the other day i convinced a Jordan fan that Kobe was better

[kennethgriffin]

we were having a discussion about floyd mayweathers place all time

we both agreed that he didnt face enough competition


he said "he beat a washed up manny pacquiao"

so then i said "well then why is jordan the greatest? he beat a washed up magic. name the other great wing players that were in the nba when jordan won titles

he couldnt even name one

i told him reggie miller was the next biggest star wing player in the nba during the 90's not named michael jordan ( other than his team mate scottie pippen )



then he said "ok name the ones from kobes era"


i run off names:

Tmac






Iverson






Vince




Pierce





Ray




Ginobili




Lebron




Wade




Rose




Melo



Durant




Westbrook



Curry




Harden




and so on....



and so on.......




he says "STOP! stop! ... you made your point :oldlol: "


and he shook my hand "you got me" he said

and that was it

[Rocketswin2013]

The 90's era was pretty atrocious from the 1 - 3 compared to this era but the center position is atrocious compared to the centers of the 90's. It probably balances out.

[kennethgriffin]

The 90's era was pretty atrocious from the 1 - 3 compared to this era but the center position is atrocious compared to the centers of the 90's. It probably balances out.


which is why rodman and grant deserve more credit than they get


rodman used to make shaq his b*tch

:oldlol:

[Young X]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

To a retard customer in the McDonald's drive thru, trying to appease you to get his Big Mac quicker? Congrats on the life accomplishment Kenny.

[HOoopCityJones]

Everyone knows the 90's was a Big man's Era. 00's was the wing era. Doesn't take away from the fact Jordan was the most dominant during that time and cemented himself as The Goat.

[kennethgriffin]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg


mayweather has better stats/accomplishments than allot of guys ahead of him all time


its about era's


jordan was the best player in the WORST do it all wing era of all time


who gives a crap... mayweathers the best during the worst boxing era of all time


same shit

[I<3NBA]

Jordan made all of his competition look like trash. he was so dominant his competition went ringless.

[kennethgriffin]

Jordan made all of his competition look like trash. he was so dominant his competition went ringless.


jordan made the next biggest star wing ( reggie miller ) and all others like him ... average 18ppg, be nobodies commercially, have no real star power?

jordan silenced these guys? na


its possible to have multiple star wings in the nba. even when one of them is a top 5 player all time

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm sure his arguments were excellent

http://brooklynink.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/IMG_2757.jpg

[FKAri]

Mayweather's beaten more than just a washed up Manny but what would you know about that? You think Kobe's better than Jordan :oldlol:

[catch24]

Bet he wasn't even a Jordan fan. Probably some johnny come lately who saw his highlights and was instantly enamored.

Nobody in the right mental state, or that's taken seriously legitimately thinks Kobe is better than Jordan.

[Bankaii]

Lol at you just naming random players as if Kobe was their opponents. Durant, Westbook, Harden, Curry, and Rose all didn't become relevant until 2011, when Kobe became irrelevant...

[kennethgriffin]

Mayweather's beaten more than just a washed up Manny but what would you know about that? You think Kobe's better than Jordan :oldlol:

sugar ray robinson is better
muhammad ali is better
roberto duran is better
joe louis is better
mike tyson is better
rocky marciano is better
george forman is better
joe frazier is better
evander holyfield is better
lennox lewis is better


and many others are better too


and mayweathers had a better career than allot of these guys


ducking fighters till theyre washed up trash isnt how you make a name for yourself

some of it isnt his fault. like the era he was in. but he did protect his record

[Cali Syndicate]

Yes lets compare boxing to basketball. While we're at it, what about comparing golf to football. Or how about tennis to hockey...

[Young X]

Name the star wing players Kobe faced in the playoffs while in his prime.

Iverson
Pierce
Allen
Melo

Who else?

[DonDadda59]

You'll convert them all eventually, Kenny. One person at a time. :cheers:

I also like that half the names you posted were/are active when Kobe is completely washed up and irrelevant as a basketball player.

How is name-dropping Bron supporting Kobe's case as the best when Bron is a better player than Kobe? :confusedshrug:

That's like someone trying to argue that Penny Hardaway is better than James Harden and using Michael Jordan's name to make that case. It makes no sense whatsoever. But maybe it's just me...

[kennethgriffin]

Lol at you just naming random players as if Kobe was their opponents. Durant, Westbook, Harden, Curry, and Rose all didn't become relevant until 2011, when Kobe became irrelevant...


you're f*cking jacka**


2011 kobe = 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense ( contending team )
2012 kobe = 1st team all nba, 2nd team all defense ( contending team )
2013 kobe = 1st team all nba ( contending team )


and what about these other superstar wings colluding to rig finals appearances/rings


3 of those names i mentioned were on the winning team in 2013

2 of those names took kobe out of the 2012 playoffs

who stood in the way of kobe having any mvp chances? multiple superstar wings i mentioned

[kennethgriffin]

You'll convert them all eventually, Kenny. One person at a time. :cheers:

I also like that half the names you posted were/are active when Kobe is completely washed up and irrelevant as a basketball player.

How is name-dropping Bron supporting Kobe's case as the best when Bron is a better player than Kobe? :confusedshrug:

That's like someone trying to argue that Penny Hardaway is better than James Harden and using Michael Jordan's name to make that case. It makes no sense whatsoever. But maybe it's just me...


nobody really brings up lebron anymore. he's the butt of jokes these days

that 2 for 6 really has turned the fans into closet lehomers

its hard to boast publicly if youre a fan of his. what the hell can you really talk about

[DonDadda59]

nobody really brings up lebron anymore. he's the butt of jokes these days

that 2 for 6 really has turned the fans into closet lehomers

its hard to boast publicly if youre a fan of his. what the hell can you really talk about

Now you're just convoluting the whole thing even further. So you're saying now that Bron is trash... but since he's in the league while Bean is playing the lottery in LA... that means Bean>Jordan?

I'm confused. :confusedshrug:

[GrapeApe]

Comparing a team sport in the same context as an individual sport is logically flawed. This should go without saying.

[kennethgriffin]

Name the star wing players Kobe faced in the playoffs while in his prime.

Iverson
Pierce
Allen
Melo

Who else?


oh i get it... so i guess hakeems rockets didnt really win the 1994 or 1995 title

cause jordan didnt face them


and jordans titles dont count either. he never beat hakeem


sorry man but its about plausibility. if a superstar mega powerhouse is in the nba... hes another risk. another mvp vote getter costing you trophies. another guy other players wanna team up with. another guy taking viewers/sponsorship/media away from your brand. another guy costing you scoring titles. another guy that COULD be against you in the finals.

nothing can be taken away if they never meet up.

thats just a necessary risk that you have to be conscious about and worry about. causing more stress/pressure to succeed and be the best of your era

jordan never had these problems


and yes.. its sad that i had to use a center as an example.. thats the closest thing to a rival jordan ever had

a guy he never faced who was 7 feet tall and would never even match up with him

[Bankaii]

you're f*cking jacka**


2011 kobe = 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense ( contending team )
2012 kobe = 1st team all nba, 2nd team all defense ( contending team )
2013 kobe = 1st team all nba ( contending team )


and what about these other superstar wings colluding to rig finals appearances/rings


3 of those names i mentioned were on the winning team in 2013

2 of those names took kobe out of the 2012 playoffs

who stood in the way of kobe having any mvp chances? multiple superstar wings i mentioned
You moron, to be an opponent it has to be s competition.
Why are Kobetards so obsessed with the regular season? You idiots jerk off to "5 rangz" but only use his regular season achievements. Is it because you realize some of his rings don't hold up?

