Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

[3ball]

.

Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
____________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

Avg. with LeBron: 4.27
Without LeBron: 4.55
____________________
0.18 improvement



2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
_____________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

With LeBron: 4.41
Without LeBron: 4.48
___________________
0.07 improvement



1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
____________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

With MJ: 3.64
Without MJ: 4.14
___________________
0.50 improvement



2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com



starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.. Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted player didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams, as the data linked above shows.

The Heat's possessions per assist only improved (declined) 0.18 during the Lebron years, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07... Otoh, the Bulls improved exactly 0.50 during the MJ years.. They went frorm 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

Clearly, MJ improved the Bulls passing a lot, while Lebron didn't improve the Cavs at all, and his Heat barely improved.. (Bosh being moved to 3-point shooter and the addition of Ray Allen made the difference in 2013 and 2014).

No wonder MJ's role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/NlRpyo.gif

[AnaheimLakers24]

I agree, bron sucks but im a big fan so this opinion is unbiased

[90sgoat]

Cold Hard Facts.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

That's hard to argue against. Lebron the ball dominator.

[Fallen Angel]

3ball would be better off suited on RealGM, some of the stuff he posts are truly debatable in the context of the whole history of basketball teams, people on ISH will always just turn it to Jordan vs. Lebron.

[Dr Hawk]

Great post 3ball

[warriorfan]

the truth

[Bankaii]

I don't get it, all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS. MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties. Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.

And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.
So despite MJ haven't the ball in hands the most for the Bulls, he still is quite far off from having a higher assist percentage for his team than Bron does for his teams.

MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.
The worst part is that all the idiot trolls in this thread blindly agree with you not knowing what you're talking about at all.

[warriorfan]

I don't get it, all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS. MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties. Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.

And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.
So despite MJ haven't the ball in hands the most for the Bulls, he still is quite far off from having a higher assist percentage than Bron.

MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.
The worst part is that all the idiot troll in this thread blindly agree with you not knowing what you're talking about at all.

The Bulls as a team were better passers than LeBron's team because LeBron's ball dominant style of play doesn't encourage a balanced offense with proper ball movement.

[Bankaii]

The Bulls as a team were better passers than LeBron's team because LeBron's ball dominant style of play doesn't encourage a balanced offense with proper ball movement.
I already debunked that bullshit. Stick to sucking Curry's 0/11 dick you obviously can't have an intelligent basketball debate.

[warriorfan]

I already debunked that bullshit. Stick to sucking Curry's 0/11 dick you obviously can't have an intelligent basketball debate.

Having a meltdown while we are having a mature basketball discussion isn't going to get you anywhere.

[GrapeApe]

I don't get it, all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS. MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties. Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.

And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.
So despite MJ haven't the ball in hands the most for the Bulls, he still is quite far off from having a higher assist percentage for his team than Bron does for his teams.

MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.
The worst part is that all the idiot trolls in this thread blindly agree with you not knowing what you're talking about at all.

:wtf:

Wade averages 6 apg for his career and is one of the best passing and playmaking SG's in history.

[Bankaii]

:wtf:

Wade averages 6 apg for his career and is one of the best passing and playmaking SG's in history.
Are you really arguing that Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen?

[DonDadda59]

Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ci4n9kKtTFE/TxWl8Jcs1DI/AAAAAAAAE4s/J33s4SZ9dxc/s1600/heat-dwayne-wade-lebron-choke-funny-nba-photos-2012.jpg

[GrapeApe]

Are you really arguing that Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen?

Absolutely.

[Bankaii]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ci4n9kKtTFE/TxWl8Jcs1DI/AAAAAAAAE4s/J33s4SZ9dxc/s1600/heat-dwayne-wade-lebron-choke-funny-nba-photos-2012.jpg
My goodness. For your sake let's say Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen (he isn't), that means both Lebron and Jordan had another playmaker on their team. Lebron only had Wade 4 years btw.

Care to explain why even tho Jordan had a higher usage rate his assist percentage for his team was lower than Lebron's if Lebron is so ball dominant?

[Fallen Angel]

Are you really arguing that Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen?
He probably is.

Playmaking includes creating shots for yourself and teammates.

[Bankaii]

Absolutely.
On what basis?

[warriorfan]

My goodness. For your sake let's say Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen (he isn't), that means both Lebron and Jordan had another playmaker on their team. Lebron only had Wade 4 years btw.

Care to explain why even tho Jordan had a higher usage rate his assist percentage for his team was lower than Lebron's if Lebron is so ball dominant?

what a meltdown

[Fallen Angel]

http://bkref.com/tiny/cIGyr

Across the board Dwyane Wade's APG numbers are higher.

Scoring isn't even a question.

[Fallen Angel]

Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen played in a triangle, a system'd offense that utilizes multiple players during possessions.

Lebron James and Dwyane Wade played in a drive and kick offense, which is iso oriented.

[Bankaii]

http://bkref.com/tiny/cIGyr

Across the board Dwyane Wade's APG numbers are higher.

Scoring isn't even a question.
Wade has also been the primary guy for his entire career until Bron came. He's only average 1 more asp than a sidekick. Equal assists in the playoffs. That's not that great considering the circumstances. But Wade wasn't the point of my post.


what a meltdown
There you go, shit posting is what you're good at:applause:

[3ball]

all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS.


Every single one of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?

Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science.. :rolleyes:





MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties.


Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact





Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.


Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.

And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).





And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.


Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.





MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.


This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.

But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.

Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.

[GrapeApe]

On what basis?

Statistics and eyes.

Wade has a higher career assist average and had a 6 year stretch ('05-'10) where he averaged 7 apg while also being his team's leading scorer. Wade has had multiple seasons finishing top 10 in the league in scoring and assists, including finishing 7th in assists while winning a scoring title. He won a championship as his team's top scorer, primary ball-handler, and playmaker. He's a far better penetrator and creator than Pippen ever was.

