Scoring differentials of the best players ever from the regular season to the playoff

[KembaWalker]

http://i.imgur.com/NrIOx9G.jpg

Wilt doe :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Interesting...

MJ's scoring and efficiency dropped considerably from his regular season numbers against the Bad Boys in his four playoff series H2H's from '88 thru '91 (and remove '91, when the Pistons were just a shell, and they REALLY decline.)

How about Shaq against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '02? SIGNIFICANT DECLINES.

How about Kareem against Thurmond from '71 thru '73? His numbers fell off the CLIFF. It was downright embarrassing.

Put Kobe in a Finals? :roll: :roll: :roll: Arguably the worst Finals performer by a Top-10 player all-time.

Hakeem? :roll: :roll: :roll: KING OF THE FIRST ROUND EXITS Hakeem.

Bird? He probably has the most post-season "flop jobs" by a Top-10 player all-time. Some downright putrid games, series, and even entire post-seasons.


Had Wilt not faced RUSSELL and his swarming Celtics, EIGHT TIMES, and then a Thurmond, who turned a peak Kareem into a worthless shot-jacker, TWO more times...he would have routinely had post-seasons of 30-35 ppg in the entire decade of the 60's.

Of course, had Chamberlain had the luxury of facing early round cannon-fodder, like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Shaqq, and Hakeem...and his numbers would have risen dramatically.

That chart shows Russell elevating his scoring in the playoffs. He didn't do it against WILT, though. His scoring and especially his FG%'s dropped thru the roof against Chamberlain. BTW, Wilt's FG% efficiency in his eight post-season series against Russell was almost exactly the same as his post-season FG% at that point in his career. He had a far greater impact on Russell's efficiency, than Russell did to Wilt's.


Of course, a "scoring" Chamberlain only played in 52 of his 160 post-season games, and 30 of those were against Russell. And all he could do in that span was average 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, and on a .505 FG% (in post-seasons that shot an eFG% of about .420 in that same span.)

Oh, and Russell FEASTED on the LAKERS in the decade of the 60's (except '69, when he couldn't score or shoot to save his life...and oh, BTW, that series was against WILT.)

Had Chamberlain had the good fortune to have faced the LAKERS even ONCE in the decade of the 60's, and he likely would own many post-season (and perhaps Finals) scoring and efficiency records.

As it was, here were Wilt's numbers against LA in the decade of the 60's...


'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[GIF REACTION]

Laz AKA the original 3ball

[LAZERUSS]

Laz AKA the original 3ball

I generally don't start topics. I just add TRUTH and FACTS to them.

As for Goofball...he runs anti-Lebron topics daily.

[DonDadda59]

Ilt :roll:

Cue the 3,000 word dissertation by Lazeruss blaming everyone and everything under the sun except Dippy for his free-falling RS to PS scoring (not even counting his 18 PPG in the finals).

[GIF REACTION]

We have to take era into account here. Jordan played in the illegal defense era where individual star stats were inflated. Although the differential is the same, the totals are lowered.

[DonDadda59]

We have to take era into account here. Jordan played in the illegal defense era where individual star stats were inflated. Although the differential is the same, the totals are lowered.

Every star perimeter player who was drafted in 1996 all of a sudden, all at the same time experienced their career high just after the NBA eliminated hand-checking in the middle of the 00s. But I'm sure that was just a coincidence.

Stop snitching.

[GIF REACTION]

Why just one year?

Not enough evidence to support your claim

[warriorfan]

So the stat that Ilt dominates the most in is choking during the playoffs? Nice.

[rmt]

That's a pretty damning stat for Wilt.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt by year

1960
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 33 ppg

1961
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 37 ppg

1962
RS: 50 ppg
PS: 35 ppg

1963
RS: 45 ppg
PS: Missed the playoffs

1964
RS: 37 ppg
PS: 35 ppg
F: 29 ppg

1965
RS: 35 ppg
PS: 29 ppg

1966
RS: 34 ppg
PS: 28 ppg

1967
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 18 ppg

1968
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 24 ppg

1969
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 14 ppg
F: 12 ppg

1970
RS: 27 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 23 ppg

1971
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 18 ppg

1972
RS: 15 ppg
PS: 15 ppg
F: 19 ppg

1973
RS: 13 ppg
PS: 10 ppg
F: 12 ppg

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt by year

1960
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 33 ppg

1961
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 37 ppg

1962
RS: 50 ppg
PS: 35 ppg

1963
RS: 45 ppg
PS: Missed the playoffs

1964
RS: 37 ppg
PS: 35 ppg
F: 29 ppg

1965
RS: 35 ppg
PS: 29 ppg

1966
RS: 34 ppg
PS: 28 ppg

1967
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 18 ppg

1968
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 24 ppg

1969
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 14 ppg
F: 12 ppg

1970
RS: 27 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 23 ppg

1971
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 18 ppg

1972
RS: 15 ppg
PS: 15 ppg
F: 19 ppg

1973
RS: 13 ppg
PS: 10 ppg
F: 12 ppg

And 10 playoff H2H's against Bellamy; 11 playoff H2H's with Reed as a starting center; 11 against Kareem; 17 against Thurmond; and 49 against Russell.

