How Overrated is Kobe?

[ralph_i_el]

Kevin Durant has 4 seasons with a higher Ortg than Kobe's BEST season......and he's played less than half as many seasons. He's also led the league in scoring 4 times to Kobe's 2. Durant has 6 seasons with a higher TS% than Kobe's best season.


Kevin Durant has done all of these things in less than half of Kobe's career.

oh also, KD has two season with a higher PER than Kobe's best season.

KD has led the league in win shares 1 time.....Kobe has done that 0 times.

KD has 3 seasons with a higher ws/48 than Kobe's BEST season.



oh also, KD has two season with a higher PER than Kobe's best season.

KD has led the league in win shares 1 time.....Kobe has done that 0 times.

KD has 3 seasons with a higher ws/48 than Kobe's BEST season.


There really is no argument for Kobe as a better offensive weapon than Durant.
Switch their team situations for the first 8 years of their careers and nobody would even be comparing Kobe to Durant.


I stay shutting down these threads. Nobody wants to play with me :applause:


Kobe's BEST season in terms of Win Shares is the 100th highest winshare total of all time. That was 05-06....and Chauncey Billups had more WS that year. Even if we sort it for just players who had a >25% USG% Kobe's best season is 51st all time.

Sorting for >25% usg (high usage players) and 30+mpg, Kobe's most efficient season (By ts%) isn't even top 100.....it's 175th

The one area where Kobe IS historically significant in is usage%. 3 of the 20 highest usage seasons on record belong to Kobe.


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[riseagainst]

yeah, Kobe's place in history is the result of his luck with his stacked teams.
Based purely on his individual ability to play ball, his rank is somewhere in the 20s AT BEST.

[20Four]

Kobe's BEST season in terms of Win Shares is the 100th highest winshare total of all time. That was 05-06....and Chauncey Billups had more WS that year. Even if we sort it for just players who had a >25% USG% Kobe's best season is 51st all time.

Sorting for >25% usg (high usage players) and 30+mpg, Kobe's most efficient season (By ts%) isn't even top 100.....it's 175th

The one area where Kobe IS historically significant in is usage%. 3 of the 20 highest usage seasons on record belong to Kobe.


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[West-Side]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

[AirFederer]

Rent free

Kobe is only 175th among free renters.

KD has three seasons with lower rent than Kobes lowest rent.

[ImKobe]

More like how overrated the advanced stats are...especially when the game isn't played the same way it was back when Kobe was at his athletic peak in the early 2000s....

KD and Lebron benefit greatly from the era of no hand-checking as far as individual numbers go, yet still they can't accomplish what Kobe did.

Come back when one of them leads the most dominant Championship team of all-time in WS/48, or when one of them sweeps through their conference with no HCA in 2 out of 3 series while averaging 32/7/6, or when one of them 3-peats :kobe: or when one of them has a positive record in the Finals :kobe: :kobe:

[ralph_i_el]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

If you shoot 3's at 33.4% efficiency that only adjusts to 50.1 TS% on 3's.
That's not good

[ralph_i_el]

More like how overrated the advanced stats are...especially when the game isn't played the same way it was back when Kobe was at his athletic peak in the early 2000s....

KD and Lebron benefit greatly from the era of no hand-checking as far as individual numbers go, yet still they can't accomplish what Kobe did.

Come back when one of them leads the most dominant Championship team of all-time in WS/48, or when one of them sweeps through their conference with no HCA in 2 out of 3 series while averaging 32/7/6, or when one of them 3-peats :kobe: or when one of them has a positive record in the Finals :kobe: :kobe:

Can't accomplish what Shaq did you mean.

Switch Kobe and Durant's teammate situations and Durant is the one with rings early in his career.

Kobe is the luckiest player of all time
-Played entire career for marquee franchise
-Played from day 1 with a GOAT candidate in his prime
-Never had a major injury before/during his prime


Kobe=Luck+Longevity. I'd take 20-25 guys over him in terms of actual impact.

[West-Side]

If you shoot 3's at 33.4% efficiency that only adjusts to 50.1 TS% on 3's.
That's not good

His points per shot was higher than Jordan's compared to league average.
Context matters in these comparisons since Jordan did not play during the same time frame as Kobe did. :facepalm

[West-Side]

Can't accomplish what Shaq did you mean.

Switch Kobe and Durant's teammate situations and Durant is the one with rings early in his career.

Kobe is the luckiest player of all time
-Played entire career for marquee franchise
-Played from day 1 with a GOAT candidate in his prime
-Never had a major injury before/during his prime


Kobe=Luck+Longevity. I'd take 20-25 guys over him in terms of actual impact.

Shaquille hasn't won a damn thing without Kobe Bryant. He wasn't even the best player in his only other title run, Wade was. While Kobe led his team to 3 straight final appearances, winning two titles just 3 years after the two players went their separate way.

:rolleyes:

[ClipperRevival]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

Still using those numbers you tweeked to serve your Kobe worshipping purposes huh? Nice. I'll let you deceive whoever falls for this stuff.

[ralph_i_el]

Talk bad about advanced stats all you want, but think about this:


If you look at these stats, they pretty much conform to how we rank all time great players. All of the guys we consider "all time greats" or "top-10" or even "top-20" all come up near the top of win shares.....EXCEPT KOBE.

Kobe has rings (from stacked teams and however they beat the 2002 kings)
Kobe has career totals (from playing more seasons than almost any all-time great candidate)

That's it. His statistical and eye-test impact just don't measure up

[ImKobe]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

Also need to include the fact that there used to be a shorter 3pt line in the 90s, when Jordan had decent 3pt%...

You remove the seasons there was a shorter line (94-95 - 96-97) and MJ shot 343/1189 (28,8%) from the same distance Kobe shot 33% whie having attempted over 4x as many of them...

Jordan's 3pt% dropped from 37% to 24% in one year, and that's with the Bulls going away from the 3pt offense as the shortened line was removed..

Comparing Jordan and Kobe as 3pt shooters :kobe:

[ralph_i_el]

Shaquille hasn't won a damn thing without Kobe Bryant. He wasn't even the best player in his only other title run, Wade was. While Kobe led his team to 3 straight final appearances, winning two titles just 3 years after the two players went their separate way.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, if you throw out Shaq's prime and then compare his pre-and-post prime years to Kobe's prime years, Kobe looks pretty good:rolleyes: . But why should Shaq's prime years be thrown out? His peak was clearly better than Kobe's.

[ralph_i_el]

His points per shot was higher than Jordan's compared to league average.
Context matters in these comparisons since Jordan did not play during the same time frame as Kobe did. :facepalm

adjusting for era, Kobe's best season is still only 26th in Winshares since 2000.

Since 2000 LeBron, Durant, Dirk, KG, CP3, and Duncan have MULTIPLE seasons with higher WS than Kobe's BEST season. None of them had a Shaq though.

oh and btw, total winshares should make Kobe look better than he is, because he wasn't sitting out significant amounts of time due to injury, and was a high-minutes player.

[ImKobe]

Yeah, if you throw out Shaq's prime and then compare his pre-and-post prime years to Kobe's prime years, Kobe looks pretty good:rolleyes: . But why should Shaq's prime years be thrown out? His peak was clearly better than Kobe's.

You can't compare Shaq's peak to Kobe's because:

1) Shaq is a big man, Kobe is a perimeter player. One scores almost all of his points exclusively in the paint while the other guy's role is to shoot perimeter shots
2) Shaq is being set up by Kobe, who runs the offense

Shaq's "peak" was 3 straight Finals runs and 3 titles, Kobe's peak was 3 straight Finals runs and 2 titles, however Pau Gasol from 08-10 isn't anywhere close to 2000-02 Kobe as a player...

Both were the best at their position during their peaks and both won multiple rings as the man, both only won 1 MVP. Shaq has 1 more FMVP over Kobe while Kobe has one more ring than Shaq. Shaq without Kobe won one more while averaging about 14 points a game as a 3rd/4th option. Kobe won b2b and led the Lakers to 3 straight Finals as the best player in the game...

[West-Side]

You can't compare Shaq's peak to Kobe's because:

1) Shaq is a big man, Kobe is a perimeter player. One scores almost all of his points exclusively in the paint while the other guy's role is to shoot perimeter shots
2) Shaq is being set up by Kobe, who runs the offense

Shaq's "peak" was 3 straight Finals runs and 3 titles, Kobe's peak was 3 straight Finals runs and 2 titles, however Pau Gasol from 08-10 isn't anywhere close to 2000-02 Kobe as a player...