[guy]

:applause: not surprising. Would be nice to see what this is for the Thunder and Clippers.

[scandisk_]

props to 3ball for that insightful post.

no, seriously

[mehyaM24]

this is to ether 3ball''s ast% logic (not necessarily the topic here, but it still works)

first threepeat

Jordan - 738 FGM (383 AST)
Pippen - 446 FGM (353 AST)
Others - 1111 FGM (591 AST)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Qme7S

second threepeat

Jordan - 657 FGM (239 AST)
Pippen - 363 FGM (289 AST)
Others - 991 FGM (704 AST)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vkkm0

---

1997+1998 Playoffs Combined

Jordan assisted by:

Pippen - 66 FGM (14% of FGM)
Others - 154 FGM
Unassisted - 250 FGM

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs

pippenn assisted by:

Jordan - 40 FGM (16% of FGM)
Others - 102 FGM
Unassisted - 109 FGM

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs

---

carrying these percentages over to the first and second three-peats:

1991-93
Jordan assisted Pippen 446*16%~71 times (312 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 738*14%~103 times (250 other assists)

1996-98
Jordan assisted Pippen 363*16%~58 times (181 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 657*14%~92 times (197 other assists)

---

conclusions:

1) ast% is unreliable here, because MJ took many more shots than scottie. ast% formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). mj taking more shots makes the

[iamgine]

.
Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09


2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com


Lebron's teams have always had below-average assist levels.. His ball-dominant, point guard style turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the playmaking capacity of the team - teammates can't throw the their leading scorer an assist as often as other teams.. The lower playmaking capacity of Lebron's teams limits their strategic options on offense - the team is locked into playing Lebron-ball.

Otoh, when you have a guy like MJ leading the league in scoring by getting his points like the GIF below (off-ball) - this is highly optimal.. Playing off-ball and having a high assisted rate MAXIMIZES the play-making capacity of the team and maximizes teammates' opportunity to get an assist - MJ's off-ball game and his goat scoring was a reservoir of playmaking and assist opportunities for teammates.. No wonder his role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.


2014-15 GSW = 4.69
2014-15 SAS = 4.52

Damn these are terrible passing team huh what with Duncan hogging the ball making non-optimal plays.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Bless Mathews]

Having a meltdown while we are having a mature basketball discussion isn't going to get you anywhere.


:applause:

Slayed.

Niggah gonna bring up sucking dick while a calm, intelligent basketball discussion is going on



:biggums:

[Jailblazers7]

OP is stupid and doesn't even know why. One of the least convincing arguments in favor of Jordan I've seen. And I even agree Jordan > Lebron.

[Bankaii]

Every single one of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?

Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science.. :rolleyes:



Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact



Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.

And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).



Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.



This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.

But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.

Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.
Going by your dumb logic, in 1995 when Jordan missed most the season the Bulls had 3.29 points per possession, which is their lowest of the Jordan era. Why was it so low the season he missed if he wasn't ball dominant?

And do you mind posting each teams stats before and after Lebron left? Since he's so ball dominant there should be a huge spike in the numbers.
Like how the 2010 Heat had 4.74(higher than any Bron team) before Lebron joined and 4.60(higher than any point Lebron was on the team) the year after he left.

He's so ball dominant their stats get worse without him:bowdown:
Inb4 professional athletes forgot how to play basketball without Bron ball.

[bdreason]

2014-15 GSW = 4.69
2014-15 SAS = 4.52

Damn these are terrible passing team huh what with Duncan hogging the ball making non-optimal plays.

:roll: :roll: :roll:


This possessions per assist stat he's trying to push is a joke. Trying to use it across multiple eras with different rules and strategies is even worse. It's actually embarrassing how much effort he puts into proving nothing. I honestly don't think he's seen any of these guys play ball except in highlights clips.

[dubeta]

1. Teams shot higher FG% then (higher fg% more assists, you need to MAKE the shot for the assist to count)



2. Teams shoot more 3's today (a 3 point assist is worth 50% more than a 2 pointer 3 vs 2 etc) but both are only counted as 1 assist even though on average today's assist are worth more


/end thread

3ball loses

[knicksman]

This proves that bran isnt a team player and thus a loser. I mean wade>pippen as a passer and jordan>bran too in passing. But instead it was bran who leads apg meanwhile jordan trusted pippen to play off ball.

[dunksby]

Stupid argument, it collapses on it's own when you realize according to this a lot of move the ball oriented teams are considered selfish ball hogging ones.

[OldSchoolBBall]

And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.
So despite MJ haven't the ball in hands the most for the Bulls, he still is quite far off from having a higher assist percentage for his team than Bron does for his teams.

Surprised to see idiots still confusing USG% and ball dominance. They have little to do with each other. Usage is a measure of FGA/FTA/AST while ball dominance refers to how much clock time a player has the ball in their hands. And Lebron is WORLDS more ball dominant than Jordan ever was.

[sdot_thadon]

1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 =*3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 =*3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 =*3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 =*3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 =*4.09


Decent work but not sure it really says what you're wanting it to say.

[QUOTE=sam smith]Jordan had spit out the words

[aj1987]

2010 Miami Heat - 4.75
2009 Miami Heat - 4.41
2008 Miami Heat - 4.50

2011 Cavaliers - 4.43
2012 Cavaliers - 4.61
2013 Cavaliers - 4.47
2014 Cavaliers - 4.41

You really need to go out and get a life, dude.

[guy]

2014-15 GSW = 4.69
2014-15 SAS = 4.52

Damn these are terrible passing team huh what with Duncan hogging the ball making non-optimal plays.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Those numbers aren't right.