BTW, as an example... in Kareem's first four seasons, he averaged 31.6 ppg on a .556 FG% in his regular seasons. In that same span, he faced THURMOND in three straight playoff series covering 16 games. In those 16 games he averaged 24.3 ppg on a .438 FG%.

Oh, and in his greatest scoring season, '71-72, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% against the entire NBA, he faced THURMOND in six H2H's in the first round of the playoffs, and averaged 22.8 ppg on a .405 FG%. BTW, Thurmond averaged 25.0 ppg on a .437 FG% in that same series.

[rmt]

Wilt by year

1960
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 33 ppg

1961
RS: 38 ppg
PS: 37 ppg

1962
RS: 50 ppg
PS: 35 ppg

1963
RS: 45 ppg
PS: Missed the playoffs

1964
RS: 37 ppg
PS: 35 ppg
F: 29 ppg

1965
RS: 35 ppg
PS: 29 ppg

1966
RS: 34 ppg
PS: 28 ppg

1967
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 18 ppg

1968
RS: 24 ppg
PS: 24 ppg

1969
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 14 ppg
F: 12 ppg

1970
RS: 27 ppg
PS: 22 ppg
F: 23 ppg

1971
RS: 21 ppg
PS: 18 ppg

1972
RS: 15 ppg
PS: 15 ppg
F: 19 ppg

1973
RS: 13 ppg
PS: 10 ppg
F: 12 ppg

What happened in 1969?

[LAZERUSS]

What happened in 1969?

Ask his COACH, who was basically fired immediately after the Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

Of course, Wilt had entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. Oh, and in his "scoring" seasons, he played in 52 playoff games (30 of which were against RUSSELL), and had 11 games of 40+ points, including FOUR of 50+ (and with the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate in "must win" games.) So, he was hanging a 40+ point game in over 20% of his playoff games in that same span.

And for the record, he had post-season series in that span against RUSSELL of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.5 ppg, and 33.6 ppg.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LOL at Wilt being at -7.6 ... His playoff escapades couldn't be better explained than with this stat differential (and by "escapades", I mean his wild disappearing acts).

[LAZERUSS]

LOL at Wilt being at -7.6 ... His playoff escapades couldn't be better explained than w/ this stat differential (and by escapade I mean his wild disappearing acts).

:roll: :roll: :roll:

"Disappearing acts"...

In his 23 "Must win" playoff games...


12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points (including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

or his 37 "must win" and potentially "series clinching" playoff games...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[Poochymama]

:roll: at Wilt.

and people seriously try to say he wasn't a choker?

You should add finals differential too OP

[Young X]

What happened in 1969?Lost in the finals again to Russell (in his last season) and the Celtics with his teammate averaging 38 a game and winning FMVP.

Lakers had the better, more talented team and were expected to beat the old Celtics but lost game 7 on their homecourt. They prematurely made celebration plans, Russell got upset when he heard about it and guaranteed no matter what that they would lose...eventually leading his team, as a player-coach, in the last game of his career to a championship.

Wilt sat out the last few minutes because of an injury and Russell criticized him for it, basically saying he would've played if he was in Wilt's shoes. Wilt took offense to this and went years without talking to Russell (who was his close friend at the time).

[Rocketswin2013]

And 10 playoff H2H's against Bellamy; 11 playoff H2H's with Reed as a starting center; 11 against Kareem; 17 against Thurmond; and 49 against Russell.

BTW, as an example... in Kareem's first four seasons, he averaged 31.6 ppg on a .556 FG% in his regular seasons. In that same span, he faced THURMOND in three straight playoff series covering 16 games. In those 16 games he averaged 24.3 ppg on a .438 FG%.

Oh, and in his greatest scoring season, '71-72, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% against the entire NBA, he faced THURMOND in six H2H's in the first round of the playoffs, and averaged 22.8 ppg on a .405 FG%. BTW, Thurmond averaged 25.0 ppg on a .437 FG% in that same series.
Why is this always ignored? How do people rationalize this?

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: at Wilt.

and people seriously try to say he wasn't a choker?

You should add finals differential too OP

Down from 23 ppg in his regular seasons, to 18.6 ppg. Oh, of course, he faced Reed twice (and post-surgery in both), Russell, TWICE, and Thurmond ONCE (and HOF Lucas in another one...and again post-surgery.)

Oh, and he badly outrebounded those same guys, and collectively outshot them from the field by a .559 to .439 margin.

[LAZERUSS]

Lost in the finals again to Russell (in his last season) and the Celtics with his teammate averaging 38 a game and winning FMVP.

Lakers had the better, more talented team and were expected to beat the old Celtics but lost game 7 on their homecourt. They prematurely made celebration plans, Russell got upset when he heard about it and guaranteed no matter what that they would lose...eventually leading his team, as a player-coach, in the last game of his career to a championship.

