Why does Kobe typically measure so poorly in all advanced metrics?

[Akrazotile]

It's not as if it's just one of them. If you dont like PER, or W/S or whatever, there's always more and more metrics created independently by different analysist, and they always show his impact to be significantly less than all the other players that get top-10 type consideration.

Why is that, in your opinion?

[dubeta]

You need an advanced mind to understand advanced metrics


Unfortunately the vast majority of Lakers sheep haven't passed HS

[riseagainst]

because he sucks, that's why.

[Levity]

pretty incredible that a guy with such poor advanced stats is a 5x NBA champion, top 3 in all time scoring, and considered top 10 in many eyes, including past NBA greats.

so i guess it's fair to say, "good" advanced stats do not necessarily equate to greatness, despite what the thick glasses brigade may argue

[Marchesk]

Wilt's advanced stats look good:

.248 WS/48 compared to .208 for Shaq
26.1 PER compared to 24.6 for Kareem
15.8 AST% compared to 12.1 for Hakeem
54.7 TS% compared to 47.1 for Russell
19.4 TRB% compared to 18.5 for Duncan
93.9 DWS compared to 60.5 for M. Malone

:bowdown:

[WayOfWade]

He's really good, but just isn't that efficient at what he does

[LoneyROY7]

To counter balance how well he measures in the c0ck department.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Sacrificed personal stats that dont mean anything for DEM RANGS BABY
5 >1.5*

[ISHGoat]

Because kobe's greatness is a product of his circumstances (i.e. being on the right team, with the right teammate and the right coach), not his impact on the game.

Advanced stats measures IMPACT, in which Kobe is equivalent players like tmac, AI, vince carter, and the other swingmen of his era.

Needless to say, kobetards love to cite individual examples where a worse player ranks higher than a better player in some advanced stat. What they do not know is that by doing this, they are actually supporting advanced stats, since if your only argument against them is providing examples of outliers, you have already lost.

[TheMarkMadsen]

David Robins PER = 26.18

Chris Paul PER = 25.63


KAJ PER = 24.58

Magic Johnson PER = 24.11


WS/48

2015 Wizards

John Wall = .132

Marcin Gortat = .168

Paul Pierce = .138

Kris Humphries = .134


these advanced stats are pretty good at determining the better player..

[Round Mound]

Because kobe's greatness is a product of his circumstances (i.e. being on the right team, with the right teammate and the right coach), not his impact on the game.

Advanced stats measures IMPACT, in which Kobe is equivalent players like tmac, AI, vince carter, and the other swingmen of his era.

This. :applause: If not so, you go by rings, then Hondo > Kobe. Right? Nope!

[kennethgriffin]

because he takes shots these leaders in advanced stats would end up shooting poorly at and makes it look decent


for instance... if lebron, jordan or any other high efficiency player took the kinds of looks kobe does on the regular. their fg% would be in the low 30's

kobe takes an inordinate amount of long range off balance highly contested impossible shots

and he hits them on average for 45% career


then his 3pt percentage which is slightly ahead of jordan and slightly behind lebrons...


if lebron or jordan took as many high volume highly contested pull up in your face threes or fall away threes... their percentage would be in the low 20's

while kobe hits at 33-34% ( which translates to 50%+ in terms of output )


so in the end kobe does his thing and its allot funner to watch. and it has translated into a 5 for 7 finals record and all time GOAT 5-6 resume



/thread

[AnaheimLakers24]

This. :applause: If not so, you go by rings, then Hondo > Kobe. Right? Nope!
Glad old farts like you are close to death

[ISHGoat]

David Robins PER = 26.18

Chris Paul PER = 25.63


KAJ PER = 24.58

Magic Johnson PER = 24.11


WS/48

2015 Wizards

John Wall = .132

Marcin Gortat = .168

Paul Pierce = .138

Kris Humphries = .134


these advanced stats are pretty good at determining the better player..

Right on que.

