Peak MJ vs Peak Kobe one-on-one

[RRR3]

Who you got?

[ShawkFactory]

It's MJ.

But holy shit

[pauk]

MJ, but i wouldnt be surprised at all if Kobe won.

[I Love the Game]

1 on 1 I don't think either guy really has an advantage over the other. Any weaknesses one may have is negated by a strength in their skill set or weakness in the other's game. I feel like every game would be a 50/50 shot at who wins.

If I had to pick in a best of three series...as much as I love Kobe I gotta go with MJ because he is the GOAT. If MJ wins that first game tho I don't doubt Kobe would go into mamba mode and steal the next two just to prove a point.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So '90 to '93 Jordan vs '06 to '09 Kobe? MJ. Comparable refinement of skills. Superior athleticism. Better defender by far. Peak MJ is like the best of Kobe and Wade combined. Kobe will absolutely hang, and win some games.

[Batzboy]

The black guy.

[Batzboy]

The black guy.
http://pa1.narvii.com/5749/4d9f5f39b263c23989383138d664a118c8a97174_hq.gif

[RRR3]

The black guy.
:applause:

[Prometheus]

If they play 99 games, I think Jordan will win 50 and Kobe will win 49.

[inclinerator]

every game would probably be 10-11, that;'s how games usually go with pros

even some scrub managed to get 7 points against a 37 yo jordan

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pros will hang in one on one's regardless.

[Angel Face]

As MJ said, Kobe will have the best chance beating him because he stole his moves. Both are the most skilled one on one players that I've seen. At the end of the day Jordan's superior athleticism, combined with skills will be too much for Kobe to handle.

MJ no doubt will win but Kobe will put up a good fight.

[eliteballer]

College age Stackhouse beat Jordan on on one.

Freaking Scott Burrell almost beat him.

1 on 1 is a different animal than a game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

College age Stackhouse beat Jordan on on one.

Freaking Scott Burrell almost beat him.

1 on 1 is a different animal than a game.
I'm sure there has been fellow pros to beat Kobe in one on one too. .Doesn't mean they beat him more often than the other way around. It will happen against other pros. You pretending it hasn't happened to him as well is hilarious. Delusional too.

[G0ATbe]

Well seeing as Jordan himself said Kobe would rape him 1 on 1...

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well seeing as Jordan himself said Kobe would rape him 1 on 1...

im not sure if that's exactly what he said

[RRR3]

Lol whose alt is goatbe

[ClipperRevival]

I think MJ wins 7 out of 10 times. His superior quickness and explosiveness gives him a clear edge on both ends. This is one on one, meaning no help so that advantage in quickness really matters. MJ is unguardable from the triple threat position. The games Kobe wins is when he has his outside shot going. But on a play by play basis, MJ holds the advantage. When two guys are this skilled, the difference in quickness and explosiveness can be the difference.

I would've paid good money to see them play. There would've been some blood.

[WayOfWade]

I don't know who would win, but Chalmers would take them both down

[RRR3]

I don't know who would win, but Chalmers would take them both down
Obviously.

Let's not be unfair and bring The Great Chalmers into this, though.

[Paul George 24]

JORDAN.............:cheers:

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Kobe 65% of the time.

[plowking]

College age Stackhouse beat Jordan on on one.

Freaking Scott Burrell almost beat him.

1 on 1 is a different animal than a game.

Exactly.

People act as if MJ is the best 1 on 1 player in the world. You ask this question on here and people act insulted if you don't say MJ.

Kareem and Shaq would handle both these guys in a one on one game more likely than not.

In a serious game of one on one, there is no jumpshots or driving. Just a whole lot of backing down, and keeping the ball secure. You bet your house on a big SF or mobile PF winning every time.

I'd put my money on someone like Blake Griffin beating the majority of the league if there was a battle royal type situation.

[ekosky]

Kevin Durant would probably be the GOAT 1-on-1 player. Not even being biased or anything. It is what it is.

[jstern]

I'll go with MJ. He just has a superior decision making, reflexes, responsiveness spontaneousness. When I watch Kobe playing one on one, I see a very skilled guy who has practice a lot of moves. In doing so his one on one seem more planned out. He gets the ball and decides that he's going to this and that. And sometimes that doesn't come out as smoothly. While Jordan, when you see him playing, it's more of a blank focused mind, where everything is reaction, after reaction to the defense.

[ClipperRevival]

Exactly.

People act as if MJ is the best 1 on 1 player in the world. You ask this question on here and people act insulted if you don't say MJ.

Kareem and Shaq would handle both these guys in a one on one game more likely than not.

In a serious game of one on one, there is no jumpshots or driving. Just a whole lot of backing down, and keeping the ball secure. You bet your house on a big SF or mobile PF winning every time.

I'd put my money on someone like Blake Griffin beating the majority of the league if there was a battle royal type situation.

I don't know why you would say there would be no jumpshots or driving in a serious one on one game. Yes, if your drive or jumpshot isn't effective, the last resort is to back your man down and get off a close distance shot but we are talking about two of the greatest PERIMETER iso scorers ever. Both would work off the triple threat position after getting the ball up top. But players are so good offensively at the NBA that the defender is really at the mercy of the offensive player. And that is exactly why MJ has a distinct advantage. His superior quickness can't be underestimated. It would positively impact both his offense (devastating from the triple threat position, first step, change of direction) and defense (keep his man in front of him).

If they played 100 times, of course Kobe wins his share. I just think MJ would win a good deal more. He was a more impactful player on a play by play basis on both ends because of his superior athleticism.

[LoneyROY7]

Kevin Durant would probably be the GOAT 1-on-1 player. Not even being biased or anything. It is what it is.

Agreed. Not sure anyone in the history of the NBA could really check him. He's just too much of a mismatch.

[ClipperRevival]

I'll go with MJ. He just has a superior decision making, reflexes, responsiveness spontaneousness. When I watch Kobe playing one on one, I see a very skilled guy who has practice a lot of moves. In doing so his one on one seem more planned out. He gets the ball and decides that he's going to this and that. And sometimes that doesn't come out as smoothly. While Jordan, when you see him playing, it's more of a blank focused mind, where everything is reaction, after reaction to the defense.

MJ's game is based on quick, explosive moves. He plants and explodes. There is very little subtleness to his game. Even when he changes directions, he does it decisively and with quickness.

Kobe is a bit more calculated because he isn't as explosive as MJ. So he can't just dictate to the D what he's going to do like MJ with his first step and quickness but has to kind of work off the defender and read his defender and react to how the defender is reacting to his moves. And Kobe might might be the best ever at that when he is isolated against a set defender, in the perimeter, with a live dribble.

But MJ didn't need to get as cute because he had the natural ability that could help him get separation off the triple threat.

[jstern]

MJ's game is based on quick, explosive moves. He plants and explodes. There is very little subtleness to his game. Even when he changes directions, he does it decisively and with quickness.

Kobe is a bit more calculated because he isn't as explosive as MJ. So he can't just dictate to the D what he's going to do like MJ with his first step and quickness but has to kind of work off the defender and read his defender and react to how the defender is reacting to his moves. And Kobe might might be the best ever at that when he is isolated against a set defender, in the perimeter, with a live dribble.

But MJ didn't need to get as cute because he had the natural ability that could help him get separation off the triple threat.
I wish I had example of what's on my mind in terms of Jordan's decision making reflexes, since it has to do with how he reacts to double and triple teams, and less about superior speed and quickness.

It's something subtle. Particularly this one play in 91 when a defender was running to double team him, and he reacted with this little hop to his left, that while might be nothing to anyone watching, left me like, wtf.

It was a highly skilled combination of great reflexes, and an unnoticeable, unclassified, footwork. Repetitive practicing it is not going to teach that reaction. Repetitive practice would probably make that little hop harder since the muscle memory would probably make the player react in a more limited way. In this particular play.

[GreggPopazit]

Well seeing as Jordan himself said Kobe would rape him 1 on 1...

Literally.

[ClipperRevival]

I wish I had example of what's on my mind in terms of Jordan's decision making reflexes, since it has to do with how he reacts to double and triple teams, and less about superior speed and quickness.

It's something subtle. Particularly this one play in 91 when a defender was running to double team him, and he reacted with this little hop to his left, that while might be nothing to anyone watching, left me like, wtf.

It was a highly skilled combination of great reflexes, and an unnoticeable, unclassified, footwork. Repetitive practicing it is not going to teach that reaction. Repetitive practice would probably make that little hop harder since the muscle memory would probably make the player react in a more limited way. In this particular play.

MJ definitely could be subtle when he needed to be. You can go to Youtube and find videos of MJ doing everything imaginable. But I was just describing his general style of play. At his core, he wanted to devastate you with his quickness and explosion. He was a plant and explode type player. Sure, he could change speeds and give you hesitations when needed but a lot of times, he didn't need to dig that deep into his bag of tricks to get separation. His first step and jab step were so devastating.

[jstern]

MJ definitely could be subtle when he needed to be. You can go to Youtube and find videos of MJ doing everything imaginable. But I was just describing his general style of play. At his core, he wanted to devastate you with his quickness and explosion. He was a plant and explode type player. Sure, he could change speeds and give you hesitations when needed but a lot of times, he didn't need to dig that deep into his bag of tricks to get separation. His first step and jab step were so devastating.

Yes, it was a good description.

[poido123]

Close.

It could go either way honestly

[Lebron23]

Jordan would rape Kobe who didn't deserve some of his All NBA Defensive Team awards.

[Gileraracer]

Jordan would rape Kobe who didn't deserve some of his All NBA Defensive Team awards.

typical LeBald stan

[OldSchoolBBall]

I wish I had example of what's on my mind in terms of Jordan's decision making reflexes, since it has to do with how he reacts to double and triple teams, and less about superior speed and quickness.

It's something subtle. Particularly this one play in 91 when a defender was running to double team him, and he reacted with this little hop to his left, that while might be nothing to anyone watching, left me like, wtf.

It was a highly skilled combination of great reflexes, and an unnoticeable, unclassified, footwork. Repetitive practicing it is not going to teach that reaction. Repetitive practice would probably make that little hop harder since the muscle memory would probably make the player react in a more limited way. In this particular play.

I know exactly what you're talking about and can probably post dozens of plays illustrating it. Of the all-time greats, only Bird had a similar ability to rapidly react appropriately to any sort of defense.

[Rose'sACL]

lebron would be the wing that would win against jordan 1-on-1, not kobe.
jordan and kobe were nearly the same height with jordan being more skilled. there is no contest. Lebron is not as skilled as jordan but he has physical advantages over jordan which become even bigger advatages in a game of 1-on-1.

[pastis]

lets be honest: its not like the typical 1n1 is there to show the better dribbling or handling skills. the better shooter wins. step back, a little space and bang. posting up, turn around, bang.
thats 1n1.

so i would give jordan the edge, but kobe could do it also.

[Dragonyeuw]

I wish I had example of what's on my mind in terms of Jordan's decision making reflexes, since it has to do with how he reacts to double and triple teams, and less about superior speed and quickness.

It's something subtle. Particularly this one play in 91 when a defender was running to double team him, and he reacted with this little hop to his left, that while might be nothing to anyone watching, left me like, wtf.

It was a highly skilled combination of great reflexes, and an unnoticeable, unclassified, footwork. Repetitive practicing it is not going to teach that reaction. Repetitive practice would probably make that little hop harder since the muscle memory would probably make the player react in a more limited way. In this particular play.

MJ often used his defender's momentum against them, that and he used alot of body/head/shoulder fakes to act like he going one way, then reverse and go the other. It was very subtle and required much less energy than having to create with a live dribble like most great 2-guards post-MJ did/do. It helped that he was so naturally quick,explosive and deadly with his first step either direction and ability to finish, that every little twitch you reacted to.

I've watched a good bit of MJ vids the past few times, and one thing I was reminded of was the simplicity in how he scored sometimes, his off the ball play, and how sharp his moves were even as he got older. I actually appreciate 2nd 3peat MJ more than peak MJ now, peak may have been more 'fun' to watch from an athletic/explosive standpoint, but there's something special about seeing older MJ just out-think younger defenders.

Check out the vid here, this is 35 year old MJ and he's still incredibly sharp and quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y

Look at the move at 1:41 when Ray Allen was guarding him: he passed off, went right and noticed that Allen's back was mostly turned, reversed and went left with a quick step, short hop, catch and shoot, Allen was completely lost on the play. Just incredibly nuanced, sharp and precise movements, no wasted motion or iso dribbling needed to get off an uncontested shot.

Here's another one, peak MJ with a 50+ game mostly off jumpshots and simple fundamental moves, and it doesn't even feel as though he's particularly gunning/chucking shots, just another day at the office:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1a-B8y3WIU

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ and Kobe will take turns beating each other. That's the fairest stance to take on the subject. I will say this, because of his athletic advantages I would take MJ more often than not, but if Kobe has one of those days where he's in NBA Jam mode, MJ's not beating him. The reverse is also true, obviously...

[ImKobe]

How would you not pick peak Kobe after seeing him outscore a Finals team all by himself in 3 quarters of basketball.

I see them taking turns scoring on eachother until Kobe just gives 0 f"cks and starts swishing fadeaway 3s to pull away.

[ImKobe]

Agreed. Not sure anyone in the history of the NBA could really check him. He's just too much of a mismatch.

Chris Paul had no problems guarding him...

[West-Side]

Jordan would rape Kobe who didn't deserve some of his All NBA Defensive Team awards.

Of course this moron comes in and ruins a good thread.

I am leaning towards Jordan because of his superior athletic ability and defense. Kobe was a better long range shooter and I feel like he had slightly better footwork and creativity.

Up to 11; I think every game will be like 11-9 or 11-10.
I say Jordan win 6/10 games. But who knows...

[ShawkFactory]

How would you not pick peak Kobe after seeing him outscore a Finals team all by himself in 3 quarters of basketball.

