Magic was probably outplayed by Stockton in the 1988 WCSF

[Rocketswin2013]

Worth noting. Watching the series, they didn't defend each other but Stockton was the most player in the series. He was doubled by Cooper and whoever else was nearby everytime he went across the halfcourt line. He even had a 29/20/5 game in the game 7. Stockton was a monster at times.

[Young X]

Also tied the record for assists in a playoff game in game 5 only to lose on a gamewinning shot by Cooper iirc.

[TheBigVeto]

Stockton = GOAT PG.

[Smoke117]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg 3.85topg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg 3.71topg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

[diamenz]

Stockton = GOAT PG.

i'm with ya.

[iTare]

Stockton = GOAT PG.
:applause:

[Round Mound]

The GOAT Pure PG!

[sundizz]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

That might be the best pg stat line i've ever seen in the modern era. Insane.

[Megabox!]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft
:biggums: Jesus

[WayOfWade]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft
Not even in 2K could I achieve that

[kennethgriffin]

he was also outplayed by isiah thomas in the nba finals


and the pistons should be the 1988 champs. but a bogus call and 2 free throws by kareem was what saved their season

[Harison]

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

GOAT pure PG :applause: :bowdown:

[Young X]

he was also outplayed by isiah thomas in the nba finalsNo he wasn't. He got outplayed in game 6 when Isiah had that legendary quarter but outside of that he was the best player in that series and should've won FMVP.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit? :oldlol:

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

[stalkerforlife]

Stockton is underrated.

Dude has a legit argument for top 15 all time.

[sportjames23]

he was also outplayed by isiah thomas in the nba finals


and the pistons should be the 1988 champs. but a bogus call and 2 free throws by kareem was what saved their season


This is where you know this dude is a pure Kobestan and no Laker fan. Can't give the Lakers franchise's greatest player any credit. :facepalm

And no, Stockton is NOT the GOAT PG. Earvin "Magic" Johnson is.

Stockton played his ass off in that series (probably his best series ever) and it seemed like Utah surprised a lot of people who took them for granted, including the Lakers. It sure did put the Jazz, and Stockton and Malone, on the map (first time I started paying attention to them).

But, we all know how that series ended--with a Lakers victory. :rockon:

[sportjames23]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit? :oldlol:

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

You know how muh****as who probably weren't even alive back then have to revise history. :oldlol:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Been said this.......he's the best PG outside of Magic and Oscar. CP3 def peaked higher but he doesn't have career yet. Stockton and CP3 are the most skilled/complete PGs of alltime......O and D together

Nikkas also forget jerry Sloan was a control freak back then. That series against magic he wasn't the coach...... Sloan got em running pickandroll better with Karl and the other offense but it limited Stockton he wasn't free like someone like Nash who dantoni completely made. To this day I'm not sure who deserved more credit on jazz Stockton or Malone?

[bizil]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit? :oldlol:

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

I agree! I break it down like this:

THE GOAT PURE PG's with alpha dog scoring ability: 1.Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke

THE GOAT PURE PG's who weren't alpha dog scorers (I consider Nash a guy who has alpha dog scoring shit): 1. Stock 2. Kidd 3. Cousy

Historically, the number one job description of a PG is to pass first and be like the quarterback. ALL SIX of the guys I named fufilled that to a tee. I consider Magic, Big O, and Zeke PURE PG's. All three were pass first PG's. BUT they also happened to have alpha dog takeover scoring ability along with it. Even though Magic and Big O were VERY VERSATILE and played multiple positions, their PRIMARY position was at PG. Magic played with a natural SG in Scott and a natural SF in Worthy for many years.

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it. BUT guys like Magic, Big O, and Zeke still qualify as pure PG's. This new wave of score first kind of PG's like Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Kyrie, and Lillard are changing how we judge PG's. They play like smaller SG's BUT ALSO have the handles and passing ability to play PG. BUT they do it from a score first mentality. When it comes to those kind of guys, I WOULDN'T call them pure PG's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You know how muh****as who probably weren't even alive back then have to revise history. :oldlol:

Exactly. People who claim that nonsense have a clear agenda. Could be hate or fandom of another player to knock Magic down a peg - an agenda through and through tho.


I agree! I break it down like this:

THE GOAT PURE PG's with alpha dog scoring ability: 1.Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke

THE GOAT PURE PG's who weren't alpha dog scorers (I consider Nash a guy who has alpha dog scoring shit): 1. Stock 2. Kidd 3. Cousy

Historically, the number one job description of a PG is to pass first and be like the quarterback. ALL SIX of the guys I named fufilled that to a tee. I consider Magic, Big O, and Zeke PURE PG's. All three were pass first PG's. BUT they also happened to have alpha dog takeover scoring ability along with it. Even though Magic and Big O were VERY VERSATILE and played multiple positions, their PRIMARY position was at PG. Magic played with a natural SG in Scott and a natural SF in Worthy for many years.

