Alex English's 8 year run (1982 - 1989) - 27.3 PPG

[ClipperRevival]

Pretty impressive considering how little he gets mentioned when it comes to all time great scorers. 27.3 PPG over an 8 year stretch where he shot .512% and made 8 straight all star games.

[ProfessorMurder]

Scored the most points in the 80s.

[Thorpesaurous]

To be fair that team played at a crazy pace, but part of the reason they did was because he was such a great motor to run with. And he'd get you 5 and 5 on rebounds and assists too.

[jlip]

Scored the most points in the 80s.

Came in here to say this.

[ClipperRevival]

To be fair that team played at a crazy pace, but part of the reason they did was because he was such a great motor to run with. And he'd get you 5 and 5 on rebounds and assists too.

Good point about pace and that had to add a few points. But still impressive. Anyone who can do that for 8 straight years at the NBA level is pretty darn good.

[GIF REACTION]

This is why 80's and 90's stats are inflated.

No one has heard of this dude.

[HurricaneKid]

To be fair that team played at a crazy pace, but part of the reason they did was because he was such a great motor to run with. And he'd get you 5 and 5 on rebounds and assists too.

They gave up 130.8 point per game in 90/91. They had the worst record in the NBA and their SRS was -10.31. The next worst team in the league was -6.27. They didn't do it because they were so good. They did it because they were bad and wanted to at least be exciting.

Michael Adams avg 26.5ppg on .394 shooting. Orlando Woolridge avg > 25/ the year after he came off the bench for the LAL and avg <10ppg. This squad is why we need to look at per100 avgs rather than per game avgs.

[ISHGoat]

They gave up 130.8 point per game in 90/91. They had the worst record in the NBA and their SRS was -10.31. The next worst team in the league was -6.27. They didn't do it because they were so good. They did it because they were bad and wanted to at least be exciting.

Michael Adams avg 26.5ppg on .394 shooting. Orlando Woolridge avg > 25/ the year after he came off the bench for the LAL and avg <10ppg. This squad is why we need to look at per100 avgs rather than per game avgs.

Sixers need to take notes. If youre going to tank, at least tank putting up 110 ppg, not this bullshit where their scrubs can barely scrape 80 points

[ClipperRevival]

They gave up 130.8 point per game in 90/91. They had the worst record in the NBA and their SRS was -10.31. The next worst team in the league was -6.27. They didn't do it because they were so good. They did it because they were bad and wanted to at least be exciting.

Michael Adams avg 26.5ppg on .394 shooting. Orlando Woolridge avg > 25/ the year after he came off the bench for the LAL and avg <10ppg. This squad is why we need to look at per100 avgs rather than per game avgs.

Yeah, but English's run ended in 1989, you are talking about the 1991 season. I get it, Denver played at a high pace, just run and shoot. But English was efficient during his run as evidenced by his .514 fg% and not inefficient chucker like Adams.

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah, but English's run ended in 1989, you are talking about the 1991 season. I get it, Denver played at a high pace, just run and shoot. But English was efficient during his run as evidenced by his .514 fg% and not inefficient chucker like Adams.

I'm well aware. I was simply adding to an offshoot of the conversation. I actually have an AE throwback.

[Hammertime]

Yeah, but English's run ended in 1989, you are talking about the 1991 season. I get it, Denver played at a high pace, just run and shoot. But English was efficient during his run as evidenced by his .514 fg% and not inefficient chucker like Adams.

It's also worth noting that the Nuggets made the playoffs every single year during the 8-year stretch English was an All-Star. Made conference finals in 1985, too, and made it to the second round a couple of more times.

[ClipperRevival]

It's also worth noting that the Nuggets made the playoffs every single year during the 8-year stretch English was an All-Star. Made conference finals in 1985, too, and made it to the second round a couple of more times.

Great point. His teams weren't high seeds but at least they were competitive during his run, which makes his numbers more impressive than if he had been playing for a perrenial loser putting up empty stats. Denver by 1991 was a 20-62 team.

[QuebecBaller]

This is why 80's and 90's stats are inflated.

No one has heard of this dude.

I think it's time for your nap little kid

[bizil]

What George Gervin represented scoring wise at the SG, I think English did that at the SF. Both were SILKY SMOOTH and had EPIC midrange, slashing, and postup scoring. English's all around game was also underrated as well. In a given season, he could get u 5 dimes or 8 boards a night.

He played in the Golden Era of SF's. U had Bird, Nique, and Bernard King in that era. And Doc was the living legend enjoying his last couple of prime years. Each of them were more high profile than guys like English, Dantley, Aguirre, and Kiki. I think that's why English is underrated among younger or casual fans. BUT IF U KNOW THE GAME WELL, u know English was a great player. Arguably in the top 10 GOAT SF's.

[Gotterdammerung]

I think it's time for your nap little kid
Time to introduce this ignoramus to the Ignore list as well. :oldlol:

[JellyBean]

Pretty impressive considering how little he gets mentioned when it comes to all time great scorers. 27.3 PPG over an 8 year stretch where he shot .512% and made 8 straight all star games.

Thank you! Man, folks are always overlooking Alex English and his ability to score. The dude had a decade long scoring spree. Darn that Holy Trilogy (Magic/Larry/MJ). He scored more points in the 80s than anyone. Glad that people still remember this great player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

True, not Bird, not Jordan, not Moses, not Dantley, not Kareem, not Nique...
Not many know that though.

English wasn't very flashy - on and off the court - and he played in Dever... So, nowadays, he gets overlooked plenty.

He played for those run-n-gun teams, yea, but Alex was a certified baller nonetheless... Dude had a sick close-range game with those leaners/floaters, he was tall, lanky and mobile with long arms and that catapult jumper, one of the greatest scorers of all-time, could pass the rock, rebounded some and even played some off-ball D...
And he led plenty of "successful" teams while doing his thing in the Playoffs.




They gave up 130.8 point per game in 90/91. They had the worst record in the NBA and their SRS was -10.31. The next worst team in the league was -6.27. They didn't do it because they were so good. They did it because they were bad and wanted to at least be exciting.

Michael Adams avg 26.5ppg on .394 shooting. Orlando Woolridge avg > 25/ the year after he came off the bench for the LAL and avg <10ppg. This squad is why we need to look at per100 avgs rather than per game avgs.

That was when English was already gone and those weren't Doug Moe's Nuggets, rather with Paul Westhead at the helm... 1991 Denver was straight up SHITTY, even on offense; one of the worst defensive teams ever, one of the worst teams ever, period.

When Doug was coaching they were an up-tempo team yea, almost always #1 in terms of pace BUT they also played nice D after the mid-80's, and had some pretty good defensive players like Hanzlik, TR Dunn, Fat Lever... They finished as high as 6th in DRtg.

[NugzFan]

This is why 80's and 90's stats are inflated.

No one has heard of this dude.


Your posts say far more about you than it does about English. :oldlol:

[La Frescobaldi]

Your posts say far more about you than it does about English. :oldlol:
Like he wasn't born yet when Jordan retired from Wizards

[Sakkreth]

Best English player ever ?

:coleman:

[Hammertime]

As mentioned, the Nuggets made the Conference Finals in 1985. In 14 games, English averaged 30.2 PPG, 4.5 APG, 6.6 RPG, and 1.2 SPG. He shot 54% from the field and 89% from the line. You know how many players managed to put up 30-4-5 on 50% shooting while playing more than 10 games in the playoffs since then? Three. Dudes named Michael, LeBron, and Hakeem.

