Anybody know Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs Walt Bellamy's career h2h stats?

[CavaliersFTW]

Bout to release a video of them h2h, would like to include their career h2h stats if anyone's got it.

[ShawkFactory]

We know you do...

I'm actually interested so...out with it

[CavaliersFTW]

We know you do...

I'm actually interested so...out with it
I don't, I'm usually a film guy not a numbers guy that's why I'm asking. I'm hoping someone like Laz or fplii has the numbers

[inclinerator]

kareem 35 ppg walt 19 ppg

[CavaliersFTW]

kareem 35 ppg walt 19 ppg
If that's the numbers I'm a bit surprised Bellamy scored unusually high against Kareem, thanks.

I'm also hoping to have rebounds and assists plus number of times they faced each other so if anyone knows those numbers that would be awesome

[ShawkFactory]

I don't, I'm usually a film guy not a numbers guy that's why I'm asking. I'm hoping someone like Laz or fplii has the numbers
How can you be a film guy of the 70s? There's so little of it...

[LAZERUSS]

kareem 35 ppg walt 19 ppg


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=abdulka01

In 24 career H2H's...

KAJ at 27.0 ppg and Bellamy at 17.8 ppg.

Now, if you need more detail, go to nbastats.net, and select the spreadsheet with their yearly breakdowns. You can also click on Kareem's career, and it will likely have most all of his stats vs Bellamy.

[dankok8]

24 Games (Regular Season)

Kareem: 27.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.0 apg on 56.0 %FG (23 games) and 70.2 %FT
Bellamy: 17.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg (21 games), 3.0 apg (21 games) on 49.8 %FG (17 games) and 62.2 %FT

All from nbastats.net. I indicated the number of games that we have the numbers for in case anything is missing.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=abdulka01

In 24 career H2H's...

KAJ at 27.0 ppg and Bellamy at 17.8 ppg.

Now, if you need more detail, go to nbastats.net, and select the spreadsheet with their yearly breakdowns. You can also click on Kareem's career, and it will likely have most all of his stats vs Bellamy.


24 H2H Games (Regular Season)

Kareem: 27.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.0 apg on 56.0 %FG (23 games) and 70.2 %FT
Bellamy: 17.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg (21 games), 3.0 apg (21 games) on 49.8 %FG (17 games) and 62.2 %FT

Holy shit this thread was a shot in the dark I wasn't sure anyone would actually have them thank you guys :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

First H2H on 10-18-69...

Kareem with 29 points, on 12-27, 5-8, with 12 rebs, and 6 asts.
Bellamy with 25 points on 9-?, 7-7, 6 rebs ? asts.

2nd H2H...

Kareem with 23 points, on 7-16, 9-13, 19 rebs, 2 asts
Bellamy with 9 points, on 4-7, 1-4, 4 rbs, 2 asts (18 minutes played probably due to 5 PFs.)

[LAZERUSS]

3rd H2H...

Kareem: 29 pts, on 10-25, and 9-11, with 22 rebs, and ? asts.
Bellamy: 2 pts, 1-?, 0-2, ? rebs, ? asts.

4th H2H...

Kareem: 22 pts on 11-22, 0-1, 9 rebs, 4 asts
Bellamy: 26 pts, 11-20, 4-6, 15 rebs, 2 asts.

[LAZERUSS]

5th H2H...

Kareem: 39 pts, 18-27, 3-4, 4 rebs, 5 asts.
Bellamy: 16 pts, 6-12, 4-7, 13 rebs, 5 asts.

6th H2H:

Kareem: 40 pts, 16-24, 8-12, 13 rebs, 3 asts
Bellamy: 12 pts, 6-15, 0-0, 12 rebs, 0 asts.

[LAZERUSS]

I'll continue tomorrow...

no need...Dankok8 beat me to it...

