Who played against tougher defenders...Jordan or Kobe?

[orange_chicken]

Throughout their careers who had played against tougher defenders....Jordan or Kobe? I look at Kobe and noticed he went up against guys like Artest, Battier, Tony Allen but don't know much about MJ cuz I didn't watch basketball as a kid.

[kshutts1]

I didn't watch prime/first-3-peat MJ (started watching in '94), but I'd say that Kobe has faced tougher individual defenders, while MJ has faced better team defenses.

I could be wrong though, and hopefully some non-homer that has watched both extensively can shed some light.

[imdaman99]

Are you baiting 3ball?

[Trollsmasher]

Kobe

there were like 4 good perimeter defenders in the league in MJ's time with one being MJ and a second one Pip

[kshutts1]

Kobe

there were like 4 good perimeter defenders in the league in MJ's time with one being MJ and a second one Pip
Let's list the known good defenders? Only players that were likely to have guarded either player. Aka not primary post defenders.

MJ (I'll need tons of help here):
Payton and Dumars are the two obvious ones I know

Kobe (don't need help, but may forget some):
AK47
Battier
Bowen
Allen
Posey
Christie
Lebron
Prince
Bell
Marion
Iguodala
Patterson (was he actually good, or am I remembering him because he claimed to be the Kobe stopper?)
Artest

Not listing George, Leonard, Draymond, Butler and players like that as Kobe has not really had to deal with them.

[Levity]

add battier to that list too. great man defense on kobe, but mamba's gonna mamba.

[kshutts1]

add battier to that list too. great man defense on kobe, but mamba's gonna mamba.
Thanks. One of the ones I forgot, obviously, as he's certainly on that list.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Are you baiting 3ball?

Let's be real, it's fun seeing 3ball write his essays on here :lol

[G0ATbe]

Easily Kobe.

[Young X]

Let's list the known good defenders? Only players that were likely to have guarded either player. Aka not primary post defenders.

MJ (I'll need tons of help here):
Payton and Dumars are the two obvious ones I knowRodman
Dumars
Payton
Moncrief
Robertson
Cooper
D. Johnson
Starks
Christie
Lewis

[iamgine]

There were Dumars and Payton...also Alvin Robertson, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, Nate Mcmillan, Sprewell. I'm not sure these names measure up to Kobe's defenders.

Of course MJ faced much tougher help defense with Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Eaton, etc around.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Rodman
Dumars
Payton
Moncrief
Robertson
Cooper
D. Johnson
Starks
Christie
Lewis

Also add these:

Majerle
Pressey
McCray
Sprewell
Eddie Jones
McMillan
Derrick McKey
G. Wilkins
Bobby Phills
Derek Harper
Anthony Mason

And more I'm probably forgetting. All these guys were as good or better than several of the names on Kobe's list above.

[Trollsmasher]

Also add these:

Majerle
Pressey
McCray
Sprewell
Eddie Jones
McMillan
Derrick McKey
G. Wilkins
Bobby Phills
Derek Harper
Anthony Mason

And more I'm probably forgetting. All these guys were as good or better than several of the names on Kobe's list above.
they weren't

[DMV2]

A few more to add to list of perimeter defenders during MJ's prime

Stockton
Russell
Derek Harper
Ron Harper (ended up joining the Bulls 2nd 3-peat)
Xavier McDaniel
Mookie Blaylock
Vernon Maxwell

[Kvnzhangyay]

Never forget Kevin Johnson guarding MJ :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

they weren't

Yeah, they were. They were better than guys like Bell, Posey, and Patterson. And several of them were better than a few other guys on that list.

[Trollsmasher]

Yeah, they were. They were better than guys like Bell, Posey, and Patterson. And several of them were better than a few other guys on that list.
no

and if you want to argue that they were, you have to prove it, son

[DMV2]

Could be wrong but seems like....

Defenders during Kobe's time seems to be more one-dimensional. Primary defense-centered players.

Defenders during Jordan's seems to be more two-way players. Had a little more offense to their game than just defense.

[OldSchoolBBall]

no

and if you want to argue that they were, you have to prove it, son

Prove to me that they weren't. lol @ absurd claims for "proof".

[3ball]

.
Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe
.

[DMV2]

no

and if you want to argue that they were, you have to prove it, son
The top 10 defenders against Jordan were definitely better than Kobe's top defenders.

Glove, Rodman, Dumars, Moncrief, X-Man, Maxwell, Starks, Stockton, K.Johnson, D. Johnson...MJ's top 10, give or take.

vs

Kobe's top 10?

[Trollsmasher]

The top 10 defenders against Jordan were definitely better than Kobe's top defenders.

Glove, Rodman, Dumars, Moncrief, X-Man, Maxwell, Starks, Stockton, K.Johnson, D. Johnson...MJ's top 10, give or take.

vs

Kobe's top 10?
only bolded would be considered TOP 30 perimeter defenders in today's league

it seems to me that some of the old time "fans" can't really comprehend how much the defenses evolved for the better and by how much the demands placed upon the individual defenders were raised

[3ball]

it seems to me that some of the old time "fans" can't really comprehend



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe
.

[branslowski]

The top 10 defenders against Jordan were definitely better than Kobe's top defenders.

Glove, Rodman, Dumars, Moncrief, X-Man, Maxwell, Starks, Stockton, K.Johnson, D. Johnson...MJ's top 10, give or take.

vs

Kobe's top 10?

