How good was David Robinson at his best (or prime?)

[catch24]

I started watching basketball (regularly at least) the year he broke his foot, so I never really got to see his prime other than highlights on youtube, and tape of Olajuwon owning his soul. I've read a bit about his early days though - and the common consensus is he's one of the greatest regular season players in history (like, damn near unstoppable).

Before the injuries, and at his best, circa 92-96, where does he rate among Shaq, Ewing and Hakeem at their best?

Some filler:
36/13/6/6 & .538% FG vs Shaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XivZd3mRVw)
34 & 12 on .571% FG vs Shaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFEAVFMExY4)

[LoneyROY7]

Better than Ewing, below Shaq and Hakeem.

Would be FAR AND AWAY the best center in basketball today.

[Noyze]

He was soft.

[GIF REACTION]

Better than Ewing, below Shaq and Hakeem.

Would be FAR AND AWAY the best center in basketball today.
'Scuse me?

[SugarHill]

'Scuse me?
:whatever:

[Rocketswin2013]

Best regular season center of his era.

[HighFlyer23]

Below Duncan

[SugarHill]

http://i.imgur.com/cGsaSCW.gif

most athletic center of all time

that ref was fast too :biggums:

[GIF REACTION]

http://i.imgur.com/cGsaSCW.gif

most athletic center of all time

that ref was fast too :biggums:
Willie Cauley-Stein is close, and would be on par if you gave him steroids like David was using

[thefatmiral]

One of best and best in a few categories. Greatest two way player of all time in prime. Top ten regular season player of all time.

[GIF REACTION]

Also I think that clip is majorly sped up

The 1st defender and Referee are easily keeping up

[SugarHill]

Also I think that clip is majorly sped up

The 1st defender and Referee are easily keeping up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

nah...unless you think the commentary was added post speed-up which is ridiculous

runs like an athletic guard

[T_L_P]

Top five Regular Season player of all time.

Still a great Playoff performer; just not on the level of other great players.

[JellyBean]

He was soft.

:facepalm

[catch24]

One of best and best in a few categories. Greatest two way player of all time in prime. Top ten regular season player of all time.

Not sure I would go that far, but I'd argue his offensive moves were damn near Olajuwon-esque. Like, his fluidity and aesthetics midrange and in were ALL highlight material. Every basketball move he made from those areas looked somewhat pretty. :lol

Shaq from the looks of it had a tough time defending him. Could be that he drew the big fella outta the paint, leaving him out to dry.


Top five Regular Season player of all time.

Still a great Playoff performer; just not on the level of other great players.

That is still remarkably impressive. Just look at most of the Top 50, and this dude comes out Top 5 (regular season I know, but still :eek:)

[DonDadda59]

He was soft.

Sadly, this. That was always the knock on him. He was a lot like Dwight in that respect- absolute freak, top tier athlete (only Robinson was more skilled)... but way too... nice. Just lacked that killer instinct that the truly great ones had.

But as a physical specimen, probably Shaq is the only center above him. Dude scored 71 points at will, just as a f*ck you to Shaq on the last day of the season to win the scoring title. :lol

[GIF REACTION]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

nah...unless you think the commentary was added post speed-up which is ridiculous

runs like an athletic guard
WCS is very comparable

We don't have D-Rob's agility and quickness/speed numbers but we do have WCS and it is ground shatteringly good. Give him steroids and a few years to mature and he'll move as good if not better.

[Mike Armstrong]

Better than Ewing, below Shaq and Hakeem.

Would be FAR AND AWAY the best center in basketball today.
Yarp.

[SugarHill]

Not sure I would go that far, but I'd argue his offensive moves were damn near Olajuwon-esque. Like, his fluidity and aesthetics near midrange and in were all highlights. Every basketball move he made looked somewhat pretty. :lol

Shaq from the looks of it had a tough time defending him. Could be that he drew the big fella outta the paint, leaving him out to dry.



That is still remarkably impressive. Just look at most of the Top 50, and this dude comes out Top 5 (regular season I know, but still :eek:)

Shaq also has two of his most devastating dunks against the man.

Also, he might have a case for top 5 regular season performer but it's not guaranteed or anything.

Jordan
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Magic
Bird
Moses
Kareem
Oscar
LeBron
Durant
Wade
Kobe
T-Mac

there have been some pretty retarded regular seasons. Bold imo are definitely ahead of him

[GIF REACTION]

When WCS gets some muscle on him.... Watch out.

Has GOAT defender potential

This year he will be a 7 foot Faried-Deandre on offense

Expect 10/7/2.5 blocks in 25 minutes or something

[tmacattack33]

Also I think that clip is majorly sped up

The 1st defender and Referee are easily keeping up

That first defender is peak Michael Jeffrey Jordan

[JellyBean]

David was really good. He had the mid range game as well as the traditional post game (back to the basket) game. He could play both ends of the floor. Let's put it this way, when D-Rob was on the floor, you weren't disappointed. He played hard and gave it 100%.

[catch24]

Shaq also has two of his most devastating dunks against the man.

