Could Pippen have played PG and averaged 11 apg?

[3ball]

It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.
.

[Papaya Petee]

No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/Q7f0-F.gif


No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already



Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm

[AnaheimLakers24]

No.

6>5>1.5*

[inclinerator]

what a coincidence 11 assist 24 games

then 11 assist in the finals 5 games

= he could average 11 assist for the whole season

[GrapeApe]

Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.

[dubeta]

Could MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, Like Pippen did multiple times without Jordan?

[3ball]

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.


Wade is a better passer than Pippen too.. :confusedshrug: .. Similar to MJ, Wade had a PG-level handle and passing ability, whereas Pippen did not.

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade or MJ, whose handle was considered elite for guards.. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

In Wade's case, given his pg-level handle and passing ability, it's not surprise he had a great stretch where he put up high assist and scoring numbers.. Otoh, Pippen has no such stretch... (And btw, nobody's stretch is anywhere near as long as MJ's 24 games - not Wade's, not Lebron's, not Westbrook's - their stretches are literally half as long... And only Westbrook's included a triple-double stretch, which was still half as long as MJ's).

But back to the point of the thread - Pippen's passing ability isn't anywhere near MJ's, due to his non-point guard-level handle and inability to average 11 apg during ANY stretch, let alone a stretch twice as long as Lebron, Wade or Westbrook ever had (or in the Finals).

[Papaya Petee]

Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:

[3ball]

Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:
That's not what the OP said - the OP said that Pippen could never start at point guard like MJ, because he doesn't have a point guard-level handle like MJ did.. Pippen also isn't capable of averaging 11 apg over ANY stretch, let alone 24 games like MJ.

You're forgetting that MJ's 24 games is twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade and Westbrook averaged that many assists - their stretches of 11 apg were half as long as MJ's - but they also had a pg-level handle... Pippen doesn't have a PG-level handle or the ability to average 11 apg... Therefore, he's nowhere near the passer MJ was..

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade, MJ, or Westbrook, whose handle was considered elite for guards.. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

[bizil]

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles and pace to his game. He would have been a 6'8 PG would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well. So u wouldn't have to do cross matchups like the Lakers did with Magic. But to get 11 assists a night, I think u have to be great at PASSING GUYS OPEN!

In other words, threading the needle, no look passes, and literally making guys be open WHO HAVE NO BUSINESS being open. Pippen wasn't really prolific in that realm of passing to get 10-11 apg year after year. Could I see Pip averaging 10 dimes in a given season? Sure! But I don't see him going any higher than that.

If Pip played PG, I see him getting a Paytonesque 20-22 points, 8-9 dimes, and world class lockdown defense. But Pippen could also add 8 boards a night to that. Guys like Pippen and Payton were great passers, but are on that second tier behind guys like Magic, Big O, Nash, Zeke, Kidd, and Stockton.

[MP.Trey]

Could Jordan? No. At least not consistently.

[3ball]

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles


Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble - to have an elite handle, a player must be able to break guys down off the dribble like isiah thomas, tim hardaway, Wade or Jordan.. or guys like grant hill or michael ray richardson.

pippen didnt have elite handle like these guys.. i would say Pip's handle was above-average for a guard at best - but nowhere near elite - you need breakdown ability for that.





He would have been a 6'8 PG would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well.


Other than the 1998 ECF when pippen guarded the slowest pg of all time (mark jackson), when did pippen ever guard a smaller pg?.. MJ did it all the time, but Pippen never did.

Pippen almost always guarded the other team's SF... It was MJ who guarded the other teams PG or SG, whoever was better.. MJ was the quicker player and he was a SG, so guarding PG's was far more feasible for him than Pippen.

[3ball]

Could Jordan? No. At least not consistently.


You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his first-ever run at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif


^^^ this is from the beginning of the OP video.. Apparently, MJ scored half his team's 4th quarter points in 1988.. That makes sense since Pippen and Grant were rookies that didn't start (they only played 20 minutes per game each) and their averages were 8/4/2 and 8/6/1, respectively.

In 1989, Pippen and Grant improved to 14/6/3 and 12/9/2, but Pippen's 14 ppg wasn't much for a 2nd option and he was wildly inconsistent - overall, the team was worse talent-wise because they'd lost Charles Oakley.. Consequently, they only won 47 games in 1989 (less than 1988) and only managed a 6-seed going into the playoffs.

