How much seprarated 2006-2008 Kobe and 2012-2014 LeBron? (peak play)

[catch24]

Kobe:
regular season ~32/6/5 on 57%TS
playoffs ~30/6/5 on 58%TS

LeBron:
regular season ~27/8/7 on 63%TS
playoffs ~28/9/6 on 60%TS


Forget the team achievements obviously (one guy played on a horrible team akin to LeBron's Cavs in the past).

Who do you guys think was the better player, and how much separates the two in-terms of impact/individual play?

[20Four]

Kobe:
regular season ~32/6/5 on 57%TS
playoffs ~30/6/5 on 58%TS

LeBron:
regular season ~27/8/7 on 63%TS
playoffs ~28/9/6 on 60%TS


Forget the team achievements obviously (one guy played on a horrible team akin to LeBron's Cavs in the past).

Who do you guys think was the better player, and how much separates the two in-terms of impact/individual play?
In b4 Jt123 comes in here

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron because of defense.

He was a runner up DPOY during that span of time

Lebron was a better offensive player because he finally brought it all together with his shooting and post play.

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron because of defense.

He was a runner up DPOY during that span of time

Lebron was a better offensive player because he finally brought it all together with his shooting and post play.

Kobe is touted for his Defense during this time, there's no way Lebron was a better man to man defender than Kobe, maybe help defender.

Also, lol at him being the better offensive player.

[catch24]

Lebron because of defense.

He was a runner up DPOY during that span of time

Lebron was a better offensive player because he finally brought it all together with his shooting and post play.

Good mention of his defense. LeBron was probably the better defender, but 2008 Kobe was a throwback year to the three peat version, circa 2000. He turned it up on that end, playing the all-around game somewhat similar to LeBron at his absolute best.

How much do you think separated the 2? Like if that version of Lebron is the BEST player today, where is Kobe at in your opinion?

[GIF REACTION]

Good mention of his defense. LeBron was probably the better defender, but 2008 Kobe was a throwback year to the three peat version, circa 2000. He turned it up on that end, playing the all-around game somewhat similar to LeBron at his absolute best.

How much do you think separated the 2? Like if that version of Lebron is the BEST player today, where is Kobe at in your opinion?
I think it would be like it was in 2013 with Lebron and Durant. Lebron just a little bit better

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe is top 3 all time.

Please stop comparing him to players not even in the top 10.

[catch24]

I think it would be like it was in 2013 with Lebron and Durant. Lebron just a little bit better

I think they were closer in 2014, but fair enough. :cheers:

[GIF REACTION]

Both have similar points per shot best seasons...

Lebron put up 17.5 shots for 27 points in 2014

Kobe put up 23 shots for 32 points in 2007

[STATUTORY]

Both have similar points per shot best seasons...

Lebron put up 17.5 shots for 27 points in 2014

Kobe put up 23 shots for 32 points in 2007

gotta adjust for FTs when calculating number of shots

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe is touted for his Defense during this time, there's no way Lebron was a better man to man defender than Kobe, maybe help defender.

Also, lol at him being the better offensive player.

:oldlol: Kobe was Elite Defensively in 2008 but 2006-2007 he wasn't playing great Defense.

[J Shuttlesworth]

The same thing that separates them throughout their careers. LeBron's athleticism/size. It just gave him a little more edge on rebounding, blocks, and a little more defensive versatility being able to cover quick PG's, and big sized PFs, occasional Cs. I think LeBron was a bit better on three pointers too and he was actually really exceptional as a catch and shoot player those years, especially 13. I actually think 14 is a more impressive statistical run for LeBron than 2012... correct me if I'm wrong.

Kobe's differences being better mid range shooting, better footwork, and I think he still might have had more points per possession on post ups. If someone has that data, I'd like to see it but I think Kobe edges him out slightly there too. Lots of that is to do with the superior footwork and mid range shooting, so it all connects.

[Trollsmasher]

The same thing that separates them throughout their careers. LeBron's athleticism/size. It just gave him a little more edge on rebounding, blocks, and a little more defensive versatility being able to cover quick PG's, and big sized PFs, occasional Cs. I think LeBron was a bit better on three pointers too and he was actually really exceptional as a catch and shoot player those years, especially 13. I actually think 14 is a more impressive statistical run for LeBron than 2012... correct me if I'm wrong.

Kobe's differences being better mid range shooting, better footwork, and I think he still might have had more points per possession on post ups. If someone has that data, I'd like to see it but I think Kobe edges him out slightly there too. Lots of that is to do with the superior footwork and mid range shooting, so it all connects.
while '14 may be better statistically, he was far better defensively in '12, especially after Bosh went down

[J Shuttlesworth]

while '14 may be better statistically, he was far better defensively in '12, especially after Bosh went down
Definitely true :cheers:

[Smoke117]

Kobe is touted for his Defense during this time, there's no way Lebron was a better man to man defender than Kobe, maybe help defender.

Also, lol at him being the better offensive player.

Kobe didn't play any defense in the 06 season...get real. Neither did Lebron in 14...but he was far seperior in 12 and 13 to Kobe in 07 and 08. Kobe has ONE elite defensive season and that was 2000 before he decided that scoring 30ppg was more important than playing great defense.

[warriorfan]

Lebron because of defense.

He was a runner up DPOY during that span of time

Lebron was a better offensive player because he finally brought it all together with his shooting and post play.

What? LeBron has never been a runner up DPOY caliber defensive player, which is a very vague definition to say the least. LeBron was at his best defensively in 2008-2011 and still he was floating outside top 10 defensive players in the league at that point.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe played some of his best shooty hoops from 01-03 also

[greatest-ever]

A lot seperates them, Lebron was better at basically everything but shooting.

[J Shuttlesworth]

What? LeBron has never been a runner up DPOY caliber defensive player, which is a very vague definition to say the least. LeBron was at his best defensively in 2008-2011 and still he was floating outside top 10 defensive players in the league at that point.
He was 2nd in voting 2009

http://i.imgur.com/T8vXr8E.png

2010 he was 4th. Don't feel like looking up the rest right now

[SouBeachTalents]

He was 2nd in voting 2009

http://i.imgur.com/T8vXr8E.png

2010 he was 4th. Don't feel like looking up the rest right now

2013 too I believe

[branslowski]

:oldlol: Kobe was Elite Defensively in 2008 but 2006-2007 he wasn't playing great Defense.