You're relevance is made in the playoffs. Last time Kobe was relevant was 2010, since then he's been a first round exit or missed playoffs machine. So no, those 5 wing players are not apart of his "era".

[kennethgriffin]

Now you're just convoluting the whole thing even further. So you're saying now that Bron is trash... but since he's in the league while Bean is playing the lottery in LA... that means Bean>Jordan?

I'm confused. :confusedshrug:


i never said lebron was trash


i said hes an embarrassment to his fans

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm sure his arguments were excellent

http://brooklynink.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/IMG_2757.jpg
Reported. Lots of Insidehoops posters have down syndrome, this is offensive.

[ShawkFactory]

This is wildly false :lol

Just look at their playoff numbers.

When game plans and defense ramp up, Jordan becomes even more of a killer. Kobe does not.

They're comparable, but Kobe has actually no argument.

And this doesn't include their career accomplishments at all. Jordan could have a couple more rings and MVPs if he didn't decide that basketball was too easy.

He isn't above Kobe purely because of accolades. He was just better matey.

I'd have Phil explain it for you but you won't listen. He doesn't like to waste his time.

[kennethgriffin]

You moron, to be an opponent it has to be s competition.
Why are Kobetards so obsessed with the regular season? You idiots jerk off to "5 rangz" but only use his regular season achievements. Is it because you realize some of his rings don't hold up?

You're relevance is made in the playoffs. Last time Kobe was relevant was 2010, since then he's been a first round exit or missed playoffs machine. So no, those 5 wing players are not apart of his "era".



its funny because if steph curry never existed. kobe never has that achilles injury.

it came in a game against the warriors. and the lakers dont need kobe to push himself nearly as much vs a warriors team minus curry

that injury alone cost kobe a possible 6th title and the all time scoring record

[Round Mound]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg

:applause: :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

i never said lebron was trash


i said hes an embarrassment to his fans

But you still used him to make an argument that Bean>Jordan? :confusedshrug:

You do realize that when Jordan was on the Wizards, they had a better record then the current Lakers and MJ saw Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Pierce on the regular?

A 38 year old Jordan dropped 32 on Pierce's head in '02 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU)

Crossed up Vince (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_LI72xXQEI)

Duked it out with T-Mac (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMfoloFI8Zg)

So... what are we talking about here? :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

This is wildly false :lol

Just look at their playoff numbers.

When game plans and defense ramp up, Jordan becomes even more of a killer. Kobe does not.

They're comparable, but Kobe has actually no argument.

And this doesn't include their career accomplishments at all. Jordan could have a couple more rings and MVPs if he didn't decide that basketball was too easy.

He isn't above Kobe purely because of accolades. He was just better matey.

I'd have Phil explain it for you but you won't listen. He doesn't like to waste his time.
Phil Jackson said "flip a coin" between who he would pick between MJ and Kobe.

Then proceeded to say Bill Russell is his number one pick all-time.

So is that the answer you'd want him to explain to OP?

Proof:
http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,2404524849001_2144159,00.html

[kennethgriffin]

Phil Jackson said "flip a coin" between who he would pick between MJ and Kobe.

Then proceeded to say Bill Russell is his number one pick all-time.

So is that the answer you'd want him to explain to OP?

Proof:
http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,2404524849001_2144159,00.html


phil also said this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw

[sportjames23]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg


Ether.

[ShawkFactory]

Phil Jackson said "flip a coin" between who he would pick between MJ and Kobe.

Then proceeded to say Bill Russell is his number one pick all-time.

So is that the answer you'd want him to explain to OP?

Proof:
http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,2404524849001_2144159,00.html
Man...he's been asked about comparing the two of them a thousand times. You can pick one where he says flip a coin...then you could pick the many others where he says Jordan is better. Have you read his autobiography?

Also, what the hell? You know OP is full of shit too can't you just let us enjoy ourselves?

[Young X]

oh i get it... so i guess hakeems rockets didnt really win the 1994 or 1995 title

cause jordan didnt face them


and jordans titles dont count either. he never beat hakeem


sorry man but its about plausibility. if a superstar mega powerhouse is in the nba... hes another risk. another mvp vote getter costing you trophies. another guy other players wanna team up with. another guy taking viewers/sponsorship/media away from your brand. another guy costing you scoring titles. another guy that COULD be against you in the finals.

nothing can be taken away if they never meet up.

thats just a necessary risk that you have to be conscious about and worry about. causing more stress/pressure to succeed and be the best of your era

jordan never had these problems


and yes.. its sad that i had to use a center as an example.. thats the closest thing to a rival jordan ever had

a guy he never faced who was 7 feet tall and would never even match up with himYou're the one talking about star wing players. I'm just asking you to name the ones Kobe faced in the playoffs. Simple.

You're the one who said Jordan beat a "washed up Magic". OK, so who did Kobe beat? "washed up Magic" >>> whoever Kobe beat in the playoffs.

[CavaliersFTW]

Man...he's been asked about comparing the two of them a thousand times. You can pick one where he says flip a coin...then you could pick the many others where he says Jordan is better. Have you read his autobiography?

Also, what the hell? You know OP is full of shit too can't you just let us enjoy ourselves?
Giving Kenneth more more ammo to keep his thread going is all part of the fun :D

[G0ATbe]

:applause: .

[sportjames23]

To a retard customer in the McDonald's drive thru, trying to appease you to get his Big Mac quicker? Congrats on the life accomplishment Kenny.


Damn, son. :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Giving Kenneth more more ammo to keep his thread going is all part of the fun :D
You son of a bitch

[DonDadda59]

So to summarize...

Steph Curry wins MVP and leads his team to a championship. LeBron James leads his team to a 5th straight finals berth. Russell Westbrook beats James Harden for the scoring title. Kobe Bryant shoots 37% on a lottery team.

Therefore, Kobe Bryant>Michael Jordan.

That look right, Kenny?

[guy]

Man...he's been asked about comparing the two of them a thousand times. You can pick one where he says flip a coin...then you could pick the many others where he says Jordan is better. Have you read his autobiography?

Also, what the hell? You know OP is full of shit too can't you just let us enjoy ourselves?

His words in his book where he has way more time to think and outline his views and better present in a respectable way holds way more weight then when he's caught off guard in an interview and has to make sure he doesn't come across as putting one guy down. I mean, it's pretty obvious who he thinks is better. The book pretty much laid it to rest.

[I<3NBA]

the other day, i convinced a Kobe fan that the earth is the center of the solar system.

shit was easy.

[Bankaii]

its funny because if steph curry never existed. kobe never has that achilles injury.

it came in a game against the warriors. and the lakers dont need kobe to push himself nearly as much vs a warriors team minus curry

that injury alone cost kobe a possible 6th title and the all time scoring record
What's even more funny if that the Lakers still won that game without Kobe.