I see them taking turns scoring on eachother until Kobe just gives 0 f"cks and starts swishing fadeaway 3s to pull away.
Are we assuming he'd be that hot with Jordan on him?

[kshutts1]

When people reference Jordan's advantage in quickness and explosive ability... on a scale of 0-100 where does Jordan rank on those attributes? A 95? And where does Kobe rank? An 85? 90?

I just feel like the difference, between these two all-time-great players in particular, is so infinitesimal that it won't make much of a difference at all.

Jordan v Shaq? Sure, quickness will come in to play, among a ton of other things. But Jordan v Kobe? The difference in quickness between those two is probably explained by hundredths of a second... that's hardly enough to qualify as an advantage.

[ShawkFactory]

When people reference Jordan's advantage in quickness and explosive ability... on a scale of 0-100 where does Jordan rank on those attributes? A 95? And where does Kobe rank? An 85? 90?

I just feel like the difference, between these two all-time-great players in particular, is so infinitesimal that it won't make much of a difference at all.

Jordan v Shaq? Sure, quickness will come in to play, among a ton of other things. But Jordan v Kobe? The difference in quickness between those two is probably explained by hundredths of a second... that's hardly enough to qualify as an advantage.
That's a great point.

Jordan's strength it what would ultimately give him the edge here.

But overall it would be like a boxing match. Jordan would win 11-9, then Kobe would win 11-9, Jordan would win 12-11, Kobe would win 15-13.

If they played 13 games, in the end Jordan would win 7 of them.

[f0und]

aside from all the mj advantages others have listed, no one has mentioned jordan's motor. always going full blast on both ends. cant say the same about kobe.

[Dragonyeuw]

When people reference Jordan's advantage in quickness and explosive ability... on a scale of 0-100 where does Jordan rank on those attributes? A 95? And where does Kobe rank? An 85? 90?

I just feel like the difference, between these two all-time-great players in particular, is so infinitesimal that it won't make much of a difference at all.



Their quickness will play out in different ways. If they get strictly into iso stuff on the perimeter, it's going to be MJ's ability to deal with Kobe's dribbling skills and footwork vs MJ's crazy first step explosion out of the triple threat and finishing ability . In all honesty, this matchup can come down to who's having the better day. MJ was ultimately the better 5 on 5 player, because of how he applied his abilities, but in a one on one setting these guys really can't stop each other. It's going to come down to who's hot that given day, or game.

[kshutts1]

aside from all the mj advantages others have listed, no one has mentioned jordan's motor. always going full blast on both ends. cant say the same about kobe.
In a team game, sure. That's one major reason I consider Jordan a better all-time player than Kobe.

But in one-on-one? I don't think Kobe would struggle to stay motivated and engaged.

As quite a few people have said, it would be an absolute dog fight. I think Kobe would win more often than not (55 to 45 out of 100?), just because I think he's a better overall shooter than Jordan, and the other advantages, for either player, are pretty minimal. In one on one of players very similar in size and athleticism? Shooting reigns supreme, IMO.

[Dragonyeuw]

In a team game, sure. That's one major reason I consider Jordan a better all-time player than Kobe.

But in one-on-one? I don't think Kobe would struggle to stay motivated and engaged.

As quite a few people have said, it would be an absolute dog fight. I think Kobe would win more often than not (55 to 45 out of 100?), just because I think he's a better overall shooter than Jordan, and the other advantages, for either player, are pretty minimal. In one on one of players very similar in size and athleticism? Shooting reigns supreme, IMO.

But how much is Kobe going to be relying on long range shooting in this matchup? Because he doesn't have the edge in terms of mid-range shooting, which to me is where most of the game will likely be played.

[ClipperRevival]

When people reference Jordan's advantage in quickness and explosive ability... on a scale of 0-100 where does Jordan rank on those attributes? A 95? And where does Kobe rank? An 85? 90?

I just feel like the difference, between these two all-time-great players in particular, is so infinitesimal that it won't make much of a difference at all.

Jordan v Shaq? Sure, quickness will come in to play, among a ton of other things. But Jordan v Kobe? The difference in quickness between those two is probably explained by hundredths of a second... that's hardly enough to qualify as an advantage.

The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg. That's a 5+ point difference. And in the playoffs, MJ's averaged 33+ ppg while Kobe's at 25+ ppg. That is a 8 ppg difference. Not a small amount by any means.

MJ's superior athleticism meant he was more impactful on both ends and he was able to do more things with greater ease. And I see that playing out also one on one. Like I said, I see Kobe winning more than his share but I just see MJ winning more. When two guys are this evenly matched, the guy with the clearly superior athleticism will win out most of the time.

[West-Side]

The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg. That's a 5+ point difference. And in the playoffs, MJ's averaged 33+ ppg while Kobe's at 25+ ppg. That is a 8 ppg difference. Not a small amount by any means.

MJ's superior athleticism meant he was more impactful on both ends and he was able to do more things with greater ease. And I see that playing out also one on one. Like I said, I see Kobe winning more than his share but I just see MJ winning more. When two guys are this evenly matched, the guy with the clearly superior athleticism will win out most of the time.

:facepalm Still comparing stats from different era are we?
Why don't you compare their numbers to league average.

In Kobe's era, like 6 teams scored over 100 PPG; in Jordan's era like 2 teams failed to do so. :rolleyes:

[ClipperRevival]

:facepalm Still comparing stats from different era are we?
Why don't you compare their numbers to league average.

In Kobe's era, like 6 teams scored over 100 PPG; in Jordan's era like 2 teams failed to do so. :rolleyes:

Yeah, so Kobe shooting .480% from 2 pointers while MJ shooting .520% from 2 is also due to era huh?

Freaken Kobe fans. :facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

MJ's all time best PER of 27.91 is also due to era huh? While Kobe checks in at 18th all time at 23.21?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, so Kobe shooting .480% from 2 pointers while MJ shooting .520% from 2 is also due to era huh?

Freaken Kobe fans. :facepalm

Good point, and not only that, but Chicago ran at a pace similar to teams today.

Kobe fans wanna bring up his "extravagant" scoring records in the regular-season, but fail to recognize the rules helped bring up perimeter scoring post 2006. What happened to adjusting for era doe?

And you gotta laugh at clowns who bring up DRTG. :oldlol: Without applying context, the Yoda Jordan's Wizards were better defensively than the 90's Bulls championship teams.

[West-Side]

Yeah, so Kobe shooting .480% from 2 pointers while MJ shooting .520% from 2 is also due to era huh?

Freaken Kobe fans. :facepalm

Are you this much of a retard?
Seriously?

I think I'm going to take a long break from the NBA forum on ISH.

[kshutts1]

The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg. That's a 5+ point difference. And in the playoffs, MJ's averaged 33+ ppg while Kobe's at 25+ ppg. That is a 8 ppg difference. Not a small amount by any means.

MJ's superior athleticism meant he was more impactful on both ends and he was able to do more things with greater ease. And I see that playing out also one on one. Like I said, I see Kobe winning more than his share but I just see MJ winning more. When two guys are this evenly matched, the guy with the clearly superior athleticism will win out most of the time.
Yes. Athleticism = ppg. That's why Harold Minor has the same PPG as Jordan.

[ClipperRevival]

Are you this much of a retard?
Seriously?

I think I'm going to take a long break from the NBA forum on ISH.

Yeah, when a basic stat such as FG% doesn't make Kobe look good, let's discard it.

[ClipperRevival]

Yes. Athleticism = ppg. That's why Harold Minor has the same PPG as Jordan.

I feel like I'm heading into a layman's argument zone and don't feel the need to elaborate further if you didn't get my point originally.

[pastis]

MJ's all time best PER of 27.91 is also due to era huh? While Kobe checks in at 18th all time at 23.21?

Dirk 18 all time PER and Kobe 19.

but what surprised me...was Pau Gasol at 35 all time PER :applause: :bowdown:

[ClipperRevival]

Dirk 18 all time PER and Kobe 19.

but what surprised me...was Pau Gasol at 35 all time PER :applause: :bowdown:

Scottie Pippen - 117th in PER at 18.63.

[sdot_thadon]

Absolute war similar physical attributes and skills. Small athletic advantage towards Mike, maybe understating it but not huge enough to determine the outcome imo. I think they'd be pretty close strentgh wise too, which kobe is peak? The one that weighed around 235? He was a tank. It could go either way on either day. I think Mj is a far greater player in a 5 on 5 setting but removing all the peripheral evens the odds for Kobe. Probably would boil down to who makes the 1st bucket or who misses the 1st bucket depending on format. A small advantage to Mj would be I feel he plays a bit bigger than kobe so to speak, so perhaps he'd be a bit more physical. I'd pay to see it for sure.

[West-Side]

Yeah, when a basic stat such as FG% doesn't make Kobe look good, let's discard it.

No you're just a moron.

85' - .499 / 110.8 PPG
86' - .495 / 110.2 PPG
87' - .490 / 109.9 PPG
88' - .490 / 108.2 PPG
89' - .490 / 109.2 PPG
90' - .488 / 107.0 PPG
91' - .488 / 106.3 PPG
92' - .486 / 105.3 PPG
93' - .489 / 105.3 PPG
94' - .483 / 101.5 PPG
95' - .491 / 101.4 PPG
96' - .486 / 99.5 PPG
97' - .480 / 96.9 PPG
98' - .470 / 95.6 PPG
99' - .457 / 91.6 PPG
2000 - .468 / 97.5 PPG
01' - .461 / 94.8 PPG
02' - .465 / 95.5 PPG
03' - .463 / 95.1 PPG
04' - .460 / 93.4 PPG
05' - .470 / 97.2 PPG
06' - .478 / 97.0 PPG
07' - .485 / 98.7 PPG
08' - .484 / 99.9 PPG
09' - .485 / 100.0 PPG
10' - .492 / 100.4 PPG
11' - .487 / 99.6 PPG
12' - .477 / 96.3 PPG

League averages, just to show you what I mean (2PT% - PPG).

Jordan:

85' - .526 / 28.2
86' - .474 / 22.7
87' - .491 / 37.1
88' - .546 / 35.0
89' - .553 / 32.5
90' - .548 / 33.6
91' - .551 / 31.5
92' - .553 / 30.1
93' - .514 / 32.6
95' - .403 / 26.9
96' - .506 / 30.4
97' - .507 / 29.6
98' - .482 / 28.7

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
01' - .489 / 28.5
02' - .489 / 25.2
03' - .465 / 30.0
04' - .463 / 24.0
05' - .472 / 27.6
06' - .482 / 35.4
07' - .497 / 31.6
08' - .490 / 28.3
09' - .496 / 26.8
10' - .487 / 27.0
11' - .487 / 25.3
12' - .464 / 27.9
13' - .510 / 27.3

I'm just trying to show you that taking into account the era these guy played matters a hell of a lot. Playing in the 80's and early 90's allowed Jordan to inflate his numbers. The same reason if you compare SG's from that same time to SG's from 00' to 13'; the FG% and PPG is significantly higher for the SG's during Jordan's era.

The discrepancy between their 2PT% isn't as large as the stats will lead you to believe.

Again, do a simple trend analysis on the numbers I posted and buy a ****ing clue.

[OldSchoolBBall]

yeah, I'm sure him being 33-35 years old instead of 26-29 years old had nothing to do with those numbers, right West Side? :facepalm You don't think a 26-29 year old Jordan adds 2-4% to his 2FG% in 1996? Sure...

[Hey Yo]

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
2000 was Kobe's rookie year?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Are we assuming he'd be that hot with Jordan on him?

at 19 he was hitting jumpers and driving to the lane with MVP Jordan guarding him

check this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGLFK0I6-mk (1:02)

then there's this

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif.html)


this would have been an AND1 in todays league

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/DunkonJordanampPippen_zps71585104.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/DunkonJordanampPippen_zps71585104.gif.html)

going past Pippen and Jordan

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif

getting past MJ here

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/Kobe%20beats%20Jordan%20off%20dribble_zpspfgoyi8r. gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/Kobe%20beats%20Jordan%20off%20dribble_zpspfgoyi8r. gif.html)


and that was 19 year old Kobe going up against MVP MJ..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yeah, when a basic stat such as FG% doesn't make Kobe look good, let's discard it.

Kobe from 08-10 was more effecient in the playoffs than Jordan from 96-98

LOL at using PER, the stat that has Dwayne Wade, Chris Paul, David Robinson and Neil JOhnston over KAJ and Magic

[TheMarkMadsen]

Good point, and not only that, but Chicago ran at a pace similar to teams today.

Kobe fans wanna bring up his "extravagant" scoring records in the regular-season, but fail to recognize the rules helped bring up perimeter scoring post 2006. What happened to adjusting for era doe?

And you gotta laugh at clowns who bring up DRTG. :oldlol: Without applying context, the Yoda Jordan's Wizards were better defensively than the 90's Bulls championship teams.

good thing Kobe had 9 straight 40pt games in 2003..

[TheMarkMadsen]

No you're just a moron.

85' - .499 / 110.8 PPG
86' - .495 / 110.2 PPG
87' - .490 / 109.9 PPG
88' - .490 / 108.2 PPG
89' - .490 / 109.2 PPG
90' - .488 / 107.0 PPG
91' - .488 / 106.3 PPG
92' - .486 / 105.3 PPG
93' - .489 / 105.3 PPG
94' - .483 / 101.5 PPG
95' - .491 / 101.4 PPG
96' - .486 / 99.5 PPG
97' - .480 / 96.9 PPG
98' - .470 / 95.6 PPG
99' - .457 / 91.6 PPG
2000 - .468 / 97.5 PPG
01' - .461 / 94.8 PPG
02' - .465 / 95.5 PPG
03' - .463 / 95.1 PPG
04' - .460 / 93.4 PPG
05' - .470 / 97.2 PPG
06' - .478 / 97.0 PPG
07' - .485 / 98.7 PPG
08' - .484 / 99.9 PPG
09' - .485 / 100.0 PPG
10' - .492 / 100.4 PPG
11' - .487 / 99.6 PPG
12' - .477 / 96.3 PPG

League averages, just to show you what I mean (2PT% - PPG).