That's your opinion, My opinion (because I watched all his games) is that even though he was scoring alot he was still locking down defenders on ball...He was a straight beast in that year aswell....But since our opinions are opposite, lets go to the FACT:

06-07' Kobe All-Defendive First Team voted by NBA Coaches who knows the game more than online posters....But I'll let you morons with thee agendas try to act like he wasn't good defensively based on your biased views when in reality he was not only clearly great in my eyes but aswell as the eyes of NBA Coaches like Pop n Doc to say the least...

[Wade's Rings]

06-07' Kobe All-Defendive First Team voted by NBA Coaches who knows the game more than online posters....But I'll let you morons with thee agendas try to act like he wasn't good defensively based on your biased views when in reality he was not only clearly great in my eyes but aswell as the eyes of NBA Coaches like Pop n Doc to say the least...


The same Coaches that voted Kobe 1st Team Defense 09-11 :oldlol: Please explain to me how Kobe was better than Wade those years Defensively and justify their decision.

Phil said Kobe stopped playing Defense those years. Why don't you take the opinion of the guy who coached Kobe and is one of the GOAT Coaches?

[warriorfan]

He was 2nd in voting 2009

http://i.imgur.com/T8vXr8E.png

2010 he was 4th. Don't feel like looking up the rest right now

Fraudulent voting. LeBron wasn't a better defender than KG/Artest/Battier/Bogut/Kirilenko

[Bankaii]

Fraudulent voting. LeBron wasn't a better defender than KG/Artest/Battier/Bogut/Kirilenko
Every player you listed was injured for almost 20+ games. Bought played 36 games, KG 57 in 2009.
Just admit you have no idea what you're talking about about move on.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe finished 3rd in DPOY voting in 02..

behind only Ben Wallace and KG two of the GOAT defensive players...

[warriorfan]

Every player you listed was injured for almost 20+ games. Bought played 36 games, KG 57 in 2009.
Just admit you have no idea what you're talking about about move on.

Well 2009 was a down year when lots of good defensive players were injured. I was talking about in general of the timespan when LeBron was at his best defensively which certainly wasn't 2012 to 2014 which is what is being talked about in this thread. Bringing up shit from 2009 isn't really relevant when talking about 2012-2014 LeBron

[branslowski]

The same Coaches that voted Kobe 1st Team Defense 09-11 :oldlol: Please explain to me how Kobe was better than Wade those years Defensively and justify their decision.

Phil said Kobe stopped playing Defense those years. Why don't you take the opinion of the guy who coached Kobe and is one of the GOAT Coaches?

Take the opinion of a n!gga tryna sell a book claiming Kobe is uncoachable while getting caried by Kobe to 2 extra titles?:roll: :roll: :roll:

Nah, I take what I seen on the court, and Kobe's on ball defense was far greater than Wade's...Wade just had more athletic steals. I take my actual view of a player that I've watched in every game over yours, aswell as the views of actual NBA COACHES THROUGHOUT THE NBA, not just 1 butthurt coach tryna make a sell.

I think you upset because Kobe did this to your boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

Get over it.

[branslowski]

Kobe finished 3rd in DPOY voting in 02..

behind only Ben Wallace and KG two of the GOAT defensive players...

You know they gone ignore that.

[NZStreetBaller]

Im actually very impressed with ISH right now. Nobody mentioned team mates or ring count. We all mature around here all of a sudden lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Im actually very impressed with ISH right now. Nobody mentioned team mates or ring count. We all mature around here all of a sudden lol

rings are important dude, its what every player is playing for, what every team aspires to get and the reason why the most dominant regular season player of all time (Wilt Chamberlain) isn't the unanimous GOAT

getting it done in the playoffs matters

[tpols]

Kobe > on offense.. more dominant scorer, slightly worse passer but not prone to shooting collapse/lack of confidence (2013) or protecting efficiency numbers at expense of team (2014)

Lebron is slightly better on defense and rebounding but as a perimeter player its not much to look at (ie david west and hibbert being able to destroy heat frontline, with LeBron supposedly being able to defend/rebound with 4's and 5's)


Overall close but kobe just more skilled, adaptable and optimal against high end competition.

[Young X]

Kobe > on offense.. more dominant scorer, slightly worse passer but not prone to shooting collapse/lack of confidence (2013) or protecting efficiency numbers at expense of team (2014)

Lebron is slightly better on defense and rebounding but as a perimeter player its not much to look at (ie david west and hibbert being able to destroy heat frontline, with LeBron supposedly being able to defend/rebound with 4's and 5's)


Overall close but kobe just more skilled, adaptable and optimal against high end competition.How did Lebron protect efficiency numbers at the expense of his team?

[tpols]

How did Lebron protect efficiency numbers at the expense of his team?

by not going all out when his team needed him to.. everyone acts like 2014 finals was some massive one sided affair when heat were within a play or two (before cramps) of winning game 1 and won game 2.. the tone was set early on and that low volume, passive approach fed directly into spurs hands


for data purposes bron took 22 shots in wins that series and 17 shots in all losses... including 14 shots in swing game with series tied 1-1. That's pathetic.

[JT123]

In b4 Jt123 comes in here
:roll: I've got your ass on a leash. You're my puppet. Dance puppet dance! :pimp:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pretty damn close.

I would learn toward LeBron just because of those performances against Indiana, Boston (arguably the GOAT elimination game) and EPIC game 7 vs SA.

Bron doesn't get a lot of credit for the play he had in pressurized situations. Even I'm guilty of underrating him in that regard.