[3ball]

Teams shoot more 3's today (a 3 point assist is worth 50% more than a 2 pointer 3 vs 2 etc) but both are only counted as 1 assist even though on average today's assist are worth more


You are misunderstanding the stat - the stat measures TEAM POSSESSIONS/TEAM ASSISTS... 3-pointers have nothing to do with it.

And the numbers aren't close - for every single season of Lebron's career, his teams assisted significantly less frequently than every season of MJ's career... Like, the numbers aren't close AT ALL.





Teams shot higher FG% then (higher fg% more assists, you need to MAKE the shot for the assist to count)


FG% was the same and often worse for MJ's teams, and Lebron's teams still had significantly less frequent assists... It's not like the stats are close - Lebron's teams had significantly less frequent assists for every year of his career.

The data is very clear.. Lebron fans are destroyed by these stats - they prove Lebron-led teams aren't great passing teams.. Period.. Deal with it
.

[3ball]

I honestly don't think he's seen any of these guys play ball except in highlights clips.


I've played WITH them in actual college games.. That should shut you up





Trying to use it across multiple eras with different rules and strategies is even worse.


I smell desperation - rules and strategies have nothing to do with it - the formula is team possessions per game/team assists per game... Possessions per assist.

You can't get any clearer than that.. The stat measures the frequency of assists - it's a clean stat.

It's funny though - we have a huge sample showing that everywhere Lebron went and for every single season of his career, his teams assisted at a FAR less frequent rate than every single season of MJ's career.

It's not like the stats are close - it's a WIDE margin every year.. Every single season, no exception.

The data is very clear.. Lebron fans are destroyed by these stats - they prove Lebron-led teams aren't great passing teams - Lebron-ball leads to a team that doesn't assist each other very much.. Deal with it

[Bankaii]

2010 Miami Heat - 4.75
2009 Miami Heat - 4.41
2008 Miami Heat - 4.50

2011 Cavaliers - 4.43
2012 Cavaliers - 4.61
2013 Cavaliers - 4.47
2014 Cavaliers - 4.41

You really need to go out and get a life, dude.
3Ball you care to address this? Shouldn't their numbers look better without Bron?

And why did the Bulls have their best season following you fake stat when Jordan was out?

[3ball]

3Ball you care to address this? Shouldn't their numbers look better without Bron?

And why did the Bulls have their best season following you fake stat when Jordan was out?


Assist frequency should be better/higher WITH Lebron, and it isn't.

Otoh, when you add the greatest scorer of all time to ANY team, you'd think the assist frequency would go down... But instead, it remains the same or increased.. (1992 was the Bulls' highest assist frequency)

Why did the Bulls maintain or increase assist frequency despite adding the greatest scorer of all time??.... Because MJ has a higher assisted rate - his off-ball game creates MORE opportunities for teammates to assist, while Lebron's ball-dominance does the opposite.. Lebron's lower assisted rate is a statistical fact.. Like seriously - what's better for a team - a guy getting 30 ppg at a HIGH assisted rate, or a guy getting 30 at a low assisted rate... :rolleyes:

The stats are what they are - virtually every single one of Lebron's teams gets assists at a FAR lower frequency than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.

[kshutts1]

I only read the first page. Has anyone brought up the differences in team offenses? Fast break opportunities?

[3ball]

I only read the first page. Has anyone brought up the differences in team offenses? Fast break opportunities?
You should be able to see by looking at the data, that there is a huge gap in assist frequency for their ENTIRE CAREERS, which includes many years where the Bulls and the league played at a slower pace (2nd three-peat).

Also, I have yet to calculate the AVERAGE gap in assist frequency for MJ and Lebron's entire careers, but it's huge... In most seasons, MJ's teams assisted 30% more frequently... That's about what the average gap is...

Pace was never 30% faster, nor do we know whether faster pace even results in a higher assist rate... None of this matters anyway - because again - there is a huge gap in assist frequency for their ENTIRE CAREERS, which includes many years where the Bulls and the league played at a slower pace (2nd three-peat).
.

[Bankaii]

Assist frequency should be better/higher WITH Lebron, and it isn't.

Otoh, when you add the greatest scorer of all time to ANY team, you'd think the assist frequency would go down... But instead, it remains the same or increased.. (1992 was the Bulls' highest assist frequency)

Why did the Bulls maintain or increase assist frequency despite adding the greatest scorer of all time??.
Are you even looking your own stats? Everything you just said is horribly wrong.
The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)

In case you're too stupid to realize. Lebron's team were worse when he left.
While Jordan's team got better when he left.

Now admit you're a dumbass and your fake stat backfired and did nothing but prove Jordan is more ball dominant than Bron, dumbass.

[3ball]

.
No one in history is more explosive off a one-step vertical (drop-step):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/yIFtcV.gif



No one in history is more explosive from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple threat position):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/PIr0LW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/B_wITa.gif

[TripleA]

Dude your stat make no sense. Lebrons teams got worse when he left and got better when was on the team your just making yourself look stupid. Jordans team got better at this stat when he left.

[sdot_thadon]

Are you even looking your own stats? Everything you just said is horribly wrong.
The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)

In case you're too stupid to realize. Lebron's team were worse when he left.
While Jordan's team got better when he left.

Now admit you're a dumbass and your fake stat backfired and did nothing but prove Jordan is more ball dominant than Bron, dumbass.
:eek:

Hmm, seems like another correlation could be, better supporting casts fair better at this stat as well.

