Where would Jordan rank if he never came out of retirement?

[Rocketswin2013]

'85 - '93 is all you get. In this scenario, he never regains the passion to play.

Where would he rank? Could you put him above a guy like Duncan?

[lilteapot]

He'd still be the GOAT.

Close the thread now.

[inclinerator]

top 3 assuming he won those years, but he wouldnt have due to fatigue

[sdot_thadon]

It would change alot of things, especially that pertain to this current era. Due to simple ring counting kobe would be greater all time? Duncan? Shaq? Magic? He'd definitely be a push against a bunch of guys he's seen as head and shoulders above now.

[Bankaii]

3x FMVP, 3x MVP, 7x All NBA 1st team, 9x All Star, 7x Scoring champ, 6x All Defense 1st Team, DPOTY, ROTY, Dunk Contest Champ. All this along with one of the most dominating Finals performance of all time along with Shaq.
Top 3 at worst, mostly likely 2nd behind Kareem.

[bizil]

Peak wise, he would still have been the best of all time for perimeter players. Overall, I put Wilt and Kareem on MJ's level peak wise. GOAT wise, I don't think he would have been #1. His three peat was EPIC, but I think Kareem, Russ, Wilt, and Magic would still be ahead of him GOAT wise.

And many would still argue Bird too. As the years went on, I think Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan would have passed him by GOAT wise too. People gotta realize that MJ retired at ONLY 30 years of age. So MJ would still be in the top 10 GOAT. But NOT #1.

As impressive as his accolades were as of 1993, he needed MORE ACCOLADES to be the GOAT. When he came out of retirement, he sealed the deal on the GOAT. When people were saying MJ was the best of all time from 87-93, it was from a PEAK LEVEL or BEST PLAYER perspective.

Peak value AND GOAT status are two totally different things. Because as of 1993, he wasn't FOR SURE ANY BETTER GOAT wise than Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russ, or Kareem.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Higher than bron, lower than the bean

[Hey Yo]

3x FMVP, 3x MVP, 7x All NBA 1st team, 9x All Star, 7x Scoring champ, 6x All Defense 1st Team, DPOTY, ROTY, Dunk Contest Champ. All this along with one of the most dominating Finals performance of all time along with Shaq.
Top 3 at worst, mostly likely 2nd behind Kareem.

:applause:

[GIF REACTION]

Like 5-7

Essentially where Lebron is now

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Top 3.

Wilt, Kareem, MJ

Possibly Magic at 3 so make it top 4

[Beastmode88]

Like 5-7

Essentially where Lebron is now

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mjl.gif

[jstern]

He was considered the goat by a lot even before his first ring. But perhaps people were considering that he would continue at that level past 93.

[Mike Armstrong]

He was considered the goat by a lot even before his first ring. But perhaps people were considering that he would continue at that level past 93.

Yarp.

[ClipperRevival]

Had MJ retired in 1993, here are his career numbers.

Regular season

32.3 ppg, .516 fg %, 6.3 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.7 spg, 29.8 PER

Playoffs.

34.7 ppg, .501 fg%, 6.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.3 spg, 29.6 PER

[ClipperRevival]

As for the question, I would say top 3 at worst. Sure, others would have longevity over him but what MJ had was sheer dominance from start to finish. And capping off his career with a 3 peat carries a lot of weight. Not to mention, his efficiency was off the charts. He is already the all time leader in regular season and playoff ppg and PER, but as the numbers show above, he really would've blown everyone out the water had he retired in 1993. He just reached a level and maintained that level that was never quite seen before. Not just scoring but the efficiency.

KAJ, Russell would have good cases over MJ but I still think MJ would get serious consideration as the GOAT.

[ClipperRevival]

He was considered the goat by a lot even before his first ring. But perhaps people were considering that he would continue at that level past 93.

No he wasn't. People kept saying, "yeah, he scores a lot but he can't win. He isn't a winner like Magic and Bird." There was a huge monkey on MJ's back. Many thought he would never win a ring. That's why he was so emotional when he won his first ring, crying on the floor, overcome with emotion in the locker room. And fittingly, against Magic's Lakers.

