If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[3ball]

But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone outside the paint, this was offset by zone being banned inside the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5.
.

[robby712]

I really don't know why I bother with you...Your post claims that the number of 3's is similar with the 1997 season or so. But now there are more players shooting a high % on more attempts per game. Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. No more iso iso iso:no:

[mehyaM24]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

[Trollsmasher]

players got better and their superior skills from the 3 point land allow them to run better offenses:confusedshrug:

[sd3035]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).


so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today

[kshutts1]

But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone outside the paint, this was offset by zone being banned inside the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5.
.
I don't know how ORtg is calculated, so this is a legit question. Not one of my normal 3ball-responses snarky comment things.

How much of an affect does the additional 3p % point (36.7 vs 36) in 08/09 over 96/97 affect the rating? What about the additional 3.3% in FT% (.771 vs .738)?

Edit: 3p change is minimal, but considering the uptick in attempts as well, I feel it's noteworthy.

[mehyaM24]

so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today



in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).

[sd3035]

in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).


T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year

[HurricaneKid]

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

[3ball]

so-so defense (in the 90's).


When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.





Shaq dominated in the 90s


Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).
.

[mehyaM24]

T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year



tmac was great, but i don't think you're reading my posts correctly.

you know the perimeter players in the 80s and early 90s all shooting WELL over 50%?


that isn't happening from 2000-2005.

[3ball]

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball.

Defenders have to cover so much more ground.


The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously

[Rooster]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.:rolleyes:

[guy]

Since 1980, the highest Ortg is 108.3 and the lowest is 102.2. The difference between the two is 6%. It's so incredibly stupid that this is always a topic and people feel the need to make that distinction especially when we are talking about individual stats across eras.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.:rolleyes:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2001/

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE :bowdown:

[Rooster]

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

The different rules cleared the lanes for guards to dribble drive and penetrate and allowed space specialist to thrive because teams would rather give 3 point shot then a layup. The game has evolve that way.

[3ball]

Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. No more iso iso iso:



^^^ Pure lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..

This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time

[Rooster]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2001/

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE :bowdown:

In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.

[Rose'sACL]

^^^ Pure ****ing lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..

This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
so instead of posting league stats, you posted lebron stats.
nice to see that you like lebron so much.

[3ball]

Shaq is MDE ever (except the stats below prove MJ was more dominant)


Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')



REGULAR SEASON

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.

Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
.

[mehyaM24]

In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.

those are dominant numbers against 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game - during the playoffs.


those might be somewhere near his career average, but his career average is ATG.


his peak = widely known as MDE.

[mehyaM24]

When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.



league wide drtg along with pace is why the 90s defense was "so-so" compared to 2000-2005


so no, it's not based on opinion. its a well-known historical fact.

look it up.



Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.


i don't care much for h2h stats, especially with a perimeter player that didn't see as much competition at sg as shaq did center.


shaq in his third season played peak hakeem to a stastitcal draw. literally.

for their careers:


Hakeem: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01


domination


other centers?


Mourning: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mournal01


Ewing: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01


Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01


Mutombo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mutomdi01&p2=onealsh01


Sabonis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01


Wallace: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=wallabe01



all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them. he raised his play against the best, and held them in check doing so - look at their career numbers vs the matchips against shaq.

[3ball]

Shaq is MDE


MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.





all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them.


His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's... :confusedshrug:

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.

[GrapeApe]

When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.



Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).



.
Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')



REGULAR SEASON

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.

Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
.

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit. Also, you cannot omit Shaq's rebounding advantage and simply say that MJ's assists cancel it out. That doesn't even make sense, especially considering Shaq was an outstanding passer in his own right. The only reason peak Jordan ranks higher is FT shooting (which albeit is critically important).

[ralph_i_el]

Offensive players are better too

[mehyaM24]

MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.

mj didn't face the comeptition shaq did at center.


fact



His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's... :confusedshrug:

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.



shaq = better peak player, better career stats, and outplayed all those centers, h2h.

just click those links i posted


and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency.

good enough to the 5th best scorer in the series - well behind shaq.


so shaq not only faced better competition at his position (meaning his stats are more impressive), but also won a title with little to no help.


jordan cant claim that - he was too busy letting pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking, defending and leaderhsip.


basically without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the postseason.

