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catch24
08-29-2015, 12:00 PM
Throw out team achievements and we just measure PURE, unadulterated impact and ability - who are THE greatest players with sustained excellence?

MJ
Kareem/Shaq
Shaq/Kareem
Magic
Duncan

Those are the greatest 5 primes IMO. You can debate the order, but what I struggle with are the next 5. If we throw out team achievements, there are a few guys outside the proverbial Top 10 who I really think belong on this list...

Dr Hawk
08-29-2015, 12:01 PM
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

jayfan
08-29-2015, 12:02 PM
Is there a difference between prime & peak? Or are they synonyms?



.

LAZERUSS
08-29-2015, 12:03 PM
Throw out team achievements and we just measure PURE, unadulterated impact and ability - who are THE greatest players with sustained excellence?

MJ
Kareem/Shaq
Shaq/Kareem
Magic
Duncan

Those are the greatest 5 primes IMO. You can debate the order, but what I struggle with are the next 5. If we throw out team achievements, there are a few guys outside the proverbial Top 10 who I really think belong on this list...

A prime Kareem, and yet not a prime Wilt.

Typical.

SouBeachTalents
08-29-2015, 12:04 PM
It's almost impossible to narrow down this list to 5. Jordan and Shaq are the only locks imo, after that Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, LeBron etc all have great arguments for top 5 primes

catch24
08-29-2015, 12:04 PM
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

I don't have Wilt in there simply because of his playoff woes. He's a top 10 player, but I can think of 5 more reliable players in their primes.

Legends66NBA7
08-29-2015, 12:08 PM
Can't put Magic there without Bird. Many have said Bird was the better player during their primes. Same goes with Wilt if you have Shaq, just too dominant and hold a lot of records.

Hakeem, Kobe, and LeBron are no doubt up there for me too.

Guys like Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Kevin Garnett, etc... would probably a be fighting for the next bracket.


While it's hard to rank Bill Russell at times, his influence on defense and inthe clutch can't be looked over, probably top 10 too.

LAZERUSS
08-29-2015, 12:08 PM
I don't have Wilt in there simply because of his playoff woes. He's a top 10 player, but I can think of 5 more reliable players in their primes.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A prime Wilt was from '60 thru '68.

All he did was average a 29.3 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shoot .518 (in post-seasons that shot about .430 in that same span)...in his playoff career. Oh, and his Finals winning percentage in that time was 50%, as well (1-2.)

And I won't take the time to produce his opposing centers numbers in that same span, either, but take my word for it...he OVERWHELMED them.

catch24
08-29-2015, 12:09 PM
Is there a difference between prime & peak? Or are they synonyms?

Primes are longer than peaks (2-3 years typically). They're sustained years where said player is playing at their relative best (primes also include peaks).


:roll: :roll: :roll:

A prime Wilt was from '60 thru '68.

All he did was average a 29.3 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shoot .518 (in post-seasons that shot about .430 in that same span)...in his playoff career. Oh, and his Finals winning percentage in that time was 50%, as well (1-2.)

And I won't take the time to produce his opposing centers numbers in that same span, either, but take my word for it...he OVERWHELMED them.

Please don't derail my thread with your incessant spam. I'll agree to disagree, and leave it there.

LAZERUSS
08-29-2015, 12:14 PM
Primes are longer than peaks (2-3 years typically). They're sustained years where said player is playing at their relative best (primes also include peaks).



Please don't derail my thread with your incessant spam. I'll agree to disagree, and leave it there.

I gave you Wilt's PRIME years...'60 thru '68. If you want PEAKS, I'll take his '66 thru '68 seasons, albeit, you could take any three years in that 60-68 span.

And Kareem's PRIME, at it's longest, would have been from '70 thru '81. And IMHO, his peak was from '70 thru '72, or '71 thru '73 (his post-season play in '70 was arguably the best of his career.)

KembaWalker
08-29-2015, 12:15 PM
:roll: :roll: :roll:

A prime Wilt was from '60 thru '68.

All he did was average a 29.3 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shoot .518 (in post-seasons that shot about .430 in that same span)...in his playoff career. Oh, and his Finals winning percentage in that time was 50%, as well (1-2.)