Both were the best at their position during their peaks and both won multiple rings as the man, both only won 1 MVP. Shaq has 1 more FMVP over Kobe while Kobe has one more ring than Shaq. Shaq without Kobe won one more while averaging about 14 points a game as a 3rd/4th option. Kobe won b2b and led the Lakers to 3 straight Finals as the best player in the game...

I love how people forget to pin point that detail; it's like they think Pau Gasol was even remotely as good as Kobe Bryant was next to Shaq.

Not to mention Shaq was extremely ineffective in late game situations where Kobe was the team's closer. Kobe was the closer for the 08' - 10' Lakers, not Pau. In fact, unless Pau had a good mismatch, he'd barely even demand the ball.

[Rocketswin2013]

Somewhat. He's got a playoff resume less than 10 guys have in the history of the NBA and some league MVP caliber regular seasons. No years for the ages(sorry '06 Kobe) but a constant, consistent offensive anchor(probably second best offensive anchor of his era) and believe it or not, some advanced stats(non-boxscore) love him. His ORAPM from '00 - '10-ish is top 1 or 2 with LeBron, Ginobili, Nowitzki, Wade and Nash up there around the top 5.

He's had some fantastic luck involving supporting casts because of playing in LA but he's pretty much delivered with the help he's gotten. Your narrow it down, and Durant hasn't really had full-seasons Kobe has. It's one of those things where the more you look at contextualize things, the clearer things become.

Edit: Kobe and LeBron tied in ORAPM from '02 - '11 at 6.6. The rest were somewhat clearly behind.

[ralph_i_el]

You can't compare Shaq's peak to Kobe's because:

1) Shaq is a big man, Kobe is a perimeter player. One scores almost all of his points exclusively in the paint while the other guy's role is to shoot perimeter shots
2) Shaq is being set up by Kobe, who runs the offense

Shaq's "peak" was 3 straight Finals runs and 3 titles, Kobe's peak was 3 straight Finals runs and 2 titles, however Pau Gasol from 08-10 isn't anywhere close to 2000-02 Kobe as a player...

Both were the best at their position during their peaks and both won multiple rings as the man, both only won 1 MVP. Shaq has 1 more FMVP over Kobe while Kobe has one more ring than Shaq. Shaq without Kobe won one more while averaging about 14 points a game as a 3rd/4th option. Kobe won b2b and led the Lakers to 3 straight Finals as the best player in the game...

Those Shaq/Kobe teams were shallow outside of them

I'm taking Pau+Artest+Odom+Bynum over Young Kobe+Grant+Fisher+Fox

Prime Pau had a lot of subtle skills that championship teams need. Having an elite passing big man is ESSENTIAL....and Kobe had TWO in Pau and Odom. It's probably a lot easier to score when you have a guy who is going to guard the other team's best wing (artest or ariza), and two elite passing big men, and lots of offensive rebounders to clean up your bricks.

Shaq also led his team to the finals past MJ as a 22 year old.

[West-Side]

Talk bad about advanced stats all you want, but think about this:


If you look at these stats, they pretty much conform to how we rank all time great players. All of the guys we consider "all time greats" or "top-10" or even "top-20" all come up near the top of win shares.....EXCEPT KOBE.

Kobe has rings (from stacked teams and however they beat the 2002 kings)
Kobe has career totals (from playing more seasons than almost any all-time great candidate)

That's it. His statistical and eye-test impact just don't measure up

Ah yeah the stat that has Karl Malone above Michael Jordan; John Stockton above Magic Johnson; Dirk Nowitzki above Shaquille O'Neal.

Kobe is 15th all time in win share.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

But it's a meaningless stat without context used by lazy ass fans who don't want to take the time to consider the context. Is Reggie Miller better than Hakeem Olajuwon and Bill Russell? Well the WS sure suggests that. :rolleyes:

[ImKobe]

I love how people forget to pin point that detail; it's like they think Pau Gasol was even remotely as good as Kobe Bryant was next to Shaq.

Not to mention Shaq was extremely ineffective in late game situations where Kobe was the team's closer. Kobe was the closer for the 08' - 10' Lakers, not Pau. In fact, unless Pau had a good mismatch, he'd barely even demand the ball.

Pau's effective on paper in crunch time, however:

1) Team's aren't looking for him to score in late game situations with Kobe hogging the ball and looking for his shot, everyone in the world knows Kobe's going for it when it's a close game
2) His opportunities come from put-backs or "kobe assists" and from guys leaving him open and his teammates finding him

Plus, Kobe is the guy that runs the triangle and leads the team by example, he was the one that was argued as the best in the game...anyone that's objective would admit to this.

Peak Shaq was superior statistically, but stats alone are useless. Lots of players with great stats never won anything/never had great careers. You look at guys like Malone & Stockton, Chris Webber, Dominique Wilkins, AI, T-Mac, Steve Nash, Vince Carter, Chris Paul...

I'm sure those players were better statistically than a lot of greats who won multiple titles, but we don't rank them over those guys because they had great regular seasons numbers-wise. You can't say one guy is better than another because he shot 5% better or averaged a point and an assist more..There are so many variables to the game of basketball that a simple stat sheet will not be enough.

[West-Side]

Those Shaq/Kobe teams were shallow outside of them

I'm taking Pau+Artest+Odom+Bynum over Young Kobe+Grant+Fisher+Fox

Shaq also led his team to the finals past MJ as a 22 year old.

Bynum?! The man barely even played in the playoffs.
This post simply concludes how idiotic Kobe haters really are.

Harper, Rice, Horry, Shaq, Kobe, Fox, young Fisher etc. absolutely shit on Pau, Odom, Fisher, World Peace/Ariza.

It's not even close.
Especially if we're considering 01' & 02' years.
00' is close and I might give Pau, Lamar, Fisher, Ariza the nod over Rice, Kobe, Harper etc.

[West-Side]

Pau's effective on paper in crunch time, however:

1) Team's aren't looking for him to score in late game situations with Kobe hogging the ball and looking for his shot, everyone in the world knows Kobe's going for it when it's a close game
2) His opportunities come from put-backs or "kobe assists" and from guys leaving him open and his teammates finding him

Plus, Kobe is the guy that runs the triangle and leads the team by example, he was the one that was argued as the best in the game...anyone that's objective would admit to this.

Peak Shaq was superior statistically, but stats alone are useless. Lots of players with great stats never won anything/never had great careers. You look at guys like Malone & Stockton, Chris Webber, Dominique Wilkins, AI, T-Mac, Steve Nash, Vince Carter, Chris Paul...

I'm sure those players were better statistically than a lot of greats who won multiple titles, but we don't rank them over those guys because they had great regular seasons numbers-wise. You can't say one guy is better than another because he shot 5% better or averaged a point and an assist more..There are so many variables to the game of basketball that a simple stat sheet will not be enough.

Bro I know, 01' Kobe could have probably won the same 2 rings with LA from 08' to 10'. He was so dominant that he was quite easily the 2nd best player in the playoffs that year.

He annihilated the Spurs and every other western conference team that year. Both him & Shaq were the most dominant duo I have ever seen play in the playoffs.

Yet he was a "side-kick" according to these idiots. :rolleyes:

[ImKobe]

Those Shaq/Kobe teams were shallow outside of them

I'm taking Pau+Artest+Odom+Bynum over Young Kobe+Grant+Fisher+Fox

Shaq also led his team to the finals past MJ as a 22 year old.

past out of shape MJ, and the 95 Magic had Horace Grant (who won titles with MJ and Pippen the previous years) with the Bulls not having a big to defend Shaq, guess what, they swept the Magic the next year with Rodman

Grant 14/10
Penny 20/4/8
Nick Anderson 14/5/3
Dennis Scott 15/3/2

for that Playoff run...that's more help than Kobe had from 08-10..

funny how you left out Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, or Ron Harper, or Glen Rice

01 Kobe averaged 32/7/6 while the Lakers swept the Western Conference with no HCA besides the first round..

[ralph_i_el]

Ah yeah the stat that has Karl Malone above Michael Jordan; John Stockton above Magic Johnson; Dirk Nowitzki above Shaquille O'Neal.

Kobe is 15th all time in win share.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

But it's a meaningless stat without context used by lazy ass fans who don't want to take the time to consider the context. Is Reggie Miller better than Hakeem Olajuwon and Bill Russell? Well the WS sure suggests that. :rolleyes:

you have to consider longevity.....That's why I was only using the stat for INDIVIDUAL seasons. Karl Malone and Stockton played a lot more games than MJ and Magic..... BUT Kobe played more games than all of these other greats and STILL couldn't crack the top-10.

I'm not saying there is any one stat that will give you an accurate top-10 ranking, but there are stats that can tell you who is in the neighborhood and who isn't.

[ralph_i_el]

Bynum?! The man barely even played in the playoffs.
This post simply concludes how idiotic Kobe haters really are.