Wilt sat out the last few minutes because of an injury and Russell criticized him for it, basically saying he would've played if he was in Wilt's shoes. Wilt took offense to this and went years without talking to Russell (who was his close friend at the time).

And in that game seven, Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter (he had five fouls and hid the entire period), and was badly outplayed by Chamberlain, who outscored him, 18-6; outshot him from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounded him, 27-21...all in five minutes less...in that two point loss.

Oh, and Russell apologized some 20 years later for his ridiculous remark (BTW, Russell missed two games in the '58 Finals, and parts of two more, with an injured ankle, and his team lost that series, 4-2.)

Oh, and West? Three years later, West had the worst post-season of his career, shooting .376 overall, and a paltry .325 in the Finals...BUT, won his ONLY ring...thanks to WILT, who dominated in that post-season, particularly in the Finals, en route to a FMVP.

[KembaWalker]

-7.6

[LAZERUSS]

Why is this always ignored? How do people rationalize this?

I have KAJ at #4 all-time. And I have a PEAK Kareem at #2 and just behind Wilt. BUT, in his first ten prime seasons, and pre-Magic...he went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring.

[KembaWalker]

And in that game seven, Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter (he had five fouls and hid the entire period), and was badly outplayed by Chamberlain, who outscored him, 18-6; outshot him from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounded him, 27-21...all in five minutes less...in that two point loss.

Oh, and Russell apologized some 20 years later for his ridiculous remark (BTW, Russell missed two games in the '58 Finals, and parts of two more, with an injured ankle, and his team lost that series, 4-2.)

Oh, and West? Three years later, West had the worst post-season of his career, shooting .376 overall, and a paltry .325 in the Finals...BUT, won his ONLY ring...thanks to WILT, who dominated in that post-season, particularly in the Finals, en route to a FMVP.

What were his stats again?

[LAZERUSS]

-7.6

Yep...going from 50 ppg down to 35 ppg is a huge decline...albeit, on far less FGAs.

You can probably give us all here a long list of players who put up 35-27 post-season runs, right?

Hell, I'm sure you can give us an almost limitless number of players who averaged 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot ten percent higher than the post-season league eFG% average...in their first 67 straight playoff games, right?

But, how about starting with just ONE GOAT, who put up just ONE playoff SERIES, in which he averaged a 30-27-5 and a +10% margin over the post-season league eFG% mark.

[SouBeachTalents]

I have KAJ at #4 all-time. And I have a PEAK Kareem at #2 and just behind Wilt. BUT, in his first ten prime seasons, and pre-Magic...he went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring.

In Wilt's first ten prime seasons he went to THREE Finals, and won ONE ring

[LAZERUSS]

What were his stats again?

By virtually ALL ACCOUNTS, THAT Chamberlain OUTPLAYED a PEAK Kareem in the WCF's (Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that SERIES)...and then hung a 19-23 .600 FG% Finals, which included the clinching game five (with a broken wrist no less) of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 8 blocked shots, and 29 rebounds (oh, and the entire NY team had 39 BTW.)

[KembaWalker]

By virtually ALL ACCOUNTS, THAT Chamberlain OUTPLAYED a PEAK Kareem in the WCF's (Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that SERIES)...and then hung a 19-23 .600 FG% Finals, which included the clinching game five (with a broken wrist no less) of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 8 blocked shots, and 29 rebounds (oh, and the entire NY team had 39 BTW.)

Don't dodge the question :roll: what were Wilt's stats in those playoff series

[LAZERUSS]

In Wilt's first ten prime seasons he went to THREE Finals, and won ONE ring

And he nearly beat the eventual champion in THREE game seven's in the ECF's THREE more times (losing them by margins of 2, 1, and 4 points.)

Meanwhile, Kareem lost in the first round with a 60+ win team once with HCA, in the second round to a far less talented team once, and then were blown out by that team in the second round the very next year, was swept with HCA in the WCF's in another, and missed the playoffs altogether, twice.

[LAZERUSS]

Don't dodge the question :roll: what were Wilt's stats in those playoff series

Same as his regular season numbers... 15-19 in the regular season, and 15-21 in the post-season.

[ClipperRevival]

:roll: at Wilt.

and people seriously try to say he wasn't a choker?

You should add finals differential too OP

Since you asked.

17 ppg in the finals.

Ouch.

I'm sorry but Wilt is the only guy who drops off that much. That just doesn't sit well with me. You can give a million excuses but it is what it is. If you are that great and capable of taking over, you should save your best for the playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

Since you asked.

17 ppg in the finals.

Ouch.

I'm sorry but Wilt is the only guy who drops off that much. That just doesn't sit well with me. You can give a million excuses but it is what it is. If you are that great and capable of taking over, you should save your best for the playoffs.

Nope... 19 ppg. And the decline was from 23 ppg. And against Russell, and Thurmond. You know, the same Thurmond that turned a peak Kareem into a worthless shot-jacker in their three post-season H2H series?

[KembaWalker]

Same as his regular season numbers... 15-19 in the regular season, and 15-21 in the post-season.

