Is LeBron the only player to be the greatest franchise cornerstone...for 2 teams?

[mehyaM24]

i would have said kaj, but magic, shaq, and even kobe have somewhat decent arguments.

lebron has taken cleveland to the finals twice, has multiple finals mvps, and the franchise saw him at the peak of his athletic prowess - possibly the greatest athlete in nba history

in miami, he took a dormant franchise hungover from shaq's departure, and won them 2 titles playing some of the greatest basketball a fan will see. in 2013, lebron nearly beat teams by himself at times, carrying a heavy load only shaq and hakeem would know anything about.


he also won 2 mvps and had 4 finals appearances in total.


i could be wrong, and there is someone that i'm forgetting, but i'm nearly 100% sure lebron is the ONLY player that can lay claim to this impressive feat. kaj would have and outside argument, but again, arguable at best.

[Asukal]

Yah he is the greatest franchise colluder. :bowdown: :applause:

[Purch]

The only argument Magic or know be has over Kareem as a laker, is that they've played their whole careers for the franchise.

But by that logic why Lebron over Wade?

[kennethgriffin]

if the prerequisite for corner stone doesnt involve championships. then i'm pretty sure theres allot of guys


since lebron never won a title in cleveland

shaq was the main corner stone in orlando and los angeles

many more guys...


and even if titles were part of it and we're not talking about lebron. wilt in philly and LA




and if youre talking about all time rankings for the entire history of the franchise...

wade will finish higher as a miami heat. he played his entire career there, won more titles. is the face of the heat franchise

[mehyaM24]

The only argument Magic or know be has over Kareem as a laker, is that they've played their whole careers for the franchise.

But by that logic why Lebron over Wade?



i think you're selling magic a bit short.

magic's peak and prime were dominant, as he led the lakers to multiple championships facing some of the greatest dynasties ever.


kareem as a laker = ATG. mvp seasons etc., but he did have his share of blunders in the playoffs, and couldn't get it done without magic despite having loaded rosters built around him.

i'm not saying he isn't the GOAT or doesn't have an argument in that regard...


but without magic, i don't think his career legacy would be anywhere close to what people now consider as GOAT.

[kennethgriffin]

i dont even understand OPs logic


he has kobe as a possibility. when kobe played with 1 franchise for every single game of his career


is he talking about all time? title teams? finals teams?


da **** is this guy on?

:lol


does he think lebron is ranked higher than wade as a miami heat?

[mehyaM24]

if the prerequisite for corner stone doesnt involve championships. then i'm pretty sure theres allot of guys


since lebron never won a title in cleveland

shaq was the main corner stone in orlando and los angeles

many more guys...


none of those guys were the franchises best players though.


which is why it makes lebron's career unique in that sense. lebron didn't get drafted into a celebrated franchise with past championships and GOAT success.


he was drafted into a cursed sports town with little success to fall back on.

you could also say that the expectations are lower - i get that. but it still doesn't take away what he has done, single-handedly, for the team and especially the city.


by himself, he basically made miami into a free agent destination. players were lining up to take paycuts because they wanted some of lebron's success and knew with him at the top, they too would get a bit of that glory.



and even if titles were part of it and we're not talking about lebron. wilt in philly and LA

wilt has no case as the greatest laker.


and if wade wins another ring/finals mvp, you might have a point. until then, lebron is the greatest franchise player they've had if we're talking about individual accomplishments.

[robby712]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4268349/this-is-my-house-dwyane-wade-o.gif (http://gifsoup.com/view/4268349/this-is-my-house-dwyane-wade.html) GIFSoup (http://gifsoup.com)

[IncarceratedBob]

wade is the cornerstone franchise player in miami...

