or in the paint - no flood needed... standard procedure of course - see point #2 in the OP.

http://happyandhumble.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/james-spader-pretty-in-pink.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

great example - teams didn't shoot 3-pointers back then, so the weakside was never spaced, as your GIF shows.

4 defenders are on the strongside, with 1 more in the paint - so all 5 defenders are on the strongside and/or in the paint - no flood needed... standard procedure of course - see point #2 in the OP.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EBd7287jDtM/URAIQnWo2NI/AAAAAAAAJPE/beSszRgeI2c/s1600/zombieland.gif

[I<3NBA]

every single post, you make ISH less worth reading.

damn it man. we know MJ is the GOAT. please stop it!

btw, the Bulls were stacked during the 2nd 3peat.

no team can defeat the holy trinity.

[iTare]

great example - teams didn't shoot 3-pointers back then, so the weakside was never spaced, as your GIF shows.

4 defenders are on the strongside, with 1 more in the paint - so all 5 defenders are on the strongside and/or in the paint - no flood needed... standard procedure of course - see point #2 in the OP.
https://i.gyazo.com/79656cec168dfbb90a55f150df76e6b9.png

[Gileraracer]

40ppg average easily nowadays

[NBAplayoffs2001]

http://i.imgur.com/oULKMfx.gif

Wasn't even a foul. Today it would be a technical and a fine.

[nzahir]

1-9
TLDR
Coming from the guy who discredits scottie, rodman, grant, and other very good role players such as kukoc, kerr, paxon, armstrong, longley, harper nothing here matters

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Yeah 3 ball calm with this stuff lol. Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF.

[nzahir]

Yeah 3 ball calm with this stuff lol. Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF.
Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact

Bulls ruined our chances of making the NBA finals in 1993 too :(. Could have made the 1997 finals too if we beat them in the playoffs :(. 4 lost NBA finals appearance in the 1990s :cry:. Born in NYC but destroying the dreams of its fan, oh Jordan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bulls ruined our chances of making the NBA finals in 1993 too :(. Could have made the 1997 finals too if we beat them in the playoffs :(. 4 lost NBA finals appearance in the 1990s :cry:. Born in NYC but destroying the dreams of its fan, oh Jordan.

Knicks lost to the Heat in '97

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Knicks lost to the Heat in '97

Oh oops. Forgot about that. Then let's just say one more Finals appearance lol, 1993.

[ralph_i_el]

#1 is obviously false. 2.9ing....you don't have to stay anywhere near your man. If he comes within arms reach, the 3 seconds reset, and if you step out of the paint, 3 seconds reset. You can spend 95% of a possession in the paint everytime. That's why 3 point shooting is at such a premium, because without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, teams can cram the paint.

Op posts gifs of packed paints from other eras, but those guys are in the paint guarding another player, not the ball handler. Half those Jordan .gifs have guys in the paint who aren't even looking at MJ.

OP likes to post LeBron .gifs with open paint....but that's because every team that LeBron has played for for 4 years now has had tons of shooters......for a reason. LeBron benefits from spacing more than any other player in the league (a few others I can think of, John Wall and Dwight Howard). His team's was constructed for that specific purpose. Kinda like Kobe's most recent championship squads were designed to let him focus on O (ariza or artest guarding the best wings) and have tons of rebounding to clean up his misses. MJ's teams were designed around him as well....that's basketball. The triangle can create spacing without as many shooters.


If you actually watch teams that DON'T have enough shooters, you'll see how crowded the paint can get.

[kshutts1]

#1 is obviously false. 2.9ing....you don't have to stay anywhere near your man. If he comes within arms reach, the 3 seconds reset, and if you step out of the paint, 3 seconds reset. You can spend 95% of a possession in the paint everytime. That's why 3 point shooting is at such a premium, because without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, teams can cram the paint.

Op posts gifs of packed paints from other eras, but those guys are in the paint guarding another player, not the ball handler. Half those Jordan .gifs have guys in the paint who aren't even looking at MJ.

OP likes to post LeBron .gifs with open paint....but that's because every team that LeBron has played for for 4 years now has had tons of shooters......for a reason. LeBron benefits from spacing more than any other player in the league (a few others I can think of, John Wall and Dwight Howard). His team's was constructed for that specific purpose. Kinda like Kobe's most recent championship squads were designed to let him focus on O (ariza or artest guarding the best wings) and have tons of rebounding to clean up his misses. MJ's teams were designed around him as well....that's basketball. The triangle can create spacing without as many shooters.


If you actually watch teams that DON'T have enough shooters, you'll see how crowded the paint can get.
Too logical, doesn't fit his agenda... or ISH's, for that matter.

[ralph_i_el]

Too logical, doesn't fit his agenda... or ISH's, for that matter.
:confusedshrug: hopefully some lurker gets something out of it

[pastis]

now try to bust this "myth":

Rodman: 2 DPOY 7x reb champion, 7x all defense first team, first ballot HOF
Pippen: top 35 all time player, 7x AS, 7 all nba selections, 8 all defense first team and 2 all defense second team selections

goat coach in Phil.

lets go

[StephHamann]

LeBRAN fans in this thread:

http://media.giphy.com/media/eb4WGfjWeIsgM/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my late 40s. I've seen Magic live vs. my 76ers of the 80s many times. I've listened to the discussions of 76er players and coaches on how to defend Magic during real time and not decades later.