4th leading scorer on that team, but hey West got a ring 'only thanks to Wilt' right

[LAZERUSS]

Since you asked.

17 ppg in the finals.

Ouch.

I'm sorry but Wilt is the only guy who drops off that much. That just doesn't sit well with me. You can give a million excuses but it is what it is. If you are that great and capable of taking over, you should save your best for the playoffs.

BTW, give us all here MJ's regular season numbers, and then his post-season H2H numbers against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really, the '91 Pistons were just a shell.)

[LAZERUSS]

4th leading scorer on that team, but hey West got a ring 'only thanks to Wilt' right

You tell me. West shot .325 in that Finals...in a Finals in which Chamberlain DOMINATED the Knicks, and won a FMVP. Oh, and West averaged 19.8 ppg on that .325 shooting in that Finals, while Chamberlain was third on his team, at 19.2 ppg on a .600 FG% (as well as grabbing 23 rpg, and completely shutting down the lane.) Oh, and in the clinching game five win, Wilt scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 8 blocks, and 29 rebounds. West scored 23 points on 10-28 from the floor.

[ClipperRevival]

Nope... 19 ppg. And the decline was from 23 ppg. And against Russell, and Thurmond. You know, the same Thurmond that turned a peak Kareem into a worthless shot-jacker in their three post-season H2H series?

It is actually 18.63.

[rmt]

Ask his COACH, who was basically fired immediately after the Finals.

Don't think you can blame the coach over a 7 game series for these performances: West (37.9 pts), Baylor (18), Egan (15.1), Wilt (11.7). This was not the twilight of his career either. They were 30, 34, 30, and 32.

Dropping from regular season 21 to less than 12 in the Finals is terrible - a 4 point game and two 8 point games.

[SouBeachTalents]

BTW, give us all here MJ's regular season numbers, and then his post-season H2H numbers against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really, the '91 Pistons were just a shell.)

1988
RS: 35/6/6 54%
Pistons: 27/9/5 49%

1989
RS: 33/8/8 54%
Pistons: 30/6/7 46%

1990
RS: 34/7/6 53%
Pistons: 32/7/6 47%

1991
RS: 32/6/6 54%
Pistons: 30/5/7 54%

[LAZERUSS]

Don't think you can blame the coach over a 7 game series for these performances: West (37.9 pts), Baylor (18), Egan (15.1), Wilt (11.7). This was not the twilight of his career either. They were 30, 34, 30, and 32.

Dropping from regular season 21 to less than 12 in the Finals is terrible - a 4 point game and two 8 point games.

How about Baylor shooting 2-14 from the floor (and 1-6 from the line) in a one point loss: or 4-18 from the floor in a six point loss; or 8-22 from the field in a two point game seven loss?

[KembaWalker]

You tell me. West shot .325 in that Finals...in a Finals in which Chamberlain DOMINATED the Knicks, and won a FMVP. Oh, and West averaged 19.8 ppg on that .325 shooting in that Finals, while Chamberlain was third on his team, at 19.2 ppg on a .600 FG% (as well as grabbing 23 rpg, and completely shutting down the lane.) Oh, and in the clinching game five win, Wilt scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 8 blocks, and 29 rebounds. West scored 23 points on 10-28 from the floor.

Let's ignore the 3 playoff games Wilt had under 10 points then :roll:

But 'thanks to Wilt' for that post-season run right

[ClipperRevival]

1988
RS: 35/6/6 54%
Pistons: 27/9/5 49%

1989
RS: 33/8/8 54%
Pistons: 30/6/7 46%

1990
RS: 34/7/6 53%
Pistons: 32/7/6 47%

1991
RS: 32/6/6 54%
Pistons: 30/5/7 54%

Good stuff. Not much of a drop off considering how good the Bad Boys were and how they had a single minded focus on stopping #23.

[LAZERUSS]

1988
RS: 35/6/6 54%
Pistons: 27/9/5 49%

1989
RS: 33/8/8 54%
Pistons: 30/6/7 46%

1990
RS: 34/7/6 53%
Pistons: 32/7/6 47%

1991
RS: 32/6/6 54%
Pistons: 30/5/7 54%

Thank you.

BTW, the '91 Pistons were already in a state of decline.

Now, he did that in four straight series.

In Wilt's ten seasons prior to his knee injury, he faced Russell and the Celtics, EIGHT times (six times in the second series, and once in his first), and Thurmond twice more (once in the first round, and another in the Finals.)

Again, Kareem didn't face Russell, but he couldn't hit a shot to save his life against Thurmond in his three straight playoff series with Nate.

[LAZERUSS]

Let's ignore the 3 playoff games Wilt had under 10 points then :roll:

But 'thanks to Wilt' for that post-season run right

You mean the Chamberlain that held a PEAK Kareem to .414 shooting in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.

And if points scored were the only factor, then Russell wouldn't have won 11 rings, either.

[KembaWalker]

You mean the Chamberlain that held a PEAK Kareem to .414 shooting in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.