Jordan:

85' - .526 / 28.2
86' - .474 / 22.7
87' - .491 / 37.1
88' - .546 / 35.0
89' - .553 / 32.5
90' - .548 / 33.6
91' - .551 / 31.5
92' - .553 / 30.1
93' - .514 / 32.6
95' - .403 / 26.9
96' - .506 / 30.4
97' - .507 / 29.6
98' - .482 / 28.7

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
01' - .489 / 28.5
02' - .489 / 25.2
03' - .465 / 30.0
04' - .463 / 24.0
05' - .472 / 27.6
06' - .482 / 35.4
07' - .497 / 31.6
08' - .490 / 28.3
09' - .496 / 26.8
10' - .487 / 27.0
11' - .487 / 25.3
12' - .464 / 27.9
13' - .510 / 27.3

I'm just trying to show you that taking into account the era these guy played matters a hell of a lot. Playing in the 80's and early 90's allowed Jordan to inflate his numbers. The same reason if you compare SG's from that same time to SG's from 00' to 13'; the FG% and PPG is significantly higher for the SG's during Jordan's era.

The discrepancy between their 2PT% isn't as large as the stats will lead you to believe.

Again, do a simple trend analysis on the numbers I posted and buy a ****ing clue.


:applause: :applause:

[ClipperRevival]

No you're just a moron.

85' - .499 / 110.8 PPG
86' - .495 / 110.2 PPG
87' - .490 / 109.9 PPG
88' - .490 / 108.2 PPG
89' - .490 / 109.2 PPG
90' - .488 / 107.0 PPG
91' - .488 / 106.3 PPG
92' - .486 / 105.3 PPG
93' - .489 / 105.3 PPG
94' - .483 / 101.5 PPG
95' - .491 / 101.4 PPG
96' - .486 / 99.5 PPG
97' - .480 / 96.9 PPG
98' - .470 / 95.6 PPG
99' - .457 / 91.6 PPG
2000 - .468 / 97.5 PPG
01' - .461 / 94.8 PPG
02' - .465 / 95.5 PPG
03' - .463 / 95.1 PPG
04' - .460 / 93.4 PPG
05' - .470 / 97.2 PPG
06' - .478 / 97.0 PPG
07' - .485 / 98.7 PPG
08' - .484 / 99.9 PPG
09' - .485 / 100.0 PPG
10' - .492 / 100.4 PPG
11' - .487 / 99.6 PPG
12' - .477 / 96.3 PPG

League averages, just to show you what I mean (2PT% - PPG).

Jordan:

85' - .526 / 28.2
86' - .474 / 22.7
87' - .491 / 37.1
88' - .546 / 35.0
89' - .553 / 32.5
90' - .548 / 33.6
91' - .551 / 31.5
92' - .553 / 30.1
93' - .514 / 32.6
95' - .403 / 26.9
96' - .506 / 30.4
97' - .507 / 29.6
98' - .482 / 28.7

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
01' - .489 / 28.5
02' - .489 / 25.2
03' - .465 / 30.0
04' - .463 / 24.0
05' - .472 / 27.6
06' - .482 / 35.4
07' - .497 / 31.6
08' - .490 / 28.3
09' - .496 / 26.8
10' - .487 / 27.0
11' - .487 / 25.3
12' - .464 / 27.9
13' - .510 / 27.3

I'm just trying to show you that taking into account the era these guy played matters a hell of a lot. Playing in the 80's and early 90's allowed Jordan to inflate his numbers. The same reason if you compare SG's from that same time to SG's from 00' to 13'; the FG% and PPG is significantly higher for the SG's during Jordan's era.

The discrepancy between their 2PT% isn't as large as the stats will lead you to believe.

Again, do a simple trend analysis on the numbers I posted and buy a ****ing clue.

WTF is your point and why did you highlight 96-98? Maybe because that's when MJ was 33-35 and that's the only way any version of Kobe can even compare to MJ? I don't know if those are 2 pt FG% or overall FG%. If it's overall, the lesser 3s you shoot as a league, the higher the FG% should be as a league, which explains the higher FG% in MJ's era.

And also, just because the league scoring and/or FG% is low, it doesn't necessarily mean defense was great. It could just mean the league dipped a little in efficiency and the pace was slower, like the East in the early 2000's. On the flip side, just because the league scores a lot, doesn't necessarily mean the D was bad. The league as a whole could've been more efficient and/or the tempo was a bit higher.

Keep taking Ls as being a Kobe fan. Deflecting from the truth and blaming the league numbers to excuses his pedestrian FG%.

[ClipperRevival]

Kobe from 08-10 was more effecient in the playoffs than Jordan from 96-98

LOL at using PER, the stat that has Dwayne Wade, Chris Paul, David Robinson and Neil JOhnston over KAJ and Magic

Of course Kobe fans hate PER like the plaque because it makes your man look bad seeing that he's 20th all time while MJ is #1 all time in both regular season and playoffs.

Anyways, nice for you to compare 33-35 year old MJ to 30-32 year old Kobe. Lord knows prime MJ's numbers blow Kobe out the waters. But here we go.

MJ - 96-98 (playoffs) - 31.4 ppg, 27.3 PER
Kobe - 08-10 (playoffs) - 29.4 ppg, 25.5 PER

[TheMarkMadsen]

Of course Kobe fans hate PER like the plaque because it makes your man look bad seeing that he's 20th all time while MJ is #1 all time in both regular season and playoffs.

Anyways, nice for you to compare 33-35 year old MJ to 30-32 year old Kobe. Lord knows prime MJ's numbers blow Kobe out the waters. But here we go.

MJ - 96-98 (playoffs) - 31.4 ppg, 27.3 PER
Kobe - 08-10 (playoffs) - 29.4 ppg, 25.5 PER

uhm noo, more like it makes anybody using that stat to measure players an absolute idiot..

all time leaders in PER

1. Michael Jordan*
2. LeBron James
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. David Robinson*
5. Wilt Chamberlain*
6. Chris Paul
7. Bob Pettit*
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Neil Johnston*
10. Kevin Durant
11. Charles Barkley*
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
13. Tim Duncan
14. Magic Johnson*
15. Karl Malone*
16. Hakeem Olajuwon*
17. Larry Bird*
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. Kobe Bryant
20. Oscar Robertson*

excellent stat :oldlol: :oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

uhm noo, more like it makes anybody using that stat to measure players an absolute idiot..

all time leaders in PER

1. Michael Jordan*
2. LeBron James
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. David Robinson*
5. Wilt Chamberlain*
6. Chris Paul
7. Bob Pettit*
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Neil Johnston*
10. Kevin Durant
11. Charles Barkley*
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
13. Tim Duncan
14. Magic Johnson*
15. Karl Malone*
16. Hakeem Olajuwon*
17. Larry Bird*
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. Kobe Bryant
20. Oscar Robertson*

excellent stat :oldlol: :oldlol:

Do you know what "efficiency" means? Well, this stat measures it quite well. No one said it's the be all, end all but anyone with a basketball brain knows this stat is a solid indicator of efficiency. But you, being a Kobe fan, hate it. And I see why.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Playoffs

96 Jordan = 30.7 ppg on 46% FG, 56% TS

08 Kobe = 30.1 ppg on 48% FG, 57.7% TS

97 Jordan = 31.1 ppg on 45.6% FG, 52% TS

09 Kobe = 30.2 ppg on 45.6% FG, 56% TS

98 Jordan = 32.4 ppg on 46% FG, 54.5% TS

10 Kobe = 29.2 ppg on 46% FG, 56.7% TS

like i was saying.. 08-10 playoff Kobe was more efficient than 96-98 Jordan..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Do you know what "efficiency" means? Well, this stat measures it quite well. No one said it's the be all, end all but anyone with a basketball brain knows this stat is a solid indicator of efficiency. But you, being a Kobe fan, hate it. And I see why.

this guy defending a list that has Dwayne Wade, Charles Barkley, Neil Johnston, David Robinson and Chris Paul > Magic, Bird, Duncan, Jabbar, Hakeem, Kobe

:oldlol: :oldlol:

PER isn't that great of a stat

sorry bud

[ClipperRevival]

Playoffs

96 Jordan = 30.7 ppg on 46% FG, 56% TS

08 Kobe = 30.1 ppg on 48% FG, 57.7% TS

97 Jordan = 31.1 ppg on 45.6% FG, 52% TS

09 Kobe = 30.2 ppg on 45.6% FG, 56% TS

98 Jordan = 32.4 ppg on 46% FG, 54.5% TS

10 Kobe = 29.2 ppg on 46% FG, 56.7% TS

like i was saying.. 08-10 playoff Kobe was more efficient than 96-98 Jordan..

:oldlol: :oldlol: Kobe fans. So desparate.

[Legends66NBA7]

Thread is about one on one basketball and people in here bringing up team and advanced stats to prove redundant statements than neither side will ever budge from.


Anyways, Jordan would win. Better attacker at the basket, so he would probably beat Kobe there most of the time. It would be pretty competitive and fun to watch for sure.

[ClipperRevival]

this guy defending a list that has Dwayne Wade, Charles Barkley, Neil Johnston, David Robinson and Chris Paul > Magic, Bird, Duncan, Jabbar, Hakeem, Kobe

:oldlol: :oldlol:

PER isn't that great of a stat

sorry bud

So the answer is no, you don't understand what "efficiency" is.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:oldlol: :oldlol: Kobe fans. So desparate.

last page you said Kobe fans hate FG%, yet here I am using FG% and TS and you have nothing intelligent to respond with..

Kobe from 08-10 was more efficient in the playoffs than Jordan in 08-10 based of FG% and TS%..

[TheMarkMadsen]

So the answer is no, you don't understand what "efficiency" is.

so Neil Johnston was more effecient than Magic, Bird, Jabbar, Hakeem, etc

Neil Johnston :bowdown:

PER :bowdown:

go ahead and google who the fucc that is

[ClipperRevival]

last page you said Kobe fans hate FG%, yet here I am using FG% and TS and you have nothing intelligent to respond with..

Kobe from 08-10 was more efficient in the playoffs than Jordan in 08-10 based of FG% and TS%..

Yeah, sorry for using CAREER numbers instead of cherry picked numbers from Kobe at 30-32 and MJ at 33-35.

And Kobe has MJ by like .01% in both FG% and TS% during this specific time anyways. Does that make your day Kobe fan?

[ClipperRevival]

so Neil Johnston was more effecient than Magic, Bird, Jabbar, Hakeem, etc

Neil Johnston :bowdown:

PER :bowdown:

go ahead and google who the fucc that is

:facepalm Still don't get it.

[TheMarkMadsen]

And Kobe has MJ by like .01% in both FG% and TS% during this specific time anyways. Does that make your day Kobe fan?

do you even math..

2% difference in FG% and TS%


96 Jordan = 30.7 ppg on 46% FG, 56% TS

08 Kobe = 30.1 ppg on 48% FG, 57.7% TS



4% difference in TS


97 Jordan = 31.1 ppg on 45.6% FG, 52% TS

09 Kobe = 30.2 ppg on 45.6% FG, 56% TS


2% difference in TS%


98 Jordan = 32.4 ppg on 46% FG, 54.5% TS

10 Kobe = 29.2 ppg on 46% FG, 56.7% TS



.01%..?? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

:facepalm Still don't get it.

go ahead and explain then genius how Neil Johnston ended up almost 10 spots higher than Larry Bird

[kshutts1]

I feel like I'm heading into a layman's argument zone and don't feel the need to elaborate further if you didn't get my point originally.
All due respect, but I'm likely more intelligent than you, so I don't understand the point of your degrading post.

The quoted post clearly indicates that you associated athleticism with scoring and overall ability. Which is, in a nutshell, correct. But when discussing these two players, it has no bearing on the conversation.

So yes, please elaborate further. If you can.

[Vertical-24]

As MJ said, Kobe will have the best chance beating him because he stole his moves. Both are the most skilled one on one players that I've seen. At the end of the day Jordan's superior athleticism, combined with skills will be too much for Kobe to handle.

MJ no doubt will win but Kobe will put up a good fight.

Pretty much this. MJ would win most but Kobe would give him hell.

Kobe has a better chance of beating MJ than any other perimeter player in the game. Both have extremely comparable skillsets, practically tailor made to destroy single defenders (1v1) and have effectively proven to be the best 1on1 players to play the game. Kobe's range is his advantage, but MJ's superior physical attributes (lateral quickness, handsize [esp. if handcheck allowed], and ability to get to the rim) make him a clear favorite.

The trash that would be talked every game would make classic soundbytes though. Boy how I wish we could see the two greatest SGs of all time go at each other. Would be awesome.

[plowking]

aside from all the mj advantages others have listed, no one has mentioned jordan's motor. always going full blast on both ends. cant say the same about kobe.

Absolute BS.

Jordan took breaks on defense like everyone else.

[G0ATbe]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gif

[West-Side]

WTF is your point and why did you highlight 96-98? Maybe because that's when MJ was 33-35 and that's the only way any version of Kobe can even compare to MJ? I don't know if those are 2 pt FG% or overall FG%. If it's overall, the lesser 3s you shoot as a league, the higher the FG% should be as a league, which explains the higher FG% in MJ's era.

And also, just because the league scoring and/or FG% is low, it doesn't necessarily mean defense was great. It could just mean the league dipped a little in efficiency and the pace was slower, like the East in the early 2000's. On the flip side, just because the league scores a lot, doesn't necessarily mean the D was bad. The league as a whole could've been more efficient and/or the tempo was a bit higher.

Keep taking Ls as being a Kobe fan. Deflecting from the truth and blaming the league numbers to excuses his pedestrian FG%.

Hey moron, since your brain can't even process simple trend analysis. I'll explain.

Jordan did not play in 94' & 95'; I highlighted the three years where the league averages declines in both 2PT% and PPG. You can clearly see Jordan's decline those years as well; both in PPG & 2PT%.