Stop it...Kobe's faced better defenders period.

Plus, alot of those guys in your post didn't even match up against Jordan alot...Like Stockton??? He barely guarded Jordan ever, GP did it mostly in 1 series, and Kevin Johnson was not even that good defensively and Dennis Johnson wasn't even a good defender after 86' and was like 30 when Jordan was drafted, the nostalgic level is at a all time high with you Jordan stans.

[DMV2]

:roll: @ Payton and Rodman would be Top 30 in toady's league.

Rodman, X-Man, Maxwell would probably get a lifetime suspension in today's league....so maybe that troll has a point.

[Trollsmasher]

[B]Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ

that proves nothing since those mostly weak defenders were competing for the All D spots with other mostly weak defenders

[Nikola_]

i remember one game against the spurs in first duncan season. i think mj went 12/39 or something like that. it was his worst game. he barely could hit the rim. it was i think sean elliott who made him work

[3ball]

you guys are all biased.

[branslowski]

you guys are all biased.

You just cherry picked one sentence of my post and then just posted a copy n paste not even proving my post wrong.

Nostalgic. :facepalm

[3ball]

Plus, alot of those guys in your post didn't even match up against Jordan alot...Like Stockton??? He barely guarded Jordan ever



You want a legit list - here it is:



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe

[Levity]

Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe
.

the first time you posted this, i was like, eh... but after that 2nd time, i was like :eek:

i was blind, now i can see.

all hail 3ball.

[GIF REACTION]

Kobe.

He went up against zones. When illegal defense was abolished in 2001, defenses took over indefinitely until the balanced was restored with the handcheck new interpretation rule in 2005.

[HOoopCityJones]

08 Celtics and 04 Pistons are considered two of the greatest defensive Teams ever and they handed Kobe his only known L's in the finals.

[jstern]

Kobe's defenders were handicapped due to the rule changes.

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/JI8uVUJ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-17-2015/FtdEQr.gif


i remember MJ's first matchup against the Spurs in 1998 season - he struggled (until the end of regulation and OT)



In MJ's first meeting with Duncan on November 3, 1997, he dunked on Duncan twice (both are shown in the first GIF above), then he hit a Ray Allen walk-off to send the game into OT (2nd GIF).. Then he DOMINATED overtime - here's the OT highlights after the walk-off shown above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsMYKweRIVQ&t=5m59s





mj went 12/39 or something like that.


MJ's high volume (12-39 FG) allowed the Bulls to control pace and stay in the game - specifically, his high volume spearheaded the Bulls' 26-12 on the offensive glass, which contributed to the Bulls higher offensive rating in that game (85.4 to 81.5).. Of course, with the Bulls' staying in the game, MJ's goat clutch was there to dominate and win it down the stretch.

Btw, in MJ's 2nd meeting with Duncan later in the year, he thoroughly DOMINATED Duncan and Robinson, scoring on them repeatedly in the paint, especially in the 2nd half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQePkBnD0vo





it was i think sean elliott who made him work


For his career, MJ averaged 35.9 ppg on 45% vs. Sean Elliot:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=elliose01

Despite his poor shooting in this particular game, MJ proved many times that he could maintain a decent FG% while shooting very high volumes.. Otoh, the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume... The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.

Otoh, MJ's elite mid-range and isolation ability allowed him to maintain his efficiency at higher shot volume - accordingy, he was SUCCESSFUL winning a championship while carrying his team at high shooting volume.. In the 1993 Finals, MJ averaged 41/9/6 on 52%, despite getting double-teamed incessantly.. Whereas Lebron couldn't maintain his fg% despite not getting double-teamed and having the most secluded isolations in the history of the game - he was just THAT bad in the areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation).
.

[stalkerforlife]

Obviously Kobe, but MJ is still the GOAT.

[GIF REACTION]

It's easier to guard an elite player with team defense. Taking away Illegal defense in 2001 allowed team defenses to defend individuals better.

The 2005 handcheck re-interpretation rules made it harder for individual defenders to defend, but it is always easier to defend an elite scorer with good team defense and not an individual defender.

[choppermagic]

Kobe had more tough defenders on him his entire career.

MJ faced a couple really tough team defences, but overall, his individual defenders were not as good as those on Kobe.

This does automatically not mean Kobe is better than Jordan. It just means Kobe has had better/tougher individual defenders on him through his career.

[bond10]

Anytime you compare MJ and Kobe...the "total" # of anything is so very flawed because Kobe's played a lot more seasons than MJ. Of course the number of good defenders would be higher for Kobe, dude's been playing against many generations of players.

Edit: Just saw 3ball's facts-based post. Kobe still comes up a bit short.

[Shih508]

It's easier to guard an elite player with team defense. Taking away Illegal defense in 2001 allowed team defenses to defend individuals better.

The 2005 handcheck re-interpretation rules made it harder for individual defenders to defend, but it is always easier to defend an elite scorer with good team defense and not an individual defender.

Kobe was never other's team's primary defense target before Shaq left the team. So removing illiegal defense from 01-04 actually benefit 2nd fiddle like Kobe while Kobe did nothing special comparing to his peer like T-Mac VC and AI while all of the other guy were other teams' primary defense focus.

The David Stern's league had always been babying Kobe Bean Bryant. Look all the timing of rule change.