And if points scored were the only factor, then Russell wouldn't have won 11 rings, either.

Difference is no one credits Russell ALONE for winning 11 rings, you're acting like Wilt carried that Lakers team the whole playoff series :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Good stuff. Not much of a drop off considering how good the Bad Boys were and how they had a single minded focus on stopping #23.

Which was what Chamberlain faced EIGHT times in his first ten seasons. Teams that SWARMED him.

How about this from Tommy Heinsohn...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html


In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

[LAZERUSS]

Difference is no one credits Russell ALONE for winning 11 rings, you're acting like Wilt carried that Lakers team the whole playoff series :roll:

I'm pointing out that West won his ONLY ring, in a post-season in which Chamberlain was CLEARLY the Lakers BEST player, and in a Finals in which Wilt won a FMVP by just crushing the Knicks at BOTH ends of the floor. And again, in the WORST post-season of West's career.

And had West showed up in game seven of the '70 Finals, or played at all in the '71 post-season, or contributed anything in the '73 Finals...and he and Wilt might have won three more rings.

[GimmeThat]

of the few things that come to mind

* the all NBA selection per players on this list
* w/l record of playoff games and the inverse effect with point differentials
* finals appearances and its impact on point differentials (the learning curve effect of facing the same opponent)



and if OP was truly interested in digging deeper

* the combining effect of scoring differentials of players from the regular season to the playoff and opponents defensive rating and its impact on winning the game and series.
* what can be the most literate definition of the term 'franchise player'
* the conventional ESPN XX/X/X criteria and the cut off point differential either by amount of players above variable X, league average, or the combined effect w/as variable increases.

[rmt]

How about Baylor shooting 2-14 from the floor (and 1-6 from the line) in a one point loss: or 4-18 from the floor in a six point loss; or 8-22 from the field in a two point game seven loss?

Baylor averaged 18 pts to Wilt's less than 12 and he's 2 years older than Wilt. Why don't you mention Wilt's 2-11 free throws in that one point loss? Or Wilt's 4-13 free throws in the two point game seven loss? Isn't he equally culpable? Even more so since Wilt is the one you're always trumping up as GOAT - not the older Baylor.

[GimmeThat]

I'm pointing out that West won his ONLY ring, in a post-season in which Chamberlain was CLEARLY the Lakers BEST player, and in a Finals in which Wilt won a FMVP by just crushing the Knicks at BOTH ends of the floor. And again, in the WORST post-season of West's career.

And had West showed up in game seven of the '70 Finals, or played at all in the '71 post-season, or contributed anything in the '73 Finals...and he and Wilt might have won three more rings.

you might be able to say that had he cared more about who he was matched up against, he would appear to have showed up more

but had he been more responsible for his teammates, than he couldn't have played the game himself.


when you can't pass it back to perhaps the best match up in the game, how can you still make your teammates better? since he's the one that passed you the ball

[sportjames23]

http://i.imgur.com/NrIOx9G.jpg

Wilt doe :roll:


Dat Michael Jeffrey Jordan doe. :bowdown:

[sportjames23]

Ilt :roll:

Cue the 3,000 word dissertation by Lazeruss blaming everyone and everything under the sun except Dippy for his free-falling RS to PS scoring (not even counting his 18 PPG in the finals).


I see what you did there. :oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

http://i.imgur.com/NrIOx9G.jpg

Wilt doe :roll:

The biggest jump is Hakeem. And he even took it to a higher level in the finals at 27.5 ppg. That's what a truly great player should do, elevate your level of play when it matters most.

[sportjames23]

Damn, Lazeruss getting bodied in this thread. :oldlol:

[Asukal]

ILt..... :facepalm

[Marchesk]

West > Kobe & Lebron, as I suspected.

So Wade, Bird and Kareem are overrated. Sure you guys want to use point differential to determine who's best?

[KembaWalker]

West > Kobe & Lebron, as I suspected.

So Wade, Bird and Kareem are overrated. Sure you guys want to use point differential to determine who's best?

Stop it, no one is using the chart to determine who the GOAT is

-7.6 tho

[AirFederer]

-7.6 :biggums:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/05/26538EE100000578-2980066-image-a-29_1425514526326.jpg:crazysam:

[AirFederer]

llt:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals

[AirFederer]

Ilt in PS in gifs (unseen footage :eek: )

https://media.giphy.com/media/13oaJ7vo4AhvZ6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/6kktybleCBkmA/giphy.gif

[I<3NBA]

lol. i was expecting Lebron to have negative numbers. damn.

[rmt]

lol. i was expecting Lebron to have negative numbers. damn.

His points are inflated with the way teams are choosing to defend him. Never seen a superstar in his prime not being double-teamed as much as Lebron. Teams are choosing to single-cover him - don't know if that's a sign of respect for his passing/team mates or disrespect for his shooting.

Kerr should have had them double-team Lebron the moment Kyrie went down - series would have been much shorter - instead he continued single coverage and allowed Lebron to score/build up unwarranted mystique.

