The greatest defense of all time

[GIF REACTION]

The 04' Detroit Pistons! In that GOAT defensive era of 2001-2004 where Illegal defense was removed in 01 and handchecking was still allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYRBCl6x8cQ

Go to 2: 48
- We see both instances of handchecking being used, AND swarming team defense that would otherwise be illegal in pre 2001 basketball, according to the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

Pause it at 2:58
- See 3 defenders shadowing the ball handler? This would be illegal defense outright and clearly in the 90's.

[GIF REACTION]

Go to 3:35
- Notice the congestion in the lane.

[GIF REACTION]

Pause at 3:54
- Notice how Detroit has 3 players off their players, protecting the rim from the drive? While the main defender is allowed to physically impede the penetrator?

[Akrazotile]

Uhh... What does this have to do with kobe or lebron?

[GIF REACTION]

Uhh... What does this have to do with kobe or lebron?
Dude, did you get my text? Hit us back bro

[choppermagic]

Definitely in the running for best defence of all time. They were dam tough and had plenty of dedicated man-to-man defenders as well as a strict team concept.

[sdot_thadon]

So ugly it was beautiful.:applause:

[Akrazotile]

OP are those the guys - I'm just askin - are those the guys that Lebron scored 25 against in the fourth quarter of a playoff game when he was like 22 years old?

[DonDadda59]

Pause it at 2:58
- See 3 defenders shadowing the ball handler? This would be illegal defense outright and clearly in the 90's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA


Go to 3:35
- Notice the congestion in the lane.

You call that congestion in the lane? :lol

These (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8) are congested lanes.



Pause at 3:54
- Notice how Detroit has 3 players off their players, protecting the rim from the drive? While the main defender is allowed to physically impede the penetrator?

Full court zone trap transitions to half court strong side trapping zone, with a 7 footer camped out in the paint (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U) :biggums:



OP are those the guys - I'm just askin - are those the guys that Lebron scored 25 against in the fourth quarter of a playoff game when he was like 22 years old?

Technically yes, but in reality no. The Pistons under Larry Brown were a strictly man defensive team and took full advantage of their ability to handcheck guys. It was so effective at making Bean Bryant look like an overrated scrub that Mark Cuban lobbied the league to change the rules. They did (and it came back to bite Cuban in the ass in the form of D-Whistle in the '06 finals).

Flip Saunders took over the Pistons and started running zone packages. And magically, players started tearing their asses up. See D-Wade in the '06 ECF, Bron in the '07 ECF.

[20Four]

Uhh... What does this have to do with kobe or lebron?
Reported for being such a dumbass mother fvcker

[GIF REACTION]

Once again, Don using examples of illegal defense no-calls.

Shape up, son.

[juju151111]

Once again, Don using examples of illegal defense no-calls.

Shape up, son.
How about a whole series in 92 and 93 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ&app=desktop

[GIF REACTION]

Shut your monkey ass up, bitch.

Tell me how many times per season illegal defense was called compared to how many times 3 second violations are called.
Reported for racism

Considering illegal defense consisted of NOT only the current 3 seconds violation (This was part of the original Illegal defense guidelines, IT IS NOT A NEW RULE) but a literal 1000 word essay on what defenses cannot do.... We can safely assume that illegal defense was called infinitely more times than 3 in the key today.

[West-Side]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA



You call that congestion in the lane? :lol

These (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8) are congested lanes.




Full court zone trap transitions to half court strong side trapping zone, with a 7 footer camped out in the paint (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U) :biggums:




Technically yes, but in reality no. The Pistons under Larry Brown were a strictly man defensive team and took full advantage of their ability to handcheck guys. It was so effective at making Bean Bryant look like an overrated scrub that Mark Cuban lobbied the league to change the rules. They did (and it came back to bite Cuban in the ass in the form of D-Whistle in the '06 finals).

Flip Saunders took over the Pistons and started running zone packages. And magically, players started tearing their asses up. See D-Wade in the '06 ECF, Bron in the '07 ECF.

