Observations of Lebron's game

[3ball]

.
The stats prove Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume

We didn't need the 2015 playoffs to prove Lebron's inability to shoot well at high volume - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is horrible at the additional midrange required of high volume shooting.

27 shot attempts per game (Lebron's average in 2015 Playoffs) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.


Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team

He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. There's no danger in letting Lebron shoot 39% at 33 fga, so there was no need to take the ball out of his hands to prevent the high volume in the 2015 Finals.. Lebron's inability to have good efficiency at high volume allowed the Warriors to permit his secluded 1-on-1 clearouts all series long - it was part of their exploitative strategy.. The best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over..

This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team (due to his poor midrange and resulting inability to shoot well at high volumes) is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.

Also, no one has ever gotten such secluded clearouts, probably in history, than what Lebron got in 2015 Finals.. So there's no excuse for Lebron's 39% shooting (other than him not being capable of good efficiency at high volume).


36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's absolute max capability at high shot volume

The lack of double-teaming in the 2015 Finals provided Lebron with optimal conditions to shoot the best percentage possible at the higher volume - this turned out to be 39%.. 39% is Lebron's ceiling at higher shot volume.. Again, this would never be good enough to win a championship - when MJ averaged 41/9/6/51% in 1993, it was BARELY enough for the Bulls to win because remarkably, both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in those Finals.


Lebron's lack of midrange ability didn't just prevent him from good efficiency at high volumes and subsequent double-teams, but it also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when midrange was the primary option remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


Faster pace wouldn't help Lebron in the 80's because the stats show that pace ALWAYS slows down in the playoffs, regardless of era

Pace was 94.0 in both the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, which is lower than the 2015 playoffs (94.4).. Playoff pace was often MUCH lower, like in the mid-90's - i.e. pace was 87.4 in the 1996 playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats


Lebron's point-guard-style and ball-dominance turns a normally high-assisted position (sf) into a low-assisted position, thus reducing the playmaking capacity and strategic options of his teams compared to MJ's

MJ was a highly-assisted, OFF-BALL player, which maximized the playmaking capacity of the team, since teammates have more opportunity to throw him an assist.. Otoh, Lebron's low-assisted, ball-dominant style reduces the playmaking capacity of the team and his team's strategic options (Lebron MUST dominate the ball) - this monopolizing, ball-dominant style craters the stats of good teammates (Bosh, Love, Wade)... Since Lebron's teammates can't play to capacity alongside his ball-dominance, the TEAM can't play to capacity, and routinely underachieves (they lost as the 1 seed from 2009-2011... and they were blown away despite having at least equal talent in 2014).

Otoh, MJ's quick-decision, off-ball game fit seamlessly alongside any teammate, so guys like Pippen, Kukoc and Grant played at FULL capacity alongside MJ - i.e. Pippen averaged 21/8/7 in 1992, which is the same as the 22/9/6 he averaged in 1994 without MJ.. Ditto for Grant - he got 14/10 in 1992, which is the same as 15/10 he got in 1994.. When MJ came back for a full season in 1996, his off-ball game allowed him to simply add his league-leading scoring right on top of what was already there, without diminishing anything - that's the main reason the Bulls went from 2nd Round team back to 3-peat status (which is a massive jump, the GOAT impact on a team). Since MJ's teammates played to capacity alongside MJ's quick decision, off-ball game, the TEAM played to capacity, and never underachieved - Jordan NEVER lost to a team with equal or worse talent.


Lebron's suboptimal style prevents his team from playing an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).. Since Lebron's teams can't play an optimal brand of basketball, that leaves them susceptible to getting upset by less talented teams who CAN play a superior brand of basketball to overcome the talent factor.

Lebron was upset by equal or less talented teams in 2009 ECSF, 2011 Finals, and 2014 Finals - in those series, Lebron's opponent overcame a stalemate or disdavantage in talent by playing a vastly superior brand of basketball.. This never happened to MJ's teams - his teams played an optimal, equal opportunity brand of basketball, so less-talented opponents couldn't upset MJ's teams by playing a superior brand of basketball.. MJ's teams were never upset or underachieved - he simply never lost to a team with equal or worse talent in playoffs.


When Lebron's teams lose to teams of equal or lesser talent, his stats are "empty", since it was his suboptimal style that allows opponents the opportunity to play a better brand of basketball

Lebron's style promoted bad chemistry with Wade.. Their well-publicized on-off stats showed the Heat were better when they were not on the floor together - suboptimal chemistry and brand of basketball between the two stars left the team open to being upset by equal or less-talented teams playing a better brand of basketball.. Anytime this happened, Lebron's stats were "empty", since his suboptimal style created the opportunity for the opponent to play a better style and overcome any talent factor.

Given his previous upsets in 2009 and 2011, we can now see that Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely interrupted a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).

Further evidence of suboptimal chemistry and brand of basketball, is that Bosh and Wade's stats were way down alongside Lebron.. Regardless of all these issues, the team still went 2/4 due to sheer talent - but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs), rendering Lebron's stats empty.. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.


Lebron is only elite as the primary ballhandler - so he can't get elite stats in an equal opportunity offense, since that requires elite ability in ALL areas, including primary ballhandler, off-ball, midrange, post and isolations.

If Lebron played for the Spurs, he wouldn't be able to get elite stats unless Popovich abandoned his equal opportunity offense and let Lebron dominate the ball - then the Spurs would come up short and you guys would be complaining how Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are garbage..

It's a shame, because if Lebron could average 33/6/6 in an equal opportunity offense like the Spurs, he'd never lose in the Finals just like MJ... But that's the whole point - he can't get elite stats in an equal opportunity offense, because he's only elite as the primary ballhandler.

Primary ballhandler is the most stat-padding position on the floor... I guess that's why MJ's stats were so insane the one time he was a primary ballhandler consistently (30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games).. That's better than Lebron has ever done in an entire career as primary ballhandler.

MJ was better at Lebron's bread and butter (primary ballhandler) and obviously he was FAR better off-ball, isolations, midrange and post.. This superior versatility as shown by elite ability in all areas is why MJ could get 33/6/6 in an equal opportunity offense, or 41/9/6/51 on high volume (33 fga).. Meanwhile, Lebron can't do either of these things (get elite stats in an equal opportunity offense or have good efficiency at high volume).
.

[90sgoat]

Hey 3Ball,

I signed up just to say we're millions of lurkers watching around the world who appreciate the consistent smackdowns of these dumbass kids and their hero Bran.

[StrongLurk]

Hey 3Ball,

I signed up just to say we're millions of lurkers watching around the world who appreciate the consistent smackdowns of these dumbass kids and their hero Bran.

3ball created an alt and is talking to himself :facepalm

[Marchesk]

3ball created an alt and is talking to himself :facepalm

Isn't that the case for half these threads? There's simply no way you can still get mileage off Kobe threads without a bunch of alts, right? Tell that's so.

[riseagainst]

Hey 3Ball,

I signed up just to say we're millions of lurkers watching around the world who appreciate the consistent smackdowns of these dumbass kids and their hero Bran.


:lol
:roll:

[3ball]

:lol
:roll:
I'm not 90sgoat.. The mods can probably verify that pretty easily.

[ralph_i_el]

LeBron age 30: 2/6 in the finals
MJ age 30: 3/3 in the finals

MJ age 22: swept twice in the first round
LeBron age 22: lost in 2nd round, swept in finals

but yeah, bron really can't shoot. Check his midrange stats on bball ref. It's really ugly

[90sgoat]

I'm not 90sgoat.. The mods can probably verify that pretty easily.

Damn right bro.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6978/1067/1600/norm%20e%20clif.0.jpg

[DonDadda59]

LeBron age 30: 2/6 in the finals
MJ age 30: 3/3 in the finals

Bron had a 3 year head start while playing in the worst conference in NBA History (post merger). Kobe was 3/3 in the finals by age 23, 5/7 by 30. Means jack shit.


MJ age 22: swept twice in the first round
LeBron age 22: lost in 2nd round, swept in finals

Jordan was swept twice by Larry Bird's Celtics, a GOAT team candidate, in an Eastern Conference that was ultra strong. Even the GOAT putting up 44/6/6/2 (51% FG) and dropping a still record 63 points wasn't enough.

Bron's Cavs wouldn't have gotten a single win in those circumstances either. Notice how he also got swept the moment he saw a team that was good but nowhere near the realm of those Celtics squads.

[ralph_i_el]

Bron had a 3 year head start while playing in the worst conference in NBA History (post merger). Kobe was 3/3 in the finals by age 23, 5/7 by 30. Means jack shit.



Jordan was swept twice by Larry Bird's Celtics, a GOAT team candidate, in an Eastern Conference that was ultra strong. Even the GOAT putting up 44/6/6/2 (51% FG) and dropping a still record 63 points wasn't enough.

Bron's Cavs wouldn't have gotten a single win in those circumstances either. Notice how he also got swept the moment he saw a team that was good but nowhere near the realm of those Celtics squads.

Context only matters when it's in MJ's favor I guess.
As soon as LeBron got support as good as any of MJ's championship teams, he went 2/3.

After Bird's Celtics dropped off, how good was the East of MJ's championship period? I was just a kid, so I don't really know as much about the teams that didn't win rings. I've heard people say the 90's east was pretty weak outside of the Bulls and Pistons.

[DonDadda59]

Context only matters when it's in MJ's favor I guess.
As soon as LeBron got support as good as any of MJ's championship teams, he went 2/3.

After Bird's Celtics dropped off, how good was the East of MJ's championship period? I was just a kid, so I don't really know as much about the teams that didn't win rings. I've heard people say the 90's east was pretty weak outside of the Bulls and Pistons.

Then you've been listening to a bunch of idiots. :lol

The Pistons were irrelevant after '91.

90s East- Jordan's Bulls, Shaq's Magic, Ewing's Knicks, Daugherty/Price's Cavs, Miller's Pacers, Zo/Hardaway's Heat, Even the Hornets and the Hawks strung together a few consecutive 50+ win seasons.

And overall, the early 90s had the most parity between the conferences. By the mid-late 90s, the East was stacked. In '96-'97 alone, the East had 6 50-win teams, 2 of those winning 60.

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

The 80s was all about the stacked East while the West was extremely top heavy (Lakers obviously) but weak overall. And no one needs to go into how much of a joke the East has been since the 00s began, especially in recent years.

[Trollsmasher]

what's this meme with Bran not being double teamed in the Finals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinqVE0yp4M

[sdot_thadon]

Context only matters when it's in MJ's favor I guess.
As soon as LeBron got support as good as any of MJ's championship teams, he went 2/3.

After Bird's Celtics dropped off, how good was the East of MJ's championship period? I was just a kid, so I don't really know as much about the teams that didn't win rings. I've heard people say the 90's east was pretty weak outside of the Bulls and Pistons.
It probably was better than the recent east but don't let anyone tell you it was some sort of hard era, it wasnt.

[3ball]

but don't let anyone tell you it was some sort of hard era, it wasnt.


MJ defeated Shaq/Penny, while Lebron only needed to beat Hibbert/George - that's a massive drop-off.

It's common knowledge that MJ faced the far superior competition:


http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg



MJ's style was more effective.. First of all, he had good efficiency at high shot volume, since his efficiency was elite at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters. Otoh, we saw Lebron's 1-on-1 fail in the 2015 Finals because he COULDN'T shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact.

In addition to shooting well at high volume, MJ's style also succeeded because his buckets usually came AFTER running off-ball, so he didn't use live-dribbles as often - his lack of ball-dominance allowed the Bulls to run an equal-opportunity offense (triangle) and therefore the best brand of basketball.. This is another stark contrast from today's so-called best player - Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from running equal-opportunity offenses and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Also, there's a 3rd reason why MJ's style ended up working for the Bulls - MJ's off-ball style of play increased the APG and assist percentage of teammates like Pippen, while Lebron's ball-dominance craters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the APG and assist % of his teammates (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams).. With Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have lower assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).

[3ball]

.
The win-totals of teams MJ played during his 24 game stretch at PG:


Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
45.1 wins
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[3ball]

MJ age 22: swept twice in the first round
LeBron age 22: lost in 2nd round, swept in finals


Obviously, if 22-year old Lebron had faced the Spurs' championship team and #1 defense in the first round, he would've been swept in the first round instead of the Finals.

That's what happened to 22-year-old MJ - he faced a championship team and #1 defense in the first round (1986 Celtics), due to superior competition in the Eastern Conference.. But his stats were literally TWICE that of Lebron's.

Here are both players' performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at 22 years old:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/6 on 35%

[Jasper]

I'd have to say OP has an argument.

All of the coachs in the NBA , if asked which would you prefer, having bron or not having bron.....

what would you think they would say ????

/

[3ball]

All of the coaches in the NBA , if asked which would you prefer, having bron or not having bron.....

what would you think they would say ????

/
That's a poor counterargument to anything raised in the OP..

Like, I'd rather have Andrew Bogut than not have him, but that doesn't mean he holds a candle to Jordan.. :confusedshrug:

The reality is that Lebron's ball-dominant style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play - otoh, most championship-level teams like the Warriors or Spurs use cutting edge strategy and play an optimal brand of basketball.. Specifically, they move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions.. Guys like Diaw and Patty Mills don't just wait around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, Mills and Diaw are tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, role players like Mills, Diaw, Kerr, and Longley play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now.. That's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from a frontcourt position prevents his teams from ever using optimal, cutting edge strategy... And it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.

Instead of having the capacity within his game to foster the growth of teammates, superior strategy, and an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, Lebron can only go 2/4 by teaming up with unprecedented supporting talent (i.e. a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, Bosh).. Lebron is really a Karl Malone-level player that teamed up with Drexler and Mchale to go 2/4.
.

[ralph_i_el]

That's a poor counterargument to anything raised in the OP..

Like, I'd rather have Andrew Bogut than not have him, but that doesn't mean he holds a candle to Jordan.. :confusedshrug:

The reality is that Lebron's ball-dominant style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play - otoh, most championship-level teams like the Warriors or Spurs use cutting edge strategy and play an optimal brand of basketball.. Specifically, they move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions.. Guys like Diaw and Patty Mills don't just wait around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, Mills and Diaw are tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, role players like Mills, Diaw, Kerr, and Longley play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now.. That's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from a frontcourt position prevents his teams from ever using optimal, cutting edge strategy... And it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.

Instead of having the capacity within his game to foster the growth of teammates, superior strategy, and an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, Lebron can only go 2/4 by teaming up with unprecedented supporting talent (i.e. a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, Bosh).. Lebron is really a Karl Malone-level player that teamed up with Drexler and Mchale to go 2/4.
.
:wtf: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/s4s/image/1386/43/1386439485726.jpg

It's funny, When LeBron first went to the Heat, the % of his baskets that were assisted dropped significantly....for 1 season. Then it went up to career high level the next three years. Dropped off again when he had an entire new crew of teammates. I'd bet he scores more off the ball next season by a significant amount.

[90sgoat]

Here's the deal.

We all appreciate 3Ball taking the time to meticously back up his claims about Lebron and MJ because we know a lot bball fans are fat basement dwellers who never played the game.

If you know and play basketball the eye test has been enough for years to tell that Lebron simply isn't that skilled a basketball player.

When you get to my age where you start to wear khaki pants and drink alone in the evening, you don't get phased by hype anymore.