Second off, all you did in your post was sound like a complete moron without a clue of what you speak off. If I was to rank the 30 best SG's in Jordan & Kobe's era; you'd see a SIGNIFICANT difference in 2PT% & PPG. A lot of perimeter guard during Jordan's era shot nearly 50%. I remember doing that analysis a while back and the difference was a staggering 3.8% in FG with PPG being higher for guards during Jordan's era by almost 5 PPG.

Again, I took the top 25 or 30 best guards (can't remember the exact number) and the difference was clear as day.

You Kobe haters can chirp all you want but it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that it wasn't far easier to score during Jordan's era.

I mean 110 PPG to 95 PPG; the 2PT% was around .487 average from 85' to 97' and dropped to .468 from 00' - 13'. :rolleyes:

When you adjust their respective numbers to league average; Kobe is actually a lot closer to Jordan that the raw numbers suggest. But idiots like you aren't intelligent enough to decipher such raw data. Keep calling me a Kobe stan and ignoring the facts dipshit.

[Dragonyeuw]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gif

Wait, a 24 year old Kobe had the quickness to react to a much slower 40 year old MJ and block his shot? Breaking news at 10.....

[West-Side]

Wait, a 24 year old Kobe had the quickness to react to a much slower 40 year old MJ and block his shot? Breaking news at 10.....

No but I can post some videos of rookie Kobe taking MVP Jordan to school during the same time frame he won his 2nd 3-peat.

[ClipperRevival]

Hey moron, since your brain can't even process simple trend analysis. I'll explain.

Jordan did not play in 94' & 95'; I highlighted the three years where the league averages declines in both 2PT% and PPG. You can clearly see Jordan's decline those years as well; both in PPG & 2PT%.

Second off, all you did in your post was sound like a complete moron without a clue of what you speak off. If I was to rank the 30 best SG's in Jordan & Kobe's era; you'd see a SIGNIFICANT difference in 2PT% & PPG. A lot of perimeter guard during Jordan's era shot nearly 50%. I remember doing that analysis a while back and the difference was a staggering 3.8% in FG with PPG being higher for guards during Jordan's era by almost 5 PPG.

Again, I took the top 25 or 30 best guards (can't remember the exact number) and the difference was clear as day.

You Kobe haters can chirp all you want but it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that it wasn't far easier to score during Jordan's era.

I mean 110 PPG to 95 PPG; the 2PT% was around .487 average from 85' to 97' and dropped to .468 from 00' - 13'. :rolleyes:

When you adjust their respective numbers to league average; Kobe is actually a lot closer to Jordan that the raw numbers suggest. But idiots like you aren't intelligent enough to decipher such raw data. Keep calling me a Kobe stan and ignoring the facts dipshit.

Hey moron. :facepalm

The reason why MJ's shooting pct dipped from 1996 - 1998 was because he had taken 2 years off and came back at 33-35.

And the reason why FG pct was higher for guards in MJ's days was because the league shot significantly less 3 pointers.

Love how you dumb fu*ks who probably don't even play the game try to sound intelligent with these misleading stats.

Carry on dumb Kobe fan.

[ClipperRevival]

go ahead and explain then genius how Neil Johnston ended up almost 10 spots higher than Larry Bird

Because for his era, he was one of the best. He's a HOFer who was efficient in his era. That's why he's there. I clearly said this is an important stat but that it's not the be all, end all. If you can accept this stat for WHAT IT IS and know WHAT IT MEASURES, it is a good tool.

[Dragonyeuw]

No but I can post some videos of rookie Kobe taking MVP Jordan to school during the same time frame he won his 2nd 3-peat.

You mean the baseline dunk, and the turnaround jumper? Make sure you also post the 4-5 times MJ made him look silly in the ASG game. And yes, Kobe was trying to defend him. And physically, 19 year old Kobe was better able to keep up with 35 year old MJ than 40 year old MJ trying to keep up with 24 year old Kobe in that gif you posted, since you'll counter with something about primes or whatever.

[ClipperRevival]

All due respect, but I'm likely more intelligent than you, so I don't understand the point of your degrading post.

The quoted post clearly indicates that you associated athleticism with scoring and overall ability. Which is, in a nutshell, correct. But when discussing these two players, it has no bearing on the conversation.

So yes, please elaborate further. If you can.

This is what you replied to below. I never associated athleticism with scoring ability and overall ability in a vacuum. But hen you have two guys that are almost identical in skills like Kobe/MJ, then the guy with the superior athleticism should be more impactful. And that is where MJ can score more points. Again, if you don't see why this is the case, there is no point discussing further.

"The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg. That's a 5+ point difference. And in the playoffs, MJ's averaged 33+ ppg while Kobe's at 25+ ppg. That is a 8 ppg difference. Not a small amount by any means.

MJ's superior athleticism meant he was more impactful on both ends and he was able to do more things with greater ease. And I see that playing out also one on one. Like I said, I see Kobe winning more than his share but I just see MJ winning more. When two guys are this evenly matched, the guy with the clearly superior athleticism will win out most of the time."

[West-Side]

Hey moron. :facepalm

The reason why MJ's shooting pct dipped from 1996 - 1998 was because he had taken 2 years off and came back at 33-35.

And the reason why FG pct was higher for guards in MJ's days was because the league shot significantly less 3 pointers.

Love how you dumb fu*ks who probably don't even play the game try to sound intelligent with these misleading stats.

Carry on dumb Kobe fan.

Moron, I never posted the FG% I posted the 2PT% and its decline over the years. :hammerhead: :oldlol:

Ah so you think it's a coincidence that the PPG & 2PT% went down right as Kobe started to emerge as a star in this league? This has nothing to even do with Jordan being 33-35 years of age moron.

I'm showing you that his 2PT% declined as the league average started to decline. I mean losers like you will obviously call it a coincidence since all you can do is use cop outs to escape a factual observation.

[West-Side]

By the way, not just Jordan's 2PT% decline as league averages started to decline. That same pattern can be seen for most good/elite guards in the league during that time frame.

[ClipperRevival]

Moron, I never posted the FG% I posted the 2PT% and its decline over the years. :hammerhead: :oldlol:

Ah so you think it's a coincidence that the PPG & 2PT% went down right as Kobe started to emerge as a star in this league? This has nothing to even do with Jordan being 33-35 years of age moron.

I'm showing you that his 2PT% declined as the league average started to decline. I mean losers like you will obviously call it a coincidence since all you can do is use cop outs to escape a factual observation.

I could care less. You're nothing but a Kobe ******ger. Stop trying to excuse his terrible FG% with these lame FG% numbers for the league.

[West-Side]

I could care less. You're nothing but a Kobe ******ger. Stop trying to excuse his terrible FG% with these lame FG% numbers for the league.

:roll: Checkmate bitch.
You mad bruh, no seriously, how mad are you?

[kshutts1]

By the way, not just Jordan's 2PT% decline as league averages started to decline. That same pattern can be seen for most good/elite guards in the league during that time frame.
Do you know how to find the following information...

1) League average shooting %, broken down in to 2p and 3p, from 85 until current? Not an overall average, but year by year average.

2) Kobe's respective averages for every year of his career. Not an average, but each season.

3) Jordan's respective averages?

Because, honestly, the best way to compare individuals that played in different (albeit very similar) eras is to gauge them relative to their peers. See how others fared under the same circumstances, and how said player stacks up with those peers.

[ClipperRevival]

:roll: Checkmate bitch.
You mad bruh, no seriously, how mad are you?

:oldlol: Mad? Why would I be mad? I laugh at you Kobe fans SO desparate to degrade MJ and Bron. It's just comical. I know it's hard because the truth is NOT on your side.

[West-Side]

Do you know how to find the following information...

1) League average shooting %, broken down in to 2p and 3p, from 85 until current? Not an overall average, but year by year average.

2) Kobe's respective averages for every year of his career. Not an average, but each season.

3) Jordan's respective averages?

Because, honestly, the best way to compare individuals that played in different (albeit very similar) eras is to gauge them relative to their peers. See how others fared under the same circumstances, and how said player stacks up with those peers.

Okay, listen carefully.
Those numbers that I already posted ARE Kobe's & Jordan's 2PT% & PPG by year and the league averages for 2PT% and PPG by year.

I didn't use FG% so the 3PT% debate is meaningless in this case.

I wanted to show you guys how the league has changed over the years; how much more points teams scored from 1985-1997 in comparison to 2000-2012 and how the 2PT% steadily declined.

Furthermore (and more importantly) how Jordan's 2PT% started to slowly decline as league averages started to drop.

Most important, I wanted to show you guys that despite Jordan's 52% career from 2PT looks better than Kobe's 48%; when comparing those raw numbers to league averages, it's a lot closer than you'd think.

Jordan's numbers still looks slightly better (obviously, since he's the G.O.A.T.) but I just wanted to shed light at the fact that the discrepency between 52% and 48% is misleading. It's more like 49%/50% to 48% (adjusted). I'd have to run a regression analysis in order to determine the real adjusted average.

[Levity]

Love how you dumb fu*ks who probably don't even play the game try to sound intelligent with these misleading stats.



You've slowly, but surely come out as some pretentious asshole on this site. which is sad, because half the shit you spout on here is drivel and regurgitated fluff that's more than obvious to anyone with an elementary knowledge of the game. then you top it off by constantly talking about the importance lower body fluidity and heavy feet and parade around like discovered the lost ark. pretty laughable.

[kshutts1]

"The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg. That's a 5+ point difference. And in the playoffs, MJ's averaged 33+ ppg while Kobe's at 25+ ppg. That is a 8 ppg difference. Not a small amount by any means.

MJ's superior athleticism meant he was more impactful on both ends and he was able to do more things with greater ease. And I see that playing out also one on one. Like I said, I see Kobe winning more than his share but I just see MJ winning more. When two guys are this evenly matched, the guy with the clearly superior athleticism will win out most of the time."
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I agree with the overall point that athleticism can be a large deciding factor, particularly when discussing two players whose skills and abilities are so similar.

However, you clearly did correlate scoring to athleticism, with the very first statement...

"The difference in athleticism is what separated MJ from Kobe. MJ averaged 31.5 ppg as a Bull while Kobe averaged 25+ ppg."

Your reply reads as though you believe that Jordan's superior athleticism is why he scored so much more than Kobe when, in reality, it might (key word) be a part of it, but certainly does not come anywhere near telling the full story.

As for your last point, I again agree that the player with the superior athleticism will come out on top more often than not when those players are so close in other areas... but as I stated in my first post in this thread, Kobe and Jordan are so close athletically that it's really a non-issue.

[kshutts1]

Okay, listen carefully.
Those numbers that I already posted ARE Kobe's & Jordan's 2PT% & PPG by year and the league averages for 2PT% and PPG by year.

I didn't use FG% so the 3PT% debate is meaningless in this case.

I wanted to show you guys how the league has changed over the years; how much more points teams scored from 1985-1997 in comparison to 2000-2012 and how the 2PT% steadily declined.

Furthermore (and more importantly) how Jordan's 2PT% started to slowly decline as league averages started to drop.

Most important, I wanted to show you guys that despite Jordan's 52% career from 2PT looks better than Kobe's 48%; when comparing those raw numbers to league averages, it's a lot closer than you'd think.

Jordan's numbers still looks slightly better (obviously, since he's the G.O.A.T.) but I just wanted to shed light at the fact that the discrepency between 52% and 48% is misleading. It's more like 49%/50% to 48% (adjusted). I'd have to run a regression analysis in order to determine the real adjusted average.
:facepalm to you because I'm on your side.

:facepalm to me for not fully reading the numbers you posted.

I'll go back and look at them more in depth.

[Mr Feeny]

:oldlol: Mad? Why would I be mad? I laugh at you Kobe fans SO desparate to degrade MJ and Bron. It's just comical. I know it's hard because the truth is NOT on your side.He snapped at a poster earlier today for daring to claim that Lebron would have taken prime Kobe to school. The guy is a nutjob kid who started watching basketball in 2007. Why even bother wasting your time?

Talk to people who watched the eras you're talking about, not kids who Google boxscores and fail at pretending to know what they're talking about.

[ClipperRevival]

You've slowly, but surely come out as some pretentious asshole on this site. which is sad, because half the shit you spout on here is drivel and regurgitated fluff that's more than obvious to anyone with an elementary knowledge of the game. then you top it off by constantly talking about the importance lower body fluidity and heavy feet and parade around like discovered the lost ark. pretty laughable.

I don't resort to name calling and have constructive arguments with the vast majority of posters. But this Westside guy completely disrespected me for no reason and I had to defend myself.

And I could care less what you think of me or how much you think I know about the game or how good I am in real life as a basketball player. I don't need to prove anything.

[West-Side]

He snapped at a poster earlier today for daring to claim that Lebron would have taken prime Kobe to school. The guy is a nutjob kid who started watching basketball in 2007. Why even bother wasting your time?

Talk to people who watched the eras you're talking about, not kids who Google boxscores and fail at pretending to know what they're talking about.

:facepalm No one has even attempted to dispute what I've already posted.
In the LeBron/Kobe thread, I've completely destroyed every point you idiots made. You claimed that in 2009, there was complete parity between the east and the west and I demonstrated why that wasn't the case.

You idiots tried to show me each conference's record versus one another and I exploited why that's a poor way to evaluate the strength of playoff teams. Once I made the necessary adjustments; by including only the playoff teams that LeBron & Kobe would have to face respectively, the evidence was clear as day. The west playoff teams were clearly superior than the east coast teams. Especially when you consider a team like Boston having injury woes before the playoffs started. :rolleyes:

[Mr Feeny]

You've slowly, but surely come out as some pretentious asshole on this site. which is sad, because half the shit you spout on here is drivel and regurgitated fluff that's more than obvious to anyone with an elementary knowledge of the game. then you top it off by constantly talking about the importance lower body fluidity and heavy feet and parade around like discovered the lost ark. pretty laughable.