[bizil]

As of 1993, I think he would be more in the the top 5-7 range:

Kareem
Russ
Wilt
Magic
Bird

As of 1993, WHY WOULD MJ trump those guys FOR SURE at that time GOAT wise? People confuse peak value with GOAT status.

As the years went on, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan ALL accumulated resumes that would have been superior overall to MJ's as well too. And we have Lebron coming strong as well. Peak value CAN ONLY TAKE YOU SO FAR. If MJ retired for good in '93, NO WAY would he be GOAT.

I could see him ranked ANYWHERE from 5th to 8th as of 2015 if he stayed retired. But HIS influence on pop culture and peak value give him a god like status only reached by guys like Ali, Babe Ruth, and Jim Brown.

[ClipperRevival]

As of 1993, I think he would be more in the the top 5-7 range:

Kareem
Russ
Wilt
Magic
Bird

As of 1993, WHY WOULD MJ trump those guys FOR SURE at that time GOAT wise? People confuse peak value with GOAT status.

As the years went on, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan ALL accumulated resumes that would have been superior overall to MJ's as well too. And we have Lebron coming strong as well. Peak value CAN ONLY TAKE YOU SO FAR. If MJ retired for good in '93, NO WAY would he be GOAT.

I could see him ranked ANYWHERE from 5th to 8th as of 2015 if he stayed retired. But HIS influence on pop culture and peak value give him a god like status only reached by guys like Ali, Babe Ruth, and Jim Brown.

Yeah, but MJ's floor was better than most great's peaks. And his peak was GOAT level. And there wasn't that much separating his floor from his peak. So it's not like he had seasons where his play dipped. He was dominant from start to finish.

Most great players peak at some point and never match that level and their play dips. MJ's play up until 1993 was video game stuff in terms of the points he was putting up AND the efficiency. Not to mention his D.

I could see the case for top 5 at worst but nothing past that. Not when you consider the level of play he maintained up until 1993. Where other greats might've had longevity, MJ had sheer dominance over a 10 year stretch. Like I said in the above post, he would've destroyed the reg season and playoffs ppg and PER (he still leads all categories as it stands). There are levels to greatness and the level he maintained up until 1993 still gives him a pretty decent chance as GOAT imo. Of course I could see people who value longevity dropping him a tad.

[ClipperRevival]

To further elaborate, most greats peak during a 2-4 season period. And after that, they are never able to match that level. MJ's peak is probably 1991-1993. But take those seasons away and see what he did from 1984-1990.

32.8 ppg, 29.9 PER, .516%, 6.6 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.8 spg

Those are numbers that even the greatest ever, at their peak, never reach, let alone average over 6 years. And on top of that, these are supposedly his "down" years. And this is exactly what I mean when I say that his floor wasn't that far removed from his peak. So the level that he maintained from 1984-1993 is unparalleled in the history of the game. It was consistent, all time level dominance.

Again, if you value longevity, I can see someone dropping him a tad. But I don't think he can drop lower than 5, at worst.

[julizaver]

'85 - '93 is all you get. In this scenario, he never regains the passion to play.

Where would he rank? Could you put him above a guy like Duncan?

Yes. At his peak he was second to Shaq as a best player in the league. At his Jordan was second to no one.

[Timmy D for MVP]

He was already being called the GOAT and he would still have been.

However it would not have been as open and shut as it is today. It would have left a lot of room for debate.

[I<3NBA]

wtf is this shit?

i mean, he's already number 1. how would his ranking change if he played 2 years more?

[Fire Colangelo]

What would put Jordan above Magic or Bird...? They were just as dominant in their prime/peak and won just as many, if not more rings.

What would put Jordan above Shaq? Who was equally as dominant at his peak, has longevity on his side, as well as more rings?

I mean, yeah some people were already crowning him as GOAT, but I'm sure they assumed that he'd continue his dominance past 93....

[ClipperRevival]

He was already being called the GOAT and he would still have been.

However it would not have been as open and shut as it is today. It would have left a lot of room for debate.