Watching Lebron is has been clear for years that:

1) Lebron lacks a first step, this means he needs a pick to penetrate, which makes him predictablen and requires a power forward who can shoot the long jumper (Bosh, Love). Most guys who can shoot long jumpers are afraid of the post, so Lebron led teams will never have a bruising low post power forward.

2) Lebron doesn't pass into the post, which means you never have to guard the entry pass, which could have given him more room for that first step.

3) Lebron has poor body control and flexibility. He gets around this by committing offensive fouls on almost every drive, but it also means he actually finishes quite poorly around the basket if a big man is there (Hibbert, Duncan).

4) Lebron has no off ball game, which means you can generally guard him straight up with one guy during long stretches (Igoudala, Kawhi). Had he been able to move off ball, he could have gotten a lot of mismatches going on, but he can't.

5) Lebron bricks every mid range. Lebron has no jumper.

In fact Lebron needs an overwhelming amount of ref help in the form of bailout calls on his below the basket layups and his stiff arm drives.

I've said it again and again, Lebron is not elite tier, he doesn't have the elite skill of almost all top 10 players. He has no skyhook, no unblockable fade away, no finger roll, no ability to hit contested jumper, no ankle breaking crossover.

That means Lebron simply cannot be trusted to 'go get a basket'. Teaming up with Wade was all about that. Wade can get you a basket because he is skilled. Lebron is like Pippen, who needs Kukoc to get you a basket.

It's no shame, he is still a great player, just not a top 10 player, he is in the same tier as the Karl Malones, Moses Malones and Charles Barkleys. So close, but not good enough.

[livinglegend]

Get a job! :lol :lol

[3ball]

WTF? (Lebron is a Karl Malone-level player???)


If Karl teamed up with a super-team in a weak conference, he'd disappoint and go 2/6 just like Lebron..

Lebron's game is on the Karl Malone-Barkley-Jerry West level... He's not on the MJ/Magic/Larry level.. The OP describes exactly why - for one, Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume like MJ, because he's bad at the additional mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - this means Lebron isn't capable of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume like MJ did.

Compared to Bird - other than defense, I can't think of one aspect of Lebron's game that is better - Bird is better in virtually every category.. I guess Lebron plays PG better - but it's suboptimal for the SF to play PG, so that's not an advantage - the other team WANTS Lebron playing PG, just like they want him shooting a lot (because then he'll shoot poorly).

As for Magic... :facepalm .... Lebron averages HALF the assists of Magic - and his attempts to play PG from the SF position hurt team chemistry.. Also, he has half the leadership and half the clutch of Magic.

[ralph_i_el]

If Karl teamed up with a super-team in a weak conference, he'd disappoint and go 2/6 just like Lebron..

Lebron's game is on the Karl Malone-Barkley-Jerry West level... He's not on the MJ/Magic/Larry level.. The OP describes exactly why - for one, Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume like MJ, because he's bad at the additional mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - this means Lebron isn't capable of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume like MJ did.

Compared to Bird - other than defense, I can't think of one aspect of Lebron's game that is better - Bird is better in virtually every category.. I guess Lebron plays PG better - but it's suboptimal for the SF to play PG, so that's not an advantage - the other team WANTS Lebron playing PG, just like they want him shooting a lot (because then he'll shoot poorly).

As for Magic... :facepalm .... Lebron averages HALF the assists of Magic - and his attempts to play PG from the SF position hurt team chemistry.. Also, he has half the leadership and half the clutch of Magic.


I agree that LeBron's jack-of-all-trades nature makes it harder for him to fit in with some teammates due to skill overlap. I agree that sometimes his style of play isn't the optimal strategy for team basketball.

HOWEVER.....he's been a one man army of destruction for over a decade now. He has weaknesses....but he has so many strengths too. Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.

We all know how good Wade and Bosh were, but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?

He's a top-10 player :confusedshrug: sorry. MJ's the GOAT, not many people are going to debate you on that one man. I'm not doing this for the trolling, I'm doing it for the truth.

[Uncle Drew]

Hey 3Ball,

I signed up just to say we're millions of lurkers watching around the world who appreciate the consistent smackdowns of these dumbass kids and their hero Bran.
:roll:

How pathetic and how obvious. 3ball takes another L.

[Smoke117]

I've never experienced anything like this...someone who isn't just beating a dead horse...he's literally beating the dust of the bones that was that dead horse. Michael Jordan is better than Lebron james...nooooooo, really?

I've never understood why any of you even humor this prick, but then I thought about it...and I do the same thing with Kobe stans. I guess its just something to waste time away while your bored, no? lol.

[3ball]

LeBron's jack-of-all-trades


He's not a jack of all trades - if he was a jack of all trades he would be able to play in whatever fashion fits with teammates - but he can't do this, because he can only play as the primary ballhandler.

MJ and Kobe were jack of all trades because they were elite in ALL aspects, not just as the primary ballhandler like Lebron - MJ and Kobe were elite off-ball, post, mid-range and isolations, whereas Lebron is average to bad in these areas.. MJ and Kobe's elite ability in all areas allowed them to fit in better with teammates - they didn't have ANY of the chemistry problems you complain about with Lebron.





Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.


Why not if he team hops like Lebron in a really weak conference?... WITHOUT team-hopping, Malone went to 2 straight Finals after beating Popovich's 56-win Spurs led by Duncan/Robinson in 1998 WCSF, and then beating Shaq's loaded Lakers in WCF - that's better competition than any of Lebron's trips through the soft eastern conference.





but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?


It's amazing you can complain that "so-and-so couldn't play well with Lebron because of this".... "and so-and-so couldn't play with Lebron because of this..."

How can you say these things without realizing that MJ and Kobe never had these issues????... Again, they were elite in ALL areas of the game, not just primary ballhandler, so they could fit with teammates better and had more capacity to overcome a wider range of opponent strategies.

Btw - when you say "why would you when Lebron is way better"...... It shows how little you understand the game that you think a team can win a championship with Lebron making all the decisions on offense... That's laughable.. You must be so shocked everytime Lebron loses... :roll:... I'm not.. :banana:

[ralph_i_el]

Btw - when you say "why would you when Lebron is way better"...... It shows how little you understand the game that you think a team can win a championship with Lebron making all the decisions on offense... That's laughable.. You must be so shocked everytime Lebron loses... :roll:... I'm not.. :banana:

yeah, Bron will never win a championship :rolleyes:

[3ball]

yeah, Bron will never win a championship
The Heat went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).

The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.. Unfortunately, his lack of elite ability outside of primary ballhandler prevents optimal chemistry and a high brand of basketball.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).

[20Four]

yeah, Bron will never win a championship :rolleyes:
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm you leBRONZE stans are hilarious, no wonder yall work at McDonald's sucking each other off....

[ralph_i_el]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm you leBRONZE stans are hilarious, no wonder yall work at McDonald's sucking each other off....

:facepalm I dislike LeBron. I'm just being real.

I root in this order:
Wizards
.
.
Kevin Durant
.
.
.
.
UCLA players

[90sgoat]

If you were to look at it objectively, the story of Lebron and Wade is the story of MJ and Pippen. As soon as MJ/Wade got their jack of all trades teammate, they promptly went on to win championships. Then their jack of all trades wanted to be THE guy again and they went to different stacked teams BUT couldn't win. Pippen played first with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't win - in a season where Barkley opened the first game grabbing 33 rebounds and willingly relegating himself to be a garbage man. Then he went to Portland and couldn't win there either, even though he one of the most stacked teams of all time, one of the goat centers in Sarbonis, a great PF in Sheed, a great big guard in Steve Smit and so on.

He couldn't win because Pippen is a glue guy, a jack of all trades, just like Lebron.

[ralph_i_el]

If you were to look at it objectively, the story of Lebron and Wade is the story of MJ and Pippen. As soon as MJ/Wade got their jack of all trades teammate, they promptly went on to win championships. Then their jack of all trades wanted to be THE guy again and they went to different stacked teams BUT couldn't win. Pippen played first with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't win - in a season where Barkley opened the first game grabbing 33 rebounds and willingly relegating himself to be a garbage man. Then he went to Portland and couldn't win there either, even though he one of the most stacked teams of all time, one of the goat centers in Sarbonis, a great PF in Sheed, a great big guard in Steve Smit and so on.

He couldn't win because Pippen is a glue guy, a jack of all trades, just like Lebron.

LeBron has been one year away from Wade and he made it to the finals. MJ on steroids after finally getting to **** Madonna wasn't going to beat the Warriors with that Cavs squad minus Kyrie and Love.

[3ball]

MJ on steroids after finally getting to **** Madonna wasn't going to beat the Warriors with that Cavs squad minus Kyrie and Love.


Horseshit.. Lebron wins if he shoots sufficiently better than 39% - this is a fact... But unfortunately, it's ALSO a fact that he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume.

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team.. He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. This is no surprise - the best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over.. This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.

[ralph_i_el]

Horseshit.. Lebron wins if he shoots sufficiently better than 39% - this is a fact... But unfortunately, it's ALSO a fact that he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume.

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team.. He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. This is no surprise - the best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over.. This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.

You're right on the point of his midrange game not drawing double teams. He still draws tons of help in the paint though :confusedshrug: but when he has shooters around him that doesn't matter because he has the space to run a highly effective offense and get to the rim all the time.....

BUT he was playing against the best D in the league in the finals....without his two best playmaking AND shooting teammates.

And btw, LeBron's jumpshooting numbers were near a career worst this past playoffs. He shot a pretty high % on J's the last few years, and his regular season numbers are in-line with his past playoff numbers.

I'm inclined to chock this past playoffs up as a fluke+1st year with this squad+injured shooters in the playoffs.

As a team the Cavs shot 29% from 3 in the finals. That's not the case if they have Love and Irving. Which means Bron has space to operate....which means it's an actual series and not the ass-stomping we saw.

btw, I predicted a Warriors sweep before the finals. somebody can google that if they care. :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.


hmmmm, well the stats also say that for the last few years LeBron shot well (way better than this last year)

AND (here's the kicker)

For LeBron's first championship he had a 33.4% usage rate in the playoffs....MJ had a 32.7% usage for his first ring :roll: If you don't know, 33.4% is damn high usage. High enough to lead the league some years. Not as high as MJ or Kobe....but who shoots as much as those guys? :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lebron's style of play dooms his team's chances against the better playoff teams, resulting in "empty stats"

Lebron's style of play (pg ball-dominance and low-assisted rate from SF position, with poor mid-range or isolation skills) doesn't just prevent him from being effective without drive-and-kick or shooting well enough at high volumes to command double teams - it also hurts the brand of basketball his team is capable of.. His teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry.

Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).
.
This. Everything here is actually extremely accurate as a knock on LeBron's style of play. Some of the other things 3ball says can be melodramatic or exaggerated against LeBron. But this part of his post I absolutely believe, and is in my opinion, spot on analysis.

The lack of mid range game, lack of reliable post game, inconsistent jumper, less slithery in the half court, more plodding and with inferior ISO scoring skills compared to say MJ or Kobe or Durant.

Or even the likes of Wade, McGrady, Iverson, Kyrie and Melo.

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set. Unlike say Magic, or Bird who could also play off the ball, or had post skills, and more quick reads / passes. Without the need of excessive pick and roll plays.

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

That's why the phrase jack of all trades, master of none ... aka LeBron the Super Pippen, ring very true.

He did face one defender on ISOs exclusively, and put up 36 ppg on a putrid 39% from the field with just a singular defender on him for the entire series. He should've been well over 40 a game.

[Smoke117]

This. Everything here is actually extremely accurate as a knock on LeBron's style of play. Some of the other things 3ball says can be melodramatic or exaggerated against LeBron. But this part of his post I absolutely believe, and is in my opinion, spot on analysis.

The lack of mid range game, lack of reliable post game, less slithery in the half court, with inferior ISO scoring skills compared to say MJ or Kobe or Durant.

Or even the likes of Wade, McGrady, Iverson, and Melo.

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set. Unlike say Magic, or Bird who could also play off the ball, or had post skills, and more quick reads / passes. Without the need of excessive pick and roll plays.

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

That's why the phrase jack of all trades, master of none ... aka LeBron the Super Pippen, ring very true.

He did face one defender on ISOs exclusively, and put up 36 ppg on a putrid 39% from the field with just a singular defender on him for the entire series. He should've been well over 40 a game.

You know you're a jordan stan little tawt when you start agreeing with 3ball. You know what is the saddest part about you bro? You are actually a decent poster when Jordan isn't in the picture. (though you barely post when it isn't about your lover) I legit wouldn't be surprised if 3ball is your alt and your out to release all your bullshit on us. Yes...you are a bitch and a clown.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You know you're a jordan stan little tawt when you start agreeing with 3ball. You know what is the saddest part about you bro? You are actually a decent poster when Jordan isn't in the picture. (though you barely post when it isn't about your lover) I legit wouldn't be surprised if 3ball is your alt and your out to release all your bullshit on us. Yes...you are a bitch and a clown.
Um, ok. And none of my post had to do with Jordan. Just cosigning aspects to LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well. But, whatever you say for sure. Take your meds Smoke117. You're going all Rage Mode again.

[Smoke117]

Um, ok. And none of my post had to do with Jordan. Just cosigning aspects to LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well. But, whatever you say for sure. Take your meds Smoke117. You're going all Rage Mode again.

I'm absolutely upset, raging, and all that. You got me...:roll: *woo* I'm wheezing this is so hilariously sad.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm absolutely upset, raging, and all that. You got me...:roll: *woo* I'm wheezing this is so hilariously sad.
Um, ok.

[plowking]

Bron had a 3 year head start while playing in the worst conference in NBA History (post merger). Kobe was 3/3 in the finals by age 23, 5/7 by 30. Means jack shit.



Exactly, since we have to penalize Bron for being better at a younger age. Can't do that. And we all know that players play exactly the same amount of games, and time in their career, hence years in the league is the best way to gauge things.

Once again, I agree with you Dadda. Bron was playing in the worst conference in NBA history. Yet MJ was toughing it out his first few years, trying to make it to the playoffs in an conference which only allowed the elite to play. That is right, you guessed it... A 30 win team.

[plowking]

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.



LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well

Of course it does... somehow all these misconceptions hold for Bron, but when we look at the evidence, they all say otherwise.

Bron has regularly been involved in teams that average the most passes in a game, in the league all up for the season. Heat being a great example. Many other times, just shy of that. Even in 13-14 where his team got buried, they were 2nd that year to the Spurs, who they lost to.

Yeah, Lebron really stagnates the offense, right? Oh, and his usage rate must be high right? Sure, he is a great player. But MJ still has a higher usage rate... But once again... Bron... stagnating that offense. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

I agree that LeBron's jack-of-all-trades nature makes it harder for him to fit in with some teammates due to skill overlap. I agree that sometimes his style of play isn't the optimal strategy for team basketball.

HOWEVER.....he's been a one man army of destruction for over a decade now. He has weaknesses....but he has so many strengths too. Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.

We all know how good Wade and Bosh were, but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?

He's a top-10 player :confusedshrug: sorry. MJ's the GOAT, not many people are going to debate you on that one man. I'm not doing this for the trolling, I'm doing it for the truth.

But jordan is a better pg than pippen yet it was pippen who led in apg. Thats what really separates the winners from losers. Sacrificing stats for rings. Its the reason why duncan,russell, curry are winners. As jordan have said,"the day i let go of stats is the day i started wining."

[CTbasketball92]

Here's the deal.