[Young X]

lol. i was expecting Lebron to have negative numbers. damn.Why? He's an excellent playoff performer. His '09, '12 and '14 runs are all phenomenal. He was pretty good in 2013 also.

[sportjames23]

Ilt in PS in gifs (unseen footage :eek: )

https://media.giphy.com/media/13oaJ7vo4AhvZ6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/6kktybleCBkmA/giphy.gif


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Asukal]

Ilt in PS in gifs (unseen footage :eek: )

https://media.giphy.com/media/13oaJ7vo4AhvZ6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/6kktybleCBkmA/giphy.gif

:lol :oldlol: :roll:

[kshutts1]

1988
RS: 35/6/6 54%
Pistons: 27/9/5 49%

1989
RS: 33/8/8 54%
Pistons: 30/6/7 46%

1990
RS: 34/7/6 53%
Pistons: 32/7/6 47%

1991
RS: 32/6/6 54%
Pistons: 30/5/7 54%
So in order of year, Jordan was down..
8ppg, 5%
3 ppg, 8%
2 ppg 6%
2 ppg 0%

For an "average" of being down...
3.75 ppg and 4.75%

3.75 ppg would be second worst on the list. 4.75% FG I dunno, cuz while that's very important and telling, it was not included. But i did the research on just two players... Jordan was down 1%, for his career, from RS to PO. Wilt was down 2%.

So that's cherry-picking AGAINST Jordan (which is rarely done) but it serves the purpose of showcasing that no matter who you are, no matter how good you may be as an individual, a tough matchup matters. And Laz is very good at pointing out that Wilt had a lot of tough matchups.

[AirFederer]

Ilt in RS:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/searcher-one.jpg



Ilt in PO:

http://imgur.com/mlHExDt.jpg

[kshutts1]

OK I have nothing better to do...
FG differential, all numbers taken from BBR, and I do the math in my head. Not posting everything. Looking at career RS vs career POs.

Olajuwon +.016
West -.005
Kobe -.003
Lebron -.023
Duncan -.004
Magic -.014
Bird -.024
MJ -.010
Kareem -.026
Wilt -.018
Russell -.010
Baylor +.008
Shaq -.019
Dirk -.014
Malone -.053 (wow)
Barkley -.028
Wade -.012
Robinson -.039
Pippen -.029
Miller -.022

Added:
Oscar -.025%, and -3.5ppg
Moses - -.008 and +1.8
Doc - -.010 and no change

Moses and Doc both played in the ABA. I didn't look too hard, but I couldn't find just their NBA RS and PO stats, nor did I care to do the math myself.

Interesting stuff. I wish I cared enough to sort in descending order.

[scandisk_]

-7.6

The BIG DIPPER Indeed

[Collie]

-7.6

The BIG DIPPER Indeed

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[ClipperRevival]

So in order of year, Jordan was down..
8ppg, 5%
3 ppg, 8%
2 ppg 6%
2 ppg 0%

For an "average" of being down...
3.75 ppg and 4.75%

3.75 ppg would be second worst on the list. 4.75% FG I dunno, cuz while that's very important and telling, it was not included. But i did the research on just two players... Jordan was down 1%, for his career, from RS to PO. Wilt was down 2%.

So that's cherry-picking AGAINST Jordan (which is rarely done) but it serves the purpose of showcasing that no matter who you are, no matter how good you may be as an individual, a tough matchup matters. And Laz is very good at pointing out that Wilt had a lot of tough matchups.

You do realize the numbers Soubeachtalent gave was MJ's numbers against JUST the Pistons during those years in the playoffs right?

[sportjames23]

-7.6

The BIG DIPPER Indeed


http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ur9l5v.jpg

[Marchesk]

You do realize the numbers Soubeachtalent gave was MJ's numbers against JUST the Pistons during those years in the playoffs right?

But the point was that going up against the Pistons for MJ was like Wilt going up against Russell almost every year. Or alternatively, going up against Thurmond was like MJ going up against Payton.

[aj1987]

Hakeem and Dirk. :applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


2 ATG's who don't get their proper dues (yeah, I'm guilty as well).

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Wilt:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~20 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Wilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5 :roll: :roll:

Only 3 times in 13 PO's. :roll:

[KembaWalker]

But the point was that going up against the Pistons for MJ was like Wilt going up against Russell almost every year. Or alternatively, going up against Thurmond was like MJ going up against Payton.

So is that the reason for such a drop off in PPG?

[kshutts1]

You do realize the numbers Soubeachtalent gave was MJ's numbers against JUST the Pistons during those years in the playoffs right?
Yes.

You do realize that, in my post, I actually said I was somewhat cherry-picking Jordan's stats?
And that, in my post, I actually said that it showed what happens to even one of the greatest when he faces a tough defensive challenge?
And then, as Marchesk pointed out, I likened it to Wilt facing tough defensive competition very very often in the POs.

[kshutts1]

So is that the reason for such a drop off in PPG?
It's a big part of it. But it's not all of the story. It's also important to look at FG%, where Wilt drops off by 2% which, at quick glance, appears to be about standard.