The '96 allstar tomahawk, and the one during the regular-season, where he jammed it in DRob's face...then sorta kicked him outta the way? Those are the ONLY two where "devastation" comes to mind, and with good reason lol

[GIF REACTION]

That first defender is peak Michael Jeffrey Jordan
and he was barely trying

Either that referee is an olympic sprinter or these guys just ain't that quick as the footage seems to suggest

[SugarHill]

The '96 allstar tomahawk, and the one during the regular-season, where he jammed it in DRob's face...then sorta kicked him outta the way? Those are the ONLY two where "devastation" comes to mind, and with good reason lol
yeah. both top 5 Shaq dunks. he killed this man :(

ISB, literally post one WCS full court dunk that is comparable. just one

[GIF REACTION]

There are a few from college I'll find

But Willie hasn't got the strength muscle and power yet. Nor can he use steroids like Robinson. These factors must be taken into account. What we do know is Willie isn't so much a vertical athlete as he is a lateral and running athlete. He has the best 7 footer agility numbers in the game. Just wait til he puts on some muscle.

[LoneyROY7]

ROFL at the gif being "sped up".

The ref is going full speed to keep up with the play; if you look at everyone else in the clip, it's clear it's at regular speed.

[GIF REACTION]

moe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iWdOZeBxvE

The last 3 ones

Dunking really doesn't show his athleticism the best

Watch him on the fastbreak

Also he has the body of a high school/early college Robinson (renowned for his conditioning and physique) so willie has a ways to go to max out his abilities. But he has all the potential, and moves faster than Robinson already. The explosion will come.

[eliteballer]

He was what Dwight would be if he actually had skills.

But he was soft and didn't have a a post game on the level of guys like Hakeem and Shaq, which is why he under performed in the playoffs.

[ProfessorMurder]

I'd rather have Ewing than Robinson... But most would probably rather have Robinson.

[SugarHill]

none of them were impressive from a running standpoint. decent posters

[GIF REACTION]

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/XtMWkztfn5B3ufqNQSIeNB7aNS0=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3569234/Screen_Shot_2015-04-02_at_9.55.10_PM.0.png

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/br19tm9V7X_TBYEgM0cf2aTxiT4=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3569226/Screen_Shot_2015-04-02_at_9.54.09_PM.0.png

[GIF REACTION]

No big man has ever recorded a quicker time in the lane agility drill, which assesses body control and change of direction ability. And with a 147-inch maximum vertical reach, few bigs even come close to Cauley-Stein's length.

But Cauley-Stein athleticism doesn't only shine in his practice shorts. John Calipari has used his bouncy big man as a defensive stopper by having him harass the opponent's best player, regardless of their position. The 21-year-old has the lateral quickness to defend at least three positions in the NBA, though he can defend all five in college while wearing a blindfold. Big men should not be able to stay with NBA-quality guards like Grant.
...

[eliteballer]

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/XtMWkztfn5B3ufqNQSIeNB7aNS0=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3569234/Screen_Shot_2015-04-02_at_9.55.10_PM.0.png

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/br19tm9V7X_TBYEgM0cf2aTxiT4=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3569226/Screen_Shot_2015-04-02_at_9.54.09_PM.0.png

Cauley Stein was older than practically all of those guys at the combine.

[GIF REACTION]

Of course, we don't have D-Rob's numbers here... But you can't tell me that he would do much if any better than WCS. In some areas D-Rob is more athletic, and in others WCS is more athletic. We need to give WCS a few years to gain some strength and size. Current WCS should be compared to early college D-Rob/High school D-Rob.

[GIF REACTION]

Cauley Stein was older than practically all of those guys at the combine.
And he has the body of a 19 year old still

He beat Derrick Rose and Westbrook for heavens sake... In an agility test....

[GIF REACTION]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G456sRy6660

very comparable to current WCS. I'd say David is clearly more explosive, but WCS is faster on the break, and better laterally/quicker

[eliteballer]

If he was that athletic he would be going #1 or #3, not Towns and Okafor.

[GIF REACTION]

If he was that athletic he would be going #1 or #3, not Towns and Okafor.
He has no offensive game

His stock peaked in the NCAA tournament but it dropped when the individual workouts came... I knew this was going to happen... He's a defensive player... Project on the other end. He doesn't have good hands on offense.. Bit stoney/heavy... But he can run like a race horse and legit defend 1-5.

[inclinerator]

heard d rob killed 10 dudes during his time in the navy

[Nastradamus]

A few analytics have him top 5 all time. Not saying I put him there, but the guy was incredibly productive and efficient on both ends of the court and that's what makes him stand out in terms of numbers.

[bobopenguin]

in today's league, he would be the one.

[Harison]

DRob is extremely underrated today. Swap him and Duncan and we would probably talk about DRob as Top10 player All-time, while Duncan wins zero rings and MVPs on his own in the Golden era. I can even bet DRob would win more MVPs than Timmy and like 5x DPOYs, if not more.

The only knock against DRob was offensive production drop in post-season, but fans miss the point DRob was SO GOOD in the regular season, that even after drop he was on par with most All-time greats in post-season anyway. Give him a good team in this weak era with GOAT coach Pop and watch him tear NBA apart :cheers:

[eliteballer]

The only knock against DRob was offensive production drop in post-season, but fans miss the point DRob was SO GOOD in the regular season, that even after drop he was on par with most All-time greats in post-season anyway. G

no.