And I won't take the time to produce his opposing centers numbers in that same span, either, but take my word for it...he OVERWHELMED them.

You ever gonna shut up and let someone have their OWN opinion for once :roll:

OP even stated in his own opinion

Dat -7.6 dropoff

LAZERUSS
08-29-2015, 12:18 PM
You ever gonna shut up and let someone have their OWN opinion for once :roll:

OP even stated in his own opinion

Dat -7.6 dropoff

So, if this is ONLY about his opinion, then why even bother bringing it up? We aren't allowed to comment on it?

And again, a PRIME Kareem was not better than a PRIME Wilt. I might concede that a PEAK Kareem was close to a PEAK Wilt, though.

catch24
08-29-2015, 12:19 PM
Good point, legends. I guess you could argue Bird in the Top 5. Same with LeBron probably (heck, Wilt too). Personally my next 5 would be something like this:

Bird/LeBron
LeBron/Bird
Wilt
Hakeem
Kobe

KG and West are right there near Kobe and Hakeem IMHO

ArbitraryWater
08-29-2015, 12:20 PM
Definition seems to be awfully loose here...

edit: Duncan? Sooo, 2001-2007 Duncan over 2009-2014 LeBron? I'd strongly argue against that.. its actually quite surprising how many playoff bumps Timmy had during that time, 2003 is a GOAT level run, but besides that he had trouble with his 4th quarter play and efficiency in the final series' of the season.

Poochymama
08-29-2015, 12:22 PM
Throw out team achievements and we just measure PURE, unadulterated impact and ability - who are THE greatest players with sustained excellence?

MJ
Kareem/Shaq
Shaq/Kareem
Magic
Duncan

Those are the greatest 5 primes IMO. You can debate the order, but what I struggle with are the next 5. If we throw out team achievements, there are a few guys outside the proverbial Top 10 who I really think belong on this list...

Tiers

Jordan/Kareem/Shaq

Lebron/Russell/Hakeem/Bird

Wilt/Magic/Duncan/Kobe

That's 11, but it's hard to leave one out cause they're all so good.

catch24
08-29-2015, 12:23 PM
Definition seems to be awfully loose here...

edit: Duncan? Sooo, 2001-2007 Duncan over 2009-2014 LeBron? I'd strongly argue against that.. its actually quite surprising how many playoff bumps Timmy had during that time, 2003 is a GOAT level run, but besides that he had trouble with his 4th quarter play and efficiency in the final series' of the season.

I won't argue with anyone putting LeBron in the Top 5. Same for Bird.

Who would be your next 5 though?

KembaWalker
08-29-2015, 12:24 PM
So, if this is ONLY about his opinion, then why even bother bringing it up? We aren't allowed to comment on it?

And again, a PRIME Kareem was not better than a PRIME Wilt. I might concede that a PEAK Kareem was close to a PEAK Wilt, though.

You haven't even stated a list, just here to spew that bs Wilt Da Gawd agenda, blah blah

-7.6
2/6

My list OP

MJ
Kareem
Shaq
Magic
Bron

Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Wilt the next 4 in no order

catch24
08-29-2015, 12:27 PM
Tiers

Jordan/Kareem/Shaq

Lebron/Russell/Hakeem/Bird

Wilt/Magic/Duncan/Kobe

That's 11, but it's hard to leave one out cause they're all so good.

I would change the rankings a bit (your first tier is strong as hell), but I love the idea of tiers. Good stuff bro.


You haven't even stated a list, just here to spew that bs Wilt Da Gawd agenda, blah blah

-7.6
2/6

My list OP

MJ
Kareem
Shaq
Magic
Bron

Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, Wilt the next 4 in no order

Nice :cheers:

SamuraiSWISH
08-29-2015, 12:28 PM
That I've seen ...

MJ: 1988 to 1995
Shaq: 1996 to 2002
LeBron: 2009 to 2014
Kobe: 2001 to 2008
Duncan: 1999 to 2007
Barkley: 1989 to 1994
Mailman: 1990 to 1999
KG: 1998 to 2008
Wade: 2006 to 2011
Iverson: 1999 to 2006
KD: 2012 to Current
Pip: 1991 to 1996
Kidd: 1998 to 2003

To name the guys that came to my mind first.