We all appreciate 3Ball taking the time to meticously back up his claims about Lebron and MJ because we know a lot bball fans are fat basement dwellers who never played the game.

If you know and play basketball the eye test has been enough for years to tell that Lebron simply isn't that skilled a basketball player.

When you get to my age where you start to wear khaki pants and drink alone in the evening, you don't get phased by hype anymore.

Watching Lebron is has been clear for years that:

1) Lebron lacks a first step, this means he needs a pick to penetrate, which makes him predictablen and requires a power forward who can shoot the long jumper (Bosh, Love). Most guys who can shoot long jumpers are afraid of the post, so Lebron led teams will never have a bruising low post power forward.

2) Lebron doesn't pass into the post, which means you never have to guard the entry pass, which could have given him more room for that first step.

3) Lebron has poor body control and flexibility. He gets around this by committing offensive fouls on almost every drive, but it also means he actually finishes quite poorly around the basket if a big man is there (Hibbert, Duncan).

4) Lebron has no off ball game, which means you can generally guard him straight up with one guy during long stretches (Igoudala, Kawhi). Had he been able to move off ball, he could have gotten a lot of mismatches going on, but he can't.

5) Lebron bricks every mid range. Lebron has no jumper.

In fact Lebron needs an overwhelming amount of ref help in the form of bailout calls on his below the basket layups and his stiff arm drives.

I've said it again and again, Lebron is not elite tier, he doesn't have the elite skill of almost all top 10 players. He has no skyhook, no unblockable fade away, no finger roll, no ability to hit contested jumper, no ankle breaking crossover.

That means Lebron simply cannot be trusted to 'go get a basket'. Teaming up with Wade was all about that. Wade can get you a basket because he is skilled. Lebron is like Pippen, who needs Kukoc to get you a basket.

It's no shame, he is still a great player, just not a top 10 player, he is in the same tier as the Karl Malones, Moses Malones and Charles Barkleys. So close, but not good enough.


This is silly, everyone has LeBron's inefficient 2015 postseason on their minds so much that they overlook his years of incredible playoff performances. You would think none of you ever saw him score 25 straight to defeat a pistons team that locked Kobe up in '04, or that they the fact that he averages 32 ppg 10 rebounds and 7 assists on 46% shooting in elimination games.

Who was getting LeBron buckets when he singlehandedly beat the celtics with 45 points 15 rebounds and 5 assists on like 70% shooting? They had ZERO momentum and shouldve closed it out, but LeBron is LeBron, so he went off.

What about those Cleveland teams that had the league's best record, even though their team wasn't nearly as well rounded as lets say, the spurs or the warriors, and their second best player was Mo Williams?

LeBron is past his prime, and i honestly began to think that Harden or westbrook are close (not curry), but the finals opened my eyes. LeBron doesn't have elite one-on-one skills, but his size, athleticism and ability to essentially play pg while also guarding bigs gives him a dimension that Durant, Harden and Westbrook ... AND MJ cannot match.

What James Harden did against the warriors in that one game was incredible, but we saw how he crumbled with the 13 t/os. LeBron had to handle the ball just as much, if not more, and his turnovers still decreased. He shot 40%, but he averaged like 37 11 and 9 assists against the league's best defense while still being responsible for all of the cavs playmaking and won two games. This is LeBron PAST his prime, and yet, I just don't know of any other player in the league that could go to the worst team and guarantee 55 wins after a season.

LeBron has elite passing skills and elite bball iq and GOAT athleticism and build. His lack of one on one ability might be annoying and aesthetically unappealling, and he might stunt certain players growth, but when you're that damn dominant and go to five straight finals (east, but still), how can anyone complain about the results? Makes no sense.

Bird played on all hall of fame teams ... he is NOT doing what LeBron did this year, neither is Magic, neither is almost anyone except MAYBE MJ, because on a roster that depleted, you need someone who has the size and ability to do everything, and LeBron is the only player that can do it.

[DonDadda59]

Exactly, since we have to penalize Bron for being better at a younger age.

:durantunimpressed:

Jordan ages 21-25: 33/6/6/3/1 (51% FG)
LeBron ages 21-25: 29/7/7/2/1 (49% FG)


Once again, I agree with you Dadda. Bron was playing in the worst conference in NBA history.

Check the $tats... 00s Eastern Conference, especially '00-'04 & post 2010 = worst conference in post merger NBA History.


Yet MJ was toughing it out his first few years, trying to make it to the playoffs in an conference which only allowed the elite to play. That is right, you guessed it... A 30 win team.

Eastern Conference Win% '86-'87: 55-57%
Eastern Conference Win% '07: 41%
Eastern Conference Win% '14: 36.8%

:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Bird played on all hall of fame teams ... he is NOT doing what LeBron did this year, neither is Magic, neither is almost anyone except MAYBE MJ, because on a roster that depleted, you need someone who has the size and ability to do everything, and LeBron is the only player that can do it.

The cavs had plenty of size and all around ability.. dennis Thompson/mozgov frontcourt combo destroying Bulls and Hawks frontcourts, and easily defeating bogut/green in first few games til GS went small and took bogut out to throw clevelands balance off and make them sit mozgov after he dropped 28/10 on them. And then a lockdown all defense type guy in shumpert, and even delledova who could get in the head of curry and really got in the head of Teague, an all star caliber point guard. JR the sparkplug..



It wasn't some terrible supporting cast.. if it was Kobe's cast for instance though, with defenses having to play him in a way that sucks their defenders away from the middle of the court to guard his dominant mid/long range game Thompson and mozgov likely would've had even better numbers than they already had dominating other frontcourts like they did with Lebron.. who draws the opposite strategy from defenses than kobe, sucking their defenders inward to shade the paint.

And then of course if that happened they would be talked about as a "dominant frontcourt" that 'carried' Kobe throughout the whole playoffs


It was a solid supporting cast throughout the playoffs tbh.. Tristan Thompson consistently dominated his matchup throughout the whole thing as did mozgov and with GS choking at the start of the series it is possible other greats could have won that series. hell, the cavs would've won if bron shot just a hair better on all those isos they were gifting him to stay home on his spot up shooters.

[ralph_i_el]

The cavs had plenty of size and all around ability.. dennis Thompson/mozgov frontcourt combo destroying Bulls and Hawks frontcourts, and easily defeating bogut/green in first few games til GS went small and took bogut out to throw clevelands balance off and make them sit mozgov after he dropped 28/10 on them. And then a lockdown all defense type guy in shumpert, and even delledova who could get in the head of curry and really got in the head of Teague, an all star caliber point guard. JR the sparkplug..



It wasn't some terrible supporting cast.. if it was Kobe's cast for instance though, with defenses having to play him in a way that sucks their defenders away from the middle of the court to guard his dominant mid/long range game Thompson and mozgov likely would've had even better numbers than they already had dominating other frontcourts like they did with Lebron.. who draws the opposite strategy from defenses than kobe, sucking their defenders inward to shade the paint.

And then of course if that happened they would be talked about as a "dominant frontcourt" that 'carried' Kobe throughout the whole playoffs


It was a solid supporting cast throughout the playoffs tbh.. Tristan Thompson consistently dominated his matchup throughout the whole thing as did mozgov and with GS choking at the start of the series it is possible other greats could have won that series. hell, the cavs would've won if bron shot just a hair better on all those isos they were gifting him to stay home on his spot up shooters.

:facepalm he didn't have spot up shooters. He had a few minutes of Mike Miller. He had J.R. Smith who couldn't hit anything. Neither of his starting bigs were shooters. Delly is the worst offensive point guard to start a finals game that I can remember. Thompson is really just a rebounder. Mozgov is a decent defender, but a real stiff.

[Lebron23]

He's still a pretty good all around player. Expect his FG% to go up again now that he has 1 year of playing experience with his new team, and they are a much deeper team compared to last season.

[plowking]

:durantunimpressed:

Jordan ages 21-25: 33/6/6/3/1 (51% FG)
LeBron ages 21-25: 29/7/7/2/1 (49% FG)


Great analysis. Bron clearly entering the league at 18 is a bad thing, and we should use it as a negative against him when comparing to players who came in later.



Check the $tats... 00s Eastern Conference, especially '00-'04 & post 2010 = worst conference in post merger NBA History.



Eastern Conference Win% '86-'87: 55-57%
Eastern Conference Win% '07: 41%
Eastern Conference Win% '14: 36.8%

:confusedshrug:

Another great stat. Clearly 30 win teams like the Bulls making the playoffs signifies greater strength. Some arbitrary West vs East stat that can be due to a host of things is the end all and be all. Yes, the East post 2010 is clearly the worst conference in basketball history. Has nothing on the days Bulls were making the playoffs with 30 wins, or when Magic and Kareem were playing 39 win teams in the conference finals. Those were certainly far better than the current East.

[Indian guy]

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set.

When will this bogus narrative of LeBron's presence on talented teams leading to underachieving offenses end? It's a myth that needs to die ASAP. LeBron has played on 4 teams with championship-level talent in his career(2011-2014 Miami Heat), and those teams did remarkably well on offense in the playoffs during that 4 year span, with an average rank of #3 out of 16. And they made the Finals all 4 years too, so we're looking at a very large sample size featuring a lot of elite defensive teams. 11-14 Heat had an ORTG of 109.8(+4 over league average) in the playoffs. Let's look at similar 4-year stretches of some other great wings:

5) Celtics (84-87) 113.2 ORTG(+2.8 over league average)
4) Thunder (11-14) 108.6 ORTG (+2.9 over league average)
3) Lakers (08-11) 110.5 ORTG(+3.1 over league average)
2) Bulls (90-93) 113.3 ORTG(+3.8 over league average)

1) Heat(11-14) 109.8(+4.0 over league average)

LeBron's proven himself to be a GOAT-level offensive player. Pretty much anything that charts offensive impact(ORTG, OWS, ORPM, BOPM) - his only real peers are MJ, Magic and Nash. This notion that talented teams become marginalized with him on the roster is antiquated and needs to end. There's absolutely nothing supporting that claim. Nothing. He has led one amazing offensive team after another since his game took a significant leap in 2009. Just this past season alone, Cleveland finished 3rd on offense, despite nearly half the season being played 1) pre acquiring, JR, Mozgov, Shumpert 2) back-issues severely limiting LeBron's own play and 3) all kinds of chemistry issues given whole new roster and coaching staff. During the 2nd half of the season, once they had their full, post-trade roster and LeBron was healthy, they obliterated the rest of the league in ORTG. In the playoffs, they actually entered the NBA Finals as the #1 ranked offense in the league. Yep, that's with only 4 games of Love and Kyrie being in and out of the lineup + hardly being healthy when he did play. They eventually had to settle for #5(falling 1.3 points below #1 GS) after a lousy Finals performance, but had Kyrie played in the Finals, they likely would've finished the postseason as the league's #1 offense. Again, putting rest to the whole notion that LeBron's teams cannot dominate offensively when he's surrounded by talented players.

[livinglegend]

Thread backfired against jordan stans... oops! This is not what the purpose of it was. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Great analysis. Bron clearly entering the league at 18 is a bad thing, and we should use it as a negative against him when comparing to players who came in later.

:wtf:

Crack is whack.


Yes, the East post 2010 is clearly the worst conference in basketball history.

When you're right, you're right.

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

:applause:

[livinglegend]

:wtf:

Crack is whack.



When you're right, you're right.

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

:applause:

go shave your back hair oldie instead of writing crap

[Rose'sACL]

When will this bogus narrative of LeBron's presence on talented teams leading to underachieving offenses end? It's a myth that needs to die ASAP. LeBron has played on 4 teams with championship-level talent in his career(2011-2014 Miami Heat), and those teams did remarkably well on offense in the playoffs during that 4 year span, with an average rank of #3 out of 16. And they made the Finals all 4 years too, so we're looking at a very large sample size featuring a lot of elite defensive teams. 11-14 Heat had an ORTG of 109.8(+4 over league average) in the playoffs. Let's look at similar 4-year stretches of some other great wings:

2) Bulls (90-93) 113.3 ORTG(+3.8 over league average)
3) Lakers (08-11) 110.5 ORTG(+3.1 over league average)
4) Thunder (11-14) 108.6 ORTG (+2.9 over league average)
5) Celtics (84-87) 113.2 ORTG(+2.8 over league average)

1) Heat(11-14) 109.8(+4.0 over league average)

LeBron's proven himself to be a GOAT-level offensive player. Pretty much anything that charts offensive impact(ORTG, OWS, ORPM, BOPM) - his only real peers are MJ, Magic and Nash. This notion that talented teams become marginalized with him on the roster is antiquated and needs to end. There's absolutely nothing supporting that claim. Nothing. He has led one amazing offensive team after another since his game took a significant leap in 2009. Just this past season alone, Cleveland finished 3rd on offense, despite nearly half the season being played 1) pre acquiring, JR, Mozgov, Shumpert 2) back-issues severely limiting LeBron's own play and 3) all kinds of chemistry issues given whole new roster and coaching staff. During the 2nd half of the season, once they had their full, post-trade roster and LeBron was healthy, they obliterated the rest of the league in ORTG. In the playoffs, they actually entered the NBA Finals as the #1 ranked offense in the league. Yep, that's with only 4 games of Love and Kyrie being in and out of the lineup + hardly being healthy when he did play. They eventually had to settle for #5(falling 1.3 points below #1 GS) after a lousy Finals performance, but had Kyrie played in the Finals, they likely would've finished the postseason as the league's #1 offense. Again, putting rest to the whole notion that LeBron's teams cannot dominate offensively when he's surrounded by talented players.
people make up something in their mind about lebron and treat it as fact.
if you reply with facts then they just say "you need to see the game"

it almost like these idiots think that anyone who posts stats to back up their argument never watches the games. this is specially true for dondadda and shaqisgoat.

dondadda still doesn't know the difference between shadow-doubling and double teams. shadow-doubling wasn't allowed in the 80s and 90s so he has no idea what they are.

[plowking]

Can you guys imagine if the 29 win Sacremento Kings made the playoffs last season? That is essentially what happened when Jordan played.

[DonDadda59]

go shave your back hair oldie instead of writing crap

Back smooth as an egg my nigguh :pimp:

... my balls though, not so much :ohwell:

Also, Bron had to form multiple super teams just to get out of the worst conference ever (only to be spanked repeatedly by a West squad). These are facts. :yaohappy:

[livinglegend]

Back smooth as an egg my nigguh :pimp:

... my balls though, not so much :ohwell:

Also, Bron had to form multiple super teams just to get out of the worst conference ever (only to be spanked repeatedly by a West squad). These are facts. :yaohappy:

Another fact: 1-9 without master Pippen. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
55 wins without ballhogdan.
Almost won the championship without baldan.
Give lebron that team, they win 8 championships.
:yaohappy:

[LAZERUSS]

MJ > Lebron.

Still, EVERY team that Lebron joined immediately improved, and by considerable margins, and EVERY team he left immediately crumbled, by huge margins.

In his rookie season, he DOUBLED his teams wins from the year before (the year before the joke of an "All-Star" center Big Z carried the Cavs to a 17-65 record.) At age 22 he led the Cavs, with a horrific roster, to the franchise's first ever Finals. And in his last two years in Cleveland, he took putrid rosters to records of 66-16 and 61-21. And his '09 playoff run was one for the ages, in which he averaged 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rpg, and 7.3 apg.

He left that Cavs, and they went from a 61-21 record, to... 19-63!