[3ball]

Dude your stat make no sense. Lebrons teams got worse when he left and got better when was on the team your just making yourself look stupid. Jordans team got better at this stat when he left.
Not true - the 2003 Cavs were at 4.50, which is better than 4.72 for the 2006 Cavs... The 2015 Heat were at 4.59, which is the same as they were in 2011 and 2012 with Lebron.

But this doesn't matter anyway, because the sample size of instances where Lebron left a team is small.

Otoh, we have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former... And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average... MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - everyone's team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

No surprise all those teams were flat out better teams.....

[3ball]

No surprise all those teams were flat out better teams.....
We have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - it seems like EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not... In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>

[Bankaii]

Sorry bud.. :confusedshrug: ... Accept defeat.. The stats are what they are..

For Lebron's entire 11-year career, every single one of his teams assisted FAR less frequently than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.
Lol the deflection is real.
The only time Lebron made his team "worse" by your made up stat was his rookie year.
While MJ was hurting his team throughout the entire of his Bulls career and they had their best year when he was out in one of his PRIME years.

Hold the L fgt, I'm done responding. I just took a shit on your fake stat and now you're just going to deflect and make up more bullshit.

[warriorfan]

Nah bud... Team possessions per game/Team apg is a real stat.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

Magic's teams assisted far more frequently, so did Bird's teams, so did MJ's teams, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - basically EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not...

In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>

It's ironic that LeBron gets praise for having assist numbers yet his team is low in assists per possessions. Fans that "get it" know that LeBron's assist numbers don't translate to team basketball and are just boosted because of LeBron's excessive ball domination.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sorry bud.. :confusedshrug: ... Accept defeat.. The stats are what they are..

For Lebron's entire 11-year career, every single one of his teams assisted FAR less frequently than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.

I dig your gifs bro, but bankaii just served you up. Take the L, and move forward amigo.

[3ball]

I dig your gifs bro, but bankaii just served you up. Take the L, and move forward amigo.
Only a someone that can't understand statistics would think he had a point - the sample size of instances where Lebron left a team is small and the change in assist frequency goes both ways.. Same thing for when MJ left his teams.

Otoh, we have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams to other teams, present and former... And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average... Duncan's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, MJ's, Bird's, Steph Curry's - everyone's team assists better than Lebron's teams..

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not.. Everyone else's team assists FAR more frequently.

In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 26 points in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 32 in a high-assisted fashion.. ... MJ is so much >>

[dubeta]

^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9

[3ball]

While MJ was hurting his team throughout the entire of his Bulls career and they had their best year when he was out in one of his PRIME years.


You're lying about the numbers - surely you know that anyone can go check

MJ's Bulls had a better assist frequency in 1992 and 1993 (3.40 and 3.56 possessions per assist) than they did in 1994 (3.59).

When he returned, their assist frequency went back up to 3.45 in 1997... So you lied - MJ improved the team - but again, these numbers are meaningless without a bigger sample size.

The only thing we have a big sample size about is TEAM COMPARISONS - and when we compare Lebron's teams to anyone else's teams, we see that Lebron's teams assist at a frequency that's FAR below-average and FAR below all of his peers.. Duncan's teams, Magic's teams, Bird's teams, MJ's teams, Steph Curry's teams - everyone's team assists more frequently than Lebron's.





The only time Lebron made his team "worse" by your made up stat was his rookie year.


That's right - the Cavs assisted MORE frequently before Lebron got there in 2004.

And when Lebron left the Cavs in 2011, it wasn't just him leaving... The Cavs lost Mo Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, Anderson Varejao and Delonte West - so are you going to give credit to the departure of these guys for reducing assist frequency, or are you going to give all the credit to Lebron?

So again, we don't have a good sample size for the instances when MJ or Lebron were added to a team or removed from a team.

The only thing we have a big sample size about is TEAM COMPARISONS - and when we compare Lebron's teams to anyone else's teams, we see that Lebron's teams assist at a frequency that's FAR below-average and FAR below all of his peers.

[3ball]

^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9
You're still salty because oldschool murdered you in the other thread... brush it off brah.. you should be used to it

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball,

I was under the impression these stats were correct:


The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)

If what you said is TRUE, and he intentially posted wrong numbers, then I'll admit I jumped the gun. Otherwise? How does this NOT go against what you claimed in your OP? :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

3ball begging for our attention, keep deleting those posts bud :lol

Maybe someday Jordan will read them



Most pathetic poster here, a human cancer, modern day version on 80's Playoff MJ :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9

please ban this guy, he brings nothing of value not even to trolling. His only contribution is to add unnecessary posts which drive up the cost of server bandwith.

Seriously mods, this guy is not an asset.

Terminate account.

Dubeta go home you're drunk.

[3ball]

Kuniva - The Cavs lost half their team in 2011 (Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte, Varejao), so it's dumb to attribute their 0.20 change in assist frequency to Lebron... Same thing in 2015, when Wade and Bosh were hurt much of the year.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you... You don't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically everyone, not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.

Don't be dumb bud - unfortunately, by thinking Bankaii had some sort of point... that makes you dumb, at least on this.

[3ball]

3ball,

I was under the impression these stats were correct:



If what you said is TRUE, and he intentially posted wrong numbers, then I'll admit I jumped the gun. Otherwise? How does this NOT go against what you claimed in your OP? :confusedshrug:
Other factors can be attributed to the change in assist frequency, such as Wade and Bosh being injured for much of the 2015 season, and the 2011 Cavs losing half their team, not just Lebron..

But I guess you need a college-level understanding of stats to realize Bankaii's numbers are meaningless.. You didn't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically everyone, not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.

Even MJ's horrific teams in the mid-80's had FAR higher assist frequency than Lebron's stacked Heat teams.. However, this shouldn't be a surprise because what's more optimal for a team - when a player gets 26 points in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 32 points in a high-assisted fashion??.. MJ is dimensions >>>

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are good-passing teams - this data proves his teams are bad passing teams.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I understand your point, but in another thread, this is you verbatim:


27 games is a solid sample size... That's an entire college season.