[kennethgriffin]

none of those guys were the franchises best players though.


which is why it makes lebron's career unique in that sense. lebron didn't get drafted into a celebrated franchise with past championships and GOAT success.


he was drafted into a cursed sports town with little success to fall back on.

you could also say that the expectations are lower - i get that. but it still doesn't take away what he has done, single-handedly, for the team and especially the city.


by himself, he basically made miami into a free agent destination. players were lining up to take paycuts because they wanted some of lebron's success and knew with him at the top, they too would get a bit of that glory.




wilt has no case as the greatest laker.


and if wade wins another ring/finals mvp, you might have a point. until then, lebron is the greatest franchise player they've had if we're talking about individual accomplishments.




ohhhhh i get it. so youre talking about best franchise player of all time



well


Lebron:




7,919 points
2,225 rebounds
1,980 assists
193 blocks
489 steals
2012 NBA Champion
2013 NBA Champion
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2013-14 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2013-14 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011 NBA allstar
2012 NBA allstar
2013 NBA allstar
2014 NBA allstar
2 time FINALS mvp
2 time SEASON mvp








vs


Wade:


18,812 points
3,824 rebounds
4,600 assists
717 blocks
1,335 steals
2006 NBA Champion
2012 NBA Champion
2013 NBA Champion
2003-04 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005 NBA allstar
2006 NBA allstar
2007 NBA allstar
2008 NBA allstar
2009 NBA allstar
2010 NBA allstar
2011 NBA allstar
2012 NBA allstar
2013 NBA allstar
2014 NBA allstar
2015 NBA allstar
2005-06 NBA Finals MVP
2009-10 NBA All-Star Game MVP

NBA scoring champion (2009)

NBA All-Star Skills Challenge champion: 2006, 2007

Only player 6-foot-4 and under to record 700 blocks


Miami Heat franchise records

Games played, career: 754

Minutes, career: 27,460

Points, career: 18,231

Field goals made, career: 6,567

Free throws made, career: 4,732

Assists, career: 4,489

Steals, career: 1,300

Steals per game, career: 1.7

Points per game, season: 30.2 (2008-2009)

Steals per game, season: 2.2 (2008-2009)



http://1hiphopucit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/sportsillustrted.jpg






and the sad thing is... wade should have 2 finals mvp if not for lebron throwing the 2011 finals out of spite for his team mate




wade by a f*cking mile as Heats all time best franchise player


period

/thread

[Fallen Angel]

Chris Paul for the Los Angeles Clippers and New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans

[kennethgriffin]

Chris Paul for the Los Angeles Clippers and New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans


maybe someday


but Bob Mcadoo is still a better clipper

he only played 5 years there. but he won mvp and lead the league in scoring 3 times



if paul plays 10+ years there and sets franchise records.. brings a title.. he'l be the best



hes probably the best hornet though already

[ImKobe]

Shaq did that first when he left Orlando for LA, but Kobe after his 3 straight Finals runs cemented himself as the GOAT Laker.

[mehyaM24]

lol @ griffin


those are all longevity awards and stats. you could do the same with alonzo mourning.


by your logic, malone is a better scorer than kobe, jordan, wilt, dirk, and lebron.

or that malone was a better rebounder than shaq, duncan, garnett, hakeem and nate thurmond.


this isn't like i am comparing wade to someone with no titles or mvps. lebron has 2 of each, along with historical seasons and accomplishments.


in the 4 seasons lebron was there, the heat made 4 finals, and he was the best player in franchise history.



Chris Paul for the Los Angeles Clippers and New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans


good post - and there's the player i forgot.

paul and griffin are/will be greater franchise players. paul is the franchise leader in assists and has already had more playoff success than mcadoo. the clippers are more relevant than they ever have been in large part thanks to paul (and i actually think he's overrated).

[ImKobe]

Hi big time kobe fan here!Kobe has a way of forcing people to do things that sadly ruined his chance of being on this list.Had he not forced his way out he would have been the corner stone of the hornets and bobcats.Also he would of never meet that lying whore Kailyn Fiber.