[LAZERUSS]

Not to hijack this thread, but for those that are interested, bb-reference now has all 100 of the Wilt-Bellamy H2H's (just mainly the scoring though)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=chambwi01

Again, you can go to nbastats.net and get much more info on their H2H's...


Oh, and same with Russell-Bellamy...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=russebi01

[dankok8]

CavaliersFTW I got a question...

You mention that you have three Kareem-Bellamy games. I know Oct 18, 1969 (Kareem debut) and Oct 17, 1970 (Maravich debut). What is the third game? Do you have all the games in their entirety?

[CavaliersFTW]

CavaliersFTW I got a question...

You mention that you have three Kareem-Bellamy games. I know Oct 18, 1969 (Kareem debut) and Oct 17, 1970 (Maravich debut). What is the third game? Do you have all the games in their entirety?
Amateur footage of an unknown date 1969-70 Bucks at Pistons game. Only a few clips, nothing big. But with the three sources I think it makes for a good potential h2h video and this is a great excuse for me to get some more Bellamy exposure out there, and yet another Jabbar/Alcindor video something my subscribers keep asking for.

The Kareem debut game I have in entirety, the Maravich debut game is 95% there, the first few minutes are missing and several points of the video have "technical difficulties" and are unwatchable but it's mostly complete. I also just ordered a (hopefully) higher quality version of the Suns vs Hawks Christmas game of 1970 so that will be another complete game of Bellamy and many other players that I'll break down in the future. I'm also trying to get my hands on a copy of a December game from 1967-68 season of the Knicks vs the Pistons but I've not yet heard back from the source who claims to have a copy.

[jongib369]

:roll:

Cavs at it again, wasting his time making mixes of betas who wouldn't even make the league today.

[jongib369]

All seriousness, looking forward to seeing more of Bellamy..A poster I respect a lot said his offensive game reminds him of a "Primitive Patrick Ewing". Do you agree with that assertion on any level coniderng what you've seen?

[CavaliersFTW]

All seriousness, looking forward to seeing more of Bellamy..A poster I respect a lot said his offensive game reminds him of a "Primitive Patrick Ewing". Do you agree with that assertion on any level coniderng what you've seen?
La Frescobaldi said that right?

Right now I know less about Ewing's offensive habits than I do about Bellamy's. All I know is Bellamy liked to create offense by driving and finishing from up to 20 feet out with either hand 1 or 2 dribbles, and catch and shoot or dribble and pull up from that same distance out plus he was a good passer so he creates a legitimate triple threat from the wing which is not the case for guys like Kareem and Wilt but was the case for many of the other centers of that era that had to cope with the Wilt's, Russell's, and Jabbar's such as Zelmo Beatty or Willis Reed. The only difference with Bellamy is he's also strong enough and skilled enough to play deep on the offensive end and can and did dunk or finish with force over the top of guys like Wilt, Russell, or Jabbar so he was a defensive assignment that had to be respected inside and out. I have no idea how his mentality was throughout his career, but his talent on the offensive end looks good and it looks like he was working hard defensively (more about position and using his weight to box/force out rather than shot blocking) in the 3 h2h games I've got against Jabbar.

[jongib369]

La Frescobaldi said that right?

Right now I know less about Ewing's offensive habits than I do about Bellamy's. All I know is Bellamy liked to create offense by driving and finishing from up to 20 feet out with either hand 1 or 2 dribbles, and catch and shoot or dribble and pull up from that same distance out plus he was a good passer so he creates a legitimate triple threat from the wing which is not the case for guys like Kareem and Wilt but was the case for many of the other centers of that era that had to cope with the Wilt's, Russell's, and Jabbar's such as Zelmo Beatty or Willis Reed. The only difference with Bellamy is he's also strong enough and skilled enough to play deep on the offensive end and can and did dunk or finish with force over the top of guys like Wilt, Russell, or Jabbar so he was a defensive assignment that had to be respected inside and out. I have no idea how his mentality was throughout his career, but his talent on the offensive end looks good and it looks like he was working hard defensively (more about position and using his weight to box/force out rather than shot blocking) in the 3 h2h games I've got against Jabbar.
https://youtu.be/uz_uIq0bbp8

Here's a bit of Ewing VS Oneal. It's highlights of a game, but a good example nevertheless

Thanks for giving your observations though, look forward to seeing it. Hopefully you can get your hands on that Knicks/Pistons game. Idk if this would jeopardize your channel, but have you ever thought about starting up a kickstarter? Finding/getting footage is a bit easier wilt deeper pockets.

