Peak Shaq played awful against quality centers...

[dankok8]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

[Mgamer20o0]

what are the numbers vs yao ming?

[SouBeachTalents]

what are the numbers vs yao ming?

Yao wasn't in the league in 2000

[tpols]

doesn't matter.. his stats against todd mccalough and Jason Collins >

[32MJ32]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

This is your definition of "awful?"

And you conveniently omit he averaged 38 and 17 in the 2000 Finals against Rik Smits and Dale Davis, both of whom were All-Stars.

For the 2001 Finals he averaged 33 and 16 - against Mutombo

Other that that, your point is totally valid

[dankok8]

This is your definition of "awful?"

And you conveniently omit he averaged 38 and 17 in the 2000 Finals against Rik Smits and Dale Davis, both of whom were All-Stars.

For the 2001 Finals he averaged 33 and 16 - against Mutombo

Other that that, your point is totally valid

Ok maybe awful is an exaggeration but subpar...

Rik Smits wasn't an all-star that season and Dale Davis averaged 10/10 and played under 29 minutes a game. Not exactly convincing.

[90sgoat]

I've touched on this before and you're rigth OP.

Shaq's dominance is greatly overrated. Not as an individual player, but as a winning team player. Shaq with a team of Elden Campell, Robert Horry, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel, Rick Fox and Kobe Bryant got SWEPT - read that again S-W-E-P-T against the Utah Jazz with old men Stockton and Malone and little else.

MJ of course took care of those guys quite easily afterwards.

Fact is that Shaq had some big issues, free throw shooting being one, but more commonly having problems in getting good position early in the shot clock. His physical dominance, while definitely the biggest, was not so that he could just bully guys like Mutombo, Ewing or Hakeem.

Who did Shaq say was his most difficult defender in that era? 7-4 dutch center Rik Smits. That's because he was big enough to keep him out. Shaq lacked a plan B if plan A - get very low position - didn't work.

That's why people say Hakeem at prime was a better player than Shaq ever was and I agree, Kareem too and probably Wilt.

Mainly Shaq was a lazy sob and should have worked on his hook shot and free throws instead of bulking up.

[senelcoolidge]

Shaq had the potential to be as great as Wilt or Kareem, but despite being an underachiever he's still considered one of the best centers ever. When you look at his numbers they are disappointing.

[Da_Realist]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

For one thing, I think everyone's numbers dip when you look at how they do against their best competition compared to the rest of the league.

For another, this is case where I would have to see the games instead of just trusting the numbers. There is no way Alonzo Mourning, a souped-up power forward, could do anything with a motivated Shaq.

Shaq's nature, which everyone would call lazy, demands that we look deeper into the numbers. How many of these games required Shaq at his best? Were his teammates feeding off the attention he drew? There are other factors...

Thirdly, Shaq did pretty well against Dikembe a year later in the Finals. A motivated Shaw took the Finals MVP. So that nullifies this 2 game sampling from the regular season a year before. And a younger, more immature Shaq held his own against Hakeem in his prime in the 95 Finals.

Lastly, these are some pretty good numbers. I don't see how he was "awful".

[aj1987]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

Why the **** are you doing just that one season?

Post his numbers against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, against Ben in the '04 Finals, etc..

Dropped 28/12 against the Knicks in '94 (5 games).
Dropped 35/12 against the Knicks in '95 (5 games). Would've higher, if he didn't play poorly (13/7) in the ONLY game Ewing didn't play in.
Dropped 28/10 against the Knicks in '96 (4 games).
26/13 in the only game in '97.

30/13 against D-Rob in '95 and '96 (the seasons he made All-D First team).

I could keep going all day. Shaq did have bad games against good centers, but he routinely DESTROYED them.


****ing Chokerlain stans... Stick to watching grainy clips of your idol choking on Russell's D. Dude would be a nothing more than a role-player in the '90's. A much worse version of D-Rob. Just be glad that he played in an absolutely garbage ass era.

EDIT: Also, the idiots agreeing with OP... :facepalm Kobeturds are literally the worst.

[swagga]

this thread :roll:
awful numbers:roll:

reality check son, everybody plays a bit worse against better competition. Lol awfal.

