Can We Get Something Straight About Jordan

[eliteballer]

...and really any other player you only know or remember by highlights.

Highlight videos or even certain game videos can have messed up speeds and framerates. We've all seen it.

THIS is what Jordan looks like in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eIIUERDl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TZRyfjZthE

So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose, way faster in the open court than LeBron or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.

It's the same reason you see guys who actually played in the NBA like Barkley say things like, "LeBron's just as fast and athletic as Jordan, but he's 50 pounds heavier". A quote which by the way I don't agree with, but applies all the same. They don't have the same illusions that you do with videos.

Go watch the 93 Finals and hear them say, "They're putting KJ on Jordan because he can match Jordan's quickness and not be beat as easily".

The same applies to any player you primarily know/remember off of highlight videos.

It's like another poster once said: "There's a video of Wade on youtube that looks like he was shot out of a cannon".

Keep that in mind for ANY player you see in highlight videos.

[sekachu]

...and really any other player you only know or remember by highlights.

Highlight videos or even certain game videos can have messed up speeds and framerates. We've all seen it.

THIS is what Jordan looks like in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eIIUERDl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-to7R2e44

So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose, way faster in the open court than LeBron or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.

It's the same reason you see guys who actually played in the NBA like Barkley say things like, "LeBron's just as fast and athletic as Jordan, but he's 50 pounds heavier". A quote which by the way I don't agree with, but applies all the same. They don't have the same illusions that you do with videos.

Go watch the 93 Finals and hear them say, "They're putting KJ on Jordan because he can match Jordan's quickness and not be beat as easily".

The same applies to any player you primarily know/remember off of highlight videos.

It's like another poster once said: "There's a video of Wade on youtube that looks like he was shot out of a cannon".

Keep that in mind for ANY player you see in highlight videos.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

Watch the link above. MJ open court is as fast as lebron and as explosive as westbrook in his prime. MJ's quickness is based on his explosive first step with his unpredictable acceleration and iverson depends on his quick, agile dribbles until his defenders lost their step.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

Watch the link above. MJ open court is as fast as lebron and as explosive as westbrook in his prime. MJ's quickness is based on his explosive first step with his unpredictable acceleration and iverson depends on his quick, agile dribbles until his defenders lost their step.

That video is sped up. You've gotta be half blind not to see that:roll:

It's the perfect example of everything I mentioned in the OP.

[ShawkFactory]

He's was fast as Lebron and as explosive as Westbrook. He didn't have Lebrons size/strength tho so he obviously wasn't quite the fright in transition.

But yea there's a reason he's the GOAT. His athletic ability overall is among the 5 greatest "basketball players" ever. I put that in quotes because it's meant to disclude those who were amazing athletes that just played basketball because of it, but didn't have any real game.

[DonDadda59]

http://gamesfiends.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/conspiracy.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

Watch the link above. MJ open court is as fast as lebron and as explosive as westbrook in his prime. MJ's quickness is based on his explosive first step with his unpredictable acceleration and iverson depends on his quick, agile dribbles until his defenders lost their step.

RIP, OP.


OPP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFTBG1sae0M) :rockon:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP might be half retarded (I've heard stories where people with brain disabilities can figure out how to operate and use computers).

Anyway lets help him out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM#t=2m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM#t=1m15s

Same quality as the videos OP linked, and Jordan still looks cat-quick in his 30's. :confusedshrug:

[eliteballer]

OP might be half retarded (I've heard stories where people with brain disabilities can figure out how to operate and use computers).

Anyway lets help him out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKMt=#2m57s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKMt=#1m15s

Same quality as the videos OP linked, and Jordan still looks cat-quick in his 30's. :confusedshrug:

Why don't you learn how to time links properly before calling others retarded:roll:

Classic ISHiot.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why don't you learn how to time links properly before calling others retarded:roll:

Classic ISHiot.

Links work fine for me? :confusedshrug:

Here's another video (digitally remastered) for your pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=555mEvV-61A#t=1m01s

[kennethgriffin]

theres positives and negatives. i agree. oldschool footage is slower

especially the dunk highlights. they have more frames per second in film. they can get smooth slowmotion dunks


this helped push the idea that mike could fly


but in real time jordans hang time wasnt as much like moon gravity as people think it was

[Indian guy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eIIUERDl8

Ummm, I don't know what we're supposed to learn from this video. It's a horrible angle and tells us nothing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-to7R2e44

Really? A highlight video from the season where he missed 60+ games due to a broken foot and was far from his usual explosive self? Mind you, he still does look pretty quick in this video, although ironically enough, you posted one of GD's videos, which are clearly sped-up.


So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose, way faster in the open court than LeBron or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.

In my experience, people who generally say this are those who've actually seen very little of MJ and are just caught up in the 'legend'. I don't think their opinion is based on anything tangible. But it's OK! MJ can still have an argument for GOAT perimeter athlete without possessing AI/Rose's quickness, LeBron's open court speed or Westbrook's explosiveness. I've never understood why he has to be the best at every single athletic attribute. He just had the best combination of all those things in that 6'6, 195-215 lb package.

[ShawkFactory]

theres positives and negatives. i agree. oldschool footage is slower

especially the dunk highlights. they have more frames per second in film. they can get smooth slowmotion dunks


this helped push the idea that mike could fly


but in real time jordans hang time wasnt as much like moon gravity as people think it was
You know this because you had front court tix for Bulls games back then?

[Spurs m8]

...and really any other player you only know or remember by highlights.

Highlight videos or even certain game videos can have messed up speeds and framerates. We've all seen it.

THIS is what Jordan looks like in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eIIUERDl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-to7R2e44

So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose, way faster in the open court than LeBron or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.

It's the same reason you see guys who actually played in the NBA like Barkley say things like, "LeBron's just as fast and athletic as Jordan, but he's 50 pounds heavier". A quote which by the way I don't agree with, but applies all the same. They don't have the same illusions that you do with videos.

Go watch the 93 Finals and hear them say, "They're putting KJ on Jordan because he can match Jordan's quickness and not be beat as easily".

The same applies to any player you primarily know/remember off of highlight videos.

It's like another poster once said: "There's a video of Wade on youtube that looks like he was shot out of a cannon".

Keep that in mind for ANY player you see in highlight videos.

Yeah, except people from the 90s actually generally agree he's the best, and its the ****tards who live off highlights and stories that don't know what the **** they're talking about.

Its funny too people can't get past being a homer and just admit Jordan was better.
I mean, in no world is Kobe better, so turn take the ****head glasses off and see shit for how it really is....i don't sit here saying TD > MJ...coz im not a ****ing idiot

[Spurs m8]

Also OP - tells us not to go off highlights, proceeds to use highlights to try and prove a point LMFAO

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

although ironically enough, you posted one of GD's videos, which are clearly sped-up.

Are they really? I watch a lot his recent highlights and they all look the same speed to me... Could be the new 60fps feature on Youtube.