[Dro]

.
Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe
.
Everybody talking sh*t about 3 Ball yet it took him to post one of the greatest defenders in NBA history in Sidney Moncrief........

[Dro]

only bolded would be considered TOP 30 perimeter defenders in today's league

it seems to me that some of the old time "fans" can't really comprehend how much the defenses evolved for the better and by how much the demands placed upon the individual defenders were raised
Dennis Johnson wouldn't be top 30? rofl...

[GIF REACTION]

Kobe was never other's team's primary defense target before Shaq left the team. So removing illiegal defense from 01-04 actually benefit 2nd fiddle like Kobe while Kobe did nothing special comparing to his peer like T-Mac VC and AI while all of the other guy were other teams' primary defense focus.

The David Stern's league had always been babying Kobe Bean Bryant. Look all the timing of rule change.
This is true and good that you mentioned this. But by the time the 2005 handchecking rules Shaq was gone. Kobe was 2nd fiddle but he did play in that 4 year stretch (2001-2005) where there was no illegal defense and the handcheck laws hadn't arrived yet. Funnily this is also when most of the team defense records were set and really the only defensive team to win a championship without any significant offense. In my opinion, the rules in this 4 year stretch created the toughest defenses in NBA history in regards to trying to score against them. Some people argue that the dominant defenses were a result of poor offense and game plan, but I find this hard to believe. It may have had some impact, but the rule changes had a far significant impact. Teams were slowly realizing the value of 3pt shooting when Illegal defense was abolished. Even in the late 90's, Illegal defense was being no-called. The trend of 3pt shooting was slow and steady to where it is today. It is fair to say that offenses have finally caught up to defenses. Defenses are now adapting with switching style of defense, and defenders that can defend a multiple of positions. Draymond Green is a prototype of this type of defender.

Went off on a little tangent there but basically what I'm saying is;

No Illegal defense + handchecking allowed = 2001-2005 = best defensive era = Due to rules favoring defense = Even though Kobe was 2nd fiddle, man defenders were still as free as they were in the 90's, and Shaq and Kobe never had the same defenders guarding them. I personally think full man to man defense freedom of the 90's/MJ era, + no illegal defense/stronger team defenses/schemes, is a tougher scenario than just tough man to man defenders in the Jordan era.

[LAL]

.
[B]Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ[/B



Dennis Rodman
Solid, but wasn't known to really stop wing players, his dpoy award was for his all round hustle on defense and boards.

Michael Cooper
Great defender, wasn't around when the 90s started and mj started winning.

Derrick McKey
:sleeping

Ronaldo Blackman
Why? And his name is rolando

Alvin Robertson
He was pretty tough.. but at 6-3 you can only do so much, especially against mj.

Sidney Moncrief
His last season was 91? And again.. 6-3

Eddie Jones
I gues so. Man his competition was pretty terrible after his first retirement. I remember watching mat maloney guarding mj almost a whole game.

John Starks
He was tough, and even tho they had serious battles in the past, 6-4 starks was mjs toilet paper. And wasn't even that good of a defender, that's why knicks rather put gerald wilkins on mj.

Doug Christie
So you put lakers/raptors dough christie on MJ's list and leave out sacramonto christie from kobe's?

Anthony Mason
Let's be real, he only started guarding mj in the 98 playoffs, but made michael work, i agree.

Clifford Robinson
Why?

Nate McMillan
Great defender, too bad he was older and injured in the 96 finals, Oh and he's short.

Dan Majerle
Yeah tunder dan sure made life hell for MJ a couple of times in the 93 finals, except it was all on the offensive side lol.

Joe Dumars
Yup. His best defender, despite the height difference.

Dennis Johnson
Great defender, couldn't handle mj because mj was much faster and eplosive and he didn't have laimbeer, mahorn and rodman behind him making sure he doesn't drive to the hole. Also he was short and wasn't around when mj started winning like most on your list.

Bobby Phills
Decent defender, shorter and perfect example of his competition in the 90's which was pretty laughable compared to now.

Paul Pressey
6-5 guy whos career pretty much ended in 90.

Rodney McCray

According to ESPN's Rick Reilly, Michael Jordan would absolutely destroy teammate Rodney McCray. For example, in 1993, when Jordan defended McCray during team scrimmages, he would talk some trash. But maybe Jordan went a little too far. "You’re a loser! You’ve always been a loser!’ Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now," MJ would reportedly scream in his teammate's face. While the Chicago Bulls did go on to win the title that year, getting McCray his first and only ring, the poor guy was a shell of his former self, averaging only 3.5 points per game in his only season with the team.

I think even your boy mike wouldn't put him on this list..

Shawn Marion

Kevin Garnett***
Man... mjs competition looks so weak you want to add these guys?


(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)
LMAO!! Yeah mjs most impressive defender after dumars shouldn't be on the list because he's not a sg or sf.. because rules are rules right?? :roll:



Puts garnet on his list :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe


Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m12s)
Andre Igoudala
Lebron James
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ


Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11221619&postcount=23)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett***

(no gary payton because he wasn't a SG or SF)


*** I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Vernon Maxwell
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill
Richard Dumas
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the above lists don't include many of the tremendous offensive juggernauts that MJ faced - this level of offensive skill isn't seen from today's 3-and-D robots: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe
.