You want me to highlight times where Jordan looked like an "overrated" scrub too? And he's never faced a defense quite like the 04' Pistons. Arguably the best defensive team of all-time. :rolleyes:

.427 FG% Vs Jazz (1998) *NBA Finals - 105.4 DEF rating
.387 FG% Vs. Heat (1997) - 102.0 DEF rating
.415 FG% Vs. Sonics (1996) *NBA Finals - 102.7 DEF rating
.400 FG% Vs. Knicks (1993) - 99.7 DEF rating

2004 Detroit Pistons
95.4 DEF rating
Kobe shot .381

Should I also highlight the defensive ratings of teams that Kobe & Jordan faced in their NBA finals respectively?

It might enlighten you a little.

It's funny how much of an overrated scrub Jordan was against great/good defensive teams.

Even though 1998 Jazz were 17th in defensive ratings. :rolleyes:

[GIF REACTION]

This is all I need to prove it;


=================================
-----Illegal Defense Official NBA Guidelines-----
A. Technical Foul

Section I-Illegal Defenses

a. Illegal defenses which violate the rules and accepted guidelines set forth are not permitted in the NBA.

b. When the offensive team is in its backcourt with the ball, no illegal defense violation may occur.

(1) Penalties for Illegal Defenses.

On the first violation, the 24-second clock is reset to 24. On the second and succeeding violations, the clock is reset to 24 and one free throw (technical) is attempted. When a violation occurs during the last 24 seconds of any period (including overtime), regardless of the number of prior offenses, one free throw is awarded for the violation. (On all violations, the ball is awarded to the offended team out-of-bounds at the free throw line extended on either side of the court.)

EXCEPTION: If a field goal attempt is simultaneous with a whistle for an illegal violation, and that attempt is successful, the basket shall count and the violation is nullified.

(2) Guidelines for Defensive Coverage

a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds. The defensive player must re-establish a position with both feet out of the "Insidelane" to be considered as having legally cleared the restricted area.

b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

c. An offensive player without the ball may not be double-teamed from the weakside. Only the player with the ball may be double-teamed by a weakside defensive player. Weakside and strongside restrictions shall extend from the baseline to the midcourt line.

d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "middle defensive area." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.

e. When a weakside offensive player is above the free throw line extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" extended for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is below the free throw line extended, his defensive man must vacate the "inside lane" unless his man is positioned adjacent (posted up) to the threesecond lane extended. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When an offensive player on the strongside is below the free throw line extended "middle defensive area," his defender must take a position below the free throw line extended immediately or double-team the ball as soon as the ball crosses midcourt. There is no 2.9 time limit. If the offensive player relocates to a position above the free throw line extended, his defender may take a similar position no farther than one defensive area away within 2.9 seconds. In all of the situations above, a defensive player may always aggressively double-team the ball regardless of his previous position on the floor.

f. When an offensive player takes a position above the tip of the circle, with or without the ball, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) from him than the "upper defensive area."

g. A defensive player must follow his weakside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is no 2.9-second time limit on this play. A defensive player must execute one of these three options or he is guilty of an illegal defense immediately.

h. A defensive player must follow his strongside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is a 2.9-second time limit on this play which commences when the defensive player reaches the weakside and "opens up."

i. A double team is when two or more defenders aggressively pursue a player with the ball to a position close enough for a held ball to occur. Failure to comply with paragraphs (a) through (i) above will result in an Illegal Defense violation.

[Trollsmasher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA
what the fvck is that defense:roll:

they just stop paying any attention... ****ing pre '00s man

[DonDadda59]

2004 Detroit Pistons
95.4 DEF rating
Kobe shot .381

Should I also highlight the defensive ratings of teams that Kobe & Jordan faced in their NBA finals respectively?

It might enlighten you a little.



Why do you always chime in on things that don't concern you? Haven't you gotten the idea yet? You are way out of your league.

And defensive ratings are more of a measure of the offensive climate of the time. The early-mid 2000s was one of the most offensively depressed and talent deficient eras ever with teams like the one-man Sixers and the Nets making back to back to back finals.

Unless of course you want to admit that the 60s-70s were BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever...

'73-'74 Top D-Rating
1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7

True or False- The '04 Pistons are a garbage defensive squad compared to the top defensive squads of the mid 70s.

D-Rating says yes.

:yaohappy:

[tpols]

.427 FG% Vs Jazz (1998) *NBA Finals - 105.4 DEF rating
.387 FG% Vs. Heat (1997) - 102.0 DEF rating
.415 FG% Vs. Sonics (1996) *NBA Finals - 102.7 DEF rating
.400 FG% Vs. Knicks (1993) - 99.7 DEF rating


guy shot 42% against an 18th ranked defense in the finals

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1425/14251903/2563254-1361589542722.gif

[West-Side]

Why do you always chime in on things that don't concern you? Haven't you gotten the idea yet? You are way out of your league.