This was regarding scoring abilities between LeBron and Durant. Why the sudden change in logic? Why exactly aren't the samples large enough in your comparison here? :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

We have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - it seems like EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not... In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>
Who's ever said Lebron's teams were great passing teams? Wtf? If anything what's said is he has to set the table for his teams far too often. So you basically prove that Mj had teammates more capable of tooting their own horn? Unless you solely wish to credit Mj for these team stats......
Honestly the only time he's had a teammate truly capable of playmaking was wade especially in 2011 and to a lesser extent every year beyond that due to injury and Kevin love once they get the hang of how to use him. Also the best showing of this "stat" is 2013 which just so happened to be the best team he ever played on.....hmmm.

As far as what is more optimal? Neither. That's the beauty of basketball 3ball, there's more than one way to play the game. You play according to your assets, MJ and Lebron are 2 completely different players. Mj is the guy shooting, Lebron is the guy running the offense. What's with this tunnel vision that he has to recreate MJ's career in order to be validated?

[3ball]

I understand your point, but in another thread, this is you verbatim:



This was regarding scoring abilities between LeBron and Durant. Why the sudden change in logic? Why exactly aren't the samples large enough in your comparison here? :confusedshrug:
we don't have 27 instances of Lebron and MJ being added or subtracted from teams.. we have like 5

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

we don't have 27 instances of Lebron and MJ being added or subtracted from teams.. we have like 5

Hmmm. Didn't Bankaii use 1995 as one of the years in comparison? You know, the year MJ missed 3 quarters of the season?

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

So you basically prove that Mj had teammates more capable of tooting their own horn?


1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67

2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55


All of MJ's teams assisted at a far higher rate.. Even the really shitty ones had a far higher assisted rate than Lebron's stacked Heat teams.

Again, this shouldn't be a surprise - contrary to what you think, it IS more optimal to have your #1 option getting his 30 points in a highly assisted fashion, then someone getting 30 in a low-assisted fashion (doing it all himself).

The only position on the court that is low-assisted is point guard.. When a player turns any other position into a low-assisted position (like Lebron does at sf), he lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams (who have higher assisted players at the sf spot).
.

[3ball]

Hmmm. Didn't Bankaii use 1995 as one of the years in comparison? You know, the year MJ missed 3 quarters of the season?

:confusedshrug:
not sure what point you were making here regarding 1995.

but regarding the point i was making earlier - mj was added to the Bulls in 1985... Subtracted in 1994... Added back for a full season in 1996... subtracted again in 1999.. that's 4 instances, and each time, you could never credit MJ fully for the change in assist frequency (i.e. it wasn't just MJ that left in 1999.. the entire team was broken up).

lebron has about 4-5 instances too, which isn't many, and each time he could never be fully credited for the change in assists (i.e. the 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron.. they lost half their team).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

not sure what point you were making here regarding 1995.

but regarding the point i was making earlier - mj was added to the Bulls in 1985... Subtracted in 1994... Added back for a full season in 1996... subtracted again in 1999.. that's 4 instances, and each time, you could never credit MJ fully for the change in assist frequency (i.e. it wasn't just MJ that left in 1999.. the entire team was broken up).

lebron has about 4-5 instances too, which isn't many, and each time he could never be fully credited for the change in assists (i.e. the 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron.. they lost half their team).

That in 1995, the Bulls had a better assist ratio than they did previous years.

Not sure why you're giving this stat ANY credence. It only paints MJ in a negative light - for that year at least.

[Rocketswin2013]

Assist percentage. It exists and goes back into the 70's. LeBron's on/off assist percentage can be looked at. His entire career of it.

If this is looking at assists, turnovers should be looked at too.

[3ball]

That in 1995, the Bulls had a better assist ratio than they did previous years.

Not sure why you're giving this stat ANY credence. It only paints MJ in a negative light - for that year at least.
The stat isn't useful to evaluate whether the addition or subtraction of a player affects the assist frequency of the team - there are too many factors to credit a change in assist frequency to one player (i.e. the Cavs losing half their roster in 2011 or Bosh/Wade being hurt in 2015) - it's pretty ridiculous to try to credit a change in assist frequency to one player.

However, the stat works well to simply compare teams and see which team assisted more frequently than the other team.. Accordingly, the stat paints MJ in a great light - all of his teams had a far higher assist frequency than all of Lebron's teams.

At the very least, it proves that ALL of Lebron's teams aren't good passing teams... Meanwhile, MJ's teams had an elite assist frequency when you compare to various champion teams like Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Steph Curry's Warriors, Duncan's Spurs, etc, etc.. Unfortunately, none of Lebron's teams have ever been anywhere NEAR elite assist frequency.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The stat isn't useful to evaluate whether the addition or subtraction of a player affects the assist frequency of the team - there are too many factors to credit a change in assist frequency to one player (i.e. the Cavs losing half their roster in 2011 or Bosh/Wade being hurt in 2015) - it's pretty ridiculous to try to credit a change in assist frequency to one player.

However, the stat works well to simply compare teams and see which team assisted more frequently than the other team.. Accordingly, the stat paints MJ in a great light - all of his teams had a far higher assist frequency than all of Lebron's teams.

All points taken, and I appreciate the explanation. But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant, and played for a team who's coach didn't do much to alleviate that problem. Wade was literally forced to sacrifice his game just so the Heat could succeed, and finally breakthrough.