[KnittingRyu]

English would get Kobe treatment with the modern expectations of the NBA.

[La Frescobaldi]

Alex was the kevin urant of his day tbh.

[Hey Yo]

Great point. His teams weren't high seeds but at least they were competitive during his run, which makes his numbers more impressive than if he had been playing for a perrenial loser putting up empty stats. Denver by 1991 was a 20-62 team.
They were an 8th seed in 1987 with a 37-45 record and got swept in the 1st round. English avg. 18.7ppg , 4.7trb and 3.3ast in that series. His points and assists were down compared to the reg. season of 25ppg, 4.7trb and 4.7ast.

Plus they were bounced in the first round like 3 other times. I wouldn't say they were that competitive from 82-89.

[SHAQisGOAT]

They were an 8th seed in 1987 with a 37-45 record and got swept in the 1st round. English avg. 18.7ppg , 4.7trb and 3.3ast in that series. His points and assists were down compared to the reg. season of 25ppg, 4.7trb and 4.7ast.

Plus they were bounced in the first round like 3 other times. I wouldn't say they were that competitive from 82-89.

And in 1988 they were a 2nd seed with a 54-28 record, losing 4-2 in the Semifinals to a Dallas team that took the eventual champs(LA) to 7 games, with Alex averaging very similar numbers to his regular-season ones, for the series...
:rolleyes:

They had a down year in 1987 (one of their worst) but they were for the most part a pretty competitive team from 1981-82 until 1988-89, with English as their main-man...
They reached 50+W's twice, they always made it to the post-season, they were 4 times in the Semifinals, and once made it into the Conference Finals losing to the eventual champions, the Lakers... With Alex putting up 30.2/6.6/4.5/1.2/0.4 on .601 TS%, for that post-season run.

[feyki]

Your posts say far more about you than it does about English. :oldlol:

:rockon: :rockon:

Best scorer of 80's with Dantley .

[Hey Yo]

And in 1988 they were a 2nd seed with a 54-28 record, losing 4-2 in the Semifinals to a Dallas team that took the eventual champs(LA) to 7 games, with Alex averaging very similar numbers to his regular-season ones, for the series...
:rolleyes:

They had a down year in 1987 (one of their worst) but they were for the most part a pretty competitive team from 1981-82 until 1988-89, with English as their main-man...
They reached 50+W's twice, they always made it to the post-season, they were 4 times in the Semifinals, and once made it into the Conference Finals losing to the eventual champions, the Lakers... With Alex putting up 30.2/6.6/4.5/1.2/0.4 on .601 TS%, for that post-season run.
Just saying that they weren't as competitive as made out to be in this thread. Their good and bad evens it out to be an avg. competitive team over that span.

That drop in points and assists by English from reg season to playoffs in 87 is pretty significant.......at least it's said to be when done by other players.

[ProfessorMurder]

They were an 8th seed in 1987 with a 37-45 record and got swept in the 1st round. English avg. 18.7ppg , 4.7trb and 3.3ast in that series. His points and assists were down compared to the reg. season of 25ppg, 4.7trb and 4.7ast.

Plus they were bounced in the first round like 3 other times. I wouldn't say they were that competitive from 82-89.
His stats went down while playing the 87 Lakers... isn't that par for the course with any medium caliber team playing against an all time great team?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Just saying that they weren't as competitive as made out to be in this thread. Their good and bad evens it out to be an avg. competitive team over that span.

That drop in points and assists by English from reg season to playoffs in 87 is pretty significant.......at least it's said to be when done by other players.

They weren't a top contender or anything but they certainly were one of the most competitive franchises during the most competitive era ever, even if they played in the weaker Western Conference.
And just before the 1986-87 season, Calvin Natt who was one of their most important players, got injured, pretty much ending his career.

Huh... English averaged 21.5/5.5/3.6 on 50.7/83.2 in 31.9 MPG for his career in the regular-season, and 24.4/5.5/4.3 on 50.3/86.2 in 35.7 MPG for his career in the post-season...
Most players' stats decrease in the Playoffs, Alex actually maintained or even raised his numbers, even going by per36.

So, you're giving him hell due to him being worse in ONE Playoffs series vs one of the GOAT teams? While being guarded by Worthy and Cooper... With a vastly inferior team...
:confusedshrug: :rolleyes:
And one more thing, next time you check them stats NOTICE the minutes per game, because English's 18.7 PPG, vs the Lakers in that 1987 1st round, came in 25.3 MPG, because the Nuggets kepting getting blown-out, as expected.

[warriorfan]

Just saying that they weren't as competitive as made out to be in this thread. Their good and bad evens it out to be an avg. competitive team over that span.

That drop in points and assists by English from reg season to playoffs in 87 is pretty significant.......at least it's said to be when done by other players.

Worst Post of the Week goes to Hey Yo. Congratulations bud!

[Duffy Pratt]

McAdoo
Maravich
Gervin
Dantley
English
King
Nique, and even Jordan pre-Phil and Pippen

The NBA had a long run of great scorers for bad to mediocre teams. The best teams never had such a completely dominant scorer for that whole time. Instead they had more balance. Jordan's championship teams managed to have a dominant scorer, and maintain something like balance.

I never thought much of Dantley. I would have liked to have seen Gervin or English on good teams. Today, they would just be able to collude their way to a better situation, or maybe they would be content to be Melo.

[KG215]

Alex was the kevin urant of his day tbh.
English was a very good and underrated player, but his best wasn't as good as Durant's best. Durant is on a different level/tier than English as a player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

McAdoo
Maravich
Gervin
Dantley
English
King
Nique, and even Jordan pre-Phil and Pippen

The NBA had a long run of great scorers for bad to mediocre teams. The best teams never had such a completely dominant scorer for that whole time. Instead they had more balance. Jordan's championship teams managed to have a dominant scorer, and maintain something like balance.

I never thought much of Dantley. I would have liked to have seen Gervin or English on good teams. Today, they would just be able to collude their way to a better situation, or maybe they would be content to be Melo.

Nique and Gervin had some team "success" though (but plenty of it due to them), even English...

-Wilkins was the centerpiece for various 50W's teams, and almost made the Conference Finals once in one of the most stacked Conferences ever.

-Iceman was the main-man for a 50W team more than twice, Spurs made the Conference Finals three times or so, with him... And in 1979 they were very close from getting to the Finals.

-English lead some pretty competitive squads... In 1985, for example, they won 52 games and got to the WCF, then losing to the eventual champs.

The rest, yea, I agree with...

-Peak King made a little bit of damage with the Knicks but then quickly got injured.

-McAdoo was wrecking shit up in the mid-70's, and even had some nice teammates but everything fell apart for most of them and consequently the team... Bob - not close to his best level - still got to win some titles with the Lakers though, as a nice contributor.

-Dantley's Jazz had a couple of nice Playoffs runs and that's it... But he was mostly a poor teammate on and off the court, and didn't give two ****s about defense.
Then, with Detroit, just when he was changing, they almost won a title (refs screwed them), and in the following year, Isiah and the Pistons did him dirty, with him missing the chance to be a champ.

-Pistol Pete was drafted to a team that didn't fit his style, with plenty of veterans that didn't like flashy ball or seeing a white boy getting paid like that. Maravich overdid it a lot and many time played for the fans more than anything else though.
When he was at his best, he was playing for a team built around him but it was maybe the worst supporting cast out of any superstars at that level, ever.
When he was changing and the team was getting better, he got injured never being the same again.
As a shell, he even got to play for the conteding Celtics with rookie Bird... Pete then came very prepared for his 2nd season there, 1980-81, but big beef with coach Fitch made him retire, and Boston won the title that year.