[Young X]

by not going all out when his team needed him to.. everyone acts like 2014 finals was some massive one sided affair when heat were within a play or two (before cramps) of winning game 1 and won game 2.. the tone was set early on and that low volume, passive approach fed directly into spurs hands


for data purposes bron took 22 shots in wins that series and 17 shots in all losses... including 14 shots in swing game with series tied 1-1. That's pathetic.It was one-sided. The series wasn't even close in the last 3 games, the Spurs completely murdered Miami's defense.

That series wasn't about Bron, it was about Miami's team defense as a whole. Lebron taking 4-5 more shots wouldn't have changed shit with the way the Spurs were shooting the ball.

[tpols]

It was one-sided. The series wasn't even close in the last 3 games, the Spurs completely murdered Miami's defense.

That series wasn't about Bron, it was about Miami's team defense as a whole. Lebron taking 4-5 more shots wouldn't have changed shit with the way the Spurs were shooting the ball.

Sure it could have.. kawhi went off in swing games with little to no response from Lebron. The series at first.. for 40% of the entirety was very close. The floodgates opened in game 3 when Leanord took over (going 10/13 for 29 points while bron only attempted 14 shots) and never were stopped there after. You're using pure hindsight in your analysis

[Young X]

Sure it could have.. kawhi went off in swing games with little to no response from Lebron. The series at first.. for 40% of the entirety was very close. The floodgates opened in game 3 when Leanord took over (going 10/13 for 29 points while bron only attempted 14 shots) and never were stopped there after. You're using pure hindsight in your analysisI'm just being realistic.

The ****ing Spurs shot 61.3 eFG% in the last 3 games...

I don't think any team has ever shot that well over 3 games in the history of the finals.

I just don't see how a couple more shot attempts by Bron makes that big of a difference. You don't beat a team like that by yourself, you need your teammates to contribute offensively and a strong team defense which Miami didn't have. They were clearly outmatched.

[tpols]

I'm just being realistic.

The ****ing Spurs shot 61.3 eFG% in the last 3 games...

I don't think any team has ever shot that well over 3 games in the history of the finals.

I just don't see how a couple more shot attempts by Bron makes that big of a difference. You don't beat a team like that by yourself, you need your teammates to contribute offensively and a strong team defense which Miami didn't have. They were clearly outmatched.


well.. I believe that that extreme effeiency was the result of great momentum being built on the account of no counter strike being leveled against them.. thats what i saw and what the contextual numbers bare out.

You can disagree I'm not saying you're wrong or anything

[Bankaii]

Well 2009 was a down year when lots of good defensive players were injured. I was talking about in general of the timespan when LeBron was at his best defensively which certainly wasn't 2012 to 2014 which is what is being talked about in this thread. Bringing up shit from 2009 isn't really relevant when talking about 2012-2014 LeBron
First you stated Lebron has never been DPOY runner up, and Shuttlesworth called you on that bullshit.
Then you responded to a pic of 09 DPOY voting and said the voting was fake because Lebron was better than players that didn't even play half the season. I called you out on that bullshit.
Again, just admit you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Bankaii]

Kobe > on offense.. more dominant scorer, slightly worse passer
No lol he wasn't. Attempting more shots doesn't equal better nor more dominant scorer.
And the passing discrepancy in passing is much more than slightly.

[GIF REACTION]

Warriorfan knows NOTHING about basketball. Kid is scrambling through this thread changing his argument every which way.

[knicksman]

If young kobe could easily destroy prime spurs while prime bran got destroyed by grandpa spurs. Then there is really no comparison between the 2. Theres a reason why bran is 2/6 while kobe 5/7

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Kobe at his peak just played EXACTLY LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN

LeBron at his peak plays like blake griffin with better handles and lamar odom level passing ability (very good) but still inconsistent jumper and unreliable in the 4th

Who gives af what the stats say

Stats are a quick summary of the game to try to explain what happened to people who didnt see the game

Stats are NOT the game

Not at all

Watch the game

If you think prime kob is worse than prime bron than u think prime bron is better than prime jordan

That simple

[KirbyPls]

Kobe at his peak just played EXACTLY LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN

LeBron at his peak plays like blake griffin with better handles and lamar odom level passing ability (very good) but still inconsistent jumper and unreliable in the 4th

Who gives af what the stats say

Stats are a quick summary of the game to try to explain what happened to people who didnt see the game

Stats are NOT the game

Not at all

Watch the game

If you think prime kob is worse than prime bron than u think prime bron is better than prime jordan

That simple

:facepalm

[MoBe1Kanobi]

:facepalm

What a compelling counter argument dumbass

[KirbyPls]

Kobe at his peak just played EXACTLY LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN

LeBron at his peak plays like blake griffin with better handles and lamar odom level passing ability (very good) but still inconsistent jumper and unreliable in the 4th

Who gives af what the stats say

Stats are a quick summary of the game to try to explain what happened to people who didnt see the game

Stats are NOT the game

Not at all

Watch the game

If you think prime kob is worse than prime bron than u think prime bron is better than prime jordan

That simple

State a fact in that rambling Kobe worship, and it might justify more than an emoji.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

State a fact in that rambling Kobe worship, and it might justify more than an emoji.

State anything

A string of consecutive words perhaps that create a counter claim to my statement thus proving that your brain is actually capable of forming an analysis and but until then.. the aforementioned title of "dumbass" still stands

:facepalm

[KirbyPls]

State anything

A string of consecutive words perhaps that create a counter claim to my statement thus proving that your brain is actually capable of forming an analysis and but until then.. the aforementioned title of "dumbass" still stands

:facepalm

Still waiting for something remotely objective my good man. Kobe is a beast, one of the 10 greatest players ever (and currently, one or two spots higher on the proverbial all-time list than Bron, based on career/longevity/team accolades/winning), so I do give Mamba his props.

However, I have watched both extensively, and in my opinion, Lebron from 2012-2014, is the second best player I have ever watched other than MJ. I don't think Kobe ever quite got there, although Kobe was incredible. Bron is my favorite player ever, so I am biased, but I believe at his best, he is marginally better than Kobe at his best, all things considered. I will spare you the stats, since you apparently don't value such criteria very highly, but on eye test alone, I thing Bron's ceiling, at his peak is higher then Kobe's peak (not by a huge amount but still better), and he reached a level of individual play that Kobe couldn't quite accomplish.