Pretty much. The debates would've been heated. But MJ put that to bed with another 3 peat. Lol.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I remember 93, even though I was 7. But I remember the consensus of people I knew would say Jordan is the best ever. My sisters got me into basketball by telling me I need to watch MJ since he's the best ever. Kids at school I knew said he was the best ever. My uncles, people on the b-ball courts who were older, etc all would say he's the GOAT

Could be prisoner of the moment shit but they were all right :confusedshrug:

I think he'd still be GOAT because his peak play was phenomenal, and a 3 peat after only 8 seasons is GOAT caliber shit. He'd still have all the scoring titles, accolades, but not the longevity. I actually think MJ not returning would change the way we rank other players too. I think we'd put a lot more stock into peak play/numbers opposed to just ring counts

[Kobe_6/8]

wtf is this shit?

i mean, he's already number 1. how would his ranking change if he played 2 years more?

He means if MJ retired after 1992-1993 and never played again.

[el gringos]

Kind of like Barry sanders vs enmitt smith. Emmitt is the all time guy by the numbers.............. And............

[kshutts1]

To further elaborate, most greats peak during a 2-4 season period. And after that, they are never able to match that level. MJ's peak is probably 1991-1993. But take those seasons away and see what he did from 1984-1990.

32.8 ppg, 29.9 PER, .516%, 6.6 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.8 spg

Those are numbers that even the greatest ever, at their peak, never reach, let alone average over 6 years. And on top of that, these are supposedly his "down" years. And this is exactly what I mean when I say that his floor wasn't that far removed from his peak. So the level that he maintained from 1984-1993 is unparalleled in the history of the game. It was consistent, all time level dominance.

Again, if you value longevity, I can see someone dropping him a tad. But I don't think he can drop lower than 5, at worst.
I think it's important to mention that stats don't count for any player ever unless they're also playing on a successful team.

I disagree with that notion, but that's the commonly held belief. So I find it incredibly misleading to point out that Jordan's stats were nearly similar, and completely leave out the difference in wins.

It would be more appropriate to say that Jordan's floor was a superstar player, maybe the most talented in the league, on a team that missed, or barely made, the playoffs.

[Rocketswin2013]

What would put Jordan above Magic or Bird...? They were just as dominant in their prime/peak and won just as many, if not more rings.

What would put Jordan above Shaq? Who was equally as dominant at his peak, has longevity on his side, as well as more rings?

I mean, yeah some people were already crowning him as GOAT, but I'm sure they assumed that he'd continue his dominance past 93....
What makes you believe the bold?

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ was getting GOAT talk before he won a title. Realistically, after the first 3 peat he was in the discussion with Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Russell/Magic. As an individual, he would be recognized for his on-court prowess, but after 1993 as prolific as he was those aforementioned players had equal GOAT cases in terms of ability and team/personal accolades. 7 scoring titles, 3 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, 1 DPOY on his own merits warrants a high spot somewhere in the top 5.

So then, you look at guys who have since come along and built top 10 careers on their own ( Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan) and it muddles the situation. Really, MJ cemented his GOAT legacy in the 2nd 3peat. 3 more rings, 3 more scoring titles, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs is what gave him the 'near consensus' GOAT status he has now.

[kshutts1]

MJ was getting GOAT talk before he won a title. Realistically, after the first 3 peat he was in the discussion with Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Russell/Magic. As an individual, he would be recognized for his on-court prowess, but after 1993 as prolific as he was those aforementioned players had equal GOAT cases in terms of ability and team/personal accolades. 7 scoring titles, 3 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, 1 DPOY on his own merits warrants a high spot somewhere in the top 5.

So then, you look at guys who have since come along and built top 10 careers on their own ( Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan) and it muddles the situation. Really, MJ cemented his GOAT legacy in the 2nd 3peat. 3 more rings, 3 more scoring titles, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs is what gave him the 'near consensus' GOAT status he has now.
The bolded is not wrong, at all. I remember hearing that. But it is misleading. We NEVER give GOAT talk nowadays prior to a title being won. Times have changed. And with that, expectations and standards have changed.

[scandisk_]

KAJ and Magic would be heavily favored as the G.O.A.Ts. I kinda feel Magic fell a lil bit on the charts cause of MJ (6 vs 5). MJ would probably sit in the TOP 5 range comfortably.