So that would mean that, more than anything, Wilt's ATTEMPTS were limited, whereas someone like MJ, whose % dipped by scoring went up which obviously shows more attempts. As to why, I don't KNOW, but I could speculate.

[LAZERUSS]

So is that the reason for such a drop off in PPG?

In Wilt's "scoring" seasons, from his rookie season thru his 65-66 season, he averaged 39.4 ppg. In those seven seasons, he played in six post-seasons (and missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg.)

In his last seven seasons, he averaged 20.0 ppg in the regular season.

BUT, he only played in 52 of his 160 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons, or less than a THIRD.

BTW, the King of First Round Exits was Hakeem.

Now, had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have been eliminated in his first round EIGHT times, and his scoring numbers would have looked different.

For instance...

'60: 38.7 ppg
'61: 37.0 ppg
'62: 37.0 ppg
'63: Missed the playoffs.
'64: 38.7 ppg
'65: 27.8 ppg
'66: 28.0 ppg

Or about 34-35 ppg.

And again, that does not include his '63 season, in which he averaged 45 ppg in the regular season.

BTW, in that same span, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of his 52 playoff games, and had series of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.5 ppg, and 33.6 ppg.

[riseagainst]

dang.... Ilt is taking less and less W's.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ilt is a new thing now? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KembaWalker]

In Wilt's "scoring" seasons, from his rookie season thru his 65-66 season, he averaged 39.4 ppg. In those seven seasons, he played in six post-seasons (and missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg.)

In his last seven seasons, he averaged 20.0 ppg in the regular season.

BUT, he only played in 52 of his 160 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons, or less than a THIRD.

BTW, the King of First Round Exits was Hakeem.

Now, had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have been eliminated in his first round EIGHT times, and his scoring numbers would have looked different.

For instance...

'60: 38.7 ppg
'61: 37.0 ppg
'62: 37.0 ppg
'63: Missed the playoffs.
'64: 38.7 ppg
'65: 27.8 ppg
'66: 28.0 ppg

Or about 34-35 ppg.

And again, that does not include his '63 season, in which he averaged 45 ppg in the regular season.

BTW, in that same span, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of his 52 playoff games, and had series of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.5 ppg, and 33.6 ppg.

So if Wilt was eliminated in the first round at the beginning of his career his differential would be better?

Hakeem the king of first round exits but he has the same amount of rings?

[Young X]

And in that game seven, Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter (he had five fouls and hid the entire period), and was badly outplayed by Chamberlain, who outscored him, 18-6; outshot him from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounded him, 27-21...all in five minutes less...in that two point loss.

Oh, and Russell apologized some 20 years later for his ridiculous remark (BTW, Russell missed two games in the '58 Finals, and parts of two more, with an injured ankle, and his team lost that series, 4-2.)

Oh, and West? Three years later, West had the worst post-season of his career, shooting .376 overall, and a paltry .325 in the Finals...BUT, won his ONLY ring...thanks to WILT, who dominated in that post-season, particularly in the Finals, en route to a FMVP.That was the last game of Russell's career and he was the player-coach for his team.

Wilt had Baylor, had West averaging 38 a game/winning FMVP, had homecourt advantage, went up against a Russell on his last legs and still didn't win.

Don't you put any criticism on Wilt averaging below 12 PPG? Only shooting 36% from the line in a series that close? This is supposed to be the GOAT, right? He should have higher standards than that.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Big Dipper indeed. Disgusting drop off in production. Loser. Salute to winners like MJ, Hakeem, Dirk, and LeBron for the visible rise in productivity in the more meaningful, pressure packed, difficult part of the season.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Stop snitching.

Dude's a terrible poster... But you're telling me now he's a snitch too? Goddamn :facepalm

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Lol I guess that claim that Hakeem often just "got by" in the regular season is true.

[ClipperRevival]

That was the last game of Russell's career and he was the player-coach for his team.

Wilt had Baylor, had West averaging 38 a game/winning FMVP, had homecourt advantage, went up against a Russell on his last legs and still didn't win.

Don't you put any criticism on Wilt averaging below 12 PPG? Only shooting 36% from the line in a series that close? This is supposed to be the GOAT, right? He should have higher standards than that.

In 1969, Wilt's Lakers had HCA over the Celtics in the finals. And as you said, that was Russell's last season and he was on his last legs. And Wilt STILL couldn't get it done.

I'm sorry but the GOAT doesn't give up opportunities like that. He doesn't disappear in a game 7, say he was injured and decides to sit out part of that game and shoot 4/13 from the FT line in a game they lost by 2 at home.

That's not GOAT stuff. That's choker stuff. And you can't just ignore this stuff when judging GOAT players.

[ClipperRevival]

Lol I guess that claim that Hakeem often just "got by" in the regular season is true.

Hakeem played a pretty long time (18 years) so his last 5 years really dipped his numbers. His ppg for his first 13 years is 24.2 ppg. His last 5 is 12.7 ppg.