However, MJ played better than any player ever has in the 1989 playoffs, which allowed his underdog team to make the ECF - he averaged 40/6/8 against a 57-win Cleveland team, who had the #2 defense and 3 all-stars (Daughtery, Nance, Price) plus 20 ppg budding superstar Ron Harper.. In the 2nd Round, MJ averaged 36/9/8 against the Knicks... In the ECF, the Bulls fell to Detroit, despite MJ's 30/6/7 against the "Jordan Rules" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s) and greatest defense of all time, featuring All-NBA defenders Rodman and Dumars..

Unfortunately for MJ, Pippen only averaged 10/7 on 40% in that series and provided very little help - this would become a trend - in 1990 ECF, Pippen disappeared in Game 7 of ECF.. In the 1996 Finals, he was abysmal with 15 ppg on 34%, which was similar to the 1998 Finals, where he averaged 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games.. During the 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat), Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8%.
.

[kshutts1]

You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his first-ever run at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would.
Provide EVIDENCE where Pippen played PG and didn't average 11 apg, over an adequate sample size.

[kshutts1]

No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already
Literally word for word, this is the best answer I've ever seen in any thread. It covers every base.

Could Pippen? No
Could Jordan? No
Jordan did once? No he didn't; sample size too small
Shut up already

Love it.

[kshutts1]

Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble - to have an elite handle, a player must be able to break guys down off the dribble like isiah thomas, tim hardaway, Wade or Jordan.. or guys like grant hill or michael ray richardson.

pippen didnt have elite handle like these guys.. i would say Pip's handle was above-average for a guard at best - but nowhere near elite - you need breakdown ability for that.



Other than the 1998 ECF when pippen guarded the slowest pg of all time (mark jackson), when did pippen ever guard a smaller pg?.. MJ did it all the time, but Pippen never did.

Pippen almost always guarded the other team's SF... It was MJ who guarded the other teams PG or SG, whoever was better.. MJ was the quicker player and he was a SG, so guarding PG's was far more feasible for him than Pippen.
Agree that Pippen didn't have an elite handle, which is why he couldn't average 11 APG, short of gunning for assists. He was a little too rigid in his motions, for a PG, to really "jitter-bug" around and wreak havoc. What he would do, as a floor general, would be to set up the offense, and use his superior height and length to look over the D and make other passes that traditionally sized PGs could not make. Still wouldn't average 11 APG though. As a full-time PG I'd see Pippen doing more like 20/6/9 with elite D.

As for the guarding aspect... :biggums: John. Stockton.

[knicksman]

Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:

Bro, you cant be the qb and receiver at the same time so just because jordan prefers to be the scorer doesnt mean he cant be a pg.

[plowking]

Jordan isn't a top 5 passer at his position, let alone better than Pippen.

[Kblaze8855]

Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.

[Marchesk]

^ Would Pippen have made a great PG from early in his career, or was his stint at PG on the TB successful due to a combination of the right team and his huge amount of experience?

And it makes you wonder how we would regard Pippen if that team had won a title.

[Kblaze8855]

Correction on my Riley comment. He had a big game but only 4 assists:



Against the Magic, he collected 25 points, 17 rebounds
one shy of his career high seven assists and no
turnovers in 32 minutes.
Against the Heat on Wednesday, the ageless warrior
contributed 26 points on 9-of-14 shooting, six rebounds,
four assists and five steals in 34 minutes.
'Scottie absolutely dominated that game,' Riley
marveled. 'He did everything he had to do to get his
team over the top.'

At 6-8, Pippen is bigger than just about everybody he
matches up with at point guard. He has been effective
posting up and scoring or drawing the double-team and
finding the open man. Occasionally he gets burned
defensively by a quicker foe, but the Blazers have almost
always gotten the better of the matchup, and his defense
help and court leadership is invaluable.





Pippen was one of those players who simply generated good chemistry. I'd take that over any number from my point guard.

[swagga]

Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.

don't know how many people really understand your point, but good effort. :applause:

[3ball]

^ Would Pippen have made a great PG from early in his career, or was his stint at PG on the TB successful due to a combination of the right team and his huge amount of experience?

And it makes you wonder how we would regard Pippen if that team had won a title.
Agreed - Pippen's wasn't asked to do anything on the Blazers other than be a steady player that didn't screw anything up.