:biggums: :bowdown:

Another post I co-sign 3ball in? WTF. Hell has officially frozen over, ISH...

[LAL]

And why in the ****ing world would anyone put latrell sprewel on mj's list and not on kobe? He was even suspended for the whole 98 season and he broke out in 94, didn't play him till 96, and all mj had to worry about is that he didn't score too much on him, but that warriors team back then were laughable and maybe only played like 3 games against him from 96 to 97. Remeber latrell on the knicks? Playing against the lakers in the playoffs in 04 with the wolves?

Ofcourse he shouldn't be on anyones defensive list to begin with..:facepalm

[LAL]

MJ's best 2 way opponents?? What does that have to do with tough defenders? You mean there were other all stars back when mj played? :eek:

Dude your a freak. There weren't as many though defenders as there are now, don't bring up 2way lists and random names on your stupid lists just because you want people to think he was actually perfect.

Michael Jordan was so good he would propably the best or atleast one of the best if he played today... but the only thing that makes me doubt that he would have been the best is because he was simply ahead of his time and his defenders at his position were not, except maybe 3. But relax, he was also human, just like todays superstars, except i feel he had a bit more luck, had almost everything going for him in the 90's.




MJ's high volume (12-39 FG) allowed the Bulls to control pace and stay in the game - specifically, his high volume spearheaded the Bulls' 26-12 on the offensive glass, which contributed to the Bulls higher offensive rating in that game (85.4 to 81.5).. Of course, with the Bulls' staying in the game, MJ's goat clutch was there to dominate and win it down the stretch.

Am i the only one that wants to slap him upside the head after reading this?

[Megabox!]

Michael Jordan was so good he would propably the best or atleast one of the best if he played today... but the only thing that makes me doubt that he would have been the best is because he was simply ahead of his time and his defenders at his position were not, except maybe 3. But relax, he was also human, just like todays superstars, except i feel he had a bit more luck, had almost everything going for him in the 90's.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAL]

I really believe past superstars were allowed to make waaaaay more mistakes like forgotten missed clutch shots, losing finals, bouncing out the playoffs (like 80's mike), having dominant teams and stuff like that and still be considered for the greatest player ever. But obviously everythings changed after MJ's perfect storybook career, superstars since then have received a much shorter lease than past superstars because of expectations like everything has to be almost perfect like Michael in the patetic 90's. But life doesn't really work that way does it?



Damn you 90's :rant


Rant over

[I<3NBA]

Teams single covered Kobe to double or triple Shaq. lol at Kobe facing tough defenses. Meanwhile, MJ got swarmed by defenders and got smacked around when he entered the paint. who cares about single defenders being better when Kobe was facing only single cover before Shaq left? ofc he's going to cook them. The GOAT faced the entire team defense and cooked everyone.

[Fire Colangelo]

:biggums: :bowdown:

Another post I co-sign 3ball in? WTF. Hell has officially frozen over, ISH...

This shows exactly how biased you are when he left out the likes of Ron Artest, Doug Christie, Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, Eddie Jones, Hinrich, etc for Kobe.

[aj1987]

Players who guarded Kobe:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Doug Christie
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Derrick McKey
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Bobby Phills
Dan Majerle
Cliff Robinson
Nate McMillan
Eddie Jones

[LAL]

Teams single covered Kobe to double or triple Shaq. lol at Kobe facing tough defenses. Meanwhile, MJ got swarmed by defenders and got smacked around when he entered the paint. who cares about single defenders being better when Kobe was facing only single cover before Shaq left? ofc he's going to cook them. The GOAT faced the entire team defense and cooked everyone.
Better teams were cooking michael in the 80's. But what you have to respect about those 2 is that they were dragging teammates like smush and corzine to the playoffs, but cooking players can only get you so far. Stop being a little brat.

[SamuraiSWISH]

As far as quality of individual defenders and team defenses? I'd say equal. It is all relative. Defensive rating, physicality, they all end up off setting themselves. At the end of the day

MJ was 30/5/5
Kobe was 25/5/5

[imnew09]

MJ had the best perimeter defender on his team. Scottie


Meanwhile Kobe faced Prime Battier, Artest, Ak, Prince, Tony, Iggy, ray allen, pierce, and many more

[LAL]

MJ had the best perimeter defender on his team. Scottie
Absolutely

[dreamwarrior]

Defenses never attacked MJ on the perimeter like they did (and still do) to Kobe.

[Dro]

Defenses never attacked MJ on the perimeter like they did (and still do) to Kobe.
:biggums:

[plowking]

Kobe. Team defenses are far and away better than any in the Jordan era.

I don't particularly care for abnormally rough defenses when at the end of the day, a foul is still called. The quality and structure, and not to mention discipline of defenses today are far and away better. Kobe would thrive in the 80's and 90's as well, more so than he did today.

[RRR3]

Swoosh MJ was 30/6/5

[Penny37]

MJ was dropping 40+ points on occasion during his stint with the Wizards. Kobe was, according to many people, in his prime (or close to) during that time.

If MJ was dropping 40 plus points on defenders like Richard Jefferson, I can only imagine what a prime MJ would do. Granted, RJ isn't exactly an elite defender but he is certainly no slouch.

[plowking]

MJ was dropping 40+ points on occasion during his stint with the Wizards. Kobe was, according to many people, in his prime (or close to) during that time.