[ClipperRevival]

McAdoo
Maravich
Gervin
Dantley
English
King
Nique, and even Jordan pre-Phil and Pippen

The NBA had a long run of great scorers for bad to mediocre teams. The best teams never had such a completely dominant scorer for that whole time. Instead they had more balance. Jordan's championship teams managed to have a dominant scorer, and maintain something like balance.

I never thought much of Dantley. I would have liked to have seen Gervin or English on good teams. Today, they would just be able to collude their way to a better situation, or maybe they would be content to be Melo.

Yup. Just goes to show that to win, even your superstar needs to play within a system and team concept and not just go off on his own. MJ, Kobe, and Wilt (to name a few) all had their best scoring seasons on somewhat bad teams. They were sort of given the green light to go get theirs given how weak their rosters were but when they won, they reigned back their scoring.

MJ is the exception. He was still a dominant scorer (not giving you 37 or 35 but still leading the league in scoring) and was still able to win.

[ClipperRevival]

This is why I am always weary of guys who put up great numbers on bad teams. A lot of guys can do that. Not play to win but play with unusually high usage which isn't conducive to winning and inflate your stats.

There is a right way and wrong way to play the game. When you put up numbers the right way and win and can elevate your teammates' level of play, that's when you have a true superstar.

[ClipperRevival]

Nique and Gervin had some team "success" though (but plenty of it due to them), even English...

-Wilkins was the centerpiece for various 50W's teams, and almost made the Conference Finals once in one of the most stacked Conferences ever.

-Iceman was the main-man for a 50W team more than twice, Spurs made the Conference Finals three times or so, with him... And in 1979 they were very close from getting to the Finals.

-English lead some pretty competitive squads... In 1985, for example, they won 52 games and got to the WCF, then losing to the eventual champs.

The rest, yea, I agree with...

-Peak King made a little bit of damage with the Knicks but then quickly got injured.

-McAdoo was wrecking shit up in the mid-70's, and even had some nice teammates but everything fell apart for most of them and consequently the team... Bob - not close to his best level - still got to win some titles with the Lakers though, as a nice contributor.

-Dantley's Jazz had a couple of nice Playoffs runs and that's it... But he was mostly a poor teammate on and off the court, and didn't give two ****s about defense.
Then, with Detroit, just when he was changing, they almost won a title (refs screwed them), and in the following year, Isiah and the Pistons did him dirty, with him missing the chance to be a champ.

-Pistol Pete was drafted to a team that didn't fit his style, with plenty of veterans that didn't like flashy ball or seeing a white boy getting paid like that. Maravich overdid it a lot and many time played for the fans more than anything else though.
When he was at his best, he was playing for a team built around him but it was maybe the worst supporting cast out of any superstars at that level, ever.
When he was changing and the team was getting better, he got injured never being the same again.
As a shell, he even got to play for the conteding Celtics with rookie Bird... Pete then came very prepared for his 2nd season there, 1980-81, but big beef with coach Fitch made him retire, and Boston won the title that year.

Yeah, but there's a big difference between a 50 win team that gets bounced in the 2nd round every year and an elite team that competes for chamionhsips. You can win some games with a black hole type scorer assuming you have some good pieces on the team but I don't think you can ever win a title with a dominant scorer who doesn't give you much else as your best player. It's just not optimal basketball when one guy is left alone in iso as your bread and butter. It's too inefficient and teams and can stop that pretty easily. Even if your star has a great night, it might come at the expense of offensive flow.

That's why guys like MJ, Wilt, Kobe, Bron and Wade didn't win titles when they achieved career highs in scoring. They had to reign it back and find the right balance betwen getting theirs and involving teammates to win.

[La Frescobaldi]

English was a very good and underrated player, but his best wasn't as good as Durant's best. Durant is on a different level/tier than English as a player.
not really. Durant is horrifically overrated.

[warriorfan]

Durant has the tools to be an ATG but he has a beta mentality that will always hold him back.

[Young X]

Yeah, but there's a big difference between a 50 win team that gets bounced in the 2nd round every year and an elite team that competes for chamionhsips. You can win some games with a black hole type scorer assuming you have some good pieces on the team but I don't think you can ever win a title with a dominant scorer who doesn't give you much else as your best player. It's just not optimal basketball when one guy is left alone in iso as your bread and butter. It's too inefficient and teams and can stop that pretty easily. Even if your star has a great night, it might come at the expense of offensive flow.

That's why guys like MJ, Wilt, Kobe, Bron and Wade didn't win titles when they achieved career highs in scoring. They had to reign it back and find the right balance betwen getting theirs and involving teammates to win.You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Those guys didn't win at those times because they didn't have teammates that could be relied on to be productive. That's why they had to achieve those numbers, to keep their teams competitive.

If Wade would've held his scoring back in order to focus more on involving Michael Beasley and Mario Chalmers he would've missed the playoffs.

[aj1987]

not really. Durant is horrifically overrated.
https://youtu.be/1Dif0Slv5a8?t=47s

KD is EASILY a couple of tiers above English.

There really needs to be a separate section for you old farts.

[Duffy Pratt]

Yeah, but there's a big difference between a 50 win team that gets bounced in the 2nd round every year and an elite team that competes for chamionhsips. You can win some games with a black hole type scorer assuming you have some good pieces on the team but I don't think you can ever win a title with a dominant scorer who doesn't give you much else as your best player. It's just not optimal basketball when one guy is left alone in iso as your bread and butter. It's too inefficient and teams and can stop that pretty easily. Even if your star has a great night, it might come at the expense of offensive flow.

That's why guys like MJ, Wilt, Kobe, Bron and Wade didn't win titles when they achieved career highs in scoring. They had to reign it back and find the right balance betwen getting theirs and involving teammates to win.

I pretty much agree with you. That's why I said that I would have liked to see English or Gervin with better teams. I never had the feeling with Nique that his style would fit in easily with other players, at least not as easily as Gervin or English might have. And with King, who knows if there had not been the injury?

[KG215]

not really. Durant is horrifically overrated.
:oldlol:

Not really. I mean yeah, I guess he is if you're already claiming he's top 10 or even top 25 all-time, but no one that can be taken seriously says that. You've just got some weird agenda against Durant and have for a long time. You don't really base any of your negative views of Durant on anything other than with a negatively biased eye; which is fine because there's not rigid set of rules that say we have to judge players one specific way, but you do tend to take it to the extreme when knocking/disregarding Durant's game and impact.

You just take is so far to make it obvious you don't like Durant....at all. The majority of the time you post something about him you use the immature 8th grade joke by spelling his name "Urant" and now you're calling him "horrifically overrated".

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/NtLU8z.gif


That's ugly.. His touch is a 1 out of 10 compared to Alex English or Bob McAdoo.

Lebron has horrible midrange efficiency for his career - this kind of mechanical, stone-hands touch wasn't good enough to be a 25+ ppg scorer in the 80's or 90's, when the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to crowd the paint and force mid-range pull-ups rather than let ballhandlers get all the way to the hole.. Virtually all 25+ ppg scorers had elite midrange touch back then:


Leading Scorers in 1986:

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


In addition to crowded lanes forcing more midrange, the lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation, all areas he's average to bad in.
.

[StephHamann]

Kevin Durant is this generation's Alex English.

Only reason he won MVP is because the league is watered down.

[aj1987]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/NtLU8z.gif


That's ugly.. His touch is a 1 out of 10 compared to Alex English or Bob McAdoo.