[Marchesk]

MJ was getting GOAT talk early on in part because the league was ready to market him big time. At first the GOAT talk was Bird, and then MJ shortly after that. No mention of Kareem, Russell or Wilt in that conversation by the media. Not a lot of mention about how Dr J and Elgin Baylor paved the way.

[Dragonyeuw]

The bolded is not wrong, at all. I remember hearing that. But it is misleading. We NEVER give GOAT talk nowadays prior to a title being won. Times have changed. And with that, expectations and standards have changed.

Yes I know, and in retrospect it was premature. It was really more a testament to how much MJ captured our imaginations at that point in time. But yes, standards for how we measure GOAT players has changed, and in large part because of MJ himself. All the best players nowadays are being measured against what MJ accomplished.

[Dragonyeuw]

KAJ and Magic would be heavily favored as the G.O.A.Ts. I kinda feel Magic fell a lil bit on the charts cause of MJ (6 vs 5). MJ would probably sit in the TOP 5 range comfortably.

Yeah, but we're looking at what MJ's career was after 93. Magic's career accolades measured up at that point. Just looking at Jordan, Magic, and Bird, Magic had the most rings 5 to 3 for Jordan/Bird, all three had 3 MVPs, I think both Magic and MJ had 3 FMVPs and Bird 2. MJ had the scoring titles and DPOY award... I mean looking at the sum of all that you could give MJ a slight edge in 93, but I personally don't think it placed him in an entirely different tier at that point. It was much more arguable then as far as straight-up career accolades.

[Marchesk]

Yes I know, and in retrospect it was premature. It was really more a testament to how much MJ captured our imaginations at that point in time. But yes, standards for how we measure GOAT players has changed, and in large part because of MJ himself. All the best players nowadays are being measured against what MJ accomplished.

Dr J would have done the same if basketball had been as popular in the 70s. While I agree with people ranking MJ as GOAT, let's not forget that his timing couldn't have been better from a marketing perspective.

And yes, there were people back in the 70s who thought Erving was the best player they'd ever seen.

[Dragonyeuw]

Dr J would have done the same if basketball had been as popular in the 70s. While I agree with people ranking MJ as GOAT, let's not forget that his timing couldn't have been better from a marketing perspective.

And yes, there were people back in the 70s who thought Erving was the best player they'd ever seen.

Of course, it's all a matter of timing and era. There are still folks( typically older) who swear that Oscar was the best they've seen. Every generation has their own GOAT player who was better than the rest, that's how it goes.

[Iceman#44]

Goat

[Kobe_6/8]

MJ was getting GOAT talk before he won a title. Realistically, after the first 3 peat he was in the discussion with Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Russell/Magic. As an individual, he would be recognized for his on-court prowess, but after 1993 as prolific as he was those aforementioned players had equal GOAT cases in terms of ability and team/personal accolades. 7 scoring titles, 3 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, 1 DPOY on his own merits warrants a high spot somewhere in the top 5.

So then, you look at guys who have since come along and built top 10 careers on their own ( Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan) and it muddles the situation. Really, MJ cemented his GOAT legacy in the 2nd 3peat. 3 more rings, 3 more scoring titles, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs is what gave him the 'near consensus' GOAT status he has now.

By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

[Fallen Angel]

I'd give Kareem my vote for the Greatest of All-Time. Michael Jordan would be second.

[sdot_thadon]

Lots of good points here. He definitely was getting goat hype immediately after his 1st ring, there were many detractors questioning whether he could win like the other greats. To me it's the main reason why ring counting is retared. Back on topic, he'd still have goat consideration I'm sure, but the field would be damn near wide open with many guys having strong enough cases to be considered goat. He'd be missing lots of things that solidified his case down the stretch of his career. A 2nd 3peat, 2 more Mvps, 3 more fmvps, epic performances like the flu game, he'd never have the storybook sequence from game 6 that was the perfect bookend for his career. What I think was most important though was in coming back and reinventing himself past prime but still maintaining a level of excellence near his previous self. People would say he was only great because of athleticism and he left the game before that left him. That 2nd half of his career was critical to his current status.