And why are you attacking him with ad hominems? You're coming across even worse tbf. Grab yourself a mirror and then read your post. Stop projecting and start making coherent, relevant basketball related arguments.

[West-Side]

:facepalm to you because I'm on your side.

:facepalm to me for not fully reading the numbers you posted.

I'll go back and look at them more in depth.

:cheers: My bad, didn't mean to sound like an asshole to you.
You're a solid poster from what I see.

[Mr Feeny]

:facepalm No one has even attempted to dispute what I've already posted.
In the LeBron/Kobe thread, I've completely destroyed every point you idiots made. You claimed that in 2009, there was complete parity between the east and the west and I demonstrated why that wasn't the case.

You idiots tried to show me each conference's record versus one another and I exploited why that's a poor way to evaluate the strength of playoff teams. Once I made the necessary adjustments; by including only the playoff teams that LeBron & Kobe would have to face respectively, the evidence was clear as day. The west playoff teams were clearly superior than the east coast teams. Especially when you consider a team like Boston having injury woes before the playoffs started. :rolleyes:


Think you've either got me confused wth someone else or are making stuff up? I barely posted in that thread and certainly didn't say what you've just came up with, whimsically and predictably as ever.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm No one has even attempted to dispute what I've already posted.
In the LeBron/Kobe thread, I've completely destroyed every point you idiots made. You claimed that in 2009, there was complete parity between the east and the west and I demonstrated why that wasn't the case.

You idiots tried to show me each conference's record versus one another and I exploited why that's a poor way to evaluate the strength of playoff teams. Once I made the necessary adjustments; by including only the playoff teams that LeBron & Kobe would have to face respectively, the evidence was clear as day. The west playoff teams were clearly superior than the east coast teams. Especially when you consider a team like Boston having injury woes before the playoffs started. :rolleyes:

Why are you spamming semicolons, and using them in places where they don't belong? :oldlol:

[kshutts1]

Just crunched west-side's numbers.

Over the 13 year sample size given, Jordan shot, on average, 2.3% higher than league average.

Over the 14 year sample size, Kobe shot, on average, 1.1% higher than league average.

Basically... they shot a near identical %, as relative-to-peers is more telling and more appropriate than just the raw data.

Kudos to west-side for bringing that info into the thread (a long time ago).

[Mr Feeny]

:facepalm No one has even attempted to dispute what I've already posted.
In the LeBron/Kobe thread, I've completely destroyed every point you idiots made. You claimed that in 2009, there was complete parity between the east and the west and I demonstrated why that wasn't the case.

You idiots tried to show me each conference's record versus one another and I exploited why that's a poor way to evaluate the strength of playoff teams. Once I made the necessary adjustments; by including only the playoff teams that LeBron & Kobe would have to face respectively, the evidence was clear as day. The west playoff teams were clearly superior than the east coast teams. Especially when you consider a team like Boston having injury woes before the playoffs started. :rolleyes:

Just a heads up, like Kuniva_dAMiGhTy said, use a semi colon to precede an independent clause. Otherwise, you could try a comma. People misuse it all the time. There's no need to go to a semi colon unless it's necessary.

[Levity]

And why are you attacking him with ad hominems? You're coming across even worse tbf. Grab yourself a mirror and then read your post. Stop projecting and start making coherent, relevant basketball related arguments.

if this was a basketball related discussion, then gladly. but this whole thread is a pissing contest.

[West-Side]

And why are you attacking him with ad hominems? You're coming across even worse tbf. Grab yourself a mirror and then read your post. Stop projecting and start making coherent, relevant basketball related arguments.

When did I snap at another poster and said Kobe would take LeBron to school?
Please quote me.

Today, I was in the "Kobe Vs. LeBron" thread and had a discussion about the parity of the two conferences that Kobe & LeBron played in during the 2009 season. Someone posted a graph claiming there was complete parity, but he used the entire league.

What's the point of using the entire league when only 8 teams from each conference make the playoffs?

[Mr Feeny]

if this was a basketball related discussion, then gladly. but this whole thread is a pissing contest.

Not arguing with you there. The whole forum is a joke.

[ClipperRevival]

Just crunched west-side's numbers.

Over the 13 year sample size given, Jordan shot, on average, 2.3% higher than league average.

Over the 14 year sample size, Kobe shot, on average, 1.1% higher than league average.

Basically... they shot a near identical %, as relative-to-peers is more telling and more appropriate than just the raw data.

Kudos to west-side for bringing that info into the thread (a long time ago).

Your numbers might be a bit skewed because you probably gave MJ's 1995 season, (where he shot .403 from 2 point FG% in only 17 games), the same weight as every other season right?

And you didn't includes Kobe's 2014 and 2015 season, which would've lowered his numbers.

Bottom line is, no matter how you look at it, MJ was a more efficient scorer and probably close to the 4% difference I mentioned.

[ClipperRevival]

No you're just a moron.

85' - .499 / 110.8 PPG
86' - .495 / 110.2 PPG
87' - .490 / 109.9 PPG
88' - .490 / 108.2 PPG
89' - .490 / 109.2 PPG
90' - .488 / 107.0 PPG
91' - .488 / 106.3 PPG
92' - .486 / 105.3 PPG
93' - .489 / 105.3 PPG
94' - .483 / 101.5 PPG
95' - .491 / 101.4 PPG
96' - .486 / 99.5 PPG
97' - .480 / 96.9 PPG
98' - .470 / 95.6 PPG
99' - .457 / 91.6 PPG
2000 - .468 / 97.5 PPG
01' - .461 / 94.8 PPG
02' - .465 / 95.5 PPG
03' - .463 / 95.1 PPG
04' - .460 / 93.4 PPG
05' - .470 / 97.2 PPG
06' - .478 / 97.0 PPG
07' - .485 / 98.7 PPG
08' - .484 / 99.9 PPG
09' - .485 / 100.0 PPG
10' - .492 / 100.4 PPG
11' - .487 / 99.6 PPG
12' - .477 / 96.3 PPG

League averages, just to show you what I mean (2PT% - PPG).

Jordan:

85' - .526 / 28.2
86' - .474 / 22.7
87' - .491 / 37.1
88' - .546 / 35.0
89' - .553 / 32.5
90' - .548 / 33.6
91' - .551 / 31.5
92' - .553 / 30.1
93' - .514 / 32.6
95' - .403 / 26.9
96' - .506 / 30.4
97' - .507 / 29.6
98' - .482 / 28.7

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
01' - .489 / 28.5
02' - .489 / 25.2
03' - .465 / 30.0
04' - .463 / 24.0
05' - .472 / 27.6
06' - .482 / 35.4
07' - .497 / 31.6
08' - .490 / 28.3
09' - .496 / 26.8
10' - .487 / 27.0
11' - .487 / 25.3
12' - .464 / 27.9
13' - .510 / 27.3

I'm just trying to show you that taking into account the era these guy played matters a hell of a lot. Playing in the 80's and early 90's allowed Jordan to inflate his numbers. The same reason if you compare SG's from that same time to SG's from 00' to 13'; the FG% and PPG is significantly higher for the SG's during Jordan's era.

The discrepancy between their 2PT% isn't as large as the stats will lead you to believe.

Again, do a simple trend analysis on the numbers I posted and buy a ****ing clue.

The only thing your stats prove is that at his peak, MJ was blowing away the league average by .40 - .50%, something Kobe could never do. Your stats backfired Kobe fan. Know why? Because MJ was the GOAT. Anytime you try to compare ANYONE to the GOAT, you end up on the L side. :applause:

[West-Side]

I won't include Jordan's 1995 season.
His 2PT% is on average 3.3% higher while Kobe's was 1.1% higher.
That's a difference of 2.2% not the 4.0% when you simply look at their raw numbers.

Now here's where I ran a regression analysis and that gap got a lot closer.
Why?


Because 2PT% includes all players and all positions in the league.
In fact, if I was to include only PG, SG & SF averages, Kobe's 2PT% is 2.8% higher than league average while Jordan's only increases slightly more at 3.9%.

So basically if you actually do the work and adjust their shooting percentages relative to the era they played in and relative to their peers; Jordan was only better than Kobe by 1.1%, not the 4% that you guys see as their raw numbers.

[Mr Feeny]

Kevin Durant would probably be the GOAT 1-on-1 player. Not even being biased or anything. It is what it is.

I agree with you. Durant could very well demolish every human in front of him in a 1 on 1 game. If you give him open jumpers he's making them in his sleep and if you get tight you are just inviting him to go past you.

[Mr Feeny]

I won't include Jordan's 1995 season.
His 2PT% is on average 3.3% higher while Kobe's was 1.1% higher.
That's a difference of 2.2% not the 4.0% when you simply look at their raw numbers.

Now here's where I ran a regression analysis and that gap got a lot closer.
Why?


Because 2PT% includes all players and all positions in the league.
In fact, if I was to include only PG, SG & SF averages, Kobe's 2PT% is 2.8% higher than league average while Jordan's only increases slightly more at 3.9%.

So basically if you actually do the work and adjust their shooting percentages relative to the era they played in and relative to their peers; Jordan was only better than Kobe by 1.1%, not the 4% that you guys see as their raw numbers.

Thanks for proving that Lebron is THAT much better than Kobe because however well the relatively myopic and awful shooting Kobe is doing relative to the league average, Lebron is significantly higher:lebronamazed:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree with you. Durant could very well demolish every human in front of him in a 1 on 1 game. If you give him open jumpers he's making them in his sleep and if you get tight you are just inviting him to go past you.

Depending on the rules, I would take Jordan in 1v1. Could you imagine the suffocating defense Mike would put on "Mr Unreliable"? He'd make Tony Allen look like a 3rd gen VHS tape. :oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

I won't include Jordan's 1995 season.
His 2PT% is on average 3.3% higher while Kobe's was 1.1% higher.
That's a difference of 2.2% not the 4.0% when you simply look at their raw numbers.

Now here's where I ran a regression analysis and that gap got a lot closer.
Why?


Because 2PT% includes all players and all positions in the league.
In fact, if I was to include only PG, SG & SF averages, Kobe's 2PT% is 2.8% higher than league average while Jordan's only increases slightly more at 3.9%.

So basically if you actually do the work and adjust their shooting percentages relative to the era they played in and relative to their peers; Jordan was only better than Kobe by 1.1%, not the 4% that you guys see as their raw numbers.

:roll: So, so desparate.

But I'm a little confused. MJ shot .510% from 2 PTs his entire career and the league averaged somewhere between .460 to .499 during his career. So he is probably close to .15-20% above the league average.

I see what you did. You are using the %, which further minimizes the disparity in actual FG% between the two. Smart one Kobe fan. Way to manipulate those numbers.

Like I said, so desparate.

[Mr Feeny]

Depending on the rules, I would take Jordan in 1v1. Could you imagine the suffocating defense Mike would put on "Mr Unreliable"? He'd make Tony Allen look like a 3rd gen VHS tape. :oldlol:

Fair enough. If handshaking is allowed it's a different game altogether and Durant may not be prepared to face that type of defense.

[Mr Feeny]

:roll: So, so desparate.

But I'm a little confused. MJ shot .510% from 2 PTs his entire career and the league averaged somewhere between .460 to .499 during his career. So he is probably close to .15-20% above the league average.

I see what you did. You are using the %, which further minimizes the disparity in actual FG% between the two. Smart one Kobe fan. Way to manipulate those numbers.

Like I said, so desparate.

And pathetic. Even the I'd check the kids numbers. He's known to make up random crap.
A second ago he claimed that Kobe won more games with Smush Parker than Pau ever did in the playoffs without Kobe not realising that Gasol won more in the 2015 playoffs alone than Kobe did in the entire 3 year stretch without Gasol from 2005-2007.

[kshutts1]

:roll: So, so desparate.

But I'm a little confused. MJ shot .510% from 2 PTs his entire career and the league averaged somewhere between .460 to .499 during his career. So he is probably close to .15-20% above the league average.

I see what you did. You are using the %, which further minimizes the disparity in actual FG% between the two. Smart one Kobe fan. Way to manipulate those numbers.

Like I said, so desparate.
....That's actually our point. That just looking at the FG% for both Kobe and Jordan, without any context, is misleading and relatively inaccurate.

FG% relative to league average is much more appropriate.

[West-Side]

:roll: So, so desparate.

But I'm a little confused. MJ shot .510% from 2 PTs his entire career and the league averaged somewhere between .460 to .499 during his career. So he is probably close to .15-20% above the league average.

I see what you did. You are using the %, which further minimizes the disparity in actual FG% between the two. Smart one Kobe fan. Way to manipulate those numbers.

Like I said, so desparate.

What I am adjusting their raw numbers using league averages for perimeter players. Mind you it's not entirely accurate because there's guys like Dirk Nowitzki who is a perimeter player but plays the 4, but it would be too lengthy for me to determine their adjusted numbers by including only perimeter players.

I've essentially adjusted their 2PT% for league averages by only including PG, SG & SF's.

Any half intelligent person would understand why I did that considering the discrepancy between 2PT% when Jordan & Kobe played.

But morons like you won't clue in, so I don't blame you.

[West-Side]

And pathetic. Even the I'd check the kids numbers. He's known to make up random crap.
A second ago he claimed that Kobe won more games with Smush Parker than Pau ever did in the playoffs without Kobe not realising that Gasol won more in the 2015 playoffs alone than Kobe did in the entire 3 year stretch without Gasol from 2005-2007.

I also added "unless he won more with the Bulls??" you shit for brains. :roll:
Fact is, up until 2014, Pau was 0-20 without Kobe in the playoffs. Kobe won 4 playoff games with a starting lineup of Smush, Odom, Brown & Mihm.

Plus a garbage bench.

[Mr Feeny]

I also added "unless he won more with the Bulls??" you shit for brains. :roll:
Fact is, up until 2014, Pau was 0-20 without Kobe in the playoffs. Kobe won 4 playoff games with a starting lineup of Smush, Odom, Brown & Mihm.

Plus a garbage bench.