[ShawkFactory]

His words in his book where he has way more time to think and outline his views and better present in a respectable way holds way more weight then when he's caught off guard in an interview and has to make sure he doesn't come across as putting one guy down. I mean, it's pretty obvious who he thinks is better. The book pretty much laid it to rest.
Yes, it is obvious.

He has nothing but respect and love for Kobe (as should everyone)...but in the book he speaks of MJ as God and Kobe like Moses. It's pretty clear who he thinks was greater.

You're right, obviously in an interview he isn't gonna say that Kobe doesn't have what it takes to match him (even tho he gets awfully close to that like...a lot). He's a good guy and likes to stay away from drama. I mean...he's the zen master.

But yea...Phil knows what's up. As do most.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Clyde drexler

young kobe

Gary payton

stockton

penny hardaway

john starks

reggie

[Angel Face]

Let's be real, you didn't convince anyone.

[RRR3]

Kenneth is pretty funny :lol

[AintNoSunshine]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg


Kobe's strongest aspect is definitely his scoring, but got dam, look at those scoring related comparisons.:oldlol:

[Gileraracer]

Kobe better than Lebron? Can be.
Kobe better than MJ? Don't make yourself look like a fool.

[Mr. Jabbar]

How many bran/jordan stans has kenneth salyed lately? i've lost count...

Savage.

[knicksman]

well jordan just demolished the one who carried kobe

[ralph_i_el]

sugar ray robinson is better
muhammad ali is better
roberto duran is better
joe louis is better
mike tyson is better
rocky marciano is better
george forman is better
joe frazier is better
evander holyfield is better
lennox lewis is better


and many others are better too


and mayweathers had a better career than allot of these guys


ducking fighters till theyre washed up trash isnt how you make a name for yourself

some of it isnt his fault. like the era he was in. but he did protect his record

how the **** do you know any of this?

[Dave3]

To a retard customer in the McDonald's drive thru, trying to appease you to get his Big Mac quicker? Congrats on the life accomplishment Kenny.
Underrated reply...though why is the customer retarded if he's only trying to get his good quicker? I think most of us will put up with whatever idiocy our food handlers are spewing so long as we get our food.

[Asukal]

OP, how do you convince other people when you can't even convince yourself? :yaohappy:

[Dragonyeuw]

Tmac- Great talent, career playoff loser. Never played Kobe in the playoffs. MJ dropped 30+ on him at 40. Had one legendary-level season in 2003, a few great ones in 2001, 2004 and 2005, and basically declined just as Kobe was hitting his peak( 2006 onwards). Had the talent but not the intangibles to be better than MJ, or Kobe for that matter.

Iverson- Great player, inefficient scorer. Defensive mismatch for Kobe in the 2001 finals, Kobe was primarily guarded by Snow and McKie. Oh, and he had peak Shaq on his side. Advantage: Overwhelmingly Kobe. Would have been nothing but a pesky, feisty notch on MJ's belt.

Vince- Not a better all-around player than Drexler, not much better than someone like Richmond if we're being honest. Glorified dunk specialist, great talent, good career, nothing more. Another pesky but incredibly beatable notch on MJ's belt in the best case scenario.

Pierce- MJ dropped 30+ on him when he was 40. Did nothing of significance till Garnett and Allen joined him. Not even remotely close to MJ as a player, nor present anything that MJ hasn't overcome in his career. Another pesky, but incredibly beatable....you get the idea.

Ray- Was 33 and 35 when Kobe played him in the playoffs, was pretty much in the role of a spot-up shooter in the Celtics offense at that point. Basically Reggie with a handle, another pesky, but.....see a pattern?

Ginobili- Second tier shooting guard in the pantheon of greats, never in a place of running his own team to judge him on that level. Was he even better than someone like Drazen Petrovic( great shooter/talent RIP) Are we really dropping his name in here like MJ isn't several tiers above him? FFS....

Lebron- Doesn't play the same position, occasionally matched up head to head. Never met in the playoffs. Two vastly inferior talents have won the last two FMVPs against him. Top ten level GOAT player but honestly, who would you bet on in a finals series between him and MJ? I know where my money's going.

Wade- An inferior version of MJ in most aspects. Never faced Kobe in the playoffs. Take Wade and add 2 inches of height, a better jumpshot, better overall athleticism, better IQ. And Wade matched against Kobe very well in his prime. So why wouldn't a better version of Wade do the same??

Rose- One great year, never played Kobe in the playoffs, and only played him a few times a year being in a different conference. Doesn't play same position. Hasn't been relevant since his MVP year 4 years ago, and many argue wasn't even the MVP that season. Really?!

Melo- Doesn't play same position, career playoff loser. 1 scoring title, and sweet **** all else. Modern Dominique. Really?

Durant- Doesn't play same position, beat Kobe in the playoffs when Kobe was past peak. 2014 version would have given MJ a good run, but Kobe didn't play that version due to injury. So why is he being counted as competition?

Westbrook- See Durant. Had his first truly MVP caliber season last year. Does it matter with Kobe missing most of the year, not to mention light years past his prime even if healthy?

Curry- Didn't become a truly relevant, top 10 level player till Kobe was basically irrelevant last 2 years. Never played Kobe in playoffs. Does anyone see this guy beating/outplaying MJ when it counts? Be honest.

Harden- See Curry.


So, the slightly shorter TLDR summary. Kobe either:

-never played them when it counted( Lebron, Wade, Vince, Tmac). And let's not act like Vince Carter was any better than Drexler

-was old/past prime when he did in the playoffs( Durant, Westbrook). Nor does 2012 Durant/Westbrook= 2014 Durant/2015 Westbrook who ascended to those levels when Kobe was injured. Not sure why they're being counted as competition for Kobe when he has barely played those versions of said players.

-was basically injured/not playing when they became stars( Harden, Curry). Beyond disingenuous to act like they were major competitors/obstacles for Kobe.

-played a past prime version when it counted( Allen). And the prime version was Reggie with handles. In other words, would have been another notch on MJ's belt.

- played a guy who outplayed him in a finals and couldn't prevent an old MJ from dropping numbers on him( Pierce)

- played nothing more a modern day version of a player that MJ faced( Melo). Dominique was the same level of scoring threat, and played on teams that didn't do much when it counted. In other words, the 80's version of Melo. Oh, and I'd take Nique over Melo.

- played a guy no better than Petrovic who asides from a few all-star seasons, was a role player next to Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, arguable GOAT coach and front office, and never had his own team to measure how he'd be in such a role (Ginobli)


None of this either adds of detracts from Jordan OR Kobe's greatness in their own eras, or their historical ranking. The same logic applied above, can be used to create a comparable list of perimeter talent that MJ would have faced, from positions 1-3, and someone can nitpick my list just as I've done above. Retarded thread that ultimately proves nothing in terms of Jordan and Kobe as players.

[ArbitraryWater]

Tmac- Great talent, career playoff loser. Never played Kobe in the playoffs. MJ dropped 30+ on him at 40.

Iverson- Great player, inefficient scorer. Defensive mismatch for Kobe in the 2001 finals, Kobe was primarily guarded by Snow and McKie. Oh, and he had peak Shaq on his side. Advantage: Overwhelmingly Kobe

Vince- Not a better all-around player than Drexler, not much better than someone like Richmond if we're being honest. Glorified dunk specialist, great talent, good career, nothing more

Pierce- MJ dropped 30+ on him when he was 40. Did nothing of significance till Garnett and Allen joined him. Not even remotely close to MJ as a player, nor present anything that MJ hasn't overcome in his career.