:cheers:

[Papaya Petee]

A lot.
Because LeBron was making finals year by year winning 2 titles in that span while Kobe was getting bounced in first rounds chucking away. (Except for 2008)

While playing better defense, being a better playmaker, better rebounder, and was much more efficient.

[Rocketswin2013]

well.. I believe that that extreme effeiency was the result of great momentum being built on the account of no counter strike being leveled against them.. thats what i saw and what the contextual numbers bare out.

You can disagree I'm not saying you're wrong or anything
Such a stupid thing to say.

[Wade's Rings]

Take the opinion of a n!gga tryna sell a book claiming Kobe is uncoachable while getting caried by Kobe to 2 extra titles?:roll: :roll: :roll:

:roll:


Nah, I take what I seen on the court

This is just pure Bias :oldlol:


and Kobe's on ball defense was far greater than Wade's...Wade just had more athletic steals. I take my actual view of a player that I've watched in every game over yours, aswell as the views of actual NBA COACHES THROUGHOUT THE NBA, not just 1 butthurt coach tryna make a sell.

Kobe's On-Ball Defense wasn't far greater than Wade's in any of those years and I'd even argue Wade's Man Defense was better. Wade was a terror defensively. He altered shots, strips, deflections. How did Wade finish 3rd in DPOY Voting yet Kobe was on 1st Team in '09? How was Wade 7th in DPOY Voting(Highest Among all Guards) in '10 but Kobe was on 1st Team? Please justify that


I think you upset because Kobe did this to your boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

Get over it.

You pulled up 1 Possession where Kobe shut down Wade? As if I'm "mad" at that :roll:

I think you're mad Wade did this to your boy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJTru6GhyyQ

[20Four]

:roll: I've got your ass on a leash. You're my puppet. Dance puppet dance! :pimp:
With that logic, kobe got you dick whipped since you're staying up all night looking on ANY news on kobe just to bash him.....LOL

[Thorn]

\
Kobe's On-Ball Defense wasn't far greater than Wade's in any of those years and I'd even argue Wade's Man Defense was better. Wade was a terror defensively. He altered shots, strips, deflections. How did Wade finish 3rd in DPOY Voting yet Kobe was on 1st Team in '09? How was Wade 7th in DPOY Voting(Highest Among all Guards) in '10 but Kobe was on 1st Team? Please justify that
2011 Wade was definitely better, but in 09/10 it's arguable. I would say Kobe had the edge in man D but Wade had the edge in help D.

Those DPOY placements don't really mean much considering that neither Kobe nor Wade were seriously considered. I mean in 2009, Dwight had 105/120 first place votes, Lebron had 4, and Wade had 3. Kobe had 2. In 2010, Dwight had 110/120 first place votes. Wade tied for 10th with 13 points and Kobe was just under him with 9 points (12th). The placings for DPOY are pretty irrelevant since there's barely any separation. Dwight ran away with the award both years anyway. It's the same thing in 2002. Kobe was technically 3rd behind Ben Wallace and KG, but Wallace had 116/120 first place votes.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wade fans stop bitching about Kobe "taking Wade's spot on the all defensive teams"

there are 2 spots for guards.. Kobe isn't taking both..

Raja Bell, Kirk Hinrich, Chauncey Billups & J Kidd were making all defensive teams over Wade in his prime..

so bitch about that..

[TheMarkMadsen]

A lot.
Because LeBron was making finals year by year winning 2 titles in that span while Kobe was getting bounced in first rounds chucking away. (Except for 2008)

While playing better defense, being a better playmaker, better rebounder, and was much more efficient.

because bran playing with his super teams while Kobe played with Kwame and Smush doesn't make a difference in their playoff results :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kobe averaged 28ppg on 50% in the 06 playoffs, including 34ppg on 57% the last 3 games.. in 07 he put up 33ppg on 46%..

[ArbitraryWater]

Different tier.. 2006 Bron is comparable to 2006 Kobe, 2012-2014 is another discussion.

[catch24]

Different tier.. 2006 Bron is comparable to 2006 Kobe, 2012-2014 is another discussion.

A different tier all-together? lol. If we're speaking about team achievements, sure, but actual play and impact on the court?

Like I asked another poster, if LeBron from 2012-2014 were THE best player today, where is 2006-2008 Kobe?

[Papaya Petee]

because bran playing with his super teams while Kobe played with Kwame and Smush doesn't make a difference in their playoff results :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kobe averaged 28ppg on 50% in the 06 playoffs, including 34ppg on 57% the last 3 games.. in 07 he put up 33ppg on 46%..
Vs a defensive Jaggernaut in Phoenix :facepalm

[warriorfan]

Kobe is better and the stans are getting shook

[Trollsmasher]

if peak Lebron is 100, then peak Kobe is 88

[JT123]

Kobe is better and the stans are getting shook
meltdown

[Heavincent]

Different tier.. 2006 Bron is comparable to 2006 Kobe, 2012-2014 is another discussion.

Bran stans are so silly.

[ShawkFactory]

Not a lot separates them impact and dominance-wise. Lebron was probably slightly better overall.

[guy]

well.. I believe that that extreme effeiency was the result of great momentum being built on the account of no counter strike being leveled against them.. thats what i saw and what the contextual numbers bare out.

You can disagree I'm not saying you're wrong or anything

Completely agree with this. His passiveness resulted in him not being able to contribute as much, and made it harder for his teammates who couldn't capitalize on easier looks that would've opened up from his aggressiveness and any shift in momentum. NBA is a momentum game, and Lebron didn't do much in the key moments of the game to develop momentum for his team and kill momentum of the Spurs.

Its funny, had Lebron actually taken the same approach in the 2014 Finals that he took in the 2015 Finals, the Heat probably win or the series goes at least 7. He took 18 FGA per game in 2014 vs 33 FGA per game in 2015. Literally almost twice as much in 2015. He was obviously much less efficient, but despite having a much worse supporting cast and going up against pretty much the same level of competition (a very similarly potent offense as well), they were a lot closer in that series. And I don't just mean they won 1 less game, but every game was relatively close going into the 4th quarter and/or beyond, while most games in the 2014 Finals were done by halftime. And I don't mean he should've taken 33 FGA per game. But something like 25-28 FGA per game would've made a much bigger difference. His individual efficiency might've down, but the team's efficiency overall would've been better.