If MJ was dropping 40 plus points on defenders like Richard Jefferson, I can only imagine what a prime MJ would do. Granted, RJ isn't exactly an elite defender but he is certainly no slouch.

That is a terrible analysis though.

You can say that about Karl Malone too who was even more successful than MJ in his years playing at 39 and 40. Dude was dropping 22 and 20ppg... Imagine if he played in his prime in 2002-03 and what not, he'd be dropping 45ppg!

See what I mean?

[Penny37]

That is a terrible analysis though.

You can say that about Karl Malone too who was even more successful than MJ in his years playing at 39 and 40. Dude was dropping 22 and 20ppg... Imagine if he played in his prime in 2002-03 and what not, he'd be dropping 45ppg!

See what I mean?
Sorry, that wasn't what I meant.
I'm simply saying that between 2001 and 2003, MJ faced the SAME defenders that a near-prime Kobe faced and averaged at least 20PPG in each season.

So the argument that Jordan faced far inferior defenders in the 90's is hard to fathom.

[kshutts1]

MJ's high volume (12-39 FG) allowed the Bulls to control pace and stay in the game -
.
I literally can not believe you said that. I mean.. I know you have your delusions; I think we all do.

But.. seriously?!?!??!!??!?! You argue VEHEMENTLY against Lebron and how his "low efficiency high volume" scoring ways are not conducive to winning, then you spin a similar game for Jordan to be a positive?

Please. Get. Help. Now.

[andgar923]

Are people forgetting the fact that MJ embarrassed the top Kobe defenders while in their prime while MJ was way past his?

And are people gonna ignore the FACT that defenders were allowed to play defense back in MJ's era.

[andgar923]

MJ had the best perimeter defender on his team. Scottie


Meanwhile Kobe faced Prime Battier, Artest, Ak, Prince, Tony, Iggy, ray allen, pierce, and many more
And MJ used to make Pip cry during practice.

And MJ also killed everyone you mentioned while way past his prime.

[plowking]

Sorry, that wasn't what I meant.
I'm simply saying that between 2001 and 2003, MJ faced the SAME defenders that a near-prime Kobe faced and averaged at least 20PPG in each season.

So the argument that Jordan faced far inferior defenders in the 90's is hard to fathom.


My point is, team defenses now are better than ever. I know a lot don't want to admit that, but it is just the truth. Game planning for stopping one player is a lot better now, and teams just give up less points on average and are far more organised.

MJ would be just as good a player, but he wouldn't put up the numbers he did in this era. People harp on about how he'd put up 40ppg in this era when a player like Durant who is unstoppable as a scorer was winning scoring titles with 27ppg. Teams simply gameplan better, have more history to look at, more examples how to accomplish certain goals. That is what happens when you have more time on your side and more to learn from. The game for the next 10 to 20 years will probably continue to get better. The individual players might not, but as a whole, the product will probably get better.

All the talk about lack of fundamentals in this era, yet in reality it is probably the most complete era of basketball ever.

[Rose'sACL]

And MJ used to make Pip cry during practice.

And MJ also killed everyone you mentioned while way past his prime.
this.i remember that leaked video where pippen is crying because MJ was making him look like james harden on defense. i lost that video. Can you post a link?

MJ fans are the most knowledgeable people on this planet and if you disagree with anything they say then you are too young to have watched the 90s NBA.

[andgar923]

this.i remember that leaked video where pippen is crying because MJ was making him look like james harden on defense. i lost that video. Can you post a link?

MJ fans are the most knowledgeable people on this planet and if you disagree with anything they say then you are too young to have watched the 90s NBA.
Doubt there's a video, but this is according to teammates and reporters

[plowking]

The MJ brigade on here, and in general are just absurdly stupid. The lengths they go to in order to make him look more legendary than he was is ridiculous. Wilt stans have been surpassed.

[Rose'sACL]

Doubt there's a video, but this is according to teammates and reporters
this is what i like about you. you are never biased and you only trust real sources.

[andgar923]

this is what i like about you. you are never biased and you only trust real sources.
Couldn't be more real than teammates and reporters, you're correct.

[andgar923]

The MJ brigade on here, and in general are just absurdly stupid. The lengths they go to in order to make him look more legendary than he was is ridiculous. Wilt stans have been surpassed.
You acting like a bitch

[Smoke117]

Andgar making all kinds of post to say the same thing...here let me help: "I suck Jordans dick and gargle his throat yogurt." You're welcome, bro.

[aj1987]

You acting like a bitch
And you're acting like you have MJ in your mouth right now.

Dude averaged 21 PPG on 48% TS, which is absolutely TERRIBLE. Sure, he had a good game once in a while, but lets not pretend he was "killing" defenses.

[DMV2]

Ever consider the reason why some of Kobe's defenders looked better than they is because Kobe took a lot of shitty ass shots?

While Jordan was always on point.

There's a reason why there's bee numerous Kobestoppers in the league and no Jordanstoppers.

Kobe's trash. He's a rapist too by the way, in case people forgot.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan and it's not even close :oldlol:

People forget that Kobe played a ton of the same players and under the same defensive conditions that Jordan did. From '95-'01 Bean played under the same rules that Jordan did his whole career... name his top scoring games in those 6 seasons.