[sportjames23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

Watch the link above. MJ open court is as fast as lebron and as explosive as westbrook in his prime. MJ's quickness is based on his explosive first step with his unpredictable acceleration and iverson depends on his quick, agile dribbles until his defenders lost their step.


Body-bagged. :cheers:


OP, you come at the (real) king, you best not miss.

[Marchesk]

The farther back in time you go, the slower the players look, which means the more you need to speed up the highlights to match the shot-out-of-a-cannon effect modern day players get with high quality recordings (and PEDs).

When Bob Cousy looks as explosive as Westbrook, then you've equalized the film speed.

[eliteballer]

Body-bagged. :cheers:


OP, you come at the (real) king, you best not miss.

The fact that some of you can't comprehend that video is sped up to a comical degree is frightening:roll:

[Indian guy]

Are they really? I watch a lot his recent highlights and they all look the same speed to me... Could be the new 60fps feature on Youtube.

Ugh. Hate the new 60fps feature. Not meant for sports, IMO. Makes everything appear slower and dream-like. If I see a video in 720p60 I just switch to 480p.

And yeah, GD's videos are definitely sped-up. Very noticeable. You can always tell by the speed with which the ball's bouncing or moving on the court. Particularly after a made or missed basket.

[Spurs m8]

Rent free

[kennethgriffin]

You know this because you had front court tix for Bulls games back then?


you act like this was a physical impossibility or something

its not that out of the ordinary for a 31 year old to have seen a bulls game live once in his life you know

1985 - age 1
1986 - age 2
1987 - age 3
1988 - age 4
1989 - age 5
1990 - age 6
1991 - age 7
1992 - age 8
1993 - age 9

1995 - age 11
1996 - age 12
1997 - age 13
1998 - age 14



and i live in ottawa.. theres a ton of teams in the north east

:lol

[Spurs m8]

you act like this was a physical impossibility or something

its not that out of the ordinary for a 31 year old to have seen a bulls game live once in his life you know

1985 - age 1
1986 - age 2
1987 - age 3
1988 - age 4
1989 - age 5
1990 - age 6
1991 - age 7
1992 - age 8
1993 - age 9

1995 - age 11
1996 - age 12
1997 - age 13
1998 - age 14



and i live in ottawa.. theres a ton of teams in the north east

:lol

Are kids just stupid at maths?
Or can they not get past the fact that the world was still a thing before they were around?

Selfish little ****ers

[DonDadda59]

theres positives and negatives. i agree. oldschool footage is slower

especially the dunk highlights. they have more frames per second in film. they can get smooth slowmotion dunks


this helped push the idea that mike could fly


but in real time jordans hang time wasnt as much like moon gravity as people think it was

http://media.giphy.com/media/tarn31SCK2v1S/giphy.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kgXNmO2T8Go/UpJtp9soaUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/Eqq0G7tEbLg/s1600/Michael-Jordan-All+Star+Dunk.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c0/da/d2/c0dad26cf562d556d8d8d667b8fb48cc.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/bGKBKt.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/V99Q1y.gif

>>>>

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3469537/walking-on-the-moon-o.gif

It's sped up doe.

F*cking butt hurt clowns. Stay mad :lol

[eliteballer]

Those gif's have absolutely NO bearing on how fast and explosive Jordan was compared to other players.

We all know he could jump.:rolleyes:

Then again, what kind of common sense and logic am I expecting out of a dude with a cartoon cat as an avatar.

[Spurs m8]

Those gif's have absolutely NO bearing on how fast and explosive Jordan was compared to other players.

We all know he could jump.:rolleyes:

Then again, what kind of common sense and logic am I expecting out of a dude with a cartoon cat as an avatar.

Yeh, and expecting logic from a Lakers/Kobe fan, on a Jordan subject, is really gonna be nail on the head :roll: :roll: :roll:

Clutching at straws here mate.

Also, on a scale of 1-10, how much does Jordan get to you on an average day?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Yes Jordan was slow and sucked at basketball.

[DonDadda59]

Those gif's have absolutely NO bearing on how fast and explosive Jordan was compared to other players.

We all know he could jump.:rolleyes:

Your shit was already shut down in the first reply, you're old news. I was addressing your boy Kenny. A and B conversation, C yourself out.


Then again, what kind of common sense and logic am I expecting out of a dude with a cartoon cat as an avatar.

Top Cat>>>Lottery Lakers.

But lemme guess, the Top Cat cartoons were sped up too? :yaohappy:

[sportjames23]

DonDadda with no regard for human life. :bowdown:

[eliteballer]

You dudes are wallowing in your own stupidity.

End of the day, it doesn't matter what you want to believe, or pretend to believe. We know which footage is sped up, and which isn't.:roll:

[DonDadda59]

You dudes are wallowing in your own stupidity.

End of the day, it doesn't matter what you want to believe, or pretend to believe. We know which footage is sped up, and which isn't.:roll:

I'm so embarrassed for you I'm over here cringing :ohwell:

Just let this one fade away from the front page. You should've just snuck out the back after Sekachu napalmed this shit in just the first reply.

[Mr Feeny]

OP might be half retarded (I've heard stories where people with brain disabilities can figure out how to operate and use computers).

Anyway lets help him out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM#t=2m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM#t=1m15s

Same quality as the videos OP linked, and Jordan still looks cat-quick in his 30's. :confusedshrug:

:oldlol:

[I<3NBA]

I watched Jordan live. none of these highlights bullshit.

[Round Mound]

Jordan is the fastest, quickest footed, most agil & body wise the strongest 6-4 3/4 ft SG to ever play the game.

[Spurs m8]

Jordan is the fastest, quickest footed, most agil & body wise the strongest 6-4 3/4 ft SG to ever play the game.

You sound a bit angry there, champ

[Gileraracer]

It's the same reason you see guys who actually played in the NBA like Barkley say things like, "LeBron's just as fast and athletic as Jordan, but he's 50 pounds heavier".


there was another difference ... let me think a second ... uhhhmmm...





oh i got it

2/6
6/6

:lol

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan is the fastest, quickest footed, most agil & body wise the strongest 6-4 3/4 ft SG to ever play the game.


Rather he is the best combination of all of that.

Jordan's speed is largely based on his unreal first step. He would just blow by people in his early years and in his athletic prime.

[kshutts1]

Jordan is the fastest, quickest footed, most agil & body wise the strongest 6-4 3/4 ft SG to ever play the game.
You forgot to mention that he's the...
goat shooter
goat rebounder
goat passer
goat scorer
goat defender
goat dribbler
goat competitor
never lost at anything in life

[yeaaaman]

Also OP - tells us not to go off highlights, proceeds to use highlights to try and prove a point LMFAO

That's what I didn't understand. I'm at work and din't watch any of the videos yet. Just thought it was funny he blasted people for going off of Youtube videos and then posted Youtube videos to prove his point.

That's not the best way to get your point accross.