Lebron has horrible midrange efficiency for his career - this kind of mechanical, stone-hands touch wasn't good enough to be a 25+ ppg scorer in the 80's or 90's, when the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to crowd the paint and force mid-range pull-ups rather than let ballhandlers getg all the way to the hole.. Virtually all 25+ ppg scorers had elite midrange touch back then:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg]Vandeweghe[/url] 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


With less than half the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane, Lebron would be forced to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots in previous eras, like all aggressive scorers back then.. The lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation, all areas he's average to bad in.

Sure, he wouldn't be able to score 30 PPG. He'd probably average something like 25 PPG 9 RPG 12 APG along with DPOY defense. He'd institute an offense featuring 3 pointers. Teams just would't be ready for that shit. Since you always babble about how all the defenders end up having a tea party in the paint, leaving the perimeter open, he'd just dump it to WIDE open shooters. Also, considering the fact that more physicality was allowed, LeBron would basically be MJ on steroids on the defensive end.

LeBron would basically be averaging a 20+ point triple double with DPOY defense. In short, he's be Magic with DPOY defense.

[GreatHILL]

Alex English was the shit all thise trolls need to chill

[3ball]

He'd institute an offense featuring 3 pointers. Teams just would't be ready for that shit.


The personnel didn't exist for him to have the same 3-point shooting teammates he enjoys now..

In the 80's, teams attempted 2 three-pointers per game, compared to 22 today... He can't magically turn everyone into 3-point shooters - that's a dumb argument.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif


Since you always babble about how all the defenders end up having a tea party in the paint, leaving the perimeter open, he'd just dump it to WIDE open shooters.



Again, he wouldn't have 3-point shooting teammates, so there's no one to kick it out to.

Furthermore, Lebron wouldn't be getting in the lane as much - the congested paints (shown above) prevented ballhandlers from even considering penetration - midrange pull-ups were standard and making them at a great clip was mandatory top high scorers.

[aj1987]

The personnel didn't exist for him to have the same 3-point shooting teammates he enjoys now..

In the 80's, teams attempted 2 three-pointers per game, compared to 22 today... He can't magically turn everyone into 3-point shooters - that's a dumb argument.

Again, he wouldn't have 3-point shooting teammates, so there's no one to kick it out to.

Furthermore, Lebron wouldn't be getting in the lane as much - the congested paints (shown above) prevented ballhandlers from even considering penetration - midrange pull-ups were standard and making them at a great clip was mandatory top high scorers.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

As you can't magically transport LeBron to the '80's and expect his game to be the same, you ****ing idiot.

As I said, a near 20pt triple double with DPOY defense. Magic with DPOY defense.

[3ball]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

As you can't magically transport LeBron to the '80's and expect his game to be the same, you ****ing idiot.


If we put current Lebron as he is today in the 80's, the lack of 3-point shooting teammates would hurt his offense in more ways than one:

In addition to creating congested paints that force mid-range pull-ups, the lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick.. He simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in.
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He'd probably average something like 25 PPG 9 RPG 12 APG along with DPOY defense.

LeBron would basically be averaging a 20+ point triple double with DPOY defense. In short, he's be Magic with DPOY defense.

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png

[aj1987]

If we put current Lebron as he is today in the 80's, his lack of midrange shooting touch or repertoire would prevent him from being a top scorer.

As previously, stated, the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to crowd the paint and force mid-range pull-ups rather than let ballhandlers get all the way to the hole.. Virtually all 25+ ppg scorers had elite midrange touch back then.

The lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation, all areas he's average to bad in.
LeBron would turn his teammates into 3pt shooters. He almost always increases his teammates' 3pt and fg %'s. There you go. Yeah, he wouldn't score 30PPG, which he doesn't do today either, but he'd average a 20+ point triple double with DPOY defense. MJ on steroids on the the defensive end.


http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/QbadP.png

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png
Yet, your dumbass had no qualms with 3ball saying that LeBron wouldn't be a good scorer in the '80's. :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

LeBron would turn his teammates into 3pt shooters. He almost always increases his teammates' 3pt and fg %'s. There you go. Yeah, he wouldn't score 30PPG, which he doesn't do today either, but he'd average a 20+ point triple double with DPOY defense. MJ on steroids on the the defensive end.


Yet, your dumbass had no qualms with 3ball saying that LeBron wouldn't be a good scorer in the '80's. :applause:

james would be an atg in any era.

[3ball]

LeBron would turn his teammates into 3pt shooters. He almost always increases his teammates' 3pt and fg %'s.


He barely increases their attempts at all... There is no way he takes his 80's team from 2 three-point attempts per game to 22 attempts like today's game.. Therefore he wouldn't have anyone to kick the ball to for drive-and-kicks.. Without drive-and-kick, he would need to rely on post, midrange and isolations like everyone else, which are his low efficiency areas.

[Thesmallmamba]

This is why I can't respect 80's scorers

If scrubs like English were averaging 27, then Jordan's 33-35 ppg in the 80's means nothing


Just like how I can't respect Wilts 22 rbs when Elgin Baylor was getting like 18-20rpg

[3ball]

james would be an atg in any era.


If we put current Lebron as he is today in the 80's, the lack of 3-point shooting teammates would hurt his offense in more ways than one.

In addition to creating congested paints that force mid-range pull-ups, the lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick.. He simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in.

[La Frescobaldi]

https://youtu.be/1Dif0Slv5a8?t=47s

KD is EASILY a couple of tiers above English.

There really needs to be a separate section for you old farts.

lol both these guys English and Durant, are in the second tier already.

Neither one of them is close to first tier and never will be.

I may well be a old fart but quite clearly all these Durant defenders didn't watch The Greatest Denver Nugget on the court nor on tv. Never saw him. It's the very same guys that think Moses Malone wasn't all that good

[aj1987]

james would be an atg in any era.
What's your beef with KD though? Almost 7 feet long, has the handles of a SG, GOAT level shooter, wingspan greater than most C's etc.. Dude had an ATG level season in '14. How is he overrated? It's not like people are putting him in even their top 50, outside of 2-3 trolls.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yet, your dumbass had no qualms with 3ball saying that LeBron wouldn't be a good scorer in the '80's. :applause:

Don't need to get all salty...

What you've implied was much worse though... Plus. I've went at it with 3ball before in other threads.
And like Frescobaldi said, LeBron would've been an ATG in any era.



This is why I can't respect 80's scorers

If scrubs like English were averaging 27, then Jordan's 33-35 ppg in the 80's means nothing


Just like how I can't respect Wilts 22 rbs when Elgin Baylor was getting like 18-20rpg

:biggums:

:facepalm

Ignorant af...

[aj1987]

lol both these guys English and Durant, are in the second tier already.

Neither one of them is close to first tier and never will be.

I may well be a old fart but quite clearly all these Durant defenders didn't watch The Greatest Denver Nugget on the court nor on tv. Never saw him. It's the very same guys that think Moses Malone wasn't all that good
I have Moses at ~#12/13.

KD could well end up as the 3rd greatest SF of all time, after LeBron and Bird.


Don't need to get all salty...

What you've implied was much worse though... Plus. I've went at it with 3ball before in other threads.
And like Frescobaldi said, LeBron would've been an ATG in any era.[/B]
Well, saying LeBron couldn't score in the '80's is about as true as LeBron being as good a passer as Magic. That being said, I still stand by the rest. LeBron would be averaging ~25/8/8 on 50% along with DPOY level defense in the '80's.

EDIT: Sorry I called you a dumbass.