Harper, Rice, Horry, Shaq, Kobe, Fox, young Fisher etc. absolutely shit on Pau, Odom, Fisher, World Peace/Ariza.

It's not even close.
Especially if we're considering 01' & 02' years.
00' is close and I might give Pau, Lamar, Fisher, Ariza the nod over Rice, Kobe, Harper etc.

Pau- 5 time all star
Lamar Odom- 6th man of the year
Artest- DPoy (also consistently one of the top players in the league in adjusted +/-)

[West-Side]

you have to consider longevity.....That's why I was only using the stat for INDIVIDUAL seasons. Karl Malone and Stockton played a lot more games than MJ and Magic..... BUT Kobe played more games than all of these other greats and STILL couldn't crack the top-10.

I'm not saying there is any one stat that will give you an accurate top-10 ranking, but there are stats that can tell you who is in the neighborhood and who isn't.

Why don't you take the time to analyze what I did with "Jordan Vs. Kobe" and come back to me. On the surface, stats can be misleading but if you do your homework you can add context to the comparison.

People automatically assume Jordan was a far more efficient scorer than Kobe. Yet when I compare their numbers to league averages for their respective years; I notice how close they truly were to each other.

And that's me comparing Kobe to the G.O.A.T.
Even Kobe's rebounds and assists aren't far behind when you adjust for pace, league scoring averages and minutes played for each respective player.

Fact is, Kobe isn't overrated he is highly underrated and under-appreciated. Which is truly sad because we don't see players of his caliber that often.

I figured real basketball fans would cherish what they saw from the man over the last 20 years; instead you guys take him for granted.

[ralph_i_el]

past out of shape MJ, and the 95 Magic had Horace Grant (who won titles with MJ and Pippen the previous years) with the Bulls not having a big to defend Shaq, guess what, they swept the Magic the next year with Rodman

Grant 14/10
Penny 20/4/8
Nick Anderson 14/5/3
Dennis Scott 15/3/2

for that Playoff run...that's more help than Kobe had from 08-10..

funny how you left out Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, or Ron Harper, or Glen Rice

01 Kobe averaged 32/7/6 while the Lakers swept the Western Conference with no HCA besides the first round..

MJ was out of shape from playing professional baseball :roll: and then went on to three-peat again. So out of shape that he averaged 31ppg:roll:

Yeah, Shaq's magic were a great squad. Shaq was still the best player and he was only 22.

[ralph_i_el]

Why don't you take the time to analyze what I did with "Jordan Vs. Kobe" and come back to me. On the surface, stats can be misleading but if you do your homework you can add context to the comparison.

People automatically assume Jordan was a far more efficient scorer than Kobe. Yet when I compare their numbers to league averages for their respective years; I notice how close they truly were to each other.

And that's me comparing Kobe to the G.O.A.T.
Even Kobe's rebounds and assists aren't far behind when you adjust for pace, league scoring averages and minutes played for each respective player.

Fact is, Kobe isn't overrated he is highly underrated and under-appreciated. Which is truly sad because we don't see players of his caliber that often.

I figured real basketball fans would cherish what they saw from the man over the last 20 years; instead you guys take him for granted.

I already told you, jacking 6 3's per game at 33% is NOT efficient.

[West-Side]

Pau- 5 time all star
Lamar Odom- 6th man of the year
Artest- DPoy (also consistently one of the top players in the league in adjusted +/-)


:oldlol: World Peace was not a DPOTY when he played with LA; in fact he wasn't nearly as great of a defender with LA as he was earlier in his career. He was also extremely inconsistent and inefficient offensively. Pau could not win a playoff game prior to winning championships with Kobe. You tell me, what's the missing ingredient there? :confusedshrug:

Lamar Odom was extremely inconsistent but he was still a giant asset; better than anyone on the 00' - 02' Lakers besides Kobe. His rebounding rate was top five in the league if I remember correctly and his versatility created a lot of mis-matches. However, there were times where he just disappeared, especially in big game situations.

There's no way you can tell me that Odom/Pau/Pau were better than Kobe/Horry/Fox/Fisher etc. from 01' & 02'. Heck, no one in their right mind would even consider trading that trio for 01' Kobe alone.

Kobe was a SUPERSTAR in 2001 and 2002; easily a top five player and most likely top three in 2001. He was just too dominant to ignore yet people pretend like Shaq did it himself.

Yes, Shaq was the most dominant force in the league all 3 years but he also joined forces with the BEST perimeter threat in the game in 2001 and 2002.

[West-Side]

I already told you, jacking 6 3's per game at 33% is NOT efficient.

Points Per Shot tells you just how efficient Kobe was. His career 2PT% was .486. He shot better from the line and beyond the arc than Jordan.

He averaged a higher PPS than Jordan compared to league average and even his 2PT% was only slightly lower than the greatest of all-time.

:oldlol: @ you bringing up one aspect of Kobe's shooting arsenal. Ironically, it's something he did much better than Jordan.

[ralph_i_el]

:oldlol: World Peace was not a DPOTY when he played with LA; in fact he wasn't nearly as great of a defender with LA as he was earlier in his career. He was also extremely inconsistent and inefficient offensively. Pau could not win a playoff game prior to winning championships with Kobe. You tell me, what's the missing ingredient there? :confusedshrug:

Lamar Odom was extremely inconsistent but he was still a giant asset; better than anyone on the 00' - 02' Lakers besides Kobe. His rebounding rate was top five in the league if I remember correctly and his versatility created a lot of mis-matches. However, there were times where he just disappeared, especially in big game situations.

There's no way you can tell me that Odom/Pau/Pau were better than Kobe/Horry/Fox/Fisher etc. from 01' & 02'. Heck, no one in their right mind would even consider trading that trio for 01' Kobe alone.

Kobe was a SUPERSTAR in 2001 and 2002; easily a top five player and most likely top three in 2001. He was just too dominant to ignore yet people pretend like Shaq did it himself.

Yes, Shaq was the most dominant force in the league all 3 years but he also joined forces with the BEST perimeter threat in the game in 2001 and 2002.

I agree with the bolded.

Pau's best sidekick was either Shane Battier or Mike Miller :facepalm It's a miracle he was even making the playoffs

[ralph_i_el]

Points Per Shot tells you just how efficient Kobe was. His career 2PT% was .486. He shot better from the line and beyond the arc than Jordan.

He averaged a higher PPS than Jordan compared to league average and even his 2PT% was only slightly lower than the greatest of all-time.

:oldlol: @ you bringing up one aspect of Kobe's shooting arsenal. Ironically, it's something he did much better than Jordan.

doing something poorly A LOT is worse then doing something poorly A LITTLE

Yeah Kobe shot better on 3's than MJ. He still wasn't good at it and he took A TON of them.

[West-Side]

doing something poorly A LOT is worse then doing something poorly A LITTLE

Yeah Kobe shot better on 3's than MJ. He still wasn't good at it and he took A TON of them.

Don't be biased, actually analyze the numbers.
Kobe was slightly better at the line; clearly better from 3PT range and slightly worse from 2PT%.

However, his overall PPS was slightly higher compared to league average which is probably the most holistic way to compare efficiency.

Points / FGA actually encompasses all the scoring efficiencies (2PT, FT & 3PT).
Kobe's is slightly higher...

[ralph_i_el]

Don't be biased, actually analyze the numbers.
Kobe was slightly better at the line; clearly better from 3PT range and slightly worse from 2PT%.

However, his overall PPS was slightly higher compared to league average which is probably the most holistic way to compare efficiency.

Points / FGA actually encompasses all the scoring efficiencies (2PT, FT & 3PT).
Kobe's is slightly higher...

source on your PPS stats?

It's not like it's just guys from earlier eras that significantly outpace Kobe in TS%. It's guys from his own era too.

[West-Side]

source on your PPS stats?

It's not like it's just guys from earlier eras that significantly outpace Kobe in TS%. It's guys from his own era too.

I used 1985 - 1998 for Jordan (not including his 1995 short season or his days with Washington).

I used 2000 - 2013 for Kobe (not including his days off the bench or his last two years due to injury).

All of my numbers are outline in the Jordan Vs. Kobe thread on page 4; if you're interested in looking at my work.

[Young X]

People automatically assume Jordan was a far more efficient scorer than Kobe. Yet when I compare their numbers to league averages for their respective years; I notice how close they truly were to each other.I keep seeing you say this and it's not true.


Jordan's scoring peak ('88-'90): 54.4 eFG% - 60.8 TS%

League average ('88-'90): 48.9 eFG% - 53.7 TS%

+5.5 eFG% / +7.1 TS%


Kobe's scoring peak ('06-'08): 49.8 eFG% - 57.1 TS%

League average ('06 - '08): 49.4 eFG% - 53.9 TS%

+0.4 eFG% / 3.2 TS%


^This is with Jordan averaging 2 more PPG.