[LikeMike]

David was a beast that would devour modern day centers.

[warriorfan]

DRob is extremely underrated today. Swap him and Duncan and we would probably talk about DRob as Top10 player All-time, while Duncan wins zero rings and MVPs on his own in the Golden era. I can even bet DRob would win more MVPs than Timmy and like 5x DPOYs, if not more.

The only knock against DRob was offensive production drop in post-season, but fans miss the point DRob was SO GOOD in the regular season, that even after drop he was on par with most All-time greats in post-season anyway. Give him a good team in this weak era with GOAT coach Pop and watch him tear NBA apart :cheers:

Agreed. At age 29 Robinson dropped 25/12/3/1.5/2.6 during the playoffs. This production plus the amazing level of defense he brought is about as good as you are going to get.

[CJ Mustard]

I'd rather have Ewing than Robinson... But most would probably rather have Robinson.
Well, yeah. Considering Robinson is better at... everything.

[rmt]

DRob is extremely underrated today. Swap him and Duncan and we would probably talk about DRob as Top10 player All-time, while Duncan wins zero rings and MVPs on his own in the Golden era. I can even bet DRob would win more MVPs than Timmy and like 5x DPOYs, if not more.

The only knock against DRob was offensive production drop in post-season, but fans miss the point DRob was SO GOOD in the regular season, that even after drop he was on par with most All-time greats in post-season anyway. Give him a good team in this weak era with GOAT coach Pop and watch him tear NBA apart :cheers:

What you fail to take into account is the difference in temperament, intangibles between Duncan and DRob. For DRob, basketball was never the end-all, be-all of his life. He was deeply involved in many things like his faith, charity, music, etc. The intensity and competitiveness that drives Duncan is lacking in DRob. I think Duncan's competitiveness is under-rated - even after so many years, in a MIN game in the middle of winter - he still wants to win. Also, Duncan's more back to the basket game IMO is better suited for playoff success.

[Fire Colangelo]

What you fail to take into account is the difference in temperament, intangibles between Duncan and DRob. For DRob, basketball was never the end-all, be-all of his life. He was deeply involved in many things like his faith, charity, music, etc. The intensity and competitiveness that drives Duncan is lacking in DRob. I think Duncan's competitiveness is under-rated - even after so many years, in a MIN game in the middle of winter - he still wants to win. Also, Duncan's more back to the basket game IMO is better suited for playoff success.

What if Tim Duncan had Robinson's body :bowdown: :bowdown:

[warriorfan]

What you fail to take into account is the difference in temperament, intangibles between Duncan and DRob. For DRob, basketball was never the end-all, be-all of his life. He was deeply involved in many things like his faith, charity, music, etc. The intensity and competitiveness that drives Duncan is lacking in DRob. I think Duncan's competitiveness is under-rated - even after so many years, in a MIN game in the middle of winter - he still wants to win. Also, Duncan's more back to the basket game IMO is better suited for playoff success.

You are failing to take into account the difference of team and coaching that Duncan had compared to David Robinson.

Imagine if Robinson came into the league first year with Greg Popovich and a veteran Hall of Fame Center. Then shorty after gets Manu and Tony Parker to join his team. His career would look a whole lot different.

You can chalk up Duncan's success to having "a will to win" and loving basketball but you are pretty much neglecting all of the circumstances that lead to his success.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You are failing to take into account the difference of team and coaching that Duncan had compared to David Robinson.

Imagine if Robinson came into the league first year with Greg Popovich and a veteran Hall of Fame Center. Then shorty after gets Manu and Tony Parker to join his team. His career would look a whole lot different.

Not only that, but the difference in competition too.

Night in and out, DRob went up against...Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Sabonis, and Kevin Willis.

Duncan has faced his share of HOFers, but in totality, they weren't on the level Robinson went H2H with.

[eliteballer]

Not only that, but the difference in competition too.

Night in and out, DRob went up against...Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Sabonis, and Kevin Willis.

Duncan has faced his share of HOFers, but in totality, they weren't on the level Robinson went H2H with.

:roll: Night in and Night out? Why don't you name the rest of them. You make it sound like every team had an all star center.

Please.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:roll: Night in and Night out? Why don't you name the rest of them. You make it sound like every team had an all star center.

Please.

Ummm, what? Was the center position during the 90s not better than it was during the 00s?

I hope you aren't suggesting otherwise. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

eliteballer is making his way well up shit creek at the moment

[FKAri]

Dem roids

[gcvbcat]

better than abdul, hakeem, shakeel.

[T_L_P]

Not only that, but the difference in competition too.

Night in and out, DRob went up against...Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Sabonis, and Kevin Willis.

Duncan has faced his share of HOFers, but in totality, they weren't on the level Robinson went H2H with.

From 1990-1999, Robinson played in 18 Playoff series. Here are the 'greats' he went up against:

Mutombo (95)

Hakeem (95)

Shaq (99)

Throw in an old, broken down Sabonis in there too (99), and even a peak Elden Cambell (95).

Here's the great PFs Duncan faced from 98-03 alone:

Karl Malone (98)

Kevin Garnett (99, 01)

Dirk (01, 03)

And this isn't even including Rasheed (99), Stat (03), K-Mart (03)

More often than not, Robinson was going up against tomato cans like Tom Chambers, Andrew Lang and Oliver Miller.