Then take a look at Kobe (and every other perimeter player in the league) in the '05-'06 season alone, just after the no-touching rule changes were introduced. He had more 40, 50, 60, etc games that season than he had combined in his entire decade long career up to that point.

Jordan under those conditions would've sodomized the league Wilt in the early 60s style.

[GIF REACTION]

2001-2004 Kobe faced tougher DEFENSES than Jordan ever did. This CANNOT be debated. It was the period before 2005 when handchecking was re-interpretted and Illegal defense had been taken out of the game in 2001. Don't ****ing ignore this DonDadda. From 2001-2004, Kobe faced BETTER team defenses, and the same quality of man to man defense. The quality of defenders didn't change from the 90's to the early 2000's.

[DonDadda59]

2001-2004 Kobe faced tougher DEFENSES than Jordan ever did. This CANNOT be debated. It was the period before 2005 when handchecking was re-interpretted and Illegal defense had been taken out of the game in 2001. Don't ****ing ignore this DonDadda. From 2001-2004, Kobe faced BETTER team defenses, and the same quality of man to man defense. The quality of defenders didn't change from the 90's to the early 2000's.

Jordan was active during that time. :biggums:

At 38-40 years old with no knees he was still dropping 40 and 50 point games.

Now name all the best scoring games Bean had from 1995-2001 when he played under the same rules, against the same defenders that second 3-peat MJ did.

Take your time.

[STATUTORY]

Jordan was active during that time. :biggums:

At 38-40 years old with no knees he was still dropping 40 and 50 point games.

Now name all the best scoring games Bean had from 1995-2001 when he played under the same rules, against the same defenders that second 3-peat MJ did.

Take your time.

u must been watching space jame reruns cause that didn't happen on the court

what did happen was old MJ chucked his way to the least efficient 20ppg season in history of the game

MJ was guarded by midgets and power forwards in his prime

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

u must been watching space jame reruns cause that didn't happen on the court

what did happen was old MJ chucked his way to the least efficient 20ppg season in history of the game

MJ was guarded by midgets and power forwards in his prime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkvX356cpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jTqASSo4RU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcARNIt8Ydk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esljj9qzrDE

Look like 40 and 50 point games to me. :confusedshrug: How does that look to you, Don?

[ClipperRevival]

u must been watching space jame reruns cause that didn't happen on the court

what did happen was old MJ chucked his way to the least efficient 20ppg season in history of the game

MJ was guarded by midgets and power forwards in his prime

:facepalm 100%, pure ignorance.

[GIF REACTION]

It's as simple as no illegal defense + handchecking still allowed. You can't ignore this dondadda. It's not a coincidence that all the team defense records were set in this 2001-2004 timeframe. It's not a coincidence that a defensive minded team beat a team with Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton. This was the toughest defensive era. There is no denying this.

[GIF REACTION]

Go back to watching your Jordan re-runs while you have one hand jerking yourself off.

We'll wait over here in reality.

[DonDadda59]

u must been watching space jame reruns cause that didn't happen on the court

what did happen was old MJ chucked his way to the least efficient 20ppg season in history of the game

MJ was guarded by midgets and power forwards in his prime

Bean stans are gluttons for punishment.

NBA Record 51 points at 38 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw)

45 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSMeJ1fJWOI)

44 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0UTltX1oq4)

43 points 10 Rbs at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtYJC3mWo)


35/11/6 at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U)

Etc, and so on.

Now go ahead and list all of Bean's top scoring games in the 6 seasons he played under the same rules as Jordan.

I'll wait.

[DonDadda59]

Go back to watching your Jordan re-runs while you have one hand jerking yourself off.

We'll wait over here in reality.

Thought you were a Bron slurper, Ballin. Why are you riding so hard for Bean? :confusedshrug:

Anyway, if you'd like... since both dudes came to the league at the same age, why don't you compare Bean's first 6 seasons out of HS (playing in the 'isolation' era) to Bron's first 6 seasons out of HS (playing in the super advanced 'zone' era).

Kind of odd that they both had their career high scoring seasons at the same exact time, no? :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Go back to watching your Jordan re-runs while you have one hand jerking yourself off.

We'll wait over here in reality.

Hubie Brown will educate your dumb ass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

[Trollsmasher]

21 ppg on 48% TS

[GIF REACTION]

Try reading what I post you ****ing Jordan jocking morons.

2001-2004 IS THE TOUGHEST DEFENSE ERA OF ALL TIME

THIS CANNOT BE ARGUED. THE RECORDS SUPPORT THIS. THE RULEBOOK AT THAT TIME SUPPORT THIS. THE RESULTS OF GAMES SUPPORT THIS. THE FUTURE RULE CHANGES SUPPORT THIS.

2001-2004 is essentially the man to man toughness defense of the 90's, combined with the team defense freedom of modern basketball.

ILLEGAL DEFENSE WAS REMOVED FULLY IN 2001.

[DonDadda59]

Try reading what I post you ****ing Jordan jocking morons.

2001-2004 IS THE TOUGHEST DEFENSE ERA OF ALL TIME

THIS CANNOT BE ARGUED. THE RECORDS SUPPORT THIS. THE RULEBOOK AT THAT TIME SUPPORT THIS. THE RESULTS OF GAMES SUPPORT THIS. THE FUTURE RULE CHANGES SUPPORT THIS.

2001-2004 is essentially the man to man toughness defense of the 90's, combined with the team defense freedom of modern basketball.