[West-Side]

I keep seeing you say this and it's not true.


Jordan's scoring peak ('88-'90): 54.4 eFG% - 60.8 TS%

League average ('88-'90): 48.9 eFG% - 53.7 TS%

+5.5 eFG% / +7.1 TS%


Kobe's scoring peak ('06-'08): 49.8 eFG% - 57.1 TS%

League average ('06 - '08): 49.4 eFG% - 53.9 TS%

+0.4 eFG% / 3.2 TS%


^This is with Jordan averaging 2 more PPG.

Yes, but I included only perimeter players in my analysis.
Take a look at league averages for point guards, shooting guards and small forwards.

[Young X]

Yes, but I included only perimeter players in my analysis.
Take a look at league averages for point guards, shooting guards and small forwards.Where do you find them?

[West-Side]

Where do you find them?

I used a spreadsheet for my analysis by importing all the players and sorting them by position; than deleting the cells that included C & PF's.

It's not 100% accurate because both you and me know there are players like Dirk, Webber & Garnett who do have a mid-range game so it wasn't accurate for me to exclude them. But for time management, it would have taken me way too long to perform such analysis.

[Heavincent]

He's only overrated if you don't understand basketball.

[Dr Seuss]

He's had some fantastic luck involving supporting casts because of playing in LA

curious as to what you mean by this. are you saying LA has always had great mgmt and have been able to make great trades, or that playing in the big city of LA draws in free agents all the time. If is the former, i completely agree, if the latter, you couldnt be further from the truth. No noteable free agents have ever wanted to come to LA in kobe's alpha dog years (unless you consider an aged and offense-lacking artest a notable free agent). maybe thats kobes fault, or maybe that's mgmt, either way, the lakers and kobe havent had good luck when it comes to signing FA's

[LoneyROY7]

It's less about overrating Kobe and much more about underrating the greatest scorer in the history of the league, Kevin Durant.

[tragicbronson]

Rent free man, keep posting these advanced stats, they mean nothing, it's an argument for haters and those who don't watch games, if you had watched games, you'd know how good of a player is Kobe and how he impacts the game. Cheers :cheers:

[ralph_i_el]

Rent free man, keep posting these advanced stats, they mean nothing, it's an argument for haters and those who don't watch games, if you had watched games, you'd know how good of a player is Kobe and how he impacts the game. Cheers :cheers:
For every 50+ explosion that you remember forever, Kobe has a game where he bricked his team to a loss, and you forget about it quickly.

[riseagainst]

Kobe is a very solid basketball player, an all time great, top 30 all time. But he isn't even close to being on the same level as Lebron and MJ. He's probably on the tier of a Clyde Drexler tops.

[20Four]

Kobe is a very solid basketball player, an all time great, top 30 all time. But he isn't even close to being on the same level as Lebron and MJ. He's probably on the tier of a Clyde Drexler tops.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

LeBRONZE stans never cease to amaze me lol always trying to compare their QUEEEN to MJ and kobe LMAO hahahahahahahahhahaha


http://i.imgur.com/csa8Q6d.gif

http://i.imgur.com/2UPZHzx.gif

[Levity]

Kobe is a very solid basketball player, an all time great, top 30 all time. But he isn't even close to being on the same level as Lebron and MJ. He's probably on the tier of a Clyde Drexler tops.

damn, buddy. why do you let a top 30 player dictate your posting habits.

[20Four]

damn, buddy. why do you let a top 30 player dictate your posting habits.
GOTEM!!!! LOL

[Charlie Sheen]

This is a tough one for me to answer. Gonna try to give the best answer I can

I could never rate him properly. He's been a crucial part of 5 titles to my favorite sports team. Intentionally or not, I give him more credit than other champions because those rings mean more to me :lol His career winding down means I'm only gonna appreciate him more.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe is overrated because of winshares? A useless boxscore metric which doesn't adjust for team, lineups or opponent play?

I agree in principle that dude IS overrated, but not for this reason.

[G0ATbe]

Overrated enough to have the most rings in the NBA among active players:rockon:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/20141227/5154218/kobe-bryant-counts-rings-for-his-hater-o.gif

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe is overrated because of winshares? A useless boxscore metric which doesn't adjust for team, lineups or opponent play?

I agree in principle that dude IS overrated, but not for this reason.

I'm not saying that WS is some sort of be all-end all magical stat. I'm just saying that most of the time it is in line with the eye test, and how we rank players, except in Kobe's case. He stands out.

[jstern]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

I'm confused by your 2pt stats. For example, the league average for 1990 was something like .488 and the league average for the past few years have been in the .488. Obviously there were a lot of great centers back then, so the .488 cannot be the 2pt average of perimeter players. So are you comparing the league's 2pt average back then, to the the perimeter player's average of today's players?

[West-Side]

I'm confused by your 2pt stats. For example, the league average for 1990 was something like .488 and the league average for the past few years have been in the .488. Obviously there were a lot of great centers back then, so the .488 cannot be the 2pt average of perimeter players. So are you comparing the league's 2pt average back then, to the the perimeter player's average of today's players?

What?
From 1985 - 1998, the 2PT% average was .488 and .482 for perimeter players.
From 2000 - 2013, the 2PT% average was .475 and .455 for perimeter players.

Jordan shot .520 and Kobe shot .486.
Jordan shot .038 above league average while Kobe shot .031 above league average.

[ralph_i_el]

What?
From 1985 - 1998, the 2PT% average was .488 and .482 for perimeter players.
From 2000 - 2013, the 2PT% average was .475 and .455 for perimeter players.

Jordan shot .520 and Kobe shot .486.
Jordan shot .038 above league average while Kobe shot .031 above league average.

That's from players transitioning from long-2's (low % 2 point shot), to 3 point shooting. Your metric doesn't weight efficiency by shot type.

[West-Side]

That's from players transitioning from long-2's (low % 2 point shot), to 3 point shooting. Your metric doesn't weight efficiency by shot type.

It's not the most precise way to measure things, I agree.
But it does shed light at why the difference is so high to a large extent.

.520 to .486 looks pretty bad until you consider league averages in each player's respective era.

I would assume players from 2000 - 2013 did take more shots 20+ feet away that counted as 2PT% but that type of analysis would take me months to evaluate.

[I.R.Beast]

Win shares = useless garbage....

[I<3NBA]

super over rated. people over rate him because of his rings, 3 of which he got from Shaq. if we rate him correctly, he'd have 2 rings. the same number of rings Lebron has.

[20Four]

super over rated. people over rate him because of his rings, 3 of which he got from Shaq. if we rate him correctly, he'd have 2 rings. the same number of rings Lebron has.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Sad your husband lebronze is playing in the weak east and is still 2/6....had to join wades team just to win.....LMAO has a stacked team but still doesnt win....LMAO your boy sucks get over it chump

[kennethgriffin]

kobe is underrated


- only player to win multiple titles without a legendary sidekick
- only player to outscore a team by himself
- only player to score 80+ in the modern era
- only player to score 50+ for 5 consecutive games in the modern era
- only player to start or make 17 consecutive all-star games
- only player in nba history with 30,000 points and 6,000 assists
- tied for the all time record of all NBA 1st teams
- tied for the all time record of all defensive 1st teams
- tied for the all time record of all star game mvps
- tied for the all time record of three pointers made in a game
- tied for the all time best International win%
- all time Guard scoring champion
- all time most game winning shots
- all time most 50+ win playoff teams beatin
- all time most allstar points
- youngest NBA allstar
- youngest 1st team all defense
- youngest dunk contest champion
- youngest nba starter
- 2nd most 30 point games
- 2nd most 60 point games
- 3rd mot 50 point games
- 3rd most 40 point games
- 3rd most points ever scored in a career
- 3rd most points ever scored in the playoffs
- Sporting News Player of the decade ( 2000's )
- Dime Magazine Player of the decade ( 2000's )
- TNT Player of the decade ( 2000's )

[ISHGoat]

Cmon guys we all know that advanced stats are kobe haters and will do anything to prop up their idol leBRONZE

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'm not saying that WS is some sort of be all-end all magical stat. I'm just saying that most of the time it is in line with the eye test, and how we rank players, except in Kobe's case. He stands out.


so then

Kobe was the best player on the most dominate playoff team in NBA history :applause: :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

you aslo used WS/48 in your op so I guess that..

Kyrie was the best player on the Cavs during the playoffs

Lebron and Tristan had basically the same impact

Marcin Gortat was undoubtedly the best player on the Wizards in 2015

oh and should I even post the top 10 PER leaders in NBA history..

