do you believe in wage slavery?

[RidonKs]

or is this another figment of the left imagination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)

(by the way, our political spectrum doesn't match our brains, i should be respectfully in the right for all that right brain activity whereas newt gingrich should be on the left for all his "executive functioning"...)


way back during the abolitionist movement, slave-holders put forward quite convincing arguments. they said that they had the moral high ground over northern industrialists because they owned their workers. as opposed to just renting them.

if i buy a car tomorrow, i know i am adding a major asset to my portfolio. i am aware of its value and will do what i can to limit depreciation. i will take very good care of my car.

if you rent a car, your only incentive is to use it and get back your deposit. if it begins to deteriorate, you can always rent a different car at the same market rate.

now replace cars with humans......


[QUOTE]Critics of wage work have drawn several similarities between wage work and slavery:

1. Since the chattel slave is property, his value to an owner is in some ways higher than that of a worker who may quit, be fired or replaced. The chattel slave's owner has made a greater investment in terms of the money he paid for the slave. For this reason, in times of recession, chattel slaves could not be fired like wage laborers. A "wage slave" could also be harmed at no (or less) cost. American chattel slaves in the 19th century had improved their standard of living from the 18th century[26] and, according to historians Fogel and Engerman plantation records show that slaves worked less, were better fed and whipped only occasionally

[navy]

Something is off about the way you portray words on the screen. Where are you from?

[RidonKs]

freedom and variety are the preconditions for human self-realization. nothing promotes this ripeness for freedom so much as freedom itself. this truth perhaps may not be acknowledged by those who have so often used this unripeness as an excuse for continuing repression.

but it seems to me to follow unquestionably from the very nature of man: the incapacity for freedom can only arise from a want of moral and intellectual power. to heighten this power is the only way to supply the want. but to do so presupposes the freedom, which awakens spontaneous activity.

those who do not comprehend this may justly be suspected of misunderstanding human nature and wishing to make men into machines.

:applause:

[RidonKs]

Something is off about the way you portray words on the screen. Where are you from?
uhh canada :lol

[Akrazotile]

or is this another figment of the left imagination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)

(by the way, our political spectrum doesn't match our brains, i should be respectfully in the right for all that right brain activity whereas newt gingrich should be on the left for all his "executive functioning"...)


way back during the abolitionist movement, slave-holders put forward quite convincing arguments. they said that they had the moral high ground over northern industrialists because they owned their workers. as opposed to just renting them.

if i buy a car tomorrow, i know i am adding a major asset to my portfolio. i am aware of its value and will do what i can to limit depreciation. i will take very good care of my car.

if you rent a car, your only incentive is to use it and get back your deposit. if it begins to deteriorate, you can always rent a different car at the same market rate.

now replace cars with humans......





What should we conclude from this?

probably that wage labour is no fundamentally no different from slavery; the only difference is that its temporary


Slaves are coerced by the threat of violence, and if they run away they are generally subject to recapture and return by the other members of the surrounding community. Slavery has nothing to do with conditions. Even with good conditions slavery would be offensive because you are legally forced into servitude with no alternative. Your freedom is forcibly taken.

Wage earners can leave and go do whatever they want. They can go hunt and forage and and build a tipi. They can go live in a monestary. They can move in with their mama and crowd fund a new business and make themselves the CEO. They cant be legally retained or restrained by force from living their lives however they please. Their prerogative to work for a wage is entirely theres, and there's a reason they do it. Because it's usually more palatable than any other options. Even so - they are free.

OP you are embarrassing yourself with your progressively more absurd idealism and your departure from basic reality. I truly hope you find a greater purpose for your life than whining that we arent turning civilization on its head in an impossible quest for utopia. There will ALWAYS be social hierarchies because its literally impossible for there not to be. Hopefully your refusal to understand this is just a phase.

[NumberSix]

or is this another figment of the left imagination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)

(by the way, our political spectrum doesn't match our brains, i should be respectfully in the right for all that right brain activity whereas newt gingrich should be on the left for all his "executive functioning"...)


way back during the abolitionist movement, slave-holders put forward quite convincing arguments. they said that they had the moral high ground over northern industrialists because they owned their workers. as opposed to just renting them.

if i buy a car tomorrow, i know i am adding a major asset to my portfolio. i am aware of its value and will do what i can to limit depreciation. i will take very good care of my car.

if you rent a car, your only incentive is to use it and get back your deposit. if it begins to deteriorate, you can always rent a different car at the same market rate.

now replace cars with humans......





What should we conclude from this?

probably that wage labour is no fundamentally no different from slavery; the only difference is that its temporary
The difference is free will.