[KG215]

lol both these guys English and Durant, are in the second tier already.

Neither one of them is close to first tier and never will be.

I may well be a old fart but quite clearly all these Durant defenders didn't watch The Greatest Denver Nugget on the court nor on tv. Never saw him. It's the very same guys that think Moses Malone wasn't all that good
English is not a second tier all-time great. I agree, Durant isn't on the first tier, but he's at least one tier above English. Put Durant in English's place on the run-and-gun Niggets in the fast paced West of the 80s, and with his 6'10" frame, unlimited shooting range, and superior athleticism (compared to English) and he'd put up a string of 30+ PPG seasons on elite efficiency. I'm guessing the faster pace would also add a rebound or two per game to Durant's averages from this era, and he'd likely be a 6ish APG player, too.

[KG215]

Kevin Durant is this generation's Alex English.

Only reason he won MVP is because the league is watered down.
He won MVP because he averaged insane numbers and carried his team to 59 wins in a historically strong conference despite not having his only other consistent scoring threat teammate for 30 games. And he put up an absurd run without Westbrook that ranks right up there with the best 1-2 month stretch by some of the best to ever play the game.

[LAZERUSS]

Yup. Just goes to show that to win, even your superstar needs to play within a system and team concept and not just go off on his own. MJ, Kobe, and Wilt (to name a few) all had their best scoring seasons on somewhat bad teams. They were sort of given the green light to go get theirs given how weak their rosters were but when they won, they reigned back their scoring.

MJ is the exception. He was still a dominant scorer (not giving you 37 or 35 but still leading the league in scoring) and was still able to win.

Chamberlain still has the highest scoring season on a team with the best record in the league.

In fact, you could make a strong argument that his 65-66 was the GOAT season in NBA history. Not only did he lead the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, but he also led the league in rpg at 24.6, and FG% at .540. In fact, he LED the LEAGUE in ...get this... SIXTEEN on the 27 listed categories. And he was top-5 in FIVE more. Think about that... he was a Top-FIVE player in 21 of the 27 listed categories. Oh, and he was 7th in apg, at 5.2.

And, had categories like TRB%, Offensive Rebs, Defensive Rebs, and Blocked Shots been officially kept, he likely would have led the in those, as well.

But it wasn't just the raw numbers, either. He absolutely CRUSHED his HOF peers that season.

Talk about DOMINATION...how about this...


65-66:

Thurmond vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Nate: 16.1 ppg, 19.7 rpg, 1.1 apg, .382 FG% (3 known games)
Wilt: 28.6 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 4.4 apg (8 known games), .489 FG%

Wilt held an 8-1 scoring margin in their nine H2H's. He had four games of 30+ (30, 33, 38, and 45.) Nate had a high game of 30 points. Chamberlain had games in which he outscored Thurmond by margins of 33-17, 30-10, 38-15, and 45-13.

Chamberlain held a 7-2 rebounding margin in those nine games. Nate's high game was 32, while Wilt had games of 30 and 31. Wilt had rebounding margins of 30-19, 29-10, and 28-7.

Wilt outassisted Nate in Chamberlain's known eight games.

And Chamberlain had shooting games of 13-22, 17-32, and 15-22 against Thurmond. Nate shot 8-17, 6-16, and 7-22 in his three known games.



Bellamy vs Wilt in 11 regular season H2H games:

Bellamy: 25.2 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 4.0 apg, no known FG% games.
Wilt: 33.0 ppg, 19.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, and on a .565 FG%

Wilt held a 9-1-1 scoring margin over Bells. Bellamy's high games were 36, and 39 points. Chamberlain had 7 games of 30+ against Bellamy (Walter only had two against Wilt) and his high games were 35, 37, 38, and 50.

Chamberlain held a 10-1 margin in rebounding, albeit, many were close games. Amazingly, Wilt had two games of only 12 and 13 rebounds. He also had six of 20+ with a high's of 25 and 26. Bellamy's high games were 22 and 24.

Wilt held a 7-4 advantage in assist games, with highs of 10 and 12. Bellamy's high was 7.

Chamberlain had a remarkable FG% against Bellamy in that season. Overall, Wilt shot .540 against the entire NBA, and .565 against Bellamy.



Russell vs. Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 9.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, and on a .301 FG%
Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, and on a .473 FG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all nine games. In fact, he annihilated Russell by margins of 27-6, 32-8, 30-5, 31-11, and 37-14.

Chamberlain outrebounded Russell by a 6-3 margin. Included were margins of 32-22, 30-20, 36-20, 30-10, 40-17, and 42-25.

Russell held a slight edge in apg, with a high game of 9. Wilt's high game was 7.

Russell did an outstanding job of holding Wilt's efficiency down (.473), BUT, Chamberlain did an even better job against Russell (.301.)


Russell vs Wilt in 5 EDF games:

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 5.6 apg, and on a .424 FG%.
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, and on a .509 FG%.

Wilt held a 4-1 margin in scoring; and a 4-1 margin rebounding. Russell held a 3-2 margin in apg. Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor in every game. In the clinching game five loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 46-18, on 19-34 shooting to Russell's 6-11, and outrebounded Russell, 34-31.

And HOFer Willis Reed was a PF alongside Bellamy in 65-66. BUT, in the 64-65 season, covering 12 H2H games, Chamberlain annihilated a full-time center Reed with these numbers...


Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!

And, Wilt vs. LA in 8 H2H games:

29.9 ppg, 22.4 rpg, and on a .476 FG%.

This was Wilt's worst season against the Lakers to date, but he still put up three 40+ games (with a high of 41 points.)

Wilt vs Russell in 7 EDF's games:

30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, and a .555 eFG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games, including margins of 30-15, 34-18, 30-12, 30-12, and 33-11. Chamberlain also held a 5-2 margin in rebounding H2H's in that post-season, including margins of 37-26, and 39-16.

Again...just total domination against four HOF centers.

The reality was...Wilt from his rookie season, thru his 66-67 season just OVERWHELMED his HOF peers.

[La Frescobaldi]

What's your beef with KD though? Almost 7 feet long, has the handles of a SG, GOAT level shooter, wingspan greater than most C's etc.. Dude had an ATG level season in '14. How is he overrated? It's not like people are putting him in even their top 50, outside of 2-3 trolls.

I don't actually have a beef with Durant. He's just overrated, that's all, and pretty bad. I compared him to Alex English and that means he's awfully great player.
At NBA level, his own defense is the weak point of any team he's on, the point of attack for all other teams. Didn't deserve an mvp, as his team clearly proved, and like somebody else on here said he's got a weak mentality.

[aj1987]

I don't actually have a beef with Durant. He's just overrated, that's all, and pretty bad. At NBA level, his own defense is the weak point of any team he's on, the point of attack for all other teams. Didn't deserve an mvp, as his team clearly proved, and like somebody else on here said he's got a weak mentality.
How did he NOT deserve the MVP? 32/7/6 on 64% TS, 59 wins with his #2 out for half the season, a pretty decent defender (since probably '13), and has improved his passing as well.

What exactly did English do better than KD? He wasn't a better scorer, rebounder, and passer and he played at a higher pace than KD.

It's not even a debate at this point. KD is set to be on the level of players like LeBron and Bird.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Time to introduce this ignoramus to the Ignore list as well. :oldlol:

:lol :lol Living rent free

[KG215]

At NBA level, his own defense is the weak point of any team he's on,, the point of attack for all other teams.
Durant? That couldn't be any further from the truth. By the eye test and virtually any and every defensive metric he's a + impact defender. Again, you're either not watching enough OKC games or at the very least not looking at the numbers, but there's nothing that even remotely suggests Durant is the weak point defensively of this or any other team he'd be on in the NBA. There's a lot of far weaker defenders in the NBA right now than Durant, even at his own position.