He wasn't asked to beat his man off the dribble and get in the lane to create.. He just stood at the top of the key and swung the ball from one side to the other - he was super-old and averaged 11 ppg and 5 apg as a Blazer - but yeah, to some people, that means he would've been an elite PG in his prime like MJ was.

The funny thing is that even in his prime, Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble in the halfcourt or create his shot that well - for the most part, the lane had to already be kind of open or the defense had to be shifting and produce a semi-open lane for him to drive..
.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/6yNmoX.gif


It's funny how you guys seek out quotes from players and coaches who say nice things about Scottie.

Scottie is the only guy who requires that - we don't need quotes for Barkley, Malone, Stockton, McHale, Wade, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, you name it...

But for some reason, the quotes come out when we start talking about Pippen.. Could it be because his offense was literally anemic on many occasion and he couldn't create his own shot?... Yup... That has a super-ton to do with it.

[knicksman]

don't know how many people really understand your point, but good effort. :applause:

Ironic coming from a bran stan. Lol

[sdot_thadon]

No, especially not in the triangle. Not many players can. As stated throughout the thread, MJ couldn't either. :coleman:

[jlip]

Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score...

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats?

^This^

Also I'll allow Pippen's teammates to confirm what Kblaze just said:

[I]Scottie was not only a great player, but a great teammate as well

[dubeta]

Jordan averaged 3.5 assists a game from 1996-1998 :lol

Shaq-esque

[97 bulls]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/6yNmoX.gif


It's funny how you guys seek out quotes from players and coaches who say nice things about Scottie.

Scottie is the only guy who requires that - we don't need quotes for Barkley, Malone, Stockton, McHale, Wade, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, you name it...

But for some reason, the quotes come out when we start talking about Pippen..
You use quotes all the time in an effort to justify your point.


Could it be because his offense was literally anemic on many occasion and he couldn't create his own shot?... Yup... That has a super-ton to do with it.
The example you use is horrible. Pippen tried to isolate his man and Kukoc wouldn't leave that area which forced him into taking a desperation shot.

[julizaver]

It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.
.

Pippen could not played PG (of course he is not at MJ skill level) with great success - he could fulfill the position for some periods if needed but this is not his natural position. MJ could of course and still be among the best players on floor.
The Bulls got another forward who could play PG and his name is Tony Kukoc. He played PG in Europe for real and was chosen 3 time European player of the year prior to his NBA debut. When at Bulls he was used as PF and was told to gain 30 pounds. But PF position was not for Tony and he never played PF in Europe or with Yugoslavian/Croatia team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.

[plowking]

Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.

He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.

[Rocketswin2013]

Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.

Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.

[tpols]

3ball constantly hating on bron for his stat padding through ball domination leading to losing and acting like MJ wasn't doing the exact same thing in 89

:yaohappy:

[juju151111]

Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.
The offense was already bad thats why they switched Mj there and they made they made it to the ecf with Mj averaging 8 asts the whole playoffs. Mj led the bulls in the playoffs in asts in 88,89,90,91,93

[plowking]

Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.

Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.

[97 bulls]

He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.
What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.

[plowking]

What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.

Sure, if you want to sum it up like that, than Jordan did even less.

[juju151111]

Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.
Please Mj led his team in asts in 88,89,90,91,93 in 5he playoffs

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.

Usage rate does NOT show how much time a player has the ball in their hands. Lebron and Wade have had the ball in their hands in terms of clock time WAY more than Jordan did. When you have the ball in your hands that much as a supserstar, and are involved in multiple P&R situations per possession, you are going to rack up assists regardless, because these guys are just that good and will make things happen.

And yes, he is a better passer than Wade. Jordan has thrown fullcourt baseball passes right on the money, halfcourt look-away alley-oops, and other passes Wade hasn't. At the very least, there is ZERO evidence for suggesting Wade is a better passer aside from his apg numbers, which, again, are skewed by how much he dominated the ball from '06-'10.

EDIT: And both Wade and James' assist numbers are helped relative to Jordan's due to not having another 6+ apg guy on the same team doing a lot of handling. That's why Wade's apg dropped from 6.5 to 4.6 Lebron's first season in Miami, and why Lebron's dropped from 8.6 to 7.0 that same year.

[guy]

Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.

[sdot_thadon]

Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.
What's so overrated about it if you don't mind?