He would have raped some other white girl

who cares about being the cornerstone of a pathetic franchise, Kobe would have never stayed in Charlotte had he been drafted there

[Hit_Em]

Hi big time kobe fan here!Kobe has a way of forcing people to do things that sadly ruined his chance of being on this list.Had he not forced his way out he would have been the corner stone of the hornets and bobcats.Also he would of never meet Kailyn Fiber which would of changed everything.He wouldnt have any rings without shaq or gasol but our mamba would avg 30+ for his career and thats all us kobetards really care about deep down inside

[kennethgriffin]

lol @ griffin


those are all longevity awards and stats. you could do the same with alonzo mourning.


by your logic, malone is a better scorer than kobe, jordan, wilt, dirk, and lebron.

or that malone was a better rebounder than shaq, duncan, garnett, hakeem and nate thurmond.


this isn't like i am comparing wade to someone with no titles or mvps. lebron has 2 of each, along with historical seasons and accomplishments.


in the 4 seasons lebron was there, the heat made 4 finals, and he was the best player in franchise history.





good post - and there's the player i forgot.

paul and griffin are/will be greater franchise players. paul is the franchise leader in assists and has already had more playoff success than mcadoo. the clippers are more relevant than they ever have been in large part thanks to paul (and i actually think he's overrated).


so if gordon hayward won a fmvp he becomes the all time greatest player in jazz history?

[20Four]

Hi big time kobe fan here!Kobe has a way of forcing people to do things that sadly ruined his chance of being on this list.Had he not forced his way out he would have been the corner stone of the hornets and bobcats.Also he would of never meet Kailyn Fiber which would of changed everything.He wouldnt have any rings without shaq or gasol but our mamba would avg 30+ for his career and thats all us kobetards really care about deep down inside
Reported

[mehyaM24]

so if gordon hayward won a fmvp he becomes the all time greatest player in jazz history?



lol what? he has nowhere near the impact or stats (not longevity stats) malone and stockton do.


so no, 1 fmvp wouldn't catapult him to unwarranted status.

he'll need a lot more of those along with elite play.


lebron's playoff scoring average with the heat is ~28 points a game, which is basically 5th all time. and his playoff per in 2012 and 2014 (efficiency) was right there with kareem, shaq & jordan's.

NBA MVP twice
2 straight seasons of being all nba 1st team defense/offense
leader in rapm (impact) from 2012-2014


wade can't touch that. not many can actually.

[ISHGoat]

lol what? he has nowhere near the impact or stats (not longevity stats) malone and stockton do.


so no, 1 fmvp wouldn't catapult him to unwarranted status.

he'll need a lot more of those along with elite play.


lebron's playoff scoring average with the heat is ~28 points a game, which is basically 5th all time. and his playoff per in 2012 and 2014 (efficiency) was right there with kareem, shaq & jordan's.

NBA MVP twice
2 straight seasons of being all nba 1st team defense/offense
leader in rapm (impact) from 2012-2014


wade can't touch that. not many can actually.

Debating with that retard is like arguing with a tree -- you won't get anywhere.

[PHILA]

Wilt with the Warriors ('64) and Sixers ('67).

[Mr. Jabbar]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means

[GrapeApe]

Not this BS again. Wade is the greatest player in Heat franchise history. Period. Not only does he dominate the Heat record books, he was drafted by the Heat, has played every minute of his career with the Heat, and will likely retire with the Heat. He's the Heat's first and only drafted superstar and he brought the Heat their first title. He's been the face of the franchise for over a decade. Not only that, Wade is largely responsible for Riley's God-like reputation as a GM. Wade was the catalyst for bringing Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh to Miami. Without Wade there is a strong chance that the Heat have zero titles right now. Wade being drafted completely changed the franchise, as well as Riley's career.

As a Heat fan I acknowledge and appreciate how great Lebron was here, but you cannot compare 4 years to 12+ years, especially when the player with 12+ years is also an all time great. It's not as if we're comparing Lebron to Udonis Haslem. Wade is a first ballot HOFer and arguably a top 20 player ever.

[Young X]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means:lol

[jayfan]

Isiah Thomas.



Hoosiers
Pistons







.

