Is mid 2000's kobe the greatest scorer of all time?

[Hit_Em]

I cant even hate on em that mf could flat out score that orange #respect :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

When he was hot, yes, probably. That was very rare, however. On a day to day basis (i.e., for anything more than a game or three), I'd have Jordan, Wilt, and KAJ definitely ahead of him and possibly Shaq/Durant as well.

[kennethgriffin]

nobody else could average 40 for multiple months, 35 on the year, drop 81, outscore a team by himself on good percentages *while taking the same shots he did*

if any other player tried his type of difficult routine shot selection... i dont care who it is. they shoot under 40%. especially over double teams 30 feet out



best bad shot maker of all time. most talented scorer ever. period

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe is the best "hot" player of all time. When he's rolling, there is nothing you can do.

[branslowski]

Yes he was...Imagine if Twitter and IG was back then as it is now when Kobe was scoring like he was?...Imagine seeing any player today scoring 50pts in 4 straight games? The media would be going insane.

Imagine a player today scoring 63pts in 3 quarters vs the Eventual champions?

I remember when Bron almost got that 50pt triple double vs Knicks and posters saying "Kobe could never score 50 and still have an all-round game, HAHA"...Then you realize this hater never watched NBA past LeBron cause we all then remember Kobe dropping 53pts 10reb 8ast vs Shane Battier and the Rockets.

Kobe was the greatest scorer the NBA has ever seen after Wilt. And Wilt played in a pusse era and he was stealing his teammates shots with Offensive Basket interferences. Kobe the GOAT in scoring....Just his playing too soon with the 7ppg Rookie year off the bench and that next low scoring first year f*cked his Points PER GAME avg up, but being 3rd All-Time in total points more than Jordan is fine by me.

[West-Side]

When he was hot, yes, probably. That was very rare, however. On a day to day basis (i.e., for anything more than a game or three), I'd have Jordan, Wilt, and KAJ definitely ahead of him and possibly Shaq/Durant as well.

:facepalm

[Dbrog]

Kobe is the best "hot" player of all time. When he's rolling, there is nothing you can do.

Best describes Kobe.

@branslowski - What are you saying man? It was only 9 years ago when Kobe was scoring out of his mind. Media was just as big then and he was getting SUPER hyped. Kobe definitely best scorer since Wilt.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:facepalm

Huh? If you extend a sample size beyond a few games, there are better scorers than Kobe. Like I said. Peak Kobe is not a better scorer over the course of a month, half season, or season than guys like KAJ, Wilt and Jordan and arguably a couple others.

[Kblaze8855]

Depends on if being a great scorer to you is about the points or the ability to score. Its not like Kobe was less capable in 2009 or 2005...than he was in 2003 or 2006. There are always health concerns that might slightly alter potential but when Kobe went crazy in 03 for the first time...its not like he actually got better for a month or two. And 05 Kobe when he was healthy....I gotta think that he could have scored more than he did.

Kobe like many people who are virtually(not literally of course) unstoppable is a massive skillset squeezed into the circumstances. Swap him out for Bird on his Celtics...no way hes scoring 35. Even if the era would have given him more chances...he has too much talent to justify it.

Bird had 40 point halves just to prove a point in 86 and 60 point games just to get the Celtics scoring record back from Mchale who just took it with 57. I dont think him scoring 21-29 a game means thats what he was capable of. Just that its what he did.

Like Hakeem. He was having 21ppg years then in his 30s puts up 33 a game on the way to a title. Not so much better....as focused on scoring with a team that supports it.

Id say Kobes scoring skillset is as complete as anyones.

But he was put in position to show more of it than most others who could be on the same level.

That plus that whole mid 2000s explosion. Past his prime AI puts up 33 a game with 3-4 months in the 34-35 a game range? Lebron 31...Redd and Kevin Martin doing like 26 a game? Arenas 30+ hanging 60 on the Lakers? Pierce and Ray Allen having career years scoring wise as they were at the end of their primes. Kobe on a shitty team scoring 35 doesnt seem that out of place.

Its clearly not by chance all that happened at the same time.

So I throw out most of the numbers on that question.

As I said...skillset wise? Hes as good as ive seen.

But hes not alone on the top of that mountain.

[Young X]

Huh? If you extend a sample size beyond a few games, there are better scorers than Kobe. Like I said. Peak Kobe is not a better scorer over the course of a month, half season, or season than guys like KAJ, Wilt and Jordan and arguably a couple others.Where would you rank someone like Barkley?

[BigNBAfan]

If there was IG or twitter then he'd trend more than AIDS in africa

[West-Side]

Huh? If you extend a sample size beyond a few games, there are better scorers than Kobe. Like I said. Peak Kobe is not a better scorer over the course of a month, half season, or season than guys like KAJ, Wilt and Jordan and arguably a couple others.


Kobe Bryant averaged 43.4 ppg in 13 games in January, the highest scoring calendar month by an NBA player since Wilt Chamberlain averaged 45.8 ppg in March 1963. The Lakers went 9-4 in those games after losing their first two games of the month during Kobe's suspension for elbowing Mike Miller. Bryant also averaged 40-plus ppg (40.6) in February 2003, when he had nine straight 40-plus point games, the fourth longest such streak in NBA history; Chamberlain had two 14 game streaks of 40-plus point games and one 10 game streak. Bryant is the only player other than Chamberlain to average 40-plus ppg in two different calendar months; Chamberlain did it 11 times. Elgin Baylor had one such calendar month--and no other NBA player has ever done this even once: not Iverson, not Jordan, not Gervin, not Kareem, not Barry, not Oscar, not West.

Bryant's January average is the third best January scoring average in NBA history, trailing only Wilt's 50.0 ppg in 1962 and Wilt's 46.3 ppg in 1963. Notice the pattern here? Kobe is repeatedly doing things that have not been done since the days of Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor, something I first wrote about in my January 11 post titled "Kobe Goes Where Only Wilt and Elgin Went Before":

:facepalm

[branslowski]

When he was hot, yes, probably. That was very rare, however. On a day to day basis (i.e., for anything more than a game or three), I'd have Jordan, Wilt, and KAJ definitely ahead of him and possibly Shaq/Durant as well.

This post makes no sense to me...So you talk about multiple games in a row?...Can you show me a player aside from Wilt who scored 50pts in 4 straight games? And had Durant or Shaq scored 40pts in 9 straight games before? I don't even remember Shaq avg 35ppg for a season, Durant either...So talking about Kobe day to day when he avg 35ppg for a whole year and more 50pt games than ALL those players you listed asied from Wilt..:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

:facepalm

You beat me to it:applause:

It's like posters who discredit Kobe (not really saying oldschoolbball, he use to be worst but now he's a moderate Kobe hater) didn't even watch all his games..:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

One of the greatest, not the greatest though.

KAJ and Jordan were better and MORE dominant in the playoffs. Guys like KD, Bernard King and Larry Bird, when they want to score, are definitely in that tier.

[I<3NBA]

you can't be the greatest scorer of all time when you're not even on the top of the all time scoring list. wtf is this shit?

don't tell me you're grading scoring now on "aesthetics."

:facepalm

who cares about difficulty of shots or whatever. it's SCORING. whether it be ugly or whatever, it's all just about scoring. and so far, there's only one guy at the top of that list who has scored more than anybody else in the NBA.

so GTFOH with that Kobe greatest scorer all time bullshit. stop being delusional.

[Kblaze8855]

Wilt is someone I dont even know what to do with. On one hand...the numbers are what the yare. On the other....hes the only player ever asked to do what he did.

He played all but 6 minutes of a season...because he was ejected for a punch he threw.

So hes playing every blowout...every second. Hes asked to score 50...every night. And he has the most posessions in history to do it.

That he managed to just get up and down the court so many times as his size is a marvel...ever look at a legit 7'1'' player after a few minutes of running?

Wilt was going hard both ends 48 minutes a night.

But you cant deny is skews the numbers. Jordan at his peak spread over Wilt minutes....was at 44ppg.

Kobe was probably hovering around what? 40-42?

Another reason you cant just say its an issue of numbers.

[West-Side]

Wilt is someone I dont even know what to do with. On one hand...the numbers are what the yare. On the other....hes the only player ever asked to do what he did.

He played all but 6 minutes of a season...because he was ejected for a punch he threw.

So hes playing every blowout...every second. Hes asked to score 50...every night. And he has the most posessions in history to do it.

That he managed to just get up and down the court so many times as his size is a marvel...ever look at a legit 7'1'' player after a few minutes of running?

Wilt was going hard both ends 48 minutes a night.

But you cant deny is skews the numbers. Jordan at his peak spread over Wilt minutes....was at 44ppg.

Kobe was probably hovering around what? 40-42?

Another reason you cant just say its an issue of numbers.