Ray- Was 33 and 35 when Kobe played him in the playoffs, was pretty much in the role of a spot-up shooter in the Celtics offense at that point. Basically Reggie with a handle, no problem for MJ then or in Ray's prime.

Ginobili- Second tier shooting guard in the pantheon of greats, never in a place of running his own team to judge him on that level. Was he even better than someone like Drazen Petrovic( great shooter/talent RIP) Are we really dropping his name in here like MJ isn't several tiers above him? FFS....

Lebron- Doesn't play the same position, occasionally matched up head to head. Never met in the playoffs. Two vastly inferior talents have won the last two FMVPs against him. Consider this, when wondering what happens if he faced the greatest playoff performer on a great Bulls squad.

Wade- An inferior version of MJ in most aspects. Never faced Kobe in the playoffs. Take Wade and add 2 inches of height, a better jumpshot, better overall athleticism, better IQ. And Wade matched against Kobe very well in his prime. So why wouldn't a better version of Wade do the same??

Rose- One great year, never played Kobe in the playoffs, and only played him a few times a year being in a different conference. Doesn't play same position. Really?!

Melo- Doesn't play same position, career playoff loser. Modern Dominique. Really?

Durant- Doesn't play same position, beat Kobe in the playoffs when Kobe was past peak

Westbrook- See Durant. Had his first truly MVP caliber season last year. Does it matter with Kobe missing most of the year, not to mention light years past his prime even if healthy?

Curry- Didn't become a truly relevant, top 10 level player till Kobe was basically irrelevant last 2 years. Never played Kobe in playoffs. Does anyone see this guy beating/outplaying MJ when it counts? Be honest.

Harden- See Curry.


So, the TLDR summary. Kobe either:

-never played them when it counted( Lebron, Wade, Vince, Tmac). And let's not act like Vince Carter was any better than Drexler

-was old/past prime when he did( Durant, Westbrook)

-was basically injured/not playing when they became stars( Harden, Curry)

-played a past prime version when it counted( Allen)

- played a guy who outplayed him in a finals and couldn't prevent an old MJ from dropping numbers on him( Pierce)

- played nothing more a modern day version of a player that MJ faced( Melo)

- played a guy no better than Petrovic who asides from a few all-star seasons, was a role player next to Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, arguable GOAT coach and front office, and never had his own team to measure how he'd be in such a role ( Ginobli)


None of this either adds of detracts from Jordan OR Kobe's greatness in their own eras, or their historical ranking. The same logic applied above, can be used to create a comparable list of perimeter talent that MJ would have faced, from positions 1-3, and someone can nitpick my list just as I've done above. Retarded thread that ultimately proves nothing in terms of Jordan and Kobe as players.

bam

[raprap]

Thanks OP:applause:

[ballinhun8]

Wing players are SG and SF right?


So why are you bring up PG?

If so then you'd have to add Payton, Hardaway (both of them), Stockton, Kidd, Kevin Johnson, etc.


Or where are guys like Mitch Richmond (HOF), Grant Hill, Mullin, Rice, Clyde who were wings during MJs time. I know I'm missing more just don't wanna look em up.

[riseagainst]

Kenneth is the GOAT ish poster.

:bowdown:

[KG215]

Tmac- Great talent, career playoff loser. Never played Kobe in the playoffs. MJ dropped 30+ on him at 40. Had one legendary-level season in 2003, a few great ones in 2001, 2004 and 2005, and basically declined just as Kobe was hitting his peak( 2006 onwards). Had the talent but not the intangibles to be better than MJ, or Kobe for that matter.

Iverson- Great player, inefficient scorer. Defensive mismatch for Kobe in the 2001 finals, Kobe was primarily guarded by Snow and McKie. Oh, and he had peak Shaq on his side. Advantage: Overwhelmingly Kobe. Would have been nothing but a pesky, feisty notch on MJ's belt.

Vince- Not a better all-around player than Drexler, not much better than someone like Richmond if we're being honest. Glorified dunk specialist, great talent, good career, nothing more. Another pesky but incredibly beatable notch on MJ's belt in the best case scenario.

Pierce- MJ dropped 30+ on him when he was 40. Did nothing of significance till Garnett and Allen joined him. Not even remotely close to MJ as a player, nor present anything that MJ hasn't overcome in his career. Another pesky, but incredibly beatable....you get the idea.

Ray- Was 33 and 35 when Kobe played him in the playoffs, was pretty much in the role of a spot-up shooter in the Celtics offense at that point. Basically Reggie with a handle, another pesky, but.....see a pattern?

Ginobili- Second tier shooting guard in the pantheon of greats, never in a place of running his own team to judge him on that level. Was he even better than someone like Drazen Petrovic( great shooter/talent RIP) Are we really dropping his name in here like MJ isn't several tiers above him? FFS....

Lebron- Doesn't play the same position, occasionally matched up head to head. Never met in the playoffs. Two vastly inferior talents have won the last two FMVPs against him. Top ten level GOAT player but honestly, who would you bet on in a finals series between him and MJ? I know where my money's going.

Wade- An inferior version of MJ in most aspects. Never faced Kobe in the playoffs. Take Wade and add 2 inches of height, a better jumpshot, better overall athleticism, better IQ. And Wade matched against Kobe very well in his prime. So why wouldn't a better version of Wade do the same??

Rose- One great year, never played Kobe in the playoffs, and only played him a few times a year being in a different conference. Doesn't play same position. Hasn't been relevant since his MVP year 4 years ago, and many argue wasn't even the MVP that season. Really?!

Melo- Doesn't play same position, career playoff loser. 1 scoring title, and sweet **** all else. Modern Dominique. Really?

Durant- Doesn't play same position, beat Kobe in the playoffs when Kobe was past peak. 2014 version would have given MJ a good run, but Kobe didn't play that version due to injury. So why is he being counted as competition?

Westbrook- See Durant. Had his first truly MVP caliber season last year. Does it matter with Kobe missing most of the year, not to mention light years past his prime even if healthy?

Curry- Didn't become a truly relevant, top 10 level player till Kobe was basically irrelevant last 2 years. Never played Kobe in playoffs. Does anyone see this guy beating/outplaying MJ when it counts? Be honest.

Harden- See Curry.


So, the slightly shorter TLDR summary. Kobe either:

-never played them when it counted( Lebron, Wade, Vince, Tmac). And let's not act like Vince Carter was any better than Drexler

-was old/past prime when he did in the playoffs( Durant, Westbrook). Nor does 2012 Durant/Westbrook= 2014 Durant/2015 Westbrook who ascended to those levels when Kobe was injured. Not sure why they're being counted as competition for Kobe when he has barely played those versions of said players.

-was basically injured/not playing when they became stars( Harden, Curry). Beyond disingenuous to act like they were major competitors/obstacles for Kobe.

-played a past prime version when it counted( Allen). And the prime version was Reggie with handles. In other words, would have been another notch on MJ's belt.