:roll: :roll:

[ralph_i_el]

so then

Kobe was the best player on the most dominate playoff team in NBA history :applause: :applause:

Yeah, he had the same WS/48 as Shaq. It was a legendary run. One of the reasons why he's one of the top 25 greatest players in basketball history :applause:

The ring before and after that one he was nowhere near Shaq (not even in the same neighborhood)

[TheMarkMadsen]

Marcin Gortat undoubtedly the best player on the 2015 Wizards

:applause: :applause:

[Smoke117]

He is the most overrated NBA player of all time...so that overrated.

[stalkerforlife]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

:lebronamazed:

[TheMarkMadsen]

2015 Wizards

WS

Gortat = 8.6

Wall = 7.8


WS/48

Gortat = .168

Wall = .132

Gortat :bowdown: :bowdown:

John Wall is so overrated, isn't even better than Marcin Gortat

WS & WS/48 has shown me the light

[3ball]

.
MJ put up better stats during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did in his championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), even though MJ faced lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe did:


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ:... 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
Kobe: 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
Kobe: 29.8 PPG... 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ:... 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3 FMVP
Kobe: 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


SUMMARY: At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe (2008-2010)..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above show MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:

[catch24]

He is the most overrated NBA player of all time...so that overrated.

Overrated when he's unfairly put into the GOAT tier? I agree, but in a general, and objective sense? No way.

Where do you have him all-time, and why is he MOAT iyo?

[ralph_i_el]

Marcin Gortat undoubtedly the best player on the 2015 Wizards

:applause: :applause:

Gortat was snubbed from the All-star game last year.

However, if you watch a wizards game, you can see that Wall and Gortat share a very special chemistry on the PnR. He's assisted on 77% of his buckets, and most of these buckets are easy finishes at the rim.

I see your point on the unreliable aspects of WS. WS slightly overrate low usage players, and PER overrates high usage players.

[stalkerforlife]

.
MJ put up better stats during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did in his championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), even though MJ faced lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe did:


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



But despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ:... 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
Kobe: 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
Kobe: 29.8 PPG... 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ:... 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3 FMVP
Kobe: 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


SUMMARY: At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe (2008-2010)..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than any team Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above show MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:

I love you, but prime Kobe was better than 2nd 3peat MJ. Just be real.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Gortat was snubbed from the All-star game last year.

However, if you watch a wizards game, you can see that Wall and Gortat share a very special chemistry on the PnR. He's assisted on 77% of his buckets, and most of these buckets are easy finishes at the rim.

I see your point on the unreliable aspects of WS.



:cheers:

and about that PER.. I don't know about you but I can't take that stat seriously, if you look at the all time leaders you'll see that Paul, Wade, Barkley, Robinson, Neil Johnston (who?), Pettit are all higher than Magic, KAJ, Bird, Duncan & Hakeem.. Cp3 is almost 10 spots over Magic and Wade is 10 spots over Bird

:confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Neil who?

[ralph_i_el]

:cheers:

and about that PER.. I don't know about you but I can't take that stat seriously, if you look at the all time leaders you'll see that Paul, Wade, Barkley, Robinson, Neil Johnston (who?), Pettit are all higher than Magic, KAJ, Bird, Duncan & Hakeem.. Cp3 is almost 10 spots over Magic and Wade is 10 spots over Bird

:confusedshrug:

Like I said earlier in this thread, none of these stats is the be all end all. At the end of the day, they shake out so that the top players are all pretty close to where they belong. However, Kobe is rated on this forum WAY higher than he is with advanced stats, and he's really the only player whose ranking is way different than his metrics.

[DonDadda59]

Depends on who you're talking to. There's a lot of completely irrational Bean stans here though, some of the shit they say is way out there. The past few weeks a bunch of them were running around proclaiming Bean the greatest dunker of all time. Like... really? :wtf:


WS & WS/48 has shown me the light

2009 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .223
Bean RS- .206

Pau PS- .221
Bean PS- .238

2010 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .220
Bean RS- .160

Pau PS- .224
Bean PS- .190

MVPau :bowdown:

[kennethgriffin]

Depends on who you're talking to. There's a lot of completely irrational Bean stans here though, some of the shit they say is way out there. The past few weeks a bunch of them were running around proclaiming Bean the greatest dunker of all time. Like... really? :wtf:



2009 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .223
Bean RS- .206

Pau PS- .221
Bean PS- .238

2010 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .220
Bean RS- .160

Pau PS- .224
Bean PS- .190

MVPau :bowdown:

kobe had a higher playoff winshare than shaq in 2001 when kobe was 22 and shaq was in his absolute prime



so kobe at an age when he should be getting drafted into the nba was a better player than shaq at his absolute BEST


:lol

[catch24]

Depends on who you're talking to. There's a lot of completely irrational Bean stans here though, some of the shit they say is way out there. The past few weeks a bunch of them were running around proclaiming Bean the greatest dunker of all time. Like... really? :wtf:



2009 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .223
Bean RS- .206

Pau PS- .221
Bean PS- .238

2010 Lakers Ws/48
Pau RS- .220
Bean RS- .160

Pau PS- .224
Bean PS- .190

MVPau :bowdown:

As a proud Kobe hater, where do you rate Kobe? Objectively speaking.

Same thing with you, ralph.

Kobe's PER, WS/48 and BPM were all higher than Pau's in 2009 (playoffs) and he had a higher PER than Pau in 2010 (playoffs). Kobe's RAPM was also better than Pau's in 2009 and 2010 as a whole, including the playoffs. I don't take any of these stats seriously, but I'm just saying. :confusedshrug:


kobe had a higher playoff winshare than shaq in 2001 when kobe was 22 and shaq was in his absolute prime

This too.

[ArbitraryWater]

Objectively speaking, this is objectively of course, Kobe is 11-14 between Dirk/Oscar/West

[DonDadda59]

kobe had a higher playoff winshare than shaq in 2001 when kobe was 22 and shaq was in his absolute prime



so kobe at an age when he should be getting drafted into the nba was a better player than shaq at his absolute BEST


:lol

Shaq and Beans had the same Ws/48 in the playoffs that season. Other seasons it wasn't even close.

So the final tally is- Shaq led the Lakers in Ws/48 in 3 of the 3-peat regular seasons, 2 of the post seasons, tied in one. Pau led in 2 of the regular seasons, one of the post seasons.

In conclusion- In 5 championship regular seasons and 5 championship postseasons, Bean was the best player on the Lakers in only one postseason (2009).

If Ws/48 is to be believed, that dude is overrated as shit :yaohappy:

[ralph_i_el]

As a proud Kobe hater, where do you rate Kobe? Objectively speaking.

Same thing with you, ralph.

Kobe's PER, WS/48 and BPM were all higher than Pau's in 2009 (playoffs) and he had a higher PER than Pau in 2010 (playoffs). Kobe's RAPM was also better than Pau's in 2009 and 2010 as a whole, including the playoffs. I don't take any of these stats seriously, but I'm just saying. :confusedshrug:



This too.

To me Kobe is between 11-20. A lot of guys I know should be top-20 played before I was born or old enough to accurately rank them. Like how the **** am I supposed to know how good Wilt, Kareem, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Dr. J, and Magic are :confusedshrug:

Since I've started watching seriously, the best players have been Shaq, Timmy, Bron, Durant, and Kobe.

[catch24]

Objectively speaking, this is objectively of course, Kobe is 11-14 between Dirk/Oscar/West

Right there with Dirk? That isn't objective dude.

[catch24]

Yo Don, why are you always ducking my question? Every time I've asked this dude to rank Kobe he disappears. :oldlol:


To me Kobe is between 11-20. A lot of guys I know should be top-20 played before I was born or old enough to accurately rank them. Like how the **** am I supposed to know how good Wilt, Kareem, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Dr. J, and Magic are :confusedshrug:

Since I've started watching seriously, the best players have been Shaq, Timmy, Bron, Durant, and Kobe.

So, you could see a case where he's rated ~20 all-time? I can respect the bold, but the other stuff is a little extreme. Kobe's resume in and of itself is that of a top 7-10 player. When we include his stats and overall impact, the lowest I could see him is 11-12...

[ArbitraryWater]

Right there with Dirk? That isn't objective dude.

You even have Kobe fans like hamtaro and tpols saying they're same tier..

Okay, lets look at it this way, not perfect but pretty easy to start...

2000: equal tier, could be argued both
2001: Kobe
2002: both could be argued
2003: both could be argued
2004: Dirk (you would probably say Kobe)
2005: Dirk
2006: both could be argued
2007: both could be argued
2008: Kobe
2009: both could be argued
2010: both could be argued
2011: Dirk
2012: both could be argued
2013: Kobe (Dirk injury year)
2014: Dirk (Kobe injury year)

this not fair?