He'd be anywhere from goat to 7th all time. And that would be 5 more years away from the current era of ball. He wouldn't have been around to see the style change through either, so it could have been said he played in a weaker era as well without the late 90's run. Think about all the things people criticize when discussing goat ranking and far more of those would affect him than now.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Lots of good points here. He definitely was getting goat hype immediately after his 1st ring, there were many detractors questioning whether he could win like the other greats. To me it's the main reason why ring counting is retared. Back on topic, he'd still have goat consideration I'm sure, but the field would be damn near wide open with many guys having strong enough cases to be considered goat. He'd be missing lots of things that solidified his case down the stretch of his career. A 2nd 3peat, 2 more Mvps, 3 more fmvps, epic performances like the flu game, he'd never have the storybook sequence from game 6 that was the perfect bookend for his career. What I think was most important though was in coming back and reinventing himself past prime but still maintaining a level of excellence near his previous self. People would say he was only great because of athleticism and he left the game before that left him. That 2nd half of his career was critical to his current status.

He'd be anywhere from goat to 7th all time. And that would be 5 more years away from the current era of ball. He wouldn't have been around to see the style change through either, so it could have been said he played in a weaker era as well without the late 90's run. Think about all the things people criticize when discussing goat ranking and far more of those would affect him than now.

Do people consider 1989 or so to 1993 a week era? I do agree that the West got noticeably stronger in the late 90s. The East in my opinion got slightly weaker. Early/mid 90s Knicks and Pacers teams were arguably better than the late 90s ones. Dennis Rodman taking over for Horace Grant at PF made a huge difference. Grant was never going to be that dominant on the boards.

[kshutts1]

Do people consider 1989 or so to 1993 a week era? I do agree that the West got noticeably stronger in the late 90s. The East in my opinion got slightly weaker. Early/mid 90s Knicks and Pacers teams were arguably better than the late 90s ones. Dennis Rodman taking over for Horace Grant at PF made a huge difference. Grant was never going to be that dominant on the boards.
I'm pretty sure the NBA added something like 8 teams during Jordan's career alone. I don't remember the exact number. The "era", as a whole, is considered weak because of expansion.

[sdot_thadon]

Do people consider 1989 or so to 1993 a week era? I do agree that the West got noticeably stronger in the late 90s. The East in my opinion got slightly weaker. Early/mid 90s Knicks and Pacers teams were arguably better than the late 90s ones. Dennis Rodman taking over for Horace Grant at PF made a huge difference. Grant was never going to be that dominant on the boards.
Not by my standards, however it wouldn't be seen as him taking out a tough conference going 1st 3peat only. Going by the stuff I see around here, the late 90's was when the east was best because they had lots of 50 win teams during the 2nd 3peat. Also it could be said that his only rings came after the other goats got old or retired. Early pacers were pretenders, they weren't ever legit title threats till later on. Knicks were basically the current bulls, so whatever you think of their contender status I'd apply that to those knicks.


I'm pretty sure the NBA added something like 8 teams during Jordan's career alone. I don't remember the exact number. The "era", as a whole, is considered weak because of expansion.
This too. The number is actually 6.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm pretty sure the NBA added something like 8 teams during Jordan's career alone. I don't remember the exact number. The "era", as a whole, is considered weak because of expansion.

In the 80's you basically needed 3 allstars to be a serious contender. In the 90's the blueprint was '2 stars plus quality roleplayers' with odd exceptions ( Hakeem in 94). So to me, while the league expanded, its not as though the Bulls were stacked like the 80s Lakers and Celtics playing in a 'watered down' 90's era. The Cavs, Knicks, Sonics, Suns, comparatively were as talented from man 1-12, even more so in some cases. The Bulls just happened to have the best player, with a legit complementary star in Pippen, a great coaching staff, and a system that allowed for productive role players. Which, really, is a general blueprint for many championship teams.

[choppermagic]

Top 10.

I think if there was a Karl Malone era winning rings in the late 90s instead of the Bulls, the mystique of Jordan would have worn off fast as ESPN couldn't hype him for such a long time. He'd be remembered as a great but not near the GOAT.

[Marchesk]

Top 10.