[TheMarkMadsen]

2015 Cavs playoff WS/48

Lebron = .173

Tristan = .167

I guess Lebron was barely more impactful than TT in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

Kyrie Irving = .209

and Kyrie was the best player on the team when he played

ADVANCED STATS :bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Right on que.

and as expected you'll have nothing to say, nothing to counter whats being said

if advance stats >>> then D Rob >>>> Kareem

[ISHGoat]

2015 Cavs playoff WS/48

Lebron = .173

Tristan = .167

I guess Lebron was barely more impactful than TT in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

Kyrie Irving = .209

and Kyrie was the best player on the team when he played

ADVANCED STATS :bowdown:

Instead of posting one advanced stat which supports your argument, how about increasing the sample size posting all of them (PER, BPM, WS48 Vorp) for the entire top 10? Entire top 20? I dare you to do it.

[ralph_i_el]

2015 Cavs playoff WS/48

Lebron = .173

Tristan = .167

I guess Lebron was barely more impactful than TT in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

Kyrie Irving = .209

and Kyrie was the best player on the team when he played

ADVANCED STATS :bowdown:

sample size :facepalm

And Wall looks worse in this advanced stat because it doesn't account for:
-How easy the looks are that he's getting his teammates (also responsible for their HIGH stats)
-secondary assists, assists on 3's, and assists leading to fouls.....all of which wall was top-5 in last season (I believe top 3, but I don't have the stats on hand)

[Round Mound]

and as expected you'll have nothing to say, nothing to counter whats being said

if advance stats >>> then D Rob >>>> Kareem

Kareem played till he was like 41 too many years pased his prime. Do Kareem`s PER ages 21-32 prime vs D-Rob`s ages 24-32 prime and also do play-off PER and Kareem is over > D-rob.

[AirFederer]

Which metric is most accurate to determine rent?

[Legends66NBA7]

sample size :facepalm

And Wall looks worse in this advanced stat because it doesn't account for:
-How easy the looks are that he's getting his teammates (also responsible for their HIGH stats)
-secondary assists, assists on 3's, and assists leading to fouls.....all of which wall was top-5 in last season (I believe top 3, but I don't have the stats on hand)

Low efficiency and high turnovers ?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Instead of posting one advanced stat which supports your argument, how about increasing the sample size posting all of them (PER, BPM, WS48 Vorp) for the entire top 10? Entire top 20? I dare you to do it.

oh so now ws/48 doesn't mean anything.. :oldlol:

David Robinson

PER = 26

Highest VORP (da fucc :oldlol: ) = 10.6

WS/48 = .250

BPM = 7.4

vs

Kareem

PER = 24.6

Highest VORP = 10.5

WS/48 = .228

BPM = 5.8

Robinson >>>>> KAJ, anybody who disagrees is a KAJTARD and only counts rings

[Dr Seuss]

sample size :facepalm

And Wall looks worse in this advanced stat because it doesn't account for:
-How easy the looks are that he's getting his teammates (also responsible for their HIGH stats)
-secondary assists, assists on 3's, and assists leading to fouls.....all of which wall was top-5 in last season (I believe top 3, but I don't have the stats on hand)

cant the exact same thing be argued for kobe. from a non pg position, he has always been one of the top players in assists. many of his teammates had career years next to him, and when he does indeed look for the open man, they get uber easy looks due to all the attention he gathered defensively.