And Gasol won more in 2015 alone than Kobe did in 3 entire seasons:rockon:

Here it is for you, kid:

Kobe lead the Lakers to 34 wins, then choked away a 3-1 1st round lead and had a single pathetic point in the second half of game 7 as the Lakers became only the 8th team in the history of the NBA to capitulate from that position in any series, and then took a step backwards and lost in 5 games the following year.

Gasol came, helped dominate the front court and not even a career 40%fg NBA finals scorer could mess up with an overwhelmingly dominant front court cleaning up his bricks.

[ClipperRevival]

....That's actually our point. That just looking at the FG% for both Kobe and Jordan, without any context, is misleading and relatively inaccurate.

FG% relative to league average is much more appropriate.

No, you don't get it. What he's doing is taking the difference in FG% and giving you the percentage difference from that number. For instance, say MJ shot .20% higher than the league average. If you divide that into percentage, that could be a minuscule number, like 1.0%.

[ClipperRevival]

What I am adjusting their raw numbers using league averages for perimeter players. Mind you it's not entirely accurate because there's guys like Dirk Nowitzki who is a perimeter player but plays the 4, but it would be too lengthy for me to determine their adjusted numbers by including only perimeter players.

I've essentially adjusted their 2PT% for league averages by only including PG, SG & SF's.

Any half intelligent person would understand why I did that considering the discrepancy between 2PT% when Jordan & Kobe played.

But morons like you won't clue in, so I don't blame you.

:oldlol: I'm done with this Kobe fan. You'll probably twist as many numbers as possible to make Kobe within the same ballpark as MJ. Have fun wasting your time.

[Mr Feeny]

:oldlol: I'm done with this Kobe fan. You'll probably twist as many numbers as possible to make Kobe within the same ballpark as MJ. Have fun wasting your time.

I warned you not to bother with a kid who never watched the games he's talking about. You've only got yourself to blame.

[Bandito]

And pathetic. Even the I'd check the kids numbers. He's known to make up random crap.
A second ago he claimed that Kobe won more games with Smush Parker than Pau ever did in the playoffs without Kobe not realising that Gasol won more in the 2015 playoffs alone than Kobe did in the entire 3 year stretch without Gasol from 2005-2007.
Are you comparing last years Bulls to 05-07 Lakers??? What a retarded moron:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Are you comparing last years Bulls to 05-07 Lakers??? What a retarded moron:applause:

Comprehension skills? Carry on nagging mate. Reading isn't your strong suit.

[catch24]

And Gasol won more in 2015 alone than Kobe did in 3 entire seasons:rockon:

Here it is for you, kid:

Kobe lead the Lakers to 34 wins, then choked away a 3-1 1st round lead and had a single pathetic point in the second half of game 7 as the Lakers became only the 8th team in the history of the NBA to capitulate from that position in any series, and then took a step backwards and lost in 5 games the following year.

Gasol came, helped dominate the front court and not even a career 40%fg NBA finals scorer could mess up with an overwhelmingly dominant front court cleaning up his bricks.

PG is my boy, but Jimmy Butler and Rose were better players than him, especially in the postseason.

You just cannot compare last years Bulls to this years Lakers. That Lakers team was flat-out garbage.

[West-Side]

No, you don't get it. What he's doing is taking the difference in FG% and giving you the percentage difference from that number. For instance, say MJ shot .20% higher than the league average. If you divide that into percentage, that could be a minuscule number, like 1.0%.

Are you a moron?
If MJ shot 55% and the league average was 52%; that 3% is added to the rest of the years. The total is than divided by the number of years to get the AVERAGE. For instance, in a 12 year span Jordan on AVERAGE shot 2.3% higher than the league average.

If Kobe's average was 1.2%.

Than the conclusion is this.

When Jordan played, his career 2PT% was 52%. When Kobe played his career 2PT% was 48%. Jordan on average shot 2.3% higher while Kobe shot 1.2% higher.

In essence we're adjusting their numbers to see how they did relative to the era they played in.

So in Jordan's case, if he shot 52% and on average he shot 2.3%; that means the league average was 49.7%. In Kobe's case, if he shot 1.2% higher than league average, the league average was 46.8%.

To put things in perspective; if Kobe played in Jordan's era, we'd expect him to shoot (49.7% + 1.2% = 50.9%) compared to Jordan's 52%.

If Michael played in Kobe's era; we'd expect him to shoot (46.8% + 2.3% = 49.1%) compare to Kobe's 48%.

You laugh at the fact that I took the time to adjust those numbers according to perimeter positions, why exactly?

Both Jordan and Kobe were shooting guards and I believe look at the shooting average of their respective peers (PG, SG & SF) who primarily play perimeter is a necessary adjustment to make.

[catch24]

You cannot adjust those numbers and act like that's what would happen.

Assuming Jordan had all the skills and the same mindstate he did coming out of college, he'd still have MUCH better shot selection and decision making than Kobe.

With handchecking and the Bulls playing at a slow pace relative to their competition, MJ was still incredibly efficient. I mean, there's a reason Larry Brown and Phil Jackson both thought he could average 50 in today's game. Maybe not 50 as that's obvious hyperbole, but you get an idea just how much he would wreck today's league, where rules cater to the perimeter player.

[ClipperRevival]

Are you a moron?
If MJ shot 55% and the league average was 52%; that 3% is added to the rest of the years. The total is than divided by the number of years to get the AVERAGE. For instance, in a 12 year span Jordan on AVERAGE shot 2.3% higher than the league average.

If Kobe's average was 1.2%.

Than the conclusion is this.

When Jordan played, his career 2PT% was 52%. When Kobe played his career 2PT% was 48%. Jordan on average shot 2.3% higher while Kobe shot 1.2% higher.

In essence we're adjusting their numbers to see how they did relative to the era they played in.

So in Jordan's case, if he shot 52% and on average he shot 2.3%; that means the league average was 49.7%. In Kobe's case, if he shot 1.2% higher than league average, the league average was 46.8%.

To put things in perspective; if Kobe played in Jordan's era, we'd expect him to shoot (49.7% + 1.2% = 50.9%) compared to Jordan's 52%.

If Michael played in Kobe's era; we'd expect him to shoot (46.8% + 2.3% = 49.1%) compare to Kobe's 48%.

You laugh at the fact that I took the time to adjust those numbers according to perimeter positions, why exactly?

Both Jordan and Kobe were shooting guards and I believe look at the shooting average of their respective peers (PG, SG & SF) who primarily play perimeter is a necessary adjustment to make.

You really can't be THIS stupid can you? MJ shot .510% from 2. The league never averaged more than .500 in any season. So if the league averaged .499 his entire career, he is at .11% greater than the league. But the league varied from .465 to .499 during his career. So i guesstimated on top of my head that he shot about .15-20% higher.

And now you want to discard the league average and narrow it further to only "perimeter players"? Lol.

[West-Side]

You cannot adjust those numbers and act like that's what would happen.

Assuming Jordan had all the skills and the same mindstate he did coming out of college, he'd still have MUCH better shot selection and decision making than Kobe.

With handchecking and the Bulls playing at a slow pace relative to their competition, MJ was still incredibly efficient. I mean, there's a reason Larry Brown and Phil Jackson both thought he could average 50 in today's game. Maybe not 50 as that's obvious hyperbole, but you get an idea just how much he would wreck today's league, where rules cater to the perimeter player.

Of course, it's an educated assumption.
I'm not saying that's exactly what would happen; I just want people to realize that there was a difference between the two era's and simply comparing 52% vs 48% shouldn't be taken literally.

There's a clear trend in league averages going down though. This isn't just about Jordan & Kobe; it's about the evolution of the game. Go take 20 of the best guards from 85', 95', 05' & 15' and I promise you what I preach will be evident to you.

Problem with these forums is most posters don't make the effort to do this; idiots like ClipperRevival is more than comfortable calling me a "Kobe fan" and calling it a day, as if he won the argument.

Whatever.

[West-Side]

You really can't be THIS stupid can you? MJ shot .510% from 2. The league never averaged more than .500 in any season. So if the league averaged .499 his entire career, he is at .11% greater than the league. But the league varied from .465 to .499 during his career. So i guesstimated on top of my head that he shot about .15-20% higher.

And now you want to discard the league average and narrow it further to only "perimeter players"? Lol.

What?

You compare the league average for 1985 and you look at Jordan's 2PT% for that year; you subtract the difference. You do the same for every year you want to include in your analysis and you divide those differences by the sample size (# of years you've observed). That is you average difference for Michael Jordan.

You do the exact same for Kobe Bryant.
I proceeded to ADJUST the league average (2PT%) only to include PG, SG & SF to make it a little more precise since both Kobe & Michael play on the perimeter. Once I got the new league average (for perimeter players), I did exactly what I did above. I did that because big man skew the 2PT% upward usually since they score primarily in the paint. It would take a considerable effort for me to include primarily perimeter players. For instance a guy like Webber & Garnett would probably be included as perimeter players since they took a lot of jumpers.

I'm not sure how else to explain to you.

[West-Side]

You really can't be THIS stupid can you? MJ shot .510% from 2. The league never averaged more than .500 in any season. So if the league averaged .499 his entire career, he is at .11% greater than the league. But the league varied from .465 to .499 during his career. So i guesstimated on top of my head that he shot about .15-20% higher.

And now you want to discard the league average and narrow it further to only "perimeter players"? Lol.

It's 2.3% higher to be precise.
3.3% higher if you exclude the 1995 season.

[ClipperRevival]

Alright Westside, I've decided to crunch the numbers myself because I'm a basketball freak.

Below are the differences compared to the league for both guys based on the numbers YOU provided me. It's not even really close man. I don't really know what you are talking about buddy. MJ had periods where he destroyed the league average at his peak.

Jordan:

85' - (+.27%)
86' - (-.21%)
87' - (+.01%)
88' - (+.56%)
89' - (+.63%)
90' - (+.58%)
91' - (+.63%)
92' - (+.67%)
93' - (+.25%)
96' - (+.22%)
97' - (+.27%)
98' - (+.12%)

Kobe:

00' - (+.26%)
01' - (+.27%)
02' - (+.23%)
03' - (+.02%)
04' - (+.03%)
05' - (+.02%)
06' - (+.04%)
07' - (+.14%)
08' - (+.06%)
09' - (+.11%)
10' - (-.05%)
11' - (-.17%)
12' - (-.13%)

[ClipperRevival]

I knew your math was all over the place.

Again, based on the numbers YOU provided, MJ averaged .33% FG higher per season while Kobe averaged .06% FG. How is that even remotely close? MJ was averaging a whooping .27% higher than Kobe compared to the league average!!!!!!!!!

[AirFederer]

http://cdn.memepix.com/images/large/3t3nc.gif

[West-Side]

I knew your math was all over the place.

Again, based on the numbers YOU provided, MJ averaged .33% FG higher per season while Kobe averaged .06% FG. How is that even remotely close? MJ was averaging a whooping .27% higher than Kobe compared to the league average!!!!!!!!!

No I didn't actually.
I already told you Jordan was on average 3.3% higher than league average while Kobe was 1.1% higher.

You did not include Kobe's 1999 season or 2013 season.
I omitted Kobe's last two years for the same reason I omitted Jordan's last two years with Washington & his 1995 (either due to age or injuries).

Year League Average

Jordan

1985 0.499 0.526 0.027
1986 0.495 0.474 -0.021
1987 0.490 0.491 0.001
1988 0.490 0.546 0.056
1989 0.490 0.553 0.063
1990 0.488 0.548 0.060
1991 0.488 0.551 0.063
1992 0.486 0.553 0.067
1993 0.489 0.514 0.025
1994 0.483
1995 0.491
1996 0.486 0.506 0.020
1997 0.480 0.507 0.027
1998 0.470 0.482 0.012

Kobe

1999 0.457 0.494 0.037
2000 0.468 0.489 0.021
2001 0.461 0.489 0.028
2002 0.465 0.489 0.024
2003 0.463 0.465 0.002
2004 0.460 0.463 0.003
2005 0.470 0.472 0.002
2006 0.478 0.482 0.004
2007 0.485 0.497 0.012
2008 0.484 0.490 0.006
2009 0.485 0.496 0.011
2010 0.492 0.487 -0.005
2011 0.487 0.487 0.000
2012 0.477 0.464 -0.013
2013 0.488 0.510 0.022


Total score:

Jordan - .400 (divide by 12) = .0333% higher
Kobe - .154 (divide by 14) = .011% higher

Which is what I said (without including 1995 season for Jordan), the difference is 2.23%.

Which means Kobe on average shot 1.1% above league average while Jordan shot 3.33% above league average; the discrepancy therefore is 2.22 not 4% like the raw numbers suggest.

However, interestingly enough; the league average for PG, SG & SF from 1985 - 1998 [Jordan's era] is .482 (total league average is .488 for 1985 - 1998). Therefore Jordan shot 3.90% higher from 2PT% than the league average for PG, SG & SF

The league average for PG, SG & SF from 1999 - 2013 [Kobe's era] is .455 (total league average is .475 for 1999 - 2013).
Therefore Kobe shot 3.10% higher from 2PT% than the league average for PG, SG & SF.

Conclusion; the perimeter players (more or less) during Jordan's era shot on average .482 from 2PT%. During Kobe's era they shot .455 (on average).

Jordan's 2PT% average was .521 (minus .482) = .0390 (or 3.9% higher)
Kobe's 2PT% average was .485 (minus .455) = .0300 (or 3.0% higher)

Any more questions?

[ClipperRevival]

Dense. That's what your are. I broke down the basic numbers and you try to twist it. I await further "analysis" from you.:rolleyes:

[Mr Feeny]

Alright Westside, I've decided to crunch the numbers myself because I'm a basketball freak.

Below are the differences compared to the league for both guys based on the numbers YOU provided me. It's not even really close man. I don't really know what you are talking about buddy. MJ had periods where he destroyed the league average at his peak.