- played a guy who outplayed him in a finals and couldn't prevent an old MJ from dropping numbers on him( Pierce)

- played nothing more a modern day version of a player that MJ faced( Melo). Dominique was the same level of scoring threat, and played on teams that didn't do much when it counted. In other words, the 80's version of Melo. Oh, and I'd take Nique over Melo.

- played a guy no better than Petrovic who asides from a few all-star seasons, was a role player next to Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, arguable GOAT coach and front office, and never had his own team to measure how he'd be in such a role (Ginobli)


None of this either adds of detracts from Jordan OR Kobe's greatness in their own eras, or their historical ranking. The same logic applied above, can be used to create a comparable list of perimeter talent that MJ would have faced, from positions 1-3, and someone can nitpick my list just as I've done above. Retarded thread that ultimately proves nothing in terms of Jordan and Kobe as players.
Griff just got bodybagged.

Now let's all sit back, wait, and watch all of his backtracking, excuse making, goal-post moving, etc. if/when he replies to this this post.

[f0und]

griff probably threatened fisticuffs if he didnt agree.

[kennethgriffin]

Tmac- Great talent, career playoff loser. Never played Kobe in the playoffs. MJ dropped 30+ on him at 40. Had one legendary-level season in 2003, a few great ones in 2001, 2004 and 2005, and basically declined just as Kobe was hitting his peak( 2006 onwards). Had the talent but not the intangibles to be better than MJ, or Kobe for that matter.

Iverson- Great player, inefficient scorer. Defensive mismatch for Kobe in the 2001 finals, Kobe was primarily guarded by Snow and McKie. Oh, and he had peak Shaq on his side. Advantage: Overwhelmingly Kobe. Would have been nothing but a pesky, feisty notch on MJ's belt.

Vince- Not a better all-around player than Drexler, not much better than someone like Richmond if we're being honest. Glorified dunk specialist, great talent, good career, nothing more. Another pesky but incredibly beatable notch on MJ's belt in the best case scenario.

Pierce- MJ dropped 30+ on him when he was 40. Did nothing of significance till Garnett and Allen joined him. Not even remotely close to MJ as a player, nor present anything that MJ hasn't overcome in his career. Another pesky, but incredibly beatable....you get the idea.

Ray- Was 33 and 35 when Kobe played him in the playoffs, was pretty much in the role of a spot-up shooter in the Celtics offense at that point. Basically Reggie with a handle, another pesky, but.....see a pattern?

Ginobili- Second tier shooting guard in the pantheon of greats, never in a place of running his own team to judge him on that level. Was he even better than someone like Drazen Petrovic( great shooter/talent RIP) Are we really dropping his name in here like MJ isn't several tiers above him? FFS....

Lebron- Doesn't play the same position, occasionally matched up head to head. Never met in the playoffs. Two vastly inferior talents have won the last two FMVPs against him. Top ten level GOAT player but honestly, who would you bet on in a finals series between him and MJ? I know where my money's going.

Wade- An inferior version of MJ in most aspects. Never faced Kobe in the playoffs. Take Wade and add 2 inches of height, a better jumpshot, better overall athleticism, better IQ. And Wade matched against Kobe very well in his prime. So why wouldn't a better version of Wade do the same??

Rose- One great year, never played Kobe in the playoffs, and only played him a few times a year being in a different conference. Doesn't play same position. Hasn't been relevant since his MVP year 4 years ago, and many argue wasn't even the MVP that season. Really?!

Melo- Doesn't play same position, career playoff loser. 1 scoring title, and sweet **** all else. Modern Dominique. Really?

Durant- Doesn't play same position, beat Kobe in the playoffs when Kobe was past peak. 2014 version would have given MJ a good run, but Kobe didn't play that version due to injury. So why is he being counted as competition?

Westbrook- See Durant. Had his first truly MVP caliber season last year. Does it matter with Kobe missing most of the year, not to mention light years past his prime even if healthy?

Curry- Didn't become a truly relevant, top 10 level player till Kobe was basically irrelevant last 2 years. Never played Kobe in playoffs. Does anyone see this guy beating/outplaying MJ when it counts? Be honest.

Harden- See Curry.


So, the slightly shorter TLDR summary. Kobe either:

-never played them when it counted( Lebron, Wade, Vince, Tmac). And let's not act like Vince Carter was any better than Drexler

-was old/past prime when he did in the playoffs( Durant, Westbrook). Nor does 2012 Durant/Westbrook= 2014 Durant/2015 Westbrook who ascended to those levels when Kobe was injured. Not sure why they're being counted as competition for Kobe when he has barely played those versions of said players.

-was basically injured/not playing when they became stars( Harden, Curry). Beyond disingenuous to act like they were major competitors/obstacles for Kobe.

-played a past prime version when it counted( Allen). And the prime version was Reggie with handles. In other words, would have been another notch on MJ's belt.

- played a guy who outplayed him in a finals and couldn't prevent an old MJ from dropping numbers on him( Pierce)

- played nothing more a modern day version of a player that MJ faced( Melo). Dominique was the same level of scoring threat, and played on teams that didn't do much when it counted. In other words, the 80's version of Melo. Oh, and I'd take Nique over Melo.

- played a guy no better than Petrovic who asides from a few all-star seasons, was a role player next to Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, arguable GOAT coach and front office, and never had his own team to measure how he'd be in such a role (Ginobli)


None of this either adds of detracts from Jordan OR Kobe's greatness in their own eras, or their historical ranking. The same logic applied above, can be used to create a comparable list of perimeter talent that MJ would have faced, from positions 1-3, and someone can nitpick my list just as I've done above. Retarded thread that ultimately proves nothing in terms of Jordan and Kobe as players.



its more about each year/ prime matchups


like when we look back at the timeline kobe always had to share the spotlight and prove something to the world. that he was better than the other superstar wing the media was pushing to bring kobe down


2000 - vince, iverson, hill, stackhouse, miller
2001 - iverson, mcgrady, vince, pierce, stackhouse
2002 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2003 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2004 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, ray, billups
2005 - tmac, wade, lebron, iverson, vince, pierce, ray
2006 - wade, lebron, arenas, carmelo tmac, iverson, vince, pierce
2007 - lebron, wade, arenas, carmelo, tmac, vince, pierce
2008 - lebron, wade, tmac, carmelo, manu, pierce
2009 - lebron, wade, carmelo, roy, manu, granger, pierce
2010 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu, granger, pierce
2011 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu
2012 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook
2013 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook, harden, curry



its a constant battle for kobe to win scoring titles, league mvps, allstar mvps, get jersey sales, marketing, branding power, fan worship, media worship.

then he has to outscore these guys



meanwhile jordan back in the day was like "god i hope i dont have to match up with jeff hornacek"

[guy]

its more about each year/ prime matchups


like when we look back at the timeline kobe always had to share the spotlight and prove something to the world. that he was better than the other superstar wing the media was pushing to bring kobe down


2000 - vince, iverson, hill, stackhouse, miller
2001 - iverson, mcgrady, vince, pierce, stackhouse
2002 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2003 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2004 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, ray, billups
2005 - tmac, wade, lebron, iverson, vince, pierce, ray
2006 - wade, lebron, arenas, carmelo tmac, iverson, vince, pierce
2007 - lebron, wade, arenas, carmelo, tmac, vince, pierce
2008 - lebron, wade, tmac, carmelo, manu, pierce
2009 - lebron, wade, carmelo, roy, manu, granger, pierce
2010 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu, granger, pierce
2011 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu
2012 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook
2013 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook, harden, curry



its a constant battle for kobe to win scoring titles, league mvps, allstar mvps, get jersey sales, marketing, branding power, fan worship, media worship.

then he has to outscore these guys



meanwhile jordan back in the day was like "god i hope i dont have to match up with jeff hornacek"

Last time I checked, it wasn't just wing players that were eligible to win scoring titles, league MVPs, branding power, etc. So your whole point is really ****ing stupid.