He's also very rarely the "point of attack" for his team. I'm not sure how you quantify something like that. Like every other team and every other matchup, the opposing team takes the matchups and attack the ones that suit/fit their personnel the best, and Durant is not the most oft attacked OKC player. Of course, and again, that's be something that's hard to quantify during Durant's last 5+ seasons because with Brooks as the head coach the Thunder switched screens about as much as any team in the league.


Didn't deserve an mvp, as his team clearly proved, and like somebody else on here said he's got a weak mentality.
Again, are you talking about Durant? How did he not deserve his MVP?

[aj1987]

Durant? That couldn't be any further from the truth. By the eye test and virtually any and every defensive metric he's a + impact defender.
Durant:

Overall - 0.78 ppp (34.3 FG%)
Isolation - 0.48 ppp (20.9 FG%)
Spot-up - 0.85 ppp (32.1 FG%)
P&R Ball Handler - 0.54 ppp (33.3 FG%)
Post Up - 0.73 ppp (37.5 FG%)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Comparing Durant to English...

Rebounding and passing are pretty much a wash.

English was a better fastbreak player, Kevin's a better ball-handler.

In terms of defense, I'd say Durant's above but not a big edge anyways.

Both can finish extremely well inside.
Alex had a better post-game and also close-range shooting but Durant is a better overall shooter.
KD has the edge in terms of scoring.

They're both very long and good athletes but Durant's taller and more athletic.

All in all, in terms of primes, English was very good and very underrated/overlooked nowadays but KD is just on a higher level, think it's clear to tell...

[aj1987]

Comparing Durant to English...

Rebounding and passing are pretty much a wash.

English was a better fastbreak player, Kevin's a better ball-handler.

In terms of defense, I'd say Durant's above but not a big edge anyways.

Both can finish extremely well inside.
Alex had a better post-game and also close-range shooting but Durant is a better overall shooter.
KD has the edge in terms of scoring.

They're both very long and good athletes but Durant's taller and more athletic.

All in all, in terms of primes, English was very good and very underrated/overlooked nowadays but KD is just on a higher level, think it's clear to tell...
KD's teams played at an average pace of ~104. English's teams played at ~107.

I'd give the rebounding and assisting edge to KD as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

KD's teams played at an average pace of ~104. English's teams played at ~107.

I'd give the rebounding and assisting edge to KD as well.

1st of all, from having watched them both and imo ofc, Durant is not more skilled as a passer than Alex English was, he's a better ball-handler like I've said but Alex was a better fastbreak player.
Rebounding is more subjective but English seemed more prone to it while tougher.

As for the whole pace talk...

Per 100 possessions... English has 5.1 APG for his career with 3.3 TO's, and Durant is at 4.7 and 4.3... Kevin so far has peaked at 7.2/4.8 and Alex's best was 6.3/3.8 or 6.2/3.1.
Obviously that Durant can still improve in that area and more...

Alex's career highs TRB% are above KD's, despite it being in his younger years... English has a career TRB% of 9.0 while Kevin is at 10.3% right now but it tends to decrease as one gets older. Plus, English's ORB% just blow Durant's out of the water... We all know it's harder to get them offensive boards and Alex's career ORB% is 7.4 compared to KD's 2.5; Durant never breaked 4.0 while English reached as high as 10...

[houston]

Durant is nothing but a black Dirk


English like majority those run and gun scorers of the 80's benefited with no defense era.

Grant Hill>>>>English

[LamarMatic]

I understand that there might be a certain level of doubt about the level of play in the 80s from people who are partial to today's game.

However, some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous. You just can't dismiss Alex English as a player and call him a "scrub". No matter what is your opinion on that era , the man was a fantastic scorer. There was little anyone could do about his mid-range game. English had a unique release way above his head from his out-stretched arms and he would constantly put up 20-point games when going at least 50% from the field. Defenders contesting his shot didn't bother him much thanks to his release.

Also.. calling him a good scorer on a bad team is just flat out wrong. That Denver team didn't miss the post-season in his prime. They probably weren't good enough to beat the Lakers without some major breaks (in fact, they had things going against them in 85... lost to LA in the conference finals in a series where Alex English went down, Calvin Natt played on one leg and to which Fat Lever rushed back after having arthroscopic knee surgery) but they were a pretty damn good Western team.

[dhsilv]

1st of all, from having watched them both and imo ofc, Durant is not more skilled as a passer than Alex English was, he's a better ball-handler like I've said but Alex was a better fastbreak player.
Rebounding is more subjective but English seemed more prone to it while tougher.

As for the whole pace talk...

Per 100 possessions... English has 5.1 APG for his career with 3.3 TO's, and Durant is at 4.7 and 4.3... Kevin so far has peaked at 7.2/4.8 and Alex's best was 6.3/3.8 or 6.2/3.1.
Obviously that Durant can still improve in that area and more...

Alex's career highs TRB% are above KD's, despite it being in his younger years... English has a career TRB% of 9.0 while Kevin is at 10.3% right now but it tends to decrease as one gets older. Plus, English's ORB% just blow Durant's out of the water... We all know it's harder to get them offensive boards and Alex's career ORB% is 7.4 compared to KD's 2.5; Durant never breaked 4.0 while English reached as high as 10...

Offensive rebounding is such a coaching decision based stat though. Having guards crash the offensive glass gives you a better chance to get the ball back but also can leave you open for a layup on the other end. Generally the coach makes the call on that to at least some degree.

Just needed to be pointed out as I'm not sure it's a fair stat to compare always.

[KG215]

Durant is nothing but a black Dirk

:oldlol:

You say that like it's an insult.

[houston]

:oldlol:

You say that like it's an insult.


:roll:

nah but that all he is

[SHAQisGOAT]

Offensive rebounding is such a coaching decision based stat though. Having guards crash the offensive glass gives you a better chance to get the ball back but also can leave you open for a layup on the other end. Generally the coach makes the call on that to at least some degree.

Just needed to be pointed out as I'm not sure it's a fair stat to compare always.

That plays a part but it also takes plenty of fundamentals/toughness/athleticism... And they're both forwards.

I wasn't even comparing it to that extent... I've said that rebounding (and passing) was basically a wash.



I understand that there might be a certain level of doubt about the level of play in the 80s from people who are partial to today's game.

However, some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous. You just can't dismiss Alex English as a player and call him a "scrub". No matter what is your opinion on that era , the man was a fantastic scorer. There was little anyone could do about his mid-range game. English had a unique release way above his head from his out-stretched arms and he would constantly put up 20-point games when going at least 50% from the field. Defenders contesting his shot didn't bother him much thanks to his release.

Also.. calling him a good scorer on a bad team is just flat out wrong. That Denver team didn't miss the post-season in his prime. They probably weren't good enough to beat the Lakers without some major breaks (in fact, they had things going against them in 85... lost to LA in the conference finals in a series where Alex English went down, Calvin Natt played on one leg and to which Fat Lever rushed back after having arthroscopic knee surgery) but they were a pretty damn good Western team.

:applause:

You got a youtube channel right? Certainly one of the best...

[bizil]

Comparing Durant to English...

Rebounding and passing are pretty much a wash.

English was a better fastbreak player, Kevin's a better ball-handler.

In terms of defense, I'd say Durant's above but not a big edge anyways.