Jordan:

85' - (+.27%)
86' - (-.21%)
87' - (+.01%)
88' - (+.56%)
89' - (+.63%)
90' - (+.58%)
91' - (+.63%)
92' - (+.67%)
93' - (+.25%)
96' - (+.22%)
97' - (+.27%)
98' - (+.12%)

Kobe:

00' - (+.26%)
01' - (+.27%)
02' - (+.23%)
03' - (+.02%)
04' - (+.03%)
05' - (+.02%)
06' - (+.04%)
07' - (+.14%)
08' - (+.06%)
09' - (+.11%)
10' - (-.05%)
11' - (-.17%)
12' - (-.13%)


Goodness me. Into the bodybag goes the Kobe stan:lol

[Mr Feeny]

PG is my boy, but Jimmy Butler and Rose were better players than him, especially in the postseason.

You just cannot compare last years Bulls to this years Lakers. That Lakers team was flat-out garbage.

Nobody was or is comparing last year's Bulls to those Lakers teams just like nobody in his right mind is comparing Kobe's Phil Jackson coached teams to the dross that Gasol had to work with in Memphis, except that WestKid (or whatever this Kobe stan is called) is denigrating Gasol by spamming the thread with "Gasol was 0-20 without Kobe "until 2014" while Kobe won titles without Gasol."

As you rightly stated, you can't compare different teams. Having Shaq average 40 ppg on 60%fg while Kobe averages 15 ppg on a typically abysmal 36%fg should not count in his favor. Gasol wasn't luckly enough to have Shaq carrying him the way Kobe did.
And why the comparison ends at 2014 is beyond me. He's talking about how Kobe won without Gasol and Gasol was unable to get a single playoff win without Kobe. Several people pointed out that Gasol had more playoff wins last year alone with Kobe than Kobe has had in his entire CAREER without Shaq or Gasol.

Cheers

[West-Side]

Dense. That's what your are. I broke down the basic numbers and you try to twist it. I await further "analysis" from you.:rolleyes:

I seriously can't believe someone can be this stupid.
You truly are a special kind of stupid. My argument is not that Kobe shot better compared to league average; my argument is that it's a lot closer than the 4% discrepancy you see on their respective stat sheet. You probably never took a basic statistics class, so you brain cells can't ignite in order to grasp this simple concept.

I'll explain it to you another way.
If Kobe played in Jordan's era his 2PT% would actually be .499 (.488 + .011) not 48%. He played in an era where the league average was .475 and thus Kobe shot .486 on average.

However, if you observe the league average for perimeter players it's even more telling. During Jordan's era, perimeter players shot on average .482 from 2PT% while in Kobe's era the average was .455.

So Jordan shot .520 in an era where the average 2PT% was .482 while Kobe shot .486 in an era where the average 2PT% was .455. :rolleyes:

How is that difficult to comprehend.
Jordan shot 3.8% higher during his era.
So if you take that 3.8% and assume he played during the time Kobe played basketball, his 2PT% drops to roughly (.455 + .038 = .493).

To elaborate on what I mean, I've created a group of 15 perimeter players from 1990 and 2005 just to give you a small sample of my work. (below are each player's career 2PT%)

1990

Clyde Drexler - .498
John Stockton - .541
Magic Johnson - .541
Kevin Johnson - .504
Dominique Wilkins - .478
Tim Hardaway (89'-96' he shot .488; 97'-02' he shot .447) LOL
Mitch Richmond - .474
Reggie Miller - .516
Chris Mullin - .533
James Worthy - .532
Larry Nance - .548
Joe Dumars - .480
Derek Harper - .494
Glen Rice - (.480 up until 97'; .455 afterwards)
Terry Porter - .493

Average 2PT% - .507


2005

Tracy McGrady - .461
Ray Allan - .485
Allen Iverson - .448
LeBron James - .535
Dwayne Wade - .511
Dirk Nowitzki - .498
Steve Nash - .518
Vince Carter - .462
Michael Redd - .475
Steve Francis - .451
Gilbert Arenas - .458
Paul Pierce - .478
Tony Parker - .513
Carmelo Anthony - .476
Joe Johnson - .472

Average 2PT% - .483

Look at how five of the greatest shooters ever stack up.

Mullin - .533
Stockton - .541
Nash - .518
Nowtizki - .498
Ray Allen - .485

For god sakes, Mullin's career 2PT% is almost as good as LeBron James who gets a lot of his point due to his physical prowess (dunks and layups).

Look at the difference between volume scorers:

Drexler - .498
Worthy - .532
Wilkins - .478
King - .521

Anthony - .476
Wade -.511
McGrady -.461
Carter -.462
Pierce -.478

Look at the difference between smaller guards

Kevin Johnson (6'1) - .504
Derek Harper (6'4) - .494
Terry Porter (6'3) - .493

Allen Iverson -.448
Gilbert Arenas -.451
Steve Francis -.451

Heck I didn't even include guys like Larry Bird.
Heck Jeff Hornacek shot better from 2PT% than guys like Chris Paul, Dwayne Wade and Ray Allen. :oldlol:

Fact is buddy, when Jordan played there were a lot of examples of players having really high 2PT%. I mean five of those players I listed that played in Jordan's era either had a higher or similar 2PT% to that of LeBron James.

Comprehend that for a minute.
ALL OF THEM WERE PERIMETER PLAYERS.

[West-Side]

Kevin Durant's 2PT% is lower than Chris Mullin by almost 2%.

Steph's Curry MVP season; he shot .528 from 2PT% which is not greater than Chris Mullin's career AVERAGE.

Was Mullin a better career shooter than Steph Curry last season? :rolleyes:
Sometimes you need to give stats context dickhead.

[ClipperRevival]

The truth is simple, lies require a lot of explaining.

I used the numbers YOU provided against you. Your numbers proved that MJ shot .33% higher than the league while Kobe shot .06% higher than the league.

[West-Side]

The truth is simple, lies require a lot of explaining.

I used the numbers YOU provided against you. Your numbers proved that MJ shot .33% higher than the league while Kobe shot .06% higher than the league.

What? :oldlol:
I guess stupid will stay stupid.

Welcome to the ignore list jackass.
Go get an education.

[ClipperRevival]

Alright Westside, I've decided to crunch the numbers myself because I'm a basketball freak.

Below are the differences compared to the league for both guys based on the numbers YOU provided me. It's not even really close man. I don't really know what you are talking about buddy. MJ had periods where he destroyed the league average at his peak.

Jordan:

85' - (+.27%)
86' - (-.21%)
87' - (+.01%)
88' - (+.56%)
89' - (+.63%)
90' - (+.58%)
91' - (+.63%)
92' - (+.67%)
93' - (+.25%)
96' - (+.22%)
97' - (+.27%)
98' - (+.12%)

Kobe:

00' - (+.26%)
01' - (+.27%)
02' - (+.23%)
03' - (+.02%)
04' - (+.03%)
05' - (+.02%)
06' - (+.04%)
07' - (+.14%)
08' - (+.06%)
09' - (+.11%)
10' - (-.05%)
11' - (-.17%)
12' - (-.13%)

Numbers you provided. :hammerhead:

[kshutts1]

Numbers you provided. :hammerhead:
Where/how did you get your numbers? Because I came up with the same numbers that west-side did.

[ClipperRevival]

Where/how did you get your numbers? Because I came up with the same numbers that west-side did.

Calculate the difference between MJ/Kobe 2 PT FG% with the league 2 PT FG% average for every season. Simple addition/subtraction. No twisting of the stats. Just pure, raw data as it is.

[kshutts1]

Calculate the difference between MJ/Kobe 2 PT FG% with the league 2 PT FG% average for every season. Simple addition/subtraction. No twisting of the stats. Just pure, raw data as it is.
Using what base data? The numbers provided by west-side?

[kshutts1]

Just crunched west-side's numbers.

Over the 13 year sample size given, Jordan shot, on average, 2.3% higher than league average.

Over the 14 year sample size, Kobe shot, on average, 1.1% higher than league average.

Basically... they shot a near identical %, as relative-to-peers is more telling and more appropriate than just the raw data.

Kudos to west-side for bringing that info into the thread (a long time ago).
Because this is what I got using West-side's numbers. In excel, so there's no human error element at all.

This was using Jordan's '95 season. Taking that out, his numbers go higher.
What did you do to lower Kobe's so dramatically?

[ClipperRevival]

No you're just a moron.

85' - .499 / 110.8 PPG
86' - .495 / 110.2 PPG
87' - .490 / 109.9 PPG
88' - .490 / 108.2 PPG
89' - .490 / 109.2 PPG
90' - .488 / 107.0 PPG
91' - .488 / 106.3 PPG
92' - .486 / 105.3 PPG
93' - .489 / 105.3 PPG
94' - .483 / 101.5 PPG
95' - .491 / 101.4 PPG
96' - .486 / 99.5 PPG
97' - .480 / 96.9 PPG
98' - .470 / 95.6 PPG
99' - .457 / 91.6 PPG
2000 - .468 / 97.5 PPG
01' - .461 / 94.8 PPG
02' - .465 / 95.5 PPG
03' - .463 / 95.1 PPG
04' - .460 / 93.4 PPG
05' - .470 / 97.2 PPG
06' - .478 / 97.0 PPG
07' - .485 / 98.7 PPG
08' - .484 / 99.9 PPG
09' - .485 / 100.0 PPG
10' - .492 / 100.4 PPG
11' - .487 / 99.6 PPG
12' - .477 / 96.3 PPG

League averages, just to show you what I mean (2PT% - PPG).

Jordan:

85' - .526 / 28.2
86' - .474 / 22.7
87' - .491 / 37.1
88' - .546 / 35.0
89' - .553 / 32.5
90' - .548 / 33.6
91' - .551 / 31.5
92' - .553 / 30.1
93' - .514 / 32.6
95' - .403 / 26.9
96' - .506 / 30.4
97' - .507 / 29.6
98' - .482 / 28.7

Kobe:

00' - .494 / 22.5
01' - .489 / 28.5
02' - .489 / 25.2
03' - .465 / 30.0
04' - .463 / 24.0
05' - .472 / 27.6
06' - .482 / 35.4
07' - .497 / 31.6
08' - .490 / 28.3
09' - .496 / 26.8
10' - .487 / 27.0
11' - .487 / 25.3
12' - .464 / 27.9
13' - .510 / 27.3

I'm just trying to show you that taking into account the era these guy played matters a hell of a lot. Playing in the 80's and early 90's allowed Jordan to inflate his numbers. The same reason if you compare SG's from that same time to SG's from 00' to 13'; the FG% and PPG is significantly higher for the SG's during Jordan's era.

The discrepancy between their 2PT% isn't as large as the stats will lead you to believe.

Again, do a simple trend analysis on the numbers I posted and buy a ****ing clue.

Kutts, there you go.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I think Kobe stans are worse than LeBron stans now....

[kshutts1]

Kutts, there you go.
You left in Jordan's '95 season, even though you didn't use that one.

What ones, of Kobe's, did you take out? Because you either took out some years, or you messed up. Both West-side and I got the same base numbers prior to removing anything. So again.. what did you change?

[SwayDizzle]

I think Kobe stans are worse than LeBron stans now....
KB for the win

[ClipperRevival]

You left in Jordan's '95 season, even though you didn't use that one.

What ones, of Kobe's, did you take out? Because you either took out some years, or you messed up. Both West-side and I got the same base numbers prior to removing anything. So again.. what did you change?

Took out MJ's 1995 season because he only played 17 games and couldn't use Kobe's 2013 season because he didn't provide the league average for that year. Other than that, i used all the date provided. It's simple addition/subtraction.

[West-Side]

You left in Jordan's '95 season, even though you didn't use that one.

What ones, of Kobe's, did you take out? Because you either took out some years, or you messed up. Both West-side and I got the same base numbers prior to removing anything. So again.. what did you change?

I included Kobe's 2013 & 1999 season; I did not include Jordan's 1995 season. I also did not include Kobe's 2014 & 2015 seasons and his rookie/sophmore years; as I did not include Jordan's two seasons with Washington.

I get 3.3% & 1.1% respectively.
I did that on a spreadsheet.

But my analysis goes deeper than that.
I took the time to evaluate the 2P% average those years only for perimeter position players (SG, SF & PG). During the time Kobe played, the average 2P% was .455 and during Jordan's era it was .482. (substantial difference)

That idiot can only evaluate raw data because he's brain dead and has no clue what regression analysis is.

Also, the trend analysis I did gives me a clear indication of a steady decline in 2PT% from 1985 to 2009. In the last few years there was no trend as it keeps fluctuating.

The standard error was small telling me that when I ran the multiple regression analysis, there is indication of a CLEAR decline in 2PT%. A high SE would have told me that the variation could mean misrepresentation in data used. Again, basic statistical analysis.

I didn't use FG% because (for example) in 1985, there were like 400 3 point shots attempted, last year there were nearly 2000 3 point shots attempted.

So that would have skewed my data completely.

[ClipperRevival]

I included Kobe's 2013 & 1999 season; I did not include Jordan's 1995 season. I also did not include Kobe's 2014 & 2015 seasons and his rookie/sophmore years; as I did not include Jordan's two seasons with Washington.

I get 3.3% & 1.1% respectively.
I did that on a spreadsheet.

But my analysis goes deeper than that.
I took the time to evaluate the 2P% average those years only for perimeter position players (SG, SF & PG). During the time Kobe played, the average 2P% was .455 and during Jordan's era it was .482. (substantial difference)

That idiot can only evaluate raw data because he's brain dead and has no clue what regression analysis is.

Also, the trend analysis I did gives me a clear indication of a steady decline in 2PT% from 1985 to 2009. In the last few years there was no trend as it keeps fluctuating.

The standard error was small telling me that when I ran the multiple regression analysis, there is indication of a CLEAR decline in 2PT%. A high SE would have told me that the variation could mean misrepresentation in data used. Again, basic statistical analysis.

I didn't use FG% because (for example) in 1985, there were like 400 3 point shots attempted, last year there were nearly 2000 3 point shots attempted.