[Dragonyeuw]

its more about each year/ prime matchups


like when we look back at the timeline kobe always had to share the spotlight and prove something to the world. that he was better than the other superstar wing the media was pushing to bring kobe down


2000 - vince, iverson, hill, stackhouse, miller
2001 - iverson, mcgrady, vince, pierce, stackhouse
2002 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2003 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, kidd
2004 - tmac, iverson, vince, pierce, ray, billups
2005 - tmac, wade, lebron, iverson, vince, pierce, ray
2006 - wade, lebron, arenas, carmelo tmac, iverson, vince, pierce
2007 - lebron, wade, arenas, carmelo, tmac, vince, pierce
2008 - lebron, wade, tmac, carmelo, manu, pierce
2009 - lebron, wade, carmelo, roy, manu, granger, pierce
2010 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu, granger, pierce
2011 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, manu
2012 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook
2013 - lebron, wade, carmelo, durant, westbrook, harden, curry







Doesn't really matter. Take 92 Jordan and insert him in any year above, and he's going to be the best player or 1a/1b with certain Kobe years or certain Lebron years. Having a few more competitors at the perimeter spot doesn't change that. Besides Lebron and Wade, no-one during Kobe's prime( lets say it ended in 2010) was major competition for him in terms of accolades, status, MVPs, and all these other arbitrary measuring sticks you're throwing into the mix. Vince lost the 'next MJ' label, for him it pretty much died around 2003 and Kobe had definitively ended any debate after 2001. Tmac was only competition for a few years, his body didn't last the decade to be a credible challenger to Kobe after 2005.

You also know full-well that if you matched peak MJ against most guys on that list, he's going to clearly come out on top. Even the ones that would give him a true challenge, like Kobe, prime Lebron, 2003 Tmac, peak Wade, or current Durant, I'd still take MJ even if the separation isn't huge. Or are you arguing that MJ simply wouldn't stand out as much? Because the argument of 'look who MJ would face if he played today' ignores that just as MJ would have to deal with those guys....they'd have to deal with him as well. MJ, especially in his championship prime, would present the greatest physical and mental challenge that ANY player on that list would ever face.

And again, Harden and Curry were just beginning their ascension in 2013, right when Kobe got injured. Why are they being included as if their careers directed impacted Kobe during his prime? Durant and Westbrook had like 2 years of superstar play that would have coincided with the tailend of Kobe's great years before he went down with injury. Those guys didn't majorly impact Kobe's career, or vice versa, as they weren't around for most of it. And Jerry Stackhouse? Billips? Granger? You're reaching.

[Dragonyeuw]

Last time I checked, it wasn't just wing players that were eligible to win scoring titles, league MVPs, branding power, etc. So your whole point is really ****ing stupid.

That too.

[Mr Feeny]

That too.don't know what happened to this guy. No creativity or humour in his trolling anymore. On his day, he's one of the most breathtaking trolls on the forum. Wish he'd go back to that if he were to decide to troll instead of this gibberish.

[kennethgriffin]

Last time I checked, it wasn't just wing players that were eligible to win scoring titles, league MVPs, branding power, etc. So your whole point is really ****ing stupid.


you need to check again


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


been this way 90% of the time since 1980

[guy]

you need to check again


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


been this way 90% of the time since 1980

No it hasn't. They are not the only ones eligible for those things.

Now I'm assuming you didn't mean literally, but either way, 13 out of the last 36 MVPs since 1980 are considered big men i.e. Kareem, Moses (2x), Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone (2x), Shaq, Duncan (2x), KG, Dirk. Bottom line is you're a moron if you think their MVP competition was that much different.

As far as scoring titles go. This isn't that hard to compare. Switch 85-98 Jordan and 00-13 Kobe, and take Jordan's scoring averages from 1985-1998 and apply it 2000-2013 and vice versa for Kobe (don't bother bringing up pace as the Bulls always played one of the slowest paces in the league). Jordan would still win 9 scoring titles, with his 91 season falling short to AI in 06. Kobe would only win 3 scoring titles, with his 2012 season edging out Karl Malone in 97. So we're talking about 1 scoring title difference :sleeping

[Hey Yo]

you're f*cking jacka**


2011 kobe = 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense ( contending team )
2012 kobe = 1st team all nba, 2nd team all defense ( contending team )
2013 kobe = 1st team all nba ( contending team )


and what about these other superstar wings colluding to rig finals appearances/rings


3 of those names i mentioned were on the winning team in 2013

2 of those names took kobe out of the 2012 playoffs

who stood in the way of kobe having any mvp chances? multiple superstar wings i mentioned
The above is when he started taking multiple trips to Germany for his doping treatments.

[kennethgriffin]

No it hasn't. They are not the only ones eligible for those things.

Now I'm assuming you didn't mean literally, but either way, 13 out of the last 36 MVPs since 1980 are considered big men i.e. Kareem, Moses (2x), Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone (2x), Shaq, Duncan (2x), KG, Dirk. Bottom line is you're a moron if you think their MVP competition was that much different.

As far as scoring titles go. This isn't that hard to compare. Switch 85-98 Jordan and 00-13 Kobe, and take Jordan's scoring averages from 1985-1998 and apply it 2000-2013 and vice versa for Kobe (don't bother bringing up pace as the Bulls always played one of the slowest paces in the league). Jordan would still win 9 scoring titles, with his 91 season falling short to AI in 06. Kobe would only win 3 scoring titles, with his 2012 season edging out Karl Malone in 97. So we're talking about 1 scoring title difference :sleeping