Let's not talk about competition here.

[BoutPractice]

At his best, he was the best center in the league facing some of the best competition at center you could have. He's the sort of athletic two way beast and stats darling that would have the analytics crowd talking nonstop about him nowadays. In fact they would probably invent new numbers just to be able to write articles drooling over his performance, particularly defensively. At various stages of his career he was able to average 30 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, 4.5 blocks, 2.5 steals, or make 78% of his free throws (not at the same time but still, to give you an idea how much he had the full package… his MVP year he averaged something like 30, 11, 5, 3 and 2…). I'd be surprised if you could list 15 players better than him in the history of the league.

What he didn't have was that nerd / psycho edge Duncan has. David was competent, professional, reliable more than anything else… a military man. His virtue was hard, steady work for its own sake, because that's what a real man did, and David was a real man - from what I've seen of him I would guess the results probably came second to the process of conducting himself the right way. There wasn't the natural basketball genius, burning desire to prove himself, or single-minded obsession with winning championships you see in some of the other greats. (Although ironically, his military approach to the game did a lot to establish the culture that's led San Antonio to win 5 championships, and he was there for 2 of them… But it took a Duncan to lead that army to victory.)

The closest equivalent today would be Anthony Davis… obviously not quite as strong (or athletic), but probably a bit meaner. We'll see.

[Round Mound]

He would be the best player today. And back then in the 90s he was Top 10.

[GIF REACTION]

He would be the best player today. And back then in the 90s he was Top 10.
Malone and Robinson > chuck

[Round Mound]

Malone and Robinson > chuck

Chuck In The Play-Offs > Malone and Robinson

[rmt]

Not only that, but the difference in competition too.

Night in and out, DRob went up against...Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Sabonis, and Kevin Willis.

Duncan has faced his share of HOFers, but in totality, they weren't on the level Robinson went H2H with.

Kevin Willis - really stretching there, aren't you?

It's not like Duncan didn't go up against K. Malone, Hakeem (at the end of his career), Shaq, KG, Webber, Dirk, Rasheed, Kmart, Amare, Gasols, Zach, Griffin, LMA, Love. The span of Duncan's career has been the golden age of the PF.

[rmt]

What he didn't have was that nerd / psycho edge Duncan has. David was competent, professional, reliable more than anything else… a military man. His virtue was hard, steady work for its own sake, because that's what a real man did, and David was a real man - from what I've seen of him I would guess the results probably came second to the process of conducting himself the right way. There wasn't the natural basketball genius, burning desire to prove himself, or single-minded obsession with winning championships you see in some of the other greats. (Although ironically, his military approach to the game did a lot to establish the culture that's led San Antonio to win 5 championships, and he was there for 2 of them… But it took a Duncan to lead that army to victory.)

The closest equivalent today would be Anthony Davis… obviously not quite as strong (or athletic), but probably a bit meaner. We'll see.

It's like the difference between having a job that you go to everyday - just one of many things in your life or a means to an end vs having a PASSION for basketball - eating, sleeping, living it. For DRob, a basketball game is probably way down the list from him teaching bible study that weekend or going to visit his school.

[Rake2204]

What you fail to take into account is the difference in temperament, intangibles between Duncan and DRob. For DRob, basketball was never the end-all, be-all of his life. He was deeply involved in many things like his faith, charity, music, etc. The intensity and competitiveness that drives Duncan is lacking in DRob. I think Duncan's competitiveness is under-rated - even after so many years, in a MIN game in the middle of winter - he still wants to win. Also, Duncan's more back to the basket game IMO is better suited for playoff success.It is interesting to witness how perception is shaped. Robinson did have other interests, but that didn't seem to stop him from absolute on-court dominance throughout a significant portion of his career. I always thought that was a little bit of a crock in terms of an analysis of his game.

It seemed he developed a reputation of being soft or not caring because he wouldn't snarl, fist pump all the time, then leave postgame quotes along the lines of. "Winning is the only thing in the entire world. I'm nothing without it."

I've wondered how that perception would have been changed if he'd had a better supporting cast more often throughout his prime. You know, instead of having to rely upon Negele Knight, Avery Johnson, Willie Anderson, J.R. Reid and a Dennis Rodman who was in the midst crashing motorcycles and quitting on a regular basis (shout out to Sean Elliott though).

If Robinson lollygagged through games on a regular basis, or if he gave up because he was busy thinking about playing the piano when he got home, I could see the issue. However, Robinson always competed and he succeeded, a lot. I believe many people freely neglect Robinson's sense of honor, discipline, and respect that came from a strong upbringing and Navy background. I never had the feeling he wasn't out there executing his job to the fullest while he played. I feel not winning a championship with AJ or Negele as his starting point guard (and Vinny Del Negro at the two) suddenly prompted the people who believe winning a championship is an individual accomplishment, to grasp at straws as to why Robinson's Spurs could not reach the top, at which point they settled on, "He's too smart and interested in other life things."