[TheMarkMadsen]

sample size :facepalm

And Wall looks worse in this advanced stat because it doesn't account for:
-How easy the looks are that he's getting his teammates (also responsible for their HIGH stats)
-secondary assists, assists on 3's, and assists leading to fouls.....all of which wall was top-5 in last season (I believe top 3, but I don't have the stats on hand)

nope context is not allowed, you don't get to explain the actual intricacies of basketball..

advanced stats >>>

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't know what you cats are talking about. I skimmed through all of those advanced stats and Kobe does pretty well in them.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kareem played till he was like 41 too many years pased his prime. Do Kareem`s PER ages 21-32 prime vs D-Rob`s ages 24-32 prime and also do play-off PER and Kareem is over > D-rob.

so its fair to compare advanced stats of Lebron and Kobe when Kobe is 37 and Lebron just turned 30..

but not fair to compare D Rob and Kareem..

how do you morons not see this double standard...

each advanced stat I post that doesn't match your "advanced stats are soooo important" you guys have some type of context to explain why things are..

but isn't that the same thing you make fun of Kobe fans for doing when advanced stats are brought up.. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Mark Madsen, stop being the most annoying dense mother****er there is... NOTHING is always on point, but your sample sizes and isolated examples suck.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Mark Madsen, stop being the most annoying dense mother****er there is... NOTHING is always on point, but your sample sizes and isolated examples suck.

I compared two entire careers

a playoff run

and entire regular season

I guess those are "isolated examples" :oldlol:

don't be mad at me that these advanced stats you all want to worship clearly don't show much about who the better player is... :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

David Robinson

PER = 26

VORP = 80.9

WS/48 = .250

BPM = 7.4

vs

Shaq

PER = 26

VORP = 74

WS/48 = .208

BPM = 5.0


David Robinson :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ralph_i_el]

Low efficiency and high turnovers ?
Yeah, everyone knows about that. I'm say that he's highly regarded even though his metrics are bad, because of stuff the metrics don't capture.

No metric is perfect, obviously.

[ralph_i_el]

nope context is not allowed, you don't get to explain the actual intricacies of basketball..

advanced stats >>>
Oh come on. Kobe stans are the prime ignorers of context and you know it.

[poido123]

Games aren't played on stat boards.


The end

[ralph_i_el]

Games aren't played on stat boards.


The end

Stats are useless, which is why all the best franchises ignore them :facepalm

[KG215]

[B]kobe takes an inordinate amount of long range off balance highly contested impossible shots

In other words, Kobe's shot selection is shit compared to players like Jordan and LeBron? Which would also mean his basketball IQ isn't on par with Jordan's and LeBron's.

Good to know.

[catch24]

Oh come on. Kobe stans are the prime ignorers of context and you know it.

That has nothing to do with what he said.

You're applying context for your guy, yet jumping on Kobe fans for doing the same thing.

...Surely you can see the double standard here. :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Oh come on. Kobe stans are the prime ignorers of context and you know it.

didn't you make this thread about "how overrated is Kobe"

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384840

and the only evidence you used in your OP was


Kobe's BEST season in terms of Win Shares is the 100th highest winshare total of all time. That was 05-06....and Chauncey Billups had more WS that year. Even if we sort it for just players who had a >25% USG% Kobe's best season is 51st all time.

Sorting for >25% usg (high usage players) and 30+mpg, Kobe's most efficient season (By ts%) isn't even top 100.....it's 175th

The one area where Kobe IS historically significant in is usage%. 3 of the 20 highest usage seasons on record belong to Kobe.


fuccing win shares lmao..

sure does look like a bunch of random advanced stats you are using to support your argument..

but now when I use WS.. you wanna bring up context..

hypocritical as fucc man

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Dr Seuss]

In other words, Kobe's shot selection is shit compared to players like Jordan and LeBron? Which would also mean his basketball IQ isn't on par with Jordan's and LeBron's.

Good to know.

and in more words, you can say a "high IQ" shot selection doesnt have effect on a winning impact, as seen by kobes 5 championships in 19 years.

good to know.

[Young X]

oh so now ws/48 doesn't mean anything.. :oldlol:

David Robinson

PER = 26

Highest VORP (da fucc :oldlol: ) = 10.6

WS/48 = .250

BPM = 7.4

vs

Kareem

PER = 24.6

Highest VORP = 10.5

WS/48 = .228

BPM = 5.8

Robinson >>>>> KAJ, anybody who disagrees is a KAJTARD and only counts ringsThose are regular season stats dude. Robinson might be one of the GOAT regular season players. Nothing crazy about him being that high, he was extremely productive on both ends.