He joined a Miami team that had gone 47-35 the year before, and was routed in the first round. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. Over the course in his four years in Miami, he would lead the Heat to four straight Finals, and two titles. BTW, the Heat went 47-18 without Wade in those four years, and "All-Star" Bosh contributed virtually nothing in his four post-seasons. In his '13 title run, Wade averaged 15.9 ppg on a .457 FG%, and Bosh 12.1 ppg on a .458 FG% in the playoffs. Bosh was so worthless that in game seven of the Finals, he played 28 minutes, picked up five stupid fouls, and scored ZERO points, on 0-5 shooting. And yet, Lebron was STILL able over come his ineptitude to win a title.

Lebron left the Heat, and they went immediately went from the Finals, down to a 37-45 record, and couldn't even make the playoffs in a historically weak conference.

He again joins the Cavs, and they immediately improved from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and guess what...yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates in that Finals, he single-handedly carried a supporting cast with Knick reject, JR Smith, as his second best player (and who put up a 12-4-1 .326 Finals), to TWO wins, and two more close losses against a 67-15 Warrior team that routed the tough Western Conference, and was by far, the best team (and defensive team) in the league. Oh, and all he could do was average a 36-13-12 series in that Finals.

Lebron's IMPACT was among the greatest ever.

[DonDadda59]

Can you guys imagine if the 29 win Sacremento Kings made the playoffs last season? That is essentially what happened when Jordan played.

Can you imagine the Bulls making all their finals playing in a conference that had a 37% win percentage and then got their shit pushed in time after time after time as soon as they saw a team from the West? :oldlol:


Another fact: 1-9 without master Pippen.
55 wins without ballhogdan.
Almost won the championship without baldan.

All time record 72 wins when he came back.

Winning a first round series = almost winning a championship now? :lol


Give lebron that team, they win 8 championships.

LeBron hand picks his teams and got a train ran on him by a washed up Duncan, Parker, Ginobli and a bunch of D-Leaguers.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2011/11/02/michaeljordanlol_1.gif

[Indian guy]

people make up something in their mind about lebron and treat it as fact.

It's amazing, right? It tends to happen more so with LeBron than any other player I can think of. It's like they have already made-up their minds about him and will pigeon-hole anything and everything into those preconceived notions, all on-court evidence and facts be damned. It used to drive me insane back in 2011 and 2012, when LeBron's athleticism had regressed severely in the half-court and his game had thus suffered noticeably - mainly complete inability to exert his will on games by simply trying harder, because his ability to create had regressed so much. Yet majority still spoke about him like it was 2008. It was incredible. Thankfully, we are past that level of stupidity and selective-blindness, but this thread is still an annoyance. There's this widely-held belief that LeBron cannot coexist with other talented players and his teams thus suffer offensively because of it, and it's all based on nothing. Or maybe based on how he used to play in 2007. It's like these people haven't watched him play since. Or ever looked up some offensive numbers.


dondadda still doesn't know the difference between shadow-doubling and double teams.

Shocking. Shadowing has essentially made hard-doubling on perimeter players almost entirely unnecessary. With no more "illegal defense", defenders can just defend a spot on the floor as opposed to guarding anyone and "shadow" the offensive player. Which is why I :oldlol: @ the whole "LeBron was barely doubled in the 2015 Finals!" garbage.

[DonDadda59]

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

It should also be pointed out that the one time in the past 15 years where the East wasn't an absolute joke (2010, 52% win), LeBron's 61 win team couldn't get out of the second round.

Coincidence? :confusedshrug:

Bron's squads have never made it out of an Eastern conference where the win % was greater than 37-41% and the only reason his teams are 2/6 and not 1/6 against the West is because of a miracle from Jesus himself.

Just food for thought. Have a great night fellas. :cheers:

[Bless Mathews]

LeBron age 30: 2/6 in the finals
MJ age 30: 3/3 in the finals

MJ age 22: swept twice in the first round
LeBron age 22: lost in 2nd round, swept in finals

but yeah, bron really can't shoot. Check his midrange stats on bball ref. It's really ugly

Stupid fuccin moron dipshit piece of shit idiot shit for brains fucctard using age when Jordan PLAYED THREE YEARS OF COLLEGE AND BRON WENT STRAIGHT TO THE FUCCIN PROS.

YOU HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE OF A TWO DAY OLD KANGAROO.


BY AGE 23 ANDREW BYNUM HAD 3,500 MORE POINTS AND 1,500 MORE REBOUNDS THAN DAVID ROBINSON.


FUCCIN FUCCIDIOT TARD.

In Jordan's first 11 FULL SEASONS in the NBA he led the league in scoring 10 times and went 6 for 6.

Led the league in steals 3 times.

I know you're no more than 19 years old and think BRON is close to goat, but I'm 39 and Jordan is so much better than BRON. And it's not even close.

[3ball]

This. Everything here is actually extremely accurate as a knock on LeBron's style of play. Some of the other things 3ball says can be melodramatic or exaggerated against LeBron. But this part of his post I absolutely believe, and is in my opinion, spot on analysis.

The lack of mid range game, lack of reliable post game, inconsistent jumper, less slithery in the half court, more plodding and with inferior ISO scoring skills compared to say MJ or Kobe or Durant.

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set. Unlike say Magic, or Bird who could also play off the ball, or had post skills, and more quick reads / passes. Without the need of excessive pick and roll plays.

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

He did face one defender on ISOs exclusively, and put up 36 ppg on a putrid 39% from the field with just a singular defender on him for the entire series. He should've been well over 40 a game.


It's not an exaggeration to say that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume - it's mathematical fact - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. It isn't possible to shoot 27 times per game on all 3-and-D - obviously, higher volume shooting requires more mid-range.

Lebron's bad mid-range also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, since mid-range was the primary option remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.. Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.

Ultimately, Lebron's bad midrange makes renders him: 1) a worse player in the 80's without drive-and-kick, and 2) incapable of good efficiency at high volume (which means he doesn't require double-teaming)... These things are based on statistical fact (i.e. midrange being the more efficient option without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, and Lebron's poor midrange efficiency leading to poor overall efficiency at high volume).

[Trollsmasher]

.
Lebron's style of play dooms his team's chances against the better playoff teams, resulting in "empty stats"

this is ironic considering MJ never won a single series where he wasn't a favorite


When will this bogus narrative of LeBron's presence on talented teams leading to underachieving offenses end? It's a myth that needs to die ASAP. LeBron has played on 4 teams with championship-level talent in his career(2011-2014 Miami Heat), and those teams did remarkably well on offense in the playoffs during that 4 year span, with an average rank of #3 out of 16. And they made the Finals all 4 years too, so we're looking at a very large sample size featuring a lot of elite defensive teams. 11-14 Heat had an ORTG of 109.8(+4 over league average) in the playoffs. Let's look at similar 4-year stretches of some other great wings:

2) Bulls (90-93) 113.3 ORTG(+3.8 over league average)
3) Lakers (08-11) 110.5 ORTG(+3.1 over league average)
4) Thunder (11-14) 108.6 ORTG (+2.9 over league average)
5) Celtics (84-87) 113.2 ORTG(+2.8 over league average)

1) Heat(11-14) 109.8(+4.0 over league average)

LeBron's proven himself to be a GOAT-level offensive player. Pretty much anything that charts offensive impact(ORTG, OWS, ORPM, BOPM) - his only real peers are MJ, Magic and Nash. This notion that talented teams become marginalized with him on the roster is antiquated and needs to end. There's absolutely nothing supporting that claim. Nothing. He has led one amazing offensive team after another since his game took a significant leap in 2009. Just this past season alone, Cleveland finished 3rd on offense, despite nearly half the season being played 1) pre acquiring, JR, Mozgov, Shumpert 2) back-issues severely limiting LeBron's own play and 3) all kinds of chemistry issues given whole new roster and coaching staff. During the 2nd half of the season, once they had their full, post-trade roster and LeBron was healthy, they obliterated the rest of the league in ORTG. In the playoffs, they actually entered the NBA Finals as the #1 ranked offense in the league. Yep, that's with only 4 games of Love and Kyrie being in and out of the lineup + hardly being healthy when he did play. They eventually had to settle for #5(falling 1.3 points below #1 GS) after a lousy Finals performance, but had Kyrie played in the Finals, they likely would've finished the postseason as the league's #1 offense. Again, putting rest to the whole notion that LeBron's teams cannot dominate offensively when he's surrounded by talented players.
rat poison



Still, EVERY team that Lebron joined immediately improved, and by considerable margins, and EVERY team he left immediately crumbled, by huge margins.

In his rookie season, he DOUBLED his teams wins from the year before (the year before the joke of an "All-Star" center Big Z carried the Cavs to a 17-65 record.) At age 22 he led the Cavs, with a horrific roster, to the franchise's first ever Finals. And in his last two years in Cleveland, he took putrid rosters to records of 66-16 and 61-21. And his '09 playoff run was one for the ages, in which he averaged 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rpg, and 7.3 apg.

He left that Cavs, and they went from a 61-21 record, to... 19-63!

He joined a Miami team that had gone 47-35 the year before, and was routed in the first round. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. Over the course in his four years in Miami, he would lead the Heat to four straight Finals, and two titles. BTW, the Heat went 47-18 without Wade in those four years, and "All-Star" Bosh contributed virtually nothing in his four post-seasons. In his '13 title run, Wade averaged 15.9 ppg on a .457 FG%, and Bosh 12.1 ppg on a .458 FG% in the playoffs. Bosh was so worthless that in game seven of the Finals, he played 28 minutes, picked up five stupid fouls, and scored ZERO points, on 0-5 shooting. And yet, Lebron was STILL able over come his ineptitude to win a title.

Lebron left the Heat, and they went immediately went from the Finals, down to a 37-45 record, and couldn't even make the playoffs in a historically weak conference.

He again joins the Cavs, and they immediately improved from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and guess what...yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates in that Finals, he single-handedly carried a supporting cast with Knick reject, JR Smith, as his second best player (and who put up a 12-4-1 .326 Finals), to TWO wins, and two more close losses against a 67-15 Warrior team that routed the tough Western Conference, and was by far, the best team (and defensive team) in the league. Oh, and all he could do was average a 36-13-12 series in that Finals.

Lebron's IMPACT was among the greatest ever.
more rat poison

[3ball]

LeBron's 2011-2014 Miami Heat did remarkably well on offense in the playoffs during that 4 year span



Overall offensive averages don't matter - they don't gauge whether a team has a championship-caliber offense that can maintain elite effectiveness against the best playoff teams - the only stats measuring this are the actual stats against those elite playoff teams.

The stats of Lebron's teams versus elite playoff teams show that his teams frequently DON'T have a championship-caliber offense.. In the 2011 Finals, they only had a 107.9 ORtg.... In the 2013 Finals, their ORtg was only 107 again, which was actually LESS than the Spurs 108.5.. In the 2014 Finals, they only had a 104 ORtg and averaged a mere 91 ppg, the lowest of any Spurs opponent.





The Cavs' offense was ranked #1 for a while in the 2015 playoffs, but they eventually had to settle for #5 after a lousy Finals performance


Again, the only stats that measure whether a team has a championship-caliber offense are the team's stats against the very best playoff opponents - accordingly, it's no surprise that when the Finals came around, Lebron's team once again proved to NOT have a championship caliber offense.

Even without Love or Kyrie, the Cavs could've won if Lebron shot sufficiently better - this is a fact.. But Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume because he's bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. This is why he shot 39% despite optimal conditions including single-coverage and the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.

39% would never be good enough to win a championship - in 1993, when MJ averaged 41/9/6/51% on 33 fga, it was BARELY enough for the Bulls to win - remarkably, both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in those Finals.





There's absolutely nothing supporting the claim that talented teams become marginalized with Lebron on the roster. Nothing.


There's tons - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs)..

The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.. Lebron's style of play (pg ball-dominance and low-assisted rate from SF position) is suboptimal - his teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry and dooms the team against elite playoff opponents.. Unfortunately for Lebron's teams, this is the only way he knows how to play.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).
.

[3ball]

Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him


In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... So it's factually incorrect to say the cavs collapsed without lebron - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.

Also. you guys give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ruined the team because everyone left with him and the team was gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Despite these facts, people will continue to overrate Lebron's "impact".





Lebron carried the Cavs to a close series against the Warriors


The Warriors won by a comfortable margin - after the Warriors figured out Lebron-ball, the last 3 games were all blowouts.. With the adjustments already known, the Warriors would sweep if the series were played again right now.

Overall, the 2015 playoffs merely demonstrated what the stats already showed - Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume doomed his team's chances and means he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.. Of course, his inability to shoot well at high volume, means he doesn't need to be doubled to PREVENT high volume, the way MJ and all other top 15 all-time players required.. :confusedshrug:

[90sgoat]

while also guarding bigs

Which bigs have Lebron ever guarded?

Remind of when this 'freak of nature' guarded someone like Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, hell even David West, not to mention guarding an actual center. This is one of the biggest myths ever, that Lebron can guard 1-5. He can guard a stretch 4 but when is the last time you saw him guard a real low post player?

[sdot_thadon]

MJ defeated Shaq/Penny, while Lebron only needed to beat Hibbert/George - that's a massive drop-off.

It's common knowledge that MJ faced the far superior competition:


http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg
.
Yeah, I remember. He only needed what some consider the greatest team of all time to do so....

Can you imagine the Bulls making all their finals playing in a conference that had a 37% win percentage and then got their shit pushed in time after time after time as soon as they saw a team from the West? :oldlol:



All time record 72 wins when he came back.

Winning a first round series = almost winning a championship now? :lol



LeBron hand picks his teams and got a train ran on him by a washed up Duncan, Parker, Ginobli and a bunch of D-Leaguers.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2011/11/02/michaeljordanlol_1.gif
Same, when he got Rodman to complete one of the greatest casts ever.

We're still harping on this weak east kick for lebron whenever Mj made the playoffs at 30-52, meanwhile Lebron was missing the postseason at 42-40? Lebron would have made the playoffs in MJ's east every year after his rookie season, which he'd have missed by a game. And get this, he'd have led his team to good enough records to not even have to face boston in the 1st rd 2 years in a row. I suppose MJ's suboptimal style was the reason he couldn't t avoid boston either year and got swept? The east was top heavy, just as it has been recently early in his career. It did toughen up for the 2nd 3peat when they had years of 5 and 6 50 win teams in the east, but the bulls were also one of the greatest ever in counter to that.

You fellas keep pushing the lebron style of play hurts his team shtick, while he keep winning.

Bonus question tell.me how many stars can walk away from the game at 30 with 2 rings 4 mvps and 6 finals appearances? I'm sure the list is long as hell since his style is detrimental to his teams.

[r15mohd]

"observations of Lebron's game"

http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/500/211962574.jpg

[sdot_thadon]

"observations of Lebron's game"

http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/500/211962574.jpg
:oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, I remember. He only needed what some consider the greatest team of all time to do so....

Same, when he got Rodman to complete one of the greatest casts ever.

How are you going to be one of the greatest casts ever when you're not even the best roster in your own conference at the time? :biggums:

Shaq's Magic>Jordan's Bulls in terms of talent. Horace Grant went from being the Bulls' 2nd/3rd option to being 5th on the Magic. And NO ONE wanted Dennis Rodman, the Spurs gave him up for Will f*cking Perdue and they won 59 games the next season. Rodman when he joined the Bulls was the same age as Ben Wallace when he joined the Cavs.