For the season Kobe is posting numbers that are eerily similar to Michael Jordan's highest scoring campaign, 1986-87, when MJ scored 37.1 ppg, the best single season average by anyone other than Wilt (Wilt did better than that four times). Jordan averaged 5.2 rpg and 4.6 apg that year, while Kobe is currently averaging a virtually identical 5.5 rpg and 4.3 apg to go along with his 35.9 ppg. Kobe is averaging 40.6 mpg while Jordan played 40.0 mpg. The biggest differences are in field goal attempts, field goal percentage and three point shooting. Kobe is attempting almost three more shots per game than Jordan did, is averaging more than five three point shots attempted per game (Jordan shot less than one three pointer per game) and is shooting around .450 from the field while Jordan shot .482. On the surface those numbers make MJ seem to be a much more efficient scorer, but that is only if you ignore the impact of the three point shots. Kobe is not only shooting a lot more of them than Jordan did but he is also connecting at a much better rate, .346 to .182. When you consider the extra point that each of those makes are worth, add in both players' excellent free throw shooting and recalculate the shooting percentage on that basis you discover that Jordan's "true shooting percentage" in '87 is only slightly better than Kobe's this year. Yeah, but the Lakers are not winning that much, right? The Lakers are 24-20 now (.545 winning percentage), while the '87 Bulls finished 40-42 (.488). So Kobe is scoring almost as much as Jordan did in his highest scoring season with nearly the same true shooting percentage, virtually the same rebounding and assists numbers and his team is doing better than Jordan's did. The "heretical" MJ-Kobe comparisons are looking less and less outlandish--and I have always agreed with those who, until this point, felt that such comparisons were not valid.

This is exactly what I've been preaching last week here.
People don't give numbers context at all.

[GIF REACTION]

Also don't forget pace

[tpols]

Also don't forget pace

Wilt in his 50 ppg season was playing at a 131 pace lol..

For comparison sake 87 Jordan and 06 Kobe played at 96 and 91 pace respectively. Kobe by far played at the slowest pace while going off.

[Rocketswin2013]

Just no.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Early 90s Jordan
Mid 2000s Kobe
Late 80s Jordan
Late 90s Jordan / Late 2000s Kobe
2014 Durant
Early 2000s McGrady / Early 2000s Kobe
Early 2010s LeBron
Late 2000s LeBron / Late 2000s Wade
Early 2000s Iverson
2015 LeBron
Current Harden

[STATUTORY]

after adjusting for pace and defensive personnel, no doubt greatest scorer of all time in his peak

[DonDadda59]

Wilt in his 50 ppg season was playing at a 131 pace lol..

For comparison sake 87 Jordan and 06 Kobe played at 96 and 91 pace respectively. Kobe by far played at the slowest pace while going off.

30 year old 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson the same year as Kobe- 33 PPG on 92.7 pace.

And Iverson has 4 scoring titles to Kobe's 2. Overrated as shit.

[Rose'sACL]

KD is the best scorer since MJ.

[tpols]

30 year old 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson the same year as Kobe- 33 PPG on 92.7 pace.

And Iverson has 4 scoring titles to Kobe's 2. Overrated as shit.

Iverson is one of the greatest volume scorers ever man.. even baby iverson was putting up 27 ppg in the 90s, while making your boy MJ look like a downright fool


https://31.media.tumblr.com/67d4be367ef82133d6bbac294885cc95/tumblr_nqf4tpY15I1sps56eo1_400.gif


:eek:

[jstern]

No, because most guards, despite age had career years that year. Rule changes.

[aj1987]

Iverson is one of the greatest volume scorers ever man.. even baby iverson was putting up 27 ppg in the 90s, while making your boy MJ look like a downright fool


https://31.media.tumblr.com/67d4be367ef82133d6bbac294885cc95/tumblr_nqf4tpY15I1sps56eo1_400.gif


:eek:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=iversal01&p2=jordami01

Iverson routinely destroyed MJ. 32, 37, 44, etc. and he was doing that on actually decent efficiency. This is coming from someone who HATES AI, BTW.

[West-Side]

30 year old 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson the same year as Kobe- 33 PPG on 92.7 pace.

And Iverson has 4 scoring titles to Kobe's 2. Overrated as shit.

Hey moron adjust their numbers in terms of efficiency and pace.
Kobe is almost identical to Jordan's career shooting; while Iverson is a good 4% behind both of them.

Kobe has way more impressive scoring accomplishments overall; the fact that you are talking about scoring titles just tells me how stupid you truly are. Scoring titles or almost any award is highly circumstantial.

I guess Nash is better than Shaq, you shit for brains.
Kobe did shit (scoring wise) that Iverson never sniffed in his life and did that on a substantially higher efficiency.

[catch24]

30 year old 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson the same year as Kobe- 33 PPG on 92.7 pace.

And Iverson has 4 scoring titles to Kobe's 2. Overrated as shit.

This dude is such a hater. Wow :oldlol:

Iverson is one of the greatest VOLUME scorers ever...

[DonDadda59]

Iverson is one of the greatest volume scorers ever man.. even baby iverson was putting up 27 ppg in the 90s, while making your boy MJ look like a downright fool


https://31.media.tumblr.com/67d4be367ef82133d6bbac294885cc95/tumblr_nqf4tpY15I1sps56eo1_400.gif


:eek:

Yes 27 PPG during his athletic prime when perimeter defense was allowed, 33 PPG when he was 30 years old and every perimeter player in the league's scoring was grossly inflated. Still, both Bean and AI were drafted in '96. AI retired with 4 scoring titles, Bean will retire with half that amount despite playing a good deal longer.

And that was sound defense by old man Jordan, even recovered enough to almost block the shot. You wanna talk about being made to look like an downright fool... remember when Alec Burks put Bean in one of those phantom zones from the 70s Superman flicks?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-24-2015/H9SKOs.gif

Bean looking like a fool with his pants on the ground. Alec Burks :roll:

[GIF REACTION]

The impact of the 2005 handchecking reinterpretation was negated essentially by the 2001 Illegal defense removal.

[DonDadda59]

Hey moron adjust their numbers in terms of efficiency and pace.
Kobe is almost identical to Jordan's career shooting; while Iverson is a good 4% behind both of them.

Kobe has way more impressive scoring accomplishments overall; the fact that you are talking about scoring titles just tells me how stupid you truly are. Scoring titles or almost any award is highly circumstantial.

I guess Nash is better than Shaq, you shit for brains.
Kobe did shit (scoring wise) that Iverson never sniffed in his life and did that on a substantially higher efficiency.

This dude is mad as phuck :eek:

Bottom line- 1996 draft- Iverson 27 PPG 4 scoring titles, Bean 25 PPG 2 scoring titles.

Kevin 'the Slim Reaper' Durant- 4 scoring titles by age 26 :bowdown:

[AnaheimLakers24]

Prime mj would have blocked that weak ass ai crossover. Hell he almost gets to it in time. Ai sucks

[SamuraiSWISH]

The impact of the 2005 handchecking reinterpretation was negated essentially by the 2001 Illegal defense removal.
That's why every perimeter star in the game had career years in 2006 ... why current, former coaches and players say it's easier than ever to get to the rim. Untouched.

LeBron was in his 3rd season in 2006 and had an even worse, more inconsistent jumper with a less refined scoring skill set. Yet that's his career high for pee pee gee.

And DonDadda is right. Per Iverson's own mouth. He gave Mike his best move, and MJ was such a great defender he recovered to almost block the shot.

:biggums:

[GIF REACTION]

The first year was a shock to the system of defenses and refs calling too much because it was a new rule. Besides, the league wide eFG% barely changed. These so called scoring break outs soon came back down to reality the next few following season as defenses got used to the style, and referees became consistent. It's true.

[tpols]

And that was sound defense by old man Jordan, even recovered enough to almost block the shot. :

getting crossed up while reaching, and splashed right in your grill is now considered sound defense

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1425/14251903/2563254-1361589542722.gif


You better thank your lucky stars MJ had Pippen to take all the tough assigments throughout those chips

[DonDadda59]

And DonDadda is right. Per Iverson's own mouth. He gave Mike his best move, and MJ was such a great defender he recovered to almost block the shot.

:biggums:

Bean stans of all people talking about their guy getting crossed up. :lol

I won't even bring up names like Romel Beck (who, you ask. Exactly, I reply).

Iverson making Bean do the slip n' slide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8nNsx3TYBs).

[DonDadda59]

getting crossed up while reaching, and splashed right in your grill is now considered sound defense

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1425/14251903/2563254-1361589542722.gif

Now you forced me to invoke the name... Romel Beck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj28VvPsjHk)

Even BENO UDRIH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWoXDWhmk6A) had Bean playing a one man game of twister :yaohappy:


You better thank your lucky stars MJ had Pippen to take all the tough assigments throughout those chips

Yup. Remember when Pippen won an MVP, scoring title, and 3 straight Finals MVPs playing alongside Jordan?

Oh right...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPRJlbxCQAA_IuX.jpg

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1425/14251903/2563254-1361589542722.gif

[West-Side]

Shaquille would have won those same MVPs playing with Jordan.

[ShawkFactory]

Depends on if being a great scorer to you is about the points or the ability to score. Its not like Kobe was less capable in 2009 or 2005...than he was in 2003 or 2006. There are always health concerns that might slightly alter potential but when Kobe went crazy in 03 for the first time...its not like he actually got better for a month or two. And 05 Kobe when he was healthy....I gotta think that he could have scored more than he did.

Kobe like many people who are virtually(not literally of course) unstoppable is a massive skillset squeezed into the circumstances. Swap him out for Bird on his Celtics...no way hes scoring 35. Even if the era would have given him more chances...he has too much talent to justify it.

Bird had 40 point halves just to prove a point in 86 and 60 point games just to get the Celtics scoring record back from Mchale who just took it with 57. I dont think him scoring 21-29 a game means thats what he was capable of. Just that its what he did.