[AirFederer]

There's nothing straight about OP

:cheers:

[STATUTORY]

it's the same hype about his 48inch vertical, all justified via carefully selected and cut video footage with camera angles that make him seem like he's jumping higher and longer than he really is

Jordan was a good jumper but nothing like what his fans believe. Most of his fans only know him through wire fu highlight footage instead of actual games

[STATUTORY]

http://media.giphy.com/media/tarn31SCK2v1S/giphy.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kgXNmO2T8Go/UpJtp9soaUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/Eqq0G7tEbLg/s1600/Michael-Jordan-All+Star+Dunk.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c0/da/d2/c0dad26cf562d556d8d8d667b8fb48cc.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/bGKBKt.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/V99Q1y.gif

>>>>

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3469537/walking-on-the-moon-o.gif

It's sped up doe.

F*cking butt hurt clowns. Stay mad :lol

look at how the camera pans up and stays on MJ's body, giving the illusion of greater elevation and hangtime

[DonDadda59]

look at how the camera pans up and stays on MJ's body, giving the illusion of greater elevation and hangtime

The conspiracy runs deeper than we originally feared :eek:

Sped up... slowed down with Spielbergesque camera tricks. GOAT phony.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/H3OuiJ.gif

^That broken glass was CGIed :mad:

[ShawkFactory]

you act like this was a physical impossibility or something

its not that out of the ordinary for a 31 year old to have seen a bulls game live once in his life you know

1985 - age 1
1986 - age 2
1987 - age 3
1988 - age 4
1989 - age 5
1990 - age 6
1991 - age 7
1992 - age 8
1993 - age 9

1995 - age 11
1996 - age 12
1997 - age 13
1998 - age 14



and i live in ottawa.. theres a ton of teams in the north east

:lol
There's no way you're 31 :lol

[juju151111]

Mj was at his quickest 84-92

[DonDadda59]

Mj was at his most sped up and camera doctored 84-92

Fixed.

[andgar923]

you act like this was a physical impossibility or something

its not that out of the ordinary for a 31 year old to have seen a bulls game live once in his life you know

1985 - age 1
1986 - age 2
1987 - age 3
1988 - age 4
1989 - age 5
1990 - age 6
1991 - age 7
1992 - age 8
1993 - age 9

1995 - age 11
1996 - age 12
1997 - age 13
1998 - age 14



and i live in ottawa.. theres a ton of teams in the north east

:lol

I doubt that you saw that many games.

Ottawa doesn't get that many basketball games NOW, can't begin to imagine how few were shown in the 90s. Perhaps maybe the prime time games on CBS or NBC, WGN would be the only other place but there is no WGN broadcasts here it's from Detroit tops.

And there wasn't sports packages in the 90s like there is now (at least not the early 90 and specially not the 80s).

And even if you somehow did watch all the games you claim to have viewed, you can't possibly comprehend the game at that age. Specially with the lack of coverage and analysis back then.

I call bullshit.

And you still haven't accepted to go play ball. Im in Riverside South, just let me know when and we'll try to work something out. To bad it's raining right now.

[Pointguard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

Watch the link above. MJ open court is as fast as lebron and as explosive as westbrook in his prime. MJ's quickness is based on his explosive first step with his unpredictable acceleration and iverson depends on his quick, agile dribbles until his defenders lost their step.
The video is a great example of the his freakish last step and great second step. His last step is why players are totally freaked that he's going to dunk on them.

[Dragonyeuw]

Wait..what.....MJ's speed and hops are an illusion??!! :wtf:

Those damn nightly WGN telecasts in the 80/90's! My childhood is ruined! :cry:

[DonDadda59]

Wait..what.....MJ's speed and hops are an illusion??!! :wtf:

Those damn nightly WGN telecasts in the 80/90's! My childhood is ruined! :cry:

His whole career was filmed in a lot at Universal Studios. They used wire fu techniques, tricky camera angles, and even had the dude who played Rafael in the live action Ninja Turtles flicks stunt doubling for him in a Jordan costume. The same guy sometimes doubles for Westbrook now.

How else can you explain this?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/PhTT2q.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/3KY1o1.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/D0UM3j.gif

Smoke and mirrors...

[sportjames23]

it's the same hype about his 48inch vertical, all justified via carefully selected and cut video footage with camera angles that make him seem like he's jumping higher and longer than he really is

Jordan was a good jumper but nothing like what his fans believe. Most of his fans only know him through wire fu highlight footage instead of actual games


:biggums:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ this clown eliteballer still harping on about how Jordan's clear speed advantage over all modern wings is an illusion. :oldlol: Like other players called him "black cat" for nothing. :facepalm :roll:

Dude keeps harping on about 80's TV broadcasts, how about these from '95-'98, where a 32-35 Jordan covers ground faster than you'll ever see Kobe/McGrady/Carter/Lebron do (the latter may have been able to in his '07-'09 days, but not from a standstill explosion like that):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARp3MYkeQM#t=1m41s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGTdIz2n8DY#t=5m23s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo#t=7m15s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xso1KXY7ok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xso1KXY7ok#t=1m18s (30 feet out to a dunk in 2 seconds)


And of course in his athletic prime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xso1KXY7ok#t=8m10s (32 feet out to a dunk in 2 seconds - at the end of a game, mind you)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubLR9cIvzLY#t=0m34s (32+ feet out to a layup in under 2 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9P_OY5bpc#t=1m07s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9P_OY5bpc#t=2m12s



I'm sure it's all an illusion, though. Sped up videos, all of them. Half the frame rate. LMAO @ this clown. :roll:

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

Next he's gonna tell us that this was just movie magic :durantunimpressed:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/DGlt7G.gif

Haters stay salty.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Next he's gonna tell us that this was just movie magic :durantunimpressed:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/DGlt7G.gif

Haters stay salty.

You see, now this, this right here ... eliteballer couldn't be ANY more wrong.

Jordan's strength and determination were other-worldly (rumor has it, he's really God disguised as a basketball player :eek:)

[STATUTORY]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/PhTT2q.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/3KY1o1.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/D0UM3j.gif



These gifs basically exemplify what the OP is saying, look how the camera pans upward to show MJ completely in the air, basically no floor in the shot, in order to make it seem like he's much higher than he is.

In actuality he was about 2 feet off the ground in the 1st gif

more wire fu than John Woo

It's not all the camera man either, MJ was a very theatric player that knew how to exploit camera angles to maximize the effect. He's always bending his knees or kicking his legs out to the side when he jumps, to add the extra illusion of height

[FKAri]

http://media.giphy.com/media/tarn31SCK2v1S/giphy.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kgXNmO2T8Go/UpJtp9soaUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/Eqq0G7tEbLg/s1600/Michael-Jordan-All+Star+Dunk.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c0/da/d2/c0dad26cf562d556d8d8d667b8fb48cc.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/bGKBKt.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/V99Q1y.gif

>>>>

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3469537/walking-on-the-moon-o.gif

It's sped up doe.

F*cking butt hurt clowns. Stay mad :lol

If Neil Armstrong wanted he could've bested MJ's 48 inch vertical on the Moon doe. Even with the extra pounds of gear.

[DonDadda59]

These two gifs basically exemplify what the OP is saying, look how the camera pans upward to show MJ completely in the air, basically no floor in the shot, in order to make it seem like he's much higher than he is.