[NumberSix]

OP you are embarrassing yourself with your progressively more absurd idealism and your departure from basic reality. I truly hope you find a greater purpose for your life than whining that we arent turning civilization on its head in an impossible quest for utopia. There will ALWAYS be social hierarchies because its literally impossible for there not to be. Hopefully your refusal to understand this is just a phase.
Like his fellow communists, they've all convinced themselves of how terribly oppressed they are by freedom.

[RidonKs]

Wage earners can leave and go do whatever they want.

The difference is free will.
as i already said, the difference is permanent v temporary. so whether you are fired or you leave on your own volition is irrelevant. while you are there, you are enduring wage slavery.

besides which i could point out how difficult it really is to leave the vast majority of middle income jobs out there... well not difficult

but have you ever asked people how much time they spent at their same job? then ask yourself what are the chances THAT job happened to be the one most perfectly suited for THAT individual, so much so that they could never consider leaving? those market mechanisms at work!

they stayed because it was the best thing available and leaving would be taking far too much effort and far too much risk. maybe they aren't a genius like henry ford but they know that much.

[sundizz]

I'm not reading that garbage.

What you are talking about is:

1. Physical + mental slavery (olden time)
2. Mental slavery (people r too stupid to get out of the hamster wheel - current times).

[RidonKs]

lol its not garbage man, this is stuff that was written in the 19th century DURING slavery, right at the time it was transitioning to abolitionism. at no time in american history besides perhaps post-depression was working conditions so on the minds of the working class...

but w/e thx for stopping by and saying its not worth reading

the mental slavery you clearly have a grasp on, at least based on your description which i agree with, is not divorced from the working conditions we all currently experience.

when 85% of us are working in middle management and below, without looking for many prospects for advancement, there is either something wrong with us or something wrong with our working conditions. since human beings don't actually change much aside from their environment, we can conclude that are working conditions are ****ed up. which is the topic of this thread nobody appears to care about for reasons i can't imagine :eek:

[sundizz]

I'm saying it is not worth it because if you are sitting around on an internet forum posting stuff like that you are chaining yourself to the slave class (not that realistically we can get out of it).

Under 1,000 control over 80% of wealth in the world. We are all slaves to the dollar.

It's just a mentality though. People get socialized to think they need to achieve, need to do this do that. My sister sends me articles daily about housing costs etc.

It's so easy to survive, have fun, etc nowadays but for billions of people to survive we must have FEAR. Society is designed to take that fear of the saber tooth tiger and turn it into a different fear (familial expectations, housing costs, doing something "meaningful" etc).

If everybody was all free and chill then the world couldn't go on with this many people. We must all be slaves for the sake of humanity.

It's coo to be okay with this. You are taking one for the proverbial team. It is why society looks down/outcasts/villifies people that step too far outside the realm of what is expected. They know subconsciously/fear people being that way because the fabric of humanity is built on subjugation.

Our world is so easily designed to be on cheat code if you are born into luck (e.g., America/any 1st world nation). However, our internal fears driven into our head at an early age by socialization deem us to be slaves.

[Akrazotile]

What OP doesnt understand is that having people work entry level jobs at low wages is what makes clothing, air conditioners, refrigerators, phones, food products, and lots more very affordable to the masses. The reason pay goes up within a corporate structure is because responsibility goes up. People wont invest their money, stress out about revenue figures, work off the clock, and rack their brain to come with new ideas for the same money as a guy who eats donuts while pulling a lever all day. Pay has to increase up the chain. In order to implement that type of heirarchy, AND provide products cheaply so everyday people can obtain them, the most replaceable positions will start out with low wages. Period.

The idea is that if you start working at mcdonalds or in a factory to support yourself at age 20, by the time youre 30 you should know the business well and likely worked your way up to some kind of assistant manager, specialist, whatever and make more money. (This is in not even mentioning the option to simply pursue a career through education or learning a trade on your own). The point is whatever you do choose to do, there are always ways to advance. Entry level jobs are for YOUNG adults, many of whom have the option to still live at home, or at least cohabitate with roommates to reduce costs.

Just bc YOU are bored and working yourself up imaging scenarios that barely exist where two hardworking parents in their mid forties are somehow both making minimum and cant afford anything, doesnt mean we need to warp the whole system for those rarified cases. I constantly defy people on here to even describe a scenario like that, and they cant. Government jobs, sales jobs, constructions jobs all pay reasonably and dont require a degrees. People who do things right usually end up supporting themselves.

Ridonks you need to go get a FUKKING HOBBY. You sound like a naive crybaby who just finished a freshman philosophy class and had his "eyes opened" by some bitter, whacked out left wing professor who preaches bullshit to students too young to realize it bc he hates the world bc he only makes 40k a year and has a wife he hates and cant even cheat bc he has erectile dysfunction.

Go be a fukking man and stop constantly crying like a bitch.