[J Shuttlesworth]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

[warriorfan]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

Defensive players not being allowed to lay a finger on a player with out a whistle has something to do with it...

[3ball]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.

[GrapeApe]

Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.

You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right? I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.

[3ball]

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender.


Shaq never played with scrubs - he played with stacked teams all the way up until he began declining in 2006.. :confusedshrug:

After a 41-41 rookie campaign and missed playoffs in 1993, Shaq landed Penny Hardaway in 1994.. From that point forward, he always played with stacked teams... Always.

Otoh, MJ played with scrubs in 1989 - those Bulls won 47 games - they would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So MJ took a would-be lottery team to the ECF and 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.. That's the same thing Lebron did this year (take a lottery team to 6 games with the champs), except Lebron only had to carry his lottery team starting midway through the playoffs (Kyrie and Love were healthy all RS).. Whereas MJ had to carry his lottery team all season.

Plus, MJ's stats were better.. Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.





Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.


Just for comparison sake - we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the Jordan Rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[tpols]

Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.).

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>

[TheMarkMadsen]

get them

[mehyaM24]

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>


truthfully, there's not much that separates kobe from other perimeter superstars during the first threepeat. especially when healthy, if we talk about sheer, unabated impact.

take the lakers first three peat for example.

in 2000, shaq carried one of heaviest burdens in history, right there with hakeem in 1994. his supposed "second best player", kobe, was outscored by multiple players in the finals, including a role player - and yet the lakers still won that series in 6.

how you ask? shaq average 38 & 17 and played elite defense.


you don't think carter, iverson or even tmac could have replicated role player status in 2000, and not win a ring with MDE shaq?


in 2001, the lakers went 15-1 in the postseason, and att, iverson & carter had arguably their greatest postseasons of their careers. people can act like kobe wasn't replaceable, but these guys would've done the same thing kobe did in his role (run the laker offense aka play off shaq).


2002? this was kobe's worst season as a "superstar". tmac and iverson were probably better anyway, so its not out of the question the lakers STILL three peat.


carter & iverson (even tmac to some degree) all had wear & tear because they had to carry their franchises from day one. playing with shaq would have remedied that, tons.


all in all, kobe is a great player who gets overrated by idiots. there have been tons of "great" players.



Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


and just for reference, mj was 1-9 in the playoffs before pippen came to chicago.


so lets set aside the myths and hyperbole for a second.

if shaq wasn't a winner before phil, then jordan was a cancer before pippen and phil.

[ImKobe]

in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).

I don't buy into the hype THAT much...clearly the defensive rule changes made it easier for perimeter players to get to the line/basket, but Kobe was putting up huge numbers on top defensive teams in the Playoffs during the 3-peat and he averaged 30/7/6 in 03 with 32 a game in the Playoffs, I believe 06 Kobe would have easily put up similar numbers if he played in the same situation under the old rules. You could point to his 2005 season, but he was playing injured and under different coaches with no real system in place.

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.

[tpols]

Of course Carter, Iverson, Tmac etc would have a good shot at winning rings with shaq.. they were all nba talents. Probably not a 3 peat seeing how close LA was to not attaining that in the first place.. like coming back from a 15+ point lead in a game 7 Q4 led by Kobe.. all the spurs where kobe just went off.. kings series that was super tight. There's no telling though.


I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.



the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.

[3ball]

You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right? I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.


That doesn't matter or alter the point being made:

In 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same, even though defenders supposedly had less freedom back then.

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[mehyaM24]

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.


they emphasized them during the 2005-2006 season.


look it up



I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.


lol at this idiot

the idea miami still gets past chicago with iguadala is downright hilarious.

thanks for the good laugh. :oldlol:


your comparison doesn't even make sense.


all those players i mentioned e.g. replacing kobe during the threepeat, have similar impact. iggy doesn't come close to lebron, who is elite on both sides.


if you had said kevin durant, you may have had some credibility left.



the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.

the 1987 celtics weren't legendary or goat. neither were the 1985 bucks.

don't let the facts get in the way though.

[sdot_thadon]

The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously
While just minutes previous....


Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.

Anybody else see a glaring problem?

[3ball]

and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency.



So what was Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals?

Or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals?

The bias against MJ by current fans is hilarioius... :oldlol:
.

[GrapeApe]

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>

I understand Shaq won his titles with all time great guards and it was a bit of hyperbole saying he'd contend for a title with scrubs, but my point is that peak Shaq is theoretically the best player in history to build around. He was the ultimate mismatch and completely disruptive on both ends. Yes he had some shortcomings as you mentioned, but it's foolish to dismiss his ability as simply being an enormous man. He was incredibly skilled, quick, agile, and explosive. He ran the floor well and had a terrific basketball IQ. He wasn't the lumbering oaf that your king kong analogy makes him out to be. The game has never seen a player with his combination of abilities.

[3ball]

While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?
wow bro, ur dumber than i ever realized.
.

[3ball]

pippen take over the team i.e. defending.


In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 out of 20 quarters (70%), to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5... Here are all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc


It was MJ's job to guard the opponent's starting PG or SG, depending on who was better.. He locked down PG's like Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=14), Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY), John Stockton, Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=13), Gary Payton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg), Rod Strickland - basically every PG in the league.

Otoh, Pippen only guarded SF's.. He never guarded any other position other than rare one-off's (like when he guarded the slowest PG of all time, Mark Jackson, lol).
.

[3ball]

While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?
Do you know the meaning of offsetting, or do you just post to prove how dumb you are

Today's spacing offsets current defensive tactics... You've read my posts for a while now, so you should know that.. but ur dumb, so i expect nothing less
.

[3ball]

pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking,


Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact

[mehyaM24]

Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact




i will post this again, seing as how you keep re-posting the same thing i already rebutted




So what was Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals?

Or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals?

The bias against MJ by current fans is hilarioius... :oldlol:


GOAT perimeter defense and elite playmaking vs someone who took plays off on defense and chucked.

big difference.


scottie's intangibles = goat like,


hence jordan's 1-9 record in the postseason without him.



Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%


from 1991-1998 (including 1995), during the bulls dynasty reign,

pippen = more assists per game during 5/7 of their playoff runs.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1995.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html


its stupid to go off percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


along with those numbers, from 1991-1998, pippen also had better +/- metrics on the defensive end via rapm - the highest of all perimeter players.


http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com

[sdot_thadon]

Do you know the meaning of offsetting, or do you just post to prove how dumb you are

Today's spacing offsets current defensive tactics... You've read my posts for a while now, so you should know that.. but ur dumb, so i expect nothing less
.
Don't get mad bro, get your shit straight. You're so delusional you don't even realize when you provide opposing views anymore.

[aj1987]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).
This literally implies that Wade >>> LeBron, when they're healthy. Dude absolutely destroyed the Pistons in the ECF until he got hurt. How did Shaq respond? The team lost by 25 points. Wade averaged 30/6/5 over the first 4 games (the ones he was healthy in) and this includes the 16 point stinker (first game of the series). Over the series, the '05 Pistons held Wade to 26/5/4 (2 injured games). The same team held LeBron to 27/9/6 the next season. A healthy LeBron, who averaged 31 PPG in the RS.

You really should stop posting, you pathetic LeBron stan.

[mehyaM24]

This literally implies that Wade >>> LeBron, when they're healthy. Dude absolutely destroyed the Pistons in the ECF until he got hurt. How did Shaq respond? The team lost by 25 points. Wade averaged 30/6/5 over the first 4 games (the ones he was healthy in) and this includes the 16 point stinker (first game of the series). Over the series, the '05 Pistons held Wade to 26/5/4 (2 injured games). The same team held LeBron to 27/9/6 the next season. A healthy LeBron, who averaged 31 PPG in the RS.

You really should stop posting, you pathetic LeBron stan.


one series makes wade > lebron?


great logic, sanjay. pickup the chicken curry off my floor while you're at it.

[aj1987]

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>
Same can be said for Kobe. When has Kobe ever carried teams to a championship without the best FC in the league? Not to mention the GOAT coach. Shaq carried Kobe to a ring in '00. That's not even debatable. Not to mention Shaq in '01, going up against the DPOY and CARRYING Kobe AGAIN to a title. 2002 was just a trifecta. IMO, Those teams were #1 Shaq, #2 Kobe, and role players.

31/15/3/3 in '00
29/13/4/3 in '01
29/13/3/3 in '02

Lets also not forget the 35/15/3/3 he dropped over the 3 Finals.


one series makes wade > lebron?


great logic, sanjay. pickup the chicken curry off my floor while you're at it.
A HEALTHY Wade and LeBron. According to your logic, you ****ing idiot. Wade had the best series amongst those two in the "GOAT era of defense". Again, that's according to you. Wade actually had the better first 2 seasons between them. Heck, LeBron didn't even make the PO's. Wade was hitting game winners in his rookie ****ing year. He had TWO in his rookie year, as a matter of FACT.

[3ball]

Don't get mad bro, get your shit straight. You're so delusional you don't even realize when you provide opposing views anymore.


What exactly is my opposing view?

Spacing makes it easier for today's player - that doesn't mean ORtg has to increase just based on that - spacing isn't the ONLY factor affecting ORtg, dumbass..

C'mon bud... You're a dumbass that got horrible grades in school... Admit it already

[mehyaM24]

i don't base my player rankings off one series.

only a clueless ape like yourself would do that.

lol

[3ball]

Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact






you keep re-posting the same thing i already rebutted



You didn't rebut anything...

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots... Period... That's it... There IS nothing to rebut because it's a fact.

MJ not only assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots, but he did so while leading the league in scoring (50-70% more scoring than Pippen).

[aj1987]

i don't base my player rankings off one series.

only a clueless ape like yourself would do that.

lol
tl;dr, you can't argue ANY of my points. :roll:

****ing moron. You literally seem like the guy who used to clean my car. He tried to talk shit, but when I bring up facts, he used to call me a racist. Dude was a ****ing white guy, BTW.:roll: :roll:

Calling me Sanjay? Meh, that's not even the post popular Indian name. Know your shit before you TRY to diss someone, you little ****.

[3ball]

tl;dr, you can't argue ANY of my points. :roll:



****ing moron. You literally seem like the guy who used to clean my car. He tried to talk shit, but when I bring up facts, he used to call me a racist. Dude was a ****ing white guy, BTW.:roll: :roll:

Calling me Sanjay? Meh, that's not even the post popular Indian name. Know your shit before you TRY to diss someone, you little ****.


Ether.

And I'll add some thread cliffs:


While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.

[sdot_thadon]

Ether.

And I'll add some thread cliffs:


While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.
So you just made a big ass circle to return to what? Nothing. It was harder to score in the 90's yet at the same time ortg proves it was equally difficult? That's what happens when you try and get too cute with your points bro. You actually did more here to destroy a previous argument of your own than prove anything. Congrats.:applause:

[3ball]

So you just made a big ass circle to return to what? Nothing. It was harder to score in the 90's yet at the same time ortg proves it was equally difficult?



You're blatantly changing what I said - I said stable ORtg over the years proves it's EQUALLY HARD to score across the eras:





While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.

[sdot_thadon]

You're blatantly changing what I said - I said stable ORtg over the years proves it's EQUALLY HARD to score across the eras:

:oldlol:
See what I mean, when you spew so much nonsense you can't keep up with your own stuff. You said in this thread exactly what I quoted.


The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously

Along with what seems like 100 threads saying the same.....

[B]con

[3ball]

The extra ground today's defenders must cover (spacing) makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously


My statement above (that spacing makes it easier for today's player) doesn't contradict the fact that ORtg has been stable over the years.

Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg - the fact that you think it's the only factor affecting ORtg proves you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:

It can't be any clearer than that (that you're incompetent)

[sdot_thadon]

My statement above (that spacing makes it easier for today's player) doesn't contradict the fact that ORtg has been stable over the years.

Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg - the fact that you think it's the only factor affecting ORtg proves you're a dumbass.. :confusedshrug:

It can't be any clearer than that (that you're a dumbass)
.
You still can't see the conflict of saying something makes it easier immediately after saying all is equal. One of us is in fact a dumbass, I think you're pointing at the wrong guy.:rockon:

[3ball]

You still can't see the conflict of saying something makes it easier immediately after saying all is equal.


You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.

[sdot_thadon]

You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.
Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?:rockon:

[3ball]

Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?


It's not a contradiction to say that today's spacing makes it easier for today's players, while also saying that ORtg remains stable... Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg.

Now, back to the thread cliffs:


While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.
.

[mehyaM24]

still no rebuttal on this itt:






GOAT perimeter defense and elite playmaking vs someone who took plays off on defense and chucked.

big difference.


scottie's intangibles = goat like,


hence jordan's 1-9 record in the postseason without him.


from 1991-1998 (including 1995), during the bulls dynasty reign,

pippen = more assists per game during 5/7 of their playoff runs.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1995.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html


its stupid to go off percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


along with those numbers, from 1991-1998, pippen also had better +/- metrics on the defensive end via rapm - the highest of all perimeter players.


http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

.
Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact

.

[3ball]

Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact





still no rebuttal on this itt:


its stupid to go off assist percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT



There's no need to respond to this because it's wrong - everyone knows assist percentage is the most relevant stat relating to assists.

As the previous post shows, MJ's assist percentage was FAR higher than Pippen's so he assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots... Period.

There's no disputing that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen... :confusedshrug: ... So you have no point.

[mehyaM24]

assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.

[juju151111]

assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.
Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?

[3ball]

apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


Wow, you're even dumber than sdot_thadon... ****ing amazing.

Assist % does NOT mean assist per 100... Assist % is the percentage of teammates' shots that MJ assisted on.

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots.. Anyone remotely knowledgeable knows that assist % is the most relevant stat.

[GrapeApe]

Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch! It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties. The original point-forward.

[3ball]

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch!

It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties. The original point-forward.


You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.


Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced

[ralph_i_el]

Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.
:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******

[3ball]

:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******


By saying this, all you're proving is that you have no idea what we're arguing - the distance of the line has no relevance to the point being made.

Remember what the argument is - the argument is that stable ORtg over the years proves that it's equally hard to score in different eras... Opponents of this view say that defense IS better today, but today's 3-point shooting offsets the superior defense, which causes today's ORtg to remain the same as previous eras.. This is proven false because in 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same back then (less actually).

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the original point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[GrapeApe]

You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.


Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced

So let me get this straight. I'm not too young to have seen the first 3-peat (because I praised Jordan), but I'm too young to have seen the second 3-peat because I stated a fact that somehow you disagree with? Jordan himself would tell you that Pippen had more playmaking responsibilities in the second 3-peat. Are you familiar with the concept of age? A player simply cannot do the same things in their mid 30's that they were able to do in their 20's, hence the reason second 3-peat Jordan shared and at times deferred playmaking duties.

You do realize Jordan was human right? You talk about him like he was some kind of deity.

[GIF REACTION]

From what I've come to realize is that... for all intents and purposes, the league has changed stylistically, but the outputs haven't changed much.

Today the game is more team orientated than ever. For an individual player to shine, you need to have multiple scoring options on the floor. In the past, you could get away with 2-3 players who weren't genuine offensive threats because of the ISO ball from the illegal defense rules.

The talent hasn't suddenly dropped. Top players don't score as much because it doesn't equate to success like it used to. Today you can go out and score 30 a game, but it will most likely be to the detriment of their team.

People like to use the 2006 scoring leader increase as an example. How many of those scoring leaders had much success playing that way? It was only til Kobe played more team orientated, that he started succeeding again.

[ralph_i_el]

By saying this, all you're proving is that you have no idea what we're arguing - the distance of the line has no relevance to the point being made.

Remember what the argument is - the argument is that stable ORtg over the years proves that it's equally hard to score in different eras... Opponents of this view say that defense IS better today, but today's 3-point shooting offsets the superior defense, which causes today's ORtg to remain the same as previous eras.. This is proven false because in 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same back then (less actually).

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the original point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.
You're saying ortg with a short line back then is equal to what it is today with the long line. You lose

[GIF REACTION]

From what I've come to realize is that... for all intents and purposes, the league has changed stylistically, but the outputs haven't changed much.

Today the game is more team orientated than ever. For an individual player to shine, you need to have multiple scoring options on the floor. In the past, you could get away with 2-3 players who weren't genuine offensive threats because of the ISO ball from the illegal defense rules.

The talent hasn't suddenly dropped. Top players don't score as much because it doesn't equate to success like it used to. Today you can go out and score 30 a game, but it will most likely be to the detriment of their team.

People like to use the 2006 scoring leader increase as an example. How many of those scoring leaders had much success playing that way? It was only til Kobe played more team orientated, that he started succeeding again.
Pretty much this

[sdot_thadon]

Wow, you're even dumber than sdot_thadon... ****ing amazing.

Assist % does NOT mean assist per 100... Assist % is the percentage of teammates' shots that MJ assisted on.

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots.. Anyone remotely knowledgeable knows that assist % is the most relevant stat.
No deposit, 1st 3 months free? No thanks bro, I like my house.:cheers:

[knicksman]

Youre an idiot if you cant see bran sacrificing his team for stats. These bran stans have the same iq as sheeps

[DonDadda59]

I really don't see what the counter argument is- the league wasn't trying to make it harder for players/teams to score when they instituted the rule changes in the beginning and middle of the last decade. The people in charge of the changes explicitly told us that the aim was to open up the game more, facilitate more scoring... and that's exactly what happened. Both individual and team scoring went up noticeably from the mid-late 90s.

In '00-'01, the last year before the illegal defense/3-second violation rule changes, the league was averaging 95 PPG on c. 47% eFG. By 2014, with the pace remaining stagnant in the 91-93 range as it had been in the seasons pre changes, the league was averaging 101 PPG on 50% eFG. Teams were scoring more, on better percentages, playing the same exact pace as the pre-rule change era.

During the 90s, only 2 players averaged at least 30 PPG- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only accomplished the feat once.

From '00-'10, 6 different players reached the 30 PPG plateau, 3X as many as the 90s produced... 3 alone in '05-'06 (first season the NBA eliminate hand-checking on the perimeter). All of them were perimeter players and 2 of them- Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant who racked up a combined 6 scoring titles and peaked at the same time with 33 and 35 PPG respectively... were drafted in 1996. Their peak scoring during the 90s was 20-27 PPG.

Following the rule changes, teams scored more on better percentages, individual player PPG (specifically perimeter players) skyrocketed.

The NBA got its wish.

Really... what is there to argue? :biggums:

[GIF REACTION]

It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today

You need a 5 man offense with multiple guys who can shoot rebound and pass

Individual stats have taken a hit

As success is always the main goal

[DonDadda59]

It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today

Triangle offense won 8 championships in the 'illegal defense era', 3 championships in the new era as recently as 2010... 8 years after the new rules were implemented. The Lakers won in '01, the last year before the change and in '02, the first season with illegal defense rules eliminated.

Spurs 90s half court post up offense- 1 championship pre rule changes, 3 championships post rule changes. Spurs 80s lite offense- 1 championship in the new era.

Bron iso drive and dish offense 2 for 6 in the new era.

:yaohappy:

[3ball]

Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced




Are you familiar with the concept of age?


Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.

[kshutts1]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
A few things that have not been answered:

1) The FT disparity. How does this affect ORtg?

2) For 3p, the increased % and the increased attempts. Neither is by a lot, but both are real. How minimally does this affect ORtg?

3) Why is 3ball cherry-picking the two to three year span in which the 3 point line moved closer? Oh, that's right, because that's the only time the attempts got anywhere near to current. 9 3p attempts per game before the change, 13 after. Significant changes.

4) Why is the "modern era" being defined as 2005-2011, rather than until the 2015 season?

[kshutts1]

Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.
The stats are the stats. Can't dispute that. But I have a couple questions about them.

Why does BBR call assist % "an estimate of..."? Why must they estimate?
How is it possible that Pippen averaged more assists, in less minutes, but has a lower assist %?

[sdot_thadon]

The stats are the stats. Can't dispute that. But I have a couple questions about them.

Why does BBR call assist % "an estimate of..."? Why must they estimate?
How is it possible that Pippen averaged more assists, in less minutes, but has a lower assist %?
Possibly due to minute overlap, it's the percentage of team assists while on the floor. So scottie likely got a larger percentage of his while he was on the floor sans Mj. Wonder if they have splits available. Doesn't make sense though since Mj was a "full time off ball player".....

[sdot_thadon]

It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today

You need a 5 man offense with multiple guys who can shoot rebound and pass

Individual stats have taken a hit

As success is always the main goal
I somewhat agree. Most of the guys here aren't taking into account the rules changes were made to spice up the post jordan era scoring drought. Once the changes were made scoring skyrocketed in an adjustment period. Offense was given much more leeway without the defense knowing how to deal with it, nor being properly prepared to defend it. New offensive strategy gives way to new defensive strategy and vise versa.

[kshutts1]

Possibly due to minute overlap, it's the percentage of team assists while on the floor. So scottie likely got a larger percentage of his while he was on the floor sans Mj. Wonder if they have splits available. Doesn't make sense though since Mj was a "full time off ball player".....
The only thing I can think of is that when Pippen sat but Jordan played, Jordan got nearly every assist for the Bulls. Which, considering his ball-hogging-but-apparently-off-ball ways, makes sense and is pretty realistic. Would artificially increase Jordan's assist % in a fashion.

[ralph_i_el]

http://i.imgur.com/hGU0TEo.jpg

3ball is a joke. Don't feed the troll

[sdot_thadon]

The only thing I can think of is that when Pippen sat but Jordan played, Jordan got nearly every assist for the Bulls. Which, considering his ball-hogging-but-apparently-off-ball ways, makes sense and is pretty realistic. Would artificially increase Jordan's assist % in a fashion.
Yeah something like that. I still can't believe they push this off ball bull anyway. I'm sure when either were on the floor without the other, they got nearly all the assists. But whenever Mj was on the floor, he got what he wanted screw the offense. If he wanted a clearout he was getting it. If he wanted to bring the ball, up he was. No different than any other star.

[GimmeThat]

I wonder whats the correlations between ORtg, DRtg, and the average age on the roster of championship teams.

it would certainly be more interesting if we were to include how that rating goes up or down in the following year to see if we would be able to determine an indicator.


since the change of variance of age/athleticism/versatility during each draft tends to remain minimal. - the market efficiency theory

[StrongLurk]

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

Great post

[GrapeApe]

Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.

Are you really that dense? You are making my point for me. There was a larger disparity between MJ and Pippen's assist % in the first 3-peat. MJ's assist totals and per game averages were also higher in the first 3-peat. In the second 3-peat, MJ's assist totals and per game averages dropped. Pippen's numbers were higher in both categories. In addition, the gap between MJ and Pippen's assist % dropped to the point of being nearly identical.

Based on the FACTS that I just presented, Pippen took on a larger playmaking role in the second 3-peat than he did in the first 3-peat. There is no disputing this and the numbers back it up. It didn't happen by accident either, it was by design. Jordan at ages 33-35 was no longer capable of being the primary playmaker and scorer every night. This is in no way a knock against Jordan. As great as he was he was not impervious to aging. Not only that, Pippen had established himself as an outstanding passer and playmaker. MJ was all about winning and he knew that ceding some of his responsibilities (to another all time great) would help the Bulls win more championships.

[3ball]

Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact


.


Pippen took on a larger playmaking role in the second 3-peat than he did in the first 3-peat.


Who gives a shit.. That doesn't change the fact that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of teammates' shots than Pippen.

Considering that he assisted on a higher percentage of teammate shots AND scored between 50-70% more - this makes MJ the primary playmaker on the Bulls.. There's no argument the other way.

Btw, see more MJ myths exposed here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384304)... See many unknown observations on Lebron's game here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384848):
.

[GrapeApe]

Who gives a shit.. That doesn't change the fact that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of teammates' shots than Pippen.

Considering that he assisted on a higher percentage of teammate shots AND scored between 50-70% more - this makes MJ the primary playmaker on the Bulls.. There's no argument the other way.

Btw, see more MJ myths exposed here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384304)... See many unknown observations on Lebron's game here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384848):
.

I'm not all that familiar with assist %, but you're clinging to a 0.3 differential. It's absurd. That's at best a negligible difference and by no means statistically significant. Given the fact that Pippen's assist totals and per game averages were higher, is it not reasonable to say that Jordan and Pippen shared playmaking responsibilities fairly evenly? Why is that so hard to admit? Also, I'm not sure why you're citing scoring numbers since that's completely irrelevant. In fact, Jordan having more scoring responsibilities is central to MY argument. That is precisely the reason he shared playmaking duties.

I'm a 90's kid and a huge Jordan fan. Nothing I have said paints Jordan in a bad light whatsoever. Jordan himself would say the exact same things.

[DonDadda59]

I really don't see what the counter argument is- the league wasn't trying to make it harder for players/teams to score when they instituted the rule changes in the beginning and middle of the last decade. The people in charge of the changes explicitly told us that the aim was to open up the game more, facilitate more scoring... and that's exactly what happened. Both individual and team scoring went up noticeably from the mid-late 90s.

In '00-'01, the last year before the illegal defense/3-second violation rule changes, the league was averaging 95 PPG on c. 47% eFG. By 2014, with the pace remaining stagnant in the 91-93 range as it had been in the seasons pre changes, the league was averaging 101 PPG on 50% eFG. Teams were scoring more, on better percentages, playing the same exact pace as the pre-rule change era.

During the 90s, only 2 players averaged at least 30 PPG- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only accomplished the feat once.

From '00-'10, 6 different players reached the 30 PPG plateau, 3X as many as the 90s produced... 3 alone in '05-'06 (first season the NBA eliminate hand-checking on the perimeter). All of them were perimeter players and 2 of them- Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant who racked up a combined 6 scoring titles and peaked at the same time with 33 and 35 PPG respectively... were drafted in 1996. Their peak scoring during the 90s was 20-27 PPG.

Following the rule changes, teams scored more on better percentages, individual player PPG (specifically perimeter players) skyrocketed.

The NBA got its wish.

Really... what is there to argue? :biggums:

http://media.giphy.com/media/4lsBBIvwGyTo4/giphy.gif

[mehyaM24]

i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:
Hit em wif that shit dog

[3ball]

I'm not all that familiar with assist %, but you're clinging to a 0.3 differential.


And a 50-100% more scoring..

I actually understated it earlier when I said MJ scored 50-70% more than Pippen... MJ literally DOUBLED Pippen's scoring much of the time, along with assisting on a higher proportion of teammate shots.

Of course, during the first 3-peat, MJ's assist percentage was a whopping 8 points higher (31.1 to 23.3) - SO MJ SCORED TWICE AS MUCH AND ASSISTED 33% MORE... :eek:
.

[sdot_thadon]

And a 50-100% more scoring..

I actually understated it earlier when I said MJ scored 50-70% more than Pippen... MJ literally DOUBLED Pippen's scoring much of the time, along with assisting on a higher proportion of teammate shots.

Of course, during the first 3-peat, MJ's assist percentage was a whopping 8 points higher (31.1 to 23.3) - SO MJ SCORED TWICE AS MUCH AND ASSISTED 33% MORE... :eek:
.
:oldlol: for all that talk about school we can see who failed math bro. I mean assist percentage is already a percentage.

[3ball]

:oldlol: for all that talk about school we can see who failed math bro. I mean assist percentage is already a percentage.
ooooooohhhh... you got me... now you can sleep

[DonDadda59]

i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:

http://media.giphy.com/media/4lsBBIvwGyTo4/giphy.gif