You tripping son. :biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In a Game 7, 26/12/4 on 54% shooting is now considered 'awful' ... :oldlol:


2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

Now post what he did vs Mutombo (DPOY) in the finals, when games REALLY mattered.

lol @ this 2 game sample, during the regular-season, changing your opinion of Shaq.

[90sgoat]

In a Game 7, 26/12/4 on 54% shooting is now considered 'awful' ... :oldlol:



Now post what he did vs Mutombo (DPOY) in the finals, when games REALLY mattered.

lol @ this 2 game sample, during the regular-season, changing your opinion of Shaq.

To be fair that wasn't peak Mutombo but old man Mutombo.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

To be fair that wasn't peak Mutombo but old man Mutombo.

Neither was 2000 though - and the difference is verz 2001 was a better defender.

[aj1987]

To be fair that wasn't peak Mutombo but old man Mutombo.
Dude won DPOY in 2001, was an All-Star, made the All-NBA second team, and All-Def first team.

[ProfessorMurder]

So putting up slightly worse numbers against HOF competition boggles the OP's mind? It's almost like those opponents were good at basketball or something.


In a Game 7, 26/12/4 on 54% shooting is now considered 'awful' ... :oldlol:

Now post what he did vs Mutombo (DPOY) in the finals, when games REALLY mattered.

He was literally allowed to elbow Mutombo in the grill, at will. I wouldn't exactly call that fair.

[dankok8]

For one thing, I think everyone's numbers dip when you look at how they do against their best competition compared to the rest of the league.

For another, this is case where I would have to see the games instead of just trusting the numbers. There is no way Alonzo Mourning, a souped-up power forward, could do anything with a motivated Shaq.

Shaq's nature, which everyone would call lazy, demands that we look deeper into the numbers. How many of these games required Shaq at his best? Were his teammates feeding off the attention he drew? There are other factors...

Thirdly, Shaq did pretty well against Dikembe a year later in the Finals. A motivated Shaw took the Finals MVP. So that nullifies this 2 game sampling from the regular season a year before. And a younger, more immature Shaq held his own against Hakeem in his prime in the 95 Finals.

Lastly, these are some pretty good numbers. I don't see how he was "awful".

Sure everybody's numbers are expected to dip but he plays nothing near what you would expect. < 25 ppg and < 48% shooting against all HOF centers is very subpar for a GOAT center at his peak.

All those other points you made about Shaq's motivation and his teammates having that extra space because of him are valid. However...

A prime Shaq in 11 regular season games from 1994-2003 averaged just 22.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.2 apg on 49.8 %FG/49.4 %TS against Mutombo. That does count for something.


Why the **** are you doing just that one season?

Post his numbers against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, against Ben in the '04 Finals, etc..

Dropped 28/12 against the Knicks in '94 (5 games).
Dropped 35/12 against the Knicks in '95 (5 games). Would've higher, if he didn't play poorly (13/7) in the ONLY game Ewing didn't play in.
Dropped 28/10 against the Knicks in '96 (4 games).
26/13 in the only game in '97.

30/13 against D-Rob in '95 and '96 (the seasons he made All-D First team).

I could keep going all day. Shaq did have bad games against good centers, but he routinely DESTROYED them.


****ing Chokerlain stans... Stick to watching grainy clips of your idol choking on Russell's D. Dude would be a nothing more than a role-player in the '90's. A much worse version of D-Rob. Just be glad that he played in an absolutely garbage ass era.

EDIT: Also, the idiots agreeing with OP... Kobeturds are literally the worst.

Let's post Shaq's numbers against prime Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing. After 1997 Robinson had a serious injury and Hakeem and Ewing never made any more all-star appearances.

vs. Hakeem 1993-1997 (9 games)

Shaq: 23.2 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 57.5 %FG/56.9 %TS
Hakeem: 26.0 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.6 apg on 46.5 %FG/51.4 %TS

vs. Robinson 1993-1997 (7 games)

Shaq: 25.3 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 1.7 apg on 51.1 %FG/54.1 %TS
Robinson: 29.4 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.6 apg on 48.7 %FG/55.9 %TS

vs. Ewing 1993-1997 (17 games)

Shaq: 28.6 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 2.4 apg on 54.1 %FG/54.9 %TS
Ewing: 26.5 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.2 apg on 45.3 %FG/49.5 %TS

And in one playoff series against Hakeem he was outplayed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sure everybody's numbers are expected to dip but he plays nothing near what you would expect. < 25 ppg and < 48% shooting against all HOF centers is very subpar for a GOAT center at his peak.