So that notion is false. He simply elevated his normal level of play to a higher level as the stakes got higher. 25.9 playoffs and 27.5 finals.

[kshutts1]

In 1969, Wilt's Lakers had HCA over the Celtics in the finals. And as you said, that was Russell's last season and he was on his last legs. And Wilt STILL couldn't get it done.

I'm sorry but the GOAT doesn't give up opportunities like that. He doesn't disappear in a game 7, say he was injured and decides to sit out part of that game and shoot 4/13 from the FT line in a game they lost by 2 at home.

That's not GOAT stuff. That's choker stuff. And you can't just ignore this stuff when judging GOAT players.
Just like the GOAT doesn't quit on his team, right after winning the third title in a row.

[Euroleague]

WOF's (Wilt Chamberlain Only Fans) just might be even more unbearable and insufferable to deal with than the racist NBA only fan/international basketball haters are.

WOF's - a bunch of freaking lunatics.

[Euroleague]

Why is this always ignored? How do people rationalize this?

Perhaps they grasp that 20 SEASONS of play, trumps a single 6 game playoff series................

https://media1.giphy.com/media/PrxsV8CTWBQpa/200.gif

[Euroleague]

-7.6

The BIG DIPPER Indeed


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wilt?s=t

wilt

verb (used without object)
1. to become limp and drooping, as a fading flower; wither.
2. to lose strength, vigor, assurance, etc.: to wilt after a day's hard work.

verb (used with object)
3. to cause to wilt.

noun
4. the act of wilting, or the state of being wilted: a sudden wilt of interest in the discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just saying..........

[I<3NBA]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wilt?s=t

wilt

verb (used without object)
1. to become limp and drooping, as a fading flower; wither.
2. to lose strength, vigor, assurance, etc.: to wilt after a day's hard work.

verb (used with object)
3. to cause to wilt.

noun
4. the act of wilting, or the state of being wilted: a sudden wilt of interest in the discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just saying..........
holy shit :lol :lol

didn't know you can be funny euroleague

[I<3NBA]

His points are inflated with the way teams are choosing to defend him. Never seen a superstar in his prime not being double-teamed as much as Lebron. Teams are choosing to single-cover him - don't know if that's a sign of respect for his passing/team mates or disrespect for his shooting.

Kerr should have had them double-team Lebron the moment Kyrie went down - series would have been much shorter - instead he continued single coverage and allowed Lebron to score/build up unwarranted mystique.
i still can't understand this myth that persists that Lebron is being "single-coveraged" when pretty much every coach has stated that they defend Lebron as a team. watch any replay closely and you will see the entire opposing 5 players on court have all eyes on Lebron when he has the ball and will swarm him the moment he makes his move.

[Marchesk]

parker

noun
1. a particular Euroleague variety of goat

spanoulis

noun
1. an NBA reject

giannis

proper noun
1. the Greek goat

[Euroleague]

parker

noun
1. a particular Euroleague variety of goat

spanoulis

noun
1. an NBA reject

giannis

proper noun
1. the Greek goat

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oEdvaxcFPKdt9V5mM/200.gif

[Euroleague]

i still can't understand this myth that persists that Lebron is being "single-coveraged" when pretty much every coach has stated that they defend Lebron as a team. watch any replay closely and you will see the entire opposing 5 players on court have all eyes on Lebron when he has the ball and will swarm him the moment he makes his move.

A lot of people that say stuff like that never played any kind of organized basketball. They don't understand anything at all about defense, other than 2 players right on top of a guy is a "double team", and anything else is "single coverage".

It probably also comes from if you don't understand even basic basketball, all you get is from what the announcers say on TV. And they tend to refer to it as that - because they always say stuff like a player is only double teamed if a second player runs to him at the ball.

In reality, a team can play a 5 against 1 team schemed defense, without even needing to double team if they want. But people that don't understand anything about basic defense, would call that "single coverage".

There are very few people in this site that can even grasp this, because they have no clue at all about how organized basketball works.

[rmt]

i still can't understand this myth that persists that Lebron is being "single-coveraged" when pretty much every coach has stated that they defend Lebron as a team. watch any replay closely and you will see the entire opposing 5 players on court have all eyes on Lebron when he has the ball and will swarm him the moment he makes his move.

Maybe my eyes are deceiving me when I don't see Lebron double-teamed the way Kobe or Duncan were in their heyday. But somehow I don't think so. It's not like I haven't watched a lot of Lebron in the Finals vs the Spurs. I do acknowledge that they defended him differently in 2013 (when they sagged off him and dared him to shoot) vs 2014 when Leonard played up into him. But GSW did the same thing - single covered with Iggy (which I thought was a mistake after Kyrie went down). The teams try to play team defense all the time. And yes, of course they're watching him because he has the ball in his hands so much but I don't see where they "swarm" him.

I did say that it might be a sign of respect of Lebron's passing, but it definitely ain't 3 defenders draped all over him like Kobe. Of course, Kobe would be cocky/stupid enough to take those shots while Lebron would do the correct pass to an open team mate.