In actuality he was about 2 feet off the ground in the 1st gif

more wire fu than John Woo

Legend has it that the Wachowski brothers tested out their bullet time technology on Bulls games first.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/pKANy8.gif

Same technology that was used to engineer MJ's career. :applause:


If Neil Armstrong wanted he could've bested MJ's 48 inch vertical on the Moon doe. Even with the extra pounds of gear.

Armstrong was an astronaut in the 60s, bruh. Dude couldn't get 10" off the ground with his Chuck Taylor moon shoes. Weak era for astronauts.

[CavaliersFTW]

That video is sped up. You've gotta be half blind not to see that:roll:

It's the perfect example of everything I mentioned in the OP.
You understand that speeding up a video would make ball physics look comical, and voices and narration raise in pitch? Even trying to fiddle with playback speed 10% raises the octave of voices and it would be noticeable.

Those videos aren't sped up. The reason end-to-end plays kind of start to look strangely fast in those, and the Dwyane Wade videos you mentioned (let me guess, it's from the Dwyane Wade clinic video?) is because those are 4:3 aspect ratio videos forced into 16:9 which bloats all things horizontal. It sounds dumb but I've noticed stretching the frame sort of makes end to end plays seem more impressive. I'm speculating but believe it is becuase it probably tricks the human eye into thinking more ground is being covered than actually is. The actual playback speed looks normal. I know, I edit video all the time.

You've actually accused me of speeding up footage with these same ridiculous theories. But I actually want to thank you for that, as because of you I was on a mission to get all my playback speed correct and discovered through shot clock analysis most black and white era footage that appeared to be "normal" was played back anywhere from 8% to 20% too slowly and I discovered this by syncing the shot clocks in frame with actual seconds. So now much of the content on my channel that I discovered this phenomena has been "sped up" back to real time :cheers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2lpbHuCtQ

[DatAsh]

Highlight videos don't look all that different to my eyes, maybe I'm just old though.

As someone who's seen all the players in question, none of these claims seem that strange to me. Jordan looks every bit as fast as Lebron in the open court.

He looks pretty comparable to Westbrook in the half court; Westbrook seems to start and stop faster, but Jordan looks to have a longer first step and and seems a bit quicker to the hoop.

Rose and Iverson are quicker to my eyes, but none of this is objective at all, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I was wrong on all accounts.

[eliteballer]

Not ALL highlight videos are at the same speed, that's just the point you dolts.

You can look up different videos featuring the same plays and you'll notice the player moving at different speeds.

A good clue is when watching the videos, don't look at just the FEATURED player but how fast everyone else is moving too.

If you're watching a video and some bulky PF is moving around like a wing it's a pretty good clue the video isn't properly synced.

You dopes are too caught up in slobbering Jordan's knob to think straight.

[RRR3]

Jordan has OP madder than Dick Cheney at a World Peace convention :oldlol:

[LongLiveTheKing]

The farther back in time you go, the slower the players look, which means the more you need to speed up the highlights to match the shot-out-of-a-cannon effect modern day players get with high quality recordings (and PEDs).

When Bob Cousy looks as explosive as Westbrook, then you've equalized the film speed.
:roll:

[andgar923]

So...... let's say for argument's sake that the film footage is sped up to make MJ appear to be faster, and the angles give the illusion of MJ appearing celestial.

How does one still explain that he STILL leaves defenders in the dust?

How does one manage to explain how he STILL jumps from the distances that he does so and have his arm high off the rim?

How does one manage to explain how he STILL manages to dunk on double and triple teams?

Or is all that CGIed?

I guess he never did dunk from the FT line

I guess he doesn't blow by defenders and beat an entire team geared to stop him.

:confusedshrug:

Reality check...

Faster footage or angles still don't change what actually happened.

No matter how fast one speeds up a tape, Lebron aint beating people with his first step.

No matter what angles the footage shows, Stockton aint dunking on a triple team.

[eliteballer]

So...... let's say for argument's sake that the film footage is sped up to make MJ appear to be faster, and the angles give the illusion of MJ appearing celestial.

How does one still explain that he STILL leaves defenders in the dust?

How does one manage to explain how he STILL jumps from the distances that he does so and have his arm high off the rim?

How does one manage to explain how he STILL manages to dunk on double and triple teams?

Or is all that CGIed?

I guess he never did dunk from the FT line

I guess he doesn't blow by defenders and beat an entire team geared to stop him.

:confusedshrug:

Reality check...

Faster footage or angles still don't change what actually happened.

No matter how fast one speeds up a tape, Lebron aint beating people with his first step.

No matter what angles the footage shows, Stockton aint dunking on a triple team.

You're COMPLETELY missing the point, as usual.

First of all I'm not the one talking about angles. That's other dopes in this thread.

No one is saying Jordan wasn't fast, athletic, or could jump high.

I'm saying that Jordan, just like every other player has lots of videos on youtube(NOT ALL BUT A LOT) that don't have proper synchronization with the framerates which make them look faster and more explosive than they really were.

Like i said, watch the OTHER players in the videos too. EVERYONE will look crazy fast in the messed up videos.

It's really not rocket science.

[TheMan]

Now the haters are claiming Jordan videos are sped up :biggums:

They scrapping the bottom of the barrell :yaohappy:

[DatAsh]

You can look up different videos featuring the same plays and you'll notice the player moving at different speeds.


Can you provide some examples? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just having trouble seeing clear differences in the videos posted so far. I've tried watching the players, the ball, the other players, the crowd, listening to the sounds, any difference I think I may see is usually grounded within the next few seconds and is generally well within the ranges of placebo.

Would be interesting to do some actual analysis to see just how many highlight videos are actually sped up. What would be a good way to go about that?

[andgar923]

You're COMPLETELY missing the point, as usual.

First of all I'm not the one talking about angles. That's other dopes in this thread.

No one is saying Jordan wasn't fast, athletic, or could jump high.

I'm saying that Jordan, just like every other player has lots of videos on youtube(NOT ALL BUT A LOT) that don't have proper synchronization with the framerates which make them look faster and more explosive than they really were.

Like i said, watch the OTHER players in the videos too. EVERYONE will look crazy fast in the messed up videos.

It's really not rocket science.

No YOU'RE missing the point.

People don't say he's as fast as Westbrook or Iverson because the footage makes him look fast due to it being sped up.

People say he's as fast as them, because regardless of how fast the footage is he zooms by the defense. The defenders are literally left behind as tho stuck on cement, even tho they're playing him 'for' the drive.

People say he's as fast as them because he rarely got played by people his size due to his speed. He'd get played by point guards and even tho those very same point guards played him 'for' the drive he still beat them.

We've seen him drive to the hole and beat collapsing defenders time and time again in a manner that only players like Iverson did on a 'consistent' basis.

Not to many players are played 'for' the drive and still beat it.

An entire team is geared to stop MJ's penetration and he 'still' beats them. That doesn't change regardless of how fast the footage is.