ILLEGAL DEFENSE WAS REMOVED FULLY IN 2001.

YOU WANNA KNOW HOW I KNOW YOU'RE MAD? :mad:

CAPS.

[GIF REACTION]

Nice deflection.

[aj1987]

Bean stans are gluttons for punishment.

NBA Record 51 points at 38 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw)

45 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSMeJ1fJWOI)

44 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0UTltX1oq4)

43 points 10 Rbs at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtYJC3mWo)


35/11/6 at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U)

Etc, and so on.

Now go ahead and list all of Bean's top scoring games in the 6 seasons he played under the same rules as Jordan.

I'll wait.
The guy averaged 21 PPG on a horrendous 48% TS over the 2 seasons with the Wizards. He was chucking like crazy and was bound to go off.

You MJ stans are insecure AF. Nobody's disputing the fact that MJ is the GOAT, idiots.

Kobe had 5 50 point games, BTW. One on the dude who you ride constantly.

[ClipperRevival]

The guy averaged 21 PPG on a horrendous 48% TS over the 2 seasons with the Wizards. He was chucking like crazy and was bound to go off.

You MJ stans are insecure AF. Nobody's disputing the fact that MJ is the GOAT, idiots.

Kobe had 5 50 point games, BTW. One on the dude who you ride constantly.

Given the fact that he was 39 and 40, I would give him some leeway.

[aj1987]

Given the fact that he was 39 and 40, I would give him some leeway.
Again, I'm not saying that MJ is a garbage player or anything like that. I actually never did. Dude is one of my favorite players, but the insecurity some of these stans display is just... :facepalm

[West-Side]

Jordan was active during that time. :biggums:

At 38-40 years old with no knees he was still dropping 40 and 50 point games.

Now name all the best scoring games Bean had from 1995-2001 when he played under the same rules, against the same defenders that second 3-peat MJ did.

Take your time.

:oldlol: Is that why he had the LEAST efficient scoring season in league HISTORY?!!

22 PPG on 22 shots at 40%.

[GIF REACTION]

:oldlol: Is that why he had the LEAST efficient scoring season in league HISTORY?!!

22 PPG on 22 shots at 40%.
It really isn't hard to drop 20+ points when you practically own the franchise. Stackhouse of all people dropped 30ppg when he was given the license like Jordan was at the Wizards.

[STATUTORY]

Bean stans are gluttons for punishment.

NBA Record 51 points at 38 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw)

45 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSMeJ1fJWOI)

44 points at age 38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0UTltX1oq4)

43 points 10 Rbs at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtYJC3mWo)


35/11/6 at age 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U)

Etc, and so on.

Now go ahead and list all of Bean's top scoring games in the 6 seasons he played under the same rules as Jordan.

I'll wait.

20ppg on 22 shots, least efficient scoring season in the history of the sport

space jam be dat gud doe

[DonDadda59]

The guy averaged 21 PPG on a horrendous 48% TS over the 2 seasons with the Wizards. He was chucking like crazy and was bound to go off.

Name a 38-40 year old perimeter player with chronic knee issues who performed better Historically.

Or even a 100% healthy one. That would do too.


You MJ stans are insecure AF. Nobody's disputing the fact that MJ is the GOAT, idiots.

Who was arguing that, bitch? :confusedshrug:


Kobe had 5 50 point games, BTW. One on the dude who you ride constantly.

Here are the facts- Kobe playing from 1996-2001, playing under the same rules and against a lot of the same players that a past prime, 2nd 3-peat Jordan... put up only 6 games of 40 or more points. His high was 51 points (OT game), the same scoring high a 38 year old Jordan had in '02. :lol


20ppg on 22 shots, least efficient scoring season in the history of the sport

Bean at 36 years old- 22 PPG on 47.7% TS this past season.

Guess that modern advanced defense is too complex for Kirby's caveman brain. :yaohappy:

[tpols]

22 PPG on 22 shots at 40%.

http://media.giphy.com/media/aBooMpl2faiHK/giphy.gif








Mike exits the expansion Era and ends up looking like a taller Monta ellis :biggums:

[DonDadda59]

http://media.giphy.com/media/aBooMpl2faiHK/giphy.gif

Mike exits the expansion Era and ends up looking like a taller Monta ellis :biggums:

My dude, Bean just had a season where he shot 37%

This JUST happened. At age 36. Jordan was only a year removed from winning every major award barring DPOY at the same point.

:kobe:

[tpols]

My dude, Bean just had a season where he shot 37%

This JUST happened. At age 36. Jordan was only a year removed from winning every major award barring DPOY at the same point.

:kobe:

Kobe went undercover last year to secure the draft pick.. duhh...



And he STILL was more efficient than Michael Ellis. :pimp:

[aj1987]

Name a 38-40 year old perimeter player with chronic knee issues who performed better Historically.

Or even a 100% healthy one. That would do too.
Malone and KAJ. Stockton as well, probably.


Who was arguing that, bitch? :confusedshrug:
Just letting you know that you're being an insecure slut.


Here are the facts- Kobe playing from 1996-2001, playing under the same rules and against a lot of the same players that a past prime, 2nd 3-peat Jordan... put up only 6 games of 40 or more points. His high was 51 points (OT game), the same scoring high a 38 year old Jordan had in '02. :lol
Why is the cutoff '01? The rules might've changed, but '04 >> those other years defensively.