And defensive ratings are more of a measure of the offensive climate of the time. The early-mid 2000s was one of the most offensively depressed and talent deficient eras ever with teams like the one-man Sixers and the Nets making back to back to back finals.

Unless of course you want to admit that the 60s-70s were BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever...

'73-'74 Top D-Rating
1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7

True or False- The '04 Pistons are a garbage defensive squad compared to the top defensive squads of the mid 70s.

D-Rating says yes.

:yaohappy:

1) Don't flatter yourself.
2) Are you suggesting that any of those teams Jordan's struggled against were better defensively than the 2004 Pistons? :oldlol:
3) I am quite aware that offensive pace should be considered when comparing defensive ratings that's why your dumbass had to go back over 30 years to find defensive rating that was similar to the 2004 Detroit Pistons. :roll:
4) Detroit Pistons were a different animal in the playoffs in terms of defense. They had a 92.0 defensive rating in the playoffs. (higher than even teams from the 70's)

wink wink

[DonDadda59]

1) Don't flatter yourself.

F*ck you.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/wmjq79.jpg


2) Are you suggesting that any of those teams Jordan's struggled against were better defensively than the 2004 Pistons? :oldlol:

I'm just suggesting that using D-Rating from an era that saw some of the worst teams ever to reach the finals is comical. Iverson and who knows, followed Jason Kidd and his 1B Kenyon Martin making back to back finals... and you wonder why the advanced stats play out like they do.



3) I am quite aware that offensive pace should be considered when comparing defensive ratings that's why your dumbass had to go back over 30 years to find defensive rating that was similar to the 2004 Detroit Pistons. :roll:

Pace has literally nothing to do with it. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


4) Detroit Pistons were a different animal in the playoffs in terms of defense. They had a 92.0 defensive rating in the playoffs. (higher than even teams from the 70's)

And the Bill Russell Celtics had D-Ratings in the low-mid 80s. Shit eras that are talent deficient produce advanced stats like that.

[West-Side]

So in other words; every time there is a case that gives Kobe the nod you express your subjective opinion on why it's not the case. I can do the same shit all day.

Gotcha. :oldlol:
If you honestly don't think the 2004 Pistons were far and away better than any of those teams Jordan struggled against than you simply are full of shit.

[West-Side]

Defensive Rating = (Opponent's Points Allowed/ Opponent's Possessions) x 100

Pace equates to more offensive possession you shit for brains.
Just stop, I'm tired of destroying you.


Pace
Pace Factor (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); the formula is 48 * ((Tm Poss + Opp Poss) / (2 * (Tm MP / 5))). Pace factor is an estimate of the number of possessions per 48 minutes by a team. (Note: 40 minutes is used in the calculation for the WNBA.)



DRtg
Defensive Rating (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); for players and teams it is points allowed per 100 posessions. This rating was developed by Dean Oliver, author of Basketball on Paper. Please see the article Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings for more information.

Don't make me kill DonDadda online too, bitch. :pimp:

[rmt]

I'll make a plug for the Spurs' sustained excellence in defense:

Year Defense Rating/rank
1997-98 99.4/2
1998-99 95.0/1
1999-00 98.6/2
2000-01 98.0/1
2001-02 99.7/2
2002-03 99.7/3
2003-04 94.1/1
2004-05 98.8/1
2005-06 99.6/1
2006-07 99.9/2
2007-08 101.8/3
2008-09 104.3/5
2009-10 104.5/8
2010-11 105.6/11
2011-12 103.2/10
2012-13 101.6/3
2013-14 102.4/3
2014-15 102.0/2

Except for the dark days of Bonner, Blair and Duncan's poor 2011, Spurs have been consistently good on defense and therefore (pretty much) contenders. Note the higher Defensive Rating (for top ranked defensive teams) as the years went by and league-wide scoring increased. And Spurs up there with the OP's 2004 Pistons.