It's particularly interesting in this case because usually such a criticism would come while comparing Robinson to the type of guy who'd punch his teammate in the face, you know, for winning (ah-hem, Michael Jordan). But Tim Duncan's demeanor was very, very similar to Robinson's. I never got the feeling that basketball and winning were the only things going on in Duncan's life. If he ever suffered a career-ending injury, I would have never worried about him getting on with his life. Yet, because he was a part of numerous teams to reach the finals, it feels as though we wrap a form of perception around him to make him seem as though he had just the right demeanor. I guess it makes sense in a way, if someone wins, we all scrap to find out why that was - and sometimes those reasons make sense. Ditto for the losses.

[rmt]

It is interesting to witness how perception is shaped. Robinson did have other interests, but that didn't seem to stop him from absolute on-court dominance throughout a significant portion of his career. I always thought that was a little bit of a crock in terms of an analysis of his game.

It seemed he developed a reputation of being soft or not caring because he wouldn't snarl, fist pump all the time, then leave postgame quotes along the lines of. "Winning is the only thing in the entire world. I'm nothing without it."

I've wondered how that perception would have been changed if he'd had a better supporting cast more often throughout his prime. You know, instead of having to rely upon Negele Knight, Avery Johnson, Willie Anderson, J.R. Reid and a Dennis Rodman who was in the midst crashing motorcycles and quitting on a regular basis (shout out to Sean Elliott though).

If Robinson lollygagged through games on a regular basis, or if he gave up because he was busy thinking about playing the piano when he got home, I could see the issue. However, Robinson always competed and he succeeded, a lot. I feel not winning a championship with AJ or Negele as his starting point guard (and Vinny Del Negro at the two) suddenly prompted the people who believe winning a championship is an individual accomplishment, to grasp at straws as to why Robinson's Spurs could not reach the top, at which point they settled on, "He's too smart and interested in other life things."

It's just like how DRob is unfairly judged because of that series against Hakeem. But in the end, the Spurs did win a championship with Avery as its starting point guard. I don't knock the help and circumstances that each player has - that's life and there's no point in exchanging players and speculating on what one thinks might have happened.

[Kblaze8855]

Kevin Willis was an 18/16 player at his peak.

there may well have been 20 or 25 max contract centers by today's standards some of those years.

Rik Smits might get 90 million as a FA right now.

Anyway... I thought David was often over rated at the time but there's no question that at his best he would be in contention to be the best player in the league every season of the history of the NBA.

it sounds crazy before you put a little thought into it I know.....but he played in the league with the prime versions of least 6 people we have all heard mentioned as a candidate for the greatest player in their positions history and the idea that he was the best wasnt the least bit unusual.

David and not Michael Jordan came out on top in the 1990 NBA GM survey on who you would start a team with and he's only two years younger. several Hall of Fame coaches were on the record saying he was flat out the best player in the NBA early in his career. if NBA general managers would take him over absolute peak Michael Jordan you don't think it's possible they take him over anyone?

if you asked a significant group of people who knew the game in the early 90's if David Robinson or Michael Jordan was the best in the league Michael would win but it would not be unanimous.

people just lose sight of those things over the years. if you ask Hakeem versus Wilt, Russell, or Kareem it will be seen as legitimate discussion. If you ask David versus them people would act like its a joke... And yet for significant chunk of their time in the league together the general public would have said David was better than Hakeem.

David is probably the lowest rank all-time great who would in his day be considered just as good as whoever else was in the league.

He's considered something like a top 30 player but the version of him from his first six seasons dropped in the NBA with anyone else in it there would be significant portion of the basketball world saying he's the best player in the league.

let me reiterate... I would not agree but I watched it happen. I've heard from the mouths of people I find reasonable that he's the best player in a league that had Hakeem, Magic, and Jordan in it. So why would I assume no one would think that if he were playing with LeBron, Kareem, or Kobe?

that dude at his best would be considered within striking distance at least of anyone who ever played while they were playing their best. I'd argue long and hard but people would say it.

[triangleoffense]

Chuck In The Play-Offs > Malone and Robinson
No longer on suicide watch? That's good man, now stop trolling.

[Rake2204]

It's just like how DRob is unfairly judged because of that series against Hakeem. But in the end, the Spurs did win a championship with Avery as its starting point guard. I don't knock the help and circumstances that each player has - that's life and there's no point in exchanging players and speculating on what one thinks might have happened.Ha, truth on the Avery Johnson point. My wording left that one open. I'll say, if David Robinson had a just-past-his-prime Tim Duncan on his side in 1994, I'm thinking those Spurs have a great chance of winning a ring as well. My intention was to say that Robinson's team support (and their collective collapse during some playoff runs) are the biggest reason those teams never won a ring, not the fact that Robinson enjoyed working on electronics in his free time.

Consequently, as a result of Robinson's teams winning zero championships, I felt wild conclusions were drawn as a means of explaining the lack of rings. In the case of Robinson, who never showed any signs of giving up or not giving his absolute all while on the court, and who had a similar temperament to Tim Duncan, I think a lot of those accusations are frivolous.

Again, if he'd had a real team that somehow managed to win it all in '94 (let's say Vinny Del Negro got hot during the playoffs and hit 44% of 11 threes he was attempting per game while teams doubled Robinson), folks would have been talking about Robinson's intangibles, "Oh man, what a cool character. Never got too high or too low. Just operated. Always knew when to pass and incorporate his teammates." Flipping those traits one way or another is a little bit of a cop out in my opinion, and I feel that's what often happens when discussing former and current players, particularly Robinson.