We're still harping on this weak east kick for lebron whenever Mj made the playoffs at 30-52, meanwhile Lebron was missing the postseason at 42-40? Lebron would have made the playoffs in MJ's east every year after his rookie season, which he'd have missed by a game. And get this, he'd have led his team to good enough records to not even have to face boston in the 1st rd 2 years in a row. I suppose MJ's suboptimal style was the reason he couldn't t avoid boston either year and got swept? The east was top heavy, just as it has been recently early in his career. It did toughen up for the 2nd 3peat when they had years of 5 and 6 50 win teams in the east, but the bulls were also one of the greatest ever in counter to that.

Again, check the $tats- LeBron's teams have made the finals in the worst conference ever post merger. This is not a point of debate, it's a FACT. The only time in the past 15 years where the conference had a winning percentage (2010), Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of the second round. The past prime Celtics made that dude quit on his team. Take that '10 Cavs team and drop them into the East now and they breeze through the playoffs, make the finals, only to get bum rushed by the West champion.

[sdot_thadon]

How are you going to be one of the greatest casts ever when you're not even the best roster in your own conference at the time? :biggums:

Shaq's Magic>Jordan's Bulls in terms of talent. Horace Grant went from being the Bulls' 2nd/3rd option to being 5th on the Magic. And NO ONE wanted Dennis Rodman, the Spurs gave him up for Will f*cking Perdue and they won 59 games the next season. Rodman when he joined the Bulls was the same age as Ben Wallace when he joined the Cavs.

:facepalm you can try and fix history to your liking as much as you need to cope bro, it is what it is. 2nd 3peat bulls, 96 specifically are regarded as one of the greatest teams ever, the 96 magic are not. This isn't up for debate amongst the sane.


Again, check the $tats- LeBron's teams have made the finals in the worst conference ever post merger. This is not a point of debate, it's a FACT. The only time in the past 15 years where the conference had a winning percentage (2010), Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of the second round. The past prime Celtics made that dude quit on his team. Take that '10 Cavs team and drop them into the East now and they breeze through the playoffs, make the finals, only to get bum rushed by the West champion.
Fact remains teams made the playoffs in the east with virtually the same records they make it with now, except for that one time they let a 30 win team in......

Give you a hint, it was the goats team. And in lebron's career there hasn't ever been a 30 win team in the postseason. There's your fact.

[3ball]

Same, when he got Rodman to complete one of the greatest casts ever.


Scottie wasn't very good during the 2nd three-peat - in the 1996-1998 playoffs, he averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% overall - how's that for a 2nd option?.. This included 15 ppg on 34% in the 1996 Finals and 15 ppg on 41% in the 1998 Finals.

35-year old Rodman averaged 5/11 in the 1996-1998 playoffs, including 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and the same in the 1998 Finals.. Don't try to sell me on an 8 rpg Rodman being a good player.. Rebounding is half of what he does, and defensively, he was just a post defender - he wasn't the dynamic, young all-star in Detroit that guarded all 5 positions - 1998 Rodman was 36 years old.

People don't understand that by the 2nd three-peat, the Bulls staff, organization, and MJ/Scottie had things down to a T - they knew how to win at that point - THAT'S the reason they 3-peated again, not because they had a talented cast - their cast was replaceable and actually garbage talent-wise... MJ still had to lead the league in scoring (including 4th quarter scoring), be one of the best defenders in the game, and hit every clutch shot for the Bulls.





We're still harping on this weak east kick for lebron whenever Mj made the playoffs at 30-52, meanwhile Lebron was missing the postseason at 42-40?


We're still harping on it, because regardless of statistical anomalies, MJ faced teams with far better records in the East playoffs than Lebron has faced.
.

[DonDadda59]

:facepalm you can try and fix history to your liking as much as you need to cope bro, it is what it is. 2nd 3peat bulls, 96 specifically are regarded as one of the greatest teams ever, the 96 magic are not. This isn't up for debate amongst the sane.

The Bulls were the better team, the Magic were the more talented squad.



Fact remains teams made the playoffs in the east with virtually the same records they make it with now, except for that one time they let a 30 win team in......

Give you a hint, it was the goats team. And in lebron's career there hasn't ever been a 30 win team in the postseason. There's your fact.

When the Heat made the Finals in 2014, the East win percentage was 36.8% (second worst ever). They breezed through the East as usual... then what happened the moment they ran into a West squad?

The washed Spurs with former D-Leaguers put a Historic ass whooping on them. Then Bron quit on his team yet again.

How are you gonna play in the shittiest conference ever, but still need to put together hand-picked super teams... only to bail on them time after time as soon as things get tough?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z192/Def_Fit/GIF/kobe-laughing_1350060747.gif

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

The Bulls were the better team, the Magic were the more talented squad.




When the Heat made the Finals in 2014, the East win percentage was 36.8% (second worst ever). They breezed through the East as usual... then what happened the moment they ran into a West squad?

The washed Spurs with former D-Leaguers put a Historic ass whooping on them. Then Bron quit on his team yet again.

How are you gonna play in the shittiest conference ever, but still need to put together hand-picked super teams... only to bail on them time after time as soon as things get tough?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z192/Def_Fit/GIF/kobe-laughing_1350060747.gif


love that gif of Kobe cracking up.. and yikes on the bolded ^^^ :facepalm

[3ball]

were Lebron would have made the playoffs in MJ's east every year after his rookie season, which he'd have missed by a game.


:wtf:

The 80's east was much tougher than the 2000's east, so you can't assume Lebron would have the same record.

Also, MJ's supporting cast was worse than anything Lebron ever had.. When Lebron first came in the league, he had a top 24 player (an all-star) on his team, yet he still missed the playoffs - MJ didn't have anything NEAR a top 24-player when he first came in the league, so Lebron would probably be in last place, since he was already lottery with a top 24 player on his team.





I suppose MJ's suboptimal style was the reason he got swept by boston?


The 1986 champion Celtics and their #1 defense probably weren't twice as good as the 2007 champion Spurs and their #1 defense - but the stats of 22-year old MJ were literally twice as good against the Celtics than 22-year old Lebron's were against the Spurs:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 35%


Of course, being able to have good efficiency at high volumes helped MJ - his superior midrange ability allowed his efficiency to handle the additional mid-range required of high volume shooters.. This is one of the biggest reasons MJ is so much better - Lebron can't doesn't have the midrange ability, so his efficiency plummets at high shooting volume - lol, MJ got 32 shot attempts per game against the Celtics - Lebron could never get that on all 3-and-D.. :facepalm





And get this, Lebron would've led his team to good enough records to not even have to face boston in the 1st rd 2 years in a row.


Again, the 80's east was much tougher than the 2000's east, so you can't assume Lebron would have the same record.. Plus Lebron would be playing with a much worse supporting cast than he was used to - there wouldn't be a top 24 player waiting on him if he was drafted by the 1984 Bulls, like there was when he got drafted by Cleveland.

Heck, even when MJ got Pippen, we have proof that the 1989 Bulls supporting cast was much worse than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs cast - we've already established that Lebron's 28/8/7/49 yielded 66 wins in 2009, while MJ's 33/8/8/54 only yielded 47 wins in 1989.. This 19 win discrepancy can only be due to Lebron playing worse competition and/or having a better supporting cast (we know the gap isn't due to Lebron playing a superior brand of basketball, because his 1-seed got upset in 2nd Round by Orlando, while MJ's 6 seed went to ECF and six games with champion Bad Boys).

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

[HurricaneKid]

.
The stats prove Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume


Well he DID lead the league in scoring while shooting .568TS%. His career TS% (despite playing when he was 19 and 20 at awful eff) is .581 while MJs is only .569. And 18000 shots in 12 seasons IS high volume.


.


Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team

He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. This is no surprise - the best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over.. This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.


This continued attack on rationality has to end. The Warriors played what has become standard defense against the league's best scorers. They defend with their best wing defender and place their rim protector in a strong side help position. This notion that you have to blitz an offensive player for it to be a double team is comically out dated. It is a far more effective defensive strategy to do just what Thibs had the 08-10 Celtics doing, the 9-10 Lakers, the 11 Mavs, the 15 GSW. The only champ since defenses started taking advantage of their new found freedoms that HASN'T used this approach was the Heat and that is almost entirely because they didn't HAVE a rim protector.

You have proven once and for all that you have no comprehension what current strategies are in place across the league and laughably stick to the lead based paint defensive solutions of the Jordan age. Thank goodness the rest of the ball world understands that it is cancerous.

[choppermagic]

Well he DID lead the league in scoring while shooting .568TS%. His career TS% (despite playing when he was 19 and 20 at awful eff) is .581 while MJs is only .569. And 18000 shots in 12 seasons IS high volume.



This continued attack on rationality has to end. The Warriors played what has become standard defense against the league's best scorers. They defend with their best wing defender and place their rim protector in a strong side help position. This notion that you have to blitz an offensive player for it to be a double team is comically out dated. It is a far more effective defensive strategy to do just what Thibs had the 08-10 Celtics doing, the 9-10 Lakers, the 11 Mavs, the 15 GSW. The only champ since defenses started taking advantage of their new found freedoms that HASN'T used this approach was the Heat and that is almost entirely because they didn't HAVE a rim protector.

You have proven once and for all that you have no comprehension what current strategies are in place across the league and laughably stick to the lead based paint defensive solutions of the Jordan age. Thank goodness the rest of the ball world understands that it is cancerous.


While I agree generally with what you said, I think the "blitzing" is not comically outdated. It's just not required against today's superstars. Put a Prime Shaq into the NBA today and you'll see the double and triple teams concept back in favour in a jiffy. The stars of today are mostly wing players that dont require, or cant be put, into those kinds of crowds.

[Indian guy]

Overall offensive averages don't matter

Why? :oldlol:. Because it completely debunks your ill-formed theories that are based on nothing? Again, LeBron made the Finals all 4 seasons, so the sample size is large enough to not be biased to just 1st round fodder. From the 2nd round onwards, Miami is going up against near-50 win teams or above and more importantly, great defensive teams. And during that 4 year span, we know for a fact that LeBron, on average, led a superior offense to any other great wing in NBA history.


The stats of Lebron's teams versus elite playoff teams show that his teams frequently DON'T have a championship-caliber offense

Raw ORTG by itself or when comparing across seasons doesn't tell us anything, dumbass. We have to compare it to league average or see how other teams performed against the same team. Honestly, how can you be this disingenuous?


In the 2011 Finals, they only had a 107.9 ORtg

Miami's 107.9 ORTG in the 2011 Finals was actually pretty darn good, considering Dallas posted a 105 DRTG during the regular season. A +2.9 offense, which is what Miami posted against them, is ELITE, and good enough to win a championship. Only 7 teams during the entire 2011 season posted a +2.9 offense or better. MJ's Bulls posted a +0.6 and +0.1 offense in the '97 and '98 Finals and still won. Miami's offense was even better against far superior defensive teams in Boston(56 wins) and Chicago(62 wins) the prior 2 rounds. Against Boston, the league's #1 ranked defensive team, they posted an insane +8.8 offense. For comparison's sake, the league's best offensive team in 2011 posted a +5.0 offense. Against Chicago, tied for #1 with Boston on D in 2011, Miami posted a +3.0 offense. Only 1 team in the entire 2011 playoffs had a better than +3.0 offense.


In the 2013 Finals, their ORtg was only 107 again

Ummm, no, they posted a 108.5 ORTG in the 2013 Finals. Spurs' DRTG the first 3 rounds? 97.4. A +11.3 offense is just godly, dude. Spurs' DRTG in the regular season? 101.6. A +6.9 offense :bowdown:. For comparison's sake, Miami was the league's #2 offense in the regular season and had a +6.4 offense. They were better in the Finals than they were in the regular season! They finished the 2013 playoffs as the league's #1 ranked offense. And that's despite facing a #6 ranked Bulls D in the 2nd round, #1 ranked Pacers D in the ECF and #3 Spurs in the Finals. Incredible.


In the 2014 Finals, they only had a 104 ORtg

104.8, actually. What is with your numbers, dude? Anyway, Spurs DRTG through the first 3 rounds was 104.5. And 102.4 in the regular season. So Miami was above league average in both instances, and this was supposed to be a "horrible" series for them.

So basically, LeBron's teams posted an ELITE offensive rating in the 2011-2013 Finals(you conveniently didn't include 2012 btw, nice job :oldlol:) , and were above league average in 2014. And this is just their Finals opponents. It doesn't even include the numerous elite teams they faced prior to that:

2011 Celtics(#1 D)
2011 Bulls(#1 D)
2012 Celtics(#1 D)
2013 Bulls(#6 D)
2013 Pacers(#1 D)
2014 Pacers(#1 D)

^ Those 6 teams averaged 53 wins. And despite that strict defensive competition year-after-year, Miami still had an average offensive rank of #3 from 2011-2014, to go along with a +4.0 offense, which is superior to the best 4 year-runs of other legendary wings like MJ, Bird, Kobe and Durant. So, again, you couldn't have been more wrong about LeBron's style of play leading to underachieving offenses. Quite the opposite, in fact, as all facts indicate.

[kshutts1]

Stupid fuccin moron dipshit piece of shit idiot shit for brains fucctard using age when Jordan PLAYED THREE YEARS OF COLLEGE AND BRON WENT STRAIGHT TO THE FUCCIN PROS.

YOU HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE OF A TWO DAY OLD KANGAROO.


BY AGE 23 ANDREW BYNUM HAD 3,500 MORE POINTS AND 1,500 MORE REBOUNDS THAN DAVID ROBINSON.


FUCCIN FUCCIDIOT TARD.

In Jordan's first 11 FULL SEASONS in the NBA he led the league in scoring 10 times and went 6 for 6.

Led the league in steals 3 times.

I know you're no more than 19 years old and think BRON is close to goat, but I'm 39 and Jordan is so much better than BRON. And it's not even close.
This is how a 39 year old responds? :facepalm

[kshutts1]

Why? :oldlol:. Because it completely debunks your ill-formed theories that are based on nothing? Again, LeBron made the Finals all 4 seasons, so the sample size is large enough to not be biased to just 1st round fodder. From the 2nd round onwards, Miami is going up against near-50 win teams or above and more importantly, great defensive teams. And during that 4 year span, we know for a fact that LeBron, on average, led a superior offense to any other great wing in NBA history.



Raw ORTG by itself or when comparing across seasons doesn't tell us anything, dumbass. We have to compare it to league average or see how other teams performed against the same team. Honestly, how can you be this disingenuous?



Miami's 107.9 ORTG in the 2011 Finals was actually pretty darn good, considering Dallas posted a 105 DRTG during the regular season. A +2.9 offense, which is what Miami posted against them, is ELITE, and good enough to win a championship. Only 7 teams during the entire 2011 season posted a +2.9 offense or better. MJ's Bulls posted a +0.6 and +0.1 offense in the '97 and '98 Finals and still won. Miami's offense was even better against far superior defensive teams in Boston(56 wins) and Chicago(62 wins) the prior 2 rounds. Against Boston, the league's #1 ranked defensive team, they posted an insane +8.8 offense. For comparison's sake, the league's best offensive team in 2011 posted a +5.0 offense. Against Chicago, tied for #1 with Boston on D in 2011, Miami posted a +3.0 offense. Only 1 team in the entire 2011 playoffs had a better than +3.0 offense.