[West-Side]

I'll make a plug for the Spurs' sustained excellence in defense:

Year Defense Rating/rank
1997-98 99.4/2
1998-99 95.0/1
1999-00 98.6/2
2000-01 98.0/1
2001-02 99.7/2
2002-03 99.7/3
2003-04 94.1/1
2004-05 98.8/1
2005-06 99.6/1
2006-07 99.9/2
2007-08 101.8/3
2008-09 104.3/5
2009-10 104.5/8
2010-11 105.6/11
2011-12 103.2/10
2012-13 101.6/3
2013-14 102.4/3
2014-15 102.0/2

Except for the dark days of Bonner, Blair and Duncan's poor 2011, Spurs have been consistently good on defense and therefore (pretty much) contenders.

Greg P might just be the greatest coach in NBA history.

[PHILA]

1961-65 Celtics
1970 Knicks
1993 Knicks
2004 Pistons
2004 Spurs
2008 Celtics

[HurricaneKid]

The 04 Pistons were a great defense but the 04 Spurs allowed 1.3 points per 100 possessions FEWER.

So if you aren't the best D of the year you probably aren't the best D ever.

[Smoke117]

...the 2004 Pistons was the "greatest defensive of all time" because of Ben Wallace and Sheed Wallace. It's funny how you put 04 like Sheed was there the entire time...they were great before him, but they didn't become all time till he showed up. Everyone else was secondary when you had an all time peaking defensive player like Ben Wallace as your CENTER and a guy who has always been an (underrated) very good to great defensive player like Sheed at PF. The Pistons were just ridiculous in those 30 or games more or less Sheed was there in the regular season and the playoffs. It's always pissed me off how they would put Tayshaun Prince on the 2nd team all defensive over Sheed those years...you'd have to be a moron to think Prince meant more to the defense than Sheed.

[sekachu]

The 04' Detroit Pistons! In that GOAT defensive era of 2001-2004 where Illegal defense was removed in 01 and handchecking was still allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYRBCl6x8cQ

Go to 2: 48
- We see both instances of handchecking being used, AND swarming team defense that would otherwise be illegal in pre 2001 basketball, according to the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

Pause it at 2:58
- See 3 defenders shadowing the ball handler? This would be illegal defense outright and clearly in the 90's.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

Swarming defense illegal back then? You should watch the link above.

[sekachu]

what the fvck is that defense:roll:

they just stop paying any attention... ****ing pre '00s man



lol at you just trying to say something. It wasn't a bad defense at all. There were 3 guys put their eyes on MJ to prevent him penetrating to the lane. MJ made a smart move after he passed it to Grant. You failed

[rmt]

...the 2004 Celtics was the "greatest defensive of all time" because of Ben Wallace and Sheed Wallace. It's funny how you put 04 like Sheed was there the entire time...they were great before him, but they didn't become all time till he showed up. Everyone else was secondary when you had an all time peaking defensive player like Ben Wallace as your CENTER and a guy who has always been an (underrated) very good to great defensive player like Sheed at PF. The Pistons were just ridiculous in those 30 or games more or less Sheed was there in the regular season and the playoffs. It's always pissed me off how they would put Tayshaun Prince on the 2nd team all defensive over Sheed those years...you'd have to be a moron to think Prince meant more to the defense than Sheed.

And then they knock Duncan for shooting 42% vs Ben (at that time a 3-time DPOY), Rasheed and McDyess.

[Smoke117]

And then they knock Duncan for shooting 42% vs Ben (at that time a 3-time DPOY), Rasheed and McDyess.

Sheed is actually a much better one on one defensive player than Big Ben in the post...he was probably the best one on one post defensive player out all the PF's that were big in that era frankly. I don't remember the match ups from way back in 2005, but I would have thought he'd have a tougher time scoring on Sheed than Big Ben.

[rmt]

Sheed is actually a much better one on one defensive player than Big Ben in the post...he was probably the best one on one post defensive player out all the PF's that were big in that era frankly. I don't remember the match ups from way back in 2005, but I would have thought he'd have a tougher time scoring on Sheed than Big Ben.

Rasheed is the one who defended Duncan for the majority of the series. He has been a good Duncan defender going back to their college days.

[LAZERUSS]

The '71 thru '74 Milwaukee Bucks.

Go ahead and look them up.

[diamenz]

what the fvck is that defense:roll:

they just stop paying any attention... ****ing pre '00s man

what should they have done? fouled michael and gave him the and-1?