All those other points you made about Shaq's motivation and his teammates having that extra space because of him are valid. However...

A prime Shaq in 11 regular season games from 1994-2003 averaged just 22.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.2 apg on 49.8 %FG/49.4 %TS against Mutombo. That does count for something.



Let's post Shaq's numbers against prime Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing. After 1997 Robinson had a serious injury and Hakeem and Ewing never made any more all-star appearances.

vs. Hakeem 1993-1997 (9 games)

Shaq: 23.2 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 57.5 %FG/56.9 %TS
Hakeem: 26.0 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.6 apg on 46.5 %FG/51.4 %TS

vs. Robinson 1993-1997 (7 games)

Shaq: 25.3 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 1.7 apg on 51.1 %FG/54.1 %TS
Robinson: 29.4 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.6 apg on 48.7 %FG/55.9 %TS

vs. Ewing 1993-1997 (17 games)

Shaq: 28.6 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 2.4 apg on 54.1 %FG/54.9 %TS
Ewing: 26.5 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.2 apg on 45.3 %FG/49.5 %TS

And in one playoff series against Hakeem he was outplayed.

No he wasn't. A 3rd year Shaq played Peak Hakeem to a draw.

[90sgoat]

Dude won DPOY in 2001, was an All-Star, made the All-NBA second team, and All-Def first team.

Against horrible competition. We're talking Big Gay Collins in the finals competition.

Mutombo was definitely far from peak at that time.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So putting up slightly worse numbers against HOF competition boggles the OP's mind? It's almost like those opponents were good at basketball or something.



He was literally allowed to elbow Mutombo in the grill, at will. I wouldn't exactly call that fair.

He might be the toughest guy in NBA history to officiate. For his weigh/height, Shaq has always been fast and incredibly difficult to defend. You combine that with his power, and I just don't think refs could officiate him like a normal player. A big dude like that is gonna bring the pain every time, even if its not intended. Mutombo defended Shaq in a low stance, digging deep into him. Anyone over 7 foot and the size of Shaq is going to hit you smack dab in the jaw - and that shouldn't be called (the offensive player should have some space to work with).

Dude got away with a few elbows, but people get carried away with the "fair" talk. Diesel dominated Mt Mutombo legitimately.

[imdaman99]

Those Ewing numbers :roll: Never mind that at that point, Ewing had no knees and was washed up.

[ShawkFactory]

No he wasn't. A 3rd year Shaq played Peak Hakeem to a draw.
No he didn't. It was close but Hakeem was clearly the victor in the matchup.

Statistically you may have a point.

[dankok8]

No he wasn't. A 3rd year Shaq played Peak Hakeem to a draw.

By any measure, Hakeem outplayed Shaquille in this series. You didn't mention that Hakeem's defense pressured Shaq, forced him into traveling five times, and also drew four charges against him over the course of the series. Shaq averaged 5.25 turnovers a game for the series compared to 2.75 for Hakeem.

Hakeem also dominated in the clutch including hitting a game-winning tip in Game 1 in OT. Here is what Shaq himself said.


[QUOTE]
"Right before the 1995 Finals ... I was in my own zone and wasn

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes, he did..

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8882662&postcount=12

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8883446&postcount=31

Hakeem shot 41% when guarded by Shaq.

[aj1987]

Let's post Shaq's numbers against prime Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing. After 1997 Robinson had a serious injury and Hakeem and Ewing never made any more all-star appearances.

vs. Hakeem 1993-1997 (9 games)

Shaq: 23.2 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 57.5 %FG/56.9 %TS
Hakeem: 26.0 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.6 apg on 46.5 %FG/51.4 %TS

vs. Robinson 1993-1997 (7 games)

Shaq: 25.3 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 1.7 apg on 51.1 %FG/54.1 %TS
Robinson: 29.4 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.6 apg on 48.7 %FG/55.9 %TS

vs. Ewing 1993-1997 (17 games)

Shaq: 28.6 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 2.4 apg on 54.1 %FG/54.9 %TS
Ewing: 26.5 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.2 apg on 45.3 %FG/49.5 %TS

And in one playoff series against Hakeem he was outplayed.
You comparing numbers of ATG's to a guy who basically played against them during his rookie and sophomore years? :facepalm

Yeah, no. Shaq actually stepped up when it mattered. Stop cherrypicking years.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

Again, stop cherrypicking years. Context, idiot.