Ummm, no, they posted a 108.5 ORTG in the 2013 Finals. Spurs' DRTG the first 3 rounds? 97.4. A +11.3 offense is just godly, dude. Spurs' DRTG in the regular season? 101.6. A +6.9 offense :bowdown:. For comparison's sake, Miami was the league's #2 offense in the regular season and had a +6.4 offense. They were better in the Finals than they were in the regular season! They finished the 2013 playoffs as the league's #1 ranked offense. And that's despite facing a #6 ranked Bulls D in the 2nd round, #1 ranked Pacers D in the ECF and #3 Spurs in the Finals. Incredible.



104.8, actually. What is with your numbers, dude? Anyway, Spurs DRTG through the first 3 rounds was 104.5. And 102.4 in the regular season. So Miami was above league average in both instances, and this was supposed to be a "horrible" series for them.

So basically, LeBron's teams posted an ELITE offensive rating in the 2011-2013 Finals(you conveniently didn't include 2012 btw, nice job :oldlol:) , and were above league average in 2014. And this is just their Finals opponents. It doesn't even include the numerous elite teams they faced prior to that:

2011 Celtics(#1 D)
2011 Bulls(#1 D)
2012 Celtics(#1 D)
2013 Bulls(#6 D)
2013 Pacers(#1 D)
2014 Pacers(#1 D)

^ Those 6 teams averaged 53 wins. And despite that strict defensive competition year-after-year, Miami still had an average offensive rank of #3 from 2011-2014, to go along with a +4.0 offense, which is superior to the best 4 year-runs of other legendary wings like MJ, Bird, Kobe and Durant. So, again, you couldn't have been more wrong about LeBron's style of play leading to underachieving offenses. Quite the opposite, in fact, as all facts indicate.
You may want to stop using facts. They have no bearing in these discussions.

[HurricaneKid]

While I agree generally with what you said, I think the "blitzing" is not comically outdated. It's just not required against today's superstars. Put a Prime Shaq into the NBA today and you'll see the double and triple teams concept back in favour in a jiffy. The stars of today are mostly wing players that dont require, or cant be put, into those kinds of crowds.

Put prime Shaq in the NBA today and he gets called for 3 charges in the 1st qtr. Players are not allowed to use their bodies as battering rams. Heck, people around here complain all the time when LeBron bumps people off. I remember Shaq hitting guys in the chest with his shoulders and moving them back 5 ft plus just to carve out space. Now its going the other way. And doubling the post isn't nearly as detrimental to a defense as blitzing a perimeter player. No perimeter player ever gets blitzed any more outside of a few PnRs against lousy ball handlers. Why would you implode your defense to have a secondary defender on a 20 ft jumper? You WANT the other team to shoot 20 foot jumpers.

[3ball]

18000 shots in 12 seasons IS high volume.


Not compared to Jordan.. For his career, Lebron averages 19.8 shot attempts per game (fga), and 20.8 in the playoffs.. At this volume, it's possible for most of these shots to be 3-and-D.

But if you want to take 25 shots per game like MJ's career playoff average, or 27 shots per game like Lebron did in these playoffs, or 33 shots per game like MJ and Lebron did in the 1993/2015 Finals, then you have to take a lot more midrange.

Lebron is bad at midrange, so his efficiency can't handle the additional midrange required of high volume shooters - his poor midrange ability makes him incapable of shooting well at high volume..

His poor midrange ability also ensures that he'd be a much worse player in the 80's, since midrange was the primary option in the absence of the 3-pointers required to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.. Without teammates spreading the floor with 3-pointers and making drive-and-kick the high efficiency force it currently is, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.







http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif


The Warriors played what has become standard defense against the league's best scorers. They defend with their best wing defender and place their rim protector in a strong side help position. This notion that you have to blitz an offensive player for it to be a double team is comically out dated.



Before I get to your specific point, I want to mention that today's flooding and halfway double-teams don't take the ball out of the ballhandler's hands - today's ballhandlers don't have to give up the rock as much - they get to keep the ball in their hands more than previous era guards.. Spacing makes overt double-teaming too dangerous - defenders are coming from further away, so the double-team is easier to notice and there's more time to find the open man.. The open man is also MORE open when there's spacing.. Double-teaming in no-spacing environments didn't have these issues, and was therefore much easier to effectively execute.

Also, speaking of being rational, all the floods and shading you speak of occur OUTSIDE the paint - today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds (the ban on paint-camping), have forced big men to come out of their wheelhouse (the paint) and engage in a mismatch by defending a guard in their wheelhouse (the perimeter).. However, a defense much prefers to legally paint camp and guard a no-spacing environment, like in previous eras - this way the big man gets to stay in his wheelhouse, rather than leave the paint wide open to engage in mismatches on the perimeter.

Even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims (see the optimal setup for any perimeter ballhandler above, as Austin Rivers blows by a slower big forced (Duncan) who lost in no man's land on the perimeter.






The Warriors played what has become standard defense against the league's best scorers. They defend with their best wing defender and place their rim protector in a strong side help position. This notion that you have to blitz an offensive player for it to be a double team is comically out dated.



Lebron didn't get strong-side flooded - defenders remained on the weakside and allowed him to go 1-on-1 all alone on the strongside - this happened repeatedly throughout the series.. Occasionally, a defender would feint like he's going to come over but they never did and Lebron got secluded 1-on-1 all series long.. No player in history has ever gotten secluded 1-on-1 clearouts repeatedly thoughout a series like that.
.

[Trollsmasher]

Why? :oldlol:. Because it completely debunks your ill-formed theories that are based on nothing? Again, LeBron made the Finals all 4 seasons, so the sample size is large enough to not be biased to just 1st round fodder. From the 2nd round onwards, Miami is going up against near-50 win teams or above and more importantly, great defensive teams. And during that 4 year span, we know for a fact that LeBron, on average, led a superior offense to any other great wing in NBA history.



Raw ORTG by itself or when comparing across seasons doesn't tell us anything, dumbass. We have to compare it to league average or see how other teams performed against the same team. Honestly, how can you be this disingenuous?



Miami's 107.9 ORTG in the 2011 Finals was actually pretty darn good, considering Dallas posted a 105 DRTG during the regular season. A +2.9 offense, which is what Miami posted against them, is ELITE, and good enough to win a championship. Only 7 teams during the entire 2011 season posted a +2.9 offense or better. MJ's Bulls posted a +0.6 and +0.1 offense in the '97 and '98 Finals and still won. Miami's offense was even better against far superior defensive teams in Boston(56 wins) and Chicago(62 wins) the prior 2 rounds. Against Boston, the league's #1 ranked defensive team, they posted an insane +8.8 offense. For comparison's sake, the league's best offensive team in 2011 posted a +5.0 offense. Against Chicago, tied for #1 with Boston on D in 2011, Miami posted a +3.0 offense. Only 1 team in the entire 2011 playoffs had a better than +3.0 offense.



Ummm, no, they posted a 108.5 ORTG in the 2013 Finals. Spurs' DRTG the first 3 rounds? 97.4. A +11.3 offense is just godly, dude. Spurs' DRTG in the regular season? 101.6. A +6.9 offense :bowdown:. For comparison's sake, Miami was the league's #2 offense in the regular season and had a +6.4 offense. They were better in the Finals than they were in the regular season! They finished the 2013 playoffs as the league's #1 ranked offense. And that's despite facing a #6 ranked Bulls D in the 2nd round, #1 ranked Pacers D in the ECF and #3 Spurs in the Finals. Incredible.



104.8, actually. What is with your numbers, dude? Anyway, Spurs DRTG through the first 3 rounds was 104.5. And 102.4 in the regular season. So Miami was above league average in both instances, and this was supposed to be a "horrible" series for them.

So basically, LeBron's teams posted an ELITE offensive rating in the 2011-2013 Finals(you conveniently didn't include 2012 btw, nice job :oldlol:) , and were above league average in 2014. And this is just their Finals opponents. It doesn't even include the numerous elite teams they faced prior to that:

2011 Celtics(#1 D)
2011 Bulls(#1 D)
2012 Celtics(#1 D)
2013 Bulls(#6 D)
2013 Pacers(#1 D)
2014 Pacers(#1 D)

^ Those 6 teams averaged 53 wins. And despite that strict defensive competition year-after-year, Miami still had an average offensive rank of #3 from 2011-2014, to go along with a +4.0 offense, which is superior to the best 4 year-runs of other legendary wings like MJ, Bird, Kobe and Durant. So, again, you couldn't have been more wrong about LeBron's style of play leading to underachieving offenses. Quite the opposite, in fact, as all facts indicate.
3ball may as well retire now:biggums:

[HurricaneKid]

Not compared to Jordan.. For his career, Lebron averages 19.8 shot attempts per game (fga), and 20.8 in the playoffs.. At this volume, it's possible for most of these shots to be 3-and-D.

But if you want to take 25 shots per game like MJ's career playoff average, or 27 shots per game like Lebron did in these playoffs, or 33 shots per game like MJ and Lebron did in the 1993/2015 Finals, then you have to take a lot more midrange.

Lebron is bad at midrange, so his efficiency can't handle the additional midrange required of high volume shooters - his poor midrange ability makes him incapable of shooting well at high volume..

His poor midrange ability also ensures that he'd be a much worse player in the 80's, since midrange was the primary option in the absence of the 3-pointers required to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.. Without teammates spreading the floor with 3-pointers and making drive-and-kick the high efficiency force it currently is, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.




Before I get to your specific point, I want to mention that today's flooding and halfway double-teams don't take the ball out of the ballhandler's hands - today's ballhandlers don't have to give up the rock as much - they get to keep the ball in their hands more than previous era guards.. Spacing makes overt double-teaming too dangerous - defenders are coming from further away, so the double-team is easier to notice and there's more time to find the open man.. The open man is also MORE open when there's spacing.. Double-teaming in no-spacing environments didn't have these issues, and was therefore much easier to effectively execute.

Also, speaking of being rational, all the floods and shading you speak of occur OUTSIDE the paint - today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds (the ban on paint-camping), have forced big men to come out of their wheelhouse (the paint) and engage in a mismatch by defending a guard in their wheelhouse (the perimeter).. However, a defense much prefers to legally paint camp and guard a no-spacing environment, like in previous eras - this way the big man gets to stay in his wheelhouse, rather than leave the paint wide open to engage in mismatches on the perimeter.

Even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims (see the optimal setup for any perimeter ballhandler above, as Austin Rivers blows by a slower big forced (Duncan) who lost in no man's land on the perimeter.



Lebron didn't get strong-side flooded - defenders remained on the weakside and allowed him to go 1-on-1 all alone on the strongside - this happened repeatedly throughout the series.. Occasionally, a defender would feint like he's going to come over but they never did and Lebron got secluded 1-on-1 all series long.. No player in history has ever gotten secluded 1-on-1 clearouts repeatedly thoughout a series like that.
.

I'm done trying to explain the game to you. The shot distributions in the 80s were completely different because defenses weren't free to defend. The year MJ scored 37.1 ppg there were 39 players that scored 20+ppg. That number dropped to 11 a few years ago. Comparing that age with today is dumb. It was a completely different game.

LeBron had strongside help in almost every situation. Half the .gifs you put up document this. The optimal position for the strongside help is strongside, right outside the block/charge circle. So LeBron holds the ball long enough where that defender has to move or get 3 sec calls. That dance doesn't mean the defender has given up; far from it. The fact that you have no idea what is happening when you write (read: C/P) your dissertation length posts is what makes your posting the joke of this site.

Just look at Indian Guy's destruction of your soul, still unanswered, for evidence. Because I'm done trying to argue with you when you don't understand the first thing about defensive strategies over the years.

[kshutts1]

I'm done trying to explain the game to you. The shot distributions in the 80s were completely different because defenses weren't free to defend. The year MJ scored 37.1 ppg there were 39 players that scored 20+ppg. That number dropped to 11 a few years ago. Comparing that age with today is dumb. It was a completely different game.

LeBron had strongside help in almost every situation. Half the .gifs you put up document this. The optimal position for the strongside help is strongside, right outside the block/charge circle. So LeBron holds the ball long enough where that defender has to move or get 3 sec calls. That dance doesn't mean the defender has given up; far from it. The fact that you have no idea what is happening when you write (read: C/P) your dissertation length posts is what makes your posting the joke of this site.

Just look at Indian Guy's destruction of your soul, still unanswered, for evidence. Because I'm done trying to argue with you when you don't understand the first thing about defensive strategies over the years.
Are you one of the ones that mentioned a "shadow double"? Can you please explain it to me? I likely know the idea once it's explained, and just didn't know what it was called.

[20Four]

3ball....I dont get what you have to observe? LeBRONZE has no game at all....hes just a big guy for his position and basically stiff arms his opponents out the way...wtf

[3ball]

Miami still had an average offensive rank of #3 from 2011-2014, to go along with a +4.0 offense, which is superior to the best 4 year-runs of other legendary wings like MJ, Bird, Kobe and Durant. So, again, you couldn't have been more wrong about LeBron's style of play leading to underachieving offenses. Quite the opposite, in fact, as all facts indicate.


Stats can't be used to disprove the claim that Lebron imposes an inferior/suboptimal brand of basketball on his team, which causes his teams to underachieve given their level of talent.

So you missed the point - he's underachieving given the talent he has - the on-off stats for Lebron and Wade show that the Heat were better when they DIDN'T play together.. This alone lets us know the Heat were underachieving - someone else who was elite in more areas and employed a more optimal style would've done better.






Miami's 107.9 ORTG in the 2011 Finals was actually pretty darn good, considering Dallas posted a 105 DRTG during the regular season.


Dallas shut Lebron down - this made the Heat incapable of winning against Dallas, which means Dallas played the better defense against the Heat than any other team.

It doesn't matter what the stats say... When you have a shock to the system like that (Lebron averaging 17 ppg), it becomes the most important thing because it's a series-changer - the numbers go out the window.





Ummm, no, they posted a 108.5 ORTG in the 2013 Finals. Spurs' DRTG the first 3 rounds? 97.4... That's +11.3, which is ungodly dude


Other than the 2012 Finals, the Heat always played a worse brand of basketball than their Finals opponent, whether they won or lost.. Their talent allowed them to go 2/4 in spite of suboptimal chemistry and brand of basketball.

The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.. Lebron's style of play (pg ball-dominance and low-assisted rate from SF position) is suboptimal - his teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry and dooms the team against elite playoff opponents.. Unfortunately for Lebron's teams, this is the only way he knows how to play.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).






And during that 4 year span, we know for a fact that LeBron, on average, led a superior offense to any other great wing in NBA history.




Team ORtg:

Miami 2011: 111.7
Miami 2012: 106.6
Miami 2013: 112.3
Miami 2014: 110.9

Chicago 1991: 114.6
Chicago 1992: 115.5
Chicago 1996: 115.2
Chicago 1997: 114.4
.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif


Are you one of the ones that mentioned a "shadow double"? Can you please explain it to me?



Shadow double-teams are like half-double teams where the double-teamer doesn't come all the way.. Shadow double-teams don't take the ball out of the ballhandler's hands, which means today's ballhandlers don't have to give up the rock as much - they get to keep the ball in their hands more than previous era guards.

It's important to note that all shadow double-teaming occurs OUTSIDE the paint - today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds (the ban on paint-camping), have forced big men to come out of their wheelhouse (the paint) and engage in a mismatch by defending a guard in their wheelhouse (the perimeter).. However, a defense much prefers to legally paint camp and guard a no-spacing environment, like in previous eras - this way the big man gets to stay in his wheelhouse, rather than leave the paint wide open to engage in mismatches on the perimeter.