Believe me, Magic was an elite offensive player due to other reason like superior passing, but he was never ever elite at post scoring like King or Mchale. Nor was he great in isos like Erving. Nor was he great in mid range like Gerving or MJ.

He just wasn't . Period.


First of all, Magic was elite on the post - you couldn't be more wrong on this one.. Magic was one of the best and most effective post players of all time.. He had an elite repertoire - a hook towards the middle or a spin towards the baseline - either way he's got you... Throw in goat passing and that's an elite post game... The "goat passing" isn't just lip service - Magic wasn't a 6 apg player in the playoffs like MJ, Lebron or Bird.. He was the all-time leader with 12.4 apg in the playoffs.. He could achieve that assist average from any position.. The guy would post up as a 6'9" big man, and run pnr's from the post with his frontcourt players - what PG in history has ever done that.. It was unstoppable.. Magic often ran the Lakers offense from the post.

As for his midrange - here's where we should be able to agree.. Magic was a 2-point shooter, like everyone else back then - you should know that almost all 20 ppg scorers in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency.. This is just a stone-cold fact, borne out by the the eye test an understanding that the vast majority of points were scored in the midrange area in previous eras - a ton of guys were just really, really good at scoring in that area - think of it this way - how many guys in today's game are elite at 3-point shooters - like, a super-ton... That's how it was in previous eras with the midrange... Okay - I've tried to explain my eye test to you, now I will CLEARLY prove Magic's elite midrange efficiency using stats:

Magic was a 2-point shooter - his 2-point field goal percentage was 54.1% on 12.1 two-point attempts per game - since Magic didn't shoot 3-pointers, the 54.1% WAS his midrange efficiency, once we essentially "remove" his at-rim percentage from this number.. So let's make the most conservative assumptions possible to see what THE WORST possible midrange percentage that Magic could've had... Let's assume that 40% of Magic's shots were at the rim (that's a Lebron-league-leading level and way too high for Magic, but we're trying to find the absolute floor of what Magic's midrange efficiency could've been)... With 40% of Magic's 2-pointers are at the rim, that means the remaining 60% are from midrange.. If we assume a 70% fg on his at-rim shots (again, this is elite and too high for Magic), his efficiency on the remaining 60% of his midrange was 43.3%:

0.40 (70%) + 0.60 (43.3%) = 54.1%


So 43.3% is the WORST career midrange percentage for Magic - and we know that the 40% proportion of at-rim shots and 70% efficiency on those shots were both WAY too high, which means Magic's midrange efficiency was considerably higher than 43.3%... Again, it was elite, just like most decent to great scorers back then.

Regarding isolations, you got me there, except on the post - Magic was elite when isolated on the post.

[3ball]

Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.


And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..

Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.





Yeah 3 ball calm with this stuff lol.


Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.





Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact


What good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).





Remember, the Bulls had the same roster back in 1989 as they had in 1994.. But they couldn't have won 55 games in 1989.. So obviously, the journey towards having 55-win capability was an accumulative one... The accumulation of once-in-a-generation 3-peat chemistry, execution, and strategy enabled the Bulls to win 55 games in 1994.

The accumulative dynamic is also evident by evaluating the sheer talent on the team in 1994 - like all of MJ's teams, the team had very little talent in 1994, other than Pippen.. Kukoc was a Harrison Barnes-level player with worse defense.. The team's lack of talented scorers is why the Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for all of their 6 championships.. So again, the 55 wins wasn't due to having a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the very rare, 3-peat caliber of team chemistry, execution and strategy that was accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.

Of course, none of this means 2 bird shits when the competition increases in the playoffs - in the playoffs, you need more than just teamwork to win... You need PLAYERS that can produce, which is what MJ provided... That's why when the 1994 playoffs measured the Bulls TRUE ability without MJ, they were only an ordinary 2nd round exit team, which is a goat drop-off from not 1, not 2, but a three-peat with MJ.. Fortunately, MJ came back and validated his 2nd Round to 3-peat impact by returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory, beginning in his first full season back.. How many guys take 2 years off and return as the best with 3-peat and 3 FMVP's.... Only the goat has those kind of stories.
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[LAZERUSS]

Every team that Lebron joined improved dramatically, and in some cases, were franchise all-time bests, and every team he left immediately plunged into losing seasons.

[3ball]

OP likes to post LeBron .gifs with open paint....but that's because every team that LeBron has played for for 4 years now has had tons of shooters.....



It's not just Lebron's team that has shooters to create wide open paints - every team has it - teams average 22 three-point attempts per game.. Today's game is BASED on multiple 3-point shooters camped behind the line to provide spacing and weakside spacing on every possession of every game.. A cursory glance at 1 minute of 1 game shows this, let alone watching multiple games..






triangle can create spacing without as many shooters.
[/B]


^^^ Falsehood - the triangle wasn't capable of having today's spacing - 3-pointers are further out and create more spacing - it's physics.. The Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 22 per game for today's teams, and 27+ for Lebron's teams - it's lunacy to say the Bulls had today's spacing, or could've had today's spacing.

Not surprisingly, the Bulls got their offense the same way all teams do when a lack of 3-point shooting turns sceen-roll/drive-and-kick into a mathematically unworthy option - they resort to post, off-ball and mid-range options.. Otoh, today's vastly superior 3-point shooting enables every team to base their offense on high efficiency drive-and-kick, which is a massive boon for wing players like Lebron.
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[3ball]

#1 is obviously false. 2.9ing....you don't have to stay anywhere near your man. If he comes within arms reach, the 3 seconds reset, and if you step out of the paint, 3 seconds reset. You can spend 95% of a possession in the paint everytime. That's why 3 point shooting is at such a premium, because without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, today's teams could still cram the paint.



If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often... However, for today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

Otoh, today's "armslength" restriction and "2.9 seconds" time limit in the paint eliminates the majority of time a defender can be in the paint - and this language is unique to today's rules - there was no such language in the rules governing paint defense of previous eras.. :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

.
Myth #6: Lebron is better at making bad teams good than MJ


We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

The other alternative is that statlines don't tell the entire story....ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STATS FROM NO DEFENSE 1989. LeBron's team included some decent defenders and and a one time all-star who only made it off of open shots LeBron spoon fed him.

in 1989 the average ppg for a team was 107
in 2009 it was 100

Teams took more than 10% more field goal attempts in 1989

Young Pippen >Mo Williams

[ralph_i_el]

It's not just Lebron's team that has shooters to create wide open paints - every team has it - teams average 22 three-point attempts per game.. Today's game is BASED on multiple 3-point shooters camped behind the line to provide spacing and weakside spacing on every possession of every game.. A cursory glance at 1 minute of 1 game shows this, let alone watching multiple games..



^^^ Falsehood - the triangle wasn't capable of having today's spacing - 3-pointers are further out and create more spacing - it's physics.. The Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 22 per game for today's teams, and 27+ for Lebron's teams - it's lunacy to say the Bulls had today's spacing, or could've had today's spacing.

Not surprisingly, the Bulls got their offense the same way all teams do when a lack of 3-point shooting turns sceen-roll/drive-and-kick into a mathematically unworthy option - they resort to post, off-ball and mid-range options.. Otoh, today's vastly superior 3-point shooting enables every team to base their offense on high efficiency drive-and-kick, which is a massive boon for wing players like Lebron.
.

Spacing isn't just keeping defenders spread out. You played ball, you know this.
The triangle made sure that guys were moving and passing efficiently, so that even off the ball their defender had to pay attention to them even if they weren't a three point shooter.


Teams today shoot more 3's because they have to. Defense evolved to the point that it's necessary for players off the ball to be an immediate threat to shoot, or their man is free to roam as long as they stay out of the paint. This means that those little mid-post iso's Jordan loved could be stifled by flexible double teams. It means that weakside help (that's ACTUALLY help, not just guys boxing each other out in the paint) can come earlier. It means PnR defense is more flexible and it's easier to down the ball handler to the baseline.

Thib's defensive revolution happened man. He figured out how to exploit the ability to run near zone defense. The 3 second rule does NOTHING. Most games it's never even called. it takes a guy .2 seconds to go from the middle of the paint to having 1 foot out of the paint, and then the 3 seconds resets.....or if ANYONE goes through the paint within his arms-reach it resets.

I can tell you haven't watched teams without enough shooters play against this style of defense. It gets real ugly.

This is the reason that star players take less shots on average in today's game. To be a star scorer, you also have to be a great passer, otherwise defenses will be able to key up on you too easily. Nick Young probably could have had a 25ppg season in the 80's

[triangleoffense]

bro relax, no one takes anyone saying Lebron or Kobe is better than Jordan seriously except their most hardcore fans, which will get drowned out after the off-season.

[ralph_i_el]

If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often... However, for today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

Otoh, today's "armslength" restriction and "2.9 seconds" time limit in the paint eliminates the majority of time a defender can be in the paint - and this language is unique to today's rules - there was no such language in the rules governing paint defense of previous eras.. :confusedshrug:

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm NO IT DOESN'T.
-I can go run into the paint when I'm nowhere near anyone
-this causes an imaginary 3 second clock to start
-if I step one toe out of the paint, that clock resets
-if another player comes withing a few feet of me, it resets.

What about this do you not understand? It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back. If I wanted to, I could stand in the paint for 95% of every possession every game all season.......the problem is, they'll put my guy into a PnR, so I'll have to leave the paint to defend that, or my man will be a good shooter, so I'll have to leave the paint and stay closer to him.

Let's say the Thunder and playing the Grizz. Marc Gasol wants to chill in the paint to stifle Westbrook all day, and his primary man is Steve Adams. Adams cannot shoot, so Gasol is comfortable staying near the basket. The Thunder would then bring Adams up to give Westbrook a pick, meaning they have a mini 2-on-1 with whoever is guarding Westbrook's, unless Gasol leaves the paint to guard the PnR. BUT, if the big setting the pick isn't a competent scorer, Gasol will still stay with one foot in the paint, dropping back to stifle any Westbrook drive, and any Adams roll.


This wouldn't be the case if you didn't have shooters to space the PnR, because the drive could be checked by one of the players uninvolved in the PnR.


God dammit, I'm supposed to be writing an essay for school, not to educate you.

[3ball]

Spacing isn't just keeping defenders spread out. You played ball, you know this.

triangle made sure that guys were moving and passing efficiently, so that even off the ball their defender had to pay attention to them even if they weren't a three point shooter.


No, that's EXACTLY what it is.

Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances.

Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.

[3ball]

.
We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" he faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[LAZERUSS]

2nd year Pippen's 14/6/4 is better than ALL-STAR Mo William's 17/4/6??...

And even if you adjust the stats 10% for pace, MJ's 33/8/8/54 is still > Lebron's 28/8/7/49, yet Lebron's team won 19 more games.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE.

Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.

Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)

Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.

Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.

THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.

[DonDadda59]

MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE.

Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.

Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)

Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.

Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.

THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.

Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:

A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:

[LAZERUSS]

Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:

A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:

You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed all seven games of the '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?



As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.

Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.

[DonDadda59]

Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:


You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed the seven game '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?



As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.

Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.

Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:

[LAZERUSS]

Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:



Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:

You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?

Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.

Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.

BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)

And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?

[DonDadda59]

You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?

Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.

Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.

BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)

Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:


And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?

We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:



We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.

BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.

And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back.



Again, you're forgetting that the paint is 16 x 19 feet.. So it's not just a tippy-toe in and out - it's an EIGHT FOOT distance that a weakside defender must travel from the weakside block to under the rim, so they can contest a strongside penetrator.

But today's armslength restriction PREVENTS a defender from remaining under the rim while his man is 8 feet away on the block - that's why Speights can't stay under the rim to contest Lebron above - the armslength restriction forces him to follow Tristan Thompson to the weakside block to stay within armslength.. :facepalm

Whereas in previous eras, Speights could remain under the rim "with no time restriction", anytime his man is in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side - these conditions are met by Tristan Thompson in the GIF, and they usually are when teams don't shoot 3-pointers:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.





without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, today's teams could still cram the paint.


If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often, where the defensive rules are stricter than prior eras... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Therefore, if today's teams didn't shoot 3-pointers, defenders would be more restricted than previous eras, since offensive players would be occupying the paint much more and today's rules for paint defense are MUCH more restrictive than prior eras (although today's defensive rules for outside the paint allow more freedom strategically... but still not physically because of hand-check band and bans on other physicality).
.

[DonDadda59]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:


BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.

Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:

But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.

Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW. :applause:


And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.

So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?

Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:



Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:

But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.

Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW. :applause:



So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?

Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.

Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.

Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.

[DonDadda59]

Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.

Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.

Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?

Got it.

[LAZERUSS]

Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?

Got it.

EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense. And sure enough, in the first nine games of the '70 season, it was WILT leading the league in scoring at 32.2 (on a .579 FG% to go along with 20.6 rpg)...when, in game nine, he shredded the same knee that he injured in game seven of the '69 Finals.

[DonDadda59]

EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense.

And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:

Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.

[LAZERUSS]

And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:

Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain played a HEALTHY Reed to a draw in the first four games (Reed shot .423 from the field in those two losses, and was brutalized on the glass by Chamberlain.)

And from that point on, Chamberlain was, BY FAR, the most dominant player in the series. In the last three games, he averaged 29.3 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .710 from the field. All at nowhere NEAR 100%.

Had West not been abused by Frazier in game seven, who knows how that game turns out.

But go ahead...I want you to give us a GOAT-level player, who came back FOUR MONTHS from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, and put up a 23-24 .625 FG% Finals.

You "bashers" are hilarious.

[ralph_i_el]

No, that's EXACTLY what it is.

Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances.

Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.

I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.

Keeping defenders moving and engaged with their man-assignment does the same thing that spacing the floor with 3 point shooters does, it keeps them honest and unable to help against the ballhandler. Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.

and adjusting for pace, Bron's statline is just as good as MJ's.....and statlines don't matter in this case. LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.


.....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D, and Mo Speights (who was also in the paint longer than 3 seconds) couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).

quit trying to make your point using LeBron gifs. Look at the paint during Derrick Rose's MVP season. Look at the paint last season for Westbrook. Look at the paint for John Wall the last few years. LeBron's squads for the past few years have had a ton of shooters, and double teams on Bron have to come late because of his passing ability.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.


^^^^ TRANSLATION:.. "No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead:

Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.





Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.


Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.

And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "with no time restriction".. This allows much more freedom than today's "armslength" and "2.9 second" restrictions.





LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.


Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..

The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.

MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a somebody... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif


....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D,



Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.

And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:


2e. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds..."

"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds...."





and Mo Speights couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).


That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.

Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.

[ralph_i_el]

^^^^ TRANSLATION:.. "No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead:

Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.



Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.

And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "with no time restriction".. This allows much more freedom than today's "armslength" and "2.9 second" restrictions.



Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..

The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.

MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a somebody... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.



Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.

And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:


2e. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds..."

"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds...."



That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.

Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.


:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.

Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED!

[3ball]

Mo Williams was better alongside Bron.


Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:

Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron: 17.2/3.5/6.3 on 48%
Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron: 17.6/3.4/4.1 on 46%

Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.





I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....


Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.

Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.

By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - the things ELGIN was goat at.....).





Statlines aren't everything.


True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *simply not a good enough player*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).

His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency cratered from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..

The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.

Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.





CONTEXT BE DAMNED!


The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "within armslength" inside the paint.

Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.

Also, previous era defenders never had to be "within armslength" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.

[ralph_i_el]

Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:

Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron: 17.2/3.5/6.3 on 48%
Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron: 17.6/3.4/4.1 on 46%

Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.



Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.

Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.

By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - the things ELGIN was goat at.....).



True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *simply not a good enough player*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).

His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency cratered from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..

The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.

Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.



The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "within armslength" inside the paint.

Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.

Also, previous era defenders never had to be "within armslength" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.


nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.

Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.


I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.


We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.


LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.


Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.


Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.

[CeltsGarlic]

My hate for MJ grows. even tho I like him.

[Paul George 24]

:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.

Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED!
mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:

[Paul George 24]

nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.

Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.


I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.


We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.


LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.


Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.


Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.
He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules

[ralph_i_el]

mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:

On the 26 win bucks who only had one other scorer.
200 guys in the league could do that right now.

[kshutts1]

...if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.
.
I call BS on this.

You've never admitted you were wrong. You only stop replying. May as well leave out that first part.. "I'd just admit I was wrong or..." Just leave that out.

[ShawkFactory]

He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules
No it's because he's an incredible finisher. His strength/explosion/coordination combo is unmatched.

[3ball]

gonna respond in a sec ralph
.

[kshutts1]

3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?

[3ball]

3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?
get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...

say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***

[sdot_thadon]

3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?
:oldlol:

[3ball]

:oldlol:


again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:

Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.

Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
(1996): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats
(2015): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats


Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
.

[3ball]

Lebron took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round.


In 2007, the 22-year old Lebron didn't have to face a championship team and #1 defense until the Finals, due to weak competition in the Eastern Conference.. Obviously, if he had faced the Spurs in the 1st round, he would've been swept in the first round instead of the Finals..

Otoh, the 22-year-old MJ had to face a championship team and #1 defense in the FIRST ROUND (1986 Celtics), due to superior competition in the Eastern Conference.. Here are both players' performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at 22 years old:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/6 on 35%





He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice.


Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh).. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.

Even though Lebron-ball cratered his stats, Bosh averaged 17/7 in 4 years alongside Lebron (including value-add versatility, such as 40% floor-spreading from 3-point range) - this is far superior to Grant's rudimentary 11/8 alongside MJ.. Of course, Ray Allen > BJ armstrong... Chalmers > Paxson.. and on down the line.






I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs.. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.



You don't get it - the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume*... The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.

Otoh, MJ's elite mid-range and isolation ability allowed him to maintain his efficiency at higher shot volume - accordingy, he was SUCCESSFUL winning a championship while carrying his team at high shooting volume.. In the 1993 Finals, MJ averaged 41/9/6 on 52%, despite getting double-teamed incessantly.. Whereas Lebron couldn't maintain his fg% despite not getting double-teamed and having the most secluded isolations in the history of the game - he was just THAT bad in the areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation).







We get it - Lebron is an inconsistent shooter



What do you mean "we get it"????... Lebron being a bad shooter is one of the biggest factors why he isn't as good as MJ and others!!!!!... Saying "we get it" won't change that or make anyone forget/gloss-over it.. It will be brought up EVERY time.. Even Steve Kerr brings it up:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xat1/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/11403499_956469487706651_6380464349761851951_n.jpg ?oh=ac0c2ae4e647a9e1e35ac4193d34c692&oe=56266B66&__gda__=1445800218_a1bdd0a2aedd8b5e945ae701c6109d9 0





Lebron's post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.


This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP





MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE.


The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. MJ is better in every other category.

Just look at passing - in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ, even though the NBA's player-tracking stats show he dominates the ball more than starting PG's... MJ is the superior passer when playing off-ball and he's been proven the better passer as the primary ballhandler too:

The one time MJ got to dominate the ball like a PG (for 24 games at the end of 1989 season), his 30/9/11 averages and stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire CAREER as a ball-dominator..

Lebron did have a 12 game stretch in 2010, where he was the actual, listed PG - his ball-domination went through the roof, more than his standard, and he averaged 30/7/11 - but it was only for 12 games and it was against teams that average 34 wins (lottery teams), while MJ's 24 game stretch came against teams averaging 45 wins (playoff teams).






The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today.



The bolded above is where you're wrong - today's defenders are more restricted INSIDE the paint - they must stand "within armslength" to remain in the paint, while previous eras defenders could remain in the paint "with no time restriction".

However, I agree that today's defenders have more freedom OUTSIDE the paint, but the freedom gap isn't as big as inside the paint - defenders in previous eras didn't have to stand "within armslength" of their man ANYWHERE on the floor, let alone in the most important area on the floor (the paint).





Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.


Pace was slower and ppg was less during all three seasons of MJ's 2nd three-peat... So you're wrong for the 80th time itt.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 89 to 99, which averages to the same as this season's 94 pace.





Did you honestly just say that LeBron's great transition game would do WORSE in the faster paced 80's?


Lebron would still suck in the halfcourt, which is what matters in the playoffs... The pace in the playoffs from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and it was 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
(1996): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats
(2015): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats


Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.





He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ.. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times..


Exactly - Lebron's playoff record IS WORSE, despite facing competition that is verifiably FAR worse:


http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg


But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances..

And the one time he made the Finals without team-hopping, he only had to beat a 1 seed that won 53 games - that's the worst record of any 1 seed EVER.. Not surprisingly, Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44.8% fg to beat the WOAT #1 seed ever - 25 ppg on 44.8% would be the worst playoffs series of MJ's entire career.





nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better.


MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not..

But more importantly, Lebron plays much worse against the best competition because he's only elite as the ballhandler - this singular focus fares worse against the best teams than MJ and Elgin's elite ability in ALL scoring areas.. A comparison of playoff and Finals stats proves that Lebron performs significantly worse against the better competition.

Furthermore, Lebron's ball-dominance hasn't just hurt his OWN stats against the better teams, but it's proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... However, even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best teams in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.

[sdot_thadon]

again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:

Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.

Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
(1996): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats
(2015): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats


Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
.
MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.

[3ball]

MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.


His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:

BULLS' PACE:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)





MJ played in two eras


Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:

(1988): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
(198): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats
(2015): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats


In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:

(1996): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats


And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.

[sdot_thadon]

His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:

BULLS' PACE:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)



Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:

(1988): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
(198): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats
(2015): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats


In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:

(1996): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats


And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
.
Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?

[3ball]

Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?
If you can't be specific, than you're the disingenuous one.
.

[kshutts1]

get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...

say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***
Sorry, I was in a rush. Had a job interview.

[kshutts1]

Mo's stats were stagnant or worse alongside Lebron, while Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ.. Pippen improved alongside MJ, while Mo didn't improve alongside Lebron - those are the FACTS.


Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh).. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.


[COLOR="Navy"]You don't get it - the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume*... The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.


This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP



The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. MJ is better in every other category.

Just look at passing - in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ,


But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances..

MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not.. When you adjust for pace, Elgin's still blow Lebron's away, while MJ's destroy Elgin's.. :confusedshrug:


1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)

2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.

3) Mislead because you're claiming that one series proves something about an entire career of an individual.

4) Mislead because... just look at the list of "players" in front of Lebron, then come back to me. :facepalm

5) Mislead because MJ is not better in every other category... 3p shooting, for one.

6) Mislead because you referenced APG as a barometer for passing ability.

7) Mislead because you choose to apply context when it's appropriate for you. To you, numbers are numbers, so don't refute the numbers on Lebron.. He's made 5 straight Finals as the best player on his team. Jordan didn't do that.

8) Mislead because you don't know what the word "destroy" means. "Destroy" implies that MJ has Lebron beat by a very wide margin.
30/6/5/2/1 on 50%
vs
25/6/7/2/1 on 49%
is hardly "destroying"

[3ball]

1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)

2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.

3) mislead because you're saying that one series (2015 Finals) proves something about the entire career of an individual.


1) so you concede that pippen was young and inexperienced as a rookie and 2nd year player, and that all star mo Williams was better.. We know for certain that by virtue of being an all star, mo williams was a top 24 player, or closer to that than 2nd year pip.. So mo Williams was more of a help vs. the competition than pip, which supports the original argument that mj's 89 bulls were more of a 1 man team than lebron's 2009 and 2010 cavaliers (see myth #6 in the op).


2) lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from the SF position (lebron-ball) only requires shooters, and no team had more shooters than lebron's teams.. He even had a 10 time all star pf spreading the floor and hitting 40% from deep for him and the goat shooter in Allen.. Lebron's cast was built well around what lebron's game is (pnr/drive-and-kick)..

The real reason lebron only went 2/4 with a more talented cast than jordan had, is because this style is solvable/suboptimal and he had arguably the biggest choke ever in sports.. That tarnished him and established a precedent to blame him for future losses.. Ray Allen's walk off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render his stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.


3) it isnt just one series - lebron shot 41.7% for the entire playoffs at the higher volume... the finals was just a continuation of what he had done in the other series.. Thats why iggy and his 16/6/4 didnt deserve fmvp..

But more importantly, we knew lebron couldnt shoot a good percentage at high volume BEFORE the playoffs started.. the nba's player tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at the higher volume could've been predicted.


I'll get to the rest of your sophistry later.. :rolleye:
.

[ralph_i_el]

I can't keep doing this 3ball. You're too logically inconsistent for me to argue with without writing big ass essays every time.
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2014/E_1XF7.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Some of the Jordan "Myths"...

He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.

He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.

His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)

He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.


Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.

He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.

He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.

Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.

[kshutts1]

You don't need to respond to the rest of my post, 3ball. I got my answer. You really do believe those "facts" that you tell. That was all I wanted; not to debate the merits of said "facts".

[3ball]

(My explanation for this phenomenon is that the Heat simply gave up halfway through the series, starting in Game 3 - when a defense realizes their offense can't keep up, there's zero motivation to keep putting forth the effort to play defense - why keep playing D when you know your offense can't keep up?... It's the same guys playing offense and defense you know - defenders are AWARE of what's happening on offense.

the heat giving up in Games 3-5 is definitely Lebron's fault - his passive approach and 17 fga per game gave the Heat ZERO chance to keep up with the Spurs - it's no surprise the defense gave up halfway through the series.. this is a stark contrast to MJ in the 1993 Finals, where his 33 fga and good efficiency BARELY allowed the Bulls to keep up with the Suns offense and eventually squeak by - both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in that series, so every ounce of MJ's 33 fga was needed - if Lebron shoots 33 fga on 51% in 2014 Finals, then he squeaks by, just like MJ did... And there's no excuse either, because Lebron never got doubled teamed by the Spurs, while MJ faced incessant double-teams).

[3ball]

Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.


And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.





MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader


Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.





Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact


If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).

Btw, what good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.
.

[ralph_i_el]

You're the one that said the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls because lebron was better than MJ.. You offered no logic to backup your claim.

Because there is none.. MJ had better stats and carried a lower seed much further, while lebron had worse stats and lost in 2nd round with the 1 seed.. Like, there is zero basis to say lebron is better than mj, let alone 19 games better.
.

Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games

[3ball]

Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games


None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.

The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.

Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.

Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
.

[3ball]

You really do believe those "facts" that you tell


They're STATS, so they have to be facts - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at higher volume in the 2015 playoffs could've been predicted.. Also, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a championship while undertaking high volume.

Btw, you're missing an obvious factor when you talk about pace.. Pace ALWAYS slows down in the playoffs, regardless of era.. Pace was 94 in both the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, which is the same as 2015 playoffs.. Since the playoffs is always a half court game regardless of era, we know there wouldn't be any extra transition in the 80's to offset lebron's halfcourt game, which would struggle without teammates that shot 3-pointers - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.





Not to debate the merits of said facts


Facts cannot be debated - it cannot be debated that mj increased the stats of his teammates more than lebron - this is a statistical fact.

Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanked his efficiency (2015 Finals).
.

[ralph_i_el]

None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.

The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.

Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.

Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
.
LeBron was definitely guarding more than just wings in '09.
Counting stats are not the be all end all when determining impact. LeBron's cavs had a pace of 88 in 08-09.....MJ's Bulls had a pace of 97.....THIS MEANS LeBron SCORED MORE PER 100 POSSESIONS. He rebounded and assisted significantly more per-100 as well.
The difference is, LeBron got his stats on a slow, grind it out team that won 66 games....MJ got his stats playing mediocre team ball at a much faster pace.

If you just want to look at it stat wise between those two seasons, LeBron had a more impressive line. LeBron also has MJ in PER, WS, and WS-48 for those seasons. He had a higher USG% than MJ, leading the 4th most effective offense....with a USG% of 33 and an assist% of 38% (aka pass first point guard level). Really I can't think of any examples of players who shouldered a larger load for a top 5 offense.

Enjoy these facts and these nuts.


And @ your last post....obviously playing Wade and Bron at the same time is going to lower each of their respective effectiveness....they're both ball handling slashers. When one is doing what he's best at, the other by definition was NOT doing what he was best at. Which is why MJ had a better supporting cast even though prine Wade>prime Pippen if they were the best players on their own teams. You go on about Bosh being a 10 time all star, but he started earning all star bearths when he was a number 1 option. Having him.as your third best scorer is going to reduce his effectiveness. He may be better than another team's third option in a vacuum, but some guys are just better suited to being complementary players. Bosh was overqualified to be a third option, but when you've got two other guys who are better go-to scorers, somebody has to space the floor.

I think about it this way. Obviously prime Bosh>Prime Shane Battier.....but if I want a third option I'm taking prime Battier over a lot of better and more talented players.



Also Lol @ you giving MJ credit for Pippen increasing his stats. High draft picks usual increase their stats regardless. Pippen's stats increasing as he approached his prime is not as impressive as turning Mo Williams from a chucker on one of the worst squads in the league into an efficient All-star/

[LAZERUSS]

And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.



Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.



If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).

Btw, what good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.
.

Those last TWO quotes were NOT MINE.

Now please address MY POST...


Some of the Jordan "Myths"...

He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.

He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.

His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)

He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.


Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.

He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.

He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.

Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.

[ralph_i_el]

3ball too scuuuured
http://images.rapgenius.com/598dae3468e0a916d4b4e1a1e73a46a9.500x281x41.gif

Go to church

http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/13-CamRon-Eff-Yo-Thread.gif

http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/7-Hat-Spin.gif

http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/10-Drake-Falling-Degrasi.gif

Me and Laz like:
http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/19-Pop-Champagne.gif

[3ball]

Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.

Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat.

As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.

[ralph_i_el]

Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team -
he lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.

or do you mean when the Cavs lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?

[LAZERUSS]

Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.

Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat.

As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.

They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.

Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.

And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.

And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.

In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.

BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on.

[3ball]

Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.


And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..

Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.





MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader


Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.





Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact


What good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.

[3ball]

lebron lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.

or do you mean when lebron lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?


The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).

The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.

Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):

JORDAN: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
LEBRON: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.

[LAZERUSS]

And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..

Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.



Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.



What good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.

Again...those quotes were NOT MINE.

Now, please address MY post...


Some of the Jordan "Myths"...

He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.

He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.

His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)

He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.


Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.

He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.

He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.

Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.

or...


They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.

Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.

And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.

And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.

In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.

BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on


The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.

Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him. And even in Miami, they went 47-18 in the games in which Wade missed in their four years together. He left that team, and without him...POS. And before someone mentions Love and Kyrie...without LBJ this past year... 3-10. WITH James... 50-19. Hell, he could lose BOTH of those guys and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.

[3ball]

The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.


The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:

HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.





Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him.


In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.

Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.





he could lose BOTH kyrie and love and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.


The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a championship while undertaking high volume.





And even in Miami


Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.

[LAZERUSS]

The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:

HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.



In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.

Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.



The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a championship while undertaking high volume.



Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

FACTS are FACTS my friend.

Lebron made EVERY team he joined a WINNER, and EVERY team he left, a LOSER.

Jordan QUIT, and was replaced by the great Pete Myers, and the Bulls went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 combined games...they romp to 60+, and with HCA, likely a title.)

Oh, and Pippen/Grant >>> than Wade/Bosh
and Pippen/Rodman >>> Wade/Bosh

We saw their IMPACT. Without MJ... 55-27, and then winning seasons, and even a title, after him.
Without Lebron. Wade and Bosh...losers who couldn't make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

FACTS.

[ralph_i_el]

The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).

The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.

Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):

JORDAN: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
LEBRON: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.

Do you understand what "across the board" means?

[3ball]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries


We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post) - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).

Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk




SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris



Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....

confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s


RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.

Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s

And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s



SOURCES:

Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
..http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf
.