[red1]

That version of kobe would be the best scorer in the league now alongside
kd. I would take prime bron by a hair though. Heat bronze was too good.

[Young X]

Its funny, had Lebron actually taken the same approach in the 2014 Finals that he took in the 2015 Finals, the Heat probably win or the series goes at least 7. He took 18 FGA per game in 2014 vs 33 FGA per game in 2015. Literally almost twice as much in 2015. He was obviously much less efficient, but despite having a much worse supporting cast and going up against pretty much the same level of competition (a very similarly potent offense as well), they were a lot closer in that series. And I don't just mean they won 1 less game, but every game was relatively close going into the 4th quarter and/or beyond, while most games in the 2014 Finals were done by halftime. And I don't mean he should've taken 33 FGA per game. But something like 25-28 FGA per game would've made a much bigger difference. His individual efficiency might've down, but the team's efficiency overall would've been better.The '15 finals was closer because Cleveland defended GS far better than Miami defended SA which goes back to my point about team defense. If you remember, the Cavs shut down the Warriors in games 2 and 3 which is something Miami couldn't do in 2014.

That's the only reason why the series wasn't a sweep. The Cavs were absolutely horrible offensively all series because they had nobody scoring efficiently.

If Lebron scored like he did against the Warriors in the 2014 finals they would've gotten killed even worse.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Vs a defensive Jaggernaut in Phoenix :facepalm

Why are you moving the goal post..

You claimed he chucked in those series, said nothing about his competition.. Now that you see he didnt chuck you try to down play it by moving the goal post..

Salty bitch :lol :lol phoenix were title contenders during that stretch.

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe is top 3 all time.

Please stop comparing him to players not even in the top 10.
:applause: :bowdown: :rockon: :cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe was a poor leader, and disinterested defensive player in 2006 and 2007. Peak of his powers he was an unstoppable scorer who due to over aggression and hot shooting from deep made him the most explosive scorer on hot nights I've ever seen. His all around floor game was meh. And his playoff performances still left much to be desired.

2008 he was an excellent trusting leader, who let the game come to him. Never forced the issue. Was a re dedicated defender and showed his value carrying a weak talented team even prior to Gasol to a top three record by being both a great scorer and distributer.

At the time I would've said 2006 was his best year. Mainly because of the firework performances. But in totality, playoffs included, as a defender ... and playing the whole game. 2008 was Kobe's best season in that time frame.

Just ran into a juggernaut in the Finals with significantly less talent, and a collective team mentality or lack of toughness that Boston was built to take advantage of.

LeBron was a poor leader in 2011, but given his floor game, his 2 year stretch as the best perimeter defender in the game ... and then in 2012 improving his mid range and back to basket game. Beyond some stinkers in the 2013 playoffs. Albeit with a record setting win streak in the regular season. His personal high points coming vs Indiana, Boston and San Antonio in huge elimination games? I think LeBron takes the advantage.

[20Four]

meltdown
like you kid

[Magic 32]

His personal high points coming vs Indiana, Boston and San Antonio in huge elimination games? I think LeBron takes the advantage.

So these are great teams compared to Kobe's competition?

The Pacers would be a first round team in the west. And Lebron's Game 7 in 2013 was hardly a "high point". Pretty good is more like it.

And then we have victories against a Celtics team with one foot in the grave and the messy and completely underwhelming Spurs series (god knows what Kobe could have done against that team at 28). We know what he did in 2008.

All of these series should have ended before game 7 if Lebron was as dominant as his fans like to tell us.

[tpols]

So these are great teams compared to Kobe's competition?

The Pacers would be a first round team in the west. And Lebron's Game 7 in 2013 was hardly a "high point". Pretty good is more like it.

And then we have victories against a Celtics team with one foot in the grave and the messy and completely underwhelming Spurs series (god knows what Kobe could have done against that team at 28). We know what he did in 2008.

All of these series should have ended before game 7 if Lebron was as dominant as his fans like to tell us.

It's all silly because if not for two shots completely out of both of their control (Tim Thomas and Ray Allen 3's) it would be Kobe being the great leader leading an upset over the 2 seed and Lebron with a horrible choke and yet another Finals loss... but two role players hitting one shot each flips the narrative completely upside down.

[branslowski]

Not a lot separates them impact and dominance-wise. Lebron was probably slightly better overall.

So what does impact bring? Winning games right? 2/6 Finals, dat impact.

[ShawkFactory]

So what does impact bring? Winning games right? 2/6 Finals, dat impact.
The years in question were 2012-2014 vs 2006-2008. Kobe was 0/1, Lebron was 2/3. So yea, go fvck yourself you weird troll.

[branslowski]

The years in question were 2012-2014 vs 2006-2008. Kobe was 0/1, Lebron was 2/3. So yea, go fvck yourself you weird troll.

True your're right, I was talking about whole career for no reason. I'll keep it at the whole LeBron running to Wades team years.:cheers:

I do hope Bron gets 5 rings one day, time for that "Impact" to show up with wins and not a empty stat box.

[ShawkFactory]

True your're right, I was talking about whole career for no reason. I'll keep it at the whole LeBron running to Wades team years.:cheers:

I do hope Bron gets 5 rings one day, time for that "Impact" to show up with wins and not a empty stat box.
Get the fvck outta here

[DonDadda59]

As a neutral and therefore reliable observer... if you take away team success, Bron takes this one.

The only advantage Bean has here is scoring, but that was inflated due to the league adjusting to the new perimeter rule changes. Yeah Bean put up 35 PPG which is very impressive, but people forget that a 30 year old Iverson was right there with him with 33 PPG. Hell, even a third year Bron had a career high 30 PPG.