Like Hakeem. He was having 21ppg years then in his 30s puts up 33 a game on the way to a title. Not so much better....as focused on scoring with a team that supports it.

Id say Kobes scoring skillset is as complete as anyones.

But he was put in position to show more of it than most others who could be on the same level.

That plus that whole mid 2000s explosion. Past his prime AI puts up 33 a game with 3-4 months in the 34-35 a game range? Lebron 31...Redd and Kevin Martin doing like 26 a game? Arenas 30+ hanging 60 on the Lakers? Pierce and Ray Allen having career years scoring wise as they were at the end of their primes. Kobe on a shitty team scoring 35 doesnt seem that out of place.

Its clearly not by chance all that happened at the same time.

So I throw out most of the numbers on that question.

As I said...skillset wise? Hes as good as ive seen.

But hes not alone on the top of that mountain.
Damn.

Nothing else really needs to be said.

[Rose'sACL]

That's why every perimeter star in the game had career years in 2006 ... why current, former coaches and players say it's easier than ever to get to the rim. Untouched.

LeBron was in his 3rd season in 2006 and had an even worse, more inconsistent jumper with a less refined scoring skill set. Yet that's his career high for pee pee gee.

And DonDadda is right. Per Iverson's own mouth. He gave Mike his best move, and MJ was such a great defender he recovered to almost block the shot.

:biggums:
it was more because of refs getting used to the new rules. individual scoring saw a bump for 1 season and then it went down as refs got used to the rules.
current rules make it harder for iso scorers. this is even more evident in the playoffs.

[DonDadda59]

Shaquille would have won those same MVPs playing with Jordan.

And Jordan would've retired with 8 championships, 8 finals MVPs, 6 maybe 7 season MVPs, 12 scoring titles, and would've been #1 or 2 all time leading scorer if he hadn't retired in the mid 90s.

Too bad we don't live in a World of 'would haves'. We live in reality

[GIF REACTION]

A 1-9 reality.

[West-Side]

And Jordan would've retired with 8 championships, 8 finals MVPs, 6 maybe 7 season MVPs, 12 scoring titles, and would've been #1 or 2 all time leading scorer if he hadn't retired in the mid 90s.

Too bad we don't live in a World of 'would haves'. We live in reality

In reality Shaquille won his first championship alongside Kobe Bryant, not Van Axel & Jones, not Penny. No he didn't, despite those players being really good. He won his first ring with a 20 year old star by the name of Kobe Bryant. So maybe you should take your own advice and live in reality. You pointing out that Kobe played with a big that had arguably the greatest 3 year span in league history shouldn't take away from the fact that Kobe was instrumental to those championship Lakers as well. I don't see a single player in league history that would have demanded more attention from defenses than Shaq did those years. But that doesn't mean Kobe wasn't a superstar in 2001 and 2002. He was easily the 2nd best player in the entire playoffs in 2001, and a top 5 player in 2002. Him winning 2 titles and leading his team to 3 straight final appearances only 3 years after his departure from Shaq only solidifies my claim.

He was their closer and has his share of dominant performances in key moments of those playoffs runs.

[juju151111]

Shaquille would have won those same MVPs playing with Jordan.
Doubt that Mj stepped his game up in finals. The only good finals Kobe had was against the Nets. The pacers and sixers held him down.

[West-Side]

Doubt that Mj stepped his game up in finals. The only good finals Kobe had was against the Nets. The pacers and sixers held him down.

He stepped on Rose's foot at the beginning of that 2000 NBA finals and was injured the rest of the series.
Against Philly he played great except that 1st game.

Jordan wasn't spectacular against 98's Jazz either bud.
Or against the Sonics in 96'.

But yeah lets just highlight Kobe's struggles because Jordan was invincible. :rolleyes:

And the ironic thing is Kobe only played sub-par because of an injury and one poor game (Game 1 against Philly). He was great for the majority of that Philly series from what I recall.

[West-Side]

Kobe against Sixers.

Game 2: 31/8/6 on 48%
Game 3: 32/6/3 on 43%
Game 4: 19/10/9 on 46%
Game 5: 26/12/6 on 39%

He struggled shooting in game 5, but how exactly did he play bad??

He scored 30+ twice, was an assist short of a triple double and dropped 26/12/6 in an elimination game.

Iverson, who everyone thought played better than Kobe that series shot 44%, 40%, 40% & 35% in his next four games against LA.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Yes.

[KellhitEmup15]

First three-peat Jordan.:rockon:

[Bankaii]

Prime mj would have blocked that weak ass ai crossover. Hell he almost gets to it in time. Ai sucks
Outperformed and roasted Kobe's bitch ass the only time they met outside the RS.
Luckily Shaq was there to save the day.

[Bankaii]

Kobe against Sixers.

Game 2: 31/8/6 on 48%
Game 3: 32/6/3 on 43%
Game 4: 19/10/9 on 46%
Game 5: 26/12/6 on 39%

He struggled shooting in game 5, but how exactly did he play bad??

He scored 30+ twice, was an assist short of a triple double and dropped 26/12/6 in an elimination game.

Iverson, who everyone thought played better than Kobe that series shot 44%, 40%, 40% & 35% in his next four games against LA.
My goodness. One was the focal point and only legit scoring option for his team.
The other was a second option with the MDE teammate getting double and even triple teamed. It's not difficult to understand the difference in the 2 situations.
How many times does this have to be said before Kobe fans understand it.

[SexSymbol]

My goodness. One was the focal point and only legit scoring option for his team.
The other was a second option with the MDE teammate getting double and even triple teamed. It's not difficult to understand the difference in the 2 situations.
How many times does this have to be said before Kobe fans understand it.
How many times does it have to be said that having Shaq in the mid clogs up the lane to the basket which means pretty much no easy baskets for Kobe?

[Bankaii]

How many times does it have to be said that having Shaq in the mid clogs up the lane to the basket which means pretty much no easy baskets for Kobe?
Glad you just confirmed yourself as an idiot.
I'll be sure to keep more of that.

[f0und]

How many times does it have to be said that having Shaq in the mid clogs up the lane to the basket which means pretty much no easy baskets for Kobe?

didnt seem like much of a problem for young wade, who was primarily a slasher.

[SexSymbol]

Glad you just confirmed yourself as an idiot.
I'll be sure to keep more of that.
What a shitty answer. You're weak.
Having a dominant score first rebound second score again third and pass fourth center doesn't help people around him, especially a slash dominant Kobe which he was at the time.
Kobe developed his long range shot to great levels because of this reason and is one of the best shooters ever in part because of this.
You're not cooler if you throw mindless insults at any person without being able to refute anything that they say, remember, atm you are weak.

[KellhitEmup15]

What a shitty answer. You're weak.
Having a dominant score first rebound second score again third and pass fourth center doesn't help people around him, especially a slash dominant Kobe which he was at the time.
Kobe developed his long range shot to great levels because of this reason and is one of the best shooters ever in part because of this.
You're not cooler if you throw mindless insults at any person without being able to refute anything that they say, remember, atm you are weak.

:applause:

[SexSymbol]

didnt seem like much of a problem for young wade, who was primarily a slasher.
Different rules that made room specifically for slash type players, Shaq wasn't the player he was with Kobe.

[Bankaii]

didnt seem like much of a problem for young wade, who was primarily a slasher.
Hey we have someone that's not an idiot.
And this version of Shaq was much slower, less agile, etc.
Great scorers can still score at a high rate with the lane clogged.
It's like a Kobetard would know that his mid range game was still impeccable even when he was Frobe.
Shaq took up lane space hurts but when he's getting doubled and tripled Kobe could have the whole side of the court to himself in ISO, which he excels at.

[SexSymbol]

He stepped on Rose's foot at the beginning of that 2000 NBA finals and was injured the rest of the series.
Against Philly he played great except that 1st game.

Jordan wasn't spectacular against 98's Jazz either bud.
Or against the Sonics in 96'.

But yeah lets just highlight Kobe's struggles because Jordan was invincible. :rolleyes:

And the ironic thing is Kobe only played sub-par because of an injury and one poor game (Game 1 against Philly). He was great for the majority of that Philly series from what I recall.
I disagree with the bolded, while agreeing with everything else you say.
Jordan's G6 is the single greatest performance in NBA history for me

[Bankaii]

What a shitty answer. You're weak.
Having a dominant score first rebound second score again third and pass fourth center doesn't help people around him, especially a slash dominant Kobe which he was at the time.
Kobe developed his long range shot to great levels because of this reason and is one of the best shooters ever in part because of this.
You're not cooler if you throw mindless insults at any person without being able to refute anything that they say, remember, atm you are weak.
Didn't mean to make you so angry there little Jimmy. But whatever, you're an idiot.


Different rules that made room specifically for slash type players, Shaq wasn't the player he was with Kobe.
That rule excuse is lame. And Exactly, he was worse. He got doubled less and couldn't move as fast, which made it even harder or Wade. Thanks for proving me right.
Anyone that hoops knows this, but we both know you don't.