I think if there was a Karl Malone era winning rings in the late 90s instead of the Bulls, the mystique of Jordan would have worn off fast as ESPN couldn't hype him for such a long time. He'd be remembered as a great but not near the GOAT.

And in fact, after Jordan retired the first time, Penny started getting all the love as the next big thing (despite Shaq).

[Dragonyeuw]

Top 10.

I think if there was a Karl Malone era winning rings in the late 90s instead of the Bulls, the mystique of Jordan would have worn off fast as ESPN couldn't hype him for such a long time. He'd be remembered as a great but not near the GOAT.

You mean if Malone won in 1997 and 98? MJ would still have a top 10 career, but the mystique of 'never lost in the finals' would be gone. I mean, Orlando won that year with Bulls being paper-thin upfront, but no-one beat them in the finals to claim the throne. That's a big part of the legend.

[Marchesk]

You mean if Malone won in 1997 and 98? MJ would still have a top 10 career, but the mystique of 'never lost in the finals' would be gone. I mean, Orlando won that year with Bulls being paper-thin upfront, but no-one beat them in the finals to claim the throne. That's a big part of the legend.

I think he means if Jordan didn't come back after retirement, leaving the Jazz a great opportunity to get two titles.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Not by my standards, however it wouldn't be seen as him taking out a tough conference going 1st 3peat only. Going by the stuff I see around here, the late 90's was when the east was best because they had lots of 50 win teams during the 2nd 3peat. Also it could be said that his only rings came after the other goats got old or retired. Early pacers were pretenders, they weren't ever legit title threats till later on. Knicks were basically the current bulls, so whatever you think of their contender status I'd apply that to those knicks.


This too. The number is actually 6.

I actually kind of agree with that. I never took the Pacers seriously as contenders until maybe the late 90s for a bit and the 2003-2004 season when they had a pretty solid team that was a top 3 East team along with the Nets and Pistons.

[bizil]

Also as of 1993, MJ hadn't eclipsed what Dr. J had done either when u throw in the ABA stuff. Doc's TOTAL RESUME between both leagues was actually top five GOAT caliber as of 1993. Even to this day, Doc is ARGUABLY the GOAT SF when u factor in his ABA stuff.

In my opinion, the Dr. in many ways is the ultimate wild card when discussing the top 10 GOAT guys. What he did in his career AND basketball should EASILY be in the top 10 GOAT. He had all the criteria IN SPADES that u look for:

Multiple titles
Multiple MVPs
Over 30,000 points
Revolutionized his position
Was the face of the league (ABA and later NBA)
Awesome longevity being a great player

This was ACTUALLY the template MJ eclipsed after he came back from retirement. MJ took Doc's template and took it to the ULTIMATE LEVEL. In terms of style of play, being the face of the league, and winning championships.

MJ's career had more in common with Doc than any of the top 10 GOAT's in my opinion. By that I mean in terms of what he represented, style of play, and his influence on pop culture. MJ just added the epic all around game of guys like Bird, Magic, and Big O to it.

[Fire Colangelo]

What makes you believe the bold?

Umm... Magic is arguably the best offensive player to ever play the game, and Bird is one of the best all around players ever in his peak. You don't think they rival MJ impact wise?

Bird turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team in his rookie year btw. That's impact right there.

Not to mention the likes of Wilt and Russell would have a huge argument ahead of MJ as well.

So you're looking at:

KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

who all have solid cases over MJ.

Obviously a case could be made for Kobe, LeBron and Dr J as well.

So yeah, GOAT discussions would be a lot more open than it is today.

Obviously I'm not saying these players will be ranked above MJ, just that they'd have a good argument.

[jstern]

No he wasn't. People kept saying, "yeah, he scores a lot but he can't win. He isn't a winner like Magic and Bird." There was a huge monkey on MJ's back. Many thought he would never win a ring. That's why he was so emotional when he won his first ring, crying on the floor, overcome with emotion in the locker room. And fittingly, against Magic's Lakers.
There were old forum post from back then posted here that would say he's the goat, but hasn't won anything. And in one of the intros for his 1st or 2nd finals calls him the goat. He was considered the goat by a large portion, from what I remember. If not most.

Back then they judge the talent, here people argue about rings to judge players, especially younger people, since they don't have anything else to judge players by.

[bizil]

Umm... Magic is arguably the best offensive player to ever play the game, and Bird is one of the best all around players ever in his peak. You don't think they rival MJ impact wise?

Bird turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team in his rookie year btw. That's impact right there.

Not to mention the likes of Wilt and Russell would have a huge argument ahead of MJ as well.

So you're looking at:

KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

who all have solid cases over MJ.

Obviously a case could be made for Kobe, LeBron and Dr J as well.

So yeah, GOAT discussions would be a lot more open than it is today.

Obviously I'm not saying these players will be ranked above MJ, just that they'd have a good argument.

Well said! I think people often get seduced by MJ's peak play and his pop culture impact. But when u look at GOAT status u factor:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Career numbers
Peak value
Longevity being great
Impact on the sport

When u look at all of that, NO WAY would MJ be the GOAT as of 1993. When it comes to peak play, then OF COURSE u can make that case. But GOAT wise, he HAS NO CASE as #1 as of 1993.

[Fire Colangelo]

Well said! I think people often get seduced by MJ's peak play and his pop culture impact. But when u look at GOAT status u factor:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Career numbers
Peak value
Longevity being great
Impact on the sport

When u look at all of that, NO WAY would MJ be the GOAT as of 1993. When it comes to peak play, then OF COURSE u can make that case. But GOAT wise, he HAS NO CASE as #1 as of 1993.

Exactly.... when people were crowning MJ as the GOAT in the early 90s I'm sure they were assuming that he'd continue his dominance well into the late 90s.

[bizil]

Exactly.... when people were crowning MJ as the GOAT in the early 90s I'm sure they were assuming that he'd continue his dominance well into the late 90s.

I agree! MJ was EASILY on track to be the GOAT as of 1993. He had accomplished SO MUCH as of 1993, that it was a forgone conclusion that he would be the GOAT.

The SCARY PART is if MJ never retired until 2003. He's already the GOAT in general. But if never retired until age 40, I think these things had a great chance of happening:

- He breaks Kareem's scoring record
- He wins a minimum of 8 rings
- He wins at least two more MVPs

MJ left FIVE YEARS on the table due to his retirements. He was the best player in the world at 35 years of age. I see no reason why he wouldn't have still been a top five player in the world for a least a couple more season. And even with the Wizards, a past prime MJ was still an All Star caliber player.

[ClipperRevival]

Well said! I think people often get seduced by MJ's peak play and his pop culture impact. But when u look at GOAT status u factor:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Career numbers
Peak value
Longevity being great
Impact on the sport

When u look at all of that, NO WAY would MJ be the GOAT as of 1993. When it comes to peak play, then OF COURSE u can make that case. But GOAT wise, he HAS NO CASE as #1 as of 1993.

There are levels to greatness. And like I said in another post in this thread, MJ's floor seasons were better than the peak seasons for most all time great players. And his floor seasons weren't that far removed from his peak seasons. So he was pretty much playing at an all time great level from start to finish. How can that NOT carry tremendous weight when judging GOAT?

Based on what I have read from you in this thread, you seem to value "resume" a lot. That usually relates to longevity and accumulating numbers/awards, etc. But what about the actual level of play you produced when you played? Isn't THAT the most important factor along with winning?

And you add in 3 rings, 3 fmvp, 3 mvps, DPOY, All-NBA 1st teams and All-NBA 1st Defensive teams almost every year. He utterly devastated the league. I think he could've had a case for GOAT. Sure, he would've come up short on some longevity categories and rings, etc. but his sheer dominance can't be ignored. It's the same reason why some people still claim Wilt is the GOAT. Because he was so dominant at his peak despite his playoff failures. It's about context and weighing everything.

[eeeeeebro]

i have a good ideal
all of you who dont want jordan to be goat just simply make him not your personal goat... it might solve your haterism

[Hey Yo]

Would those currently considered in the top 10 benefit from taking almost 2yrs off from the game?

Would they have achieved better accolades (rest/let body heal) if they took the MJ route?

Would those just outside top 10 -15 rank higher if able to rest for 2yrs?

[Dbrog]

As of 1993, I think he would be more in the the top 5-7 range:

Kareem
Russ
Wilt
Magic
Bird

As of 1993, WHY WOULD MJ trump those guys FOR SURE at that time GOAT wise? People confuse peak value with GOAT status.

As the years went on, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan ALL accumulated resumes that would have been superior overall to MJ's as well too. And we have Lebron coming strong as well. Peak value CAN ONLY TAKE YOU SO FAR. If MJ retired for good in '93, NO WAY would he be GOAT.

I could see him ranked ANYWHERE from 5th to 8th as of 2015 if he stayed retired. But HIS influence on pop culture and peak value give him a god like status only reached by guys like Ali, Babe Ruth, and Jim Brown.

By far the most accurate post in the thread that I've seen. For those saying his "dominance" can't be ignored, also realize his quitting in his peak and never returning would also be impossible to ignore. There's literally no chance he breaks the top 5 in this scenario.

[GrapeApe]

Would those currently considered in the top 10 benefit from taking almost 2yrs off from the game?

Would they have achieved better accolades (rest/let body heal) if they took the MJ route?

Would those just outside top 10 -15 rank higher if able to rest for 2yrs?

How would giving up 2 years of your prime help you garner more accolades? Are you suggesting that it's actually beneficial to sacrifice prime years of play just to get "rest"? Do you know how absurd that sounds? Why would any player forego prime years just to have a little more energy past their prime? I think the whole "rest" thing is overblown anyway.

[Dbrog]

How would giving up 2 years of your prime help you garner more accolades? Are you suggesting that it's actually beneficial to sacrifice prime years of play just to get "rest"? Do you know how absurd that sounds? Why would any player forego prime years just to have a little more energy past their prime? I think the whole "rest" thing is overblown anyway.

It's true. Jordan probably wins 1 of the 2 matchups vs Hakeem and then proceeds to lose from 99-03'. Would it really effect his rating much if he had 7 chips and a few more seasons where he loses in the playoffs? Not in my opinion...in fact it probably helps him even though his "legend" would be tarnished (cause he would have lost in the Finals).

[ClipperRevival]

How would giving up 2 years of your prime help you garner more accolades? Are you suggesting that it's actually beneficial to sacrifice prime years of play just to get "rest"? Do you know how absurd that sounds? Why would any player forego prime years just to have a little more energy past their prime? I think the whole "rest" thing is overblown anyway.

I think wasting 2 prime years away would be a great idea. Think of all that rest!

[Dragonyeuw]

It's true. Jordan probably wins 1 of the 2 matchups vs Hakeem and then proceeds to lose from 99-03'. Would it really effect his rating much if he had 7 chips and a few more seasons where he loses in the playoffs? Not in my opinion...in fact it probably helps him even though his "legend" would be tarnished (cause he would have lost in the Finals).

I wonder if MJ even plays till 40 if he hadn't left in 93 and 98. I think he'd have played till 2000. Just a guess of course....

[Hey Yo]

How would giving up 2 years of your prime help you garner more accolades? Are you suggesting that it's actually beneficial to sacrifice prime years of play just to get "rest"? Do you know how absurd that sounds? Why would any player forego prime years just to have a little more energy past their prime? I think the whole "rest" thing is overblown anyway.
Obviously I'm not referring to just any player, just those who were carrying the load the majority of the time.

Staying in shape, shoot around daily w/o the grind of the reg. season and postseason would help with longevity which would poss. help in gaining more accolades.

[Stu Jackson]

top5 all time

[GrapeApe]

Obviously I'm not referring to just any player, just those who were carrying the load the majority of the time.

Staying in shape, shoot around daily w/o the grind of the reg. season and postseason would help with longevity which would poss. help in gaining more accolades.

Meh, there's diminishing returns. Eventually age is age, regardless of how "fresh" someone is. You cannot cheat father time. Prime years are inherently more valuable and have by far the greatest impact on a player's legacy. It's completely illogical to sacrifice prime years to have (maybe) slightly better longevity.