Both can finish extremely well inside.
Alex had a better post-game and also close-range shooting but Durant is a better overall shooter.
KD has the edge in terms of scoring.

They're both very long and good athletes but Durant's taller and more athletic.

All in all, in terms of primes, English was very good and very underrated/overlooked nowadays but KD is just on a higher level, think it's clear to tell...

Well said! KD is more on the level of guys like Bird, Bron, Baylor, and Doc at the SF. Guys who are at one time or another could be the best perimeter player in the world. All of those guys ALSO revolutionized the SF position. There has NEVER been a pure shooter with KD's blend of size and skill set. English was a beast no doubt! And top 10 GOAT SF caliber legend.

[ClipperRevival]

Laz,

But Wilt lost to Russell's Celtics in the ECF that year, so my theory still holds true. Guys like Wilt, MJ, Kobe, Bron and Wade all put up career high scoring numbers when they played for lesser teams that weren't competing for titles. Once they were with legit contenders, they reigned back their offensive game to play the optimal style of ball needed to win.

Besides MJ, I don't know how many guys led the league in scoring and was "the man" on a championship winning team. There can't be more than a few, if any. MJ won the scoring title every year he won a ring. 6/6.

[ClipperRevival]

The only other guy I can think of that won the scoring title and won a title as "the man" was Shaq in 2000.

And KAJ in 1971.

[Straight_Ballin]

This is why 80's and 90's stats are inflated.

No one has heard of this dude.

Current era is shit in comparison. Stop being so insecure about not being able to witness greatness as it happened.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/30d98b77bba0a7d86e938ce5eb44e499/tumblr_mnmhwsChqh1rst53po6_400.jpg

[LamarMatic]

You got a youtube channel right? Certainly one of the best...

yep. thanks, man. I appreciate it.

[DCL]

true, alex english rarely gets mentioned. young ones are probably scratching their heads and going "alex who?"

this is his like first individual thread since.... a long ass time ago.

people forgot about him because he didn't dunk enough. :lol

[aj1987]

true, alex english rarely gets mentioned. young ones are probably scratching their heads and going "alex who?"

this is his like first individual thread since.... a long ass time ago.

people forgot about him because he didn't dunk enough. :lol
You don't see Nique getting too many threads on here. It's just how it is. Losers don't get a lot of recognition. Don't get me wrong both were amazing players, and whatever the circumstances might be, they are career losers. People don't talk about losers.

[DCL]

You don't see Nique getting too many threads on here. It's just how it is. Losers don't get a lot of recognition. Don't get me wrong both were amazing players, and whatever the circumstances might be, they are career losers. People don't talk about losers.

but i'm pretty sure most young teenagers today who follow basketball should know who nique is.

but to them, he's probably more well-known for the dunk contests against mj than anything else. :oldlol:

but when you hear nique's competitors like magic or barkley speak of his game, it's usually with high regard.

[DCL]

but there are 6-pages on him here already, which suggests he's not really that forgotten yet.

if alex english is reading this thread on insidehoops, he's probably thinking, "damn, about friggin time i get recognized at all."

[ZMonkey11]

Then, with Detroit, just when he was changing, they almost won a title (refs screwed them), and in the following year, Isiah and the Pistons did him dirty, with him missing the chance to be a champ.


Don't try to soil Isiah's name. Dantley wanted the ball more than he was going to get it. Dantley should have figured out he could be a champion if he stayed within the system. He was a selfish prick. Just like he is on every other team he played for. And all of a sudden because one player doesn't want to play in a certain mold, it's the Isiah and the Pistons that did him dirty?

:biggums:

You don't want to play within the system that GETS CHIPS, then GTFO.

Isiah and the Pistons doing him dirty...smh. SMFH.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz,

But Wilt lost to Russell's Celtics in the ECF that year, so my theory still holds true. Guys like Wilt, MJ, Kobe, Bron and Wade all put up career high scoring numbers when they played for lesser teams that weren't competing for titles. Once they were with legit contenders, they reigned back their offensive game to play the optimal style of ball needed to win.

Besides MJ, I don't know how many guys led the league in scoring and was "the man" on a championship winning team. There can't be more than a few, if any. MJ won the scoring title every year he won a ring. 6/6.

Chamberlain's 65-66 season was still amazing, though. Again, he ran away with the scoring title, the rebounding title, and all-in-all, he led the NBA in 16 of the 27 listed statistical categories.

And again, he just DESTROYED Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell in his H2H's. All while leading his Sixers to the best record in the league.

You mentioned that his team lost to Russell's in the EDF's. True, but here are a couple of interesting facts:

During the regular season, the Sixers held a 6-4 W-L edge over the Celtics. However, Chamberlain missed one of those games, and the result was as expected...a Boston blowout win. In that game, Russell played 34 minutes and scored 19 points on 9-11 shooting (.818 from the field.) In their nine other H2H's, and against Wilt, Russell averaged 9.6 ppg on a .301 FG%.

Secondly, in those nine games (and again, the Sixers went 6-3 against Boston in them)...Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .473 from the field.

Back to the EDF's. Boston pounded Philly, 4-1. However, Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the floor...or nearly IDENTICAL to his regular season numbers against Boston. What happened? Wilt's teammates puked all over the floor. they collectively shot .352 from the floor.

Of course, with another season together under their belts, Wilt and his teammates annihilated the NBA (and Boston) the very next season...en route to a dominating world title.

[La Frescobaldi]

Chamberlain's 65-66 season was still amazing, though. Again, he ran away with the scoring title, the rebounding title, and all-in-all, he led the NBA in 16 of the 27 listed statistical categories.

And again, he just DESTROYED Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell in his H2H's. All while leading his Sixers to the best record in the league.

You mentioned that his team lost to Russell's in the EDF's. True, but here are a couple of interesting facts:

During the regular season, the Sixers held a 6-4 W-L edge over the Celtics. However, Chamberlain missed one of those games, and the result was as expected...a Boston blowout win. In that game, Russell played 34 minutes and scored 19 points on 9-11 shooting (.818 from the field.) In their nine other H2H's, and against Wilt, Russell averaged 9.6 ppg on a .301 FG%.

Secondly, in those nine games (and again, the Sixers went 6-3 against Boston in them)...Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .473 from the field.

Back to the EDF's. Boston pounded Philly, 4-1. However, Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the floor...or nearly IDENTICAL to his regular season numbers against Boston. What happened? Wilt's teammates puked all over the floor. they collectively shot .352 from the floor.

Of course, with another season together under their belts, Wilt and his teammates annihilated the NBA (and Boston) the very next season...en route to a dominating world title.
That was purely because of coach Hannum and his triangle offense.

We're talking about the mighty Alex English in here though Laz. Give us some of your amazing facts about the silent guy from Denver

[SHAQisGOAT]

Don't try to soil Isiah's name. Dantley wanted the ball more than he was going to get it. Dantley should have figured out he could be a champion if he stayed within the system. He was a selfish prick. Just like he is on every other team he played for. And all of a sudden because one player doesn't want to play in a certain mold, it's the Isiah and the Pistons that did him dirty?

:biggums:

You don't want to play within the system that GETS CHIPS, then GTFO.

Isiah and the Pistons doing him dirty...smh. SMFH.

I know all of that... And I've even said that AD couldn't care less about defense and was many times a poor teammate, even if he was somewhat changed in those Detroit days, playing more and better D, giving up some of his shots, becoming a better mentor, so on...

Plus, I also know that Dantley was complaining...