[SexSymbol]

Hey we have someone that's not an idiot.
And this version of Shaq was much slower, less agile, etc.
Great scorers can still score at a high rate with the lane clogged.
It's like a Kobetard would know that his mid range game was still impeccable even when he was Frobe.
Shaq took up lane space hurts but when he's getting doubled and tripled Kobe could have the whole side of the court to himself in ISO, which he excels at.
Triangle offense is meant to create a triangle of players on either side of the court, so by default you'd have shaq or another big guy on one side of the court with the man who has a ball, this is by design. Now what you won't remember or choose not to remember or you haven't seen/heard of this at all is that Phil and Shaq prefered to have Kobe with the ball while Shaq was posting on the same side, as Kobe was easily the best passer on the team and the main catalyst of the offense.
What I'm trying to say by this, is that by design there wasn't many situations for Kobe to go ISO without shaq being in the way, so the only way he could really ISO at any time was by shooting a longe range shot over one defender.
In later years, when the rules changed and Shaq was replaced by a mid-range hitting Pau, Kobe was used more as an ISO type of guy to bail out the team when the triangle wasn't working, so you're probably getting your impression of how the three-peat lakers played by looking at the recent history, but it's wrong, and you are wrong, so by calling me or any kobe fans names you just present yourself as being weak. Which you are.

[SexSymbol]

Didn't mean to make you so angry there little Jimmy. But whatever, you're an idiot.


That rule excuse is lame. And Exactly, he was worse. He got doubled less and couldn't move as fast, which made it even harder or Wade. Thanks for proving me right.
Anyone that hoops knows this, but we both know you don't.
How is the rule excuse lame if it changes the basics of attacking the basket for all teams? please explain, because atm you're just looking weak yet again.
I'm sorry but how does a slasher benefit from another player getting double teamed? Explain this to me please, because you don't seem to know the basics of help defense and double teaming.
Let's picture it like this, a shooter benefits from a teammate being double teamed right? The time that it takes to receive a pass jump up and shoot is usually less than half a second, a second if we're counting the pass going from the doubled teammate to the shooter. So it actually helps a shooter, because his help defender can't get back in such short time. But a slasher doesn't benefit at all, because his course of attack takes much more time to be completed, so teams with good help defenders, people who can get back to their guy in minimal time, which is usually the case with most Finals caliber teams, are able to get back to the slasher and defend him as if it was a normal 1x1 situation.
This is also the case with three-peat lakers, where pre-rule change Shaq clogged up the focking lane and with great defenses out east defenders just could get back to Kobe in a blink of an eye.
Shaq also used to forget to move out of the way when somebody drives to the basket, one of his many flaws in the game. But hey, the guy was dominant.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this again, you're weak.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Huh? If you extend a sample size beyond a few games, there are better scorers than Kobe. Like I said. Peak Kobe is not a better scorer over the course of a month, half season, or season than guys like KAJ, Wilt and Jordan and arguably a couple others.

weird because peak Kobe was able to sustain a level over scoring over an entire month that MJ and KAJ were never able to do

and he did this twice :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[SexSymbol]

bankaii where art thou, could you please prove me being an idiot now?

[raprap]

Kobe stans in this thread. :lol

[Wade's Rings]

He stepped on Rose's foot at the beginning of that 2000 NBA finals and was injured the rest of the series.
Against Philly he played great except that 1st game.

Jordan wasn't spectacular against 98's Jazz either bud.
Or against the Sonics in 96'.

But yeah lets just highlight Kobe's struggles because Jordan was invincible. :rolleyes:

And the ironic thing is Kobe only played sub-par because of an injury and one poor game (Game 1 against Philly). He was great for the majority of that Philly series from what I recall.

You're comparing Prime Kobe to 35 year old MJ :lol

[SwayDizzle]

mid-2000s Bean was without a doubt the greatest scoring machine we have witnessed in the modern era. finally someone emerged who could score better than MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

Depends on if being a great scorer to you is about the points or the ability to score. Its not like Kobe was less capable in 2009 or 2005...than he was in 2003 or 2006. There are always health concerns that might slightly alter potential but when Kobe went crazy in 03 for the first time...its not like he actually got better for a month or two. And 05 Kobe when he was healthy....I gotta think that he could have scored more than he did.

Kobe like many people who are virtually(not literally of course) unstoppable is a massive skillset squeezed into the circumstances. Swap him out for Bird on his Celtics...no way hes scoring 35. Even if the era would have given him more chances...he has too much talent to justify it.

Bird had 40 point halves just to prove a point in 86 and 60 point games just to get the Celtics scoring record back from Mchale who just took it with 57. I dont think him scoring 21-29 a game means thats what he was capable of. Just that its what he did.

Like Hakeem. He was having 21ppg years then in his 30s puts up 33 a game on the way to a title. Not so much better....as focused on scoring with a team that supports it.

Id say Kobes scoring skillset is as complete as anyones.

But he was put in position to show more of it than most others who could be on the same level.

That plus that whole mid 2000s explosion. Past his prime AI puts up 33 a game with 3-4 months in the 34-35 a game range? Lebron 31...Redd and Kevin Martin doing like 26 a game? Arenas 30+ hanging 60 on the Lakers? Pierce and Ray Allen having career years scoring wise as they were at the end of their primes. Kobe on a shitty team scoring 35 doesnt seem that out of place.

Its clearly not by chance all that happened at the same time.

So I throw out most of the numbers on that question.

As I said...skillset wise? Hes as good as ive seen.

But hes not alone on the top of that mountain.

staahhhhp... may be right about 2003, but he actually did it in 2006, at the expense of other aspects... 2009? not close.

[Just2McFly]

I cant really argue against it to be honest. There's a few names that are just godly when it comes to scoring, him, Bron, Jordan, Shaq,Wilt, Baylor, West etc...

[TripleA]

Playoff scoring decides.

[WayOfWade]

mid-2000s Bean was without a doubt the greatest scoring machine we have witnessed in the modern era. finally someone emerged who could score better than MJ.
Ok you're taking this a little too far. Yeah he's definetly in the conversation as one of the greatest scorers of all time, both career and prime wise. But in what way did Kobe ever score better than MJ? MJ averages almost 5 ppg more career wise, has a 2 ppg edge on career high ppg, and his career fg% of 49.7 is higher than Kobe has ever achieved in any season, and he did it against tougher defenses too. He does have a microscopic advantage in 3p%, and a bit of an edge in FT% I'll give you that, but that's it as far as Kobe scoring superiority over MJ.

[TheMarkMadsen]

40 point games

Kobe in 2006 & 2007 = 45


KD in his entire career = 43

Melo in his entire career = 35

Karl Malone in his entire career = 44

T Mac in his entire career = 45

Hakeem in his entire career = 32

Dirk in his entire career = 19

Shaq in his entire career = 49

Lebron in his entire career = 55

Wade in his entire career = 34


Yeah Kobe had a 2 year stretch where he put up a career's worth of breakout scoring performances

[Kblaze8855]

In 2006 alone Kobe had more than double the games taking 30 shots...as Dirk has in his entire career put together. 10 for Dirks career....vs 26 for Kobes season. He had about 40% as many as Tmac had in his entire career. Shaq only had 13 in 18 years. Karl Malone had 9 in 19 years. Bron has 30 in his career...to Kobes 26 in one season. Hakeem 24 in his career.

The often accused of being a chucker Melo...he only has 26 30 shot games in his life. To match Kobes total from 06 alone.

Why shouldnt Kobe match peoples career totals in two years when in one year he took a careers worth of high shot attempt games?

Another reason why the final numbers cant be the only thing we look at.

Kobes skill say more to me than his point totals.

Guys like Bird, Gervin, Drob, and Thompson showed they could score 60 and in some cases 70 when someone just told them to go do it. David Thompson had 52 in the first half on like 90% shooting and didnt go for 100 because he felt selfish...even though his team wanted him to do it to win the scoring title.

Guys on that level can go off damn near at will. Kobe was asked to do it.

Its a testament to his talent that he could do it. But it doesnt mean we should marginalize others who didnt get that ultimate green light.

He and Iverson...and to be fair Jordan and maybe Gervin? Dudes had an opportunity few scorers on their level ever get. To just...go off at will every night no questions asked.

Its fair to point it out.

[TheBigVeto]

No

[TheMarkMadsen]

if you're going to down play Kobe's out burst because of his 30 FGA games then you might as well downplay Jordan's entire career of scoring outburst seeing as he has 130 games of 30+ FGA which is obviously more than anybody in NBA history

why shouldn't Jordan have the most 40, 50, 60 points games when has more 30+ FGA games than T Mac, bran, Wade and Shaq combined

there have been plenty of players that had the green light for a year or two, nobody besides Jordan and Wilt has matched that type of scoring outburst though

there's a reason that one of the GOAT coaches trust guys like Kobe and Jordan to take 30 shots in a game, or average 23+ in the playoffs while winning the title..

[Kblaze8855]

You say that like you think id have a problem with it. I mentioned Jordan didnt I?

Its just common sense. We cant act like its coincidence. And comparing some of the guys you mentioned....the dirks and Malones?

These guys had less 30 shot games their careers than Jordan, Kobe, and Iverson had in a month.

Comparing the number of outbursts just doesnt seem fair.

I dont care for Karl Malone...but he did have a 60 point game in like 30 minutes on I think 21-26 shooting...just because they announced before the game that AC Green made the ASG over him.

I cant sit here and honestly say his number of 40 point games is a fair way to judge his scoring when he just wasnt trying to do it on a regular basis.