[3ball]

Gilbert arenas said 35-year old MJ was better than prime Kobe.
.

[catch24]

You even have Kobe fans like hamtaro and tpols saying they're same tier..

Okay, lets look at it this way, not perfect but pretty easy to start...

2000: equal tier, could be argued both
2001: Kobe
2002: both could be argued
2003: both could be argued
2004: Dirk (you would probably say Kobe)
2005: Dirk
2006: both could be argued
2007: both could be argued
2008: Kobe
2009: both could be argued
2010: both could be argued
2011: Dirk
2012: both could be argued
2013: Kobe (Dirk injury year)
2014: Dirk (Kobe injury year)

this not fair?

2002? No. 2003-2007. Yeah, that's fair. I don't think Dirk could be argued with Kobe in 2009 who was there with Wade and LeBron. Maybe in 2010, but even then I'm not sure. 2003-2007 and post 2010 is when they've been relatively in the same tier IMO.

[ralph_i_el]

Yo Don, why are you always ducking my question? Every time I've asked this dude to rank Kobe he disappears. :oldlol:



So, you could see a case where he's rated ~20 all-time? I can respect the bold, but the other stuff is a little extreme. Kobe's resume in and of itself is that of a top 7-10 player. When we include his stats and overall impact, the lowest I could see him is 11-12...

I just don't know where guys like Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Alex English, Karl Malone, Bill Russell should go. 20 is the lowest possible for Kobe in my book. I know that he's great :confusedshrug: just borderline top-10 great, not borderline GOAT

[ArbitraryWater]

2002? No. 2003-2007. Yeah, that's fair. I don't think Dirk could be argued with Kobe in 2009 who was there with Wade and LeBron. Maybe in 2010, but even then I'm not sure. 2003-2007 and post 2010 is when they've been relatively in the same tier IMO.

Dirk's good to bad playoff series ratio is ****ing insane...

27/10/3/1/1 on 52% in 2009, beats the 3rd seeded Spurs in the 1st Round with 4-1, while the entire defensive game plan by the Spurs was set up on stopping Dirk. Then individually dismantled the Nuggets in the 2nd Round, 35/12 on 53% and 92% FT (GOAT advanced efficiency), unfortunate game 3 loss (if you remember the no whistle on the Melo final shot),

In 2010 carries an average squad to 55 wins, 2nd seed, 27/8/3/1/1 on 55% in the playoffs, again teammates fail to come up (not their fault, not enough talent really).

From 2008-2010 he had a teammate score 20+ pts 9 times in 21 games. 3 of those came under 40% shooting (not helpful), only 3 came above 50% shooting. All 9 between Terry, Butler, Howard.

Dirk in 2009 or 2010 wasn't worse than 2011 one bit. 2009 just might be his peak.


thats atleast deserving of being put in the same tier, please.

[3ball]

Gilbert Arenas said 35-year old MJ was better than prime Kobe.

[3ball]

36-year old MJ was better than prime Kobe.



^^^^ This is backed up by stats - even though MJ faced lower league-wide DRtg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606787&postcount=422) in regular season and playoffs during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did during championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), MJ still had better performance and stats during this time:


REGULAR SEASON: 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ:... 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
Kobe: 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
Kobe: 29.8 PPG... 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ:... 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3 FMVP
Kobe: 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com

[ralph_i_el]

Gilbert Arenas said 35-year old MJ was better than prime Kobe.

yeah, mj is the GOAT.

This isn't a thread about him though

[kennethgriffin]

^^^^ This is backed up by stats - even though MJ faced lower league-wide DRtg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606787&postcount=422) in regular season and playoffs during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did during championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), MJ still had better performance and stats during this time:


REGULAR SEASON: 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ:... 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
Kobe: 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
Kobe: 29.8 PPG... 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ:... 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3 FMVP
Kobe: 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com



you just quoted "36 year old jordan is better than prime kobe"


then you say its backed up by listing jordans averages from

1995-96 - 32 years old
1996-97 - 33 years old
1997-98 - 34 years old



http://img.pandawhale.com/179505-Jacksonville-Jaguars-wtf-guy-g-d9yu.gif


and kobes prime averages werent even from 2009 or 2010




:lol

[catch24]

Dirk's good to bad playoff series ratio is ****ing insane...

27/10/3/1/1 on 52% in 2009, beats the 3rd seeded Spurs in the 1st Round with 4-1, while the entire defensive game plan by the Spurs was set up on stopping Dirk. Then individually dismantled the Nuggets in the 2nd Round, 35/12 on 53% and 92% FT (GOAT advanced efficiency), unfortunate game 3 loss (if you remember the no whistle on the Melo final shot),

In 2010 carries an average squad to 55 wins, 2nd seed, 27/8/3/1/1 on 55% in the playoffs, again teammates fail to come up (not their fault, not enough talent really).

From 2008-2010 he had a teammate score 20+ pts 9 times in 21 games. 3 of those came under 40% shooting (not helpful), only 3 came above 50% shooting. All 9 between Terry, Butler, Howard.

Dirk in 2009 or 2010 wasn't worse than 2011 one bit. 2009 just might be his peak.


thats atleast deserving of being put in the same tier, please.

Dirk is awesome, so I'm not gonna sit here and hate on the guy.

I just feel that Kobe's career resume is undoubtedly better, and it's not particularity close...

[ralph_i_el]

Dirk is awesome, so I'm not gonna sit here and hate on the guy.

I just feel that Kobe's career resume is undoubtedly better, and it's not particularity close...

The best players that Dirk played with in their primes are Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler. He had Nash pre-prime and Kidd post-prime.

Rings are a team accomplishment :confusedshrug:

[bobopenguin]

dumb thread is dumb.

deal with it. kobe is top 10 of all time.
doesnt matter what u said, it wont change a thing.

so do urself a favor, stop posting about kobe.

[3ball]

and kobes prime averages werent even from 2009 or 2010


:lol
When MJ won his 6th ring, he was 35 years old.

His stats and performance during his 2nd three-peat were easily superior to kobe's championship years as a 1st option (2008-2010) - Kobe was 29-31 years old at that time, which is every player's uber-prime (highest combination of athleticism and knowledge in a player's career).

[ralph_i_el]

dumb thread is dumb.

deal with it. kobe is top 10 of all time.
doesnt matter what u said, it wont change a thing.

so do urself a favor, stop posting about kobe.

dumb post is dumb.

deal with it. kobe isn't top 10 of all time.
doesnt matter what u said, it wont change a thing.

so do urself a favor, stop posting

[catch24]

The best players that Dirk played with in their primes are Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler. He had Nash pre-prime and Kidd post-prime.

Rings are a team accomplishment :confusedshrug:

If people are willing to say Dirk is RIGHT THERE with Kobe, statistically and in-terms of impact, then Kobe is right there with MJ during his second threepeat, so basically 1995-1998.

If you guys are being consistent, then I can agree there.

[catch24]

^Oh, and that Jordan's rings, especially during the second threepeat, are a "team accomplishment" as well.

[ralph_i_el]

If people are willing to say Dirk is RIGHT THERE with Kobe, statistically and in-terms of impact, then Kobe is right there with MJ during his second threepeat, so basically 1995-1998.

If you guys are being consistent, then I can agree there.

:wtf: explain this

[catch24]

:wtf: explain this

Kobe in his prime, statistically, is literally RIGHT THERE with second threepeat MJ. If you think I'm joking, look that shit up. :lol

[3ball]

Oh, and that Jordan's rings, especially during the second threepeat, are a "team accomplishment" as well.


:facepalm... The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring, hit every clutch shot, and carry the team, while Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals, and only 17/7/5 on 40.8% for 1996-1998 playoffs as a whole.

Meanwhile, Rodman averaged 4 ppg and 8 rpg in entire 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals - he was an ordinary player for 2 of the Bulls 3 championship runs - but the Bulls were so famous at the time, that we didn't notice Rodman had gotten old in 1997 and 1998 - we didn't notice until he went to the Lakers in 1999 - but he was actually that caliber in 1997 and 1998.

MJ carried his team more than any of his peers carried their teams... Heck, he 3-peated with just 1 HOF in Pippen - that is nothing compared to:

HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe in his prime, statistically, is literally RIGHT THERE with second threepeat MJ. If you think I'm joking, look that shit up. :lol

looked it up, and yeah Kobe has a couple of seasons right there when he was chucking up a storm when his stats are close to past-his-prime MJ.

And? Plenty of all time greats have absolute statistical primes that are right around 2nd 3-peat MJ.