[Hit_Em]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means
Has to be the only poster who makes me laugh .Will someone please crown this man as the best poster on the site :roll:

Some of these trolls on here should take the jabbar comedy class

[kennethgriffin]

lol what? he has nowhere near the impact or stats (not longevity stats) malone and stockton do.


so no, 1 fmvp wouldn't catapult him to unwarranted status.

he'll need a lot more of those along with elite play.


lebron's playoff scoring average with the heat is ~28 points a game, which is basically 5th all time. and his playoff per in 2012 and 2014 (efficiency) was right there with kareem, shaq & jordan's.

NBA MVP twice
2 straight seasons of being all nba 1st team defense/offense
leader in rapm (impact) from 2012-2014


wade can't touch that. not many can actually.


youre not making any sense

wade had the higher single season average

wade had the better single seasons overall

wade had the better playoff/finals run



do you also consider more championships as longevity accolades? youre such a moron

:lol

[kennethgriffin]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means

this ^


during the 2011 finals he was the best corner stone in nba history

[Marchesk]

Dr J:

Squires
Nets
76ers

:rockon:

[mehyaM24]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means


this would be funny if lebron wasn't more clutch than kobe - data & facts suggest otherwise, unfortunately.

http://i.imgur.com/eQtlRU5.jpg


in the playoffs, in 4th quarters or overtime, 5:00 or less left in quarter, no team up more than 5

Kobe: 50-130 on 38.4% - http://bkref.com/tiny/7artR
LeBron: 65-140 on 46.4% - http://bkref.com/tiny/lvdsc


jokes on you. idiot :oldlol:

[ISHGoat]

if by cornerstone you mean standing on a corner like a stone when in crunch time then yes, by all means


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

youre not making any sense

wade had the higher single season average


lebron had a better year in 2012 than wade in 2009. fact.


better in the playoffs
better all-around numbers
superior accolades



wade had the better playoff/finals run

?

lebron was better in 2012, for the playoffs, than wade was in 2006.


raw stats suggest so, as do the advanced metrics which do nothing BUT measure impact.

you can argue 2013 as well, consider lebron had the greatest game 7 arguably of all time.


your logic is trash. malone > basically every player, ever, going by your line of thinking.


:lol :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

lebron had a better year in 2012 than wade in 2009. fact.


better in the playoffs
better all-around numbers
superior accolades




?

lebron was better in 2012, for the playoffs, than wade was in 2006.


raw stats suggest so, as do the advanced metrics which do nothing BUT measure impact.

you can argue 2013 as well, consider lebron had the greatest game 7 arguably of all time.


your logic is trash. malone > basically every player, ever, going by your line of thinking.


:lol :facepalm


youre pretty dumb.. considering youre a lebron fan who goes by analytics. yet you ignore espn and advanced statistical ratings/rankings

i think they gave wade the #1 all time playoff/finals run on espn

[mehyaM24]

youre pretty dumb.. considering youre a lebron fan who goes by analytics. yet you ignore espn and advanced statistical ratings/rankings

analytics and "ratings" by espn bloggers aren't synonymous

lmao at this idiot

[kennethgriffin]

analytics and "ratings" by espn bloggers aren't synonymous

lmao at this idiot


so your argument for lebron as the best heat player ever is

2011,12,13,14 in which he lead the heat in regular season PER 3 out of 4 times, made 4 straight finals, while being mainly responsible for losing 2 of them. and only somewhat responsible for winning in 2013

lebrons heat career was a joke buddy

1.5 for 4? ( with the 1.0 coming from ray allen? )


realistically hes 0.5 for 4

:roll:

[ISHGoat]

so your argument for lebron as the best heat player ever is

2011,12,13,14 in which he lead the heat in regular season PER 3 out of 4 times, made 4 straight finals, while being mainly responsible for losing 2 of them. and only somewhat responsible for winning in 2013

lebrons heat career was a joke buddy

1.5 for 4? ( with the 1.0 coming from ray allen? )


realistically hes 0.5 for 4

:roll:

realistically kobe is 0.5 for 7

2.0 coming from shaq, 1.0 from shaq & refs, 1.0 from gasol, 0.5 from artest

:roll:

edit: how could I forget, 0.3 of each of his rings goes to fisher (total 1.5), another 0.3 go to pjax (total 1.5).

this brings his 0.5 down to negative 2.5.