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukNKGNphoQ&ab_channel=nickykm

The footage in this video varies, from slightly sped up to slow mo and you can see him just get by the defense at will. The crazy part is the defense is playing him to stop the penetration and he still blows by them in many of the clips.

But speed isn't simply about penetration either.

It's also about making quick moves and leaving your defender, which is why MJ got so many great looks and why Kobe gets his shots contested more often. MJ simply made very quick moves that left the defenders flat footed many times. He gives a quick move and before you can gather yourself to move he's already jumping to shoot, and now the defender is too late to challenge. You see that in the array of shakes, and one dribble pull-ups where defenders are caught flat footed.

Most players don't do that with such consistency.

[GIF REACTION]

Mike is too small.

Log back on to your 3ball account andgar

[CavaliersFTW]

Can you provide some examples? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just having trouble seeing clear differences in the videos posted so far. I've tried watching the players, the ball, the other players, the crowd, listening to the sounds, any difference I think I may see is usually grounded within the next few seconds and is generally well within the ranges of placebo.

Would be interesting to do some actual analysis to see just how many highlight videos are actually sped up. What would be a good way to go about that?
Find me a video clip that is suspect to you guys with the shot clock counting down at least 2 seconds.

I can check down to the decimal how many seconds it took for the video's clock to transition from one second to another. That's how I discovered old footage is often played back too slowly actually. I honestly think this is all in eliteballers head, but I'd be willing to check some clips.

[CTbasketball92]

The conspiracy runs deeper than we originally feared :eek:

Sped up... slowed down with Spielbergesque camera tricks. GOAT phony.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/H3OuiJ.gif

^That broken glass was CGIed :mad:


Did anyone else notice that MJ took off from two steps inside the free throw line off TWO FEET


Like jesus, as a two-foot jumper i have to say, that is absolutely ridiculous. Being able to get that high from that far off two feet, it literally looks like he's levitating. I think MJ is unquestionably the greatest two foot jumper ever.

I didn't get the chance to see Jordan live in his prime (I'm 23) but I remember watching him live with the Wizards. What stood out was his amazing quickness and fluidity for his age at 38-40, he was still blowing by defenders who were playing off of him by 5, or 6 feet at will. He was just so smooth and decisive, he'd make one move and be exactly where he needed to be. Much quicker than 2011-Present KObe. And I'd imagine MJ was even quicker in 1995-1998, and even then, he was still getting by defenders at will. So imagining a 1984-1993 Jordan being as quick and more explosive than Westbrook isn't really hard to sell me on. He was definitely a better leaper, and was probably at least equally quick, while also having Kobe fluidity.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I think MJ is unquestionably the greatest two foot jumper ever.

In some ways, he is. In some, he is not. He has, by far, the greatest VERSATILITY in leaping off two feet of any player ever imo - he could get good air off a traditional gather step, a hop step in any direction and of any size, or a "quick jump" like for an offensive putback or as seen in this play here - just so explosively quick off the ground:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4#t=21m33s

Or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=0m08s (just absurd air without even bending the legs much if at all - all just fast twitch spings)

He is also (by far) the fastest of the great two-footed leapers, so he can cover a ton of horizontal distance in the air even though his absolute vertical off two feet might be 1-3" below a few others. That's what you see in that clip you posted - the illusion of him flying, cutting through the air.

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.


I didn't get the chance to see Jordan live in his prime (I'm 23) but I remember watching him live with the Wizards. What stood out was his amazing quickness and fluidity for his age at 38-40, he was still blowing by defenders who were playing off of him by 5, or 6 feet at will. He was just so smooth and decisive, he'd make one move and be exactly where he needed to be. Much quicker than 2011-Present KObe. And I'd imagine MJ was even quicker in 1995-1998, and even then, he was still getting by defenders at will. So imagining a 1984-1993 Jordan being as quick and more explosive than Westbrook isn't really hard to sell me on. He was definitely a better leaper, and was probably at least equally quick, while also having Kobe fluidity.

He definitely didn't do it nearly as much as when he was a Bull (especially pre-1993), but there were many times where he made young, athletic defenders like Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Ruben Patterson, and Ricky Davis look like they were in quicksand, just blowing right past them with the first step - no fancy ballhandling needed. Here's one such play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM#t=2m13s

[catch24]

In some ways, he is. In some, he is not. He has, by far, the greatest VERSATILITY in leaping off two feet of any player ever imo - he could get good air off a traditional gather step, a hop step in any direction and of any size, or a "quick jump" like for an offensive putback or as seen in this play here - just so explosively quick off the ground:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4#t=21m33s

Or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=0m08s (just absurd air without even bending the legs much if at all - all just fast twitch spings)

He is also (by far) the fastest of the great two-footed leapers, so he can cover a ton of horizontal distance in the air even though his absolute vertical off two feet might be 1-3" below a few others. That's what you see in that clip you posted - the illusion of him flying, cutting through the air.

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.



He definitely didn't do it nearly as much as when he was a Bull (especially pre-1993), but there were many times where he made young, athletic defenders like Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Ruben Patterson, and Ricky Davis look like they were in quicksand, just blowing right past them with the first step - no fancy ballhandling needed. Here's one such play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM#t=2m13s

^Only one person on this EARTH knows this much about MJ, and its hoopsencyclopedia.

Coincidence? I think not. :D

[OldSchoolBBall]

^Only one person on this EARTH knows this much about MJ, and its hoopsencyclopedia.

Coincidence? I think not. :D

I'm not hoops, but A) I've probably watched more Jordan games than anyone besides him (I bought/recorded ~550 of his games and have watched another couple hundred on youtube etc.), and B) I am a damn good basketball player, so I have an eye for small things in the game. :D

[DonDadda59]

Did anyone else notice that MJ took off from two steps inside the free throw line off TWO FEET


Like jesus, as a two-foot jumper i have to say, that is absolutely ridiculous. Being able to get that high from that far off two feet, it literally looks like he's levitating. I think MJ is unquestionably the greatest two foot jumper ever.

I didn't get the chance to see Jordan live in his prime (I'm 23) but I remember watching him live with the Wizards. What stood out was his amazing quickness and fluidity for his age at 38-40, he was still blowing by defenders who were playing off of him by 5, or 6 feet at will. He was just so smooth and decisive, he'd make one move and be exactly where he needed to be. Much quicker than 2011-Present KObe. And I'd imagine MJ was even quicker in 1995-1998, and even then, he was still getting by defenders at will. So imagining a 1984-1993 Jordan being as quick and more explosive than Westbrook isn't really hard to sell me on. He was definitely a better leaper, and was probably at least equally quick, while also having Kobe fluidity.


Crazy thing is he takes off from just inside the FT line but still finishes at the rim with enough power to shatter the backboard. That is borderline superhuman.