But, imo, you just don't trade a guy like that, in that manner, right after a season where they would've most likely been champs if it wasn't for a ref "****ing up"... They were also 30-12 in 1988-89 with Dantley, so it's not like they were stinking it up.
And Isiah's one of my favorite players with his play and toughness, but you know he just wanted his friend Aguirre there instead of Adrian...

Gotta say though, they were better off with Aguirre, at least in that "system"... Their play on the court also showed it.

[LamarMatic]

I know all of that... And I've even said that AD couldn't care less about defense and was many times a poor teammate, even if he was somewhat changed in those Detroit days, playing more and better D, giving up some of his shots, becoming a better mentor, so on...


even while most of that is true..

they did call him The Teacher. John Salley (and someone else who was rather young, can't recall who) was devastated after the trade since he was such a mentor to those younger guys.

so he couldn't have been all that bad.

Aguirre might have been a worse locker room personality in Dallas than Dantley was in Detroit. but just like you said - Isiah simply wanted his buddy and he wasn't someone like Salley for whom Dantley's veteran experience mattered that much.

[ClipperRevival]

Dantley is one of the greatest scorers ever, so he had a high opinion of himself when he went to Detroit, and rightfully so. He wasn't willing to accept a 2nd fiddle role and that was ripping the team apart. Had he been willing to accept his role, I think Detroit would've kept him. But it wasn't happening and it was ripping the team apart. Dantley sort of forced the trade.

If you saw the 30 for 30 documentary on the Bad Boys, you know that Dantley refused to come out late in a game and Daly and Dantley got into a heated argument for like 30 minutes after that game. These are the type of things that destroys team morale and can affect your ability to win.

But it does kind of suck for Dantley to have never won a ring.

[La Frescobaldi]

Dantley is one of the greatest scorers ever, so he had a high opinion of himself when he went to Detroit, and rightfully so. He wasn't willing to accept a 2nd fiddle role and that was ripping the team apart. Had he been willing to accept his role, I think Detroit would've kept him. But it wasn't happening and it was ripping the team apart. Dantley sort of forced the trade.

If you saw the 30 for 30 documentary on the Bad Boys, you know that Dantley refused to come out late in a game and Daly and Dantley got into a heated argument for like 30 minutes after that game. These are the type of things that destroys team morale and can affect your ability to win.

But it does kind of suck for Dantley to have never won a ring.

Ya

Even Elvin Hayes shut up long enough to get a trophy

[West-Side]

This is why 80's and 90's stats are inflated.

No one has heard of this dude.

:roll:

[West-Side]

:bowdown: Bernard King, Alex English and Dantley.
Some of my favorite scorers of all time.

[SHAQisGOAT]

even while most of that is true..

they did call him The Teacher. John Salley (and someone else who was rather young, can't recall who) was devastated after the trade since he was such a mentor to those younger guys.

so he couldn't have been all that bad.

Aguirre might have been a worse locker room personality in Dallas than Dantley was in Detroit. but just like you said - Isiah simply wanted his buddy and he wasn't someone like Salley for whom Dantley's veteran experience mattered that much.

Like I've said, AD changed some of his ways in Detroit, not just on the court but off it as well... Dumars still praises the hell out of him til this day.

And, like I've said, if it wasn't for that awful ref's decision, Pistons most likely win a title with Dantley.
Plus, they weren't terrible or anything close to it in 1988-89 with AD... Their record was 30-12 with him.

Oh, and let's get one thing straight... Prime Dantley was many times a poor teammate (on and off the court) amongst other "things" but his work ethic was great, dude practiced on his craft like a madman since early on... Think it was one of his high-school coaches who said that Adrian once asked him for the gym's keys in order to train... on christmas day.

That's the truth right there but I think Aguirre was a better fit... Mark was a slight better passer, he spread the floor better, was more unselfish, gave more effort on D (comparing when they were both #1 options), he was more willing to sacrifice his play for his team's sake... and, like you've said, he was Isiah's - the team's leader - best buddy.
They were 30-12 with AD but then again, 30-6 with Aguirre...

[bizil]

The 80's was the Golden Era of the SF position. U had HOFers like Doc, Bird, Nique, King, English, Worthy, and Dantley all in that era. But guys like Aguirre and Kiki had HOF kind of peak play. They didn't make the HOF, but at their best, they were HOF kind of players.

All of those guys were alpha dog scorers as well. But most of those great SF's WEREN'T great all around players. Bird was the only one that I would call flat out a great all around player. But u could make a GREAT CASE that English had the next best all around game of the guys I mentioned. Once Doc started declining, I think English has a case in that regard. English's all around game in particular is CRIMINALLY UNDERRATED!!

[La Frescobaldi]

The 80's was the Golden Era of the SF position. U had HOFers like Doc, Bird, Nique, King, English, Worthy, and Dantley all in that era. But guys like Aguirre and Kiki had HOF kind of peak play. They didn't make the HOF, but at their best, they were HOF kind of players.

All of those guys were alpha dog scorers as well. But most of those great SF's WEREN'T great all around players. Bird was the only one that I would call flat out a great all around player. But u could make a GREAT CASE that English had the next best all around game of the guys I mentioned. Once Doc started declining, I think English has a case in that regard. English's all around game in particular is CRIMINALLY UNDERRATED!!

agree with all that bizil, except to me the Doctor was a better and a greater player especially in the '70s but even maybe up to '81. He had a ethereal game in his glory days, very very few came up to that mark. Connie Hawkins for sure.... not too many others.

Also Kiki jacked up his back... he was truly amazing slasher and driver in his first couple of seasons but he was forced into a sort of spot-up style after the injury/also wasn't his knee a severe problem too?

[bizil]

agree with all that bizil, except to me the Doctor was a better and a greater player especially in the '70s but even maybe up to '81. He had a ethereal game in his glory days, very very few came up to that mark. Connie Hawkins for sure.... not too many others.

Also Kiki jacked up his back... he was truly amazing slasher and driver in his first couple of seasons but he was forced into a sort of spot-up style after the injury/also wasn't his knee a severe problem too?

Well said! No doubt Doc was better than English. Peak or better wise, the only SF's I would take over Doc as of now are Bird and Bron. But as Doc declined in the 80's, I think English's all around game was better than Doc's. Connie Hawkins was also another beast at the SF. When u look at the evolution of the freak athletic alpha dog SF, the evolution goes:

Baylor
Hawkins
Doc
Nique
Bron

Of course u have other guys u could throw in there. But when it comes to the freak athletic SF's who were dominant players, those give are the defining ones in my opinion.

I also agree with what u said about Kiki. Melo reminds me the most of Bernard King. But after that, I see a good amount of Kiki in Melo's game. I think he had back and knee injuries that hampered him.

[bizil]

Dantley is one of the greatest scorers ever, so he had a high opinion of himself when he went to Detroit, and rightfully so. He wasn't willing to accept a 2nd fiddle role and that was ripping the team apart. Had he been willing to accept his role, I think Detroit would've kept him. But it wasn't happening and it was ripping the team apart. Dantley sort of forced the trade.

If you saw the 30 for 30 documentary on the Bad Boys, you know that Dantley refused to come out late in a game and Daly and Dantley got into a heated argument for like 30 minutes after that game. These are the type of things that destroys team morale and can affect your ability to win.

But it does kind of suck for Dantley to have never won a ring.

Great point about AD! When u add two rings to his already great HOF resume, I think it cost him three to four slots on the GOAT SF. Instead of being in the 10-12 range, two rings could have got him in the top 7-8 range possibly. Because he had the career scoring numbers to go with it.