[catch24]

looked it up, and yeah Kobe has a couple of seasons right there when he was chucking up a storm when his stats are close to past-his-prime MJ.

And? Plenty of all time greats have absolute statistical primes that are right around 2nd 3-peat MJ.

MJ wasn't out of his prime in 1996 - and Kobe's teams needed his "chucking" (they were HISTORICALLY awful). 2008 Kobe is up there with any version of second threepeat MJ, statistically.

You guys love comparing all these guys to Kobe, so what's wrong with me comparing a so called ~11-20 player with the proclaimed GOAT? The so called player who has virtually the same stats as the GOAT during his second threepeat. :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

MJ wasn't out of his prime in 1996 - and Kobe's teams needed his "chucking" (they were HISTORICALLY awful). 2008 Kobe is up there with any version of second threepeat MJ, statistically.

You guys love comparing all these guys to Kobe, so what's wrong with me comparing a so called ~11-20 player with the proclaimed GOAT? The so called player who has virtually the same stats as the GOAT during his second threepeat. :confusedshrug:

compare away, he's just not there man.

http://i.imgur.com/xWcVHqq.gif

I was gonna keep debating...but then I got high

[Smoke117]

Overrated when he's unfairly put into the GOAT tier? I agree, but in a general, and objective sense? No way.

Where do you have him all-time, and why is he MOAT iyo?

Because people actually believe he could possibly be top 5. Even putting him in top 10 is a stretch as far as I'm concerned.

Probably the issue that drives me most insane is that anyone could possibly believe he is on the same tier as Jordan. I don't like Jordan and everybody knows that...so it's not like I'm biased. The fact of the matter is like I said in another thread...you don't even have to go past defense to make this assertation either. Jordan is legitimately a top 5 perimeter defense player all time. (on an amusing note I've seen jordan stans on youtube try to argue his impact defensively was bigger...yes BIGGER than Hakeem and David Robinson...so they are just as bad as kobe stans...just in different ways) You'd be hard pressed to find any season besides 2000 (and even that is iffy with Eddie Jones) where Kobe is even the best defensive player at sg. He just frankly didn't care that much after 2000 to more than a good defensive player.

Bringing up that he was expending all this energy on offense is bullshit too...since Jordan was expending just as much...just like Dwyane Wade was in 2009. Dwade was better than Kobe EVER was defensively in 09 and he was having to drop 30 points while essentially being the teams pg...so Kobe has zero excuses for his lack of consistent effort defensively. He should have never tried so hard in 2000 if he didn't want people to hold him up to any kind of standard. I don't even dislike Kobe all that much in general...I just can't stand the way his fans put him on a pedestal he doesn't deserve. I mostly just say what I say about him day to day here to get a rise out of his stans...it amuses me.

[kennethgriffin]

34 year old MJ was in his 13th season

28/6/3 = 1st team all nba


30 year old 13th season kobe was 2008-09

27/5/5 = 1st team all nba

31 year old 14th season kobe was 2009-10

27/5/5 = 1st team all nba

32 year old 15th season kobe was 2010-11

25/5/5 = 1st team all nba

33 year old 16th season kobe was 2011-12

28/5/5 = 1st team all nba

34 year old 17th season kobe was 2012-13

27/6/6 = 1st team all nba




and prime kobe was 2005-06

35/5/5 = 1st team all nba





the only reason kobe didnt put up those same numbers past 34 was due to the achilles injury.... and its impossible to argue how either would do at 35,36 cause mj was retired and kobe had the achilles injury


different timelines, different situations, different mileage, one retired, one got hurt...



impossible to compare either situation...

[Soundwave]

There's no shame in not stacking up to Durant.

If Durant starts winning titles in a year or two, people will start talking about him as one of the greatest to ever play.

If Durant had 5 titles (even if 3 were as option B) I'm sure many people would say he's a top 10 player of all time.

But that's the "if" isn't it? He's got to go out and earn those titles.

[Smoke117]

34 year old MJ was in his 13th season

28/6/3 = 1st team all nba


30 year old 13th season kobe was 2008-09

27/5/5 = 1st team all nba

31 year old 14th season kobe was 2009-10

27/5/5 = 1st team all nba

32 year old 15th season kobe was 2010-11

25/5/5 = 1st team all nba

33 year old 16th season kobe was 2011-12

28/5/5 = 1st team all nba

34 year old 17th season kobe was 2012-13

27/6/6 = 1st team all nba




and prime kobe was 2005-06

35/5/5 = 1st team all nba





the only reason kobe didnt put up those same numbers past 34 was due to the achilles injury.... and its impossible to argue how either would do at 35,36 cause mj was retired and kobe had the achilles injury


different timelines, different situations, different mileage, one retired, one got hurt...



impossible to compare either situation...

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b8b88bbd0e19b21b62067095d47a1a64/tumblr_inline_nily4zXlls1ssjkpg.gif

[3ball]

looked it up, and yeah Kobe has a couple of seasons right there when he was chucking up a storm when his stats are close to past-his-prime MJ.

And? Plenty of all time greats have absolute statistical primes that are right around 2nd 3-peat MJ.


A few might... But no one had his goat leadership or clutch.. 4th quarter scoring shown below - no one can match this year-in, year-out:

MJ 1997 Playoffs: 9.6
MJ 1998 Playoffs (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4): 9.0

MJ 1993 Finals: 10.7
MJ 1997 Finals: 10.4
MJ 1998 Finals: 10.3


MJ's 1997 Finals was the greatest clutch performance for a playoff series of all time.. Of course, in 1998, he showed us the greatest clutch minute of basketball that anyone's ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH4oEF1mqPc&t=0m35s


The 2nd three-peat MJ was one of the league's best defenders, and the league's best scorer and clutch performer... Scoring + clutch > any stat category.
.

[bobopenguin]

dumb post is dumb.

deal with it. kobe isn't top 10 of all time.
doesnt matter what u said, it wont change a thing.

so do urself a favor, stop posting

not acknowledged. sorry.

[Smoke117]

A few might... But no one had his goat leadership or clutch.. 4th quarter scoring shown below - no one can match this year-in, year-out:

MJ 1997 Playoffs: 9.6
MJ 1998 Playoffs (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4): 9.0

MJ 1993 Finals: 10.7
MJ 1997 Finals: 10.4
MJ 1998 Finals: 10.3


MJ's 1997 Finals was the greatest clutch performance for a playoff series of all time.. Of course, in 1998, he showed us the greatest clutch minute of basketball that anyone's ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH4oEF1mqPc&t=0m35s


The 2nd three-peat MJ was one of the league's best defenders, and the league's best scorer and clutch performer... Scoring + clutch > any stat category.
.

..yeah assaulting your own teammates and tearing them down...that's leadership. Jordan is lucky he had a buffer between him and the rest of his teammates...SCOTTIE PIPPEN.

[Heavincent]

Kobe is overrated...

If you're a simpleton and have a poor understanding of the game. Anybody who has a semi-decent understanding of basketball acknowledges his greatness and place in history.

[Smoke117]

Kobe is overrated...

If you're a simpleton and have a poor understanding of the game. Anybody who has a semi-decent understanding of basketball acknowledges his greatness and place in history.

By you're a "simpleton and have a poor understanding of the game" do you mean you're a not a biased little bitch who started getting into basketball when Kobe was just starting? Using actual grammar doesn't make you right...it just makes you desperate. Because you don't go full retard and can type you think your opinion is above the ilk of your brother stans? lol. Adorable. You're not even worth the coffee can walter bought for donny.

[Heavincent]

By you're a "simpleton and have a poor understanding of the game" do you mean you're a not a biased little bitch who started getting into basketball when Kobe was just starting? Using actual grammar doesn't make you right...it just makes you desperate. Because you don't go full retard and can type you think your opinion is above the ilk of your brother stans? lol. Adorable. You're not even worth the coffee can walter bought for donny.

No, you ARE a biased little bitch if you don't understand Kobe's profound impact. It means you're so petty and butthurt that you deny what's happening right in front of you.