During those years Kobe's defense was seriously lacking. He did focus more on that end during the Lakers' finals run in '08 though. But '06-'07, he was solely focused on getting points, nothing else. Bron's best all around defense came during that '12-'14 stretch. He wasn't getting those highlight reel chase-down blocks like he did during his first Cavs run, but his fundamentals and focus in both man to man and help D had improved pretty dramatically.

[riseagainst]

Kobe at his peak just played EXACTLY LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN

LeBron at his peak plays like blake griffin with better handles and lamar odom level passing ability (very good) but still inconsistent jumper and unreliable in the 4th

Who gives af what the stats say

Stats are a quick summary of the game to try to explain what happened to people who didnt see the game

Stats are NOT the game

Not at all

Watch the game

If you think prime kob is worse than prime bron than u think prime bron is better than prime jordan

That simple

:lol
:roll:

[aj1987]

by not going all out when his team needed him to.. everyone acts like 2014 finals was some massive one sided affair when heat were within a play or two (before cramps) of winning game 1 and won game 2.. the tone was set early on and that low volume, passive approach fed directly into spurs hands


for data purposes bron took 22 shots in wins that series and 17 shots in all losses... including 14 shots in swing game with series tied 1-1. That's pathetic.
Horrible post. Go and watch the series again. Wade, Rio, Bosh, Cole, etc. deserve more blame than anyone on the Heat for the Finals loss. I've never seen Wade that uninterested in his entire career. Dude was basically a traffic cone on defense. Probably the worst series of his career. LeBron taking 4-5 extra shots a game wouldn't have helped with shit. The Spurs' offense STEAMROLLED the Heat. Needed more defense. Not offense.

[West-Side]

As a neutral and therefore reliable observer... if you take away team success, Bron takes this one.

The only advantage Bean has here is scoring, but that was inflated due to the league adjusting to the new perimeter rule changes. Yeah Bean put up 35 PPG which is very impressive, but people forget that a 30 year old Iverson was right there with him with 33 PPG. Hell, even a third year Bron had a career high 30 PPG.

During those years Kobe's defense was seriously lacking. He did focus more on that end during the Lakers' finals run in '08 though. But '06-'07, he was solely focused on getting points, nothing else. Bron's best all around defense came during that '12-'14 stretch. He wasn't getting those highlight reel chase-down blocks like he did during his first Cavs run, but his fundamentals and focus in both man to man and help D had improved pretty dramatically.

:rolleyes:

[branslowski]

Get the fvck outta here

is what the Larry O'Brien trophy told Bron this year

[branslowski]

As a neutral and therefore reliable observer... if you take away team success, Bron takes this one.

The only advantage Bean has here is scoring, but that was inflated due to the league adjusting to the new perimeter rule changes. Yeah Bean put up 35 PPG which is very impressive, but people forget that a 30 year old Iverson was right there with him with 33 PPG. Hell, even a third year Bron had a career high 30 PPG.

During those years Kobe's defense was seriously lacking. He did focus more on that end during the Lakers' finals run in '08 though. But '06-'07, he was solely focused on getting points, nothing else. Bron's best all around defense came during that '12-'14 stretch. He wasn't getting those highlight reel chase-down blocks like he did during his first Cavs run, but his fundamentals and focus in both man to man and help D had improved pretty dramatically.

Stop it....I was watching those game seeing Kobe clamp down defenders on one end and then still score on their faces on the other....And in that same year ofcource he was voted All-Defensive First team by ACTUAL NBA COACHES, not message board haters...But you ca carry on ya Bullshit.

[Magic 32]

As a neutral and therefore reliable observer... if you take away team success, Bron takes this one.

The only advantage Bean has here is scoring, but that was inflated due to the league adjusting to the new perimeter rule changes. Yeah Bean put up 35 PPG which is very impressive, but people forget that a 30 year old Iverson was right there with him with 33 PPG. Hell, even a third year Bron had a career high 30 PPG.



35.4

2.4 more is a fair amount.




During those years Kobe's defense was seriously lacking. He did focus more on that end during the Lakers' finals run in '08 though. But '06-'07, he was solely focused on getting points, nothing else.

Gross oversimplification.

It's hard to look good on defense (or have energy to play it consistenly) when you are surrounded by Smush, Kwame and Luke.

[Magic 32]

The years in question were 2012-2014 vs 2006-2008. Kobe was 0/1, Lebron was 2/3. So yea, go fvck yourself you weird troll.

Give Wade and Bosh to Kobe from age 26 to 28.....in the east.

He would be 4/3.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If peak Bron is a 95-97 out of 100 (peaks like MJ/KAJ/Shaq being 99 or 100), peak Kobe is like a 92-93.

[Kblaze8855]

Its close enough that id say anyone acting like its a blowout either way should have their opinions disregarded on either player in the future.

Total "Depends on what you want" situation.

There are teams that Kobe might help more. There are teams Lebron would.

I dont think peak Kobe loses the 2011 finals in Lebrons place. I cant see him just assuming it would all work out if he keeps making the right play. Kobe would have eventually tried to take over. And he was likely too great to stop from doing it on a team with Wade and Bosh that only needed a key basket here and there. That series wasnt far off from being Miamis. They won 2 of the first 3 and Wade missed a shot that would have given them the other game. I think Kobe could have taken it the other way.


But....I also think some of those Laker teams could improve with peak Lebron. Not enough to really matter I guess but Lebron hit a point where guys just seem to fall in line and play hard for him even while being somewhat marginalized. Thats a tough one. To make someone a bystander in the offense but still improve chemistry? Once Bron hit his peak level I cant see him leading a 40 win team. Kobe was about as good...but he needs ready made teammates he can trust or he straight up alienates guys.

Kinda like Jordan vs Bird really.

Jordan has to have teammates he can respect....or he will brutalize them. He will get them to play hard...but not play together or really gel.

Bird played so unselfishly he made guys who knew he was better than them...feel like they had just as much to contribute. Teammates...role players at least...play hard for a Bird/Lebron type. They seem to love the team and just play hard and have fun together.