[Psileas]

Not to hijack this thread, but for those that are interested, bb-reference now has all 100 of the Wilt-Bellamy H2H's (just mainly the scoring though)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=chambwi01

Again, you can go to nbastats.net and get much more info on their H2H's...


Oh, and same with Russell-Bellamy...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bellawa01&p2=russebi01

Russell with an insane team record of 61-10 vs Bellamy's teams. :eek:
Wilt isn't bad either, at 63-27 (55-21 in the 60's).

[LAZERUSS]

Russell with an insane team record of 61-10 vs Bellamy's teams. :eek:
Wilt isn't bad either, at 63-27 (55-21 in the 60's).

Interesting though, that Bellamy actually gave Russell's defense more problems than he did Wilt's. And, of course, Chamberlain just obliterated Bellamy on the offensive end.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://youtu.be/uz_uIq0bbp8

Here's a bit of Ewing VS Oneal. It's highlights of a game, but a good example nevertheless

Thanks for giving your observations though, look forward to seeing it. Hopefully you can get your hands on that Knicks/Pistons game. Idk if this would jeopardize your channel, but have you ever thought about starting up a kickstarter? Finding/getting footage is a bit easier wilt deeper pockets.
Just from watching that I can say this:

No jump hook to the middle option from Bellamy that I've seen in any NBA film so far. Bellamy and Ewing both look like they shoot face up from outside the same effectiveness and distance. Bellamy however mixes it up on some of those wing catches with more inclination to put the ball on the floor and drive inside to either pass or finish. Bellamy and Ewing can both hit a low post turnaround jumper as I've got a clip of Bellamy doing it against Unseld but Ewing does it several times vs O'Neal in that one game where as Bellamy doesn't even attempt one vs Jabbar - Ewings footwork on his turnound looks highly polished and I don't think Bellamy can create the same space Ewing does on his turnaround so that might be why Bellamy doesn't bother with one vs the towering Jabbar. Ewing takes a bigger step and fades further back. Bellamy, unlike Ewing in that footage, is in love with the pick and roll and pick and pop and he executes both very effectively. I'd say they both shoot face-up about on par but Ewing has an edge on Bellamy in low-post and mid-post isolation scoring where you just dump the ball in and expect something good to happen (that fadeaway and jump hook) but what Bellamy lacks there he seems to do a lot more damage on pick plays. They both pass well, and similarly.

*EDIT* Bellamy does attempt and make one fadeaway vs Jabbar I forgot about one in the unknown-date fan footage. He drop steps to the middle and hits it. But one example in 3 games is way less often than Ewing's 3 attempts vs Shaq in just 1 game.

[dankok8]

Interesting though, that Bellamy actually gave Russell's defense more problems than he did Wilt's. And, of course, Chamberlain just obliterated Bellamy on the offensive end.

Russell probably let Bellamy score in blowouts. For instance during 1961-1962 Boston went 9-1 against the Chicago Packers with a +13.5 point differential. There was tons of garbage time in there.

[CavaliersFTW]

Just found some more footage of Bellamy this time from his prime scoring years in Chicago and he did in fact have a jump hook to the middle. And I'm seeing more fadeaways from him. Damn. Bellamy has a remarkably well rounded scoring repertoire at this point there aren't a lot of post moves or finishes I haven't seen film of him doing.