Even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims (see the optimal setup for any perimeter ballhandler above, as Austin Rivers blows by a slower big who is lost in no man's land on the perimeter.

Today's spacing makes overt double-teaming too dangerous - defenders are coming from further away, so the double-team is easier to notice and there's more time to find the open man.. The open man is also MORE open when there's spacing.. Double-teaming in no-spacing environments didn't have these issues, and was therefore much easier to effectively execute.

[Indian guy]

the on-off stats for Lebron and Wade show that the Heat were better when they DIDN'T play together.. This alone lets us know the Heat were underachieving - someone else who was elite in more areas and employed a more optimal style would've done better.




Dallas shut Lebron down - this made the Heat incapable of winning against Dallas, which means Dallas played the better defense against the Heat than any other team.

It doesn't matter what the stats say... When you have a shock to the system like that (Lebron averaging 17 ppg), it becomes the most important thing because it's a series-changer - the numbers go out the window.



Other than the 2012 Finals, the Heat always played a worse brand of basketball than their Finals opponent, whether they won or lost.. Their talent allowed them to go 2/4 in spite of suboptimal chemistry and brand of basketball.

The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.. Lebron's style of play (pg ball-dominance and low-assisted rate from SF position) is suboptimal - his teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry and dooms the team against elite playoff opponents.. Unfortunately for Lebron's teams, this is the only way he knows how to play.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).

Huh? :facepalm. There are 0 facts here to disprove what I said. You just went on with your usual rhetoric that I already debunked in my original post, so I don't even know what you're doing by re-posting the same thing again. This is why you're always on my IL and I never bother replying to you, but only chose to do so this time because for some asinine reason, other LeBron haters take your word as gospel, even though nothing you say is remotely based in reality. But since I'm done proving your entire shtick on this board - LeBron's supposedly "sub-optimal" play leading to underachieving offenses - as colossally false - you're going back to my IL.


Team ORtg:

Miami 2011: 111.7
Miami 2012: 106.6
Miami 2013: 112.3
Miami 2014: 110.9

Chicago 1991: 114.6
Chicago 1992: 115.5
Chicago 1996: 115.2
Chicago 1997: 114.4
.

Really dude, comparing raw advanced stats across eras? :oldlol:. Do you also look at Detroit's DRTG from the late 80's and believe they'd just be an average defensive team today? I mean, this is such basic stuff. I'm done. Goodbye.

[3ball]

LeBron had strongside help in almost every situation. Half the .gifs you put up document this.




Actually, in virtually all the GIFs, Lebron faces ZERO help defenders on the strongside:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif



I have plenty more, but there's no need to clutter the thread - you get the point - no strongside help - a stark contrast to the lack of weakside spacing and resulting fully-flooded strongsides where all 5 defenders are on strongside and/or in paint:


http://i.imgur.com/kAsDnlC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif


As the first group of gifs demonstrates, weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders, which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated - weakside spacing necessitates strongside flooding.

Otoh, as the first GIF showed, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders didn't need to leave the strongside, which meant there were no weakside defenders to flood over.. With defenders remaining on the strongside, the strongside was already flooded and today's "strongside flood" strategy was not necessary.. 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) were standard.

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping, and therefore requiring more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no paint-camping, no physicality.. The highest levels of offensive sophistication (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11534471&postcount=108) simply aren't needed for the beginner version of the game.
.

[3ball]

There are 0 facts here to disprove what I said. You just went on with your usual rhetoric that I already debunked in my original post


I don't have to disprove what you said - what you said has nothing to do with any of the arguments posted in the OP - you tried to change the argument by saying Lebron's offenses didn't have below-average ORtg's, which was never the argument.

The argument was that Lebron's suboptimal style imposes an inferior brand of basketball that causes his teams to underachieve and perform less than they could against the elite playoff teams.

I have no idea why you brought ORtg into it - I suspect it's because you aren't capable of understanding qualitative factors in the game.. Accordingly, you attempted to view my argument in quantitative terms, and of course, failed to get any clarity that way.

[ArbitraryWater]

Indian guy killed these myths just now.. gonna save those finals team stats when I'm home

[3ball]

The shot distributions in the 80s were completely different because defenses weren't free to defend.



Inside the paint, today's defenders are NOT "free to defend".. To remain in the 16 x 19 foot paint area, today's defenders must stand right next to their man (within "armslength" or about 3 feet) - defensive rules can't GET anymore restrictive than this.

I'll go into more detail later.
.

[sdot_thadon]

The Bulls were the better team, the Magic were the more talented squad.




When the Heat made the Finals in 2014, the East win percentage was 36.8% (second worst ever). They breezed through the East as usual... then what happened the moment they ran into a West squad?

The washed Spurs with former D-Leaguers put a Historic ass whooping on them. Then Bron quit on his team yet again.

How are you gonna play in the shittiest conference ever, but still need to put together hand-picked super teams... only to bail on them time after time as soon as things get tough?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z192/Def_Fit/GIF/kobe-laughing_1350060747.gif
Too much narrative riding, not much substance. Mj worshipers can't ever speak on stacked teams, it is what it is. Goat had damn near goat cast at points in his career. Yet somehow you see fit to penalize what you perceive to be a lesser player.....hmm. speaks for itself.

Still pretty decent deflection attempt, you still haven't explained to me how a 30 win team makes the postseason in a supposed herculean conference.


folklore porn
It's not even shocking to see you downplay his cast anymore, it's actually pretty funny to see the ends you'll go to for it. Meanwhile here in the real world for those of us who actually experienced the 90's know scottie was regarded as the 2nd best perimeter player in the game during the 2nd 3peat. So either: You're understating pippen, or it was a shitty weak era. Take your pick, by your account of course. The lengths you have to go to in order to criticize lebron are incredible, shows how great you really think he is 3ball.

[Lebron23]

Indian Guy just slaughtered 3ball just like Rex Chapman owning Jordan.

[3ball]

Meanwhile here in the real world for those of us who actually experienced the 90's know scottie was regarded as the 2nd best perimeter player in the game during the 2nd 3peat.


I WAS THERE, you weren't - maybe you were in kindergarten or something.

Back then, many people felt Pippen was garbage and MJ carried the team - on another site, I got my screen name (potty pippen) from my buddy who used to call Pippen that during the 2nd three-peat.

You're the one creating a new narrative that Pippen was all-world and the 2nd best perimeter player in the game - Penny, Gary Payton, and Grant Hill were all EASILY better.. Like, it's not close - everyone back then thought these 3 guys destroyed Pippen... Clyde was probably as good too.. Pippen was widely known as MJ's bitch.. Realtalk... I'm merely RELAYING to you the widely-held sentiment at the time... You go ahead and deny the facts if you want... I know you will.

The stats back up the assertion that Pippen didn't provide MJ with enough help, and guys like Shaq, Isiah, and Laimbeer have all said Pippen was nothing.





you still haven't explained to me how a 30 win team makes the postseason in a supposed herculean conference.


Why would he?

He already showed you that Lebron faced teams that won FAR less games - why would he care about statistical anomaly when he's already proved the rule that MJ faced far tougher comp?

[3ball]

Indian Guy just slaughtered 3ball just like Rex Chapman owning Jordan.


I destroyed him - he tried to change the argument by saying that the ORtg's of Lebron's teams were good and shouldn't be criticized.

Who cares about this - that wasn't my argument - the argument was that Lebron's suboptimal style imposes an inferior brand of basketball and chemistry on his teams, which causes underperformance given the talent level of the team.

The only reason Indian Guy twisted the argument into some diatribe about ORtg, is because he can't understand qualitative aspects of the game, so he tried to turn my argument into a quantitative one that had no relation to anything I said.

[sdot_thadon]

I WAS THERE, you weren't - maybe you were in kindergarten or something.

Back then, many people felt Pippen was garbage and MJ carried the team - on another site, I got my screen name (potty pippen) from my buddy who used to call Pippen that during the 2nd three-peat.

You're the one creating a new narrative that Pippen was all-world and the 2nd best perimeter player in the game - Penny, Gary Payton, and Grant Hill were all EASILY better.. Like, it's not close - everyone back then thought these 3 guys destroyed Pippen... Clyde was probably as good too.. Pippen was widely known as MJ's bitch.. Realtalk... I'm merely RELAYING to you the widely-held sentiment at the time... You go ahead and deny the facts if you want... I know you will.

The stats back up the assertion that Pippen didn't provide MJ with enough help, and guys like Shaq, Isiah, and Laimbeer have all said Pippen was nothing.
I kinda feel bad for interrupting Indianguy's Colorado probing but man you're pretty funny. I never heard anyone ever refer to pippen as trash in any era until this one. And of course only by people like you. There was a point during the 2nd 3peat where some believed the bulls had the best 2 players in the league. Can't rewrite what actual went down as long as people who saw it are still around bro. 2 d best perimeter player in the game and best perimeter defender during the 2nd 3peat. I can't even make this shit up.

So you were around during the 90's, yet you can't remember the superman, batman, Rodman thing that was going around? Yeah ok buddy.


Heck, even when MJ got Pippen, we have proof that the 1989 Bulls supporting cast was much worse than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs cast - we've already established that Lebron's 28/8/7/49 yielded 66 wins in 2009, while MJ's 33/8/8/54 only yielded 47 wins in 1989.. This 19 win discrepancy can only be due to Lebron playing worse competition and/or having a better supporting cast (we know the gap isn't due to Lebron playing a superior brand of basketball, because his 1-seed got upset in 2nd Round by Orlando, while MJ's 6 seed went to ECF and six games with champion Bad Boys).
Seems like you answered your own question boss. The definition of optimal. I can only take you to the water, it's up to you to drink it. Glad I could be of service.

[LAZERUSS]

I kinda feel bad for interrupting Indianguy's Colorado probing but man you're pretty funny. I never heard anyone ever refer to pippen as trash in any era until this one. And of course only by people like you. There was a point during the 2nd 3peat where some believed the bulls had the best 2 players in the league. Can't rewrite what actual went down as long as people who saw it are still around bro. 2 d best perimeter player in the game and best perimeter defender during the 2nd 3peat. I can't even make this shit up.

So you were around during the 90's, yet you can't remember the superman, batman, Rodman thing that was going around? Yeah ok buddy.


Seems like you answered your own question boss. The definition of optimal. I can only take you to the water, it's up to you to drink it. Glad I could be of service.

Yeah...Pippen and Grant were so bad that they could only go 55-27 without Jordan, and had they not missed 22 games, they would have won 60+, had HCA, and likely won a title without MJ.

Meanwhile, Lebron's supporting cast of Wade and Bosh? Wade was so good that in their four seasons together, the Heat went 47-18 in the games he MISSED. And Bosh? A CAREER LOSER before and after LEBRON.

[3ball]

I never heard anyone ever refer to pippen as trash in any era until this one. And of course only by people like you.


Shaq said Pippen was trash... Isiah said Pippen was trash... So did Laimbeer.

There was never a point during the 2nd three-peat where people thought Pippen was the 2nd best player in the game - that's ludicrous.. You're just making shit up.. I'll never go along with it BECAUSE I WAS THERE, while you were in kindergarten.

As for the superman, batman, rodman - i've never heard of that - another thing you made up.

[sdot_thadon]

Shaq said Pippen was trash... Isiah said Pippen was trash... So did Laimbeer.

There was never a point during the 2nd three-peat where people thought Pippen was the 2nd best player in the game - that's ludicrous.. You're just making shit up.. I'll never go along with it BECAUSE I WAS THERE, while you were in kindergarten.

As for the superman, batman, rodman - i've never heard of that - another thing you made up.
I'll just leave this here.


Superman, Batman and Rodman all in the same frame. Let's see that again.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-06-08/sports/9606080156_1_bulls-scottie-pippen-dennis-rodman

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19960118&id=m68sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ERUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4467,712229&hl=en


That didnt take long, glad I could educate you.

Oh and I'll leave this here as well.

The month ended as it had begun, with a victory over the Rockets, this time in Houston (it was the Bulls’ first win there in eight years). Pippen, who had emerged as a legitimate MVP candidate, topped the Bulls with 28 points, 12 rebounds, and five assists. “He’s the leader of this team,” Jordan said, exaggerating less than many people supposed.

Guess you can go to recess now.

[3ball]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-06-08/sports/9606080156_1_bulls-scottie-pippen-dennis-rodman


You want to get into a quoting war - every professional has quotes where someone said something nice about them.. I can post quotes about Mario Chalmers where guys were saying he was emerging as a team leader.

For every politically correct quote and platitude given to the formal media about Pippen, I can provide quotes where those same guys said the Bulls were a 1-man team..

Of course, there are other quotes where guys are keeping it real on social media and saying what they REALLY think.. There are tons of quotes like this where guys said Pip was trash.





https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19960118&id=m68sAAAAIBAJ&s jid=ERUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4467,712229&hl=en


It's a moot point - even if you think Pippen is all-world, he still represents less help than Magic, Bird, Duncan, or Lebron had... All those guys needed multiple HOF's to win a championship, while MJ only needed 1 to three-peat... HOF Pippen doesn't compare to:

Kareem/Worthy
McHale/Parish/DJ
Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
Wade/Bosh/Allen.

Like, there's a reason MJ had to lead the league in scoring for all of the Bulls rings: he had the least help ever... 2+2=4... MJ can't lead the league in scoring but somehow NOT have the least help.
.

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


The shot distributions in the 80s were completely different because defenses weren't free to defend.




Inside the paint, today's defenders are NOT "free to defend".. To remain in the 16 x 19 foot paint area, today's defenders must stand right next to their man (within "armslength" or about 3 feet) - defensive rules can't GET anymore restrictive than this.

The "armslength" restriction means a defender cannot stand under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - the defender must go stand right next to their man on the block, like Maurice Speights in the GIF above - he must follow Tristan Thompson to the block to remain within "armslength", and leave the rim open for Lebron to finish.

Otoh, previous era defenders didn't have to stand right next to their man to remain in the paint - they could remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. So previous era defenders COULD remain under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block.. In the gif above, Speights would be able to remain under the rim and defend Lebron - he wouldn't have to follow Tristan to the block like today's defender.

Previous era defenders had more freedom inside the paint.. Outside the paint, they had less freedom, but they weren't nearly as restricted as today's paint defenders - they were never required to remain within armslength anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules... Also, the extra freedom today's defenders have outside the paint is a strategic freedom - PHYSICALLY, they are still more restricted than previous era defenders outside the paint, while still being severely restricted inside the paint by the "armslength" restriction.

[ralph_i_el]

Inside the paint, today's defenders are NOT "free to defend".. To remain in the 16 x 19 foot paint area, today's defenders must stand right next to their man (within "armslength" or about 3 feet) - defensive rules can't GET anymore restrictive than this.

The "armslength" restriction means a defender cannot stand under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - the defender must go stand right next to their man on the block, like Maurice Speights in the GIF above - he must follow Tristan Thompson to the block to remain within "armslength", and leave the rim open for Lebron to finish.

Otoh, previous era defenders didn't have to stand right next to their man to remain in the paint - they could remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. So previous era defenders COULD remain under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block.. In the gif above, Speights would be able to remain under the rim and defend Lebron - he wouldn't have to follow Tristan to the block like today's defender.