Its not useless information...but its just trivia to me.

I dont care how many 40 point games Dirk has had when hes only taken 30 shots 10 times in 18 years.

Clearly he wasnt going for big scoring nights so why should I judge him for a lack of them?

[TheMarkMadsen]

You say that like you think id have a problem with it. I mentioned Jordan didnt I?

Its just common sense. We cant act like its coincidence. And comparing some of the guys you mentioned....the dirks and Malones?

These guys had less 30 shot games their careers than Jordan, Kobe, and Iverson had in a month.

Comparing the number of outbursts just doesnt seem fair.

I dont care for Karl Malone...but he did have a 60 point game in like 30 minutes on I think 21-26 shooting...just because they announced before the game that AC Green made the ASG over him.

I cant sit here and honestly say his number of 40 point games is a fair way to judge his scoring when he just wasnt trying to do it on a regular basis.


Its not useless information...but its just trivia to me.

I dont care how many 40 point games Dirk has had when hes only taken 30 shots 10 times in 20 years.

Clearly he wasnt going for big scoring nights so why should I judge him for a lack of them?


you say this type of stuff as if he could have replicated numerous times if given a chance

there's a reason that guys like Dirk and Malone don't take 30 shots per game, they don't have the ability to consistently get themselves that many decent looks while converting at a efficient rate while still playing winning basketball..

when talking about GOAT scorers, then scoring outburst are very important, it's silly to downplay it when only 3 guys in the history of NBA have been able to do this, who just happen to be 3 of the best scorers of all time, they were able to do it while not killing their team,

i'm sure that if Phil Jackson had a problem with it he would have pulled them, but no, there were nights when arguably the greatest coach in NBA history decided he needed MJ and Kobe to shoot 30+ times in order to give his team the best chance at winning.. and that speaks volumes.. when discussing the GOAT scorers

[f0und]

How is the rule excuse lame if it changes the basics of attacking the basket for all teams? please explain, because atm you're just looking weak yet again.
I'm sorry but how does a slasher benefit from another player getting double teamed? Explain this to me please, because you don't seem to know the basics of help defense and double teaming.
Let's picture it like this, a shooter benefits from a teammate being double teamed right? The time that it takes to receive a pass jump up and shoot is usually less than half a second, a second if we're counting the pass going from the doubled teammate to the shooter. So it actually helps a shooter, because his help defender can't get back in such short time. But a slasher doesn't benefit at all, because his course of attack takes much more time to be completed, so teams with good help defenders, people who can get back to their guy in minimal time, which is usually the case with most Finals caliber teams, are able to get back to the slasher and defend him as if it was a normal 1x1 situation.
This is also the case with three-peat lakers, where pre-rule change Shaq clogged up the focking lane and with great defenses out east defenders just could get back to Kobe in a blink of an eye.
Shaq also used to forget to move out of the way when somebody drives to the basket, one of his many flaws in the game. But hey, the guy was dominant.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this again, you're weak.


so if shaq was clogging up the lane while he was there, why didnt kobe attack more when shaq left? and if wade was able to attack more because of "rule changes", why didnt kobe take advantage of the rule changes also that year? and for your information, those rule changes happened in 2001.

and what about the '04 finals? there was no double teaming going on. no zone. shaq was played straight up by ben. and kobe by prince. yet kobe got completely embarassed by one defender with no clogged lanes. fast forward one year later. detroit has the same team(players, coaches, etc.), same gameplan, except shaq is in miami and kobe is replaced with wade. wade had much more success against prince than kobe did and wouldve won them the series had he not gotten hurt. why was wade able to attack and get easier baskets?

[LoneyROY7]

Yes he was...Imagine if Twitter and IG was back then as it is now when Kobe was scoring like he was?...Imagine seeing any player today scoring 50pts in 4 straight games? The media would be going insane.

Imagine a player today scoring 63pts in 3 quarters vs the Eventual champions?

I remember when Bron almost got that 50pt triple double vs Knicks and posters saying "Kobe could never score 50 and still have an all-round game, HAHA"...Then you realize this hater never watched NBA past LeBron cause we all then remember Kobe dropping 53pts 10reb 8ast vs Shane Battier and the Rockets.

Kobe was the greatest scorer the NBA has ever seen after Wilt. And Wilt played in a pusse era and he was stealing his teammates shots with Offensive Basket interferences. Kobe the GOAT in scoring....Just his playing too soon with the 7ppg Rookie year off the bench and that next low scoring first year f*cked his Points PER GAME avg up, but being 3rd All-Time in total points more than Jordan is fine by me.

It was 62 points and the 2005-2006 Mavericks weren't the champions.

[BigNBAfan]

kobe's fga came with no second option, atleast jordan had pippen during his 30fga reign.

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe wasn't paying winning ball playing that way. Jordan closer....but most of that was early pre winning Jordan. Same for wilt who started winning as he stopped shooting. Garvin never won. Iverson had a season of very good winning but he like most of these guys was gunning on team that justified it and would never win anyway.


I have little doubt that Dirk could shoot a lot and win 40 games. So I'm not even sure how you have that as a reason they couldn't do it. Why consider if they could do it and win when Kobe, Jordan, wilt, Gervin, Iverson, and so on we're not winning when they were setting all these records?

Dirk and Karl Malone we're pretty consistently successful in their careers. They had no reason to push the scoring like this but they certainly had it in them. Hell I believe Karl was scoring like 34 game for a month or two back in the eighty's.

not being able to get shots is true of a lot of role players but we aren't talking about some average player. These other guys scored 25-30 thousand points in the NBA. They could get shots if they chose to do it. Even Malone who I argued long and hard wasn't as great as his totals suggest.

[Wade's Rings]

so if shaq was clogging up the lane while he was there, why didnt kobe attack more when shaq left? and if wade was able to attack more because of "rule changes", why didnt kobe take advantage of the rule changes also that year? and for your information, those rule changes happened in 2001.

and what about the '04 finals? there was no double teaming going on. no zone. shaq was played straight up by ben. and kobe by prince. yet kobe got completely embarassed by one defender with no clogged lanes. fast forward one year later. detroit has the same team(players, coaches, etc.), same gameplan, except shaq is in miami and kobe is replaced with wade. wade had much more success against prince than kobe did and wouldve won them the series had he not gotten hurt. why was wade able to attack and get easier baskets?

:lebronamazed:

[Wade's Rings]

kobe's fga came with no second option, atleast jordan had pippen during his 30fga reign.

Is this a good or bad thing?

[f0und]

if kobe is up at the top of elite scorers in history, why is his career high only 46.9%? you would think he would at least have one season of insane efficiency AND volume. every other alltime great scorer have multiple seasons of great efficiency but why not kobe?

fact is, being a great scorer is not just about point totals, but also about efficiency and consistency on a nightly basis.

[Kblaze8855]

And Dirk?

Dirk in his prime could get as many shots as he set out to get. Dirk doesnt need a good look. Dirk doesnt have to be open.

Guys like him(and Kobe) who can take and make contested midrange jumpers never struggle to get a shot.

Dirk and Kobe are tough shot makers.

You cant easily prevent tough shot makers from getting looks because they flourish taking the kinds of shots you will concede.


You dont really keep him from getting these looks:


http://fat.gfycat.com/UltimateNextBlackfootedferret.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2514605/dirk-nowitzki-o.gif


http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llopncZYy31qk2ix2o1_250.gif


You just hope he misses.

[tpols]

yea dirk could do it if he wanted.. too unselfish to even attempt, but karl couldn't.


It's like bron saying if you gave him 30 shots hed score 60.. but we saw he could only get 35. Bron/Karl can get you 30 points on 19 shots.. but the more you increase their shot attempts the more their efficiency exponentially decreases because of a lack of versatility.. Kobes might linearly decrease or might not decrease at all.. I can see kobe doing 55TS on 19 or 28 shots.

Dirk though, he could probably do it aside from some durability issues

[Kblaze8855]

Karl Malone averaged 33 and 34ppg for a couple months at one point. He put up 32ppg after the all star break one year on only 21 shots a game. The month he had that 60 after the ASG starter spot went to AC...he also had games of 52, 48, 42, and 40 points.

You should know im not a fan...but Karl Malone isnt the second all time leading scorer just off longevity.

If he wanted to....hes a well over 30ppg scorer in his day. He put up like 28-29 a game for 5-6 years. He was the second leading scorer to Jordan I think 4 times.

Part of it was being in the 80s west...but he was still doing 26 a game in 2000.

He was doing all that scoring within the confines of playing winning ball.

I hate to be in the position of defending him...but I saw no evidence he couldnt have stacked serious ppg numbers for years.

He wouldnt have been as great a scorer as it would have seemed...but thats the whole point.

The ppg...is not the same as scoring ability.

[f0und]

yea dirk could do it if he wanted.. too unselfish to even attempt, but karl couldn't.


It's like bron saying if you gave him 30 shots hed score 60.. but we saw he could only get 35. Bron/Karl can get you 30 points on 19 shots.. but the more you increase their shot attempts the more their efficiency exponentially decreases because of a lack of versatility.. Kobes might linearly decrease or might not decrease at all.. I can see kobe doing 55TS on 19 or 28 shots.