SouBeachTalents
08-29-2015, 12:29 PM
That I've seen ...

MJ: 1988 to 1997
Shaq: 1996 to 2002
LeBron: 2009 to Current
Kobe: 2001 to 2008
Duncan: 1999 to 2007
Barkley: 1989 to 1997
Mailman: 1990 to 1999
KG: 1998 to 2008
Wade: 2006 to 2011
Iverson: 1999 to 2006
KD: 2012 to Current
Pip: 1991 to 1996
Kidd: 1998 to 2003

To name the guys that came to my mind first.

No Dirk?

ArbitraryWater
08-29-2015, 12:32 PM
I won't argue with anyone putting LeBron in the Top 5. Same for Bird.

Who would be your next 5 though?

This is my 'Prime' Breakdown:

Jordan 1987-1997 (9 seasons)
Shaq 1998-2005 (8 seasons)
LeBron 2009-2014 (6 seasons)
Kareem 1971-1980 (10 seasons)
Wilt 1962-1968 (7 seasons)
Duncan 1999-2007 (9 seasons)
Hakeem 1993-1996 (4 seasons)
Dirk 2003-2011 (9 seasons)
Bird 1984-1988 (5 seasons)
Russell 1960-1966 (7 seasons)
Magic 1987-1991 (5 seasons)
Kobe 2001-2010 (9 seasons-2005)
Barkley 1988-1993 (6 seasons)
Wade 2006-2011 (6 seasons-2008)

You could extend Wade by a year, reduce Magic by one, start Barkley a year later...

Not sure where Oscar, West, Moses, Karl Malone, KG, etc. fit in there.. and yes, I have an unpopular opinion on Dirk.

SamuraiSWISH
08-29-2015, 12:35 PM
No Dirk?
No. All those guys are better and weren't one dimensional. All played at least something that resembled defense. I truly believe Dirk is overrated on these boards. KD is the American version of him, mixed with McGrady and is already light years better.

Legends66NBA7
08-29-2015, 12:37 PM
No. All those guys are better and weren't one dimensional. All played at least something that resembled defense. I truly believe Dirk is overrated on these boards. KD is the American version of him, mixed with McGrady and is already light years better.

Where would you rank Hakeem ?

ArbitraryWater
08-29-2015, 12:37 PM
No. All those guys are better and weren't one dimensional. All played at least something that resembled defense. I truly believe Dirk is overrated on these boards. KD is the American version of him, mixed with McGrady and is already light years better.

A day ago you picked him out as one of the 'winners' that raised their game in the pressure packed post-season..

SamuraiSWISH
08-29-2015, 12:39 PM
Where would you rank Hakeem ?
Can't believe I forgot Hakeem, D Rob, and McGrady. Even Penny's short lived prime.

G0ATbe
08-29-2015, 12:43 PM
1. the one that outscored an entire team by himself through 3 quarters






the rest.

Dr Hawk
08-29-2015, 01:09 PM
Top 10:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron
Bird
Duncan
Magic
Kobe

No order, btw

SouBeachTalents
08-29-2015, 01:11 PM
Top 10:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron
Bird
Duncan
Dirk
Kobe

Lol, I'd love to hear your argument for Dirk over Magic

Dr Hawk
08-29-2015, 01:12 PM
Lol, I'd love to hear your argument for Dirk over Magic

I was sure I put him on the list

Marchesk
08-29-2015, 02:16 PM
I don't have Wilt in there simply because of his playoff woes. He's a top 10 player, but I can think of 5 more reliable players in their primes.

Kareem won the same amount of championships during his prime as Wilt did. And that was with Oscar.

Marchesk
08-29-2015, 02:21 PM
ABA Dr J belongs somewhere up there.

4 seasons, 28.7/12.1/4.2 with 2.4 steals and 2 blocks (incredible for a SF) on 50.4%

3 MVPs, 2 championships

http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/Julius_Erving.jpg

Dr Hawk
08-29-2015, 02:27 PM
ABA Dr J belongs somewhere up there.