Previous era defenders had more freedom inside the paint.. Outside the paint, they had less freedom, but they weren't nearly as restricted as today's paint defenders - they were never required to remain within armslength anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules... Also, the extra freedom today's defenders have outside the paint is a strategic freedom - PHYSICALLY, they are still more restricted than previous era defenders outside the paint, while still being severely restricted inside the paint by the "armslength" restriction.

they don't have to stay in arms-length....THEY JUST HAVE TO BE IN ARMS-LENGTH ONCE PER 3 SECONDS.....OR PUT A FOOT OUT OF THE PAINT.

How long does it take you to put one toe out of the paint from the middle of the paint? You have to do that every time someone hasn't come close to you for a while, which is usually never.

This idea of wide open paints is bogus. You're only getting that from LeBron clips. Guess what, LeBron plays on teams that usually have a lot of shooters. You go on and on about how he doesn't get double teamed, but part of that is because he's such a good passer that double teaming him is going to give easy shots to his team Chris Paul doesn't get double teamed either:confusedshrug:

the "shadow doubling" that someone brought up earlier would be better described as "shading" which teams are UNDOUBTEDLY more free to do today.

[sdot_thadon]

You want to get into a quoting war - every professional has quotes where someone said something nice about them.. I can post quotes about Mario Chalmers where guys were saying he was emerging as a team leader.

For every politically correct quote and platitude given to the formal media about Pippen, I can provide quotes where those same guys said the Bulls were a 1-man team..

Of course, there are other quotes where guys are keeping it real on social media and saying what they REALLY think.. There are tons of quotes like this where guys said Pip was trash.



It's a moot point - even if you think Pippen is all-world, he still represents less help than Magic, Bird, Duncan, or Lebron had... All those guys needed multiple HOF's to win a championship, while MJ only needed 1 to three-peat... HOF Pippen doesn't compare to:

Kareem/Worthy
McHale/Parish/DJ
Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
Wade/Bosh/Allen.

Like, there's a reason MJ had to lead the league in scoring for all of the Bulls rings: he had the least help ever... 2+2=4... MJ can't lead the league in scoring but somehow NOT have the least help.
.
Right, only that quote was from Mj himself in 96. All of those things I posted were from the moment, 1996. Not 20 years later trying to manufacture a narrative that didn't exist.

Mj had one hof teammate and the goat coach 1st 3peat, 2 hof teammates(3 if you count bench players late in their careers Ala allen. Parish) and the goat coach. And you say this as if Miami wouldn't have beat all of the bulls finals opponents as well....

Mj led the league in scoring, not because it was necessary but because he wanted to. He actively thought about scoring titles. The coaching staff battled with him to accept the triangle.

[HurricaneKid]

I destroyed him

Good god. The abject lack of self awareness is shocking.

This will be the last time I address you. You don't have a cursory understanding of the game and how it has changed over the years and no matter who tries to explain it to you, you just scream over them. So I for one am done trying.

Welcome to ignore. Its been a long time coming.

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


How long does it take you to put one toe out of the paint from the middle of the paint?



Even if Speights was running, it would take him 2-4 seconds go from under the rim, to the block 8 feet away, and back to under the rim.

8 feet is a big distance - I don't know where you get the idea that you can go 8 feet and back in a tenth of a second - that's physically impossible and a completely ridiculous notion.

I don't think you understand the rule - today's defenders have to hug their man everywhere in the paint, to remain in the paint - for example, they can't stand under the rim while their man is 15 feet away at the top portion of the paint, by the ft line.. They have to go stand right next to their man in the top portion of the paint... Whereas, defenders in previous eras could stand under the rim while their man was at the top of the paint/near ft line.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif


This idea of wide open paints is bogus. You're only getting that from LeBron clips.



Are you blind or insane?

In today's game, every single possession of every single game shows an open paint... See the Austin Rivers drive above?... That's an open paint and that's the case on EVERY possession in today's game...

Can you guess how long it takes me to find another possession with an open paint... 10 seconds - I click on youtube, type say, "miami spurs" and bam - I have a highlight video where substantially every possession shows an open paint.





but part of that is because he's such a good passer that double teaming him is going to give easy shots to his team


:roll:

This is factually incorrect - Lebron is bad at the additional midrange required of high volume shooters, so he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume - his inability to have good efficiency at high volume means teams don't have to PREVENT him from high volume by double-teaming.. There's no danger in letting Lebron shoot 39%.. :confusedshrug:





"shading" which teams are UNDOUBTEDLY more free to do today.


Just not INSIDE the paint - inside the paint, defenders must remain within "armslength".. That's the most restrictive rules governing defense could possibly be.

However, today's defenders have more freedom outside the paint, except it's a strategic freedom - PHYSICALLY, they're still more restricted outside the paint than previous eras, while still being far more restricted inside the paint by the "armslength" restriction.

It should be mentioned that previous era defenders weren't as restricted outside the paint as today's defenders are inside the paint - previous era defenders never had to stay within "armslength" ANYWHERE on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules of previous eras.
.

[20Four]

Good.. Get going.

You didn't even understand what me and Indian Guy were discussing anyway and how he was arguing something completely different and unrelated to what was in the OP.
3ball no need to argue with peasants, we all know that LeBRONZE has no game....its ok no need to explain to the stans....talking to them is like talking to a brick wall

[Trollsmasher]

not being able to camp in the paint actually gives an advantage to the defenders as they generally come to contest with some momentum which enables them to defend in front of the rim, improving their Lateral Point of Contest, instead of defending from below the rim which was how they generally defended in the pre '00s era and which most of the time resulted in a poster as the defender comes into the challenge too late and the attacker already has a big enough momentum to easily finish

once again '00s and on > previous eras

[3ball]

Mj had one hof teammate and the goat coach 1st 3peat


Amazing - MJ's supporting cast was so thin, that he's literally the ONLY player in history where the coach must be included to fill out his "supporting cast"

Can you say: daaaa GOAT

[20Four]

Amazing - MJ's supporting cast was so thin, that he's literally the ONLY player in history where the coach must be included to fill out his "supporting cast"

Can you say: daaaa GOAT

http://i.imgur.com/OyrwN00.gif

WTF is there to observe? Failure?? :roll:

Nikka can't even handle the ball in critical situations, no shit he lets his IRVING (the real MVP on the team) handle the ball

[Hey Yo]

http://i.imgur.com/OyrwN00.gif

WTF is there to observe? Failure?? :roll:

Nikka can't even handle the ball in critical situations, no shit he lets his IRVING (the real MVP on the team) handle the ball
What was the "critical situation" above?

What quarter was it? What was the score?

Why wasn't Irving in the game if it was such a critical situation in a reg. season game?

[sdot_thadon]

Amazing - MJ's supporting cast was so thin, that he's literally the ONLY player in history where the coach must be included to fill out his "supporting cast"

Can you say: daaaa GOAT
Yeah that's a 3ball white flag, what happens when you can't refute.

[knicksman]

Anyone who has been the best in their life knows that they dont need to prove themselves through stats. They just let the result speak for themselves. So if bran really is the best, he shouldve foregone stats along time ago. Jordan did it, kobe, duncan, russell did it because they knew they are the best. Meanwhile bran, wilt, oscar arent so they cant let go of stats.

[sdot_thadon]

Anyone who has been the best in their life knows that they dont need to prove themselves through stats. They just let the result speak for themselves. So if bran really is the best, he shouldve foregone stats along time ago. Jordan did it, kobe, duncan, russell did it because they knew they are the best. Meanwhile bran, wilt, oscar arent so they cant let go of stats.
So you mean to tell me Mj wasn't concerned with stats? The mythology continues...

[knicksman]

So you mean to tell me Mj wasn't concerned with stats? The mythology continues...

Statpadding is the reason why mj was a loser early in his career Dumby

[sdot_thadon]

Statpadding is the reason why mj was a loser early in his career Dumby
I'm fully aware, just checking your temp. You seem a bit ill, somehow excluding mj from a stat aware group. They all are in some way or another. Some more than others, and some care about areas others dont.

[knicksman]

I'm fully aware, just checking your temp. You seem a bit ill, somehow excluding mj from a stat aware group. They all are in some way or another. Some more than others, and some care about areas others dont.

What matters is the time he won dumby.

[pauk]

3ball, i hope you realise that feeling the need to express the same contempt for one player and/or your partisan Jordan > assumptions since February 2014 with all your 6,657 posts shows only unhealthy Jordan bigotry and hence lack of appreciation for great basketball ability that may come from somewhere else & hence the game of basketball itself.... its called insecurity / envy as fan of not basketball, but one man, all in honor of one man...

...considering there is only one player you ever show/showed that contempt for of any player in NBA history it means you think that players basketball ability is the only one that intimidates...

[sdot_thadon]

What matters is the time he won dumby.
This, is what's known as cherry picking.

[3ball]

3ball, i hope you realise that feeling the need to express the same contempt for one player and/or your partisan Jordan > assumptions since February 2014 with all your 6,657 posts shows only unhealthy Jordan bigotry and hence lack of appreciation for great basketball ability that may come from somewhere else & hence the game of basketball itself.... its called insecurity / envy as fan of not basketball, but one man, all in honor of one man...

...considering there is only one player you ever show/showed that contempt for of any player in NBA history it means you think that players basketball ability is the only one that intimidates...


the difference is that i can actually ball and i've played against a lot of guys you see on tv.. against someone like you, i'd dunk all over you (both via chest-to-chest and after a blow-by/ankle break) and abuse you worse than anyone's ever abused you at anything in your entire life.

from what i can tell, none of you guys know what that's like.. i use this knowledge and experience when evaluating the game, past and present.

that's how i know ball-dominance is suboptimal - like, I was watching the 2011 Finals with my sister, and it hit me - this ***** can't operate without a live dribble.. he sucks.. i told my sister about it and she actually understood what i was saying (unlike you guys).. now guys like gilbert arenas are saying the same thing 4 years later.
.

[kamil]

3ball, do you spend as much time chasing skirts as you do making all the lebron* hating threads?

I mean, even I cant be bothered to shit on LeBron* this much.

[3ball]

So, again, you couldn't have been more wrong about LeBron's style of play leading to underachieving offenses and ORtg


No one is arguing that Lebron's teams have bad ORtg's.. The argument is that Lebron's playing style prevents his team from using optimal strategy (like the Spurs or Warriors), which causes team underachievement - underachievement is the argument, not ORtg.. The Heat can have a satisfactory ORtg and still be losing and/or underachieving given their talent.

From 2009-2011, Lebron's team was the favored 1-seed and had equal talent to the opponent that beat them (they also had equal talent in 2014) - but team chemistry and their brand of basketball was inferior to the opponent each time.. As the franchise player, Lebron and his one-dimensional, ball-dominant style is the biggest factor affecting chemistry and the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball that dooms Lebron's team to a loss, thus rendering his stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).
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[knicksman]

This, is what's known as cherry picking.

Lol i said foregone dumby

[Stu Jackson]

isolation game is overrated unless you are mj or dirk or kd or king or even bird but lebron doesnt have a great j and basketball is never one on one at the rim

need to have one if you are gonna post unless you have a pet move like a hook or wheel and under and he doesnt

[3ball]

isolation game is overrated unless you are mj or dirk or kd or king or even bird but lebron doesnt have a great j and basketball is never one on one at the rim

need to have one if you are gonna post unless you have a pet move like a hook or wheel and under and he doesnt



but in today's game it can be 1 on 0, since defenders must help from outside the paint, due to spacing and defensive 3 seconds.

so quick players in today's game have the opportunity to beat the help defense to the rim, whereas this wasn't possible in previous eras, since defenders could WAIT in the paint and under the rim.

Obviously, if there were no 3-pointers, today's 3-pointers/layups strategy (3-and-D) doesn't work - however, the strategy also needs 3-pointers to open it up and create greater potential for the layups portion of the shot allocation strategy.. Today's defensive 3 seconds rule helps to clear the lane for greater layup potential, in addition to the aforementioned spacing.

[Stu Jackson]

but in today's game it can be 1 on 0, since defenders must help from outside the paint, due to spacing and defensive 3 seconds.

so quick players in today's game have the opportunity to beat the help defense to the rim, whereas this wasn't possible in previous eras, since defenders could WAIT in the paint and under the rim.
they still get there in time no team leaves the rim open even with these sissy stretch 4s there is always someone

it was better back when stars had to navigate through herds though i give you that

was pure artistry on the court watching mj make his way through

and even if kids dont know he didnt have to just weave because he could POWER IT DOWN on any big man

[3ball]

they still get there in time no team leaves the rim open even with these sissy stretch 4s there is always someone

it was better back when stars had to navigate through herds though i give you that


Exactly, because even though today's defenders can "get there in time", that's not as good as being there waiting, where there is no chance you can be late.

Today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds keep the paint open for most of the possession, so quicker players have more opportunity game to beat the help defense to the rim.. The hand-check ban makes it even easier.

Quick sidenote on related topic - obviously, if there were no 3-pointers, today's 3-pointers/layups strategy (3-and-D) wouldn't work - however, the strategy also needs 3-pointers to open it up and create greater potential for the layups portion of the shot allocation strategy..

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule helps to clear the lane for greater layup potential as well, in addition to the aforementioned spacing.

[Stu Jackson]

Exactly, because even though today's defenders can "get there in time", that's not as good as being there waiting, where there is no chance you can be late.

Today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds keep the paint open for most of the possession, so quicker players have more opportunity in today's game to beat the help defense to the rim.. The hand-check ban makes it even easier.

Quick sidenote on related topic - obviously, if there were no 3-pointers, today's 3-pointers/layups strategy (3-and-D) wouldn't work - however, the strategy also needs 3-pointers to open it up and create greater potential for the layups portion of the shot allocation strategy..

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule helps to clear the lane for greater layup potential as well, in addition to the aforementioned spacing.
the 3 pointer is a sissy shot

everybody back then used to call it one

NOBODY respects it

hand check ban is shit back in the 70s it was allowed and they limited it then

theyve limited it TWO MORE TIMES since then WHAT BULLSHIT

you are a good poster you and warriorfan are the only two on here who know how it is

[3ball]

the 3 pointer is a sissy shot

everybody back then used to call it one

NOBODY respects it


the 3-pointer opens up the court for wider driving lanes, which has helped the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick.. The wider driving lanes coupled with the extra point provided by the 3-pointer on each conversion, has increased the efficiency on drive-and-kick so much that today's game is now based on it.

However, in the 80's, there was little or no 3-point shooting, so drive-and-kick wasn't worthwhile or used much - that's how we know Lebron would be worse in the 80's - without screen-roll/drive-and-kick being a primary option, the only options left are things he's average to bad at: midrange, off-ball, isolation and post play.





you are a good poster you and warriorfan are the only two on here who know how it is


It's remarkable how important a midrange game is - Lebron's lack of midrange ability doesn't only make him worse in the 80's.. It also makes him incapable of having good efficiency at higher shot volumes, since additional mid-range is required of high volume shooters (you can't get 30 fga per game on all 3-and-D).

Of course, Lebron's inability to shoot well at high volumes means he doesn't require double-teaming - what's the danger in letting Lebron shoot a lot at 39%?.. His inability to command a double-team uncomplicates the opponent's defense and makes him highly exploitable.. He might be able to beat lesser teams with horrible efficiency, but it's not good enough to beat championship-level teams - championship teams aren't championship teams by letting someone beat them shooting 39%.
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