Dirk though, he could probably do it aside from some durability issues

yeah but that was one game. and it was in the finals against an elite defense. kobe has had entire seasons of free reign shooting and willingness to shoot as many times as he liked. in that span he put up some great shooting performances, but also some absolutely *hit shooting too.

[Kblaze8855]

In the games Lebron took 30 shots vs the Warriors he had 44, 39, 40, 40 and 32. The series average is reduced by a 22 shot game so the 36 isnt really what he does taking 30 shots. In those games in the finals he put up 39ppg. For his career in 30 shot attempt games....39.8ppg.

Which sounds about right. Great scorers tend to put up 7-10more ppg than their shot attempts.

[tpols]

yeah but that was one game. and it was in the finals against an elite defense. kobe has had entire seasons of free reign shooting and willingness to shoot as many times as he liked. in that span he put up some great shooting performances, but also some absolutely *hit shooting too.

it wasn't one game.. it was six. But anyways the point is if bron has to do 30 shots a game over an extended period of time? It's not going to work well for him.. he can get ridiculous efficiency on 15-20 shots a game because he knows how to pick his spots and balance his own scoring with passing to teammates to produce great offensive efficiency. Kobe isn't quite as good at the passing but if you need him to load up on shots he can do it much better than bron can...

I think that's the point.. kblaze acts like any 25+ppg scorer can go off for 40ppg months if they wanted to but its just not true.

[Kblaze8855]

If I thought anyone could do it id say that. I think guys who prove they are capable of absurd outbursts and sustained runs in the 30s are capable of it given the unlimited green light and no choice but to carry a team.

Im not talking Ron Mercer.

Im talking the top scorers in history.

Kevin Martin is not Dirk, Karl Malone, Nique, David thompson, Larry Bird, or George Gervin. Gervin put up 37ppg for like 3 months one year. Nique 36-38ppg multiple months.

Kobe on a talented team his entire career people are in this very topic talking about what he could do given the chance. And id be one of them.

Kobe is gonna play 20 years and score over 30 in 2 of them. He certainly didnt get more talented for 2 years.

Sometimes you have to go all out in a bad situation...sometimes you dont.

Guys like Kobe, Pistol Pete, Mcadoo, Gervin, and others....sometimes you score 25 a game. Sometimes you score 35 a game for 2-3 months. Pistol Pete wasnt more capable while hes doing 34 a game the back half of 77 than when hes a 21ppg player a different year. It not being required every season on every team doesnt mean you cant. It just means the circumstances didnt line up and they didnt have to force the issue.

Guys dont get 7-10ppg more talented mid career. They can sure put up 7-10 more ppg though.

And the best of the best...can do some pretty wild shit

Kobe is one of the best of the best.

But he isnt the only one. And as I said earlier...his explosion coincided with a lot of other unusual scoring outbursts. And we cant just act like its coincidence. All the top swingmen didnt have career scoring years by chance. Didnt they have the most 30ppg scorers the league had in a single season since 1962? Eleven 25ppg scorers. 2 years earlier 24ppg was #2.

The league was adjusting to the new rules/styles of play. Perfect storm for a monster talent to go off.

And Kobe did.

If he had more talent on those team he wouldnt be any worse a scorer.

Hed just have scored less points.

[Bankaii]

bankaii where art thou, could you please prove me being an idiot now?
Right here buttercup. Unlike you, I'm a college student and have a life, I can't spend all day on here educating idiots like you.

Let's get into your stupidity, shall we?
Your post are too long for me to give the energy to breakdown, so I'll generally address it.

You're main argument was that Shaq clogged the lane which affected Kobe's scoring. This is horribly wrong.
Look at the stats, Kobe had his most dunk attempts and makes, highest FG% around the rim, and most shot attempts around the rim for his career during the Shaq era. If Shaq was making things so clustered, why was Kobe having his best and most effecient slashing years while Shaq was there.
It's also important to note that Kobe attempted the most 3s and long range shots the year after Shaq left and 06(his scoring peak). If he no longer had Shaq clogging the lane, why would he start settling for more long balls if it's easier to drive without Shaq?

Second, the rule change thing was bullshit. What year was it implemented. I'm not 100% sure but I think it happened before Shaq and Kobe broke up, meaning Kobe still had years post-rule with Shaq to drive as DWade did.
If DWade could drop 30+ ppg in the Finals with a worse, less attention drawing, slower Shaq, why couldn't Kobe be just as dominant with a prime, double/triple teamed, quick Shaq?
Even with the triangle, Shaq always preferred the low post, Kobe still had the elbow and just inside the paint to work. Not even including the fact that Shaq is an all time great passer which got Kobe even more easy looks.
Kobe was known as a slasher in the Shaq era, and became more versatile after he left, why do you think that is?

I didn't want to do this to you, you made me. I don't even like long posts like this because they're boring.
And stop calling me weak, it's mean and wrong. Post a vid of you playing ball before you talk.
IDIOT

[Round Mound]

Not even close. Great players score at over 50% FG. You could say Kobe was one of the most skilled and dynamic scorers but his efficiency is ver low compared to other greats.

[sportjames23]

I just don't understand how Kobe only has 2 scoring titles.

[Kblaze8855]

Great scorers shoot 50%? I'd bet my life you couldn't find one person to actually shoot 50 percent while scoring well who doesn't think Kobe is a great scorer and player because he didn't.

That kind of shit is a complete fan fabrication that not one person involved in the game believes.

[sportjames23]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=iversal01&p2=jordami01

Iverson routinely destroyed MJ. 32, 37, 44, etc. and he was doing that on actually decent efficiency. This is coming from someone who HATES AI, BTW.


Um, you know MJ rarely guarded Iverson, right?

[Bankaii]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2mi5v.gif
Um, you know MJ rarely guarded Iverson, right?
I wouldn't want to either after AI took that nig*a ice skating.

[triangleoffense]

Lebron tards going full meltdown in this thread.

[GimmeThat]

I think if we were to talk about the attributes of a finals MVP player

it's probably more so to do with recognizing the differences at each match up, making the most accurate calls in summation, despite to what the coaching staff had presented to the players pre-game, pre-series.


as for him being the greatest scorer,

you can only really say that, Lakers basketball (or for the very brief period of what I had known with the Dr. Buss era basketball) has always played with having multiple players sharing the same role/responsibilities. Even when at different pay scale.



Edit: oh right, Andre Iguodala won a FMVP

[SexSymbol]

Right here buttercup. Unlike you, I'm a college student and have a life, I can't spend all day on here educating idiots like you.

Let's get into your stupidity, shall we?
Your post are too long for me to give the energy to breakdown, so I'll generally address it.

You're main argument was that Shaq clogged the lane which affected Kobe's scoring. This is horribly wrong.
Look at the stats, Kobe had his most dunk attempts and makes, highest FG% around the rim, and most shot attempts around the rim for his career during the Shaq era. If Shaq was making things so clustered, why was Kobe having his best and most effecient slashing years while Shaq was there.
It's also important to note that Kobe attempted the most 3s and long range shots the year after Shaq left and 06(his scoring peak). If he no longer had Shaq clogging the lane, why would he start settling for more long balls if it's easier to drive without Shaq?

Second, the rule change thing was bullshit. What year was it implemented. I'm not 100% sure but I think it happened before Shaq and Kobe broke up, meaning Kobe still had years post-rule with Shaq to drive as DWade did.
If DWade could drop 30+ ppg in the Finals with a worse, less attention drawing, slower Shaq, why couldn't Kobe be just as dominant with a prime, double/triple teamed, quick Shaq?
Even with the triangle, Shaq always preferred the low post, Kobe still had the elbow and just inside the paint to work. Not even including the fact that Shaq is an all time great passer which got Kobe even more easy looks.
Kobe was known as a slasher in the Shaq era, and became more versatile after he left, why do you think that is?

I didn't want to do this to you, you made me. I don't even like long posts like this because they're boring.
And stop calling me weak, it's mean and wrong. Post a vid of you playing ball before you talk.
IDIOT
Because of his absolute physical peak? He was mainly a slasher back then, he developed into an amazing shooter in his later years and stayed that way.
And did you just call Shaq an all-time great passer? Have you even seen guys like Kareem and Sabonis passing? Shaq only passed out of double teams to a guy close to him, he had tunnel vision.
The rule change was implemented in 04-05, after shaq and Kobe broke up. Wade was able to go off because Shaq took a back seat, something he wasn't ever ready to do with Kobe, also no triangle and obviously the rule change.

[Dragonyeuw]

2006 was an anomaly really, not taking anything away from Kobe's year because the scoring displays he put on( moreso the skills shown than the point totals) are legendary. It was a transitional season where a number of players experienced career years, not just Kobe. Not just piggybacking off Kblaze because I've argued this myself before but take a hapless Lakers squad, a prime Kobe with a greenlight to shoot at will, and a season where teams were adjusting to the new perimeter rules and you'll get a 35 ppg season from someone of Kobe's considerable scoring ability. But then, notice that a season later his scoring dropped 4 points? Why? Did he get worse as a player or scorer? Obviously not. Or had the league adjusted to the new rules and scoring as a result suitably dipped to more normal levels? Because except for Wade, none of the top 5 scorers in 2006 came close to exceeding or ever duplicating their scoring again. In fact most of the guys in the top ten that year, including Dirk and Pierce, never hit their 2006 scoring marks again. Some of it was due to circumstances( change in team personnel requiring less scoring output), but a portion of that has to be that the league adjusted to the new perimeter rules.