-2.5/7

the only player with negative ring count

top 5 goat doe

:roll:

[kennethgriffin]

realistically kobe is 0.5 for 7

2.0 coming from shaq, 1.0 from shaq & refs, 1.0 from gasol, 0.5 from artest

:roll:

edit: how could I forget, 1/3 of each of his rings goes to fisher (total 1.5), another 1/3 go to pjax (total 1.5).

this brings his 0.5 down to negative 2.5.

-2.5/7

the only player with negative ring count

top 5 goat doe

:roll:


if we're discounting rings based on having legendary sidekicks


lebron has 0

kobe has 2

[mehyaM24]

so your argument for lebron as the best heat player ever is

2011,12,13,14 in which he lead the heat in regular season PER 3 out of 4 times, made 4 straight finals, while being mainly responsible for losing 2 of them. and only somewhat responsible for winning in 2013

lebrons heat career was a joke buddy

1.5 for 4? ( with the 1.0 coming from ray allen? )


realistically hes 0.5 for 4

:roll:


:roll: at this garbage


so basically all you have are opinions with nothing substantial to back them up on?


weak.


can't think for yourself so you cling to bullshit cliches and myths from other inbred haters.

:sleeping

[Vaniiiia]

if we're discounting rings based on having legendary sidekicks


lebron has 0

kobe has 2
Pau isn't a legendary sidekick?

I honestly can't remember Kobe hitting any big shots in those championship runs.

I remember D-Fish coming up huge, Ariza, Pau saving them against OKC, and of course Artest.

I just don't remember much from Kobe at all. Not a knock on him but he doesn't have any real memorable moments in the playoffs. Well he does, but they're the negative ones like the 4 airballs in a row, blowing the 2004 championship, and the infamous 6/24.

*inb4 videos of shots you perceive to be memorable, save them, I don't care nor will I open the vids

[ISHGoat]

if we're discounting rings based on having legendary sidekicks


lebron has 0

kobe has 2

Which legendary sidekick did LEBRON play with in his championship seasons? The guy that avg like 15/4/3 in the playoffs? Or the guy that scored 0 in the game 7

Meanwhile kobe has lead his team in PER/bpm/any advanced stat only once out of his 5 champ seasons, and pau nearly edged(I.e. Carried) him in that season aswell

[GrapeApe]

Which legendary sidekick did LEBRON play with in his championship seasons? The guy that avg like 15/4/3 in the playoffs? Or the guy that scored 0 in the game 7

Meanwhile kobe has lead his team in PER/bpm/any advanced stat only once out of his 5 champ seasons, and pau nearly edged(I.e. Carried) him in that season aswell

So we're ignoring 2012 where Wade had a 26+ PER for the season and averaged 23/5/5 in the playoffs, including 23/6/5 in the finals? Are we also ignoring 2013 where he averaged 21/5/5 on 52% with a 24 PER, and despite being injured put up 20/5/4 in the finals, including a series saving game 4 performance? If Lebron had performed in the '11 finals the way Wade performed in the '12 and '13 finals, the Heat likely win the series. Not strictly in terms of raw numbers, but in the fact that Wade stepped up in crucial moments and crucial games.

[ISHGoat]

So we're ignoring 2012 where Wade had a 26+ PER for the season and averaged 23/5/5 in the playoffs, including 23/6/5 in the finals? Are we also ignoring 2013 where he averaged 21/5/5 on 52% with a 24 PER, and despite being injured put up 20/5/4 in the finals, including a series saving game 4 performance? If Lebron had performed in the '11 finals the way Wade performed in the '12 and '13 finals, the Heat likely win the series. Not strictly in terms of raw numbers, but in the fact that Wade stepped up in crucial moments and crucial games.

Wade was big and played like an all star, but hes acting like Wade had a legendary series like in 06 or was on another level compared to Pau.