[ImKobe]

^^^^ This is backed up by stats - even though MJ faced lower league-wide DRtg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11606787&postcount=422) in regular season and playoffs during his 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe did during championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), MJ still had better performance and stats during this time:


REGULAR SEASON: 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ:... 29.6 ppg... 48.2% fg... 2 MVP
Kobe: 27.4 ppg... 46.1% fg... 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS:

MJ:... 31.4 ppg... 45.9% fg
Kobe: 29.8 PPG... 46.4% fg


FINALS

MJ:... 31.1 ppg... 43.4% fg... 3 FMVP
Kobe: 29.2 ppg... 41.3% fg... 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


Let's include all of the averages, and not just ppg and FG%

Kobe
29.8/5.7/5.5 on 46.4/34.4/84.5, 22.4 FGA, 8.6 FTA
Jordan
31.4/6.0/4.1 on 45.9/29.7/81.9, 24.7 FGA, 9.6 FTA

Jordan took 2.3 more FGA and 1 more FTA to average 1.6 more points per game...Kobe obviously had a bigger role as a playmaker and he was the better shooter...in fact, Jordan's scoring efficiency would be even worse if the 3pt line hadn't been shortened from 94-95 up to the 97-98 season...when his 3pt shot took a considerable dive..he shot over 40% from deep in the 96 but he shot only 30% in 98..his overall PPG would be nearly a point lower had the 3pt line never been shortened to begin with.


Overall, you can make a clear case that 08-10 Kobe was better than 96-98 MJ, considering that Kobe was a more efficient scorer by the numbers. Jordan having more success had more to do with the shortened 3pt line and him having better teammates. Kobe probably 3-peats if Ariza and Bynum don't get injured in 08.

[3ball]

Kobe was bigger playmaker


MJ's assist averages are better than Kobe's when you consider turnovers - Kobe averaged almost 50% more turnovers than MJ in RS and PO, and almost twice as many in the Finals:


Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... REGULAR SEASON

Jordan.. 29.6 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.2 TO, 48.2% FG, 22.9 FGA
Kobe.... 27.4 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.0 TO, 46.1% FG, 21.0 FGA


PLAYOFFS:

Jordan.. 31.4 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 4.1 APG, 2.3 TO, 45.9% FG, 24.7 FGA
Kobe.... 29.8 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.5 APG, 3.1 TO, 46.4% FG, 22.4 FGA


FINALS

Jordan.. 31.1 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.0 TO, 43.4% FG, 24.7 FGA
Kobe.... 29.2 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.7 TO, 41.3% FG, 23.8 FGA

Source: basketball-reference.com
.

[tragicbronson]

Kobe is overrated...

If you're a simpleton and have a poor understanding of the game. Anybody who has a semi-decent understanding of basketball acknowledges his greatness and place in history.

:cheers:

Finally someone, people think if they post these bs stats like win shares, defensive win shares etc that they have like great knowledge of basketball, they are winning an argument with stats they "prove" that they are right. He is locked in my top 10

[f0und]

VERY overrated

if you only listened to his stans and some media pundits, you would believe that he's the GOAT or at least GOAT tier.

they say he's the most skilled ever, but can only manage a career high of 46.9% fg.

they say he has great bball iq, but he's been criticized throughout his career for chucking dumb shots and freezing out his teammates.

they say he's the clutchest, but is a career 28% shooter in clutch situations.

they say his scoring prowess is unstoppable, but he has very few memorable playoff and finals performances.

they say he's an all time great defender, citing his All Def awards, but any objective fan knows most of those, if not all are undeserved.

they act like he's a self made legend made purely because of his unparalleled basketball abilities, but any young perimeter rookie couldnt dream of a better situation to start their career with. coming to one of the most storied franchises in sports, who were at the time elite or borderline elite. and also just signed shaq, who was just entering his absolute prime. it couldnt be any more favorable.

if he were drafted to a mid tier or small market team and had just let his pure basketball abilities do the talking, winning and losing, he'd prob be at around 25 on the alltime list. i have him at about 15-20. the media has him about 8-13. but his stans believes he's as high as top 5.

[catch24]

compare away, he's just not there man.

I was gonna keep debating...but then I got high

You wouldn't debate that, because it goes against your anti Kobe agenda. :oldlol:

Applying your logic, half of Jordan's titles are nothing more than "team accomplishments" (this means we're not giving him any INDIVIDUAL credit).

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

3 point shooting

Jordan - .327 (1778 attempts)
Kobe - .334 (5079 attempts)

Free throw shooting

Jordan - .835
Kobe - .837

Adjusted 2PT%

Jordan - .520 (league average at .482)
Kobe - .486 (league average at .455)

Kobe was 3.1% above league average
Jordan was 3.8% above league average

Jordan - 1.354 PPS (league average at 1.194 PPS)
Kobe - 1.300 PPS (league average at 1.143 PPS)

Jordan shot 13.41% above league average (or .160 PPS higher)
Kobe shot 13.76%% above league average (or .157 PPS higher)

Wait, what? It wasn't that low even in 2003-2004, where the league average 2pt% was .460

[ralph_i_el]

Wait, what? It wasn't that low even in 2003-2004, where the league average 2pt% was .460

his stats are BS

[3ball]

MJ's assist averages are better than Kobe's when you consider turnovers - Kobe averaged almost 50% more turnovers than MJ in RS and PO, and almost twice as many in the Finals:


Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... REGULAR SEASON

Jordan.. 29.6 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.2 TO, 48.2% FG, 22.9 FGA
Kobe.... 27.4 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.0 TO, 46.1% FG, 21.0 FGA


PLAYOFFS:

Jordan.. 31.4 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 4.1 APG, 2.3 TO, 45.9% FG, 24.7 FGA
Kobe.... 29.8 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.5 APG, 3.1 TO, 46.4% FG, 22.4 FGA


FINALS

Jordan.. 31.1 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.0 TO, 43.4% FG, 24.7 FGA
Kobe.... 29.2 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.7 TO, 41.3% FG, 23.8 FGA

Source: basketball-reference.com





Overall, you can make a clear case that 08-10 Kobe was better than 96-98 MJ



No, you can't - not only did he have far more accolades during that time (2 mvp, 3 fmvp, 3 rings) Jordan's 2nd three-peat stats are simply better than Kobe's in RS, PO and Finals - he scored more on better efficiency, with less TO's.. MJ was also far better and more dominant in the clutch and 4th quarter.

Of course, MJ was the far better defender... More steals, blocks, lower DRtg every year, etc.. Then there was MJ's leadership:


PHIL JACKSON:

"One of the biggest differences from my perspective was Michael's superior skills as a leader. Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones."

[No Sir]

No, you can't - not only did he have far more accolades during that time (2 mvp, 3 fmvp, 3 rings) Jordan's 2nd three-peat stats are simply better than Kobe's in RS, PO and Finals - he scored more on better efficiency, with less TO's.. MJ was also far better and more dominant in the clutch and 4th quarter.

Of course, MJ was the far better defender... More steals, blocks, lower DRtg every year, etc.. Then there was MJ's leadership:


PHIL JACKSON:

"One of the biggest differences from my perspective was Michael's superior skills as a leader. Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones."
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs7/4330783_o.gif

[aquaadverse]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs7/4330783_o.gif

You probably have a large collection of this stuff and use it every day.

[kshutts1]

Because people actually believe he could possibly be top 5. Even putting him in top 10 is a stretch as far as I'm concerned.

Probably the issue that drives me most insane is that anyone could possibly believe he is on the same tier as Jordan. I don't like Jordan and everybody knows that...so it's not like I'm biased. The fact of the matter is like I said in another thread...you don't even have to go past defense to make this assertation either. Jordan is legitimately a top 5 perimeter defense player all time. (on an amusing note I've seen jordan stans on youtube try to argue his impact defensively was bigger...yes BIGGER than Hakeem and David Robinson...so they are just as bad as kobe stans...just in different ways) You'd be hard pressed to find any season besides 2000 (and even that is iffy with Eddie Jones) where Kobe is even the best defensive player at sg. He just frankly didn't care that much after 2000 to more than a good defensive player.

Bringing up that he was expending all this energy on offense is bullshit too...since Jordan was expending just as much...just like Dwyane Wade was in 2009. Dwade was better than Kobe EVER was defensively in 09 and he was having to drop 30 points while essentially being the teams pg...so Kobe has zero excuses for his lack of consistent effort defensively. He should have never tried so hard in 2000 if he didn't want people to hold him up to any kind of standard. I don't even dislike Kobe all that much in general...I just can't stand the way his fans put him on a pedestal he doesn't deserve. I mostly just say what I say about him day to day here to get a rise out of his stans...it amuses me.
Cosigned all but the bold. Literally all of the rest.

As for the bold, Kobe deserves mention in the 9-13 range. That obviously includes spots 9 and 10, both of which are in the top 10. Anything outside of the 9-13 range is difficult to defend, IMO.

As for the last bolded point... I just don't share that because I don't try to get a "rise" out of anyone on here.

[Stu Jackson]

when people start putting him with the best men to ever play it is overrating him

he was a nice player but nobody at the time thought he was better than tmac

it may be fun to make snarky comments about him being a legend but you are hurting kobes legacy by pitting him against players of a higher pedigree

he wouldnt sniff anybodys all time starting 5 and the only reason he is near the second team is because off guard has so little depth all time