[BoutPractice]

Rake2204 > Not that I believe it literally explains everything (ie that it has the power to determine team results in and of itself), but I do think there is a slight psychological difference, the one between chasing 'excellence' (a word that might as well define David Robinson as a general human being) and wanting to be the best. It's that 'good, better, best' nursery rhyme Duncan's mother drilled into his head… It's clear he clings on to it as a defining element of his personality (her death affected him a lot). Combine that with the fact he had to give up competitive swimming, which he could've been great at, and you can get an idea what makes him tick - he needs to be the best at basketball, which means the winner, the one with the biggest trophy in his hands. It's the only standard that'll satisfy him.

There's a lot of misdirection in Duncan's persona - this whole 'reasonable, normal guy' routine is a charade. He's stoic not because he doesn't care, but because he does, because he knows that showing a single weakness makes him vulnerable to losing. With him I'm always reminded of that missed layup in game 7 of the 2013 Finals, the one time he really showed his frustration.. you could just feel the burning desire to win, the pain to see himself falling short, and how spontaneous it all was.

Of course David Robinson was competitive, of course he cared about winning. And he always played hard, and did his very best. But he probably didn't need it on the deep existential level Duncan needs it.

[iamgine]

David Robinson has owned Hakeem Olajuwon pretty much all their career. Their regular season head to head record was 20 wins for Robinson and 12 wins for Hakeem before Tim Duncan came along. In this period Hakeem was limited to Iverson-like efficiency (45 FG%, 49.8 TS%). After Tim Duncan, Hakeem never won another game against San Antonio (10 losses).

They only met once in the playoff, Hakeem happened to be on his groove and that's what people remember.

[Rake2204]

Rake2204 > Not that I believe it literally explains everything (ie that it has the power to determine team results in and of itself), but I do think there is a slight psychological difference, the one between chasing 'excellence' (a word that might as well define David Robinson as a general human being) and wanting to be the best. It's that 'good, better, best' nursery rhyme Duncan's mother drilled into his head… It's clear he clings on to it as a defining element of his personality (her death affected him a lot). Combine that with the fact he had to give up competitive swimming, which he could've been great at, and you can get an idea what makes him tick - he needs to be the best at basketball, which means the winner, the one with the biggest trophy in his hands. It's the only standard that'll satisfy him.

There's a lot of misdirection in Duncan's persona - this whole 'reasonable, normal guy' routine is a charade. He's stoic not because he doesn't care, but because he does, because he knows that showing a single weakness makes him vulnerable to losing. With him I'm always reminded of that missed layup in game 7 of the 2013 Finals, the one time he really showed his frustration.. you could just feel the burning desire to win, the pain to see himself falling short, and how spontaneous it all was.

Of course David Robinson was competitive, of course he cared about winning. And he always played hard, and did his very best. But he probably didn't need it on the deep existential level Duncan needs it.I agree there can be a difference between chasing excellence and thirsting to be the best. I just may dispute the idea or belief that Robinson didn't want to be the best, at least in a similar realm to that of Tim Duncan. I think Duncan strives to be the best, but I never got the feeling that he was psychopathic about it, like, say, Michael Jordan.

At times, it feels as though Robinson was punished for being an openly diverse individual, as if it meant one couldn't possibly strive to win and need to win when he's got things like God, saxophone, and responsible fatherhood on his side. And if we want to make the case that the guy who unfortunately has nothing in his life but winning at basketball has more inherent hunger than someone like Robinson, I believe I could agree. But I also believe plenty of people throughout basketball history have attained legend & winner status without being a 100% basketball/0% real life type of guy, including Duncan.

Again, had the Spurs succeeded in the mid-90's, I feel as though we'd be sharing the same type of stories about Robinson as you just did about Duncan. "Man, when Robinson said his team played like garbage after losing to Utah in '94, you just knew he needed to win, because that was very unlike him to speak like that."

I believe Robinson had the mindset alongside all the tools & skills, to be an NBA champion. The typical aspects of a player who's got "better things to do" in their life besides playing basketball - laziness, poor conditioning, uninspired play, did not apply to him. Instead, he was a supremely conditioned athlete who ran the court like a gazelle, put up legendary performances like clockwork, and was, in fact, very affected by his team's inability to win while having folks randomly throwing the "soft" label at him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

From 1990-1999, Robinson played in 18 Playoff series. Here are the 'greats' he went up against:

Mutombo (95)

Hakeem (95)

Shaq (99)

So basically we're ignoring the regular-season...where players ALSO get their wear and tear?


Here's the great PFs Duncan faced from 98-03 alone:

Karl Malone (98)

Kevin Garnett (99, 01)

Dirk (01, 03)

Well, first of all, Hakeem and Shaq alone are better than ANY of the guys you mentioned.

Secondly...

Duncan didn't "guard" Dirk in the traditional sense. He helped in spots, but Dirk's game is that of a perimeter players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEAEzfN0kA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGsybGalwOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y9xgHiPsY4

All I see are mixtures of Ferry, Daniels and Bowen...with Duncan helping occasionally (as I said).

Against Malone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYdwawgf8Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y9xgHiPsY4

I see Duncan getting lots of help from DRob and Will Purdue.