Teammates...role players at least...are on edge with Kobe/Jordan types. They play hard not to let the star down. They dont seem to play hard because they love the team and want it to succeed. They just dont want to be the one who ruins it for the star.


Bit like Oscar Robertson really. Hes compared to Magic and Lebron as a big guard but really....he was the Kobe/Jordan of the 60s. As Wayne Embry put it:



Oscar was so far ahead of us humans that you could never come up to his level. But because of his greatness and what he meant to the franchise, you hated to fail him. Oscars greatness sometimes overwhelmed Adrian Smith. He'd tell Oscar, "Please, O, you know Im trying, I really am. You gotta believe me, O."



There is a place for that kind of leadership. With the right teammates you can still win. But its a tougher mix to find and you need the right coach to make it work.

Oscar never had the right coach. Kobe and Jordan had Phil to steer the ship.

They both really got lucky with that.

[branslowski]

Its close enough that id say anyone acting like its a blowout either way should have their opinions disregarded on either player in the future.

Total "Depends on what you want" situation.

There are teams that Kobe might help more. There are teams Lebron would.

I dont think peak Kobe loses the 2011 finals in Lebrons place. I cant see him just assuming it would all work out if he keeps making the right play. Kobe would have eventually tried to take over. And he was likely too great to stop from doing it on a team with Wade and Bosh that only needed a key basket here and there. That series wasnt far off from being Miamis. They won 2 of the first 3 and Wade missed a shot that would have given them the other game. I think Kobe could have taken it the other way.


But....I also think some of those Laker teams could improve with peak Lebron. Not enough to really matter I guess but Lebron hit a point where guys just seem to fall in line and play hard for him even while being somewhat marginalized. Thats a tough one. To make someone a bystander in the offense but still improve chemistry? Once Bron hit his peak level I cant see him leading a 40 win team. Kobe was about as good...but he needs ready made teammates he can trust or he straight up alienates guys.

Kinda like Jordan vs Bird really.

Jordan has to have teammates he can respect....or he will brutalize them. He will get them to play hard...but not play together or really gel.

Bird played so unselfishly he made guys who knew he was better than them...feel like they had just as much to contribute. Teammates...role players at least...play hard for a Bird/Lebron type. They seem to love the team and just play hard and have fun together.


Teammates...role players at least...are on edge with Kobe/Jordan types. They play hard not to let the star down. They dont seem to play hard because they love the team and want it to succeed. They just dont want to be the one who ruins it for the star.


Bit like Oscar Robertson really. Hes compared to Magic and Lebron as a big guard but really....he was the Kobe/Jordan of the 60s. As Wayne Embry put it:






There is a place for that kind of leadership. With the right teammates you can still win. But its a tougher mix to find and you need the right coach to make it work.

Oscar never had the right coach. Kobe and Jordan had Phil to steer the ship.

They both really got lucky with that.

Kblaze always coming to a thread and leaving the best post, I hate this guy.:oldlol:

[Trollsmasher]

why are some idiots in this thread talking about 2011 for Bran when the topic is clearly defined?

[Kblaze8855]

His peak isnt my peak. Lebron didnt get worse for a week in 2011. Hes been on essentially the same Level for some time. Some years he plays in the post more...or shoots better...or plays better defense. But there is no major difference.

Besides....people usually qualify things not because it has to be done but because it removes inconvient data. Like ESPN saying someone is the first player to do something 4 others have done...but they dont count it because they cut it off right after the last person did it and leave an asterisk saying "Since the 1980-1981 season".

I see no reason not to consider the Lebron won won 66 games with a team full of nobodies and has beens or the Kobe who dropped 56 in three quarters.

If you dont want to consider them....feel free not to read what I have to say. I will lose no sleep.

[GIF REACTION]

Make a pick.

[Kblaze8855]

I'd rather start a team with LeBron because I think he will be easier to build around but that doesn't necessarily make him better at basketball. And I'm not the type to make a clear distinction where I don't see one. I'm not hosting a radio show and having to pick one just to anger the other side and get attention. Favoring one and sticking to it is decisive but that doesn't make it more accurate.

I'd rather feel reasonable than decisive.

I've been called worse than a fence sitter.

[West-Side]

I'd rather start a team with LeBron because I think he will be easier to build around but that doesn't necessarily make him better at basketball. And I'm not the type to make a clear distinction where I don't see one. I'm not hosting a radio show and having to pick one just to anger the other side and get attention. Favoring one and sticking to it is decisive but that doesn't make it more accurate.

I'd rather feel reasonable than decisive.

I've been called worse than a fence sitter.

You're one of the best posters on here because you're very neutral to discussion at hand.

I totally agree, I'd pick LeBron with the #1 pick over Kobe because I think it would be easier for me to build a team around him. A 6'9 SF who's versatile, talented, can play multiple positions and defend almost all 5 positions.

I don't think he is a better basketball player though.
I'd probably take Shaquille, Magic and Kareem above almost anyone (in their peak) because I feel they would be easiest to create a team around.

[DonDadda59]

Stop it....I was watching those game seeing Kobe clamp down defenders on one end and then still score on their faces on the other....

And in that same year ofcource he was voted All-Defensive First team by ACTUAL NBA COACHES, not message board haters...But you ca carry on ya Bullshit.

[INDENT][B]

[aau]

Kobe was ass cheeks defensively during his highest scoring seasons. He conserved energy on D and used it all to chuck indiscriminately on O. He was making all Defensive teams due to his past reputation, not his actual play. His own coaches pointed this out, on several occasions. Hating ass Phil and Tex SMH.


this is interesting

checked the top 5 perimeter scorers from that season
iverson - arenas - wade - redd and ray allen
and charted their performances vs the lakers

iverson
G1 34 pts 10/23 fg - 12/16 ft
G2 31 pts on 11/22 fg

arenas
G1 29 pts on 6/20 fg 13/14 ft
G2 34 pts 11/23 fg - 10/11 ft

wade
G1 18 pts 5/15 fg 8/13 ft
G2 34 pts 11/24 fg 12/16 ft

redd
G1 21 pts 7/16 fg
G2 20 pts 6/14 fg

ray allen
G1 19 pts 6/15 fg
G2 19 pts 8/17 fg
G3 29 pts 10/27 fg


11 games vs the top perimeter scorers in the league
. . . . . iverson was the only player to shoot 50%

allen was held below 20 pts and 50% in 2 of 3
redd was held far below his average and 50% twice
wade was held below a dub and missed 10 of 15 shots
arenas was held to 6 for 20 shooting while scoring 29 pts
iverson appears to be the only player to literally give him fits

but then again
maybe it was smush parker that put the clamps on these guys



will check the tapes and holla back

[riseagainst]

what separated kobe and lebron is lebron is a superior player than kobe.