1980–81 Julius Erving* Forward United States Philadelphia 76ers (4)
1981–82 Moses Malone* (2) Center/Forward United States Houston Rockets (2)
1982–83 dagger Moses Malone* (3) Center/Forward United States Philadelphia 76ers (5)
1983–84 dagger Larry Bird* Forward United States Boston Celtics (8)
1984–85 Larry Bird* (2) Forward United States Boston Celtics (9)
1985–86 dagger Larry Bird* (3) Forward United States Boston Celtics (10)
1986–87 dagger Earvin "Magic" Johnson* Guard United States Los Angeles Lakers (4)
1987–88 Michael Jordan* Guard United States Chicago Bulls
1988–89 Earvin "Magic" Johnson* (2) Guard United States Los Angeles Lakers (5)
1989–90 Earvin "Magic" Johnson* (3) Guard United States Los Angeles Lakers (6)
1990–91 dagger Michael Jordan* (2) Guard United States Chicago Bulls (2)
1991–92 dagger Michael Jordan* (3) Guard United States Chicago Bulls (3)
1992–93 Charles Barkley* Forward United States Phoenix Suns
1993–94 dagger Hakeem Olajuwon* Center United States Houston Rockets (3)
1994–95 David Robinson* Center United States San Antonio Spurs
[B]1995–96 dagger Michael Jordan* (4) Guard United States Chicago Bulls (4)
1996–97 Karl Malone* Forward United States Utah Jazz
1997–98 dagger Michael Jordan* (5) Guard United States Chicago Bulls (5)
1998–99 Karl Malone* (2) Forward United States Utah Jazz (2)
1999–00 dagger Shaquille O'Neal Center United States Los Angeles Lakers (7)
2000–01 Allen Iverson Guard United States Philadelphia 76ers (6)
2001–02 Tim Duncan^ Forward/Center United States[c] San Antonio Spurs (2)
2002–03 dagger Tim Duncan^ (2) Forward/Center United States[c] San Antonio Spurs (3)
2003–04 Kevin Garnett^ Forward United States Minnesota Timberwolves
2004–05 Steve Nash Guard Canada[d] Phoenix Suns (2)
2005–06 Steve Nash (2) Guard Canada[d] Phoenix Suns (3)
2006–07 Dirk Nowitzki^ Forward Germany Dallas Mavericks
2007–08 Kobe Bryant^ Guard United States Los Angeles Lakers (8)
2008–09 LeBron James^ Forward United States Cleveland Cavaliers
2009–10 LeBron James^ (2) Forward United States Cleveland Cavaliers (2)
2010–11 Derrick Rose^ Guard United States Chicago Bulls (6)
2011–12 dagger LeBron James^ (3) Forward United States Miami Heat
2012–13 dagger LeBron James^ (4) Forward United States Miami Heat (2)
2013–14 Kevin Durant^ Forward United States Oklahoma City Thunder
2014–15 dagger Stephen Curry^ Guard United States Golden State Warriors (2)





1979–80 George Gervin* (3) 27 G/F San Antonio Spurs 78 1,024 32 505 2,585 33.1 [69][71]
1980–81 Adrian Dantley* 24 F/G Utah Jazz 80 909 2 632 2,452 30.7 [72][73]
1981–82 George Gervin* (4) 29 G/F San Antonio Spurs 79 993 10 555 2,551 32.3 [69][74]
1982–83 Alex English* 29 F Denver Nuggets 82 959 2 406 2,326 28.4 [75][76]
1983–84 Adrian Dantley* (2) 27 F/G Utah Jazz 79 802 1 813 2,418 30.6 [73][77]
1984–85 Bernard King*[k] 28 F New York Knicks 55 691 1 426 1,809 32.9 [79][80]
1985–86 Dominique Wilkins*[l] 26 F/G Atlanta Hawks 78 888 13 577 2,366 30.3 [82][83]
1986–87 Michael Jordan* 23 G Chicago Bulls 82 1,098 12 833 3,041 37.1 [84][85]
1987–88 dagger Michael Jordan* (2) 24 G Chicago Bulls 82 1,069 7 723 2,868 35.0 [85][86]
1988–89 Michael Jordan* (3) 25 G Chicago Bulls 81 966 27 674 2,633 32.5 [85][87]
1989–90 Michael Jordan* (4) 26 G Chicago Bulls 82 1,034 92 593 2,753 33.6 [85][88]
1990–91 dagger Michael Jordan* (5) 27 G Chicago Bulls 82 990 29 571 2,580 31.5 [85][89]
1991–92 dagger Michael Jordan* (6) 28 G Chicago Bulls 80 943 27 491 2,404 30.1 [85][90]
1992–93 Michael Jordan* (7) 29 G Chicago Bulls 78 992 81 476 2,541 32.6 [85][91]
1993–94 David Robinson*[m] 28 C San Antonio Spurs 80 840 10 693 2,383 29.8 [93][94]
1994–95 Shaquille O'Neal 22 C Orlando Magic 79 930 0 455 2,315 29.3 [95][96]
1995–96 dagger Michael Jordan* (8) 32 G Chicago Bulls 82 916 111 548 2,491 30.4 [85][97]
1996–97 Michael Jordan* (9) 33 G Chicago Bulls 82 920 111 480 2,431 29.6 [85][98]
1997–98 dagger [n] Michael Jordan* (10) 34 G Chicago Bulls 82 881 30 565 2,357 28.7 [85][100]
1998–99[o] Allen Iverson[p] 23 G Philadelphia 76ers 48 435 58 356 1,284 26.8 [103][104]
1999–00 dagger Shaquille O'Neal (2) 27 C Los Angeles Lakers 79 956 0 432 2,344 29.7 [96][105]
2000–01 dagger Allen Iverson (2)[q] 25 G Philadelphia 76ers 71 762 98 585 2,207 31.1 [104][107]
2001–02 Allen Iverson (3)[r] 26 G Philadelphia 76ers 60 665 78 475 1,883 31.4 [104][109]
2002–03 Tracy McGrady[s] 23 G/F Orlando Magic 75 829 173 576 2,407 32.1 [111][112]
2003–04 Tracy McGrady (2)[t] 24 G/F Orlando Magic 67 653 174 398 1,878 28.0 [112]
2004–05 Allen Iverson (4) 29 G Philadelphia 76ers 75 771 104 656 2,302 30.7 [104]
2005–06 Kobe Bryant^ 27 G Los Angeles Lakers 80 978 180 696 2,832 35.4 [114]
2006–07 Kobe Bryant^ (2) 28 G Los Angeles Lakers 77 813 137 667 2,430 31.6 [114]
2007–08 LeBron James^[u] 23 F Cleveland Cavaliers 75 794 113 549 2,250 30.0 [116]
2008–09 Dwyane Wade^ 27 G Miami Heat 79 854 88 590 2,386 30.2 [117]
2009–10 Kevin Durant^[v] 21 F Oklahoma City Thunder 82 794 128 756 2,472 30.1 [119]
2010–11 Kevin Durant^ (2) 22 F Oklahoma City Thunder 78 711 145 594 2,161 27.7 [119]
2011–12[w] Kevin Durant^ (3)[x] 23 F Oklahoma City Thunder 66 643 133 431 1,850 28.0 [119]
2012–13 Carmelo Anthony^[y] 28 F New York Knicks 67 669 157 425 1,920 28.7 [123]
2013–14 dagger Kevin Durant^ (4) 25 F Oklahoma City Thunder 81 849 192 703 2,593 32.0 [119]
2014–15 Russell Westbrook^ 26 G Oklahoma City Thunder 67 627 86 546 1,886 28.1 [124]




:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Kenneth, are you incapable of comparing who these guys faced or who they played with and when?

Beating T-Mac at 30 when he averaged 16/4/5 that season isn't more impressive than beating a 21/3/6 Dumars (1991), is it? :facepalm

Oh, and that washed up Magic put up an 18/7/11 postseason when Jordan beat him. He was basically a corpse. . :oldlol:

Kobe hasn't even met half these players in a series. GTFO.

[kennethgriffin]

Kenneth, are you incapable of comparing who these guys faced or who they played with and when?

Beating T-Mac at 30 when he averaged 16/4/5 that season isn't more impressive than beating a 21/3/6 Dumars (1991), is it? :facepalm

Oh, and that washed up Magic put up an 18/7/11 postseason when Jordan beat him. He was basically a corpse. . :oldlol:

Kobe hasn't even met half these players in a series. GTFO.


youre not keeping up with the conversation apparently


its not just about specific games doofus lol


- media
- marketing
- teaming up
- colluding
- mvp's
- a.s. mvp's
- scoring titles
- allstar votes
- pressure to succeed "best player title"



what happened when jordan finally had to compete with other big names in ASG voting? jordan failed to get enough love from the fans and had to beg for a starting spot


jordan has 10 scoring titles because he dominated an era with no competition. the big man 90's wasnt about to compete with a 30ppg average. different styles


but place iverson/tmac/kobe/durant in the 80's/90's and jordan might win 2-3 instead of 10


what if the media was on another players jock back when MJ was winning mvps

like a lebron james... and what if the media spited MJ

they can only love 1 guy at a time.





so its not just about kobe facing

jason kidd in 2000, 2002 and 2011
scottie pippen in 2000, 2001 and 2002
reggie miller in 2000
peja stojakovic in 2001
allen iverson in 2001 and 2008
latrel sprewell in 2003 and 2004
manu ginobili in 2004 and 2008
chauncey billups in 2004
paul pierce in 2008 and 2010
steve nash in 2006, 2007 and 2010
carmelo anthony in 2008, 2009 and 2012
deron williams in 2008, 2009 and 2010
ray allen in 2008 and 2010
ron artest in 2009
kevin durant in 2010 and 2012
russell westrbook in 2010 and 2012
chris paul in 2011



its about everything

[branslowski]

The above is when he started taking multiple trips to Germany for his doping treatments.

Lame responce to facts, OP slayin cats....Aside from the Floyd hate though...Floyd top 5 Boxer All-Time, num 2.

[guy]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin][SIZE="2"]
[B]1980

[sekachu]

jordan made the next biggest star wing ( reggie miller ) and all others like him ... average 18ppg, be nobodies commercially, have no real star power?

jordan silenced these guys? na


its possible to have multiple star wings in the nba. even when one of them is a top 5 player all time


I wonder how young a so called Jordan fan is? Anyway, your statment is basically nonesense. MJ faced a ton of good perimeter players

Magic Johson
Larry bird
Reggie miller
Clyde dexeler
Mitch Richmond
Gary payton
Penny hardaway
Tim hardaway
Iverson
Ray allen
Latrell Sprewell
John stark
Grant hill

[poido123]

I'm sure his arguments were excellent

http://brooklynink.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/IMG_2757.jpg


:lol

[bobopenguin]

kennethgriffin is going strong in this one.
:oldlol:

[clipps]

That Jordan Fan that OP's talking about must be a dipshit

[Dragonyeuw]

- media-
- marketing -
- teaming up
- colluding
- mvp's
- a.s. mvp's
- scoring titles
- allstar votes
- pressure to succeed "best player title"



what happened when jordan finally had to compete with other big names in ASG voting? jordan failed to get enough love from the fans and had to beg for a starting spot


jordan has 10 scoring titles because he dominated an era with no competition. the big man 90's wasnt about to compete with a 30ppg average. different styles


but place iverson/tmac/kobe/durant in the 80's/90's and jordan might win 2-3 instead of 10




I don't know what half the BS about media, marketing, allstar votes, colluding has to do with a discussion of who's better, and not even hurting my head trying to follow what that's supposed to mean.

MVP- MJ was competing with Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, Ewing. And at that point in time, the game wasn't tailored to perimeter play like now, which makes MJ's dominance all the more impressive than if he was playing in a perimeter focused era, like today.

Here's a quote:

“It’s more of a finesse game. It’s more small ball. Which, personally, I don’t really care much for,” Bryant said. Like so many from the old-school – even at 35, Bryant qualifies – he is befuddled at the soft stuff now that passes for physical play. “Makes me nauseous,” he said. “You can’t touch a guy….

“Nowadays, anybody can get out there and get to the basket – you can’t touch ‘em,” he said. “Back then, if you have guys putting their hands on you, you have to have the skills to be able to go both ways, change directions, post up and have that mid-range game, because you didn’t want to go all the way to the basket because you’d get knocked [down].”

link: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/21/kobe-bryant-doesnt-like-how-nba-has-become-more-finesse-game/

Source: Kobe Bryant. Now tell me why MJ, who combined some of the best aspects of Kobe( mid-range, footwork, post game), Lebron( otherworldly athleticism, finishing around the rim) and slashing( Wade) wouldn't dominate today in an era that your own hero acknowledges has made it easier for good perimeter talent to thrive.

No competition for scoring titles? You had Bird, Malone, Nique putting up 28-30. Barkley and Ewing had a season of 28, Clyde peaked at 27 as did Hakeem, Shaq was putting up 26-28 during MJ's second title run. Explain why this doesn't count as competition just because not everyone there is a perimeter guy? Kevin Durant has won two scoring titles averaging 28 ppg, as has Tmac.

Put Kobe, Iverson, Durant, Tmac in the 80s/90s? Well let's just take their best scoring years and compare them with MJ's, that would be the fairest thing to do. MJ put up scoring years with:

37.1
35.0
32.5
33.6
32.6
31.5

Kobe has two seasons in that range, 35.4 and 31.6, that led to scoring titles. Iverson has three seasons in that range 33.0, 31.4, 31.1, the latter two numbers that led to scoring titles, with one scoring title at a laughably low 26.8 in the lockout year. Durant has one season in that range, 32.0 and two seasons of 28.0 and 27.7 which are pretty low scoring title averages. Tmac has one season in that range, 32.1 and his other scoring title at 28.0 again kind of low.

So in essence, between 87 and 93 you basically needed to score between 32-37 points per game to be within striking distance to MJ depending on the season. Bear in mind, that MJ was also scoring that much in the 80s/early 90's while being consistently great defensively, something that none of those guys you list can claim. Kobe and defense rarely belonged in the same sentence the season he scored 35. In fact, from 87 onward MJ didn't average less than 30ppg for a full season until 97, at 29.6 which eclipses several of those guys scoring years. And that was 34 year old past prime MJ. MJ's 98 scoring title at 28.7, his lowest full season average since his rookie year, beats two of Durant's scoring titles ('11 and '12), one of Tmac's('04), and one of Iverson's( '99).

So quite the opposite of your point, MJ would prevent those guys from scoring titles more than they would prevent him. And no, before you go there because I'm sure you're itching to, hypothetical BS about what those guys would score if they played back then is just that, hypothetical BS.

[sportjames23]

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]I don't know what half the BS about media, marketing, allstar votes, colluding has to do with a discussion of who's better, and not even hurting my head trying to follow what that's supposed to mean.

MVP- MJ was competing with Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, Ewing. And at that point in time, the game wasn't tailored to perimeter play like now, which makes MJ's dominance all the more impressive than if he was playing in a perimeter focused era, like today.

Here's a quote:

[SIZE="4"][B][I]

[Cold soul]

Jordan is much better player than Kobe get over it...

[brownmamba00]

damn Ken is a straight up BAWS:applause:

[j3lademaster]

I'd rather have tMac on me with Andrew declerq protecting the rim than rauf on me with mutombo backing him. Mj wasn't on the court going one on one with just wing players, and even then there were some beast Allstar defenders like GP, Kidd at guard.