Vs KG?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GzLdrHMyzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqIRm0RXuOAI

Duncan is defending KG, but I also see Rose, Perdue and Drob playing him tons as well.

Like I said, most of the guys you mentioned had the ability to take Duncan away from the basket, and because of his slow feet, the Spurs were forced to put a variety of individual defenders on said offensive player.


Let's not talk about competition here.

Lets not, because DRob's competition at center, H2H when they actually defended each other arguably every possession - was better.

This is the issue I have with Duncan fans. They embellish everything he does, and overrate the guy's self worth.


Kevin Willis - really stretching there, aren't you?


Kevin Willis was an 18/16 player at his peak.

there may well have been 20 or 25 max contract centers by today's standards some of those years.

Rik Smits might get 90 million as a FA right now.

Nuff said.

[thefatmiral]

Robinsons best teammate during his prime was Sean elliot. Only valid excuse for not winning rings.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Better than Duncan. Though people can't comprehend that ...

[ProfessorMurder]

Well, yeah. Considering Robinson is better at... everything.
Not true.

[bizil]

I think in terms of sheer athletic ability, peak D Rob could be the most athletic center of all time. What separates him in the grand scheme from Wilt, Dream, Kareem, Shaq, and Moses is the fact that he didn't dominate in the post offensively like those guys did. U can create more double teams and collapse a defense when u dominate on the block.

But David's scoring numbers were awesome nonetheless. And he AT LEAST dominated the paint on defense. So at his best, he's a top 6 caliber center of all time peak wise. I would take only Cap, Wilt, Dream, Shaq, and Moses over him. In the two way sense, I think he's in the top 3 range peak wise.

[ShawkFactory]

Better than Duncan. Though people can't comprehend that ...
As an individual player perhaps. If rather have Duncan leading my team, and I think most would agree

[ArbitraryWater]

As an individual player perhaps. If rather have Duncan leading my team, and I think most would agree

I dont see the distinction, better player is the one you build around, pick in a draft, etc. obviously.

[Smoke117]

He was what Dwight would be if he actually had skills.

But he was soft and didn't have a a post game on the level of guys like Hakeem and Shaq, which is why he under performed in the playoffs.

He under performed in the playoffs because teams just threw double and triple teams at him all game. He never had any any real help. The Spurs were only winning as many games as they were because he was so dominate on both ends of the floor. He carried those teams to 55-60 wins. For some reason people think those 90s Spurs teams were better than they really were...they were only winning so much because of his dominance.

Also, people who say he didn't have a post game don't know what they are talking about. He had a post game, but he was so much quicker than every other center and great ball handler for the position so he used that to his advantage playing face up. That's why he averaged so many ft's...he would get by whoever was defending and force the foul at the rim.

[Smoke117]

He would be the best player today. And back then in the 90s he was Top 10.

Top 10...lol. David Robinson was already a top 5 player in the league his first season. From 1990 through 96 he was no lower than top 3-5.

[TheBigVeto]

Top 10 Center of all time

[houston]

He was soft and Duncan saved his career.

[Round Mound]

David was probably the 2nd Best Rim Protector of the 90s after Moutombo but his play-off career wasn`t very impressive especially as a scorer and was never clutch in the play-offs.

18.1 PPG on 47.9% FG on 13.0 FGAs PG in the play-offs :confusedshrug:

I remember telling my friends he would get destroyed by Hakeem in 1995 cause he is soft, they all laughed and did not believe me but it happened.:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

In 92, he was top 10 in 5 categories: points, rebounds, blocks, steals, and %. He was pretty good.

[SsKSpurs21]

I am not sure why everyone is comparing David to Dwight Howard? maybe based on physicality but I would most likely compare him to Kevin Garnett.

their careers are very similar if you think about it.

both had ungodly pts/rebs/asts/blks.
both played away from the rim
both were athletic freaks who could guard 1-5 positions
both had weak supporting casts

David was alot better than KG though. I miss that guy. hes the reason i became a Spurs fan. :cheers:

[JohnnySic]

I think in terms of sheer athletic ability, peak D Rob could be the most athletic center of all time. What separates him in the grand scheme from Wilt, Dream, Kareem, Shaq, and Moses is the fact that he didn't dominate in the post offensively like those guys did. U can create more double teams and collapse a defense when u dominate on the block.

But David's scoring numbers were awesome nonetheless. And he AT LEAST dominated the paint on defense. So at his best, he's a top 6 caliber center of all time peak wise. I would take only Cap, Wilt, Dream, Shaq, and Moses over him. In the two way sense, I think he's in the top 3 range peak wise.
http://product.images.fansedge.com/49-08/49-08388-J.jpg "Hi"

[Dragonyeuw]

I am not sure why everyone is comparing David to Dwight Howard? maybe based on physicality but I would most likely compare him to Kevin Garnett.

their careers are very similar if you think about it.

both had ungodly pts/rebs/asts/blks.
both played away from the rim
both were athletic freaks who could guard 1-5 positions
both had weak supporting casts

David was alot better than KG though. I miss that guy. hes the reason i became a Spurs fan. :cheers:

I must be getting senile but I don't recall Robinson guarding perimeter players. Otherwise, regarding the Garnett comparison, KG never shut down the paint the way Robinson did, and Admiral was a better scorer.