So that would have skewed my data completely.

Like I said, you provided the raw data. And all that was required was simple addition/subtraction to comprehend the data. There was no need to run a regression analysis on an Excel spreadsheet with such simple data unless if you had a motive. And we all know what that motive is. To try to make Kobe as close to MJ as possible.

And you further twisted the numbers by not providing the RAW difference in FG pct but using the percentage difference, which further makes the difference appear smaller. And you further twisted the data by only including "perimeter" players. Like I said, if you want to waste further time with this, go ahead. But the bottom line is, I used YOUR data that you provided and calculated it at its simplest form.

I'm seriously done with this man.

[Mr Feeny]

I included Kobe's 2013 & 1999 season; I did not include Jordan's 1995 season. I also did not include Kobe's 2014 & 2015 seasons and his rookie/sophmore years; as I did not include Jordan's two seasons with Washington.

I get 3.3% & 1.1% respectively.
I did that on a spreadsheet.

But my analysis goes deeper than that.
I took the time to evaluate the 2P% average those years only for perimeter position players (SG, SF & PG). During the time Kobe played, the average 2P% was .455 and during Jordan's era it was .482. (substantial difference)

That idiot can only evaluate raw data because he's brain dead and has no clue what regression analysis is.

Also, the trend analysis I did gives me a clear indication of a steady decline in 2PT% from 1985 to 2009. In the last few years there was no trend as it keeps fluctuating.

The standard error was small telling me that when I ran the multiple regression analysis, there is indication of a CLEAR decline in 2PT%. A high SE would have told me that the variation could mean misrepresentation in data used. Again, basic statistical analysis.

I didn't use FG% because (for example) in 1985, there were like 400 3 point shots attempted, last year there were nearly 2000 3 point shots attempted.

So that would have skewed my data completely.

I got the same numbers he did. Did you fail elementary mathematics?

[West-Side]

Kobe

1999 0.457 0.494 0.037
2000 0.468 0.489 0.021
2001 0.461 0.489 0.028
2002 0.465 0.489 0.024
2003 0.463 0.465 0.002
2004 0.460 0.463 0.003
2005 0.470 0.472 0.002
2006 0.478 0.482 0.004
2007 0.485 0.497 0.012
2008 0.484 0.490 0.006
2009 0.485 0.496 0.011
2010 0.492 0.487 -0.005
2011 0.487 0.487 0.000
2012 0.477 0.464 -0.013
2013 0.488 0.510 0.022

Add the numbers bolded for you (total is 0.1540) now divide by the number of years sampled (15). I actually made a mistake and thought it was 14 years I sampled. So his average is 1.03% above the league, not 1.1% that I previously calculated.

Still no where near the 0.6% that the idiot calculated.

[ClipperRevival]

Kobe

1999 0.457 0.494 0.037
2000 0.468 0.489 0.021
2001 0.461 0.489 0.028
2002 0.465 0.489 0.024
2003 0.463 0.465 0.002
2004 0.460 0.463 0.003
2005 0.470 0.472 0.002
2006 0.478 0.482 0.004
2007 0.485 0.497 0.012
2008 0.484 0.490 0.006
2009 0.485 0.496 0.011
2010 0.492 0.487 -0.005
2011 0.487 0.487 0.000
2012 0.477 0.464 -0.013
2013 0.488 0.510 0.022

Add the numbers bolded for you (total is 0.1540) now divide by the number of years sampled (15). I actually made a mistake and thought it was 14 years I sampled. So his average is 1.03% above the league, not 1.1% that I previously calculated.

Still no where near the 0.6% that the idiot calculated.

You didn't provide Kobe's 1999 numbers and the 2013 league numbers in your original post. So those weren't in my calculations. And like I said, I used YOUR data. You don't even know your own numbers dumbass. :hammerhead:

[Mr Feeny]

You didn't provide Kobe's 1999 numbers and the 2013 league numbers in your original post. So those weren't in my calculations. And like I said, I used YOUR data. You don't even know your own numbers dumbass. :hammerhead:

Zip that body bag:lol

[West-Side]

Hey moron.

The reason why MJ's shooting pct dipped from 1996 - 1998 was because he had taken 2 years off and came back at 33-35.

And the reason why FG pct was higher for guards in MJ's days was because the league shot significantly less 3 pointers.

Love how you dumb fu*ks who probably don't even play the game try to sound intelligent with these misleading stats.

Carry on dumb Kobe fan.

What this moron said initially.
He didn't even have a clue about what numbers I posted. Trying to reason with me about 3 point shooting.

Why would I expect him to understand anything further? :oldlol:

Bottom line, 2PT% was significantly less for perimeter players when comparing the time Kobe played (in his prime) and when Jordan played (in his prime).

You adjust those numbers accordingly and you'll see that their 2PT% is actually a lot closer. Not to mention Kobe was a far more lethal 3 point shooter throughout his career.

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts

And slightly better at the line.

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

:pimp:

Rest in peace jackass.

[kshutts1]

1) I also got 1.1% for Kobe, so I'm really curious as to how Clippers got .6%.

2) Kobe is a significantly better 3p shooter, but your comparison didn't show that. Jordan's 3p percentage is inflated due to close 3p line for two seasons. Take out those two years and it's around 29% (I did that before to prove a point).

3) Can you cite the sources for your 2p% and league average 2p%? Just makes it look more legit.

4) I wonder what Jordan's and Kobe's PPS, relative to league average, would be.

[West-Side]

1) I also got 1.1% for Kobe, so I'm really curious as to how Clippers got .6%.

2) Kobe is a significantly better 3p shooter, but your comparison didn't show that. Jordan's 3p percentage is inflated due to close 3p line for two seasons. Take out those two years and it's around 29% (I did that before to prove a point).

3) Can you cite the sources for your 2p% and league average 2p%? Just makes it look more legit.

4) I wonder what Jordan's and Kobe's PPS, relative to league average, would be.


1) It's my fault, in my previous post I did not include Kobe's 1999 and 2013 season, so he calculated .6% based on the numbers I posted.

2) Yes and Kobe also took way more 3 point shots and still has a higher 3PT%. Kobe's range was far superior to Jordan's. The man could take fade away 3's and nail it. Just look at his game against Portland from back in the day. The man tied the game with a fade away 3 as time was running out. And as you said, Jordan had the benefit of taking 3's from a shorter distance for 2 seasons. There really is no question on who was a better long range shooter between the two.

3) I used basketball reference to get the 2PT%. I took the NBA average per season from the website and than took the time to exclude all the PF's and C's from the calculation. I essentially used this approach.

a) Take all the perimeter players; (FGM - 3PM) / (FGA - 3PA).
I used excel to process this data and it did take me a while. However, I imported the data into excel and simply embedded that formula by cell referencing.

I sorted all the players by position and deleted C/PF's. I than deleted all the irrelevant stats and left FGM, FGA, 3PTM, 3PTA.

The reason I did this is because I couldn't just take their 2PT% and divide by the # of players because it wouldn't give me a weighted average number. So I had to do it the accurate way.

So for instance:

Kobe: 500 for 1000 overall, 45 for 150 from 3.
In excel I would do the following: (500-45) / (1000-150) --> 455 / 850.
This gave me his 2PT% only.

However using excel it's all automated so once I only had PG, SG & SF's on my spreadsheet, I simply cell referenced the formula and calculated every player's 2PT%.

I summed up all the FGA, FGM, 3PM & 3PTA at the bottom and it gave me the weighted average 2PT% for that specific season.

I than added all the TOTALS for each season to give me an idea of how different the 2PT% was for perimeter players only.

As I've said it isn't 100% accurate because there are bigs like Dirk or Rasheed Wallace or Sabonis or Webber or Vlade Divac or Garnett etc. who could be considered perimeter players because they do have a mid-range game, so keep that in mind.

4) That's very easy to do; maybe I'll do that for you in a bit, sounds fair?

[f0und]

jordan just has too many advantages in categories overall. some are minor advantages and some are obvious. kobe has just a few advantages and they're marginal at best. add it all up and its jordan in a landslide.

[West-Side]

Unreal, just wasted nearly 50 minutes of my time creating a post that outlines Jordan & Kobe's PPS compared to league average and the ****ing website froze on me and I lost all that work.

:mad: :banghead:

I'll re-do it in a bit, pissed right off.
Jordan shot 10% above league average from 1985-1993 & 1996-1998.

I'll re-do everything again soon.

[jstern]

Jordan had the benefit of a shorter 3 point line for two season and 17 games. And Kobe had the benefit of having the shorter 3 point line for one season.

Jordan also used to shoot bail out 3 point shots early in his career, and like most players, say Larry Bird, he had a better percentage when he shot it more, due too rythym. The one season Jordan decided to make the 3 pointer a part of his game, in 89-90 he shot it better than all but one of Kobe's 20 season, not including the season Kobe played with the short line. Which tells you a lot about what Jordan's ability would be if he made it part of his game.

Also I've seen Jordan make around 3 fade away 3 pointers to beat the clock, and they all went in. You guys talk as if Kobe is Ray Allen, and all he does is shoot fade away 3s.

[West-Side]

Jordan had the benefit of a shorter 3 point line for two season and 17 games. And Kobe had the benefit of having the shorter 3 point line for one season.

Jordan also used to shoot bail out 3 point shots early in his career, and like most players, say Larry Bird, he had a better percentage when he shot it more, due too rythym. The one season Jordan decided to make the 3 pointer a part of his game, in 89-90 he shot it better than all but one of Kobe's 20 season, not including the season Kobe played with the short line. Which tells you a lot about what Jordan's ability would be if he made it part of his game.

Also I've seen Jordan make around 3 fade away 3 pointers to beat the clock, and they all went in. You guys talk as if Kobe is Ray Allen, and all he does is shoot fade away 3s.

:rolleyes: :facepalm Kobe has a higher 3PT% while having over 3,500 more attempts for his career. Jordan fan boys are pathetic.

Kobe has taken many ill advised 3 point shots; sometimes he'd take a 35+ foot 3 point shot just because he's hot. His decision making aren't his strength that's for sure; but he still shot better than Jordan from the 3 point line.

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KobeClutchSS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JLeCIzs.jpg


Two crazy 3's Versus Portland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u7xSy0oP5E)

Vs Toronto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn4xXGdY0XA)

Left handed 3 point shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwe_1GkKbQ)

[West-Side]

Michael Jordan

1985
Jordan - 2313 on 1625 - 1.423 PPS
League - 9089 on 7268 - 1.244 PPS

1986
Jordan - 408 on 328 - 1.244
League - 9038 on 7268 - 1.244

1987
Jordan - 3041 on 2279 - 1.334
League - 9015 on 7281 - 1.238

1988
Jordan - 2868 on 1998 - 1.435
League - 8869 on 7193 - 1.233

1989
Jordan - 2633 on 1795 - 1.467
League - 8952 on 7295 - 1.227

1990
Jordan - 2753 on 1964 - 1.402
League - 8773 on 7146 - 1.228

1991
Jordan - 2580 on 1837 - 1.404
League - 8717 on 7150 - 1.219

1992
Jordan - 2404 on 1818 - 1.322
League - 8635 on 7163 - 1.206

1993
Jordan - 2541 on 2003 - 1.269
League - 8632 on 7048 - 1.225

1996
Jordan - 2491 on 1850 - 1.346
League - 8159 on 6575 - 1.241

1997
Jordan - 2431 on 1892 - 1.285
League - 7946 on 6503 - 1.222

1998
Jordan - 2357 on 1893 - 1.245
League - 7837 on 6536 - 1.245

Overall
Jordan - 28,820 points on 21,282 shots - 1.354 PPS
League - 103,662 points on 84,464 shots - 1.227 PPS

Jordan shot 10.34% higher than league average.

Kobe Bryant

1999
Kobe - 996 on 779 - 1.279
League - 4579 on 3910 - 1.171

2000
Kobe - 1485 on 1183 - 1.255
League - 7993 on 6732 - 1.187

2001
Kobe - 1938 on 1510 - 1.283
League - 7774 on 6609 - 1.176

2002
Kobe - 2019 on 1597 - 1.264
League - 7829 on 6664 - 1.175

2003
Kobe - 2461 on 1924 - 1.279
League - 7797 on 6624 - 1.177

2004
Kobe - 1557 on 1178 - 1.322
League - 7659 on 6545 - 1.170

2005
Kobe - 1819 on 1324 - 1.374
League - 7970 on 6588 - 1.210

2006
Kobe - 2832 on 2173 - 1.303
League - 7955 on 6477 - 1.228

2007
Kobe - 2430 on 1757 - 1.383
League - 8097 on 6536 - 1.239

2008
Kobe - 2323 on 1690 - 1.375
League - 8194 on 6683 - 1.226

2009
Kobe - 2201 on 1712 - 1.286
League - 8196 on 6635 - 1.235

2010
Kobe - 1970 on 1569 - 1.256
League - 8237 on 6700 - 1.229

2011
Kobe - 2078 on 1639 - 1.268
League - 8163 on 6660 - 1.226

2012
Kobe - 1616 on 1336 - 1.210
League - 6353 on 5374 - 1.182

2013
Kobe - 2133 on 1595 - 1.337
League - 8041 on 6720 - 1.197

Overall
Kobe - 29,858 points on 22,966 shots - 1.300 PPS
League - 114,837 points on 95,457 shots - 1.203 PPS

Kobe shot 8.07% higher than the league average.

Perimeter Players
For the same exact time frame:

Jordan era: 74,637 points on 62,503 shots - 1.194 PPS
Kobe era: 87,276 points on 76,366 shots - 1.143 PPS

Jordan shot 13.41& higher than perimeter players.
Kobe shot 13.76% higher than perimeter players.

[West-Side]

Kobe has always shot above league average; Jordan did not in 1998 (he tied the league average) and 1986 (tied again).
In 1986 he did get injured though.

[West-Side]

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

And slightly better at the line.

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)


Just a brief summary of my work.