But I might have to give 'Nique the edge as far as two-footed jumping goes. Jordan could clearly jump out further, but he seemed to prefer one foot jumps. The Human Highlight Reel claimed two-footed jumps as business expenses on his taxes. :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not hoops, but A) I've probably watched more Jordan games than anyone besides him (I bought/recorded ~550 of his games and have watched another couple hundred on youtube etc.), and B) I am a damn good basketball player, so I have an eye for small things in the game. :D

Hoops had a good blog.. here's one of his latest entries: https://hoopsencyclopedia.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/espn-blows-the-door-open-on-kobe-bryants-clutch-problems-throughout-his-career/

[OldSchoolBBall]

Crazy thing is he takes off from just inside the FT line but still finishes at the rim with enough power to shatter the backboard. That is borderline superhuman.

Another thing to note too is that he gets enough air (as in most of his in-game dunks where he takes off of two feet from the dotted line or further out) to dunk the ball with his TRAILING hand, as his body has already cleared the rim. This is different from dunking it with your LEAD hand by extending your arm out in front of you. Here's one such dunk from Kobe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akMiX_FKCdQ

Note that his body is perpendicular to the rim and he dunks with his lead hand while extending the arm forward - big difference.

[97 bulls]

I got a question. If the videos are intentionally sped up to make Jordan look faster, wouldn't that mean that the defender in said videos speed is sped up too?

[DonDadda59]

I got a question. If the videos are intentionally sped up to make Jordan look faster, wouldn't that mean that the defender in said videos speed is sped up too?

:no:

Only Jordan is sped up. Everyone else is normal speed. Movie magic. :applause:

[97 bulls]

:no:

Only Jordan is sped up. Everyone else is normal speed. Movie magic. :applause:
Got it.

[eliteballer]

They aren't "intentionally" sped up(in some cases they are), it's mostly just cases of the footage being transferred or encoded improperly.

I've got an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

^That's the video the 2nd poster put up, which is laughably sped up.

Now compare to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TZRyfjZthE

Don't just look at Jordan, but ALL of the players.

[OldSchoolBBall]

They aren't "intentionally" sped up(in some cases they are), it's mostly just cases of the footage being transferred or encoded improperly.

I've got an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

^That's the video the 2nd poster put up, which is laughably sped up.

Now compare to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TZRyfjZthE

Don't just look at Jordan, but ALL of the players.

Jordan looks just as fast in that hesitation drive at 55 second mark of your second video as he does anywhere else. Also, here is the non-sped up actual game video of that Clippers dunk you said was sped up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5rQFf-EW9c&list=PL3D578D8828237185#t=7m20s

Still looks hella fast. I do agree that the aspect ratio/stretching in that video makes it look like more horizontal ground is being covered faster than it actually is in some case, but that wasn't the type of video you are talking about in your OP. You were clearly talking about normal videos of 80's Jordan games.

[eliteballer]

It's not just the aspect ratio in that first video. EVERYONE moves unnaturally fast.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

How was I "clearly talking about normal 80's Jordan video"?:roll:

[sportjames23]

eliteballer got bodied in his own thread.

Son, you woulda had a chance if you had made this thread about Lebron. You woulda had a case. And you woulda had more support.

Learn from this, grasshopper. It's not too late.

[eliteballer]

I'm the only one who's posted evidence in this thread:roll:

Go be a groupie to other posters elsewhere.

[Indian guy]

They aren't "intentionally" sped up(in some cases they are), it's mostly just cases of the footage being transferred or encoded improperly.

How or why does this happen? I'm actually with you. Majority of the videos of older games on YT appear sped up. And I'm not just talking about 80's stuff.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm the only one who's posted evidence in this thread:roll:

Go be a groupie to other posters elsewhere.

:whatever:

The ONLY thing you were close to being right about, is the stretched footage which gives the impression players are being put on "fast-forward".

Your original premise was torn to shreds, and you have YET to acknowledge videos (akin to the quality shown in the OP) showcasing Jordan's speed and vertical leep.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How or why does this happen? I'm actually with you. Majority of the videos of older games on YT appear sped up. And I'm not just talking about 80's stuff.

A combination of things really.

Throughout the years youtube has added various features to their video players. Deinterlace methods and certain codecs uploaders decide to edit their videos with can also have a HUGE effect on the original video source.

Aside from the videos w/ 60 fps and footage with hideous looking aspect ratios, I'm not seeing much of a speed difference. I have noticed that switching from a CRT monitor to an LCD with a higher refresh rate, videos do look smoother and less jittery.

[eliteballer]

:whatever:

The ONLY thing you were close to being right about, is the stretched footage which gives the impression players are being put on "fast-forward".

Your original premise was torn to shreds, and you have YET to acknowledge videos (akin to the quality shown in the OP) showcasing Jordan's speed and vertical leep.

I have yet to acknowledge videos showcasing Jordan?

You mean like the video of his 69 point game I posted a few posts above yours?:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have yet to acknowledge videos showcasing Jordan?

You mean like the video of his 69 point game I posted a few posts above yours?:roll:

Make sense much?

He was quick as hell in that video, and in the two I linked (same quality as yours) which are digitally remastered.

[Indian guy]

A combination of things really.

Throughout the years youtube has added various features to their video players. Deinterlace methods and certain codecs uploaders decide to edit their videos with can also have a HUGE effect on the original video source.

Aside from the videos w/ 60 fps and footage with hideous looking aspect ratios, I'm not seeing much of a speed difference. I have noticed that switching from a CRT monitor to an LCD with a higher refresh rate, videos do look smoother and less jittery.

What about when people post an entire game? I generally prefer watching those and some of them tend to look sped up. And if that game is on NBA TV(Hardwood Classics) sometimes, I make it a point to record it. And when I do watch it, it looks slower compared to the YT version.

[eliteballer]

Jordan was fast. One of the fastest SG's/players ever.

...but he WASN'T as fast as some videos can lead you to believe, like that video posted by the 2nd poster.

That's the whole damn point. No one's saying Jordan was slow.

[Smoke117]

Players don't "hang" in the air. That's just a term described for players with high verts. A lot of people really need to read a book on human biology. (and frankly how gravity works on planet earth)

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Players don't "hang" in the air. That's just a term described for players with high verts. A lot of people really need to read a book on human biology. (and frankly how gravity works on planet earth)

F = mg

[Asukal]

How or why does this happen? I'm actually with you. Majority of the videos of older games on YT appear sped up. And I'm not just talking about 80's stuff.

You mean the 60's too? Oh no wilt's already slow ass is going be even slower..... :oldlol:

Lazaruss gonna hijack this thread in 3... 2... 1... :rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What about when people post an entire game? I generally prefer watching those and some of them tend to look sped up. And if that game is on NBA TV(Hardwood Classics) sometimes, I make it a point to record it. And when I do watch it, it looks slower compared to the YT version.

An uploader by the name of "NBA Classics" posted heaps of full games on Youtube back in the day, and like you, the videos always looked "off" to me. The audio was rarely synced for one, but the speed in which players moved also looked a bit unnatural. Can't say for sure why that was, but I have read on other forums complaints about 2 hour, fast paced videos having weird 'artifacts' and glitching. Like...Youtube had technical problems re-encoding the file because of its abnormal size and length.