[Cali Syndicate]

I think in terms of sheer athletic ability, peak D Rob could be the most athletic center of all time. What separates him in the grand scheme from Wilt, Dream, Kareem, Shaq, and Moses is the fact that he didn't dominate in the post offensively like those guys did. U can create more double teams and collapse a defense when u dominate on the block.

But David's scoring numbers were awesome nonetheless. And he AT LEAST dominated the paint on defense. So at his best, he's a top 6 caliber center of all time peak wise. I would take only Cap, Wilt, Dream, Shaq, and Moses over him. In the two way sense, I think he's in the top 3 range peak wise.

Yeah, he was primarily a face up player, kinda like amare stoudemire. Top shelf athleticism but he didn't have that strong lower body to grind it out nor did have a strong post skill set . Only if he had a good pick n roll pg who could occasionally set him up. But agreed, Robinson definitely is one of the best two way centers all time

[Dragonyeuw]

Yeah, he was primarily a face up player, kinda like amare stoudemire. Top shelf athleticism but he didn't have that strong lower body to grind it out nor did have a strong post skill set . Only if he had a good pick n roll pg who could occasionally set him up. But agreed, Robinson definitely is one of the best two way centers all time

In the last 25 years, you could probably only argue that Hakeem peaked at a higher 2 way level. Shaq was more dominant offensively but often lazy on defense. Robinson put as much effort into his defense as his offense, he was actually looked at as a scoring Bill Russel at one point. Hakeem's postseason scoring was better during his championship run, a level Robinson never reached.

[wang4three]

He was fantastic.

[HurricaneKid]

He was SWARMED in the playoffs and his poor reputation for playoff play is the only thing that has stopped him from the great legacy he earned. He was a slighter C and played in an age where bruisers reigned. He was comfortably a top 20 all time player. If he played today his gifts would be even more apparent and he would go down as the all time great he is.

In 1994 he came into the final game of the RS essentially tied with Shaq for the scoring lead. He dropped 71 points, because he wanted to, to win the scoring title. Players wouldn't do that today but it shows what he was capable of. To do that because he NEEDED to, not because it was a random night in Feb against a bad team and he was feeling it.

And in the 90s no one thought Dream was better than the Admiral. Robinson beat him out for more All-NBA honors than not, etc. The lens of history has focused on how Dream pummeled him in the 95 playoffs and shifted their careers based on a single series. But I always thought it was silly to so comfortably allow Dream to leapfrog him just because of that. But Robinson's lack of playoff success is hard to argue against.

[Dragonyeuw]

And in the 90s no one thought Dream was better than the Admiral. Robinson beat him out for more All-NBA honors than not, etc. The lens of history has focused on how Dream pummeled him in the 95 playoffs and shifted their careers based on a single series. But I always thought it was silly to so comfortably allow Dream to leapfrog him just because of that. But Robinson's lack of playoff success is hard to argue against.

That entire 95 run, culminating with the Spurs series, basically defined Hakeem's career. It made people forget that he was a first round casualty for many years, and that prior to 94 he wasn't considered better than either Robinson or Ewing for that matter. I think that if Robinson had managed to win at least ONE title during his peak as 'the man', taken with the rest of his career, and he's easily inside the top 15. As is, he's a top 20 player in spite of his relative underwhelming playoff career compared to other GOAT level players.

[ralph_i_el]

Robinson is similar to Anthony Davis in that he had a late growth spurt that left him with the quickness of a much smaller man. He's from my hometown, and he was on 6'4" as a high school senior. That's why he was able to go to the Naval Academy. They have a high restriction for new students, but he grew too tall during his time there. That, along with his obvious basketball talents, stopped him from actually having to complete military service.

[bizil]

http://product.images.fansedge.com/49-08/49-08388-J.jpg "Hi"

GOAT wise, Russ has a case as the best center of all time. BUT PEAK WISE, Robinson is EASILY BETTER than Russ. Russ's offensive game is what makes him take a backseat peak wise to guys like Robinson, Kareem, Wilt, Dream, etc. GOAT status and peak value are two different things. And when it comes to Russ's offensive game, it was CLEAR he wasn't an alpha dog kind of scorer. U can look at his scoring averages and shooting percentages as proof...

[chocolatethunder]

That entire 95 run, culminating with the Spurs series, basically defined Hakeem's career. It made people forget that he was a first round casualty for many years, and that prior to 94 he wasn't considered better than either Robinson or Ewing for that matter. I think that if Robinson had managed to win at least ONE title during his peak as 'the man', taken with the rest of his career, and he's easily inside the top 15. As is, he's a top 20 player in spite of his relative underwhelming playoff career compared to other GOAT level players.

Before Rudy T got to Houston and ran the offense through Hakeem, he was thought of as a super athletic and great player but nowhere near the level he was after he won a championship. He was thought of as being a guy who relied on his athleticism. It was a combination of him getting better each year and then Rudy implementing a system that was tailored to Hakeem and also made his numbers go way up. Robinson was even more athletic and could dribble really well. Hakeem could only dribble in short spurts in the post he was atrocious in the open court.

like at :28 in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olVaIZjfTx0

it got better over time but he never became a great open court dribbler.