-30 year old Allen Iverson, a player whose game was based on youth and blinding speed, averaging a career high 33 ppg after 10 years in the league, on a percentage well above the norm for him.

-Lebron averaged over 31 ppg, at a point when his offensive game was still relatively raw and developing. He never came close to that mark again, even during what is considered his peak between 2009 and 2013.

- Arenas skyrocketed from 25 to 29 ppg. That's almost like two separate category of scorer in the normal sense. You're going from great to prolific at that point.

- The 10th leading scorer that year was Ray Allen at 25ppg. Think about that, you had to go 10 players deep before you got to a player averaging less than 25. People talk about pace often, but even the year when MJ scored 37 in the run and gun 80's, the 10th leading scorer that year was Magic at 23.9, more than a point behind Allen in 2006.

- The top 10 scorers were all perimeter-oriented players including Dirk, the lone player who wasn't a guard or SF position-wise.

- How does a 31 year old Steve Nash go from an all-star to an MVP level player, at an age when most top tier PGs start slowing down, not getting better?!

Too many anomalies happened that season that can't merely be discounted as coincidental. And again, that's not to take away from what those players did, because I repeat that in terms of the skills shown, Kobe that season was on a level that has only been duplicated by a select few. But too many players in 2006 peaked with career seasons or reached levels of play at a stage ( like Iverson and Nash) that bucks conventional and historic trends.

[SexSymbol]

2006 was an anomaly really, not taking anything away from Kobe's year because the scoring displays he put on( moreso the skills shown than the point totals) are legendary. It was a transitional season where a number of players experienced career years, not just Kobe. Not just piggybacking off Kblaze because I've argued this myself before but take a hapless Lakers squad, a prime Kobe with a greenlight to shoot at will, and a season where teams were adjusting to the new perimeter rules and you'll get a 35 ppg season from someone of Kobe's considerable scoring ability. But then, notice that a season later his scoring dropped 4 points? Why? Did he get worse as a player or scorer? Obviously not. Or had the league adjusted to the new rules and scoring as a result suitably dipped to more normal levels? Because except for Wade, none of the top 5 scorers in 2006 came close to exceeding or ever duplicating their scoring again. In fact most of the guys in the top ten that year, including Dirk and Pierce, never hit their 2006 scoring marks again. Some of it was due to circumstances( change in team personnel requiring less scoring output), but a portion of that has to be that the league adjusted to the new perimeter rules.

-30 year old Allen Iverson, a player whose game was based on youth and blinding speed, averaging a career high 33 ppg after 10 years in the league, on a percentage well above the norm for him.

-Lebron averaged over 31 ppg, at a point when his offensive game was still relatively raw and developing. He never came close to that mark again, even during what is considered his peak between 2009 and 2013.

- Arenas skyrocketed from 25 to 29 ppg. That's almost like two separate category of scorer in the normal sense. You're going from great to prolific at that point.

- The 10th leading scorer that year was Ray Allen at 25ppg. Think about that, you had to go 10 players deep before you got to a player averaging less than 25. People talk about pace often, but even the year when MJ scored 37 in the run and gun 80's, the 10th leading scorer that year was Magic at 23.9, more than a point behind Allen in 2006.

- The top 10 scorers were all perimeter-oriented players including Dirk, the lone player who wasn't a guard or SF position-wise.

- How does a 31 year old Steve Nash go from an all-star to an MVP level player, at an age when most top tier PGs start slowing down, not getting better?!

Too many anomalies happened that season that can't merely be discounted as coincidental. And again, that's not to take away from what those players did, because I repeat that in terms of the skills shown, Kobe that season was on a level that has only been duplicated by a select few. But too many players in 2006 peaked with career seasons or reached levels of play at a stage ( like Iverson and Nash) that bucks conventional and historic trends.
I could say that Kobe suffered an Injury in 07. He had more 50 point games in 07 than the year prior, that season is just as impressive as 06

[BoutPractice]

It's true that Kobe was "given the opportunity".

But there aren't many players, even great players, who, given the opportunity, would have actually gone all the way to 81… most of them wouldn't have even tried if they'd been that hot. They would've stopped at some point, but Kobe just kept going. He kept wanting to score (needing perhaps) AND kept making enough of them.

Think of another all-time great scoring talent in a rare opportunity. Say, Durant with Westbrook injured. In that situation he'll score 40 more often than not. 50, from time to time. Maybe the odd 60 point game. But would he ever reach 80+ in 4 quarters? Maybe I'll be proven wrong one day, but I just can't see it.

And yes, I'm aware of David Robinson. But in a way Robinson furthers my point, because he was pushing himself to the max just to reach a specific total. Plus he had help, whereas Kobe just willed it… it's not like his teammates told him before the game "we're going to get you to 80".

[Dragonyeuw]

Iverson is one of the greatest volume scorers ever man.. even baby iverson was putting up 27 ppg in the 90s, while making your boy MJ look like a downright fool


https://31.media.tumblr.com/67d4be367ef82133d6bbac294885cc95/tumblr_nqf4tpY15I1sps56eo1_400.gif


:eek:

There's a few vids out there of a 20 year old Kobe getting crossed over by Iverson, who athletically should better be able to keep up with Iverson. Or Kyrie crossing the shit out of Kobe in Olympic workouts.

Hell, here's a vid of some scrub crossing Kobe during the FIBA games in 2007:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj28VvPsjHk

Arenas making Kobe look silly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgZ1LUWCAJM

How many times was Kobe embarrassed by Arenas in this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2XO28YRYU

Moral of the story is that it happens to the best of em.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk and LeBron are both more reliable and effective playoff scorers... basically against any filter you want.

It's always "but Kobe's scoring will hold up better against blah blah blah..."... and then we actually look at their playoff scoring, finals, v.s. top 10 defenses, game 7's, elimination games, closeout games, crunchtime, last second shots, and every single time, LeBron scores more, on less shots... and its still "but Kobe has the moves! but Kobe has the footwork! Kobe's will be more applicable when this and this happens!", yet, it's never been that way, ever.

[Dragonyeuw]

I could say that Kobe suffered an Injury in 07. He had more 50 point games in 07 than the year prior, that season is just as impressive as 06

Which doesn't address that 2006 was still an anomaly in terms of perimeter scoring, for the reasons stated above.

[Dragonyeuw]

It's true that Kobe was "given the opportunity".

But there aren't many players, even great players, who, given the opportunity, would have actually gone all the way to 81… most of them wouldn't have even tried if they'd been that hot. They would've stopped at some point, but Kobe just kept going. He kept wanting to score (needing perhaps) AND kept making enough of them.



For the 81 point game, Kobe had 72 with about 5 minutes left, and the Lakers up by like 10-12 points. Note that by that point, the outcome of the game wasn't of real importance to anybody. It had become the novelty of seeing exactly how much he would/could score, and he obliged by literally shooting on every possession until he was eventually pulled.

So, did the Lakers need all 81 points from him? I would say not, because he had already broken the Raptor's spirit with like 5 mins left and he could have hung around, facilitated and acted like a decoy until about a minute to go. But yeah, Kobe could have continued pushing his personal point total had they not taken him out, not because it was 'needed', but because he could and everyone was feeding into it at the end. Could he have reached 85, or 90? Absolutely.

Personally, Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters against Dallas who made the finals that year, in terms of quality of competition, impresses me more than his 81 point game. The same way I view 2nd year MJ's 63 in the playoffs against a GOAT caliber Boston squad, or his 69 and 18 against a Cavs team considerably better than the 2006 Raptors, as more impressive in the context of the quality of opposition. Similarly, David Robinson scoring 71 points on a pathetic Clippers squad *expressly* to win the scoring title doesn't register as especially impressive. Context and circumstance needs to play a role in all these situations when measuring and comparing performances.

[ClipperRevival]

At his peak as a perimeter scorer and when he was on? Yes, I don't have anyone giving him the slight nod over MJ because Kobe could get real hot from deep and the points would pile up quickly. And he proved it with the 81 and 62 and 4 straight games of 50+ or the 13 straight games of 40+.

[ClipperRevival]

For the 81 point game, Kobe had 72 with about 5 minutes left, and the Lakers up by like 10-12 points. Note that by that point, the outcome of the game wasn't of real importance to anybody. It had become the novelty of seeing exactly how much he would/could score, and he obliged by literally shooting on every possession until he was eventually pulled.

So, did the Lakers need all 81 points from him? I would say not, because he had already broken the Raptor's spirit with like 5 mins left and he could have hung around, facilitated and acted like a decoy until about a minute to go. But yeah, Kobe could have continued pushing his personal point total had they not taken him out, not because it was 'needed', but because he could and everyone was feeding into it at the end. Could he have reached 85, or 90? Absolutely.

Personally, Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters against Dallas who made the finals that year, in terms of quality of competition, impresses me more than his 81 point game. The same way I view 2nd year MJ's 63 in the playoffs against a GOAT caliber Boston squad, or his 69 and 18 against a Cavs team considerably better than the 2006 Raptors, as more impressive in the context of the quality of opposition. Similarly, David Robinson scoring 71 points on a pathetic Clippers squad *expressly* to win the scoring title doesn't register as especially impressive. Context and circumstance needs to play a role in all these situations when measuring and comparing performances.