If we're being intellectually honest, we would be remiss NOT to point out these things. :confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

All points taken, and I appreciate the explanation. But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant, and played for a team who's coach didn't do much to alleviate that problem. Wade was literally forced to sacrifice his game just so the Heat could succeed, and finally breakthrough.

If we're being intellectually honest, we would be remiss NOT to point out these things. :confusedshrug:

Its easier to play off the ball than on the ball. Its more of a mentality whether youre willing to sacrifice stats for rings or not. But bran wouldnt coz if you remove his apg, he becomes nothing coz hes not an elite scorer. So his only hope is to stack teammates and hope for the best.

[knicksman]

This proves that bran ball=stagnant offense. Or what pjax said,"xbox offense". And that simple offense wont work in the biggest stage thus 2/6.

[GimmeThat]

.
Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09


2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com





and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

[warriorfan]

and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

stat nerd mumbo jumbo

[dunksby]

and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.
Damn good work here :applause:

[3ball]

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.


I have no idea what you posted or what your point was.. Aren't you the guy that randomly posts ambiguous nonsensical posts when a thread is languishing?

I think you are... And I think that's what you did here.

The stat listed in the OP - team possessions per game/team apg is already pace-adjusted, obviously, although I don't even know if that's what you were saying.

[3ball]

But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant



The context you added doesn't help the argument for Lebron - whose fault is it that Wade and Bron are ball-dominant?.. Their fault... :confusedshrug:

Otoh, MJ was elite at both ball-dominance and off-ball play, which has been my point all along.. His elite off-ball ability enabled him to have a high-assisted rate, which increased the playmaking capacity of the team.

For Wade and Lebron, their ball-dominance caused them to have low-assisted rates like a guard - this wasn't suboptimal in Wade's case, since PG's and SG's frequently have low-assisted rates... But Lebron's ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.

Lebron's abnormally low-assisted rate for his position is part of the reason ALL his teams have low assist frequency, not just his Heat teams.. Look at the 2015 Cavs - they have the same problem the Heat had - two low-assisted ball-dominators (Kyrie and Lebron).. It's not suboptimal for Kyrie, but it is for Lebron... Btw, replace Lebron with MJ on the Heat or this year's Cavs, and it's hard to imagine chemistry not being WORLDS better as MJ plays off-ball, while Kyrie and Wade do their thing.

[GimmeThat]

I have no idea what you posted or what your point was.. Aren't you the guy that randomly posts ambiguous nonsensical posts when a thread is languishing?

I think you are... And I think that's what you did here.

The stat listed in the OP - team possessions per game/team apg is already pace-adjusted, obviously, although I don't even know if that's what you were saying.

Besides the obvious fast breaks and offensive put backs, how many different ways are there really to score without being assisted?

Are iso plays more ordinary, or assisted plays more ordinary?

[3ball]

Besides the obvious fast breaks and offensive put backs, how many different ways are there really to score without being assisted?



Being the ballhandler in screen-roll, which constitutes 26% of Lebron and Harden's offense.. Isolations are another 26%.

So a total of 52% of Lebron and Harden's offense is either screen-roll or isolations:

isolation stats, sorted by frequency:
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time

screen-roll stats for ballhandler, sorted by frequency - Lebron & Harden are on 3rd page: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Transition is about 20% and post-ups are another 8%.... The types of plays that are really rare for Lebron and Harden are "spot-up", "cut", and "off-screen"... Less than 3% in these categories for both guys.. It's obvious that these guys don't play off-ball.

Otoh, MJ was elite at both ball-dominance and off-ball play, which has been my point all along.. His elite off-ball ability enabled him to have a high-assisted rate, which increased the playmaking capacity of the team.. This is the theme of the OP, where MJ's teams had significantly higher assist frequencies than Lebron's teams.

Unfortunately for Lebron, his ball-dominance caused him to have low-assisted rates like a point guard.. His ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.

[sdot_thadon]

Unfortunately for Lebron, his ball-dominance caused him to have low-assisted rates like a point guard.. His ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.
Kinda have a one sided view there, so since his pg like assisted % so detrimental, why ignore how his entire teams assist rates are? For the coaching system in place the numbers were what you'd expect just with a quick glance of Miami years. Low assist rates for lebron and wade which were naturally the setup/iso guys on the team. Real high assist rates for the shooters. Can't just spit numbers out without citing style or philosophy and expect it to hold much weight. By him becoming the playmaker he in turn makes the pg more of an assisted scoring option to counter whatever gap you perceive him leaving behind. There was only one guy on the team that could make the passes he needed to be elite off ball with regularity. Wade of course. And vice versa lebron was the only one who could do it for wade. With Lebron off ball who did you expect to run the team once wade became hobbled constantly?

[3ball]

since his pg like assisted % is so detrimental, why ignore how his entire teams assist rates are?


Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.





Low assist rates for lebron and wade which were naturally the setup/iso guys on the team.


MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player...

It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)





By Lebron becoming the playmaker, he makes the pg more of an assisted scoring option to counter whatever gap you perceive him leaving behind.


Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.

[9erempiree]

Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.



MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player...

It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)



Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.

Pretty interesting stuff but you could be just a homer of your favorite team or your favorite era of basketball.

Who's your favorite team by the way?

[sdot_thadon]

Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.
No you dumb ****, not a stat you made up. I mean on a detail level, which is likely beyond you since it took you several years to move beyond the basics of ppg.....look at the percentages, for each guy, and they tell the exact story of what you saw on those teams.(if you watched, who am I kidding we both know you watched, too obsessed) Like clockwork. Lebron gives special attention to his bigs, the shooters don't get much help beyond outside shots(which is only right because that's the spot on the floor they occupy mind you)


MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player...
So MJ was a primary ball handler and off ball goat simultaneously? Mind blown. Off ball passing and scoring while somehow being the primary ball handler. No wonder you think he walks on water.:rolleyes:


It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)
Feeble thoughts for a feeble mind. Lebron is pretty unique as a player, so I doubt this "like front court players are supposed to be" notion really applies.



Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.
Well of course my argument is wrong if you pick the one most favorable case for your rebuttal and ignore all else. If you actually looked for yourself you'd see that the majority of Lebron's teammates throughout his career have career highs in assisted percentage years they play alongside him. From stars like wade, Bosh and Love to role players like Tristian, batter etc. So really this insistence that your made up numbers prove any decent point are silly.

The funniest thing about your life's work is Mj wouldn't even appreciate all your persistence. He'd just sue you for 10 million for constantly having his likeness in your mouth.

[Fallen Angel]

Love making up new algorithms to judge teams/players. It's always fun mixing your favorite sport with your favorite subjects.

[3ball]

the majority of Lebron's teammates throughout his career have career highs in assisted percentage years they play alongside him... i.e. Wade, Bosh, Love

look at the percentages, for each guy, and they tell the exact story of what you saw on those teams.


Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).

Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball.. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.





Lebron is pretty unique as a player, so I doubt this "like front court players are supposed to be" notion really applies.


Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) from the frontcourt (normally high-assisted positions).





No you dumb ****, not a stat you made up.


I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how in-the-box of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)

[kshutts1]

Kuniva - The Cavs lost half their team in 2011 (Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte, Varejao), so it's dumb to attribute their 0.20 change in assist frequency to Lebron... Same thing in 2015, when Wade and Bosh were hurt much of the year.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you... You don't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically everyone, not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.

Don't be dumb bud - unfortunately, by thinking Bankaii had some sort of point... that makes you dumb, at least on this.
I must have missed it. Can you please post the "possessions per assist" for every team in the league, for all of the years listed in the OP? I'd like to see how Jordan and Lebron stack up league-wide, rather than be told that Jordan is great and Lebron is bad.

[kshutts1]

Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).

Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball.. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.



Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) from the frontcourt (normally high-assisted positions).



I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how in-the-box of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)
I'm very interested in the bolded. So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?
Or do you really mean....
When Lebron is playing PG, there is someone else playing his "front court" position, and when Lebron is being the front-court player you believe him to be, there is someone else playing the PG?

Because I watch a lot more basketball than you do; we all do, actually. And that second statement rings more true.

What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did. And that Lebron is asked to make plays for his teammates more than Jordan was. And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what? Lebron's pretty awesome at that.
He's one of the best players, ever, at creating for others, and one of the best players, ever, at scoring on his own.
Please don't spout recent Finals/playoffs FG%, because I'll take the significantly larger sample size of his ENTIRE CAREER as opposed to the last POs. And that sample size says that Lebron James averages 27ppg on 50% for his career.
And considering that he's tasked with more on the offensive end, on average, than Jordan was, that's pretty darn impressive. Maybe not as effective, but I'd be the second person to say that Lebron is not as good as Jordan (you'd be the first; no one can beat you to that punch).

[Dresta]

I'm very interested in the bolded. So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?
Or do you really mean....
When Lebron is playing PG, there is someone else playing his "front court" position, and when Lebron is being the front-court player you believe him to be, there is someone else playing the PG?

Because I watch a lot more basketball than you do; we all do, actually. And that second statement rings more true.

What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did. And that Lebron is asked to make plays for his teammates more than Jordan was. And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what? Lebron's pretty awesome at that.
He's one of the best players, ever, at creating for others, and one of the best players, ever, at scoring on his own.
Please don't spout recent Finals/playoffs FG%, because I'll take the significantly larger sample size of his ENTIRE CAREER as opposed to the last POs. And that sample size says that Lebron James averages 27ppg on 50% for his career.
And considering that he's tasked with more on the offensive end, on average, than Jordan was, that's pretty darn impressive. Maybe not as effective, but I'd be the second person to say that Lebron is not as good as Jordan (you'd be the first; no one can beat you to that punch).
Lebron is asked? You're off on that; he demands it, as it is the only way he knows how to play, his MO, and is in fact, the only way he's ever played basketball, from high school to the the NBA.

If he isn't 'asked' to play that way he gets completely lost and/or throws a strop and bails on his team, as in 2011.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is asked? You're off on that; he demands it, as it is the only way he knows how to play, his MO, and is in fact, the only way he's ever played basketball, from high school to the the NBA.

If he isn't 'asked' to play that way he gets completely lost and/or throws a strop and bails on his team, as in 2011.

So many lies and assumptions made in this post :lol

[3ball]

So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?


No, Lebron starts at SF, but then proceeds to play PG, along with Kyrie.. They both dominate the ball at point guard-levels, which results in low-assisted rates for both players, just like all PG's... Otoh, other teams only have 1 guy with PG-level ball-domination and low-assisted rate.





What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did.


The lesser creative offenses of Lebron's teams are Lebron's fault, because he's a ball-dominant frontcourt player, which lowers the assist capacity of his teams compared to other teams.





And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what?


MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).





Lebron's pretty awesome at that.


Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The eye test (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398) and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:


2015 Isolation Stats

LEBRON RS: 40% fg (107th out of 315)... 0.93 PPP (80th out of 315)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=FG&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


LEBRON PO: 33% fg.. (34th out of 44)... 0.70 PPP (36th out of 44)

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=FG&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs






And considering that Lebron is tasked with more on the offensive end, on average


^^^^ This is factually false, and quite ridiculous:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.

[kshutts1]

ITT I learned that Lebron James holds much more sway and influence than any player ever has in the history of all sports. He, and he alone, dictates what offense his team runs or doesn't run.

[kshutts1]

I must have missed it. Can you please post the "possessions per assist" for every team in the league, for all of the years listed in the OP? I'd like to see how Jordan and Lebron stack up league-wide, rather than be told that Jordan is great and Lebron is bad.
Please answer this.

[sdot_thadon]

Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).
So equal opportunity now means everyone gets to be a playmaker instead of the everyone gets scoring opportunities as it has been for decades? Nice.


Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball.. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.




“He can’t do anything with the ball. Don’t give it to him.” – Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

“Give me the fu*king ball.” – Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

“If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you’ll never get the ball from me.”

“I’m sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I’m shooting.”

“Look, M.J.,” Jackson said, “we’re going to stick with the system this season.” Jordan wasn’t thrilled. “I know I can recognize what to do,” Jordan said, “but I’m not sure they can.”
“Teams just don’t win with one man doing all the scoring,” Jackson said, “because when you need to you can shut down one individual, and Detroit has done that to us.” “But that’s when they’re supposed to score,” said Jordan. It didn’t work that way, Jackson said. Jordan’s teammates had to be worked into a system so they were prepared for those opportunities. They just couldn’t shoot in times of desperation, with a few seconds left on the shot clock. When they were open, they had to get the ball, not afterward.


Sounds really optimal.....:rolleyes:


Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) from the frontcourt (normally high-assisted positions).
His position by default becoming a low assisted one but at the same time boosting everyone's assisted percentage is a fine trade off. I've never liked the way he's had to do so much for his team's but it's been effective, so shut up.


I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how in-the-box of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)
By made up I mean you slapped together a metric to suit your needs, ignoring all else that could make the argument more valuable. You didn't do any detail work as i stated, you didn't even do comparisons to the league for those years like the other post stated. Also with your track record of posting fake numbers, everything you put here has to be taken with a grain of salt. As far what stats I respect you couldn't be more far off, I was happen to enjoy going through advanced stats and connecting the dots to what I see with my eyes. Meanwhile I was on boards discussing them, you were trolling those same boards saying "I'm not a stat guy and asking questions" So again stfu. You're doing amateur research and presenting it as if you're a scholar. Don't half ass it.

[kshutts1]

MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).

Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The eye test (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398) and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:

Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.
Edited for size/content.

First, the numbers are misleading. Jordan, apparently, got most of his points off of assists. Which means he did less. Which made those scoring opportunities easier. He was also in an offense that you admitted was better than Lebron's. So Jordan's similar assist numbers mean little.

What I really see is two players.
One, Jordan, plays in an offense that we both agree was better.
One player, Jordan, gets more of his baskets from assists than the other.

So are we really surprised that the other player, Lebron, that has a harder time with everything and is asked to do more of everything... has slightly worse stats/efficiency?

Secondly, Jordan was an "elite off-ball player" and played off-ball quite a bit, apparently. How did he find time to both play off-ball enough to be considered elite, and also go one on one/two/three more often than Lebron James? Please keep in mind that you contend Lebron is a ball-dominant player.

So, to recap, you're an idiot.

[sdot_thadon]

Please answer this.
He won't. Doesn't suit the agenda.




*Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

Quote:

Originally Posted by*3ball

MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).

Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The*eye test*and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:

Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG,*6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG,*6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG,*7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG,*6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.

Edited for size/content.

First, the numbers are misleading. Jordan, apparently, got most of his points off of assists. Which means he did less. Which made those scoring opportunities easier. He was also in an offense that you admitted was better than Lebron's. So Jordan's similar assist numbers mean little.

What I really see is two players.*
One, Jordan, plays in an offense that we both agree was better.*
One player, Jordan, gets more of his baskets from assists than the other.

So are we really surprised that the other player, Lebron, that has a harder time with everything and is asked to do more of everything... has slightly worse stats/efficiency?

Secondly, Jordan was an "elite off-ball player" and played off-ball quite a bit, apparently. How did he find time to both play off-ball enough to be considered elite, and also go one on one/two/three more often than Lebron James? Please keep in mind that you contend Lebron is a ball-dominant player.

So, to recap, you're an idiot


Murder.

[3ball]

sdot - i wouldn't read too much sam smith - he was the original jordan hater.. rather than reading books, you'd be better off learning more about the game by playing or talking to other people who know a lot.. then you'd understand the game better and wouldn't need to quote long passages from biographies.

[sdot_thadon]

sdot - i wouldn't read too much sam smith - he was the original jordan hater.. rather than reading books, you'd be better off learning more about the game by playing or talking to other people who know a lot.. then you'd understand the game better and wouldn't need to quote long passages from biographies.
:roll: He was closer to those teams than you'll ever be 3ball, I'll take his lesser biased word over you fanatic passages anyday. Reading books and articles from the exact time they happened help 1000

[Dresta]

So many lies and assumptions made in this post :lol
Not really. Just a couple of simple deductions based on 10+ years of watching the man play basketball. Nothing personal about it: the guy has just time and time again shown himself remarkably unadaptable on the basketball court - everyone else fits around the only way he knows to play basketball, which isn't all that surprising considering his history, and how his ego will have been continually fed, and all teammates (and even NBA organisations) subordinated to himself, from the age of 14 or so.

[kshutts1]

Not really. Just a couple of simple deductions based on 10+ years of watching the man play basketball. Nothing personal about it: the guy has just time and time again shown himself remarkably unadaptable on the basketball court - everyone else fits around the only way he knows to play basketball, which isn't all that surprising considering his history, and how his ego will have been continually fed, and all teammates subordinated to himself, from the age of 14 or so.
Have you considered that Lebron's teams generally play this style because they want to showcase his historical talent?

Not saying it's the best style to play, but I'm not sure Lebron is "unadaptable", but rather that everyone wants to adapt to him because of his relative greatness.