Post his numbers against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, against Ben in the '04 Finals, etc..

Dropped 28/12 against the Knicks in '94 (5 games).
Dropped 35/12 against the Knicks in '95 (5 games). Would've higher, if he didn't play poorly (13/7) in the ONLY game Ewing didn't play in.
Dropped 28/10 against the Knicks in '96 (4 games).
26/13 in the only game in '97.

30/13 against D-Rob in '95 and '96 (the seasons he made All-D First team).

I could keep going all day. Shaq did have bad games against good centers, but he routinely DESTROYED them.


****ing Chokerlain stans... Stick to watching grainy clips of your idol choking on Russell's D. Dude would be a nothing more than a role-player in the '90's. A much worse version of D-Rob. Just be glad that he played in an absolutely garbage ass era.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

He might be the toughest guy in NBA history to officiate. For his weigh/height, Shaq has always been fast and incredibly difficult to defend. You combine that with his power, and I just don't think refs could officiate him like a normal player. A big dude like that is gonna bring the pain every time, even if its not intended. Mutombo defended Shaq in a low stance, digging deep into him. Anyone over 7 foot and the size of Shaq is going to hit you smack dab in the jaw - and that shouldn't be called (the offensive player should have some space to work with).

Dude got away with a few elbows, but people get carried away with the "fair" talk. Diesel dominated Mt Mutombo legitimately.

For the most part, yeah he did just dominate. The only time I saw Shaq get away with a ton was in the '02 finals really. That was pretty egregious.

[aj1987]

Against horrible competition. We're talking Big Gay Collins in the finals competition.

Mutombo was definitely far from peak at that time.
:biggums:

Timmy, D-Rob, KG, Big Ben, etc. were his competition that seasons for DPOY. Again, Mutombo was All-D first team, All-NBA 2nd teams, and made the All-Star team as well.

[plowking]

Great... you picked 2 games in a season. Over his career, his numbers destroy the best centres.

Not only that, he makes the other centre play poorly in comparison. So much for not being a good defender. Dude was one of the greatest defenders ever based on his pure size alone. Never got enough credit. Lazy? Try lugging 320lbs around all game for 40 minutes.

[LAZERUSS]

You comparing numbers of ATG's to a guy who basically played against them during his rookie and sophomore years? :facepalm

Yeah, no. Shaq actually stepped up when it mattered. Stop cherrypicking years.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

Again, stop cherrypicking years. Context, idiot.

Post his numbers against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, against Ben in the '04 Finals, etc..

Dropped 28/12 against the Knicks in '94 (5 games).
Dropped 35/12 against the Knicks in '95 (5 games). Would've higher, if he didn't play poorly (13/7) in the ONLY game Ewing didn't play in.
Dropped 28/10 against the Knicks in '96 (4 games).
26/13 in the only game in '97.

30/13 against D-Rob in '95 and '96 (the seasons he made All-D First team).

I could keep going all day. Shaq did have bad games against good centers, but he routinely DESTROYED them.


****ing Chokerlain stans... Stick to watching grainy clips of your idol choking on Russell's D. Dude would be a nothing more than a role-player in the '90's. A much worse version of D-Rob. Just be glad that he played in an absolutely garbage ass era.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A "scoring" Wilt averaged 33-27 and shot a full 10 percentage points higher than the post-season league eFG% in his 52 playoff games, and 30 of those were against the greatest defensive center in NBA history.

But then, maybe you can find Shaq's FOUR 50+ point playoff games, THREE of which came in "must-win" situations. Or maybe you can find Shaq's must-win Finals game of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting (and in one of the few playoff games in Wilt's career in which he faced a "Todd MacCulloch" equivalent.)