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it. BUT guys like Magic, Big O, and Zeke still qualify as pure PG's. This new wave of score first kind of PG's like Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Kyrie, and Lillard are changing how we judge PG's. They play like smaller SG's BUT ALSO have the handles and passing ability to play PG. BUT they do it from a score first mentality. When it comes to those kind of guys, I WOULDN'T call them pure PG's.

Pretty solid breakdown. I feel that you're underrating Magic's passing because of his scoring ability (he and Larry are probably the greatest and most spectacular 'highlight passers' ever) - but its cool. The fact he was elite in both areas is why dude's arguably the most efficient offensive player ever, especially in the postseason.

[Pointguard]

That might be the best pg stat line i've ever seen in the modern era. Insane. Not to diminish Stockton's great feat of 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt. but the year before in the finals Magic had 26/13/8 on 541% overall FG, 500% from 3 point land, better TS%, exactly half as many turnovers, more clutch plays and FMVP against a HOFer defensive great.

[L.A. Jazz]

i Am a big Stockton fan, he is my PG alltime (just on my Team).

but why was Magic not as good as 1987? was he hurt or tired?

[Pointguard]

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it.
I think Stockton ran the Utah scheme as good as it could be ran - Stockton and Malone had maybe the best timing between two players ever. But Deron Williams was on par with CP3 as the best PG's in the league, for at least three years when he ran that Jazz scheme, but wasn't even average once he left that scheme. In what should have been his peak he's averaging 40% less assist without Jerry Sloan's coaching (10 to 6 assist). I'm just saying there is some enhancer going on even without Karl Malone in the Sloan system.

When Magic went out for rest on USA teams (I think Stockton was hurt for USA team) or All Star games, there was a considerable dropoff when Stockton ran those teams. But a case can be made that Stockton hated those environments. I never seen any team Magic had practices with that looked disjointed.

[Sarcastic]

Stockton is underrated.

Dude has a legit argument for top 15 all time.


No he doesn't. He has even no argument for top 25 all time.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No he doesn't. He has even no argument for top 25 all time.
:biggums: :biggums: he is EASILY top 30 no doubt about it and prolly top 20

[Sarcastic]

:biggums: :biggums: he is EASILY top 30 no doubt about it and prolly top 20

In no order

Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Oscar
West
Baylor
Moses
Dr J
Havlicek
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Kevin Durant
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Kevin Garnett
Wes Unseld


That's 26 I named that are better, and there are some I left out, which are debatable.

[bobopenguin]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg 3.85topg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg 3.71topg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

i would take off my pant for this guy.. no homo. :biggums:

[Genaro]

Where can I find this series complete games?

[bizil]

Exactly. People who claim that nonsense have a clear agenda. Could be hate or fandom of another player to knock Magic down a peg - an agenda through and through tho.



Pretty solid breakdown. I feel that you're underrating Magic's passing because of his scoring ability (he and Larry are probably the greatest and most spectacular 'highlight passers' ever) - but its cool. The fact he was elite in both areas is why dude's arguably the most efficient offensive player ever, especially in the postseason.

How was I underrating Magic's passing ability? I think he's the best passer of all time. BUT I can see some arguing Stockton as the best passer of all time. In my breakdown, I was pointing out the fact that Magic WAS a pure PG.

As pure as one could be IN TERMS of what being a PG, leader, and floor general should be. But he was ALSO an alpha dog level scorer on top of it. Stockton was also a pass first PG BUT he wasn't an alpha dog scorer. So how was I underrating Magic's passing ability?

[bizil]

I think Stockton ran the Utah scheme as good as it could be ran - Stockton and Malone had maybe the best timing between two players ever. But Deron Williams was on par with CP3 as the best PG's in the league, for at least three years when he ran that Jazz scheme, but wasn't even average once he left that scheme. In what should have been his peak he's averaging 40% less assist without Jerry Sloan's coaching (10 to 6 assist). I'm just saying there is some enhancer going on even without Karl Malone in the Sloan system.

When Magic went out for rest on USA teams (I think Stockton was hurt for USA team) or All Star games, there was a considerable dropoff when Stockton ran those teams. But a case can be made that Stockton hated those environments. I never seen any team Magic had practices with that looked disjointed.

Well said! I think Magic is the best passer of all time personally. However, I can see some arguing Stockton too because of his success in that Utah system.