[kshutts1]

Overrated because it's entirely dependent upon someone else finishing a play.

Dunno how to track it, but would be better to see how many "assist opportunities" a player generated, rather than how many of those shots his teammates made.

Edit: Would also be nice to see "points generated", that includes FTs, 2p and 3p shots that were the result of a pass, plus the actual points said player scored.

[guy]

What's so overrated about it if you don't mind?

Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.

[ClipperRevival]

Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.

Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.

[bizil]

Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.

Great post! For starters, some people confuse PG with point forward. For most of his career, Pippen was a point forward. But on Portland, he was ACTUALLY a PG. The backcourt was Pip at PG and Steve Smith at SG. From there, they had Detlef or Bonzi Wells start at the SF. And Pip did a great job, especially considering his age.

If a peak Pippen played as a big PG at his peak, I'm convinced he would be capable of getting 21-22 points, 8-9 dimes, and 7-8 boards a night. U have your point forward kind of players like Bird, Odom, Kukoc, etc. who can't really play the PG spot. Then u have the guys like Bron, Pip, and G Hill who could EASILY play the PG spot straight up! That's means both offensively and even defensively. Would that be their ideal position? Maybe not. Because all three guys were freakish athletes in the open court and great finishers.

So them playing as a point forward allows them more flexibility. BUT if they had to play as PG's straight up the majority of their careers, I'm CONVINCED all three would have been great HOF PG's. All three looked to pass first and make their teammates better.

[Young X]

Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.Clippers were the #1 offense in the league while being 3rd in assists in both '14 and '15.

CP3 also had the most hockey assists in the league for the past 2 seasons. They move the ball fine.

[bizil]

Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.

I agree! The reason why a dominant big or dominant wing is typically the lead dog IS BECAUSE alpha dog scoring is the most premium asset in basketball. So that means guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Barry, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Dream, etc. But I think pass first PG's who can ALSO dominate scoring are just as devastating or close. Those are guys like Magic and Isiah. The Big O was capable of that too, but he didn't really have the teams to do that.

I think CP3 is capable as well, but as u stated dominating the ball can be detrimental to winning a ring. When Isiah won rings, his dime numbers were a lot lower than his days of getting 12-13 assists a night. The ball movement was better AND he had a guy like Dumars who could be the playmaker as well. Which allowed Isiah to focus on scoring.

[ClipperRevival]

Clippers were the #1 offense in the league while being 3rd in assists in both '14 and '15.

CP3 also had the most hockey assists in the league for the past 2 seasons. They move the ball fine.

True. But the Clips offense is also a better regular season offense than playoff offense because they are based on an up tempo style and athleticism. Things slow down in the playoffs and they aren't as potent. Guys like Crawford, who have a lot of space to work with in the regular season, get bodied up and he loses his effectiveness. I'm a huge CP3 fan also. He might be THE most efficient PG ever in terms of maximizing each possession on a possession by possession basis.

But my post was based more on a general theory about the history of the game. Ball dominant PG's who lead a team seldom win rings. And part of that is because you don't want one guy dominating the ball too much. It can make the offense stagnant at times, even if your PG is great. However, I do think CP3 is great enough to win one as lead dog but his window is closing.

[ClipperRevival]

I agree! The reason why a dominant big or dominant wing is typically the lead dog IS BECAUSE alpha dog scoring is the most premium asset in basketball. So that means guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Barry, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Dream, etc. But I think pass first PG's who can ALSO dominate scoring are just as devastating or close. Those are guys like Magic and Isiah. The Big O was capable of that too, but he didn't really have the teams to do that.

I think CP3 is capable as well, but as u stated dominating the ball can be detrimental to winning a ring. When Isiah won rings, his dime numbers were a lot lower than his days of getting 12-13 assists a night. The ball movement was better AND he had a guy like Dumars who could be the playmaker as well. Which allowed Isiah to focus on scoring.

Another reason why wings or bigs win rings is because they can impact the game more. They are taller and most all time greats can play on both ends. They are just more impactful. As a small PG, there is only so much you can do when going up against 7 footers and 6'6" wings.

[Rocketswin2013]

Overrated because it's entirely dependent upon someone else finishing a play.

Dunno how to track it, but would be better to see how many "assist opportunities" a player generated, rather than how many of those shots his teammates made.

Edit: Would also be nice to see "points generated", that includes FTs, 2p and 3p shots that were the result of a pass, plus the actual points said player scored.
Offensive Win shares is literally the calculation of those things.

[Young X]

True. But the Clips offense is also a better regular season offense than playoff offense because they are based on an up tempo style and athleticism. Things slow down in the playoffs and they aren't as potent.With Paul on the court, their playoff offense has been just as good as it is in the regular season. They just collapse when he isn't in the game. That along with their average defense is why they haven't taken the next step. You have to be a 2 way team to win a title which the Clippers haven't been.

[bizil]

Another reason why wings or bigs win rings is because they can impact the game more. They are taller and most all time greats can play on both ends. They are just more impactful. As a small PG, there is only so much you can do when going up against 7 footers and 6'6" wings.

Yep. Small PG's don't have the versatility at 6'6 perimeter player does. For example, MJ could play PG, SG, and SF on both sides of the ball. Smaller PG's simply cant match that blend of size, versatility, and skill. That's why smaller guards are kind of like pound for pound smaller boxers.

Skill for skill, guys like Curry, AI, Iverson, and Paul are as good as anybody. But when u have guys 6'6 and up with the same kind of skill level, the bigger players have the edge.

[sdot_thadon]

Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.
I see where you're coming from but I don't agree that it makes it overrated. I'd add the overrated aspect of it is its not detailed enough. Needs hockey assists, maybe possible assists where guys blow the opportunity. All assists definitely aren't equal, you have some guys actively looking to setup teammates and run the offense. Then you have guys who are actively looking to shoot and improvise into assists as a last resort.

It's true though that dominant pg struggle in the postseason, probably just because the book has been out on it for decades now. Turn them into a scorer while not giving many passing lanes. Works like a charm. The worst thing is most teams with dominant playmakers lack the talent to compete without being spoonfed.

[plowking]

And yes, he is a better passer than Wade. Jordan has thrown fullcourt baseball passes right on the money, halfcourt look-away alley-oops, and other passes Wade hasn't. At the very least, there is ZERO evidence for suggesting Wade is a better passer aside from his apg numbers, which, again, are skewed by how much he dominated the ball from '06-'10.



No, he isn't. I watch the games. I have eyes. Jordan isn't the passer Wade is. In fact, I'd put him a tier lower. Wade is able to find guys on the court better, hit them in stride better, etc.

As far as SG's go, Oscar, Wade, and Ginobili are able to pull off passes Jordan couldn't. Jordan's passing isn't directly what made him a guy who could rack up assists. He was simply a great/the best playmaker, and his passing was a secondary product of that. Jordan never wowed me with passes like the guys above. His playmaking did, not his passes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.

Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.

Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM

Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.

[plowking]

Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.

Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM

Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.

Terrible post as usual.

Wade>Jordan as a passer.
Ginobili>Jordan as a passer.
Oscar>Jordan as a passer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Terrible post as usual.

Wade>Jordan as a passer.
Ginobili>Jordan as a passer.
Oscar>Jordan as a passer.

Repeating yourself like some drooling retard isn't an argument.

I mean, there's limited footage of Oscar, yet you're convinced he's a better passer. :oldlol:

[Duffy Pratt]

In league history, only 11 guys have ever managed 11 apg. Jason Kidd never did it, nor did Cousy, nor Walt Frazier, nor Pete Maravich. Doing it more than one season puts you in company with Oscar, Magic, Stockton, Nash, Chris Paul and Rondo. It's pretty silly to assume that anyone playing out of position would have been able to do it. So no, Pippin couldn't have done it, and neither could Jordan.

[MEB2kDeez]

In league history, only 11 guys have ever managed 11 apg. Jason Kidd never did it, nor did Cousy, nor Walt Frazier, nor Pete Maravich. Doing it more than one season puts you in company with Oscar, Magic, Stockton, Nash, Chris Paul and Rondo. It's pretty silly to assume that anyone playing out of position would have been able to do it. So no, Pippin couldn't have done it, and neither could Jordan.
Good post :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

pippen did play pg

he was the pg for chicago

he brought the ball up

he led the bulls in assists every year

wtf is OP smoking

[guy]

I see where you're coming from but I don't agree that it makes it overrated. I'd add the overrated aspect of it is its not detailed enough. Needs hockey assists, maybe possible assists where guys blow the opportunity. All assists definitely aren't equal, you have some guys actively looking to setup teammates and run the offense. Then you have guys who are actively looking to shoot and improvise into assists as a last resort.

It's true though that dominant pg struggle in the postseason, probably just because the book has been out on it for decades now. Turn them into a scorer while not giving many passing lanes. Works like a charm. The worst thing is most teams with dominant playmakers lack the talent to compete without being spoonfed.

High individual assist numbers are usually not conducive to championship basketball. How does that not make it overrated? Completely different from high individual scoring numbers since about half the championships included someone scoring 25+.

[Young X]

High individual assist numbers are usually not conducive to championship basketball. How does that not make it overrated? Completely different from high individual scoring numbers since about half the championships included someone scoring 25+.Why isn't it conducive to championship basketball? Just because it hasn't happened often?

People used to say the same thing about scoring champions winning titles until Jordan did it. In fact, besides Jordan and Shaq in 2000 I can't think of someone in recent history who led a championship team while being #1 in scoring.

[plowking]

Repeating yourself like some drooling retard isn't an argument.

I mean, there's limited footage of Oscar, yet you're convinced he's a better passer. :oldlol:

He averaged a near triple double for like 6 seasons... in an era where it was harder to record an assist.

You have Wade, Ginobili and Jordan... all of who I watched. Ginobili is the best passer of the lot, then Wade, then Jordan. It is pretty clear as well.

[guy]

Why isn't it conducive to championship basketball? Just because it hasn't happened often?

People used to say the same thing about scoring champions winning titles until Jordan did it. In fact, besides Jordan and Shaq in 2000 I can't think of someone in recent history who led a championship team while being #1 in scoring.

The teams that are usually the best passing teams don't seem to be the ones that are led by a high assist PG. CP3 and Nash teams are exceptions and they dont end up as the best team anyway.

They were wrong to say that about Jordan and I wasn't just limiting it to scoring champions. There was Kareem, Barry, and Bird before Jordan and Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Lebron after him. There's been plenty of championships led by high scorers especially since Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He averaged a near triple double for like 6 seasons... in an era where it was harder to record an assist.

You have Wade, Ginobili and Jordan... all of who I watched. Ginobili is the best passer of the lot, then Wade, then Jordan. It is pretty clear as well.

Averaging the most assists doesn't make you the better passer. Most of that stuff is dependent on role anyway (Oscar played PG many seasons, by the way).

I'll agree with Gino being the best passer of the bunch, but Wade isn't better than Jordan. Not visibly. Not statistically (when both got to play point). Not anything. Every 'nice pass' Wade has had, Jordan did it better. Just watch the video I linked.

MJ is setting the dinner table AND some with those dimes.

[plowking]

Averaging the most assists doesn't make you the better passer. Most of that stuff is dependent on role anyway (Oscar played PG many seasons, by the way).

I'll agree with Gino being the best passer of the bunch, but Wade isn't better than Jordan. Not visibly. Not statistically (when both got to play point). Not anything. Every 'nice pass' Wade has had, Jordan did it better. Just watch the video I linked.

MJ is setting the dinner table AND some with those dimes.

I don't have to. Wade capability wise, aesthetically, and statistically is the better passer.

I'd garner to say that even Kobe has an edge on Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't have to. Wade capability wise, aesthetically, and statistically is the better passer.

I'd garner to say that even Kobe has an edge on Jordan.

Not even remotely close. At least to anybody that watched both of them play.

Ditto for Kobe.

Post some of Wade's best passes and I'll gladly counter them with Jordan's :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

This kind of thread is why Im' basically leaving ISH for realgm. I actually want ot talk about basketball...not just humor and "argue" with idiots.

[plowking]

Not even remotely close. At least to anybody that watched both of them play.

Ditto for Kobe.

Post some of Wade's best passes and I'll gladly counter them with Jordan's :confusedshrug:

I don't need to. You can see Wade throwing inch perfect passes to Bron from 80-90 feet away. Probably one of the best oop passers of all time along with Kidd and Miller. At their peaks Wade was consistently getting more assists, and even when both were on the downward trend of their careers, once again Wade averaged more assists.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't need to. You can see Wade throwing inch perfect passes to Bron from 80-90 feet away. Probably one of the best oop passers of all time along with Kidd and Miller. At their peaks Wade was consistently getting more assists, and even when both were on the downward trend of their careers, once again Wade averaged more assists.

Instead of hearing you ramble, and repeat the same thing, it would be great to see some actual video evidence for what you claim.

Don't stunt, and post the gifs :whatever:

[plowking]

Instead of hearing you ramble, and repeat the same thing, it would be great to see some actual video evidence for what you claim.

Don't stunt, and post the gifs :whatever:

I would, but you're an idiot, so I won't.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to you, considering you've proven yourself on here to be an idiot. You're known as the guy who doesn't know what a double team is on here. :oldlol:

What will happen if I post the gifs/videos? You'll say, "nah, not close", and we'll both continue on our way. Me being right, and you being ignorant and stupid as always. :whatever:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would, but you're an idiot, so I won't.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to you, considering you've proven yourself on here to be an idiot. You're known as the guy who doesn't know what a double team is on here. :oldlol:

What will happen if I post the gifs/videos? You'll say, "nah, not close", and we'll both continue on our way. Me being right, and you being ignorant and stupid as always. :whatever:

Am I? That's news to me. :confusedshrug:

Quit being a pansy and just post the gifs. Not like you have anything better to do with your time; look at that post count. :eek:

[plowking]

Am I? That's news to me. :confusedshrug:

Quit being a pansy and just post the gifs. Not like you have anything better to do with your time; look at that post count. :eek:

Most racked up in high school and university first year in game threads. What is your excuse? :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

If he focused on getting 11 assists a game with a similar situation to MJ, when he was placed at point? Sure. He was as gifted of a playmaker as any forward in NBA history...averaging 21/8/7 playing as a 2nd option along MJ at his prime...now put Pippen on his own squad with a bunch of shooters and a big man that can score on the inside, there's no doubt he could have accomplished such a feat on a medicore team...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most racked up in high school and university first year in game threads. What is your excuse? :oldlol:

You were spending most of your time on message boards...during highschool? :oldlol: I always figured you for a nerd (that uptight persona of yours kinda gives it away)

Holla when you're ready to post something worth noting. K?

[julizaver]

If he focused on getting 11 assists a game with a similar situation to MJ, when he was placed at point? Sure. He was as gifted of a playmaker as any forward in NBA history...averaging 21/8/7 playing as a 2nd option along MJ at his prime...now put Pippen on his own squad with a bunch of shooters and a big man that can score on the inside, there's no doubt he could have accomplished such a feat on a medicore team...

Pippen went at Rockets (32 years old) with Hakeem and he was averaging 5.9 apg on 40 minutes of play.

Pippen was the perfect sidekick to Jordan. And both players benefited from that. Sadly he is either overated or underated depending on posters agenda.
I have watched hundreds of the Bulls games and although Pippen was very versatile I doubt he could do better job at PG then Jordan (even Kobe). Pippen played his natural position his whole career.
As I stated earlier in the thread Tony Kukoc could do the playmaking with greater success, but it would be hardly recognized by US fans, as they probably never watched him doing it. For them he would remain the talanted offensive player with great court vision, being their best player from the bench and always in the shadow of MJ, Pippen and Rodman.

[plowking]

You were spending most of your time on message boards...during highschool? :oldlol: I always figured you for a nerd (that uptight persona of yours kinda gives it away)

Holla when you're ready to post something worth noting. K?

Yep. The guy playing state level basketball was a basketball nerd. Just a 6'3 nerd who could windmill at 17. I'm sure you were doing cooler things. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

Yep. The guy playing state level basketball was a basketball nerd. Just a 6'3 nerd who could windmill at 17. I'm sure you were doing cooler things. :oldlol:
Probably rubbing one out to MJ's posters.

[sdot_thadon]

Probably rubbing one out to MJ's posters.

:yaohappy:

[hitmanyr2k]

Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.

Exactly.

[3ball]

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.



Pippen isn't capable of averaging 11 assists OR playing point guard because he can't break his man down off-the-dribble in the halfcourt and get consistent lane penetration the way every other every PG and double-digit assist player in history did as a standard.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen isn't capable of averaging 11 assists OR playing point guard because he can't break his man down off-the-dribble in the halfcourt and get consistent lane penetration the way every other every PG and double-digit assist player in history did as a standard.
Another reason he wouldn't is he wouldn't want to risk you calling him suboptimal, so he'd steer clear of it.

[catch24]

He wasn't the type of player to rack up 11+ assists a night. He actually played point in their title years, and even without Mike circa 1994 and most of 1995. If Scottie made an emphasis to pass the ball and quit playing defense, then sure. But that wouldn't have any benefit on the team, nor Scottie who was all about winning.


Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.

Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM

Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.

Wade is actually a really good passer. Probably in the same tier with MJ, but I agree with you that he's better. That video is basketball porn BTW :applause:

[GimmeThat]

I think if we were to simply bring out the comparisons of small forwards, and thus having T-Mac and Grant Hill being mentioned.

T-Mac while having arguably one of the best first step ever, was most likely going to have to carry the ball up once that move is made.

Grant Hill while being just about the same length, perhaps similar athleticism, had the ball handling skills where he may not cross by you completely, but the defender is also naturally shifted with him to stop the direct path for the basket. Which translated into him being the better assist man.

Lebron could probably cross by you and stop while keeping the dribble alive, but if this move were to made sense for him, it is only because he is physically strong enough for any shot attempt near the basket. hence you don't see the slashers going underneath the basket, but maybe if he ever played with any bigs who were smart enough to switch side offensively for the easy lay in.

as for Pippen, and the fact that I never watched him play much, he didn't seem to be the type of scorer who inherently made his teammates to be in better scoring position based on opposing pre-game coaching adjustments. I suppose point guards who had averaged decent amount of assist during their prime years could argue that by having to face with the second defender can be called as a 'partial double team', so as to who is the second defender they face and whether or not the mismatch becomes an even greater advantage or disadvantage, determined their scoring and assist capability.

He probably could have averaged 11 assists per game for a 45-50 win team who has the potential of a 60 win season.



also didn't feel like getting in depth about the Lebron/Wade/Bosh issue

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/ihxvFo.gif

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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/ibTPc2.gif

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[kshutts1]

Offensive Win shares is literally the calculation of those things.
Of what things? Points generated? Or the "assist opportunities"?

Because if it's points generated, then that just shows how flawed the stat is.

[3ball]

.
All Games of MJ vs. Michael Cooper, both 30+ MPG


.........................Date............MP....... ...FG%....REB....AST......PTS

Michael Jordan... 11/28/86... 45:00:00.......0.44.......10........3.........41
Michael Cooper.. 11/28/86... 32:00:00.......0.50........3.........4.........11

Michael Jordan... 12/20/88.. 39:00:00.......0.48........7.........8.........42
Michael Cooper.. 12/20/88.. 30:00:00.......0.50........4.........4..........9

Michael Jordan.... 3/21/89... 41:00:00.......0.35........8........16........21
Michael Cooper... 3/21/89... 31:00:00.......0.67........4.........8..........9

Michael Jordan... 12/19/89.. 44:00:00.......0.52........7.........5.........37
Michael Cooper.. 12/19/89... 33:00:00.......0.22........4.........3.........5


MJ's Averages: 35.1 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 45.2% FG

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=coopemi01


Footage of MJ vs. Cooper:

OFF-BALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297486&postcount=42)

ISOLATIONS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296029&postcount=30)



MJ's career averages vs. other DPOY wing defenders (source data is linked):

MJ vs. DPOY Sidney Moncrief (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01): 31.6 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404): 35.1 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Alvin Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01): 34.7 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Gary Payton (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01): 30.5 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01): 31.8 PPG
.

[3ball]

.
A few examples of MJ getting doubled


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/KEC6P-.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-08-2015/YLL71A.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/biPAFm.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/4OfuEY.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/ZGUxyC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-30-2015/fOCP0H.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/QmCJlv.gif

[GimmeThat]

grant hill, mj, kobe, lebron, and possibly tmac have the necessary ballhandling and passing ability to average 10+ assists for a season, but only if they played in a suitable offense that allowed ball-domination (not the triangle)..

They would also have to START at point guard for their teams and therefore didn't share ballhandling duties with say, Mo Williams or BJ Armstrong.

Otoh, Pippen doesn't have the ballhandling capability to do what these guys could do AND DID (i.e. Lebron's 12 game stretch of 30/7/11... see MJ's 24 game stretch of 30/9/11 and 1991 Finals of 33/7/11).


so grant hill, mj, kobe, lebron and possibly Tmac can do it.

but Scottie Pippen doesn't have the ballhandling capability to maybe average 11-13/7/11 for a full season