And for those that use Shaq's Finals against a 35 year old Mutombo...Wilt had SEVERAL equivalent series against a PRIME Russell.

Did Shaq outrebound every opposing center he faced in his post-season career? Oh, and how about Shaq getting outrebounded by a 6-7 center?

Oh, and fans forget that a 35 year old Mutombo averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq, as well. In Wilt' entire 29 post-season series, he allowed his opposing starting center to shoot 50+ in THREE of them, and the high was .521 (and that guy was outscored by Wilt, 38.6 ppg to 14.3 ppg.)

[LAZERUSS]

So putting up slightly worse numbers against HOF competition boggles the OP's mind? It's almost like those opponents were good at basketball or something.



He was literally allowed to elbow Mutombo in the grill, at will. I wouldn't exactly call that fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

[aj1987]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A "scoring" Wilt averaged 33-27 and shot a full percentage points higher than the post-season league eFG% in his 52 playoff games, and 30 of those were against the greatest defensive center in NBA history.

But then, maybe you can find Shaq's FOUR 50+ point playoff games, THREE of which came in "must-win" situations. Or maybe you can find Shaq's must-win Finals game of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting (and in one of the few playoff games in Wilt's career in which he faced a "Todd McCullough" equivalent.)

And for those that use Shaq's Finals against a 35 year old Mutombo...Wilt had SEVERAL equivalent series against a PRIME Russell.

Did Shaq outrebound every opposing center he faced in his post-season career? Oh, and how about Shaq getting outrebounded by a 6-7 center?

Oh, and fans forget that a 35 year old Mutombo averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq, as well. In Wilt' entire 29 post-season series, he allowed his opposing starting center to shoot 50+ in THREE of them, and the high was .521 (and that guy was outscored by Wilt, 38.6 ppg to 14.3 ppg.)
Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

Oh, now it's about the FINALS.

Too bad a "scoring" Wilt had to go thru the greatest Dynasty in NBA history, with their SIX to NINE HOFers, EVERY year he played in that span.

Of course, had he had the luxury of facing the likes of the '00 Pacers with a washed up center in his last season, or the hapless '02 Nets, with a center who would have been a backup, at best, in the 60's...

well, he likely would have put huge numbers, as well.

We do know that when he faced the likes of Zelmo Beaty, who was a QUALITY center, he hung a 39-23 .559 seven game series on him.

And again, a "scoring" Wilt was hanging a 30-31 .555 FG% (in a post-season that shot .429) seven game series on RUSSELL. And taking a bottom-feeding 40-40 roster that he inherited at mid-season, to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of their Dynasty.

And one more time...a one-legged Wilt hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) ...in a must win game...on a "MacCulloch" equivalent in game six of the '70 Finals.

[dankok8]

Gentlemen this is not a thread about Wilt!!

It's hilarious how aj1987 accuses me of cherry-picking when I post the complete H2H's between the players in their primes. He then responds by posting specific match-ups! :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Gentlemen this is not a thread about Wilt!!

It's hilarious how aj1987 accuses me of cherry-picking when I post the complete H2H's between the players in their primes. He then responds by posting specific match-ups! :roll:

And he also accused you of being a Wilt fan.

[aj1987]

Oh, now it's about the FINALS.

Too bad a "scoring" Wilt had to go thru the greatest Dynasty in NBA history, with their SIX to NINE HOFers, EVERY year he played in that span.

Of course, had he had the luxury of facing the likes of the '00 Pacers with a washed up center in his last season, or the hapless '02 Nets, with a center who would have been a backup, at best, in the 60's...

well, he likely would have put huge numbers, as well.

We do know that when he faced the likes of Zelmo Beaty, who was a QUALITY center, he hung a 39-23 .559 seven game series on him.

And again, a "scoring" Wilt was hanging a 30-31 .555 FG% (in a post-season that shot .429) seven game series on RUSSELL. And taking a bottom-feeding 40-40 roster that he inherited at mid-season, to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of their Dynasty.