But I think the guys like Magic, Nash, Isiah, and Kidd have more WIZARDRY with the rock than Stockton. I think they are better at fooling the defense and being more unpredictable than Stock running a team. As u stated, Stock was in that Utah system. So it was more about "you know what's coming, but u can't stop it."

With somebody like Magic, he was so creative and unpredictable that he would literally fool defenses. Basically, Magic had MORE WAYS to dominate passing the rock than Stock. U hear people talk about scoring skillset. But u also have passing skillset too. Typically the guys who COMBINED the unexpected dimes ALONG with the pinpoint textbook running of plays are harder to figure out.

[L.A. Jazz]

You cant have it both ways!

Magic could make some passes because of his height, which John couldnt do. Thats for sure. But John tricked as many guys as Magic and killed them even when they knew which Play the Jazz ran.

[sportjames23]

You cant have it both ways!

Magic could make some passes because of his height, which John couldnt do. Thats for sure. But John tricked as many guys as Magic and killed them even when they knew which Play the Jazz ran.


Says the guy who calls himself L.A. Jazz. :D

[90sgoat]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit? :oldlol:

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

Yes, Magic was also a pure point guard. Pass first and what impresses me most with Magic after watching old vids was not his flashy fast break passing, but his ability to consistently make the non-flashy pass in the half court to the right man. He always seemed to find guys in the position they wanted to be in at the right time. Reminds me a lot of Jason Kidd in that, making the hockey assist a lot too.

Stockton might be the GOAT half court point guard though. We have to keep in mind that the entire league knew that Stockton and Malone were going to pick and roll and they did it again and again for 10 years and no one could stop it. Of course, Stockton was an excellent mid range pick and pop shooter so if you fell back on Malone he'd punish you with a jumper. If you brought help on the PnR he'd easily find the other guy. I think Stocktons scoring ability in the half court midrange was better than Magic.

[90sgoat]

Stockton is underrated.

Dude has a legit argument for top 15 all time.

Him and Malone both.

Malone is criminally underrated just because MJ took his two championships. Malone and Stockton in the twilight of their careers SWEPT Shaq in LA with a team of Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel, Rick Fox, Horry, Elden Campell, Derek Fisher and Kobe. SWEPT.

If you give Malone two championships (if MJ never played), would anyone really not put him in top ten or right outside?

I've said for a long time, that Lebron is just the same tier as Malone and Barkley. Somehow people think this is a slight. It really isn't. Lebron has too many glaring errors to be truly elite tier.

[aj1987]

In no order

Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Oscar
West
Baylor
Moses
Dr J
Havlicek
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Kevin Durant
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Kevin Garnett
Wes Unseld


That's 26 I named that are better, and there are some I left out, which are debatable.
How exactly is KD higher than Stockton all time? Dude played like 7 seasons.

Also, Wade, Dirk, Pippen, Pettit, McAdoo, Barry, Ewing, Drexler, etc..

[Rocketswin2013]

Where can I find this series complete games?
YouTube. I watched it on the, channel, "NBA old stars" for the most part, and a couple fragmented(in 12 parts) games on other channels. Several channels have it. Easy to find. :cheers:

[sundizz]

If you don't have Stockton in your top 15 for basketball ratings you are a flat out hater, pure and simple.

He did it against the best, and better the best.

He is the NBA all time leader in 2 (assists, steals) of the 5 major statistical categories. That is absolutely insane. And it's not even close.

He played EVERY game in 17 out of 19 seasons, including 82 games played at age 37, 38, 39, 40.

At age 39, in the 2001 playoffs (completely modern era) he averaged 12.5 ppg, 10 apg and 2.8 spg.

At we time transported an age 39 Stockton to 2016, going into the playoffs the only point guards in the NBA that a team would clearly take ahead of him are Steph Curry and Chris Paul.

[Pointguard]

YouTube. I watched it on the, channel, "NBA old stars" for the most part, and a couple fragmented(in 12 parts) games on other channels. Several channels have it. Easy to find. :cheers:
There is recap off the series on YouTube and Stockton is mentioned once as a small reference. Stockton had better stats in the last game but not the better game. Magic turned that game out in the fourth.

Two important things to remember about Magic. He could dominate without stats and he was very clutch.

[Rocketswin2013]

There is recap off the series on YouTube and Stockton is mentioned once as a small reference. Stockton had better stats in the last game but not the better game. Magic turned that game out in the fourth.

Two important things to remember about Magic. He could dominate without stats and he was very clutch.
...Not sure how that matters. And throughout the series the, announcers were gushing over him and the pressure he was putting on in transition. The guy was getting doubled in transition even when off the ball by the time game 2 came around.