Bean at 36 years old- 22 PPG on 47.7% TS this past season.
And? Or did you fail to notice that it was his 19th season. Kobe put up 26/5/5 on 55% TS in his 14th and 15 seasons, while winning a ring.


Guess that modern advanced defense is too complex for Kirby's caveman brain. :yaohappy:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe went undercover last year to secure the draft pick.. duhh...

Dude could barely shoot 37% in an era where Steph Curry is an MVP :roll:

Superior defensive era vs beasts like Alpha Male Curry, Bean = inferior, rapist version of past prime Iverson.


And he STILL was more efficient than Michael Ellis. :pimp:

Jordan at 40 years old- 45% FG (AKA Bean's career average :oldlol: ), 19.3 PER, 49.1% TS

Bean at 36 years old- 37% FG, 17.6 PER, 47.7% TS

40 year old Michael Ellis>>>36 year old Rapist Iverson

:yaohappy:

[GIF REACTION]

See how dondadda and the jordan jockers have derailed this thread into a dick measuring contest unrelated to the actual question of the thread?

happens in every thread

[DonDadda59]

Malone and KAJ. Stockton as well, probably.

Malone is the only one in the argument, and he wasn't even a perimeter player obviously. But he managed to stay healthy until he was 40, then things went south.

Jordan up until the all star break during his first year with the Wizards was putting up 25/5/5 on 46% FG and Washington was in the playoff hunt after winning only 19 games the prior season.



Just letting you know that you're being an insecure slut.

How do you figure? I was answering the OP's question and discussing the issue with other posters until you came in here on your period to moan about things people weren't even talking about.




Why is the cutoff '01?

Haven't you read anything ImStillTrollin has posted? The Illegal Defense era ended after the '01 season, then Bean had no issue getting 40-50 point games (especially after the '05-'06 rule changes). But prior to that, from '96-'01, during the illegal defense era, he only had 1 50 point game and 5 40 point games. That's all he could muster playing under similar circumstances to a past prime Jordan.


The rules might've changed, but '04 >> those other years defensively.

Any empirical proof or otherwise to back that up? :confusedshrug:



See how dondadda and the jordan jockers have derailed this thread into a dick measuring contest unrelated to the actual question of the thread?

happens in every thread

Only thing that derailed this thread was you getting herbed as always.

[tpols]

Dude could barely shoot 37% in an era where Steph Curry is an MVP :roll:

Superior defensive era vs beasts like Alpha Male Curry, Bean = inferior, rapist version of past prime Iverson.



Jordan at 40 years old- 45% FG (AKA Bean's career average :oldlol: ), 19.3 PER, 49.1% TS

Bean at 36 years old- 37% FG, 17.6 PER, 47.7% TS

40 year old Michael Ellis>>>36 year old Rapist iverson

:yaohappy:

Don't go there bro. Kobe comes home to some of the most luxurious and pristine puss EVERY night. hes an upstanding and educated individual. He is not out in some run down Virginia club, burying his face in the ass of some 45 year old worn out stripper every night like iverson is. So fk off.:rolleyes:

[Wade's Rings]

Don't go there bro. Kobe comes home to some of the most luxurious and pristine puss EVERY night. hes an upstanding and educated individual. He is not out in some run down Virginia club, burying his face in the ass of some 45 year old worn out stripper every night like iverson is. So fk off.:rolleyes:

:oldlol:

[GIF REACTION]

Yes, illegal defense was getting no-called a lot towards the late 90's

But it wasn't til Illegal defense was OFFICIALLY revoked in 2001, that defenses league wide started improving in team defense aspects.

[DonDadda59]

Don't go there bro. Kobe comes home to some of the most luxurious and pristine puss EVERY night. hes an upstanding and educated individual. He is not out in some run down Virginia club, burying his face in the ass of some 45 year old worn out stripper every night like iverson is. So fk off.:rolleyes:

Only when it's willing... which is almost never :crazysam:


"Semen samples and pubic hair from the underwear [Katelyn Faber] wore that night suggested that she had been with three different men within three days of the encounter."

Yuck.


Yes, illegal defense was getting no-called a lot towards the late 90's

But it wasn't til Illegal defense was OFFICIALLY revoked in 2001, that defenses league wide started improving in team defense aspects.

Prove it.

[STATUTORY]

"Semen samples and pubic hair from the underwear [Katelyn Faber] wore that night suggested that she had been with three different men within three days of the encounter."
Yuck.


MJ fans really wanna get started on that?

MJ so thirsty he put a ring on this just to get sme light skin *****

http://www.divorcedebbie.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/michael-jordan-juanita.jpg

[Richesly]

Let's list the known good defenders? Only players that were likely to have guarded either player. Aka not primary post defenders.

MJ (I'll need tons of help here):
Payton and Dumars are the two obvious ones I know

Kobe (don't need help, but may forget some):
AK47
Battier
Bowen
Allen
Posey
Christie
Lebron
Prince
Bell
Marion
Iguodala
Patterson (was he actually good, or am I remembering him because he claimed to be the Kobe stopper?)
Artest

Not listing George, Leonard, Draymond, Butler and players like that as Kobe has not really had to deal with them.

Dahntay Jones played the best defense on Kobe as humanly possible.

Best Hawk game ever.