And one more time...a one-legged Wilt hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) ...in a must win game...on a "MacCulloch" equivalent in game six of the '70 Finals.
Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/6 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

@ dankok8, Because most of those game happened when Shaq was a rookie/sophmore. Also, it's not like Shaq's numbers dropped considerable, when playing against those ATG's and DPOY's. Are you trying to imply that 25/12/4 is bad when he's putting them against ATG's/DPOY's?

Heck, rookie Shaq dropped 23/14 on Mutombo, 22/14 against Ewing, 14/15 against Hakeem (on 48% and while taking only 11 shots a game) and held Hakeem to 21/14, and 17/13 agains Robinson (again, only 14 shots and 52%).

[Marchesk]

4/5 in the Finals.

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.

[aj1987]

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

My bad. I never said Shaq was a perfect basketball player or that he didn't have his shortcomings.

[97 bulls]

Ive always believe Shaqs domiance was overrated. Its not a coincidence that his teams started winning when the great centers of the 90s got old and the Bulls got dismantled. Especially when he had far more talent to work with in Orlando with the Magic

[tmacattack33]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

1. I'm a bit confused as to why you are only doing 1999-2000.

Do 1996-2004 or so, and come back to us with the stats.


2. Those stats aren't even bad...25 ppg, 12 rpb, on 47% FG when facing the best players at your position... That's considered bad ????? :biggums:

[KnittingRyu]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

So you are telling me that he played worse against the league's best centers? Shocking. I would say that is a far cry from awful though.

It is also not shocking that he shot worse against Zo and Mutombo than anybody else, because they were elite defensive centers, some of the best of all time.

[ImKobe]

25/12/4 on 48%FG is awful?

I will give you that he was awful by his standards in Game 6 & 7 of the WCF, averaging 18/10 with 3.5 TOs on 46% shooting and 0.5 bpg in 48 mpg vs Kobe averaging 29/7/7 with 2 spg 3.5 bpg with 2.2 TO on 49%FG with 54% from 3

[Elosha]

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.

I agree with you to some extent, you can criticize any all-time player for playoff failures, with the possible exception of Russell. (Although Lazeruss would point out that Wilt did get him once with the 76ers and he went out rather meekly). However, I do think as great as Russell was, he was bailed out by some pretty lucky/skilled teammates along the way. How many game-winners did Sam Jones hit during the Celtics run? I have all the respect in the world for Russell, but I honestly don't believe he would have been nearly as successful had he been on any other team but the Celtics. He was put into the perfect situation for a defensive mind/intangible skills center, and he made the most of it. That's why I'll put him in my top ten, but I honestly believe a number of centers are on par or better than him on an individual level. Can't argue with his huge impact or success though.

[Elosha]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

Seriously, don't you think this is way out of context and far too small of samples to actually matter? He only played Mutumbo three times in 2000, how is that an adequate sampling? Especially when you consider that a mere year later, he ate Mutumbo's soul in five games in the Finals. Which of those comparisons do you think holds more weight, 3 meaningless regular season games or the NBA Finals? As for Olajuwon, again he might not have put up big numbers in 2000, but he destroyed him at other points, including the playoffs while Shaq was a Laker. Which holds more weight? Likewise, Shaq had great success against Sabonis on many occasions; same with Mourning.

You could literally do the same type of microcosmic analysis for any great player and often get such skewed results.

[eliteballer]

When Shaq was a young pup in the 90's he destroyed everybody.

ISHiot thread.

[hitmanyr2k]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

That's nothing compared to what John Salley got. Got a foul called on him for taking a vicious elbow to the head :oldlol: It was one of the most ridiculous fouls I've ever seen.

https://youtu.be/CJarXDGBTrI?t=3m46s

[SHAQisGOAT]

That's awful now? :biggums:

Definitely not as good as hia best numbers but still very good and he was facing tremendous competition... Plus, not that big of a sample and he murked many of those players many times, at some point or another.

[DatAsh]

Sample size is far too small to really say anything meaningful here. I would expand this to include his stats against those centers - and others - over the course of his career.

[Rocketswin2013]

49.1 TS% is awful. Its not as if he's shooting 48% inside the 3pt line and is making up for it by being efficient elsewhere.

Obviously, peak Shaq didn't dominate his toughest competition offensively. But, contrary to a year like '99 or '01, O'Neal played hard on defense in the regular season and regularly decreased the opposing centers offense, significantly. O'Neal was still dominating these matchups.