[GIF REACTION]

What OP doesnt understand is that having people work entry level jobs at low wages is what makes clothing, air conditioners, refrigerators, phones, food products, and lots more very affordable to the masses. The reason pay goes up within a corporate structure is because responsibility goes up. People wont invest their money, stress out about revenue figures, work off the clock, and rack their brain to come with new ideas for the same money as a guy who eats donuts while pulling a lever all day. Pay has to increase up the chain. In order to implement that type of heirarchy, AND provide products cheaply so everyday people can obtain them, the most replaceable positions will start out with low wages. Period.

The idea is that if you start working at mcdonalds or in a factory to support yourself at age 20, by the time youre 30 you should know the business well and likely worked your way up to some kind of assistant manager, specialist, whatever and make more money. (This is in not even mentioning the option to simply pursue a career through education or learning a trade on your own). The point is whatever you do choose to do, there are always ways to advance. Entry level jobs are for YOUNG adults, many of whom have the option to still live at home, of at least cohabitate with roommates to reduce costs.

Just bc YOU are bored and working yourself up imaging scenarios that barely exist where two hardworking parents in their mid forties are somehow both making minimum and cant afford anything, doesnt mean we need to warp the whole system for those rarified cases. I constantly defy people on here to even describe a scenario like that, and they cant. Government jobs, sales jobs, constructions jobs all pay reasonably and dont require a degrees. People who do things right usually end up supporting themselves.

Ridonks you need to go get a FUKKING HOBBY. You sound like a naive crybaby who just finished a freshman philosophy class and had his "eyes opened" by some bitter, whacked out left wing professor who preaches bullshit to students too young to realize it bc he hates the world bc he only makes 40k a year and has a wife he hates and cant cheap bc he has erectile dysfunction.

Go be a fukking man and stop constantly crying like a bitch.
Dude! This was a killer post!

[RidonKs]

What OP doesnt understand is that having people work entry level jobs at low wages is what makes clothing, air conditioners, refrigerators, phones, food products, and lots more very affordable to the masses. The reason pay goes up within a corporate structure is because responsibility goes up. People wont invest their money, stress out about revenue figures, work off the clock, and rack their brain to come with new ideas for the same money as a guy who eats donuts while pulling a lever all day. Pay has to increase up the chain. In order to implement that type of heirarchy, AND provide products cheaply so everyday people can obtain them, the most replaceable positions will start out with low wages. Period.

The idea is that if you start working at mcdonalds or in a factory to support yourself at age 20, by the time youre 30 you should know the business well and likely worked your way up to some kind of assistant manager, specialist, whatever and make more money. (This is in not even mentioning the option to simply pursue a career through education or learning a trade on your own). The point is whatever you do choose to do, there are always ways to advance. Entry level jobs are for YOUNG adults, many of whom have the option to still live at home, or at least cohabitate with roommates to reduce costs.

Just bc YOU are bored and working yourself up imaging scenarios that barely exist where two hardworking parents in their mid forties are somehow both making minimum and cant afford anything, doesnt mean we need to warp the whole system for those rarified cases. I constantly defy people on here to even describe a scenario like that, and they cant. Government jobs, sales jobs, constructions jobs all pay reasonably and dont require a degrees. People who do things right usually end up supporting themselves.

Ridonks you need to go get a FUKKING HOBBY. You sound like a naive crybaby who just finished a freshman philosophy class and had his "eyes opened" by some bitter, whacked out left wing professor who preaches bullshit to students too young to realize it bc he hates the world bc he only makes 40k a year and has a wife he hates and cant even cheat bc he has erectile dysfunction.

Go be a fukking man and stop constantly crying like a bitch.
get a clue man stop being mean

your first post was somewhat nice so i let it go

but then you go and top it off with something like this

golly gee willickers

[Akrazotile]

get a clue man stop being mean

your first post was somewhat nice so i let it go

but then you go and top it off with something like this

golly gee willickers


Im tryin to tell you for your own good dude. If you want to fixate your life on some cause, at least make it a realistic one.

Yours is the classic "too much time on a young persons hands, let me try and figure out a way to create utopia."

Its literally been a phase people jave gone through for thousands of years. And guess what? Still no utopia. The reason is because its impossible.

Pick your goals within the confines of reality. That doesnt mean dont dream big. But dream within the realm of sociologic reality. Otherwise your wasting a lot of effort on nothing.

[NumberSix]

Im tryin to tell you for your own good dude. If you want to fixate your life on some cause, at least make it a realistic one.

Yours is the classic "too much time on a young persons hands, let me try and figure out a way to create utopia."

Its literally been a phase people jave gone through for thousands of years. And guess what? Still no utopia. The reason is because its impossible.

Pick your goals within the confines of reality. That doesnt mean dont dream big. But dream within the realm of sociologic reality. Otherwise your wasting a lot of effort on nothing.
Creating a "utopia" always requires seizing people's freedoms.