I saw the 81 point game live. The Lakers were down 15 at half time. What made that game special was most of his points came within the flow of the game. It's not like he was trying to just jack up shots. They just happened. Sure, in the 3rd when he felt it, he really just rode it but to me, that game was so special because it happened within the flow of the game.

But you're right, he couldn't probably stopped at around 72 with a few minutes left but when you have that many points, might as well ride it a bit.

[Bankaii]

Because of his absolute physical peak? He was mainly a slasher back then, he developed into an amazing shooter in his later years and stayed that way.
And did you just call Shaq an all-time great passer? Have you even seen guys like Kareem and Sabonis passing? Shaq only passed out of double teams to a guy close to him, he had tunnel vision.
The rule change was implemented in 04-05, after shaq and Kobe broke up. Wade was able to go off because Shaq took a back seat, something he wasn't ever ready to do with Kobe, also no triangle and obviously the rule change.
Dude you're destroying yourself.
Even if it was his physical peak, 06 Kobe was his peak as a player, his decision making, first step, IQ, etc were better on top of his still great athleticism.
Just like you said, 2000-03 are know as his slasher years, WHILE Shaq was there.
You can't explain why he quit slashing, dunking, settled for long shots, etc because the logical answer is Shaq.
For instance, both Lebron and MJ both were still the same slashers after their physical peak, because they adapted.
Kobe was used to Shaq drawing attention, when Shaq left it became harder to drive as the stats prove.

I appreciate you giving legit responses instead of trolling, but I won't this one. Peace dude.

[raprap]

Kobe getting exposed in this thread! :eek:

Drops to #14 in my ATG list :eek:

[West-Side]

Dude you're destroying yourself.
Even if it was his physical peak, 06 Kobe was his peak as a player, his decision making, first step, IQ, etc were better on top of his still great athleticism.
Just like you said, 2000-03 are know as his slasher years, WHILE Shaq was there.
You can't explain why he quit slashing, dunking, settled for long shots, etc because the logical answer is Shaq.
For instance, both Lebron and MJ both were still the same slashers after their physical peak, because they adapted.
Kobe was used to Shaq drawing attention, when Shaq left it became harder to drive as the stats prove.

I appreciate you giving legit responses instead of trolling, but I won't this one. Peace dude.

This doesn't even make sense.
Kobe drove a lot more with Shaq because he was at his best athletically those years. Shaquille clogged the lanes and demanded double teams; so the paint was clogged all the time, why would Kobe try to drive inside???

Kobe developed his mid-range game over the years, it's really that simple. His work ethic is second to none, so that shouldn't really be all that shocking.

The lanes when Kobe played with Shaq were highly congested, however, Kobe drove a lot more because of his athleticism.

Shaquille demanded attention but it didn't make it easier for Kobe to drive inside, it actually made it harder. It made it easier for players to take uncontested jumpers from the perimeter. That was how Phil Jackson used Shaquille; everything had to go inside to outside.

Not because it opened up the paint but because it created space on the perimeter.

[Dragonyeuw]

I saw the 81 point game live. The Lakers were down 15 at half time. What made that game special was most of his points came within the flow of the game. It's not like he was trying to just jack up shots. They just happened. Sure, in the 3rd when he felt it, he really just rode it but to me, that game was so special because it happened within the flow of the game.

But you're right, he couldn't probably stopped at around 72 with a few minutes left but when you have that many points, might as well ride it a bit.

I saw the game as it happened too( not live) and I recall that for 3 quarters, it was mostly in the flow of things. That's why I say after about 72( still a ridiculous number) the game was out of reach for the Raptors at that point. The last 5 mins of that game was literally get the ball to Kobe and let him shoot, even after they were comfortably well ahead.

[ClipperRevival]

I saw the game as it happened too( not live) and I recall that for 3 quarters, it was mostly in the flow of things. That's why I say after about 72( still a ridiculous number) the game was out of reach for the Raptors at that point. The last 5 mins of that game was literally get the ball to Kobe and let him shoot, even after they were comfortably well ahead.

I saw it live, as it happened and like I said, the team needed most of his points. And yeah, like you said, maybe he could've stopped at around 72ish with a few minutes left but when you have THAT many points, I don't see a problem with him trying to add on a bit.

It was a truly special game. I don't consider the opposition THAT much. Of course I do but it's not the be all, end all. If you can do it at the NBA level, it's still special. If it wasn't, another wing player would've done it.

[ClipperRevival]

And let me clarify, I am not saying Kobe was the best scorer over a career or the most efficient because he clearly wasn't. All I am saying is that at his peak, at his best when hitting on all cylinders, he might be the most explosive wing scorer ever. His ability to get hot from 3 gives him the slight nod over MJ for me.

But MJ pretty much gets the nod every where else. Career, efficiency, consistency, playoff scoring, etc. On a play by play, game by game, year by year basis, MJ was just better. The numbers prove it. But in terms of absolute peak when hitting on all cylinders? Give Kobe a slight nod.

Yes, it's called being objective my friends. You should try it. :D

[Dragonyeuw]

I saw it live, as it happened and like I said, the team needed most of his points. And yeah, like you said, maybe he could've stopped at around 72ish with a few minutes left but when you have THAT many points, I don't see a problem with him trying to add on a bit.

It was a truly special game. I don't consider the opposition THAT much. Of course I do but it's not the be all, end all. If you can do it at the NBA level, it's still special. If it wasn't, another wing player would've done it.

I think most people in the same situation would push it, so I don't have a problem either though it's not above being mentioned. Contrast that to MJ's 69 point game( albeit in overtime) , the Bulls needed just about all those points, it wasn't a matter of 'how much can MJ score' as the Bulls barely won that game. It's not as if he had 60 with 5 minutes left and the Bulls up by 12.

[Dragonyeuw]

But MJ pretty much gets the nod every where else. Career, efficiency, consistency, playoff scoring, etc. On a play by play, game by game, year by year basis, MJ was just better. The numbers prove it. But in terms of absolute peak when hitting on all cylinders? Give Kobe a slight nod.



I'd agree with that. The major difference is Kobe's ability to get hot from deep. Many of MJ's biggest scoring games didn't have the 3 pointer as a major factor, contrast to Kobe where he can ring off 5-6 3's in a row when hot. The potential to rake up points in a hurry, due to that streak 3 point shooting, as well as Kobe's absolute zero conscience about the types of shots he takes, made him more unpredictable and explosive. I.E when MJ scored 64 against Orlando, he was 1 out of 5 on 3's. Kobe's 81 featured 7 3's out of 13 taken. That stat right there symbolizes the difference in a nutshell.

MJ, even when hot, still pretty much plays the same in terms of the shots he takes, as well as how he played off his teammates. Kobe was more unpredictable in that he would suddenly get hot and then it was lights out, just an offensive onslaught. Typically, he's not going to fire up double digit 3 pointers except when he's hot.

[ClipperRevival]

I'd agree with that. The major difference is Kobe's ability to get hot from deep. Many of MJ's biggest scoring games didn't have the 3 pointer as a major factor, contrast to Kobe where he can ring off 5-6 3's in a row when hot. The potential to rake up points in a hurry, due to that streak 3 point shooting, as well as Kobe's absolute zero conscience about the types of shots he takes, made him more unpredictable and explosive. I.E when MJ scored 64 against Orlando, he was 1 out of 5 on 3's. Kobe's 81 featured 7 3's out of 13 taken. That stat right there symbolizes the difference in a nutshell.

MJ, even when hot, still pretty much plays the same in terms of the shots he takes, as well as how he played off his teammates. Kobe was more unpredictable in that he would suddenly get hot and then it was lights out, just an offensive onslaught. Typically, he's not going to fire up double digit 3 pointers except when he's hot.

Exactly!

[Bankaii]

This doesn't even make sense.
Kobe drove a lot more with Shaq because he was at his best athletically those years.
I already addressed and proved this point wrong. Go back to older posts.

[AlphaWolf24]

I'd agree with that. The major difference is Kobe's ability to get hot from deep. Many of MJ's biggest scoring games didn't have the 3 pointer as a major factor, contrast to Kobe where he can ring off 5-6 3's in a row when hot. The potential to rake up points in a hurry, due to that streak 3 point shooting, as well as Kobe's absolute zero conscience about the types of shots he takes, made him more unpredictable and explosive. I.E when MJ scored 64 against Orlando, he was 1 out of 5 on 3's. Kobe's 81 featured 7 3's out of 13 taken. That stat right there symbolizes the difference in a nutshell.

MJ, even when hot, still pretty much plays the same in terms of the shots he takes, as well as how he played off his teammates. Kobe was more unpredictable in that he would suddenly get hot and then it was lights out, just an offensive onslaught. Typically, he's not going to fire up double digit 3 pointers except when he's hot.


True...and I will add...

the 3 pointer has changed changed dramamaticcally ( i know) over the past 10 years....

It has become the main objective in many successful offenses that are used today...

reminds me of this ignorant dude on my city sqaud....If me or another shooter miss a few 3's ( even after we make 4 in a row) He starts yelling about..." no more 3's...work the paint!!!!"

aint no one working the damn paint no more SMDH....the 3 pter is the new hook shot....I'm ol skewl and even I know that.

[Stu Jackson]

embarrasing to even think this