[plowking]

Sample size is far too small to really say anything meaningful here. I would expand this to include his stats against those centers - and others - over the course of his career.

His numbers against all those centres are fantastic. Not to mention, every centre that played against him, played far below their standards over the course of their careers.

Hakeem: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01
25/12/4 for career

Mourning: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mournal01
30/12/3

Ewing: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01
29/12/3

Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01
26/12/2

Mutombo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mutomdi01&p2=onealsh01
26/13/3

Sabonis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01
28/12/3

Wallace: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=wallabe01
25/10/3


Take a look at all those numbers. All above his career averages. All against the best centres he went up against. If anything, he raised his play against the best. Then he did even better in the finals. Big game player, who outplayed his opponents.

Taking a season and trying to make it look like a constant is literally trying to bait people. Notice another thing about his career numbers against those guys. Absolutely shuts them down far below their averages.

[Rocketswin2013]

His numbers against all those centres are fantastic. Not to mention, every centre that played against him, played far below their standards over the course of their careers.

Hakeem: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01
25/12/4 for career

Mourning: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mournal01
30/12/3

Ewing: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01
29/12/3

Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01
26/12/2

Mutombo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mutomdi01&p2=onealsh01
26/13/3

Sabonis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01
28/12/3

Wallace: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=wallabe01
25/10/3


Take a look at all those numbers. All above his career averages. All against the best centres he went up against. If anything, he raised his play against the best. Then he did even better in the finals. Big game player, who outplayed his opponents.

Taking a season and trying to make it look like a constant is literally trying to bait people. Notice another thing about his career numbers against those guys. Absolutely shuts them down far below their averages.
What toy just posted is a lot more misleading than what the OP did. Averages? Most of those guya(Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing) played significant amounts of games out of prime against him. Averages don't tell a complete story.

And the OP clearly specified a peak Shaq. Who cares about other seasons when that's not what this is about?

[plowking]

What toy just posted is a lot more misleading than what the OP did. Averages? Most of those guya(Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing) played significant amounts of games out of prime against him. Averages don't tell a complete story.

And the OP clearly specified a peak Shaq. Who cares about other seasons when that's not what this is about?

The point is, there could be a given number of circumstances that led to those numbers over a 2 game sample. He could have sat in the 4th, could have been injured, could have been a blowout, could have just come off a massive run of good games, could have been in a slump, etc.

Point is, he dominated all the centres, including the very best over the course of their careers and at their primes.

[dankok8]

A sample of two games can indeed be very misleading and paint the wrong picture but I posted an eighteen game sample in my initial post. 24.7 ppg on <50 %TS for a GOAT center are pretty mediocre numbers.

[Kobe_6/8]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

Who gives a **** how Shaq performed in the regular season. He was always the type of player to save his true effort for the playoffs.

[Hotlantadude81]

To be fair that wasn't peak Mutombo but old man Mutombo.

Deke was almost as good as that season as he had been before from what I remember.

[DatAsh]

A sample of two games can indeed be very misleading and paint the wrong picture but I posted an eighteen game sample in my initial post. 24.7 ppg on <50 %TS for a GOAT center are pretty mediocre numbers.

That's still a really small sample. 18 games is 1/5 of a season. We've seen players go on streaks and slumps for twice that many games. I'm not saying your statement is invalid, as I haven't looked at the full numbers myself, but 18 games just doesn't mean very much to me. I get that your trying to show peak Shaq, but 100+ games would be more convincing.

[90sgoat]

Including Ben Wallace lol, undersized power forward playing center.

[knicksman]

This is why shaq never won until kobe became elite because hes just like bran whos only good against weaker players. Thats why the notion that bran would win more with shaq is laughable at best. Kobe saved shaq alot of times when it matters while both bran and shaq would disappear so i see 1 ring at most.

[aj1987]

This is why shaq never won until kobe became elite because hes just like bran whos only good against weaker players. Thats why the notion that bran would win more with shaq is laughable at best. Kobe saved shaq alot of times when it matters while both bran and shaq would disappear so i see 1 ring at most.
http://i.imgur.com/iQtT9kR.gif