I daresay Pau 09-10 > Wade 12-13. And the rest of the lakers supporting cast >> the heat supporting cast.

[Leroy Jetson]

maybe someday


but Bob Mcadoo is still a better clipper

he only played 5 years there. but he won mvp and lead the league in scoring 3 times



if paul plays 10+ years there and sets franchise records.. brings a title.. he'l be the best



hes probably the best hornet though already

Probably not for much longer.

[Naero]

i would have said kaj, but magic, shaq, and even kobe have somewhat decent arguments.

lebron has taken cleveland to the finals twice, has multiple finals mvps, and the franchise saw him at the peak of his athletic prowess - possibly the greatest athlete in nba history

in miami, he took a dormant franchise hungover from shaq's departure, and won them 2 titles playing some of the greatest basketball a fan will see. in 2013, lebron nearly beat teams by himself at times, carrying a heavy load only shaq and hakeem would know anything about.


he also won 2 mvps and had 4 finals appearances in total.


i could be wrong, and there is someone that i'm forgetting, but i'm nearly 100% sure lebron is the ONLY player that can lay claim to this impressive feat. kaj would have and outside argument, but again, arguable at best.

:biggums:

Is this really shaqpopcorn34 from Youtube? I've known you to have an assortment of alter egos there, but those two excerpts are convincing enough that this is your most fair-minded one. :applause:

[DoctorP]

You answered your own question. Next.

[TheBigVeto]

No.

Kareem was the cornerstone of the Bucks and the Lakers.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt with the Warriors ('64) and Sixers ('67).

You could include his '72 season with LA, as well.

[guy]

Maybe he is. Either way, it's a pretty arbitrary and irrelevant distinction.

[HOoopCityJones]

How the fucc was Kobe's name brought up when he's played for the Lakers going on 20 years?

[Papaya Petee]

....... if anyone trully thinks LeBron even comes close to Wade as the all-time Heats greatest player they should jump off a cliff.

And :roll: at the thought of ANY players run in Heat history greater than Wade in 2006.

Games 3-6 vs the Mavericks alone are greater than LeBrons entire 2012 run, never mind what Wade did to the Pistons.

[scandisk_]

http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/wade-to-lebron.jpg

close though

[knicksman]

Any atg, if they decide to become fakkits like bran, could win anywhere.

[aj1987]

Wade was big and played like an all star, but hes acting like Wade had a legendary series like in 06 or was on another level compared to Pau.

I daresay Pau 09-10 > Wade 12-13. And the rest of the lakers supporting cast >> the heat supporting cast.
:roll: @ '09 Pau being a better player than '12 Wade. '13 RS Wade > '10 Pau as well although Pau was undoubtably better in the PO's.

[andgar923]

So now Bron stans are trying to twist shit by giving Bron props for quitting and Colluding?
No shame

[imdaman99]

Not a good thread, Wade is easily the best Heat ever not some mercenary. Let's ask Heat fans instead of a Lebron stan :facepalm

[aj1987]

Not a good thread, Wade is easily the best Heat ever not some mercenary. Let's ask Heat fans instead of a Lebron stan :facepalm
LeBron is definitely a better player than Wade, but Wade is the GOAT Heat.

[kshutts1]

OP had plenty of time to make, and back up, his claim... and he failed to do so.

But I guess I'll try?

When I read "franchise cornerstone" I think of essentially the best "peak" as a member of that team. I think of the player that was most likely to get me titles over a period of time. With my understanding of that phrase, I would say Lebron is it for the Heat.

Wade is the greatest Heat player all time. Not even a debate, IMO.
Lebron is the best player to play for the Heat.
Lebron is also the cornerstone, based on the Heat being contenders four straight years with Lebron as their best player (and, again, my definition of the phrase).

I would also say Dwight Howard was the best "franchise cornerstone" for the Magic, even though Shaq was arguably the best player to play for them.

But as others have pointed out, Wilt and Kareem are candidates well before Lebron was even born.