Also, I'm really glad you said magic could dominate games without doing much on the stat sheet because now I know for SURE to tab that as bullshit unto proven otherwise whenever it's said about a series I didn't watch. :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

This is where you know this dude is a pure Kobestan and no Laker fan. Can't give the Lakers franchise's greatest player any credit. :facepalm

And no, Stockton is NOT the GOAT PG. Earvin "Magic" Johnson is.

Stockton played his ass off in that series (probably his best series ever) and it seemed like Utah surprised a lot of people who took them for granted, including the Lakers. It sure did put the Jazz, and Stockton and Malone, on the map (first time I started paying attention to them).

But, we all know how that series ended--with a Lakers victory. :rockon:

Yeah because Frank Layden and Mark Ivaroni gave game 6 away. They had them beat. So much for the repeat.


Nikkas also forget jerry Sloan was a control freak back then. That series against magic he wasn't the coach...... Sloan got em running pickandroll better with Karl and the other offense but it limited Stockton he wasn't free like someone like Nash who dantoni completely made. To this day I'm not sure who deserved more credit on jazz Stockton or Malone?

Stockton. They ran Showtime out of the building. Why Sloan insisted on the half court game after that I'll never know. :wtf:

[Pointguard]

...Not sure how that matters. And throughout the series the, announcers were gushing over him and the pressure he was putting on in transition. The guy was getting doubled in transition even when off the ball by the time game 2 came around.


Also, I'm really glad you said magic could dominate games without doing much on the stat sheet because now I know for SURE to tab that as bullshit unto proven otherwise whenever it's said about a series I didn't watch. :lol
Wait which one is it. You seen the series but couldn't tell if Stockton out played him? The title of the thread suggest you dont have a clue but the stats make you feel a certain type of way. Obviously, Magic had inferior stats but you still had to say "probably outplayed" by Stockton in the title of the thread. But above you are claiming ignorance and B.S. as to how a player without great stats can dominate.


:lol

Here is a recap video of the series.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm2g8Cy4t8I
I think Stockton was mentioned??? Malone was mentioned and referred to often. The Laker's adjustments were about Malone. Magic won game four and game seven with clutch plays or several plays that changed the game.

The producers don't seem like Stockton haters...

[Genaro]

YouTube. I watched it on the, channel, "NBA old stars" for the most part, and a couple fragmented(in 12 parts) games on other channels. Several channels have it. Easy to find. :cheers:
Thank you. :cheers:

[kshutts1]

I agree! I break it down like this:

THE GOAT PURE PG's with alpha dog scoring ability: 1.Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke

THE GOAT PURE PG's who weren't alpha dog scorers (I consider Nash a guy who has alpha dog scoring shit): 1. Stock 2. Kidd 3. Cousy
Why is Cousy so low? He won one MVP, 8 of the first 11 assist titles, and I dunno where to find this info, but I'm pretty positive that Cousy finished top 5 in MVP voting like six other times.

[Mr Feeny]

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg 3.71topg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

This is just filthy :oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

Him and Malone both.

Malone is criminally underrated just because MJ took his two championships. Malone and Stockton in the twilight of their careers SWEPT Shaq in LA with a team of Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel, Rick Fox, Horry, Elden Campell, Derek Fisher and Kobe. SWEPT.

If you give Malone two championships (if MJ never played), would anyone really not put him in top ten or right outside?

I've said for a long time, that Lebron is just the same tier as Malone and Barkley. Somehow people think this is a slight. It really isn't. Lebron has too many glaring errors to be truly elite tier.

:applause:

[bizil]

Why is Cousy so low? He won one MVP, 8 of the first 11 assist titles, and I dunno where to find this info, but I'm pretty positive that Cousy finished top 5 in MVP voting like six other times.

Kidd and Stockton have double the assists that Cousy had. Peak wise, I think Kidd and Stockton are both superior players to Cousy. I understand Cousy had more rings than those guys. But other than that, I think Kidd and Stock had individual careers that TRUMP Cousy's. I still consider Cousy a top 6 to 8 GOAT PG overall. The competition and talent pool was MUCH MORE DEEPER when Kidd and Stockton played.

Going by your logic, George Mikan should be higher GOAT wise than somebody like David Robinson or Moses Malone. Mikan won more rings and was the first great original big man. Mikan came in the league ONLY two years before Cousy. The talent pool back then SIMPLY wasn't like it was later in the 60's and 70's. Mikan played ALL OF HIS CAREER in the 50's. Cousy PLAYED the majority of his career in the 50's.

GOAT status factors numbers, peak value, longevity being great, solo accolades, and team accolades. Going by ALL OF THAT u can have Moses and Robinson rate over Mikan GOAT wise. U can ALSO have Stockton and Kidd rank over Cousy GOAT wise.