Plus Kareem played for like 20 years so he has more seasons (further from his prime) weighing his career numbers down. Same thing with Kobe's '96-'99 and post Achilles injury seasons.

Advanced stats are cool, but they're more useful to look at for teams instead of players. They shouldn't be relied on too heavily or replace watching the game.

[catch24]

Kobe has pretty good advanced stats BTW.

He led the '10 Lakers in RAPM, and that's the year trolls claim Pau Gasol had more impact than Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Those are regular season stats dude. Robinson might be one of the GOAT regular season players. Nothing crazy about him being that high, he was extremely productive on both ends.

Plus Kareem played for like 20 years so he has more seasons (further from his prime) weighing his career numbers down. Same thing with Kobe's '96-'99 and post Achilles injury seasons.

Advanced stats are cool, but they're more useful to look at for teams instead of players. They shouldn't be relied on too heavily or replace watching the game.

He ignores context, though... Robinson at his peak probably a top 5 regular season performer ever.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Robinson might be one of the GOAT regular season players.

lol not better than Magic, Kareem, Bird, Hakeem, Jordan, Wilt, Duncan, Lebron etc etc


Plus Kareem played for like 20 years so he has more seasons (further from his prime) weighing his career numbers down. Same thing with Kobe's '96-'99 and post Achilles injury seasons.

agreed but people love to compare half retired Kobe to players still in their prime.. but I agree


Advanced stats are cool, but they're more useful to look at for teams instead of players. They shouldn't be relied on too heavily or replace watching the game

yup agreed

[KG215]

and in more words, you can say a "high IQ" shot selection doesnt have effect on a winning impact, as seen by kobes 5 championships in 19 years.

good to know.
:confusedshrug:

He mentioned Jordan in his post as someone that didn't take as many, essentially, stupid shots as Kobe, and he managed to win 6 rings in which he was clearly his team's best player all 6 times. So maybe high IQ shot selection does have effect on a winning impact.

[tpols]

getting more stats doesn't necessarily mean you have more impact..


99% of the game is played without the ball
-Bill Russell


You're ignoring how much an individual can enhance or minimize the impact of his own teammates. It's individual impact + effect on combined teammate's impact. You're pretty much leaving out half of what makes a player impactful.


Jason Kidd's individual advanced stats for example are pretty bad for an MVP candidate.. why? Because they ignore everything he does to make others around him better. And I know I know, kobe's a big mean jerk who isn't at all like Kidd, but imo, he is in a different way. His mid/long range game is perfect compliment to big men, giving them ample space to maneuver while also sucking the defense away from the paint.. If you put a guy that has no midrange game or long range game and scores mainly by bullrushing the paint for instance, said player may put up more stats, but he'll diminish the quality of his teammates, and thus lower the ceiling that the whole team is capable of reaching.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, everyone knows about that. I'm say that he's highly regarded even though his metrics are bad, because of stuff the metrics don't capture.

No metric is perfect, obviously.

I can agree with that. I wouldn't use certain advanced stats to guage players like ORTG and DRTG because they are really used for teams.

[ArbitraryWater]

Robinson '91-'96 is a better regular season performer than Duncan, Hakeem (made his $ in the PS) and perhaps Bird/Magic, to me.

[ArbitraryWater]

getting more stats doesn't necessarily mean you have more impact..


99% of the game is played without the ball
-Bill Russell


You're ignoring how much an individual can enhance or minimize the impact of his own teammates. It's individual impact + effect on combined teammate's impact. You're pretty much leaving out half of what makes a player impactful.


Jason Kidd's individual advanced stats for example are pretty bad for an MVP candidate.. why? Because they ignore everything he does to make others around him better. And I know I know, kobe's a big mean jerk who isn't at all like Kidd, but imo, he is in a different way. His mid/long range game is perfect compliment to big men, giving them ample space to maneuver while also sucking the defense away from the paint.. If you put a guy that has no midrange game or long range game and scores mainly by bullrushing the paint for instance, said player may put up more stats, but he'll diminish the quality of his teammates, and thus lower the ceiling that the whole team is capable of reaching.

:roll:

no, we're not.. that quote by Russell has good intentions (although he loves to say shit like that a bit too often) but it was obvious that people totally **** up its meaning

[livinglegend]

Because kobe's greatness is a product of his circumstances (i.e. being on the right team, with the right teammate and the right coach), not his impact on the game.

Advanced stats measures IMPACT, in which Kobe is equivalent players like tmac, AI, vince carter, and the other swingmen of his era.

Needless to say, kobetards love to cite individual examples where a worse player ranks higher than a better player in some advanced stat. What they do not know is that by doing this, they are actually supporting advanced stats, since if your only argument against them is providing examples of outliers, you have already lost.

:applause: :applause: :applause:


:djparty :djparty

[Round Mound]

so its fair to compare advanced stats of Lebron and Kobe when Kobe is 37 and Lebron just turned 30..

but not fair to compare D Rob and Kareem..

how do you morons not see this double standard...

each advanced stat I post that doesn't match your "advanced stats are soooo important" you guys have some type of context to explain why things are..

but isn't that the same thing you make fun of Kobe fans for doing when advanced stats are brought up.. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Nop its no fair i agree with you thats why i think Kobe ages 21-34 was his prime and one should compare him to others only for those healthy and prime years. His career is pretty much over. You can compare it to Lebrons age 21-30 vs Kobe 21-34. Lebron has got 3 or 4 more years of prime, then he will slowly dimish his level of play aswell. Lebron is just a better player than Kobe. The only thing Kobe is better at Lebron is at long range shooting and mid range shooting. Other than that: Lebron is a better more efficient scorer, higher FG%, better driver and finisher, better rebounder, better passer, better creator of offense, better defender both team and individual defense...just a better player. And thats not something to feel bad on. Kobe was great. 2nd or 3rd best shooting guard ever. Kobe is still in the top 20-25 goats statistically, thats not bad at all.

[Marchesk]

And thats not something to feel bad of. Kobe was great. 2nd or 3rd best shooting guard ever. Kobe is still in the top 20-25 goats statistically, thats not bad all.

Kobe or Barkley all-time, who you got?

[Round Mound]

Kobe or Barkley all-time, who you got?

"Prime" Barkley ofcourse (not the one in Houston) he has more IMPACT on the game. Barkley should be considered a top 10-15 player of all time in terms of advanced stats. Barkley was a better scorer than Kobe, a better rebounder, a better passer (relative to position ofcourse), better team defender and stealer, better shot blocker and better big game play-off performer (not just points but being everywhere on the court). Barkley was too much of a missmatch in his prime years. Kobe was ofcourse a better shooter (he is a SG ofcourse): ft shooter, far range or mid range shooter, and a better individual defender 1 on 1. Thats about it. These are players that i think where better than Barkley in his prime in terms of IMPACT (in terms of skill no one touches Barkley at the PF position and Kobe is probably a Top 10 player skill wise too but skill is not more important than IMPACT):

1-MJ
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Shaq
5-Hakeem
6-Duncan
7-Moses
8-Bird
9-Magic
10-Big 0
11-L James
12-Elgin
13-West
14-Dr J (only if you include ABA years)

Thats about it.

[Psileas]

It's simple. Both Kobe and his fans put too much stock in scoring and not much else. He's not statistically elite in as many fields as the players who are ranked over him. Neither does he care about stuff like committing too many TO's, which bring some of his adv.stats down. To be honest, even most advanced metrics do depend a lot on scoring (and scoring efficiency), but from one point on, most elite players are great scorers anyway, so it takes something more to make the extra difference.
Btw, the relatively few elite players who weren't elite scorers are screwed by many advanced stats even more so than Kobe.

[kennethgriffin]

if analytics meant anything.. guys like wilted chamberlain, bran flakes, fat butt barkley, fail man malone and many others like them would have winning records in the nba finals



"stats don't tell the whole story" - everyone with a brain




if kobe cared about his efficiency .. sure his fg% would be better and his PER would be higher etc... but he would have less killer instinct, be more fragile, easly perturbed and hesitant. which would make him "wilt" under pressure and flake like bran when it matters most





DERP!




"you can protect your fieldgoal percentage. but it won't protect your finals record" - kennethgriffin

[Round Mound]

if analytics meant anything.. guys like wilted chamberlain, bran flakes, fat butt barkley, fail man malone and many others like them would have winning records in the nba finals




if kobe cared about his efficiency .. sure his fg% would be better and his PER would be higher etc... but he would have less killer instinct, be more fragile, easly perturbed and hesitant. which would make him "wilt" under pressure and flake like bran when it matters most






His PER is lower because he simply isnt as dominant, doesnt have the impact and isnt as efficient as other nba greats. That doesnt make him a bad player either he just isn`t as good as other scorers thats all. Great scorers score alot taking the least amount of shots: they have a high score per shot taken. Unless ofcourse, if you think Allen Iverson was a better scorer than Bryant was. Not even close, Kobe was way more efficient in the same way other players where more efficient than Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[ISHGoat]

youre the only person on planet earth that thinks barkley is better than kobe


just shut the f*ck up you stupid c*nt

:roll:


given you know how they turn out as players, not how their career turns out, who would you draft first, barkley or kobe?

i take barkley 10 times out of 10, as does every intelligent human in the basketball world.

by the way, you sound upset bro

[JT123]

youre the only person on planet earth that thinks barkley is better than kobe


just shut the f*ck up you stupid c*nt

:roll:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/112172/2396165-morganfreemanhemad.jpg

[Round Mound]

They are both legends. If you go by rings then you`ll say Kobe is better than Chuck: then so Shaq > Kobe cause he won 3 as the man and 2 for kobe as the man. Also Hondo and other legend Celtics > Kobe aswell if yo go by rings.

If you go by impact, efficiency, dominance and advanced stats....then you gotta go with Chuck.

[I<3NBA]

Kobe's not about those advanced metrics

Kobe's all about the eye test, which as everyone knows, can't be fooled.

[knicksman]

Theres no stat more advance than 2/6 and 5/7

[Round Mound]

And i don`t think Kobe measures poorly in advanced metrics he just isnt top 10 of all time like many fans say and for a long time have been forcing you to believe. He is around the top 20-25 greatest players of all time and thats not bad at all.

[sportjames23]

because he takes shots these leaders in advanced stats would end up shooting poorly at and makes it look decent


for instance... if lebron, jordan or any other high efficiency player took the kinds of looks kobe does on the regular. their fg% would be in the low 30's

kobe takes an inordinate amount of long range off balance highly contested impossible shots

and he hits them on average for 45% career


then his 3pt percentage which is slightly ahead of jordan and slightly behind lebrons...


if lebron or jordan took as many high volume highly contested pull up in your face threes or fall away threes... their percentage would be in the low 20's

while kobe hits at 33-34% ( which translates to 50%+ in terms of output )


so in the end kobe does his thing and its allot funner to watch. and it has translated into a 5 for 7 finals record and all time GOAT 5-6 resume



/thread


And you don't see the problem with him taking dumb shots that he does?

[f0und]

because his entire game is based on shooting a high volume of shots to score alot of points. and he's not particularly great at it either. not bad, but nothing that speaks of greatness. and thats pretty much it. fortunately for him, he's had great success because he got blessed with circumstances that couldnt be any more favorable. its allowed him to hide his weaknesses.