4 seasons, 28.7/12.1/4.2 with 2.4 steals and 2 blocks (incredible for a SF) on 50.4%

3 MVPs, 2 championships

http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/Julius_Erving.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Marchesk
08-29-2015, 02:31 PM
Wilt's prime included smashing all sorts of records, some of which may never be broken (era, pace, blah blah nobody else did it in the 60s), was the only center ever to lead the league in assists, shot 68% the season he led his team to the most wins ever (until his 72 Lakers), interrupted the Celtics dynasty in a five game beat down, which is the only time a healthy Russell led team lost, and won 3 MVPs.

Wherever Kareem ranks for prime, Wilt is above him. Kareem gets the nod above Wilt all-time on a majority of lists for two reasons:

1. Longevity
2. Magic

jayfan
08-29-2015, 02:57 PM
I keep seeing Duncan listed above Hakeem. This thread isn't about longevity or career accomplishments.


Prime Hakeem > Prime Duncan


Pretty easily, at that.



.

Dr Hawk
08-29-2015, 03:11 PM
I keep seeing Duncan listed above Hakeem. This thread isn't about longevity or career accomplishments.


Prime Hakeem > Prime Duncan


Pretty easily, at that.



.


100% agree

ShawkFactory
08-29-2015, 03:21 PM
I keep seeing Duncan listed above Hakeem. This thread isn't about longevity or career accomplishments.


Prime Hakeem > Prime Duncan


Pretty easily, at that.



.
As much as I love Duncan, this is true. Prime Hakeem was an absolute animal.

Pointguard
08-29-2015, 05:28 PM
Can't put Magic there without Bird. Many have said Bird was the better player during their primes. Same goes with Wilt if you have Shaq, just too dominant and hold a lot of records.

Nobody in their right mind is saying Bird was better than Magic in Magic's prime. Magic beat Bird twice for a ring in Bird's prime. Magic was better in the post season in their primes and career. In the regular season I will say Bird wins out. Depends on what slant you have.

By comparison, Wilt was the best player in either season by a long shot in his peak and prime. Wilt was the most likely player to double the next best player in one or two of the major categories in either season in a game.

MJ
Wilr
Kareem
Oscar 30/10/10 for three years in both seasons or a span of 240 games.
Magic

Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron
Bird
K Malone a freakish 12 year prime where he was consistent throughout.

Mikan because I have no idea of what it was like.

Pointguard
08-29-2015, 05:29 PM
ABA Dr J belongs somewhere up there.

4 seasons, 28.7/12.1/4.2 with 2.4 steals and 2 blocks (incredible for a SF) on 50.4%

3 MVPs, 2 championships

http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/Julius_Erving.jpg
Say Word

bizil
08-29-2015, 05:46 PM
Wilt
MJ
Shaq
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Big O
Lebron
Hakeem

Legends66NBA7
08-29-2015, 05:52 PM
Nobody in their right mind is saying Bird was better than Magic in Magic's prime.

Except people have... like a lot on here. And I'm sure during that time too.

I'm not going to dig up threads and articles saying otherwise right now because I don't have time. If I remember this thread, I'll post the links.

Psileas
08-29-2015, 09:20 PM
I don't have Wilt in there simply because of his playoff woes. He's a top 10 player, but I can think of 5 more reliable players in their primes.

You do realize that Wilt's playoff "woes" still blow away most of the playoff performances of most all-time greats, right? Or that Wilt led the playoffs in pace-adjusted PER almost as many times as Kareem and Jordan, right?
Lazeruss gave you his playoff numbers: 29/27/5 in a 9 year span while playing 60% of his playoff games vs 2 of the very greatest defenders to ever play the game. What have been Shaq's numbers when facing Duncan/Hakeem? What have been Jordan's numbers when facing Dumars/prime Knicks? What have been Kareem's numbers when facing Thurmond/Wilt? And, mind you, none of these players had faced opponents of this defensive level at 60% of their playoff games in their primes.