[Wade's Rings]

2011 Wade was definitely better, but in 09/10 it's arguable. I would say Kobe had the edge in man D but Wade had the edge in help D.

I said it was arguable for 09/10 as well. Even if we give Kobe Man Defense, Wade's Overall Impact Defensively made him the better defender.


Those DPOY placements don't really mean much considering that neither Kobe nor Wade were seriously considered. I mean in 2009, Dwight had 105/120 first place votes, Lebron had 4, and Wade had 3. Kobe had 2. In 2010, Dwight had 110/120 first place votes. Wade tied for 10th with 13 points and Kobe was just under him with 9 points (12th). The placings for DPOY are pretty irrelevant since there's barely any separation. Dwight ran away with the award both years anyway. It's the same thing in 2002. Kobe was technically 3rd behind Ben Wallace and KG, but Wallace had 116/120 first place votes.

They were never seriously considered but Wade & Kobe weren't going to beat Prime Ben Wallace & KG or Peak Dwight. However they deserve credit for their Defense either way.


Wade fans stop bitching about Kobe "taking Wade's spot on the all defensive teams"

there are 2 spots for guards.. Kobe isn't taking both..

Raja Bell, Kirk Hinrich, Chauncey Billups & J Kidd were making all defensive teams over Wade in his prime..

so bitch about that..

It's the fact that Kobe has a reserved spot on the All D Teams for the 2 Guard Spot.

It doesn't even only apply to the All D Team, look at some of the All NBA 1st Teams. In 2009 Kobe was in the 2 Guard Spot. Wade even with his EPIC Regular Season was moved to the PG Spot on the 1st Team and CP3 got left off 1st Team because of Kobe being on there. In 2011 Rose was MVP so his spot on 1st Team was reserved, so why did Kobe get it over Wade?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Typical Wade fan response the the all defensive teams stuff..

Change the topic to something unrelated like all nba teams in 2011..

Kirk Hinrich and old man Kidd made all defensive teams over Wade when Wade was in his absolute prime..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe wasn't the problem dude..

[Stu Jackson]

Typical Wade fan response the the all defensive teams stuff..

Change the topic to something unrelated like all nba teams in 2011..

Kirk Hinrich and old man Kidd made all defensive teams over Wade when Wade was in his absolute prime..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe wasn't the problem dude..
you are a sissy

wade is a product of the easier rules for contact but kobe is manufactured

kobe bryant lebron james tim duncan are not top 10

none are better than tmac or kd

[Wade's Rings]

Typical Wade fan response the the all defensive teams stuff..

Change the topic to something unrelated like all nba teams in 2011..

Kirk Hinrich and old man Kidd made all defensive teams over Wade when Wade was in his absolute prime..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe wasn't the problem dude..

His spot is reserved no matter what. Was Kobe even better than Hinrich those years? Who cares it's Kobe he's going to be on the All D Team either way :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

His spot is reserved no matter what. Was Kobe even better than Hinrich those years? Who cares it's Kobe he's going to be on the All D Team either way :roll:

:rolleyes:

you sound like a child

you want to put all this blame on Kobe for Wade not making the all defenisve teams..

yet can't explain why Wade couldn't make it over guys like Raja Bell, Hinrich, old man Kidd and Chauncey when Wad was in his absolute prime

:oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

:rolleyes:

you sound like a child

you want to put all this blame on Kobe for Wade not making the all defenisve teams..

yet can't explain why Wade couldn't make it over guys like Raja Bell, Hinrich, old man Kidd and Chauncey when Wad was in his absolute prime

:oldlol:

The only years I say Wade was robbed of 1st Team is 09-11, so all your talk about Hinrich, Kidd, don't apply to me.

[TheMarkMadsen]

2005: Kobe doesn't make any all defensive team, Wade is tied with J Kidd & makes all defensive 2nd team, beat out by Larry Hughes..

2006: Wade doesn't make either all defensive team... can't even beat out the 2nd tier guys like Chauncey Billups

2007: Doesn't play enough games to be eliglble

2008: Doesn't play enough games to be eligible

2009: Doesn't beat out Chris Paul, makes 2nd team

2010: Can't beat out Rondo, makes 2nd team

2011: Doesn't get selected for either of the all defensive teams

2012: Doesn't get selected for either of the all defensive teams

2013: Doesn't get selected for either of the all defensive teams

2014: Doesn't get selected for either of the all defensive teams

2015: Doesn't get selected for either of the all defensive teams


That's 8 years where he didn't make either all defensive teams.. how is Kobe keeping him off both tiers.. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

The only years I say Wade was robbed of 1st Team is 09-11, so all your talk about Hinrich, Kidd, don't apply to me.

he didn't even make the 2nd team in 2011 so how did he deserve to be first team..

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

he didn't even make the 2nd team in 2011 so how did he deserve to be first team..

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

True you got me there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

True you got me there.

I agree that in 09 Wade could have easily been first team.. 2010 maybe..

but that's 2 years and majority of people who use this argument act like Kobe has been holding Wade off of the all defensive first team his entire career which isn't close to being true

[Wade's Rings]

I agree that in 09 Wade could have easily been first team.. 2010 maybe..

but that's 2 years and majority of people who use this argument act like Kobe has been holding Wade off of the all defensive first team his entire career which isn't close to being true

I usually refer to those 3 years and i think that's what most other Wade fans refer too. However, other people probably complain about him making it in 06-07 and IIRC he made it 12-13 and that's where the whole career talk comes from.