[dankok8]

Just found some more footage of Bellamy this time from his prime scoring years in Chicago and he did in fact have a jump hook to the middle. And I'm seeing more fadeaways from him. Damn. Bellamy has a remarkably well rounded scoring repertoire at this point there aren't a lot of post moves or finishes I haven't seen film of him doing.

Wow you have Chicago Packers/Zephyrs footage? That's incredible!!

I can't wait for this mix.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Cavs, post a link to your channel.

[dankok8]

Anyways nbastats.net updated their archives and we have FG% for two more Bellamy games. These are the updated stats:


24 Head-to-Head Games (Regular Season)

Kareem: 27.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.0 apg on 56.0 %FG (23 games) and 70.2 %FT
Bellamy: 17.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg (21 games), 3.0 apg (21 games) on 50.7 %FG (19 games) and 62.2 %FT

[CavaliersFTW]

Cavs, post a link to your channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFfDF7oCw7sVL7PzEg57E4g

There you go.

Also, update, the video is rendering now. Should be uploaded in the next few hours.

[CavaliersFTW]

Anyways nbastats.net updated their archives and we have FG% for two more Bellamy games. These are the updated stats:


24 Head-to-Head Games (Regular Season)

Kareem: 27.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.0 apg on 56.0 %FG (23 games) and 70.2 %FT
Bellamy: 17.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg (21 games), 3.0 apg (21 games) on 50.7 %FG (19 games) and 62.2 %FT
Great stuff, thanks again.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8tpl04EDI :cheers:

[julizaver]

First H2H on 10-18-69...

Kareem with 29 points, on 12-27, 5-8, with 12 rebs, and 6 asts.
Bellamy with 25 points on 9-?, 7-7, 6 rebs ? asts.



I found an article (saved as pdf) on my PC about KAJ's debut, in short:

Kareem's (Lew at the time) cited as 7-1 5/8 inch million-dollar rookie

Kareem full stats: 48 minutes, 29 points (12-27), 12 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 blocked shots (plus 2 goaltendings) and 3 steals.

Bellamy played on foul trouble most of the game after incurring 4 early fouls and scored most of his 25 points after Bucks were in safe lead. (Bellamy reserve 6-11 Otto Moore got 5 points and 5 rebounds, when Bellamy on bench).

Kareem himself not satisfied with his performance, claiming he took some bad shots, knew he can do better.

"Alcindor most spectacular move of the day was nulified when he was caled for offensive foul while performing left-handed hook shot holding the ball on his fingertips and hanging in midair for what seemed seconds before realeasing the ball".

"ABC set up the telecast expressly to showcase Alcindor's talents. Its weekly NBA telecasts wil not begin until January".

[julizaver]

:cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8tpl04EDI :cheers:

[julizaver]

Interesting though, that Bellamy actually gave Russell's defense more problems than he did Wilt's. And, of course, Chamberlain just obliterated Bellamy on the offensive end.

Chamberlain gave Bellamy a nightmare welcome to the league blocking his first nine attempts in the first half, while scoring 51 points (Bellamy finished with 14).

Almost the same when Nate Thurmond first faced young KAJ - he gave the young superstar the worst beating possible. He held KAJ to 7 first half points on 1 from 10 from the field (Kareem missed his first 9 shots) and finished the game with 26 points and 19 rebounds. Kareem scored 21 points, most of them after the game was decided in Warriors favour. During the first half only Nate outscored Kareem 21 to 7, outshot him 8-11 vs 1-10, outrebounded him 13 to 5.

Here is a link to the article (page 8)
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=wZJMF1LD7PcC&dat=19691119&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

And another link with the full boxscore (page 22):
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=jvrRlaHg2sAC&dat=19691119&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

[julizaver]

Russell with an insane team record of 61-10 vs Bellamy's teams. :eek:
Wilt isn't bad either, at 63-27 (55-21 in the 60's).

Not suprised - Bellamy didn't get to the playoffs until 64-65 season, or only 1 time during his scoring prime - his first 5 years. Such a beta he was ...