People that upload at really high bitrates with an average internet speed can actually screw up their videos. A balance between compression and size is what you should aim for.

[julizaver]

Jordan was fast. One of the fastest SG's/players ever.

...but he WASN'T as fast as some videos can lead you to believe, like that video posted by the 2nd poster.

That's the whole damn point. No one's saying Jordan was slow.

Man I got your point - but in most cases it realy seems (CavsFTW) that is eihter stretching effect (from 4:3 to 16:9) or either encoding/processing problems. And we all know that CavsFTW made a lot of youtube videos himself and he is very familiar with formating/encoding/syncs.

Not that speed up videos doesn't exist, but I also watch the posted highlights and find most of it genuine (with the above mentioned stretching effects).

[julizaver]

Did anyone else notice that MJ took off from two steps inside the free throw line off TWO FEET


Like jesus, as a two-foot jumper i have to say, that is absolutely ridiculous. Being able to get that high from that far off two feet, it literally looks like he's levitating. I think MJ is unquestionably the greatest two foot jumper ever.

I didn't get the chance to see Jordan live in his prime (I'm 23) but I remember watching him live with the Wizards. What stood out was his amazing quickness and fluidity for his age at 38-40, he was still blowing by defenders who were playing off of him by 5, or 6 feet at will. He was just so smooth and decisive, he'd make one move and be exactly where he needed to be. Much quicker than 2011-Present KObe. And I'd imagine MJ was even quicker in 1995-1998, and even then, he was still getting by defenders at will. So imagining a 1984-1993 Jordan being as quick and more explosive than Westbrook isn't really hard to sell me on. He was definitely a better leaper, and was probably at least equally quick, while also having Kobe fluidity.

I have watched MJ pre-1993, 1995-1998. And I am from the ones who doesn't like the fact that he returned at 38. I prefer to remember him leaving the game when still the best and after that game winning shot vs Jazz. That's how his career should have end and it was the PERFECT END to the PERFECT CAREER. I have watched some of his games with the Wizzards and he was what I expected from him .. MJ as all the humans finally got catch by the age. That's why we have Bull's MJ and Wizards MJ. He performed as good as an old man at his age could do, but finally he looks as a human on the court. He would scored 20 some points the first half (and at half time there will be a discussions that MJ started to look like himself) and then becoming cold in the second half. I prefer he doesn't quit in 1993 and play in 1994 and the entire 1995 season rather than his two seasons with Wizzards. He had a good chance of winning 8 titles in a row, had even better stats and cemented his place in the history of bball, not that he doesn't cemented already :lol ...

But on the other side his second return give a chance to the younger generation of basketball fans to see MJ play, his signature moves, turnaround jump shots and so on. So in your case it was for good.

[julizaver]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.
[QUOTE]

D.Willkins was the epitome of two foot leaping, even when he is in position for one leg dunk he still jumped two-foot twisting his body in the air. But in terms of leaping ability I think they are at least equal and I am not giving the edge to Nique. Probably the powerfull dunks he made tend to give the impresion that he is a little bit better two-foot leaper.

Carter is arguibly the best in-game dunker ever and he is an amazing two-foot leaper so you have a point. But even strictly in terms of that gather step it is very very close.

About two-foot leapers I could mention players like Spud Webb, Nate Robinson, Gerald Green ...

[Paul George 24]

Ummm, I don't know what we're supposed to learn from this video. It's a horrible angle and tells us nothing.



Really? A highlight video from the season where he missed 60+ games due to a broken foot and was far from his usual explosive self? Mind you, he still does look pretty quick in this video, although ironically enough, you posted one of GD's videos, which are clearly sped-up.



In my experience, people who generally say this are those who've actually seen very little of MJ and are just caught up in the 'legend'. I don't think their opinion is based on anything tangible. But it's OK! MJ can still have an argument for GOAT perimeter athlete without possessing AI/Rose's quickness, LeBron's open court speed or Westbrook's explosiveness. I've never understood why he has to be the best at every single athletic attribute. He just had the best combination of all those things in that 6'6, 195-215 lb package.
BIGGEST JOKE I'VE EVER HEARD

[JtotheIzzo]

...and really any other player you only know or remember by highlights.

Highlight videos or even certain game videos can have messed up speeds and framerates. We've all seen it.

THIS is what Jordan looks like in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eIIUERDl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TZRyfjZthE

So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose, way faster in the open court than LeBron or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.

It's the same reason you see guys who actually played in the NBA like Barkley say things like, "LeBron's just as fast and athletic as Jordan, but he's 50 pounds heavier". A quote which by the way I don't agree with, but applies all the same. They don't have the same illusions that you do with videos.

Go watch the 93 Finals and hear them say, "They're putting KJ on Jordan because he can match Jordan's quickness and not be beat as easily".

The same applies to any player you primarily know/remember off of highlight videos.

It's like another poster once said: "There's a video of Wade on youtube that looks like he was shot out of a cannon".

Keep that in mind for ANY player you see in highlight videos.

Dumb post with an agenda, but GODDAMN, I forgot what a killer game Craig Ehlo was having, the poor bastard goes down in history as a donkey when he was the only Cav who showed up and made multiple clutch plays.

Poor Ehlo.

[ArbitraryWater]

An uploader by the name of "NBA Classics" posted heaps of full games on Youtube back in the day, and like you, the videos always looked "off" to me. The audio was rarely synced for one, but the speed in which players moved also looked a bit unnatural. Can't say for sure why that was, but I have read on other forums complaints about 2 hour, fast paced videos having weird 'artifacts' and glitching. Like...Youtube had technical problems re-encoding the file because of its abnormal size and length.

People that upload at really high bitrates with an average internet speed can actually screw up their videos. A balance between compression and size is what you should aim for.

fck this channel was good... ugh, didnt download anything.. one game.

[ClipperRevival]

In some ways, he is. In some, he is not. He has, by far, the greatest VERSATILITY in leaping off two feet of any player ever imo - he could get good air off a traditional gather step, a hop step in any direction and of any size, or a "quick jump" like for an offensive putback or as seen in this play here - just so explosively quick off the ground:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4#t=21m33s

Or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=0m08s (just absurd air without even bending the legs much if at all - all just fast twitch spings)

He is also (by far) the fastest of the great two-footed leapers, so he can cover a ton of horizontal distance in the air even though his absolute vertical off two feet might be 1-3" below a few others. That's what you see in that clip you posted - the illusion of him flying, cutting through the air.

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.



He definitely didn't do it nearly as much as when he was a Bull (especially pre-1993), but there were many times where he made young, athletic defenders like Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Ruben Patterson, and Ricky Davis look like they were in quicksand, just blowing right past them with the first step - no fancy ballhandling needed. Here's one such play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM#t=2m13s

He got max height off two feet but he was also devastating off one foot. He used one foot jumps when he had a defender within his vicinity and he needed to get to the basket as quickly as possible. So his one foot jumps weren't about height but covering horizontal distance. And that's where you see the dunks where he jumps from 10-12 feet from the basket, gliding through the air. With his two feet jumps he's trying to get max vertical. Most of his facial dunks are off two feet.