[ralph_i_el]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries


We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post) - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).

Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk




SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris



Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....

confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s


RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.

Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s

And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s



SOURCES:

Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
..http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf
.
Players from that era dunked more often....but it was harder?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0co3aume1qf1jfgo1_500.gif
http://www.chartattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/29-Camron-NP.gif
http://i.imgur.com/QGtxTtr.gif
https://i.imgur.com/8H7sr7o.gif
http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/44-Dame-Sigh.gif

[sdot_thadon]

Nice scientific approach....:facepalm Did you maybe think for a second, even 2 that, perhaps one reason there are less shots per dunk aren't simply due to it being easier or harder but maybe it had more to do with there being far more athletic swing men in this era?

[90sgoat]

http://i.imgur.com/oQZoA3G.gif

[Dr.J4ever]

Ralph and Laz dominating 3ball.:applause:

[3ball]

.
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries


We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post) - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).

Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk




SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris



Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....

confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s


RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.

Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s

And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s



SOURCES:

Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
..http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf

[3ball]

there are far more athletic swing men in this era




SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris





Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk


perhaps one reason today's game has less shots per dunk (more dunks)



Today's game DOESN'T have more dunks - there were MORE dunks in 1995 than today... In 2001, dunks went back down to their 1988 level... As the chart shows, dunk frequency has FLUCTUATED over the years.. There's no one specific era where dunks were more or less..

Btw, let me guess - you got reaaallly bad grades in school - how can you misread the numbers on the chart and think today's game has more dunks.. It's amazing - every time you respond to one of my posts, you get my post wrong - you literally read it wrong and think it means something different than what I wrote.. Horrific reading comprehension and competency.. You're misreading of this chart means you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs? I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference, and all the links seem to be dead. :(

[3ball]

Ralph and Laz dominating 3ball.:applause:


says the same loser that claims there was spacing in the 80's... :roll: :roll: :roll:

you and flpiii are the liars going around on various forums saying that the 80's had spacing... like, you can't have less integrity.

[ralph_i_el]

says the same loser that claims there was spacing in the 80's... :roll: :roll: :roll:

you and flpiii are the liars going around on various forums saying that the 80's had spacing... like, you can't have less integrity.
http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/2-Camron-You-Mad.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrsl62r3aN1qivigxo1_r2_400.gif
http://mouthtoears.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/lil-boosie-gif-2.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://i.imgur.com/ddKNr.gif

[3ball]

3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs?




I use a much faster, more user-friendly site now and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as the defense Lebron and MJ saw when they had ball at the elbow:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/ZN3fsu.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/BwsUCL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2015/8Fa7R_.gif


I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference



Let me know what gifs you wanted to see - I probably have them on the new site.

It's funny because I have some Lebron gifs on there too, and but they were all wide open dunks, mostly after using a screen or in transition.. Whereas, more of MJ's shots were highly contested, so he had many more hangtime, dipsy-do shots and chest-to-chest posters... Lebron's shot allocation is easier (due to the spacing-inspired 3-and-D).

Of course, you can't do 3-and-D all the time, like at very high shot volumes - but unfortunately, it's a statistical fact that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume, since he's horrible at the additional midrange (shown above) required of high volume shooting.

27 shot attempts per game (the amount Lebron averaged in 2015 Playoffs) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.
.

[sdot_thadon]

SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris


Today's game DOESN'T have more dunks - there were MORE dunks in 1995 than today... In 2001, dunks went back down to their 1988 level... As the chart shows, dunk frequency has FLUCTUATED over the years.. There's no one specific era where dunks were more or less..

Btw, let me guess - you got reaaallly bad grades in school - how can you misread the numbers on the chart and think today's game has more dunks.. It's amazing - every time you respond to one of my posts, you get my post wrong - you literally read it wrong and think it means something different than what I wrote.. Horrific reading comprehension and competency.. You're misreading of this chart means you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:
.
Wait
, what? How are you going to reply to me about misreading something when:
A)I didn't misread, said exactly what I meant.

B)I didn't post what you quoted either

And proceed to mention school? :oldlol: Why don't you clean them goggles off next time you read my post. How the hell do you manage to keep getting sonned in all of your threads by so many different people?

[ralph_i_el]

https://i.imgur.com/TIXWapu.gif
http://i.imgur.com/GxMsDsE.gif
http://i.imgur.com/jxiiJ8I.gif
http://i.imgur.com/3qYWEX4.gif
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nwa.gif

You're a joke 3ball

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/jxiiJ8I.gif
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nwa.gif

You're a joke 3ball


No mas again... I always make you resort to hating.

You're a pro at hating, i'll give you that.. you got those hater gifs on tap like my mj chest-to-chests

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I use a much faster, more user-friendly site now and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as the defense Lebron and MJ saw when they had ball at the elbow

I posted in a thread a few weeks back, linking some of Jordan's best finishes around the rim.

Here are some of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsREnYw6Afg#t=4m29s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mUtNiW0IVQ#t=5m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVTbfTcsQDM#t=7m05s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWrfxut6FJM#t=2m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWrfxut6FJM#t=4m49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswKeVJyewA#t=4m31s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btcr031tD4Y#t=0m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btcr031tD4Y#t=1m14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0koFShSRAVY#t=3m51

Mike's agility, body control, first step, hang-time, fluidity and dexterity around the hoop...just on another level.

If you have time on your hands, you should seriously start archiving some of these again dude.