As some of us know teams won the games/chips, not individuals.

[Psileas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8tpl04EDI :cheers:

Take a look at 7:05 or even the previous dunk by Kareem. Now you can see why Wilt and other strong guys of the era weren't thrilled with dunking by attacking the rim itself.

[dankok8]

Chamberlain gave Bellamy a nightmare welcome to the league blocking his first nine attempts in the first half, while scoring 51 points (Bellamy finished with 14).

Almost the same when Nate Thurmond first faced young KAJ - he gave the young superstar the worst beating possible. He held KAJ to 7 first half points on 1 from 10 from the field (Kareem missed his first 9 shots) and finished the game with 26 points and 19 rebounds. Kareem scored 21 points, most of them after the game was decided in Warriors favour. During the first half only Nate outscored Kareem 21 to 7, outshot him 8-11 vs 1-10, outrebounded him 13 to 5.

Here is a link to the article (page 8)
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=wZJMF1LD7PcC&dat=19691119&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

And another link with the full boxscore (page 22):
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=jvrRlaHg2sAC&dat=19691119&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Good post but the game you speak of here is not the first match-up between Thurmond and Alcindor. It's actually the third career match-up between them and the article you posted mentions their previous match-up (second H2H) two nights before.

They faced off three times during 1969-1970...

Oct 25 1969
Nov 16 1969
Nov 18 1969

[LAZERUSS]

Just an FYI...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/15/sports/basketball/15TALL.html


Some players prefer to be smaller than they actually are. Blake said Walt Bellamy, a Hall of Famer, asked to be listed at 6-11 even though he was 7 feet tall.

"I know he was 7 feet, but Walt thought it made him look extraordinarily tall," Blake said.

[CavaliersFTW]

CavaliersFTW I got a question...

You mention that you have three Kareem-Bellamy games. I know Oct 18, 1969 (Kareem debut) and Oct 17, 1970 (Maravich debut). What is the third game? Do you have all the games in their entirety?
10/18/1969 Pistons at Bucks - 100%
10/17/1970 Bucks at Hawks - 95% (first two minute missing, plus several plays become unwatchable due to "technical difficuty")
12/25/1970 Hawks at Suns - 100% I just ordered this game hopefully it will be higher quality than my previous copy which was basicaly 240p.

[julizaver]

Good post but the game you speak of here is not the first match-up between Thurmond and Alcindor. It's actually the third career match-up between them and the article you posted mentions their previous match-up (second H2H) two nights before.

They faced off three times during 1969-1970...

Oct 25 1969
Nov 16 1969
Nov 18 1969

Off, yes you are right of course.
Apologizes for misleading the ISH comunity. It is funny as I have data for all of their matchups and tracked all the games - even have it stored in Excel.

Anyway Thurmod guarded Kareem well in their first meeting holding him to 16 points (7 from 20) and 5 rebounds and Bucks lost the game.

[ClipperRevival]

He seems fairly athletic but not eye popping athletic so it's hard to gauge a guy strictly on film if they don't flash eye popping athleticism or rare fluidity like a KAJ or Wilt. For guys like that, you need to see them on a game by game basis to see their positives/negatives.

Also, you can see in the video why KAJ was an all time great. He was taller, longer, more fluid in his movements and had great touch and coordination. And that made him much more impactful on both ends.

[dankok8]

Off, yes you are right of course.
Apologizes for misleading the ISH comunity. It is funny as I have data for all of their matchups and tracked all the games - even have it stored in Excel.

Anyway Thurmod guarded Kareem well in their first meeting holding him to 16 points (7 from 20) and 5 rebounds and Bucks lost the game.

You are right although in that first encounter Nate only had 10 points on 4/11 shooting. He did have 17 rebounds though.

I'm missing shooting numbers for their first game of the 1973-1974 season. Would you happen to you have that by any chance?