[ClipperRevival]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.
[QUOTE]

D.Willkins was the epitome of two foot leaping, even when he is in position for one leg dunk he still jumped two-foot twisting his body in the air. But in terms of leaping ability I think they are at least equal and I am not giving the edge to Nique. Probably the powerfull dunks he made tend to give the impresion that he is a little bit better two-foot leaper.

Carter is arguibly the best in-game dunker ever and he is an amazing two-foot leaper so you have a point. But even strictly in terms of that gather step it is very very close.

About two-foot leapers I could mention players like Spud Webb, Nate Robinson, Gerald Green ...

Yup. Nique was almost exclusively a two feet jumper, which limited him as a player. He jumped mostly within a few feet from the basket, emphasizing max vertical. But his inability to jump off one foot meant he didn't have the ability to jump from a good distance from the basket and explode horizontally to the basket by trying to get to the basket a split second before the defender could. So great vertically but not dangerous horizontally.

[ClipperRevival]

The conspiracy runs deeper than we originally feared :eek:

Sped up... slowed down with Spielbergesque camera tricks. GOAT phony.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/H3OuiJ.gif

^That broken glass was CGIed :mad:

That is unfreaken believable. He jumped off two feet from about 12 feet from the basket. You aren't supposed to be able to do that. You jump from that far, you should be jumping off one foot, with the momentum of speed to help you carry you to the basket horizontally. But two feet? Meaning you lose the momentum of speed and have to gather and explode? Crazy.

[ClipperRevival]

The conspiracy runs deeper than we originally feared :eek:

Sped up... slowed down with Spielbergesque camera tricks. GOAT phony.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-14-2015/H3OuiJ.gif

^That broken glass was CGIed :mad:

This is one of the greatest alpha moments in history. Jumping 2 footed from about 12 feet from the basket and shattering the rim. And what does he do? Run up the court like he expected it.

[Dragonyeuw]

That is unfreaken believable. He jumped off two feet from about 12 feet from the basket. You aren't supposed to be able to do that. You jump from that far, you should be jumping off one foot, with the momentum of speed to help you carry you to the basket horizontally. But two feet? Meaning you lose the momentum of speed and have to gather and explode? Crazy.

All an illusion. MJ was really slowfooted with a 30" vertical. We've been duped!!

[Paul George 24]

All an illusion. MJ was really slowfooted with a 30" vertical. We've been duped!!
idiot

[Dragonyeuw]

idiot

Sorry, sarcasm wasnt obvious enough?

[Lebron23]

Sorry, sarcasm wasnt obvious enough?


The guy is an idiot, and a troll.

[Paul George 24]

The guy is an idiot, and a troll.
just like u,pauk :lol

[CTbasketball92]

In some ways, he is. In some, he is not. He has, by far, the greatest VERSATILITY in leaping off two feet of any player ever imo - he could get good air off a traditional gather step, a hop step in any direction and of any size, or a "quick jump" like for an offensive putback or as seen in this play here - just so explosively quick off the ground:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4#t=21m33s

Or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=0m08s (just absurd air without even bending the legs much if at all - all just fast twitch spings)

He is also (by far) the fastest of the great two-footed leapers, so he can cover a ton of horizontal distance in the air even though his absolute vertical off two feet might be 1-3" below a few others. That's what you see in that clip you posted - the illusion of him flying, cutting through the air.

But there are a couple of guys - namely Carter and Nique, who were imo better two-foot leapers STRICTLY from a gather step. Neither of them (Carter especially) could leap anywhere near as well off a hop step as Jordan could, or had that same "quick jump" ability. That's why almost all of their poster dunks come off a traditional gather step with deep knee flexion.



He definitely didn't do it nearly as much as when he was a Bull (especially pre-1993), but there were many times where he made young, athletic defenders like Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Ruben Patterson, and Ricky Davis look like they were in quicksand, just blowing right past them with the first step - no fancy ballhandling needed. Here's one such play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM#t=2m13s


Very interesting points. I'd say then he might be the most well rounded leaper, since I can't think of anyone who was goat like in 1foot jumping and 2foot jumping. Would you say that Westbrook has similar athleticism? He really reminds me of Jordan with his unlimited energy and explosiveness. Like a 6'3" version.

That clip of old Jordan was crazy. He went right by him. crazy

[eliteballer]

http://i.imgur.com/cGsaSCW.gif

Wow, look how fast that ref is!:rolleyes: :oldlol:

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan was the fastest two guard at his size

But the listed 48" vertical for MJ is something I don't believe ... If Vince Carter has a 43" vertical than I doubt MJ is getting half a foot higher off the ground than VC ... he's also not getting up higher than Spud Webb, James White, J Rich etc.

[3ball]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries


We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post) - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).

Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk




SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris



Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....

confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s


RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.

Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s

And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s



SOURCES:

Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
..http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf
.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/jFCuk6.gif


Highlight videos or even certain game videos can have messed up speeds and framerates.



MJ's videos don't need to be sped up because even in slow-motion you can see that he's BLOWING BY defenders.





So this idea some people have that Jordan was quicker than Iverson and Rose


Prime MJ isn't quicker than Iverson or Rose, but he's as quick or close to it, which means he has a big advantage overall, since he's 4-6 inches taller than those guys.





way faster in the open court than LeBron


An open court, full-on sprint is the one area that Lebron might match MJ.. But MJ is faster and/or quicker in every other area, particularly from a stationary position or changing directions.. Lebron is quick for his size, but not for guards.

Regarding leaping, Lebron matches MJ's one-legged leaping (they both leap from ft line), but MJ destroys him in two-foot leaping obviously and is quicker off his feet.

MJ's one foot leaping that matches Lebron's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635476&postcount=46


MJ's two-foot leaping that vastly supercedes Lebron's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635478&postcount=48
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635477&postcount=47






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/UAqJYz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/JMi1LF.gif.. at 35 yrs


or more explosive than Westbrook just needs to go away.



As for Westbrook.. :facepalm ... The dunk data in the previous post shows that MJ got literally 3 times as many dunks as Westbrook each year - Westbrook gets a small guard's dunk total, whereas prime MJ gets a big man's dunk total (like a kemp or blake griffin).. Even 35-year old MJ had 89 dunks (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), which destroys Westbrook's career-high of 59 in his rookie year.

Westbrook is like Rose and Iverson, where prime MJ was equal speed-wise, but he was 3 inches taller with bigger bone structure and massive hands.. Westbrook isn't physically capable of doing most of MJ's highlights - even at 35 yrs old (see 2nd gif above).
.

[Vaniiiia]

His whole career was filmed in a lot at Universal Studios. They used wire fu techniques, tricky camera angles, and even had the dude who played Rafael in the live action Ninja Turtles flicks stunt doubling for him in a Jordan costume. The same guy sometimes doubles for Westbrook now.

How else can you explain this?

Smoke and mirrors...
It's usually a swing and miss with you, but this shit is hilarious. :roll: