I have a serious question - I want honest answers

[3ball]

Currently, Lebron is the best player in the NBA, or close to it - top 5 for sure.. But let's run an experiment - let's take away Lebron's screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

Let's imagine a scenario where he can't use drive-and-kick as his primary weapon like he does now... Would he still be the best player if he was forced to shoot mostly midrange, post-ups and isolation?

Like, literally - imagine a scenario where Lebron MUST post-up, operate from midrange, and isolate for most of his buckets.. How good would he be?

Of course, this scenario is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make Lebron's preferred screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
.

[20Four]

Currently, Lebron is the best player in the NBA, or close to it - top 5 for sure.

But let's run an experiment - let's take away Lebron's screen-roll/drive-and-kick.. Let's imagine a scenario where he can't use drive-and-kick as his primary weapon like he does now.

Would he still be the best player if he was forced to shoot mostly midrange, post-ups and isolation?..

Like, literally - I want you to imagine a scenario where Lebron MUST post-up, operate from midrange, and isolate for most of his buckets.. How good would he be?
He wouldn't be able to do shit because his shot is so inconsistent and I'm a HUGE leBRONZE fan....imagine the refs called all the stiff arms he used.....he would be more average than he is today...as I said im a HUGE leBRONZE fan...

BTW:

Anybody have gifs of leBRONZE using stiff arms against igoudala?

[3ball]

Anybody have gifs of leBRONZE using stiff arms against igoudala?



That's all Lebron could do - I'll never understand how anyone can watch Lebron's stumbling, bumbling, clumsy moves, and think this guy holds a candle to Jordan.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

[WayOfWade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinqVE0yp4M

[Dr Hawk]

That's all Lebron could do - I'll never understand how anyone can watch Lebron's stumbling, bumbling, clumsy moves, and think this guy holds a candle to Jordan.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif



He doesn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RidonKs]

let's try to figure out how good kareem would be if he had to play on his knees
or how many assists john stockton would have if he could only pass to people under 6'8
do u guys think dwyane wade would still be a legend if he had two left feet?



vexing questions, these....

[lilteapot]

let's try to figure out how good kareem would be if he had to play on his knees
or how many assists john stockton would have if he could only pass to people under 6'8
do u guys think dwyane wade would still be a legend if he had two left feet?



vexing questions, these....
:lol

OP is a waste of life and he deserves cancer.

[Heatles201]

same damn threads every single day.
just make one and update it there this shits annoying

[Megabox!]

Don't take the bait, don't take the bait!!

[RidonKs]

explain again

the absence of d&k

preferably using non mj gifs

i really dont understand and i need ur help

[3ball]

let's try to figure out how good kareem would be if he had to play on his knees


The scenario in the OP is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

In the 80's, Lebron simply wouldn't have teammates that spread the floor with the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick the force it is today.

With drive-and-kick not available in the 80's due to lack of 3-pointers, Lebron would be forced to score via methods he's not elite at - intuitively, if he's forced to score via methods that he's not elite, that would mean he's not an elite player.

[SugarHill]

would superman really be that strong if he was weak? serious question. he's overrated imo

[Gotterdammerung]

How was Elgin Baylor capable of scoring 30 points a game without the advantage of the screen/roll play, especially when he didn't have an accurate jumper beyond 15 feet? :confusedshrug:

[RidonKs]

The scenario in the OP is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

In the 80's, Lebron simply wouldn't have teammates that spread the floor with the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick the force it is today.

With drive-and-kick not available, Lebron would be forced to score via methods he's not elite at - Intuitively, if he's forced to score via methods that he's not elite, that would mean he's not an elite player.
woah bait n switch :eek:

[AnaheimLakers24]

Huge bron fan but i admit he sucks and is small

[3ball]

The scenario in the OP is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

In the 80's, Lebron simply wouldn't have teammates that spread the floor with the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick the force it is today.

With drive-and-kick not available in the 80's due to lack of 3-pointers, Lebron would be forced to score via methods he's not elite at - intuitively, if he's forced to score via methods that he's not elite, that would mean he's not an elite player.




woah bait n switch :eek:


Not at all, you just didn't read the entire OP so you misunderstood the premise.

You must've missed the last paragraph.. I went ahead and re-pasted the last response above.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, taking away Bron's ability to drive and kick would obviously make him a mid-to-long range scorer; his passing wouldn't be anywhere as good either.

He would be waaay less efficient and turnover prone.

Still one of the best in the game, but his impact would be practically cut in half.

[lilteapot]

Yes, taking away Bron's ability to drive and kick would obviously make him a mid-to-long range scorer; his passing wouldn't be anywhere as good either.

He would be waaay less efficient and turnover prone.

Still one of the best in the game, but his impact would be practically cut in half.
How do you gather this? He can make passes anywhere on the court. He makes half-court/full-court/cross-court passes regularly and is excellent pick and roll passer

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you gather this? He can make passes anywhere on the court. He makes half-court/full-court/cross-court passes regularly and is excellent pick and roll passer

Bron is a much better passer when he draws in defenders, though. And this in the half-court.

You take away his ability to drive (not realistic, but OP's premise) - and he would be more turnover prone. Obvious is obvious.

[clipps]

OP: I hope you die jerking off and then your mom finds you.

[lilteapot]

Bron is a much better passer when he draws in defenders, though. And this in the half-court.

You take away his ability to drive (not realistic, but OP's premise) - and he would be more turnover prone. Obvious is obvious.
Well yes.

But what great player hasn't had the ability to drive? It's a retarded premise.

[AirFederer]

As a MJ stan I`ll say that I think Bron would be great in every era. He`ll never pass MJ, but he`s pne of the best on the tier below. He has BBIQ off the chart and is a freak of nature. Lacks mental toughness and finesse (and stats and rings) to be goat, but he`s still great.

[ClipperRevival]

Currently, Lebron is the best player in the NBA, or close to it - top 5 for sure.. But let's run an experiment - let's take away Lebron's screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

Let's imagine a scenario where he can't use drive-and-kick as his primary weapon like he does now... Would he still be the best player if he was forced to shoot mostly midrange, post-ups and isolation?

Like, literally - imagine a scenario where Lebron MUST post-up, operate from midrange, and isolate for most of his buckets.. How good would he be?

Of course, this scenario is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make Lebron's preferred screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
.

Really? :facepalm All these agenda driven threads.

[swagga]

Currently, Lebron is the best player in the NBA, or close to it - top 5 for sure.. But let's run an experiment - let's take away Lebron's screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

Let's imagine a scenario where he can't use drive-and-kick as his primary weapon like he does now... Would he still be the best player if he was forced to shoot mostly midrange, post-ups and isolation?

Like, literally - imagine a scenario where Lebron MUST post-up, operate from midrange, and isolate for most of his buckets.. How good would he be?

Of course, this scenario is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make Lebron's preferred screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
.

so that's why the cavs offense goes through lebron in the post, because his drive and kick game. :rolleyes:

come on son, step up your game :oldlol:

[3ball]

the cavs offense goes through lebron in the post


^^^^^ This is a lie

During the 2015 season, Lebron posted up on 8.6% of his possessions, good for 189th in the league:

(Lebron's stats are on page 3) http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=-1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


His efficiency on the post was 0.86 PPP, good for 171th in the league:

(page 3 again) http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=PPP


Again, Lebron's below-average ability on the aforementioned post-ups, along with midrange (37%) and isolations (33%), means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

[sdot_thadon]

What if we took away op's ability to post about mj vs lebron? Would he be as effective a troll?

[3ball]

Really? :facepalm All these agenda driven threads.


What do you mean "really"??... What I said was factual and based on STATS - I'm not making this stuff up, so don't act like my post is some BS.

The stats prove that Lebron is below-average on post-ups, midrange, and isolations - this means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

This is a completely logical and so far unrefuted argument.

[Mr. Jabbar]

not even the best player with the rules as they are :roll:

[swagga]

^^^^^ This is a lie

During the 2015 season, Lebron posted up on 8.6% of his possessions, good for 189th in the league:

(Lebron's stats are on page 3) http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=-1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


His efficiency on the post was 0.86 PPP, good for 171th in the league:

(page 3 again) http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=PPP


Again, Lebron's below-average ability on the aforementioned post-ups, along with midrange (37%) and isolations (33%), means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

why don't you put his playoff stats? :roll: step your game UP son.

[20Four]

not even the best player with the rules as they are :roll:
Soooo true mang! It sucks because I'm one of the biggest leBRONZE fans and even I think hes top50 of all time...

[3ball]

why don't you show Lebron's playoff stats?


2015 Playoffs - MIDRANGE:

5-9 feet: 27.2%
10-14 feet: 29.2%
15-19 feet: 33.3%
20-24 feet: 34.8%

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs



2015 Playoffs - ISOLATIONS:

Frequency: 32.9% of possessions (1st out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Field Goal Percentage: 33.3% (34th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.70 (36th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP



2015 Playoffs - POST-UPS:


Frequency: 15.1% of possessions (19th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.84 (21st out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP


Field Goal Percentage: 46.3% (14th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Again, Lebron's below-average ability on the aforementioned post-ups, midrange and isolations, means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

[ClipperRevival]

What do you mean "really"??... What I said was factual and based on STATS - I'm not making this stuff up, so don't act like my post is some BS.

The stats prove that Lebron is below-average on post-ups, midrange, and isolations - this means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

This is a completely logical and so far unrefuted argument.

Every player has strengths/weaknesses.

To tell a certain player to play to his weaknesses is pointless. Like asking how good would Shaq or Wilt would have been if they weren't allowed to shoot within 10 feet from the basket. Or telling Magic or CP3 that they can't dominate the ball. Or telling Curry that he can't shoot 3s. Only in a fantasy world does this happen, not in real life. His weaknesses are valid but this scenario will never happen so what's the point?

[3ball]

His weaknesses are valid but this scenario will never happen so what's the point?


The point is that such a scenario WAS the case in the 80's - in the 80's, the 3-point shooting didn't exist to make drive-and-kick worthwhile - that means Lebron would have to have to play to his weaknesses, which means he wouldn't be as good back then, as he is today.

THAT'S the point.

Virtually every elite offensive player in the 80's had elite post, midrange and isolation game... Lebron does not, so he would not be elite back then - again, imagine Lebron having to score his points on the post, midrange and isolation - clearly, he wouldn't be as good.

[senelcoolidge]

He would struggle. He can't even play off the ball as a SF. He's a superstar with many holes in his game.

[ClipperRevival]

The point is that such a scenario WAS the case in the 80's - in the 80's, the 3-point shooting didn't exist to make drive-and-kick worthwhile - that means Lebron would have to have to play to his weaknesses, which means he wouldn't be as good back then, as he is today.

THAT'S the point.

Virtually every elite offensive player in the 80's had elite post, midrange and isolation game... Lebron does not, so he would not be elite back then - again, imagine Lebron having to score his points on the post, midrange and isolation - clearly, he wouldn't be as good.

You can't just transport Bron's game right now to the 80's. That's not how it works. If he had grown up in the 80's, his game would've been based on what was needed for the 80's.

I can grant you that his iso game would've never been all time great stuff given his massive build and lack of quickness to go along with not being great with a live dribble. But I think he would've been a pretty good post player as he showed in 2012. Midrange? Who knows. He's never been a great outside shooter but again, if he works on his midrange, who knows.

[Kblaze8855]

Its never as simple as removing an aspect of someone game if they played another era...

Even ignoring how absurd it is to judge someone off what the might be minus a major aspect of the game...

The 80s would give him as many positive changes as negative.

Nobody could stop Bernard King on the break just off relentlessness. Lebron is bigger, stronger, and faster...by a lot. It would be ridiculous. Back when you could easily run on made baskets and score quickly? Coaches barely seem to have fast break systems anymore. Cotton Fitzsimmons....Doug Moe...Don Nelson...even Hubie to a lesser degree? Teams ran offenses designed for really early drives on the secondary break and off made or missed shots. And teams wouldnt do that much to stop you...just run right back at you.

Lebron would probably run his own version of showtime and just straight up make a mockery of the game on the break the way MJ and Magic did.

The way guys like Gervin feasted off just jogging into good shots on the break:



http://giant.gfycat.com/EasygoingIllegalCopperhead.gif


And that was a totally normal thing. Not even something called attention to.


You could take a made shot and just casually stroll deep into the opposing defense:


http://giant.gfycat.com/BogusAgreeableGander.gif


One rarely discussed aspect of outside shooting is how much earlier it causes the ball handler to be picked up. Defenses now have to get back and setup fully out to 25 feet to avoid transition threes. 80s teams did not get back on defense nearly so hard. Let Lebron gather speed and dont attempt to slow his progress till hes at the top of the key hes putting up 26-28 a game on 58+ shooting even with the other adjustments hed have to make.

All of which disregard that in the 80s....Lebron would be considered an elite 3 point shooter. Not many people then could wet 3s like he can....or at least...they didnt try.

They were mean midrange....but Lebron would have some of the best range on the planet in 1985.

He would be hell making teams either get back hard and clog the lane...or allow him to step into 3s. Teams were not built to defend a player that big and physical...who could also make 28 footers. Lebron made more threes last season than all but one NBA team made in 1985. And only one team shot as well as he did from 3.

He would be so far ahead of his time in his approach...

Lebron would flourish in any game. Whatever he lost he would gain in other areas. You have to go waaaaaaaaaay back before an elite player wouldnt be elite in any time.

[WayOfWade]

Wow, nice post by Kblaze

[sdot_thadon]

Its never as simple as removing an aspect of someone game if they played another era...

Even ignoring how absurd it is to judge someone off what the might be minus a major aspect of the game...

The 80s would give him as many positive changes as negative.

Nobody could stop Bernard King on the break just off relentlessness. Lebron is bigger, stronger, and faster...by a lot. It would be ridiculous. Back when you could easily run on made baskets and score quickly? Coaches barely seem to have fast break systems anymore. Cotton Fitzsimmons....Doug Moe...Don Nelson...even Hubie to a lesser degree? Teams ran offenses designed for really early drives on the secondary break and off made or missed shots. And teams wouldnt do that much to stop you...just run right back at you.

Lebron would probably run his own version of showtime and just straight up make a mockery of the game on the break the way MJ and Magic did.

The way guys like Gervin feasted off just jogging into good shots on the break:



http://giant.gfycat.com/EasygoingIllegalCopperhead.gif


And that was a totally normal thing. Not even something called attention to.


You could take a made shot and just casually stroll deep into the opposing defense:


http://giant.gfycat.com/BogusAgreeableGander.gif


One rarely discussed aspect of outside shooting is how much earlier it causes the ball handler to be picked up. Defenses now have to get back and setup fully out to 25 feet to avoid transition threes. 80s teams did not get back on defense nearly so hard. Let Lebron gather speed and dont attempt to slow his progress till hes at the top of the key hes putting up 26-28 a game on 58+ shooting even with the other adjustments hed have to make.

All of which disregard that in the 80s....Lebron would be considered an elite 3 point shooter. Not many people then could wet 3s like he can....or at least...they didnt try.

They were mean midrange....but Lebron would have some of the best range on the planet in 1985.

He would be hell making teams either get back hard and clog the lane...or allow him to step into 3s. Teams were not built to defend a player that big and physical...who could also make 28 footers. Lebron made more threes last season than all but one NBA team made in 1985. And only one team shot as well as he did from 3.

He would be so far ahead of his time in his approach...

Lebron would flourish in any game. Whatever he lost he would gain in other areas. You have to go waaaaaaaaaay back before an elite player wouldnt be elite in any time.


You can't just transport Bron's game right now to the 80's. That's not how it works. If he had grown up in the 80's, his game would've been based on what was needed for the 80's.

I can grant you that his iso game would've never been all time great stuff given his massive build and lack of quickness to go along with not being great with a live dribble. But I think he would've been a pretty good post player as he showed in 2012. Midrange? Who knows. He's never been a great outside shooter but again, if he works on his midrange, who knows.

Great points fellas.:applause: :applause:

[warriorfan]

Its never as simple as removing an aspect of someone game if they played another era...

Even ignoring how absurd it is to judge someone off what the might be minus a major aspect of the game...

The 80s would give him as many positive changes as negative.

Nobody could stop Bernard King on the break just off relentlessness. Lebron is bigger, stronger, and faster...by a lot. It would be ridiculous. Back when you could easily run on made baskets and score quickly? Coaches barely seem to have fast break systems anymore. Cotton Fitzsimmons....Doug Moe...Don Nelson...even Hubie to a lesser degree? Teams ran offenses designed for really early drives on the secondary break and off made or missed shots. And teams wouldnt do that much to stop you...just run right back at you.

Lebron would probably run his own version of showtime and just straight up make a mockery of the game on the break the way MJ and Magic did.

The way guys like Gervin feasted off just jogging into good shots on the break:



http://giant.gfycat.com/EasygoingIllegalCopperhead.gif


And that was a totally normal thing. Not even something called attention to.


You could take a made shot and just casually stroll deep into the opposing defense:


http://giant.gfycat.com/BogusAgreeableGander.gif


One rarely discussed aspect of outside shooting is how much earlier it causes the ball handler to be picked up. Defenses now have to get back and setup fully out to 25 feet to avoid transition threes. 80s teams did not get back on defense nearly so hard. Let Lebron gather speed and dont attempt to slow his progress till hes at the top of the key hes putting up 26-28 a game on 58+ shooting even with the other adjustments hed have to make.

All of which disregard that in the 80s....Lebron would be considered an elite 3 point shooter. Not many people then could wet 3s like he can....or at least...they didnt try.

They were mean midrange....but Lebron would have some of the best range on the planet in 1985.

He would be hell making teams either get back hard and clog the lane...or allow him to step into 3s. Teams were not built to defend a player that big and physical...who could also make 28 footers. Lebron made more threes last season than all but one NBA team made in 1985. And only one team shot as well as he did from 3.

He would be so far ahead of his time in his approach...

Lebron would flourish in any game. Whatever he lost he would gain in other areas. You have to go waaaaaaaaaay back before an elite player wouldnt be elite in any time.

I agree with your thoughts about LeBron feasting in transition but not about his 3 point range. LeBron isn't that good of a shooter and he wouldn't be practicing 3 point bombs nor be encouraged to by his coaches. Better shooters than LeBron were put on a shorter leash than him in that time period when it came to the 3 point shot. I just don't think LeBron would of developed a 3 point game if he grew up in the early 70's.

[Kblaze8855]

Once you go into what hed be if he actually grew up in the 70s there is no point.

70s Lebron would be nothing the least bit like he is.

As he is now....he would be an elite outside shooter in the 80s. If we are taking or giving skills and making assumptions...whole other guy.

Hed be closer to a Malone/Kemp type without the Magics and Jordans to inspire him to play a different game.

Kevin Durant would be a skinny ass center in 1973. Larue Martin type.

[mehyaM24]

kblaze is 100% spot on

its why i've repeatedly noted defenses in the 80s and 90s werent as prevalent or talked about. you had the pistons and a few others - but thats literally it.


hell, the pistons gave up the same ppg as middle of the pack defenses today.


just look at what larry, ainge and byron scott said about defense in their era


'Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically and admit defense is emphasized more today.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."


you saw a 19 year old kobe take jordan to school in the gifs i've posted.


iverson in, what, his second season (?) making jordan look like a statue.


jordan is always going to be revered, but perimeter players and defenses are better today. its that simple.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I agree with your thoughts about LeBron feasting in transition but not about his 3 point range. LeBron isn't that good of a shooter and he wouldn't be practicing 3 point bombs nor be encouraged to by his coaches. Better shooters than LeBron were put on a shorter leash than him in that time period when it came to the 3 point shot. I just don't think LeBron would of developed a 3 point game if he grew up in the early 70's.
His last four years he's shot 36%, 40.6%, 37.9%, and 35.4%. He was also one of the best in the league on catch and shoot 3s in 2013 and 2014. He'd certainly be a big 3 point threat in old eras

[3ball]

You can't just transport Bron's game right now to the 80's. That's not how it works. If he had grown up in the 80's, his game would've been based on what was needed for the 80's.

I can grant you that his iso game would've never been all time great stuff given his massive build and lack of quickness to go along with not being great with a live dribble.


It's absolutely fair to transport Lebron's current game to the 80's, because you can do it for MJ's game to today's era... Unlike Lebron's game in the 80's, MJ was elite in the crucial areas needed to be an elite wing scorer in today's game.

To be an elite wing scorer in today's game, a player needs to be elite in the primary ballhandler role, so they can initiate the screen-roll/drive-and-kick that every team's offense is based on.. Well, we know MJ is elite in that capacity - by now, we're all aware of his 24 game stretch at PG where he averaged 30/9/11/51 including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Otoh, to be an elite wing scorer in the 80's (or any kind of scorer), you had to be elite on the post, midrange and 1-on-1 moves - these are all areas where Lebron is not elite.. Transition wouldn't be enough to offset the bad halfcourt game Lebron would have without the 3-pointers necessary to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

[warriorfan]

His last four years he's shot 36%, 40.6%, 37.9%, and 35.4%. He was also one of the best in the league on catch and shoot 3s in 2013 and 2014. He'd certainly be a big 3 point threat in old eras

You are missing what I said. I said if he played in the 80's that means he would have grown up in the late 60's and early 70's. There wasn't even a 3 point line back then. LeBron would of been a huge guy like he has always been and he would be handling the ball still but just taking it close and scoring around the rim. There would be no use for a powerful guy like him that shoots 75% free throws to start drifting out 20+ feet out and launching it. He would never develop a long range shot.

[sdot_thadon]

It's absolutely fair to transport Lebron's current game to the 80's, because you can do it for MJ's game to today's era... Unlike Lebron's game in the 80's, MJ was elite in the crucial areas needed to be an elite wing scorer in today's game.

To be an elite wing scorer in today's game, a player needs to be elite in the primary ballhandler role, so they can initiate the screen-roll/drive-and-kick that every team's offense is based on.. Well, we know MJ is elite in that capacity - by now, we're all aware of his 24 game stretch at PG where he averaged 30/9/11/51 including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Otoh, to be an elite wing scorer in the 80's (or any kind of scorer), you had to be elite on the post, midrange and 1-on-1 moves - these are all areas where Lebron is not elite.. Transition wouldn't be enough to offset the bad halfcourt game Lebron would have without the 3-pointers necessary to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
OK so with these "guidelines" in place what kblaze posted is absolutely relevant then. Lebron would lose some things and gain some as well.

Elephant in the room you'll avoid like the plague is exactly how Mj would be impacted by transporting his game the same way. For starters he wouldn't be as impactful a defender without being able to use his hands as much and if you thought a.i. Shook him one of these young guys with even crazier handles would do him even worse. Now, that's not to say he'd no longer be an elite defender. But he'd definitely be at a disadvantage defensively compared to what he was used to.

Offensively, he'd still be an elite threat. But transport his game raw into today's game and he'd also have an issue because of his range and the imortance of it in the modern game. I hear so much about how they'd never give him space to shoot, when that's exactly how coaches would roll the dice and play him. They'd back off and play him for the drive, his most dangerous attribute. He'd post some but if we're keeping it 100 he's not posting every play for entire games, he didn't play that way in his prime.

Let's also not discount the fact that the handchecking era benefited him a ton on offense as well. With less hands on defense he can't play his patented hands on offense to get extra advantages against the defense. A highly unspoken and underrated part of his skillset.

Also today's schemes for better or worse are aimed at preventing Jordan type players from being in comfort zones on the floor. So basically the coverage he'd likely see would be focused on keeping him on the outside and crowding him anywhere closer than that. There will be film watched and broken down, he'll be sent to his least efficient spots and directions by the better coached teams. It's the nature of today's game. Ultimately he'd be fine and still the best or no worse than 2nd best player in the league, but his game would also need adjustments to succeed in this era at the same clip.

[AintNoSunshine]

Let say if Hordan is not allowed to put the ball in the basket, would he still be a good scorer? Yea Thats what I thought, he sucks

[3ball]

The 80s would give him as many positive changes as negative.

Lebron would probably run make a mockery of the game on the break the way MJ and Magic did.


:rolleyes: ... Your claim that Lebron would be like MJ and Magic by crushing the transition game in the 80's, doesn't exclude him from needing an elite halfcourt game to be considered an elite offensive player back then.

There's never been a player in history that was considered an elite offensive player without an elite halfcourt game.. In the 80's, without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick a viable option, Magic and MJ needed elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 ability to be elite offensive players.. Unfortunately, we know for a fact that Lebron isn't elite in any of these areas, so he wouldn't be elite offensively in the 80's.

Also, apparently, you didn't calculate the math on this one..

I'm sure you think today's game is mostly halfcourt right?... Well, so was the 80's - pace was between 99-103 the entire 80's, which is between 6-10% faster than today's game (93.9)... That means the 80's was still mostly halfcourt and Lebron would still need to take most of his shots in the halfcourt.

More importantly, the playoffs is ALWAYS a slow game, regardless of era.. In the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, pace was 94.0 each year, which is LESS THAN today's 94.4.. In each playoffs of the 1980's, pace was either ahead or within 6% of today's 94.4 playoff pace.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/A8fnJo.gif


Defenses now have to get back and setup fully out to 25 feet to avoid transition threes.



You make a good point here - today's defenders must run to the 3-point line in transition.. But this frees up the middle of the floor/paint area.. Otoh, in previous eras, the paint frequently remained crowded in transition, because defenders ran to the paint instead of the 3-point line like today (see the MJ gif above - even though it was transition, defenders ran to the paint, so the shot was still heavily contested).

The need for today's defenders to hug the 3-point line in transition is no different from today's halfcourt sets, where 3-point shooters draw defenders out of the paint to the perimeter.. The open paint created by 3-point shooting is a boon to quick perimeter players who now have the opportunity to beat everyone to the open paint, which happens all the time.





George Gervin used to feast in transition


So does Lebron in today's game - look at his 134 dunks from 2014 - the vast majority are wide open and in transition... Only 3 posters the entire year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


Btw, keep in mind that two-pointer basketball simply plays faster - obviously we all know that it's standard for players to take heavily-contested shots at the rim and from midrange.. So when a team is only taking 2-pointers, they don't run as much offense to get open shots - they just run up and down and take contested shot after contested shot.. The pace is faster, but the shots are actually more contested.. That's why it was a better brand of basketball - faster pace, with higher shot-making ability needed to be a good player.

Otoh, today's game is slowed down by offenses designed to get open 3-pointers and the resulting spacing... Spacing allows teams to move the ball for open shots, which means players don't need the midrange touch and moves to make contested shots - they can get away with developing inferior skill sets (3-and-D, as opposed to the more sophisticated 1-on-1, midrange repertoire, and post ability).





Previous eras would let Lebron gather speed and dont attempt to slow his progress till hes at the top of the key


In today's game, Lebron's standard is to WALK the ball up, usually with no one pressuring him.. The notion that teams stop his "progress" is ridiculous - he gets to dilly-dally all day at the top of the key standing straight up and practically tapping his foot while he waits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V68Eg_bJBtY&t=0m1s


He's almost never bent over and turning his back to the defender to protect the ball like ALL previous era guards had to do... Remember, today's era bans hand-checking - this prevents defenders from constantly leaning on the ballhandler and stopping his progress like previous eras did.. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that picking a guy up sooner is some sort of modern invention... Teams have been full-court pressing, halfcourt trapping, and playing pressure defense since the game was invented - and hand-checking and leaning on ballhandlers.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif


Previous eras would let Lebron gather speed until hes at the top of the key



When Lebron has the ball at the top of the key in the 80's, the only difference from today's game is that Lebron would see a crowded paint, rather than today's open paint with defenders on the perimeter.. In previous eras, there were often too many people in the paint for a penetrator to even TRY to get in there - pulling up for midrange was mandatory and standard (see gif above).






Teams were not built to defend a player that big and physical...


They were more equipped - the game was far MORE physical and teams didn't have to guard the 3-point line, so they could spend more time in the paint.. There were more shot-blocking centers and big, rough forwards back then.

Karl Malone, Otis Thorpe, Barkley, Oakley - the physicality of these guys dwarfs Lebron's... These guys were allowed to play FAR more physical back then - this is a fact - so your claim that previous eras wouldn't know how to deal with Lebron's modern "physicality" is utterly insane... The game is LESS physical today - those are the rules and that's how guys play.. Everyone thinks today's game is much softer - it's the CONSENSUS.





He would be so far ahead of his time with his approach.


Lebron's "approach" is drive-and-kick.. That's his approach.. That's what he does more than anything else he does - however, the lack of 3-pointers meant drive-and-kick wasn't a viable option for him in the 80's.

So what "approach" have you invented for him to have??.. That he'd be great in transition?.. Again, your claim that Lebron would be like MJ and Magic by crushing the transition game in the 80's, doesn't exclude him from needing an elite halfcourt game to be considered an elite offensive player back then.

There's never been a player in history that was considered an elite offensive player without an elite halfcourt game.. In the 80's, without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick a viable option, Magic and MJ needed elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 ability to be elite offensive players.. Unfortunately, we know for a fact that Lebron isn't elite in any of these areas, so he wouldn't be elite offensively in the 80's.

So what's the "approach" you're talking about?... Him shooting threes????... Nothing more than he does today - I'm not sure what you're point is here.. He'd shoot 4-5 threes at about 34-35%, and most of his shots would still be 2-pointers, just like today.. Also, he wouldn't be guarded as tightly behind the arc as Bird, Reggie Miller, or Dale Ellis, or even MJ for that matter.. So you have no point here - his own personal 3-point shooting would not be a factor.

The relevant factor is that none of his teammates would be shooting any threes, so he wouldn't have the 3-pointers needed to do screen-roll/drive-and-kick - THAT's his "approach" that you speak of.. Without drive-and-kick, he would need to rely on his post, midrange and 1-on-1 game like everyone else.. He's not elite in these areas, so he wouldn't be as good as a lot fo guys offensively.





Lebron would flourish in any game. Whatever he lost he would gain in other areas.


Again, not enough - pace was only 6% to 10% faster in the 80's and not faster AT ALL in the playoffs... So the majority of his shots would be in the halfcourt, where his lack of elite post, midrange and isolation ability would preclude him from being an elite player back then.. :confusedshrug:
.

[TripleA]

Is Clyde drexler elite than Lebron would be as good as him at the very least?

[raprap]

The game is different back then. If you think Bron can't adjust to the game in the 80's then you're an ignorant hater.

[3ball]

MJ's lack of 3-point shooting would hurt him today, since 3-point shooting has much importance in today's game


In 2009, Wade led the league in scoring by averaging 30 ppg on 49%, yet he wasn't a 3-point threat at all... Also, Westbrook and Monta Ellis are horrible 3-point shooters, yet they are elite offensive wings.. This destroys your argument.. 3-point shooting is not needed to be an elite offensive wing in today's game.

However, elite primary ballhandler ability IS required to be an elite wing in today's game - Wade, Westbrook and Ellis are all elite primary ballhandlers.. Obviously, we know MJ had those skills too - we all know what his goat PG stats are.

Otoh, Lebron is not elite at the things needed to be an elite offensive player in the 80's.. Pace was only 6% to 10% faster in the 80's - so most of his shots would be in the halfcourt... Accordingly, he would need elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 skills just like EVERY OTHER elite offensive player back then.





Offensively, MJ would still be an elite threat


In MJ's prime, he was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks each year as Westbrook - this is not an exaggerration (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11685511&postcount=109).. Westbrook simply isn't physically capable of doing most of the things MJ did - the first 3 posts on this page show gifs of plays that Westbrook can't do:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4


Otoh, there is no shot Westbrook has made that MJ can't do, and make look EASY - MJ made Westbrook's shots look so easy, you don't realize it's the same thing Westbrook did... Even as a 35 year old in 1998, MJ got 89 dunks, which is almost twice what Westbrook's season high is (52)... :eek:... Can Westbrook match 35-year old MJ on this play (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/GGVBbQ.gif)??... **** no.. Of course, it's not just the inferior physical capability - there's also a massive chasm in smarts and shooting ability too.





today's schemes are aimed at preventing Jordan type players from being in comfort zones on the floor.


Pure made-up bullshit... What was the Warriors' strategy to stop Lebron's clearouts in the 2015 Finals???... There wasn't anything they could do other than overt double-teams to get the ball out of his hands, which they opted not to do.

What do teams do against Harden or Lebron's high screen-roll???... Not a damn thing - they run that play into the ground and get easy penetration off it all day long.. The reality is that defenses don't force these guys to do shit - instead, the insane spacing of today's game allows Lebron and Harden to run screen-roll and isolations for over 50% of their possessions:

isolation stats for all players: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
screen-roll as ballhandler stats: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


So teams aren't forcing these guys to do shit - you made that up - it's a cute-sounding narrative that's popular among new fans that has zero basis in reality... The reality is that screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the standard for today's offenses, which would require MJ to be the primary ballhandler much more often.. Of course, we've seen what happens when MJ is the primary ballhandler - he averages 30/9/11 on 51% and becomes the biggest triple-double machine we've seen since Oscar.
.

[sdot_thadon]

In 2009, Wade led the league in scoring by averaging 30 ppg on 49%, yet he wasn't a 3-point threat at all... Also, Westbrook and Monta Ellis are horrible 3-point shooters, yet they are elite offensive wings.. This destroys your argument.. 3-point shooting is not needed to be an elite offensive wing in today's game.
Wasn't 2009 6 years ago? Point still stands. Without range his efficiency will suffer in today's game. And to be clear I'm not talking a nose dive, just a tangible difference.


However, elite primary ballhandler ability IS required to be an elite wing in today's game - Wade, Westbrook and Ellis are all elite primary ballhandlers.. Obviously, we know MJ had those skills too - we all know what his goat PG stats are.
We all know his record too don't we?


Otoh, Lebron is not elite at the things needed to be an elite offensive player in the 80's.. Pace was only 6% to 10% faster in the 80's - so most of his shots would be in the halfcourt... Accordingly, he would need elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 skills just like EVERY OTHER elite offensive player back then.
Kblaze already set this bull on fire and stomped it out. Defense was more lax then and it'd open up more early offense opportunity for him. Remember your stipulations were dropping him right in with his current game. He'd push the ball often, he'd post some. He'd shoot 3s. As a volume 3 point shooter he'd kill it in the 80's because they wouldn't play anyone for that many shots, 90's either.



In MJ's prime, he was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks each year as Westbrook.. Westbrook simply isn't physically capable of doing most of the things MJ did - the first 3 posts on this page show gifs of plays that Westbrook can't do:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4


Otoh, there is no shot Westbrook has made that MJ can't do, and make look EASY - MJ made Westbrook's shots look so easy, you don't realize it's the same thing Westbrook did... Even as a 35 year old in 1998, MJ got 89 dunks, which is almost twice what Westbrook's season high is (52)... :eek:... Can Westbrook match 35-year old MJ on this play??... **** no..
Have no idea what this has to do with Mj aside from westbrook shooting far poorer percentages despite being a "smaller Mj".




Pure made-up bullshit... What was the Warriors' strategy to stop Lebron's clearouts in the 2015 Finals???... There wasn't anything they could do other than overt double-teams to get the ball out of his hands, which they opted not to do.

What do teams do to stop Harden or Lebron's high screen-roll???... Not a damn thing - they runs that play into the ground and get easy penetration off it all day long.. The reality is that defenses don't force these guys to do shit - instead, the insane spacing of today's game allows Lebron and Harden to run screen-roll and isolations for over 50% of their possessions:

isolation stats for all players: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
screen-roll as ballhandler stats: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


So teams aren't forcing these guys to do shit - you made that up - it's a cute-sounding narrative that's popular among new fans that has zero basis in reality... The reality is that screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the standard for today's offenses, which would require MJ to be the primary ballhandler much more often..
See this is where you go retard again. The way the Warriors played him was a strategic choice. Different coaches have different philosophy, I wouldn't expect you to know that though. I know you watched the way the spurs played him in different finals matchups, you were trolling other forums at that time. The 2 players you brought up coincidentally both make teams make a choice on what they are willing to give up.

Of course, we've seen what happens when MJ is the primary ballhandler - he averages 30/9/11 on 51% and becomes the biggest triple-double machine we've seen since Oscar.
.
Yeah we have seen what happens....a shit record.

Mj having limited range also gives the defense more options to deal with him as well. One last time, don't be an idiot bro. Nobody said Mj wouldn't be great, just he'd be different.

[3ball]

If you think Bron can't adjust to the game in the 80's then you're an ignorant hater.


You're right bro - I'm sure EVERY player from today's game could adjust their game to the 80's and be the exact same player they are today... :rolleyes:

Time to accept reality - you can't just wave a magic wand and all of a sudden Lebron ISN'T a career 37% midrange shooter anymore.

That's not how it works.. We're considering how Lebron's current game AS IS would fit into previous eras - so his 37% shooting would follow him to the 80's, and it would prevent him from being an elite scorer because virtually EVERY elite scorer back then was elite from midrange - elite midrange was necessary because it was a primary option in the absence of the 3-point shooting necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically viable.
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

3ball, just out of curiosity, where do you rank LeBron all time? It sounds like you really think he's like in the 20-30 range at best considering you think just about any 90s star player is better than him along with other star players of the 2000s.

Also, where do you rank Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem? Honestly, just post your top 10. Don't want to argue with you, I'm just curious how you rank everyone.

[J Shuttlesworth]

BTW, I think one thing that you guys forget is that if players today were growing up in the 60s/70s, they would be practicing a lot different than they are these days. Players would be practicing more mid range game, and less long 3 game. In todays game, lots of teams get by without shooting a lot of mid range jumpers. The Warriors play style was heavy on three point shooting along with lots of fast break buckets. 2012/2013 Heat were pretty similar too.

If these guys were playing in the 80s, they'd have practiced a much different game. If LeBron was playing perimeter/PG in those days, he probably wouldn't be working as much on his three point shot. He'd be shooting mid range jumpers instead

[3ball]

Wasn't 2009 six years ago? Point still stands. Without range his efficiency will suffer in today's game.


So MJ would destroy in 2009 (as Wade did), but he'd struggle in 2015?... As usual, your arguments are pretty weak.

Also, Westbrook led the league in scoring THIS YEAR and he's a bad 3-point shooter.. MJ was a 6'6" version of him, with far physical caability, while also having far better shooting and smarts - Westbrook tore up the NBA in 2015, so obviously, MJ would've done much better.





We all know MJ's record during his point guard stretch too don't we?


He had a 0.542 winning percentage (13-11), which is essentially the same as the 0.573 winning percentage for the as the season as a whole (47-35).

However, during the 24 game stretch, they played teams that averaged 45 wins, which is more than the 40 wins their opponents averaged the rest of the season.. The list of teams MJ played during the 24 game stretch and their win totals is shown here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11671458&postcount=15





Kblaze already set this bull on fire and stomped it out.


Kblaze didn't say shit - I destroyed every point he made... Go read my response to him.





He'd push the ball often, he'd post some. He'd shoot 3s.


The shot profile you outlined above doesn't include what he's elite at - drive-and-kick.. So therefore, your shot profile of 3-pointers, transition, and post-ups MAKES HIM WORSE THAN TODAY... and that's my whole point.

You say he'd post up more - but the stats prove he's AVERAGE at post-ups - he's not elite at this.. Lebron posting up isn't as good as him driving-and-kicking.. So your shot profile is WORSE, which is why he'd be a worse player back then.

As for 3-pointers and transitions - Lebron would score 4-5 points per game on 3-pointers (just like today) and he'd get 6-10% more transition in regular season (due to faster pace) - these things aren't enough to make him elite - most of his shots would still need to be halfcourt 2-pointers.

And again - in the playoffs, the game always slows down - pace was the same in the 80's as it is today - pace was 94.0 in 1988, compared to 94.4 in 2015 playoffs.. So Lebron wouldn't get any extra transition in the playoffs, which would further magnify his halfcourt weaknesses.





As a volume 3 point shooter he'd kill it in the 80's because they wouldn't play anyone for that many shots, 90's either.


See, you just made this up, just like the Kblaze post that I destroyed.

You just said that teams wouldn't guard a volume 3-point shooter in the 80's or 90's... Why not???... Was there a rule against it?... How did they guard Reggie Miller and Dale Ellis????... But somehow in your eyes, once a guy to got 5 attempts teams would stop guarding him.. Unbelievable.. :roll:






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


The way the Warriors played him was a strategic choice (in other words, they had other options)



This is factually incorrect - there is no way to defend the type of extreme clearouts Lebron got in the Finals (shown above), other than to overtly double-team or stay at home.

If one of the defenders on the far weakside even fakes like he's going to come over and help, the spacing makes it so obvious that Lebron can easily toss the ball to the wide open player.. Today's spacing puts defenses in a quandry where they can't do shit without making a huge compromise, so your idea that defenses "force" guys to do certain things is horseshit.





today's schemes are aimed at preventing Jordan type players from being in comfort zones on the floor.


Again - this is horseshit - not only did Lebron's extreme clearouts in the Finals show how much freedom the spacing allows, but look at Harden and Lebron's incessant screen-roll penetration - teams are powerless to prevent these plays.. The insane spacing of today's game allows Lebron and Harden to run screen-roll and isolations for over 50% of their possessions[/COLOR][/I]:

isolation stats for all players: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
screen-roll as ballhandler stats: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


So teams aren't forcing these guys to do shit - you made that up - it's a cute-sounding narrative that's popular among new fans that has zero basis in reality... The reality is that screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the standard for today's offenses, which would require MJ to be the primary ballhandler much more often.. Of course, we've seen what happens when MJ is the primary ballhandler - he averages 30/9/11 on 51% and becomes the biggest triple-double machine we've seen since Oscar.





Mj having limited range also gives the defense more options to deal with him as well. One last time, don't be an idiot bro. Nobody said Mj wouldn't be great, just he'd be different.


Defenses would have the same options of guarding MJ as they have guarding Westbrook... And Westbrook destroyed the league in 2015... Since MJ was superior physically, mentally, and a far better shooter, he would destroy the league even more - but keep looking like a fool by saying MJ would somehow have trouble in today's game.. :rolleyes:





Have no idea what this has to do with Mj aside from westbrook shooting far poorer percentages despite being a "smaller Mj".


It has to do with MJ because Westbrook destroyed the league in 2015, so based on that, we know MJ would've done far better.. MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook, with far greater physical capability, smarts, and shooting ability.

MJ got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks each year as Westbrook - this is not an exaggerration (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11685511&postcount=109).. Westbrook simply isn't physically capable of doing most of the things MJ did - the first 3 posts on this page show gifs of plays that Westbrook can't do:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4


Even as a 35 year old MJ got 89 dunks in 1998, which is almost twice Westbrook's season high (52).. :eek:.. Can Westbrook match 35-year old MJ on this play (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/GGVBbQ.gif)??... Hell no.. Of course, it's not just the inferior physical capability - there's also a massive chasm in smarts and shooting ability too.. Given how much Westbrook dominates, it's mind-boggling to think how much more MJ would won the league.
.

[warriorfan]

BTW, I think one thing that you guys forget is that if players today were growing up in the 60s/70s, they would be practicing a lot different than they are these days. Players would be practicing more mid range game, and less long 3 game. In todays game, lots of teams get by without shooting a lot of mid range jumpers. The Warriors play style was heavy on three point shooting along with lots of fast break buckets. 2012/2013 Heat were pretty similar too.

If these guys were playing in the 80s, they'd have practiced a much different game. If LeBron was playing perimeter/PG in those days, he probably wouldn't be working as much on his three point shot. He'd be shooting mid range jumpers instead

The problem with that is that LeBron is a 75% free throw shooter. What that tells us is that LeBron is just not that talented of a shooter. I don't think he would of developed a money midrange game in any era. LeBron has and always will rely on his strength and size for his buckets. I don't know if there are any 75% free throw shooters who have good mid range games.

Players who have scored 20 ppg and shot 75% free throws or worse. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ft_pct&c1comp=lt&c1val=75&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

If you notice something about this list, there aren't any midrange assassins listed.

[3ball]

3ball, just out of curiosity, where do you rank LeBron all time? It sounds like you really think he's like in the 20-30 range at best considering you think just about any 90s star player is better than him along with other star players of the 2000s.

Also, where do you rank Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem? Honestly, just post your top 10. Don't want to argue with you, I'm just curious how you rank everyone.


My Top 10

Bill Russell
MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Oscar
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem


I put Bill Russell #1 because I never know where to put him, and I figure he had to deal with a lot of amazing racist bullshit and he handled it with class and grace... And here's why I go with Kobe over Hakeem and Duncan (Duncan is #11) - I went with Kobe over Hakeem because Hakeem benefited from the Bulls breaking up temporarily - that's actually kinda huge.. And Duncan's silent leadership style was ineffective in preventing the USA from losing in international play in the mid-2000's... I knock him majorly for this - I remember watching him not do shit - Kobe would've shaken things up and the team would've been different.. I mean, it's pretty close with all these guys, so something has to tip the scales.

As for Lebron, I put him outside of the top 15 - there are several aspects of his game that make me cringe - I don't like how teams exploit him by LETTING him go 1-on-1 and I don't like how teams exploit him by LETTING him shoot jumpers... These things aren't a big deal if we're comparing Lebron to Scottie Pippen or James Worthy, but they're criminal if we're comparing him to anyone in the top 15.. A team should never think "Okay... We're going to win by letting Lebron go 1-on-1"... Or, "We'll win by letting him shoot wide open jumpers"... That's just, like... I mean... I don't know what to say.

Also, people don't realize how important midrange ability is - midrange encompasses MOST of the halfcourt area inside 25 feet - it covers a massive range of moves and type of shots - more than anywhere else on the court.. And you can't get 27 shot attempts per game on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.. His poor midrange also means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when midrange was a primary option in the absence of the 3-point shooting needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile.. These two critiques are both highly substantive, and damning.

[Sarcastic]

Modern era is weak. Anyone that has watched basketball for the past few decades knows this.

Lebron is still an all time great though. You have to measure players vs their peers, not against time. This is why Wilt and Russell are still all time greats.

[3ball]

The problem with that is that LeBron is a 75% free throw shooter. What that tells us is that LeBron is just not that talented of a shooter. I don't think he would of developed a money midrange game in any era. LeBron has and always will rely on his strength and size for his buckets. I don't know if there are any 75% free throw shooters who have good mid range games.

Players who have scored 20 ppg and shot 75% free throws or worse. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ft_pct&c1comp=lt&c1val=75&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

If you notice something about this list, there aren't any midrange assassins listed.
Wow.. Nice find.. That's a good idea to correlate FT percentage with midrange ability.

[3ball]

Modern era is weak. Anyone that has watched basketball for the past few decades knows this.

Lebron is still an all time great though. You have to measure players vs their peers, not against time.


For the purposes of this thread, I'm only considering how the current Lebron would do - AS IS - in the 80's.. This benefits Jordan comparisons because the areas necessary to be elite in the 80's are Lebron's weak areas.. Otoh, MJ was elite in the areas necessary to be elite in today's game (primary ballhandler, as needed to drive-and-kick, the foundation of every team's offense).

And 3-point shooting isn't necessary to be a great scorer in today's game - guys like 2015 Westbrook and 2009 Wade led the league in scoring while being bad 3-point shooters.. So MJ was better suited for today's game, than Lebron is for the 80's.
.

[bdreason]

This isn't a serious question. It's a retarded hypothetical question.

[Kobe_6/8]

Would the Bulls have won from 91-93 & 96-98 if Jordan was the 'smallest' man in the entire locker room?

[3ball]

Would the Bulls have won from 91-93 & 96-98 if Jordan was the 'smallest' man in the entire locker room?


And for the purposes of this thread, we've only been considering how the current Lebron would do - AS IS - in the 80's.. This benefits Jordan comparisons because the areas necessary to be elite in the 80's are Lebron's weak areas.. Otoh, MJ was elite in the areas necessary to be elite in today's game (primary ballhandler, as needed to drive-and-kick, the foundation of every team's offense).

Btw, 3-point shooting isn't necessary to be a great scorer in today's game - guys like 2015 Westbrook and 2009 Wade led the league in scoring while being bad 3-point shooters.. So MJ was better suited for today's game, than Lebron is for the 80's.
.

[3ball]

This isn't a serious question. It's a retarded hypothetical question.



It's not retarded to consider how Lebron would do in the 80's... It's useful for player comparisons, especially when the stats are so clearcut in showing that Lebron's weaknesses are all areas required of great scorers in the 80's:


Lebron 2015 Playoffs - MIDRANGE:

5-9 feet: 27.2%
10-14 feet: 29.2%
15-19 feet: 33.3%
20-24 feet: 34.8%

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs



2015 Playoffs - ISOLATIONS:

Frequency: 32.9% of possessions (1st out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Field Goal Percentage: 33.3% (34th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.70 (36th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP



2015 Playoffs - POST-UPS:


Frequency: 15.1% of possessions (19th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.84 (21st out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP


Field Goal Percentage: 46.3% (14th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Again, Lebron's below-average ability on the aforementioned post-ups, midrange and isolations, means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
.

[bdreason]

If LeBron were raised in the 70's he would have been coached differently, and would have developed a different skill-set. That's why your 'serious question' is really just hypothetical bullshit. It's no different than the clowns who say Wilt couldn't play in the modern era based on the skill-set he developed in the 50's.

With LeBron's size, strength, speed, and bball IQ he would have been a complete monster in any era. In fact, with LeBron's handle and size, I believe his game is actually more suited for a league that doesn't emphasize long-range shooting. In the 1980's NBA, LeBron James would have been Magic Johnson... maybe better.

[G0ATbe]

35% shooter at best against quality teams. He'd be a lot more passive too, not much different from current Wiggins as an overall player.

[juju151111]

You're right bro - I'm sure EVERY player from today's game could adjust their game to the 80's and be the exact same player they are today... :rolleyes:

Time to accept reality - you can't just wave a magic wand and all of a sudden Lebron ISN'T a career 37% midrange shooter anymore.

That's not how it works.. We're considering how Lebron's current game AS IS would fit into previous eras - so his 37% shooting would follow him to the 80's, and it would prevent him from being an elite scorer because virtually EVERY elite scorer back then was elite from midrange - elite midrange was necessary because it was a primary option in the absence of the 3-point shooting necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically viable.
.
6 years ago? How is that long ago and what has change in terms of rules since then? So your saying 09 Wade would struggle today? Bro are you retarded

[sdot_thadon]

So MJ would destroy in 2009 (as Wade did), but he'd struggle in 2015?... As usual, your arguments are pretty weak.
Again 2009 and 2015 are 6 years apart. That's 6 more seasons of strategy fine tuning 3ball. Not gigantic and fundamental changes but nuances that make some of the tactics more effective. You can't be this slow.
Here it is translated to dumbass for you 2009/=2015.


Also, Westbrook led the league in scoring THIS YEAR and he's a bad 3-point shooter.. MJ was a 6'6" version of him, with far physical caability, while also having far better shooting and smarts - Westbrook tore up the NBA in 2015, so obviously, MJ would've done much better.
I enjoy Russ alot but it's no secret his season was a controversial talking point. Some felt his efficiency didn't make it all that special, some only cared about his totals. So you're basically bastardizing your god here.



He had a 0.542 winning percentage (13-11), which is essentially the same as the 0.573 winning percentage for the as the season as a whole (47-35).

However, during the 24 game stretch, they played teams that averaged 45 wins, which is more than the 40 wins their opponents averaged the rest of the season.. The list of teams MJ played during the 24 game stretch and their win totals is shown here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11671458&postcount=15

A sub 50 win club.:sleeping


Kblaze didn't say shit - I destroyed every point he made... Go read my response to him.
He actually probably had the best post in your thread and saved it for you. You didn't destroy shit except for more of your precious few braincells.



The shot profile you outlined above doesn't include what he's elite at - drive-and-kick.. So therefore, your shot profile of 3-pointers, transition, and post-ups MAKES HIM WORSE THAN TODAY... and that's my whole point.

You say he'd post up more - but the stats prove he's AVERAGE at post-ups - he's not elite at this.. Lebron posting up isn't as good as him driving-and-kicking.. So your shot profile is WORSE, which is why he'd be a worse player back then.

As for 3-pointers and transitions - Lebron would score 4-5 points per game on 3-pointers (just like today) and he'd get 6-10% more transition in regular season (due to faster pace) - these things aren't enough to make him elite - most of his shots would still need to be halfcourt 2-pointers.

And again - in the playoffs, the game always slows down - pace was the same in the 80's as it is today - pace was 94.0 in 1988, compared to 94.4 in 2015 playoffs.. So Lebron wouldn't get any extra transition in the playoffs, which would further magnify his halfcourt weaknesses.



See, you just made this up, just like the Kblaze post that I destroyed.
Yeah because 3ball the walking contradiction says ok, let's put lebron in the 80s as is, (because he somehow felt it'd be in his favor)oh but let's not let him drive while everyone else can. Oh he does shoot 3s, well he can't do that either. Oh more.fastbreak opportunities then, well let's just say he can't run more either. So let's drop him in as is, but at the same time he can't do these things....:oldlol:


You just said that teams wouldn't guard a volume 3-point shooter in the 80's or 90's... Why not???... Was there a rule against it?... How did they guard Reggie Miller and Dale Ellis????... But somehow in your eyes, once a guy to got 5 attempts teams would stop guarding him.. Unbelievable.. :roll:

I meant in the sense of them not giving it the same importance, because then once you do his driving opportunities open up correct? Oh wait but he can't drive right? Stupid game.

And I didn't really get into the details further but, this is a guy who routinely makes contested 3s, takes step backs and has respectable range 3 to 5 feet behind the line. So in a time where people rarely took normal 3s you're telling me they will be fully aware and prepared for this guy to shoot 25 foot bombs and step backs from 3 point range? This is as is remember?


This is factually incorrect - there is no way to defend the type of extreme clearouts Lebron got in the Finals (shown above), other than to overtly double-team or stay at home.

If one of the defenders on the far weakside even fakes like he's going to come over and help, the spacing makes it so obvious that Lebron can easily toss the ball to the wide open player.. Today's spacing puts defenses in a quandry where they can't do shit without making a huge compromise, so your idea that defenses "force" guys to do certain things is horseshit.

Yeah I know, according to you clearouts were created for lebron james and didn't exist for any other player before him.:rolleyes:


Christian Science Monitor
April 24 1986-
...Where he was most sensational, however, was in isolation against various Celtic defenders. Since NBA rules dictate the use of man-to-man defenses, Chicago created ``clearouts,'' giving Jordan room to operate with pullup jump shots and spectacular drives to the basket. By Game 3, the Celtics were double-teaming him and cutting off his driving lanes, spelling ``good night'' for the Bulls...


The Lewiston Journal
Nov. 6, 1986
......."I think he is, by far the most exciting player I've ever seen," Submits Danny Ainge. "He's the guys whose highlight film you most want to watch. But I don't know how much fun he'd be to play with." Aye there's the rub. If Michael Jordan is forever playing clearouts, can the bulls maintain interest as a team?

.....Michael came off picks and scored most of his points within the flow. But at the end of both games, we saw what people in Boston saw in games 1 and 2 of the playoffs, with Michael playing alot of clearout ball.

Bbbbbbut Mj was the best off ball passer.:rolleyes:


Again - this is horseshit - not only did Lebron's extreme clearouts in the Finals show how much freedom the spacing allows, but look at Harden and Lebron's incessant screen-roll penetration - teams are powerless to prevent these plays.. The insane spacing of today's game allows Lebron and Harden to run screen-roll and isolations for over 50% of their possessions[/COLOR][/I]:

isolation stats for all players: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
screen-roll as ballhandler stats: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


So teams aren't forcing these guys to do shit - you made that up - it's a cute-sounding narrative that's popular among new fans that has zero basis in reality... The reality is that screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the standard for today's offenses, which would require MJ to be the primary ballhandler much more often.. Of course, we've seen what happens when MJ is the primary ballhandler - he averages 30/9/11 on 51% and becomes the biggest triple-double machine we've seen since Oscar.

Yeah because over the course of nba history teams have never forced guys to play games they didn't want to play.:rolleyes:
This is what happens when you rely on highlight reels....


Defenses would have the same options of guarding MJ as they have guarding Westbrook... And Westbrook destroyed the league in 2015... Since MJ was superior physically, mentally, and a far better shooter, he would destroy the league even more - but keep looking like a fool by saying MJ would somehow have trouble in today's game.. :rolleyes:



It has to do with MJ because Westbrook destroyed the league in 2015, so based on that, we know MJ would've done far better.. MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook, with far greater physical capability, smarts, and shooting ability.

MJ got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks each year as Westbrook - this is not an exaggerration (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11685511&postcount=109).. Westbrook simply isn't physically capable of doing most of the things MJ did - the first 3 posts on this page show gifs of plays that Westbrook can't do:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4


Even as a 35 year old MJ got 89 dunks in 1998, which is almost twice Westbrook's season high (52).. :eek:.. Can Westbrook match 35-year old MJ on this play (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/GGVBbQ.gif)??... Hell no.. Of course, it's not just the inferior physical capability - there's also a massive chasm in smarts and shooting ability too.. Given how much Westbrook dominates, it's mind-boggling to think how much more MJ would won the league.
.
You keep confusing points people are making with some slight to Mike. I've already said I expect he'd still be great, just different. So you can continue arguing yourself on whatever point this piece of your post is making....

[3ball]

The 80s would give him as many positive changes as negative.

Lebron would probably run the game on the break the way MJ and Magic did.



:rolleyes: ... Who cares if he does well in 80's transition like MJ and Magic did - those guys still needed to have elite halfcourt games to be considered elite offensive players back then, and so would Lebron.

There's never been a player in history that was considered an elite offensive player without an elite halfcourt game.. In the 80's, without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick a viable option, Magic and MJ needed elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 ability to be elite offensive players.. Unfortunately, we know for a fact that Lebron isn't elite in any of these areas, so he wouldn't be elite offensively in the 80's.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/LmyGlA.gif


Defenses now have to get back and hug the 3-point line to avoid transition threes.



You make a good point here - today's defenders must run to the 3-point line in transition.. But this frees up the middle of the floor/paint area.. Otoh, in previous eras, the paint frequently remained crowded in transition, because defenders ran to the paint instead of the 3-point line like today (see the MJ gif above - defenders ran to the paint in transition, so the shot was still heavily contested).

The need for today's defenders to hug the 3-point line in transition is no different from today's halfcourt sets, where 3-point shooters draw defenders out of the paint to the perimeter.. The open paint created by 3-point shooting is a boon to quick perimeter players who now have the opportunity to beat everyone to the open paint, which happens all the time.
.

[juju151111]

Again 2009 and 2015 are 6 years apart. That's 6 more seasons of strategy fine tuning 3ball. Not gigantic and fundamental changes but nuances that make some of the tactics more effective. You can't be this slow.
Here it is translated to dumbass for you 2009/=2015.


I enjoy Russ alot but it's no secret his season was a controversial talking point. Some felt his efficiency didn't make it all that special, some only cared about his totals. So you're basically bastardizing your god here.



A sub 50 win club.:sleeping


He actually probably had the best post in your thread and saved it for you. You didn't destroy shit except for more of your precious few braincells.


Yeah because 3ball the walking contradiction says ok, let's put lebron in the 80s as is, (because he somehow felt it'd be in his favor)oh but let's not let him drive while everyone else can. Oh he does shoot 3s, well he can't do that either. Oh more.fastbreak opportunities then, well let's just say he can't run more either. So let's drop him in as is, but at the same time he can't do these things....:oldlol:


I meant in the sense of them not giving it the same importance, because then once you do his driving opportunities open up correct? Oh wait but he can't drive right? Stupid game.

And I didn't really get into the details further but, this is a guy who routinely makes contested 3s, takes step backs and has respectable range 3 to 5 feet behind the line. So in a time where people rarely took normal 3s you're telling me they will be fully aware and prepared for this guy to shoot 25 foot bombs and step backs from 3 point range? This is as is remember?


Yeah I know, according to you clearouts were created for lebron james and didn't exist for any other player before him.:rolleyes:




Bbbbbbut Mj was the best off ball passer.:rolleyes:


Yeah because over the course of nba history teams have never forced guys to play games they didn't want to play.:rolleyes:
This is what happens when you rely on highlight reels....


You keep confusing points people are making with some slight to Mike. I've already said I expect he'd still be great, just different. So you can continue arguing yourself on whatever point this piece of your post is making....
So your saying 01 Kobe can't play in 07. 09 LJ wouldn't be has effective in 15, Mj in 9q would struggle in 96. Bro wtf are you talking about.

[Dr.J4ever]

:rolleyes: ... Who cares if he does well in 80's transition like MJ and Magic did - those guys still needed to elite halfcourt games to be considered elite offensive players back then, and so would Lebron.

There's never been a player in history that was considered an elite offensive player without an elite halfcourt game.. In the 80's, without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick a viable option, Magic and MJ needed elite post, midrange and 1-on-1 ability to be elite offensive players.. Unfortunately, we know for a fact that Lebron isn't elite in any of these areas, so he wouldn't be elite offensively in the 80's.



You make a good point here - today's defenders must run to the 3-point line in transition.. But this frees up the middle of the floor/paint area.. Otoh, in previous eras, the paint frequently remained crowded in transition, because defenders ran to the paint instead of the 3-point line like today (see the MJ gif above - defenders ran to the paint in transition, so the shot was still heavily contested).

The need for today's defenders to hug the 3-point line in transition is no different from today's halfcourt sets, where 3-point shooters draw defenders out of the paint to the perimeter.. The open paint created by 3-point shooting is a boon to quick perimeter players who now have the opportunity to beat everyone to the open paint, which happens all the time.

3ball, you can carry on with your never ending debate here, but I just can't let this one thing pass. Magic was never, ever an elite post player, nor was he ever a great mid range scorer, nor was he ever a great iso player.

That's all.

[3ball]

.
Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):

2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09

FYI:

2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47


:banana:

[sdot_thadon]

So your saying 01 Kobe can't play in 07. 09 LJ wouldn't be has effective in 15, Mj in 9q would struggle in 96. Bro wtf are you talking about.
Not at all, you're assuming here. Cut the fanatical bullshit, you watch ball. The style teams play has trended in a different direction over the last 6 years, and strategy along with it. Not say this guy or that guy can or can't be good in a specific period. Every 6 year period wont have such a swing, some more drastic even but this isnt some blanket statement to apply to every situation. Just pointing out pertinent info to add to the discussion, to be clear I didn't even bring up wade or Westbrook. It wasn't really necessary.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

If LeBron were raised in the 70's he would have been coached differently, and would have developed a different skill-set.


For the purposes of this thread, we've only been considering how the current, "as-is" Lebron would do in the 80's because we're doing the same thing for the "as-is" MJ in today's game.

When we look at their "as-is" games, we see that Lebron is weak in the areas needed to be an elite offensive player in the 80's (post, midrange, 1-on-1).. Otoh, MJ was elite in the areas necessary to be an elite offensive player in today's game (primary ballhandler allows today's wings to execute every team's primary offensive attack - drive-and-kick)

Btw, 3-point shooting isn't necessary to be a great scorer in today's game - guys like 2015 Westbrook and 2009 Wade led the league in scoring while being bad 3-point shooters.. So MJ was better suited for today's game, than Lebron is for the 80's.





In the 1980's NBA, LeBron James would have been Magic Johnson... maybe better.


What a joke - Magic is the all-time apg leader at 11.3 apg in regular season and 12.4 in playoffs - this is materially ahead of Stockton's 10.5 and 10.3, respectively.. Lebron is nowhere near this level of assisting - his career assist average is HALF of Magic's.

But somehow, in your mind, he's going to double his assist averages.... just because...... you want him to?... You guys don't base your theories on any logic - it's whatever pops into your head, whether it makes sense or not.





In fact, with LeBron's handle and size, I believe his game is actually more suited for a league that doesn't emphasize long-range shooting.


You and everyone else says the perfect team to fit around Lebron is a bunch of 3-point shooters!!... That's been the consensus for years.. You're only changing it now because you're thinking "he'd play like Magic... yeah...".. That's as far as you thought it through - but you provided ZERO rationale for why you're going against the consensus other than Lebron being tall with handles.

You think really think Lebron would do better with NO spacing and no one spreading the floor for him?.. You're mistaken.. Today's game is perfect for Lebron - 3-point shooters draw defenders out of the paint to the perimeter - the open paint created by 3-point shooting is a boon to quick perimeter players who now have the opportunity to beat everyone to the open paint, which happens all the time..

[DonDadda59]

2015 Playoffs - MIDRANGE:

5-9 feet: 27.2%
10-14 feet: 29.2%
15-19 feet: 33.3%
20-24 feet: 34.8%

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs



2015 Playoffs - ISOLATIONS:

Frequency: 32.9% of possessions (1st out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Field Goal Percentage: 33.3% (34th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.70 (36th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP



2015 Playoffs - POST-UPS:


Frequency: 15.1% of possessions (19th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=Time


Points Per Possession (PPP): 0.84 (21st out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=PPP


Field Goal Percentage: 46.3% (14th out of 39)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=FG


Again, Lebron's below-average ability on the aforementioned post-ups, midrange and isolations, means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining without the 3-pointers needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

What the hell happened to this dude's shot? It's almost like he spent the Summer of the Decision Part Deux working on forgetting how to shoot. The man couldn't buy a made shot outside of the paint.

[Dr.J4ever]

Yes he did - you're just not an intelligent observer... So I won't bother get into the weeds with you.. You've been selling the lie for years that the 80's had spacing.. That alone precludes you from any reasonable discussion about a comparing eras.

Maybe you're good about talking about other things, maybe even current games, but not basketball history.

Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my late 40s. I've seen Magic live vs. my 76ers of the 80s many times. I've listened to the discussions of 76er players and coaches on how to defend Magic during real time and not decades later.

Believe me, Magic was an elite offensive player due to other reason like superior passing, but he was never ever elite at post scoring like King or Mchale. Nor was he great in isos like Erving. Nor was he great in mid range like Gerving or MJ.

He just wasn't . Period.

[Hey Yo]

Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my late 40s. I've seen Magic live vs. my 76ers of the 80s many times. I've listened to the discussions of 76er players and coaches on how to defend Magic during real time and not decades later.

Believe me, Magic was an elite offensive player due to other reason like superior passing, but he was never ever elite at post scoring like King or Mchale. Nor was he great in isos like Erving. Nor was he great in mid range like Gerving or MJ.

He just wasn't . Period.
Thank You.

Anyone who watched Magic play knows damn well he had nothing close to resembling an elite offensive mid range game.

He did though have an elite back-to-the-basket pounding the rock skills. Lucky for him the 5 second rule didn't exist then.

[3ball]

Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my late 40s. I've seen Magic live vs. my 76ers of the 80s many times. I've listened to the discussions of 76er players and coaches on how to defend Magic during real time and not decades later.

Believe me, Magic was an elite offensive player due to other reason like superior passing, but he was never ever elite at post scoring like King or Mchale. Nor was he great in isos like Erving. Nor was he great in mid range like Gerving or MJ.

He just wasn't . Period.


First of all, Magic was elite on the post - you couldn't be more wrong on this one.. Magic was one of the best and most effective post players of all time.. He had an elite repertoire - a hook towards the middle or a spin towards the baseline - either way he's got you... Throw in goat passing and that's an elite post game... The "goat passing" isn't just lip service - Magic wasn't a 6 apg player in the playoffs like MJ, Lebron or Bird.. He was the all-time leader with 12.4 apg in the playoffs.. He could achieve that assist average from any position.. The guy would post up as a 6'9" big man, and run pnr's from the post with his frontcourt players - what PG in history has ever done that.. It was unstoppable.. Magic often ran the Lakers offense from the post.

As for his midrange - here's where we should be able to agree.. You should know that almost all 20 ppg scorers in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency and also many scorers who averaged less than 20 ppg.. This is just a stone-cold fact, borne out by the the eye test showing most players simply had great midrange touch - that's just how guys scored back then... Think of it this way - how many guys in today's game like Danny Green and Delladova have elite 3-point efficiency - like, a super-ton... That's how it was in previous eras with the midrange... Almost everyone had elite midrange efficiency - that's just how everyone scored.. Okay - I've tried to explain my eye test to you, now I will CLEARLY prove Magic's elite midrange efficiency using stats:

Magic was a 2-point shooter - his 2-point field goal percentage was 54.1% on 12.1 two-point attempts per game - the 54.1% WAS his midrange efficiency, once we "remove" his at-rim percentage from this number.. So let's make the most conservative assumptions possible to see what THE WORST possible midrange percentage that Magic could've had... Let's assume that 40% of Magic's shots were at the rim (that's the same as Lebron, who leads today's league in at-rim- it's obviously way too high a number for Magic, but we're trying to find the absolute floor of what Magic's midrange efficiency could've been)... With 40% of Magic's 2-pointers are at the rim, that means the remaining 60% are from midrange.. If we assume a 70% fg on his at-rim shots (again, this is elite and too high for Magic), his efficiency on the remaining 60% of his midrange was 43.3%:

0.40 (70%) + 0.60 (43.3%) = 54.1%


So 43.3% is the WORST career midrange percentage for Magic - and we know that the 40% proportion of at-rim shots and 70% efficiency on those shots were both WAY too high, which means Magic's midrange efficiency was considerably higher than 43.3%... Again, it was elite, just like most decent to great scorers back then.

Regarding isolations, you got me there, except on the post - Magic was elite when isolated on the post.

[mehyaM24]

You are missing what I said. I said if he played in the 80's that means he would have grown up in the late 60's and early 70's. There wasn't even a 3 point line back then. LeBron would of been a huge guy like he has always been and he would be handling the ball still but just taking it close and scoring around the rim. There would be no use for a powerful guy like him that shoots 75% free throws to start drifting out 20+ feet out and launching it. He would never develop a long range shot.



who cares about this


:confusedshrug:


the op already said he would put jordan in today's league just as he would lebron in THAT league, as is, no adjustments or other alternating circumstances.


lebron is more likely to flourish in the 80s and early 90s because:

- he becomes a better 1 on 1 defender with handchecking
- can use the 3 point shot to his advantage (more spacing in the 80s)
- develop more of his midrange (he is often spotty from mid-to-long range, but in 2013 and 2014 he was elite and efficient)

just as kenny smith & steve kerr said - in the 80s and 90s, lebron would have been an even better player.


jordan would still be VERY GOOD today. his shooting percentages would go down because of the sophisticated offenses and defenses plus the importance of the 3 point shot (jordan was average/below average most years, especially with the 3 point line regularized).

there's more spacing in the 80s though, so his drives to the paint would also be limited.

he and kevin durant would challenge each other for scoring titles, with lebron still being the best player in the game more than likely

[3ball]

Here's what I think would actually happen if you took the current, "as-is" Lebron and put him in 1985...The coaches would be like:

"we've never seen anything like you before... you go ahead and do what you want... what was that?... you want to play lebron-ball?... go for it boss... we've never seen anything like you... You're like Orlando Woolridge with handles... Oh what's that?... Lebron-ball is all drive-and-kick?... Interesting... go for it... you're such a specimen."

And Lebron would play Lebron-ball in 1985.... Unfortunately, none of his teammates would be good 3-point shooters, so his points-per-possession (PPP) on that play would be much lower than the same play in today's game... And sometimes his PPP isn't enough in today's game... So his team would lose their ass... And the story would be how "it's a work in progress as his teammates get more reps on the 3-pointers" and "once his teammates step up and start hitting a better clip from 3".... etc.. etc...

But what the media and everyone won't know yet, is that even if his team DOES eventually get good enough at 3-pointers to maximize the efficiency of Lebron-ball, that style is suboptimal and only good enough to go 2/6, regardless of talent-level of even team-hopping!!!!.... It doesn't win in today's game, even WITH the best 3-point shooting possible... What a letdown for everyone that believed in Lebron... Maybe he even promised them "not 6, not 7, not 8" again... :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

LeBron couldn't shoot all playoff's long this year. He's actually a decent shooter besides that.

people have said he would play like Magic, and 3ball countered with "He averages half the assists of Magic".....but LeBron takes a LOT more shots than Magic. If what 3ball says is true, and LeBron wouldn't be able to produce points like he does today, it would make sense that he would be even more of a facilitator and put up significantly higher assist numbers. LeBron has assisted on 35% of his teammates shots while he was on the floor for his career. Magic assisted on 41% of his teammates shots.

[3ball]

LeBron couldn't shoot all playoff's long this year. He's actually a decent shooter besides that.


Not from midrange - he's a career 37% midrange shooter:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

His inability from midrange means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's, when that was a primary option in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make drive-and-kick mathematically viable.

His inability from midrange also means he isn't capable of shooting well at high volume - 27 shot attempts per game (Lebron's 2015 playoff average) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.





people have said he would play like Magic, and 3ball countered with "He averages half the assists of Magic".....but LeBron takes a LOT more shots than Magic.

If what 3ball says is true, and LeBron wouldn't be able to produce points like he does today, it would make sense that he would be even more of a facilitator and put up significantly higher assist numbers. LeBron has assisted on 35% of his teammates shots while he was on the floor for his career. Magic assisted on 41% of his teammates shots.


Lebron isn't on par with Magic as a passer, so he could never achieve Magic's assist numbers:

Per 100 Possessions - PLAYOFFS:

Magic: 15.1 ast.. 4.5 tov
Lebron: 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov
Jordan: 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov


I decided to put MJ's number up there too so you can see the levels.. Lebron is a Jordan-level passer, which is still pretty awesome.. But that's nowhere NEAR Magic, who was the greatest passer of all time - Magic is the all-time apg leader in RS and playoffs, with HEALTHY margins on 2nd place John Stockton.
.

[3ball]

Today's defenses have to get back and hug the 3-point line to prevent transition threes



Kblaze makes a really good point here - today's defenders must run to the 3-point line in transition.. However, this frees up the middle of the floor/paint area.. Otoh, in previous eras, the paint was frequently crowded in transition, because defenders ran to the paint instead of the 3-point line like today (see the gif's below - defenders ran to the paint in transition, so the shot was still heavily contested).


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/8H1tQ1.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/LmyGlA.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/_lAQl8.gif


The above gifs show defenders in previous eras running to the paint in transition.. Otoh, today's defender must hug the 3-point line in transition - they must also hug the 3-point line in halfcourt sets, where 3-point shooters similarly draw defenders out of the paint to the perimeter.. The open paint created by 3-point shooting is a boon to quick perimeter players who now have the opportunity to beat everyone to the open paint, which happens all the time.
.

[mehyaM24]

what would really go down

- lebron is becomes of the best 3 point shooters
- lebron becomes a better 1v1 defender
- lebron picks up his midrange after the elite 2013 and 2014 seasons
- lebron becomes a better paint driver because of the spacing

some mentioning that players wouldn't adapt to the drive & kick are partially correct, but the amount of help lebron would garner (iso defense simply wouldn't work) - he would find the open man EVERY TIME.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif

vs


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/204/847/rasheed_display_image.jpg



zone defense & congested paint >>>> iso 80s

[3ball]

(iso defense simply wouldn't work against Lebron)


Iso defense works perfectly against Lebron - Lebron shot 40% on isolations in the regular season and 33% in the playoffs:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=Time&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs

There's no danger in letting Lebron isolate at those percentages - infact it's always an advantage when a defense can yield these percentages, which is why Steve Kerr, the superstar rookie coach of the Warriors, allowed Lebron's secluded strongside clearouts the entire Finals.

[3ball]

In the playoffs, LeBron assisted on 33% of his teammates shots while he was on the floor for his career. Magic assisted on 43% of his teammates shots.



ralph, notice how there's a much closer connection between Lebron and Magic's assist percentage (shown above), compared to the massive chasm between their assists per 100 possessions shown below.

This is because Magic's teams assisted more overall per 100 possessions, so Magic's proportion of assists (assist percentage) was a smaller piece of the pie.. His assist percentage was still higher than Lebron's, but the gap wasn't as big as you'd think given how many more assists Magic was getting per 100 possessions.





Per 100 Possessions - PLAYOFFS:

Magic: 15.1 ast.. 4.5 tov
Lebron: 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov
Jordan: 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov


Lebron's teams have always had average to below-average assist levels.. His ball-dominant, point guard style turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the playmaking capacity of the team - teammates can't throw the their leading score an assist as often as other teams.. The lower playmaking capacity of Lebron's teams limits their strategic options on offense - the team is locked into playing Lebron-ball.

Otoh, when you have a guy like MJ leading the league in scoring by getting his points like the GIF below (off-ball) - this is highly optimal.. Playing off-ball and having a high assisted rate MAXIMIZES the play-making capacity of the team and maximizes teammates' opportunity to get an assist - MJ's off-ball game and his goat scoring was a reservoir of playmaking and assist opportunities for teammates.. No wonder his role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/NlRpyo.gif

[juju151111]

what would really go down

- lebron is becomes of the best 3 point shooters
- lebron becomes a better 1v1 defender
- lebron picks up his midrange after the elite 2013 and 2014 seasons
- lebron becomes a better paint driver because of the spacing

some mentioning that players wouldn't adapt to the drive & kick are partially correct, but the amount of help lebron would garner (iso defense simply wouldn't work) - he would find the open man EVERY TIME.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif

vs


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/204/847/rasheed_display_image.jpg



zone defense & congested paint >>>> iso 80s
All you did was cherry pic a gif. Mj has dunked on way more big men then LJ and averaged way more dunks.

[Dr.J4ever]

First of all, Magic was elite on the post - you couldn't be more wrong on this one.. Magic was one of the best and most effective post players of all time.. He had an elite repertoire - a hook towards the middle or a spin towards the baseline - either way he's got you... Throw in goat passing and that's an elite post game... The "goat passing" isn't just lip service - Magic wasn't a 6 apg player in the playoffs like MJ, Lebron or Bird.. He was the all-time leader with 12.4 apg in the playoffs.. He could achieve that assist average from any position.. The guy would post up as a 6'9" big man, and run pnr's from the post with his frontcourt players - what PG in history has ever done that.. It was unstoppable.. Magic often ran the Lakers offense from the post.

As for his midrange - here's where we should be able to agree.. You should know that almost all 20 ppg scorers in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency and also many scorers who averaged less than 20 ppg.. This is just a stone-cold fact, borne out by the the eye test showing most players simply had great midrange touch - that's just how guys scored back then... Think of it this way - how many guys in today's game like Danny Green and Delladova have elite 3-point efficiency - like, a super-ton... That's how it was in previous eras with the midrange... Almost everyone had elite midrange efficiency - that's just how everyone scored.. Okay - I've tried to explain my eye test to you, now I will CLEARLY prove Magic's elite midrange efficiency using stats:

Magic was a 2-point shooter - his 2-point field goal percentage was 54.1% on 12.1 two-point attempts per game - the 54.1% WAS his midrange efficiency, once we "remove" his at-rim percentage from this number.. So let's make the most conservative assumptions possible to see what THE WORST possible midrange percentage that Magic could've had... Let's assume that 40% of Magic's shots were at the rim (that's the same as Lebron, who leads today's league in at-rim- it's obviously way too high a number for Magic, but we're trying to find the absolute floor of what Magic's midrange efficiency could've been)... With 40% of Magic's 2-pointers are at the rim, that means the remaining 60% are from midrange.. If we assume a 70% fg on his at-rim shots (again, this is elite and too high for Magic), his efficiency on the remaining 60% of his midrange was 43.3%:

0.40 (70%) + 0.60 (43.3%) = 54.1%


So 43.3% is the WORST career midrange percentage for Magic - and we know that the 40% proportion of at-rim shots and 70% efficiency on those shots were both WAY too high, which means Magic's midrange efficiency was considerably higher than 43.3%... Again, it was elite, just like most decent to great scorers back then.

Regarding isolations, you got me there, except on the post - Magic was elite when isolated on the post.

Magic improved as a scorer as his career developed, but while the word "elite" is in the eye of the beholder, he just wasn't an elite post SCORER to me.

Who was elite in the post? For the Lakers, it was of course Kaj and then later on Worthy. They relied on Worthy during the 2nd half of the decade to be their main half court low post guy.

Others in the NBA like Bernard King, even Bird, and Moses were elite post scorers. It would just be wrong to put Magic on this list.

Even as a mid range scorer, sorry I just can't put Magic on this list. Like I said, Gervin and MJ were elite mid range players, and no one from the 80s would tell you Magic was at par with either of these two greats despite your numbers, which can be broken down interpreted.

I would agree with you that Magic learned to be a much better scorer as his career developed, and yes, he became a good post option with that skyhook he borrowed from Kaj. He surely didn't have this weapon early in the 80s.

Magic was a good scorer and goat passer who led great offenses. These attributes combined with the titles equals top 10 player. No doubt.

[Hey Yo]

First of all, Magic was elite on the post - you couldn't be more wrong on this one.. Magic was one of the best and most effective post players of all time.. He had an elite repertoire - a hook towards the middle or a spin towards the baseline - either way he's got you... Throw in goat passing and that's an elite post game... The "goat passing" isn't just lip service - Magic wasn't a 6 apg player in the playoffs like MJ, Lebron or Bird.. He was the all-time leader with 12.4 apg in the playoffs.. He could achieve that assist average from any position.. The guy would post up as a 6'9" big man, and run pnr's from the post with his frontcourt players - what PG in history has ever done that.. It was unstoppable.. Magic often ran the Lakers offense from the post.

As for his midrange - here's where we should be able to agree.. You should know that almost all 20 ppg scorers in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency and also many scorers who averaged less than 20 ppg.. This is just a stone-cold fact, borne out by the the eye test showing most players simply had great midrange touch - that's just how guys scored back then... Think of it this way - how many guys in today's game like Danny Green and Delladova have elite 3-point efficiency - like, a super-ton... That's how it was in previous eras with the midrange... Almost everyone had elite midrange efficiency - that's just how everyone scored.. Okay - I've tried to explain my eye test to you, now I will CLEARLY prove Magic's elite midrange efficiency using stats:

Magic was a 2-point shooter - his 2-point field goal percentage was 54.1% on 12.1 two-point attempts per game - the 54.1% WAS his midrange efficiency, once we "remove" his at-rim percentage from this number.. So let's make the most conservative assumptions possible to see what THE WORST possible midrange percentage that Magic could've had... Let's assume that 40% of Magic's shots were at the rim (that's the same as Lebron, who leads today's league in at-rim- it's obviously way too high a number for Magic, but we're trying to find the absolute floor of what Magic's midrange efficiency could've been)... With 40% of Magic's 2-pointers are at the rim, that means the remaining 60% are from midrange.. If we assume a 70% fg on his at-rim shots (again, this is elite and too high for Magic), his efficiency on the remaining 60% of his midrange was 43.3%:

0.40 (70%) + 0.60 (43.3%) = 54.1%


So 43.3% is the WORST career midrange percentage for Magic - and we know that the 40% proportion of at-rim shots and 70% efficiency on those shots were both WAY too high, which means Magic's midrange efficiency was considerably higher than 43.3%... Again, it was elite, just like most decent to great scorers back then.

Regarding isolations, you got me there, except on the post - Magic was elite when isolated on the post.
After all the above calculated bullshit, Magic still was not an elite mid-range shooter. The eye test proves that.

The only set shots that Earvin took his first 7yrs were from the FTL

[pauk]

He would aveage 40-50 ppg ?:shrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

He would aveage 40-50 ppg ?:shrug:

ok either post your Jordan flop thread or GTFO you fraud

you've been exposed so hard on here, where's your 100 shot challenge video after all those claims about how much you practice..

where's your Jordan flop videos after watching footage for a year

you are seriously a fuccing fraud..

:roll: :roll:

[KnittingRyu]

Currently, Lebron is the best player in the NBA, or close to it - top 5 for sure.. But let's run an experiment - let's take away Lebron's screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

Let's imagine a scenario where he can't use drive-and-kick as his primary weapon like he does now... Would he still be the best player if he was forced to shoot mostly midrange, post-ups and isolation?

Like, literally - imagine a scenario where Lebron MUST post-up, operate from midrange, and isolate for most of his buckets.. How good would he be?

Of course, this scenario is what Lebron would face in the 80's, when post-ups, midrange, and iso were the only options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make Lebron's preferred screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.
.

Such a dumb hypothetical. Nobody ever drove and kicked in the 80s? It may be tougher back then, but LeBron would certainly still get to utilize those abilities.

What if Shaq wasn't allowed to post up? Dumb question to ask right?

[G-train]

If you want to see how Lebron would do in the 80's, imagine if Magic Johnson had Wilkin's athleticism.

[nzahir]

Would jordan still be good if he had no legs? :hammerhead: