How many rings would Karl Malone and Scottie Pippen win?

[sportjames23]

Karl Malone + Pippen would win more than 6


dubeta's back and still stupid as shit

[dubeta]

Remember, Malone wouldn't quit on his team on '94 and '95 and he has GOAT longevity. So the Bulls would have far more championship opportunities than with MJ.

Between 1985-2000 easily 6+ rings probably 7


Dont forget Pippen as a 1st option wins 55+ games and is a MVP candidate

[kshutts1]

With a Grant/Rodman-level SG in place of Jordan, I could see the 90's Bulls winning 4-6.

Karl is clearly less impactful, but he also has an additional two years with which to accomplish this.

Bulls would just need to fill the void of Jordan's defense and, ideally, get a guy that can create his OWN shot, though this does not have to be at an elite level. I'm thinking someone with Kirk Hinrich level D and Jamal Crawford level "own shot" combined in to one SG.

I've got a theory that Karl's and Pippen's effectiveness declined a bit in the POs because neither was elite at creating their own shot, hence that being a need with Jordan gone.

[90sgoat]

Where does Jordan go, to the Jazz?

Jordan with the GOAT point guard?

They replace Malone with Hornacek level power forward, that means a top 10 power forward from the 90s. Somone like Chris Webber or Derrick Coleman.

Stockton
Jordan
Russel
Webber/Coleman
Carr/Ostertag

Yeah, thats 6 in a row-

[greatest-ever]

0.

This assuming there's no Stockton.

[Lebronxrings]

Where does Jordan go, to the Jazz?

Jordan with the GOAT point guard?

They replace Malone with Hornacek level power forward, that means a top 10 power forward from the 90s. Somone like Chris Webber or Derrick Coleman.

Stockton
Jordan
Russel
Webber/Coleman
Carr/Ostertag

Yeah, thats 6 in a row-
remember that team was great because stockton dominated the ball and fed everyone including malone. If you take malone out and put mj, he would hog the ball and play jordan ball, where stockton would have to adjust to being a spot up shooter and guys wouldn't really flourish.

[WayOfWade]

This would depend heavily on the point guard play in order to help Malone out. Stockton and Malone made eachother's lives easier and lengthened eachother's careers, the Bulls would need a high quality PG in order for Malone to keep up the pace

[3ball]

Bulls would just need to fill the void of Jordan's defense and, ideally, get a guy that can create his OWN shot, though this does not have to be at an elite level. I'm thinking someone with Kirk Hinrich level D and Jamal Crawford level "own shot" combined in to one SG.


Damn... So the Bulls replace MJ with Malone.... and they STILL need an additional shot-creating, all-league defender?

Not many of those out there - the ones that exist are perennial all-stars...

So think about what you just said - to replace MJ, you need Karl Malone AND a great defending/shot-creating wing.... Whew..

[90sgoat]

remember that team was great because stockton dominated the ball and fed everyone including malone. If you take malone out and put mj, he would hog the ball and play jordan ball, where stockton would have to adjust to being a spot up shooter and guys wouldn't really flourish.

Holy fuvk that's stupid. You and your ilk always say how Pippen was primary ballhandler. MJ would feast off Stockton playing off ball. Oh man, Stockton, Jordan, Webber in that offense - a thing of beauty.

[kennethgriffin]

pretty much any great top 20 legend would have a chance at winning more rings than jordan in chicago from 1991 to 1998 because jordan sabotaged 2 years


malone may win 7, guys like kobe could very well run off 8 straight


an absent jordan from a 55 win chicago team in 94 that was better than houston in the regular season... add kobe to that team and they win it all easly

jordan was flat footed, slow and rusty in 1995... a prime kobe puts them over fatquille o'meal

[3ball]

Remember, Malone wouldn't quit on his team on '94 and '95 and he has GOAT longevity. So the Bulls would have far more championship opportunities than with MJ.

Dont forget Pippen as a 1st option wins 55+ games


The 1994 supporting cast had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, teamwork and mental ability.. Obviously, Pippen isn't winning shit with the 1990 supporting cast, even the though the actual players are exactly the same.

Accordingly, the only way the Bulls could win 55 without Malone in 1994, is if Malone led the Bulls to a 3-peat like MJ did.. Here are the playoff and Finals stats required for the Bulls to 3-peat from 1991-1993:

Playoffs: 35/7/7/51
Finals:... 36/6/8/51


Hmmm.. Malone can't do that or anything close to that.. So the Bulls aren't 3-peat champs in 1994, so Pippen isn't winning 55 without Malone in 1994.

[kshutts1]

Damn... So the Bulls replace MJ with Malone.... and they STILL need an additional shot-creating, all-league defender?

Not many of those out there - the ones that exist are perennial all-stars...

So think about what you just said - to replace MJ, you need Karl Malone AND a great defending/shot-creating wing.... Whew..
Nothing about Hinrich or Crawford screams "all league" or "great".

But otherwise, yes. Just because of how the team was already set up.

On the other hand, I believe that just straight-up switching Jordan with....
Kobe
TMac
Vince
Drexler
Gervin
Wade

...would also yield 4-7 titles in the 90's. They would likely have some Game 7's in there, but they'd still win those 4-7 titles, IMO.

[HighFlyer23]

0

Malone is garbage and was never meant to win a title

[DonDadda59]

As many as Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen won together.

[I<3NBA]

that depends. is Jordan in the league and not on their team? if he is, ZERO.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

0
both their games suffer enormously without MJ and Stock

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't see them beating many (if any) of the teams the Bulls faced in the Finals, or even some of their EC opponents some years, so maybe 1-2. That is if we assume only the same 6 years Jordan led the Bulls to rings. if you just assume 1990-1999, then I guess anywhere from 1-3 is realistic.

[JT123]

0
both their games suffer enormously without MJ and Stock
This is a flat out LIE! Pip not only saw an increase in his scoring after Jordan quit on the team the first time, but his efficiency skyrocketed as well. For once Pippen was allowed to play to his strengths, instead of having Jordan diminish him into a spot up shooter.

[90sgoat]

This is a flat out LIE! Pip not only saw an increase in his scoring after Jordan quit on the team the first time, but his efficiency skyrocketed as well. For once Pippen was allowed to play to his strengths, instead of having Jordan diminish him into a spot up shooter.

Go home Dubeta, you're drunk.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is a flat out LIE! Pip not only saw an increase in his scoring after Jordan quit on the team the first time, but his efficiency skyrocketed as well. For once Pippen was allowed to play to his strengths, instead of having Jordan diminish him into a spot up shooter.

Yeah...no.

1992 with Jordan: 21 ppg/51% FG/56% TS
1994 w/o Jordan: 22 ppg/49% FG/54% TS

[dubeta]

This is a flat out LIE! Pip not only saw an increase in his scoring after Jordan quit on the team the first time, but his efficiency skyrocketed as well. For once Pippen was allowed to play to his strengths, instead of having Jordan diminish him into a spot up shooter.


Damn! Got 'em

[GrapeApe]

Who is the closer? Neither were known for being very clutch and Pippen was never that great at creating his own shot. It can be argued that Stockton was the closer for the Jazz despite Malone being a much more proficient scorer. I'm not sure I'd trust a Pippen / Malone duo late in a close playoff game, certainly not as much as MJ.

[3ball]

Yeah...no.

1992 with Jordan: 21 ppg/51% FG/56% TS
1994 w/o Jordan: 22 ppg/49% FG/54% TS
that ether... dubeta owned again

:banana:

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah...no.

1992 with Jordan: 21 ppg/51% FG/56% TS
1994 w/o Jordan: 22 ppg/49% FG/54% TS
Any particular reason we skipped from 92 to 94? Was pippen out the 93 season?

[ralph_i_el]

pretty much any great top 20 legend would have a chance at winning more rings than jordan in chicago from 1991 to 1998 because jordan sabotaged 2 years


malone may win 7, guys like kobe could very well run off 8 straight


an absent jordan from a 55 win chicago team in 94 that was better than houston in the regular season... add kobe to that team and they win it all easly

jordan was flat footed, slow and rusty in 1995... a prime kobe puts them over fatquille o'meal

>22 year old shaq
>fatquille o'meal

pick one *****

[97 bulls]

Any particular reason we skipped from 92 to 94? Was pippen out the 93 season?
Because they try to compare Pippen best scoring season with Jordan instead of comparing his the season before 94.

But whats never answered is that the league avg for FGAs in 92 was 89. The league avg in 94 was 84 shots a game. So while teams shot less and the league shot less as a whole when comparing 92 to 94. Put 94 Pippen in 92 and due to more shot attempts and FGAs, he would avg roughly 24-25 ppg.

So to summarize, Pippen avg 21 ppg in 92 because there were more shot attempts in the league at the time. He avg 22 ppg because he assumed a bigger scoring load when Jordan left.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Any particular reason we skipped from 92 to 94? Was pippen out the 93 season?

No, but he had a very down season and was dragging ass by his own admission. So what - because Pippen had a bad year after two better years, we should compare another good season from him ('94) to his worst season of the previous 3 and not the better ones? Right...

[Sarcastic]

Pippen couldn't win with Barkley and Olajuwon, but somehow he can win with Malone?

:whatever:

[sdot_thadon]

No, but he had a very down season and was dragging ass by his own admission. So what - because Pippen had a bad year after two better years, we should compare another good season from him ('94) to his worst season of the previous 3 and not the better ones? Right...
Nah, but in this particular circumstance it'd be more genuine to compare the year before to the year after. Makes it look like less of a cherry pick.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Nah, but in this particular circumstance it'd be more genuine to compare the year before to the year after. Makes it look like less of a cherry pick.

If a guy has two great seasons and is clearly on an improving trajectory, and then - by his own admission - has a down year and dogs it due to extenuating circumstances (Dream Team etc.), the cherry picking would be to look at the down year imo.

[AirFederer]

As many as Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen won together.
:cheers: :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

Because they try to compare Pippen best scoring season with Jordan instead of comparing his the season before 94.

But whats never answered is that the league avg for FGAs in 92 was 89. The league avg in 94 was 84 shots a game. So while teams shot less and the league shot less as a whole when comparing 92 to 94. Put 94 Pippen in 92 and due to more shot attempts and FGAs, he would avg roughly 24-25 ppg.

So to summarize, Pippen avg 21 ppg in 92 because there were more shot attempts in the league at the time. He avg 22 ppg because he assumed a bigger scoring load when Jordan left.

You're the worst kind of manipulator, you can't make any such claim, correlation is not causation.

Basketball is not stats, it's the game on the floor. The Bulls play a different game when Pippen has to be the leader, than with MJ. Ifs and buts my ass, you two faced Lebron fan.

[Jailblazers7]

Not sure but seeing a finals where Pippen and Jordan matched up as well as Malone and Rodman would have been a ton of fun. I feel like a Malone/Pippen duo would almost be more suited to today's game where wings are allowed to operate more like true PGs. Pippen would run a lot of the pick and rolls which would probably be extremely effective.

[ClipperRevival]

I say none.

[ClipperRevival]

pretty much any great top 20 legend would have a chance at winning more rings than jordan in chicago from 1991 to 1998 because jordan sabotaged 2 years


malone may win 7, guys like kobe could very well run off 8 straight


an absent jordan from a 55 win chicago team in 94 that was better than houston in the regular season... add kobe to that team and they win it all easly

jordan was flat footed, slow and rusty in 1995... a prime kobe puts them over fatquille o'meal

You are such a terrible poster.

[ClipperRevival]

Remember, Malone wouldn't quit on his team on '94 and '95 and he has GOAT longevity. So the Bulls would have far more championship opportunities than with MJ.

Between 1985-2000 easily 6+ rings probably 7


Dont forget Pippen as a 1st option wins 55+ games and is a MVP candidate

Ditto. Another terrible poster who spews nothing but bullsh*t.

[deja vu]

Malone would find a way to choke.

Would be lucky to win 1 ring.

[jstern]

They're not getting further than they did with Stockton. I'm sorry. Now if they also had Stockton...

[livinglegend]

Easily 6 championships.

[ClipperRevival]

This is not the best combo because you still need a rim protector and a primary ball handler and/or shot creator. Most championships are won with either a great big or a great wing scorer. This team has neither. So you need to fill in two big needs.

Not to mention, at least to me, both are betas at heart. I don't know if you can win a ring with two beta minded people leading the way.

[97 bulls]

You're the worst kind of manipulator, you can't make any such claim, correlation is not causation.

Basketball is not stats, it's the game on the floor. The Bulls play a different game when Pippen has to be the leader, than with MJ. Ifs and buts my ass, you two faced Lebron fan.
Right. And the way the game was played in the mid 90s was different from the early 90s. Teams just didn't want to run. And it was even more different from the 80s. Teams like the Knicks and Cavs slowed the game down so much and beat you by attrition.

How do you explain the drop in FGAs every year during the 90s?. And how can that not have a direct effect on scoring?????

[90sgoat]

Right. And the way the game was played in the mid 90s was different from the early 90s. Teams just didn't want to run. And it was even more different from the 80s. Teams like the Knicks and Cavs slowed the game down so much and beat you by attrition.

How do you explain the drop in FGAs every year during the 90s?. And how can that not have a direct effect on scoring?????

No, that's not the takeaway.

Huge drops in FGA points to league slowing down, playing more half court, less fastbreaks and less secondary breaks. I am sure someone can look this up.

You then assume that if Pippen or Bulls just took more FGA then he would score more, but Pippen was not a good half court guy. Pippen hit a natural limit for his production the more the game slowed down. Instead he was at his best running more breaks with MJ, as a Bulls fan, I am sure you remember MJ and Pip running the break since it was a thing of beauty.

If nothing else you remember Lebron scoring way higher percentages because Wade was there to run the break with him.

You can't therefore claim that Pippen would score more alone on that Bulls team in the early 90s because Pippen was a fastbreak and secondary break guy and he benefited tremendously from MJ drawing all the attention on breaks.

[juju151111]

All those years Malone had stockton and never even make it to the finals. Malone wasn't a great playoff performer. They would need someone who can continue to come through in the clutch. Neither Malone nor Pippen showed this trait on a consistent basis.

[juju151111]

Nah, but in this particular circumstance it'd be more genuine to compare the year before to the year after. Makes it look like less of a cherry pick.
Pippen and Grant both had bad seasons in 93 which led to Mj having to step up his game. Phil even wrote about it that the dreamteam had drained Pip.

[Cali Syndicate]

remember that team was great because stockton dominated the ball and fed everyone including malone. If you take malone out and put mj, he would hog the ball and play jordan ball, where stockton would have to adjust to being a spot up shooter and guys wouldn't really flourish.

You must be thinking of someone else cause mj and Stockton would work...
Mj was great off the ball. More midrange curls, back door cuts and Stockton was excellent at feeding the post....with mj demanding a lot defensive attention, Stockton would see more open shots and broken down defenses to take advantage of. Also Stockton could pick n roll with just about anybody and with mj trailing on the weak side...Yeah, you're definitely thinking of someone else.

[97 bulls]

No, that's not the takeaway.

Huge drops in FGA points to league slowing down, playing more half court, less fastbreaks and less secondary breaks. I am sure someone can look this up.

You then assume that if Pippen or Bulls just took more FGA then he would score more, but Pippen was not a good half court guy. Pippen hit a natural limit for his production the more the game slowed down. Instead he was at his best running more breaks with MJ, as a Bulls fan, I am sure you remember MJ and Pip running the break since it was a thing of beauty.

If nothing else you remember Lebron scoring way higher percentages because Wade was there to run the break with him.

You can't therefore claim that Pippen would score more alone on that Bulls team in the early 90s because Pippen was a fastbreak and secondary break guy and he benefited tremendously from MJ drawing all the attention on breaks.
I think were saying the exact same thing bro. Pippens offensive skillset was much more productive in an open court setting. I dont think he was bad in the half court. 22 ppg on 49% isnt very good.

Either way, my point was that even when you compare the early 90s to the mid 90s the GAME was different. And that more than anything is the reason Pippen could score 20 ppg in 92, then only improve by a bucket in 94 when comparing the two seasons.

If you take Pippen and put him in a setting where the tempo of the game predicated on the fast break like the early 90s, his PPG would've been higher.

You seem to agree with this.

[andgar923]

dubeta's back and still stupid as shit
This a joke?

[ClipperRevival]

I think were saying the exact same thing bro. Pippens offensive skillset was much more productive in an open court setting. I dont think he was bad in the half court. 22 ppg on 49% isnt very good.

Either way, my point was that even when you compare the early 90s to the mid 90s the GAME was different. And that more than anything is the reason Pippen could score 20 ppg in 92, then only improve by a bucket in 94 when comparing the two seasons.

If you take Pippen and put him in a setting where the tempo of the game predicated on the fast break like the early 90s, his PPG would've been higher.

You seem to agree with this.

Your view of Pippen is really distorted. MJ had no problem scoring in the hard foul/hand check days in the 80's and early 90's yet you have to give Pippen excuses?

The guy had almost 2 full seasons to prove what he was as "the man" in his prime. What more do you want as proof? He also had further chances to prove himself outside of MJ after 1998 with Houston and Portland and he ended up averaging 11.5 ppg with those teams.

The guy maxed out at about 22 ppg. That was his ceiling as a scorer. Maybe in a more open era, he bumps it up a couple of points. But that's it. The guy never had the iso game to consistently create his own shot against set defenses. That's a hard thing to do that not too many can do. And he wasn't one of them. Accept it. He was best as 2nd fiddle playing alongside a true, 1A option who can carry the load ala Jordan.

[scandisk_]

To be fair though

MJ and Mailman combo wouldn't be as successful as MJ+Pip

self-explanatory

[andgar923]

To be fair though

MJ and Mailman combo wouldn't be as successful as MJ+Pip

self-explanatory
Hmm....

A legit low post player that demands double teams, can provide tough defense, can pass, run the floor, hit the mid range,

That sounds good to me.

He'd take away double teams away from MJ, imagine running a pick n roll with Karl and MJ two scoring threats? Pfft that's all day.

MJ not only wins the same or more, he wins earlier and his longevity increases.

[sportjames23]

This a joke?


Nope, that nikka's back, but still stupid as shit (not that I was expecting anything different).

[j3lademaster]

Pippen couldn't win with Barkley and Olajuwon, but somehow he can win with Malone?

:whatever:to be fair, that was no longer the Charles Barkley we saw in phili and Phoenix

[97 bulls]

Your view of Pippen is really distorted. MJ had no problem scoring in the hard foul/hand check days in the 80's and early 90's yet you have to give Pippen excuses?
No one is comparing Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan. Jordan maxed out at 37 ppg in the 80s and I believe 32 in the 90s. I said Pippen probably could've pushed his PPG up to 25-26 if were talking abouy the 94 version. How could you construe this as me comparing him to Jordan????? And why bring up Jordan in the first place? Only Wilt Chamberlain is on oar with Jordan offensively.



The guy had almost 2 full seasons to prove what he was as "the man" in his prime. What more do you want as proof? He also had further chances to prove himself outside of MJ after 1998 with Houston and Portland and he ended up averaging 11.5 ppg with those teams.
This is such a dumb argument. First, he was very successful in those two years without Jordan personally. Finished third in the MVP voting in 94 and I believe third or fourth in the DPOY award voting. Along with All-NBA 1st team and 1st team defense. He finished second and was robbed of the DPOY award in 95, and led his team in every major statistical category. Something thats only been done I believe three other times in NBA history. I.could go on. Stating that..... as far as the success of his teams in 94 and 95. The fact is thise teams weren't good enough. Why hold him to a standard you won't hold players you consider better? He was a shell of himself by the time he reached Houston. And they made him more of a three point shooter with the offense running through Olajuwan and Barkley. And they were old too by the way.


The guy maxed out at about 22 ppg. That was his ceiling as a scorer. Maybe in a more open era, he bumps it up a couple of points. But that's it. The guy never had the iso game to consistently create his own shot against set defenses. That's a hard thing to do that not too many can do. And he wasn't one of them. Accept it. He was best as 2nd fiddle playing alongside a true, 1A option who can carry the load ala Jordan.
Come on bro he wasn't that bad. Maybe he didnt have the mentality to score at a high rate of the high 20s but his skillset is not far off from Clyde Drexler. The 22 ppg he scored was IN a set offense.

I think it is you that are the unreasonable one.

[90sgoat]

There is no guarantee that Pippen does as well in the open court without MJ, that's my point. It's the exact same situation as Lebron with or without Wade. Lebron with Wade gets a lot of easy fastbreak points. Lebron without Wade in Cleveland not so much.

Pippen could probably go a few points higher, I strongly doubt 25+ if you look at say 1992.

In 92-92 only 6 guys score more than 25 and they are:

MJ
Dominique
Malone
Hakeem
Mullins
Barkley

And Pippen is not close to being as good a scorer as anyone. This is Run DMC Mullins by the way. One of the best fast break teams if not the best in the league combined with Mullins who is an absolute scoring beast at all distances.

I strongly doubt Pippen scores 25.

22-23 ppg that's his limit.

[ClipperRevival]

No one is comparing Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan. Jordan maxed out at 37 ppg in the 80s and I believe 32 in the 90s. I said Pippen probably could've pushed his PPG up to 25-26 if were talking abouy the 94 version. How could you construe this as me comparing him to Jordan????? And why bring up Jordan in the first place? Only Wilt Chamberlain is on oar with Jordan offensively.



This is such a dumb argument. First, he was very successful in those two years without Jordan personally. Finished third in the MVP voting in 94 and I believe third or fourth in the DPOY award voting. Along with All-NBA 1st team and 1st team defense. He finished second and was robbed of the DPOY award in 95, and led his team in every major statistical category. Something thats only been done I believe three other times in NBA history. I.could go on. Stating that..... as far as the success of his teams in 94 and 95. The fact is thise teams weren't good enough. Why hold him to a standard you won't hold players you consider better? He was a shell of himself by the time he reached Houston. And they made him more of a three point shooter with the offense running through Olajuwan and Barkley. And they were old too by the way.


Come on bro he wasn't that bad. Maybe he didnt have the mentality to score at a high rate of the high 20s but his skillset is not far off from Clyde Drexler. The 22 ppg he scored was IN a set offense.

I think it is you that are the unreasonable one.

This discussion is not about Pippen's all-around contribution, it's about his scoring. What I said above is 100% correct. You continue to overrate his scoring abilities. Why? Probably because you're a big fan of his.

But there is no shame in maxing out at 22 ppg and along with giving you about 8 rpg, 8 apg and 2 spg while providing all-time great D. Some guys are made to be 2nd fiddle and give you an all-around game, just like Pippen while others are made to be that dominant scorer.

[90sgoat]

Pippen simply wasn't a good shooter. He sucked at mid range and turned those shots down all the time. He could hit 3s with some effectiveness when open.

[dubeta]

No one is comparing Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan. Jordan maxed out at 37 ppg in the 80s and I believe 32 in the 90s. I said Pippen probably could've pushed his PPG up to 25-26 if were talking abouy the 94 version. How could you construe this as me comparing him to Jordan????? And why bring up Jordan in the first place? Only Wilt Chamberlain is on oar with Jordan offensively.



This is such a dumb argument. First, he was very successful in those two years without Jordan personally. Finished third in the MVP voting in 94 and I believe third or fourth in the DPOY award voting. Along with All-NBA 1st team and 1st team defense. He finished second and was robbed of the DPOY award in 95, and led his team in every major statistical category. Something thats only been done I believe three other times in NBA history. I.could go on. Stating that..... as far as the success of his teams in 94 and 95. The fact is thise teams weren't good enough. Why hold him to a standard you won't hold players you consider better? He was a shell of himself by the time he reached Houston. And they made him more of a three point shooter with the offense running through Olajuwan and Barkley. And they were old too by the way.


Come on bro he wasn't that bad. Maybe he didnt have the mentality to score at a high rate of the high 20s but his skillset is not far off from Clyde Drexler. The 22 ppg he scored was IN a set offense.

I think it is you that are the unreasonable one.



Lol this 100%

[97 bulls]

There is no guarantee that Pippen does as well in the open court without MJ, that's my point. It's the exact same situation as Lebron with or without Wade. Lebron with Wade gets a lot of easy fastbreak points. Lebron without Wade in Cleveland not so much.
Why would not having Jordan hinder his ability to finish a fast break??????


Pippen could probably go a few points higher, I strongly doubt 25+ if you look at say 1992.
Why wouldn't he be able to score 24-25 ppg had Jordan not been there in.92? Mind you the tempo was more fast paced and he Jordan wouldn't be there. Basically the circumstances that were in 94, but 92 tempo.


In 92-92 only 6 guys score more than 25 and they are:

MJ
Dominique
Malone
Hakeem
Mullins
Barkley
And in 92, he was at 21 sharing the ball with a guy that led the league in FGAs.


I strongly doubt Pippen scores 25.

22-23 ppg that's his limit.
Lol. But he avg 22 in a season where teams better yet the NBA as a whole shot less. More emphasis was put on defense. And Jordan was gone. You're actually gonna try to say that if you take away Jordan from the Bulls in 92 that Pippen ppg only increases 1 or 2 pts?

[LoneyROY7]

A lot.

[97 bulls]

This discussion is not about Pippen's all-around contribution, it's about his scoring. What I said above is 100% correct. You continue to overrate his scoring abilities. Why? Probably because you're a big fan of his.
Im a big Bulls fan. You made it seem like what the Bulls did while being led by Pippen in 94 and 95 was a failure. And that's just dumb. How can you say such?

[guy]

Why would not having Jordan hinder his ability to finish a fast break??????


Why wouldn't he be able to score 24-25 ppg had Jordan not been there in.92? Mind you the tempo was more fast paced and he Jordan wouldn't be there. Basically the circumstances that were in 94, but 92 tempo.


And in 92, he was at 21 sharing the ball with a guy that led the league in FGAs.


Lol. But he avg 22 in a season where teams better yet the NBA as a whole shot less. More emphasis was put on defense. And Jordan was gone. You're actually gonna try to say that if you take away Jordan from the Bulls in 92 that Pippen ppg only increases 1 or 2 pts?

The Bulls played a a pace of 94.4 in 1992 and 91.9 in 1994. Thats a 2.5 possession difference. That's not a big difference at all. It's highly doubtful he would've increased his scoring by even 1 full ppg.

[kshutts1]

This discussion is not about Pippen's all-around contribution, it's about his scoring. What I said above is 100% correct. You continue to overrate his scoring abilities. Why? Probably because you're a big fan of his.

But there is no shame in maxing out at 22 ppg and along with giving you about 8 rpg, 8 apg and 2 spg while providing all-time great D. Some guys are made to be 2nd fiddle and give you an all-around game, just like Pippen while others are made to be that dominant scorer.
Just so I can be clear about a few of your points.... Please let me know if/where I am wrong.

1) Because Pippen, in his 1.75 seasons as "the man" did not score more than 22 ppg, that's his max.
Never mind that most players take a few years to fully come in to their own.
Never mind that Pippen, for the last 8 years or so, had been filling one role, and was now asked to change roles.
I say it's akin to starting over, which is notoriously more difficult than starting. So I think it would be fair to give Pippen more time to grow in to his new role, before proclaiming what he accomplished in such a short time to be his "max".

2) 90sgoat previously listed the only 5 or 6 players that averaged 25+ ppg for a given season.

3) There are more than 5 or 6 teams in the league.

4) Someone that averages 22 ppg couldn't possibly be a top scorer on another team, and thus be considered the first option. He will always be relegated to "second fiddle" status.

5) Scottie Pippen was 8th in PPG in 1994, and 15th in 1995.

6) There were more than 8, and 15, teams in the league in those respective years.

[Lebron23]

At least 3 NBA titles in the 1990's.

[90sgoat]

The fundamental fact is that in the 90s, it was difficult to score 20 ppg. Go look at the scoring leaders, you had a lot of great players who didn't hit 20 ppg. Scoring more than 25 ppg was straight up elite. It isn't like the mid 00s or now where every pick and roll wing player can get 25.

[dubeta]

So the consensus in this thread so far is 6 rings... Sounds about right

[ClipperRevival]

Just so I can be clear about a few of your points.... Please let me know if/where I am wrong.

1) Because Pippen, in his 1.75 seasons as "the man" did not score more than 22 ppg, that's his max.
Never mind that most players take a few years to fully come in to their own.
Never mind that Pippen, for the last 8 years or so, had been filling one role, and was now asked to change roles.
I say it's akin to starting over, which is notoriously more difficult than starting. So I think it would be fair to give Pippen more time to grow in to his new role, before proclaiming what he accomplished in such a short time to be his "max".

2) 90sgoat previously listed the only 5 or 6 players that averaged 25+ ppg for a given season.

3) There are more than 5 or 6 teams in the league.

4) Someone that averages 22 ppg couldn't possibly be a top scorer on another team, and thus be considered the first option. He will always be relegated to "second fiddle" status.

5) Scottie Pippen was 8th in PPG in 1994, and 15th in 1995.

6) There were more than 8, and 15, teams in the league in those respective years.

I really don't know what you want me to say. The guy was 28 and 29 in 1993-94 and 1994-95, dead in his prime and was given the keys to the franchise for almost 2 full seasons. He was playing with a team that was competing for titles and/or making deep playoff runs for 5 years. So he was in a system and with players he was familiar with. You give any truly greater scorer who was held down due to other stars and is given the key and they go off. Like Kobe after Shaq and TMac after Vince or Harden after OKC. It's who they are.

But that wasn't Pip's game. His game was more of an all around game. The fact that his FGA went up by about 1 shot without MJ saids it all. He was a 22 ppg scorer while giving you an all around game.

WHAT MORE IS THERE TO DISCUSS? THE FILM DON'T LIE!!!!

I mean if he had never been given the keys to his own team, we could debate this as a "what if" scenario. But he was given a chance.

[ClipperRevival]

The fundamental fact is that in the 90s, it was difficult to score 20 ppg. Go look at the scoring leaders, you had a lot of great players who didn't hit 20 ppg. Scoring more than 25 ppg was straight up elite. It isn't like the mid 00s or now where every pick and roll wing player can get 25.

Huh? Based on what? There wasn't this dramatic drop off in scoring in the 90's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html

[97 bulls]

I really don't know what you want me to say. The guy was 28 and 29 in 1993-94 and 1994-95, dead in his prime and was given the keys to the franchise for almost 2 full seasons. He was playing with a team that was competing for titles and/or making deep playoff runs for 5 years. So he was in a system and with players he was familiar with. You give any truly greater scorer who was held down due to other stars and is given the key and they go off. Like Kobe after Shaq and TMac after Vince or Harden after OKC. It's who they are.

But that wasn't Pip's game. His game was more of an all around game. The fact that his FGA went up by about 1 shot without MJ saids it all. He was a 22 ppg scorer while giving you an all around game.

WHAT MORE IS THERE TO DISCUSS? THE FILM DON'T LIE!!!!

I mean if he had never been given the keys to his own team, we could debate this as a "what if" scenario. But he was given a chance.
You can't possibly be this arrogant. His PPG went from 17 in 93 to 22 in 94. Those are the facts. Now if you want to delve deeper into it then why cant we. 1992 was a different season from 94. The game was changing.

We agree that wasn't Pippens game. But that doesn't mean he couldn't in a different scenario where his team ran an offense conducive to his abilities.


But even if he did avg that much, I feel the team wouldn't have been successful. So what's the point? Other that to protect the legacy of Michael Jordan. A legacy that doesn't need to be protected. It stands on its own merit..

[ClipperRevival]

You can't possibly be this arrogant. His PPG went from 17 in 93 to 22 in 94. Those are the facts. Now if you want to delve deeper into it then why cant we. 1992 was a different season from 94. The game was changing.

We agree that wasn't Pippens game. But that doesn't mean he couldn't in a different scenario where his team ran an offense conducive to his abilities.


But even if he did avg that much, I feel the team wouldn't have been successful. So what's the point? Other that to protect the legacy of Michael Jordan. A legacy that doesn't need to be protected. It stands on its own merit..

:facepalm

There is really no point. You are just a deluded Pippen fan who can't see him for what he actually was and want to envision another version of Pippen that never existed.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

There is really no point. You are just a deluded Pippen fan who can't see him for what he actually was and want to envision another version of Pippen that never existed.
Dude. Whats so hard to grasp?????? I just said scoring a lot of points wasn't Pippens game. But it foolish to think that if he actually wanted to, he couldn't go out and avg 25 ppg on maybe 45% shooting. But the teams success would've suffered. Again. He avgd 21 playing next to Jordan. How does he only manage to average one more point with him gone? Because the league was different and that wasnt his game. How can you not see this?????

Im not a Pippen fan. Im a Bulls fan. But more importantly I'm a fan of the game. Its dumb to try to give so much credit to one player when its been proven over and ovee that teams win. Which is why I argue any stance that undermines the contribution of a team in an effort to prop up one guy. But then blame the team for the guys failure.

[90sgoat]

Huh? Based on what? There wasn't this dramatic drop off in scoring in the 90's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html

Correction: It was difficult for guards and wing players to score 20 ppg.

[90sgoat]

:facepalm

There is really no point. You are just a deluded Pippen fan who can't see him for what he actually was and want to envision another version of Pippen that never existed.

I think he is actually a Lebron fan who props up Pippen to diminish MJ.

[ClipperRevival]

Dude. Whats so hard to grasp?????? I just said scoring a lot of points wasn't Pippens game. But it foolish to think that if he actually wanted to, he couldn't go out and avg 25 ppg on maybe 45% shooting. But the teams success would've suffered. Again. He avgd 21 playing next to Jordan. How does he only manage to average one more point with him gone? Because the league was different and that wasnt his game. How can you not see this?????

Im not a Pippen fan. Im a Bulls fan. But more importantly I'm a fan of the game. Its dumb to try to give so much credit to one player when its been proven over and ovee that teams win. Which is why I argue any stance that undermines the contribution of a team in an effort to prop up one guy. But then blame the team for the guys failure.


LOL. How was the league so different from the two years MJ was gone that it affected Pip's ability to score more? Funny thing that MJ wins like 5 straight scoring titles up until 1993 and comes back in 1996 and wins the scoring title the next 3 years huh? Stop making excuses for the guy.

You just seem to have a serious issue with MJ and the amount of credit he gets. Both have 6 rings. One is considered the GOAT while the other isn't in anyone's top 10. Why is that? Are people just stupid? No, it's called context. Most people can see that MJ was the one carrying the offensive load, the guy defenses focused on and he still dominated. They didn't have the "Pippen Rules". Pippen was an afterthought to the Pistons. The Pistons' sole focus was stopping #23 because he was THAT devastating on offense.

[ClipperRevival]

Correction: It was difficult for guards and wing players to score 20 ppg.

I don't really see it. Maybe the fact that the late 80's and early 90's had a lot of great bigs distorted the guys who led the league in scoring but there wasn't nothing really preventing guards/wings from scoring except the obvious hand checking/hard fouls. But the NBA had been dealing with that all along up until that time so it was nothing new.

[97 bulls]

I think he is actually a Lebron fan who props up Pippen to diminish MJ.
Lol. What?????? I've said many times that Jordan is the greatest ever. And that he.is the only NBA player, probably even athlete that has no weakness when it comes to playing his sport.

I just don't see why people like "Oldschoolbasketball, Guy, 3ball, and YOU feel that giving any kind of credit to Jordan's teammates means undermining him. Thats DUMB D-U-M-B.

[97 bulls]

LOL. How was the league so different from the two years MJ was gone that it affected Pip's ability to score more?
It didn't affect his ability. It affected his opportunities.


Funny thing that MJ wins like 5 straight scoring titles up until 1993 and comes back in 1996 and wins the scoring title the next 3 years huh? Stop making excuses for the guy.
Sure it did. Go back and look at Jordan scoring averages. The league was different.


You just seem to have a serious issue with MJ and the amount of credit he gets. Both have 6 rings. One is considered the GOAT while the other isn't in anyone's top 10. Why is that? Are people just stupid? No, it's called context. Most people can see that MJ was the one carrying the offensive load, the guy defenses focused on and he still dominated. They didn't have the "Pippen Rules". Pippen was an afterthought to the Pistons. The Pistons' sole focus was stopping #23 because he was THAT devastating on offense.
I have a serious issue with one guy getting credit for what a team does. Especially when I saw what happened when he didn't have a great team. And when he did have a great team, how well they did without him.

Why are you so determined to undermine Jordan's teammates accomplishments

[ClipperRevival]

It didn't affect his ability. It affected his opportunities.


Sure it did. Go back and look at Jordan scoring averages. The league was different.


I have a serious issue with one guy getting credit for what a team does. Especially when I saw what happened when he didn't have a great team. And when he did have a great team, how well they did without him.

Why are you so determined to undermine Jordan's teammates accomplishments

How did having the keys to the franchise affect his opportunities?

Looking at MJ's scoring average proves nothing about the state of the entire league.

And show me where I discredited Pip. All I said was he wasn't a dominant iso scorer like an MJ, Kobe, Wade, AI, etc. And he wasn't. I also always said he was one of the best all-around players ever.

[97 bulls]

How did having the keys to the franchise affect his opportunities?
It didn't and I never said it did. I disagree with the notion that Pippen only scored 22 ppg because that was the best he could do.


Looking at MJ's scoring average proves nothing about the state of the entire league.

You brought up MJ. Again the league tempo slowed. Meaning less FGAs. How is this so hard to grasp????


And show me where I discredited Pip. All I said was he wasn't a dominant iso scorer like an MJ, Kobe, Wade, AI, etc. And he wasn't. I also always said he was one of the best all-around players ever.
I didn't say discredit I said undermine.