Rate this peak

[Marchesk]

26.1/9.9/2.6 on 60.4 FG%, 83.6 FT% with 2.2 blocks in 37.3 minutes

[Akrazotile]

Better than Kobes

[Young X]

McHale

[Marchesk]

Also much better post moves than Lebron.

[Marchesk]

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/UltimateFF/Animated-Basketball/Players/Kevin%20McHale/1wi4t_zpsdbf61530.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/Kevin%20McHale/f946026b.gif

How many steps would Lebron have taken on that 2nd gif?

[Akrazotile]

How many steps would Lebron have taken on that 2nd gif?


Enough to win four mvps and donate millions to charity probably.

[Gileraracer]

Probably 5 but the refs would ignore it anyway.

[Smoke117]

Frankenstein. It's fantastic but he probably really wasn't getting doubled all that much because of the Celtics overall talent. I mean...they did have a Larry Bird...a top 5 player all time...who was pretty much in his absolute prime at this point.

[ArbitraryWater]

Enough to win four mvps and donate millions to charity probably.

:roll:

[GimmeThat]

depends on how easy it is to value a different position having a rebounding edge over other on average.

[swagga]

26.1/9.9/2.6 on 60.4 FG%, 83.6 FT% with 2.2 blocks in 37.3 minutes

better than wilt in the finals, that's for sure. Probably won more rings too.

[Fallen Angel]

26.1/9.9/2.6 on 60.4 FG%, 83.6 FT% with 2.2 blocks in 37.3 minutes
How many wins did this lead to?

[SyRyanYang]

Mchale >>>>> Wilt

[Marchesk]

How many wins did this lead to?

86/87 Celtics: 59 wins

Bird had 15.2 win shares
Mchale had 14.8

[ZMonkey11]

Frankenstein. It's fantastic but he probably really wasn't getting doubled all that much because of the Celtics overall talent. I mean...they did have a Larry Bird...a top 5 player all time...who was pretty much in his absolute prime at this point.

Teams continually don't double LeBron. That doesn't take away from his greatness.

Dominance is dominance. Best way to prove dominance? Dominate. McHale dominated.

[bizil]

The thing about McHale is he got those numbers splitting the pie with Bird and Parish up front. Barkley and Malone were getting 28-30 points and 12 rebounds a game at their peak. Peak McHale was EASILY capable of getting those same numbers. But McHale was ALSO a great defender as well. So at his peak, u could make the argument that Mchale is a top 5 PF of all time.

In the two way sense, only Duncan and KG were better among PF's peak wise. And of course Anthony Davis will be added to that list over time. McHale was a better defender than great scoring PF's like Barkley, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petit, Webber, Chambers, etc.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Definitely one of the greatest peaks for a PF ever, borderline top5... Didn't last long though, as McHale got injured in the Playoffs that same year, never being the same again, consistently.
And he only really came into his own by 1985, then moving to starter, peaking for the 1986-87 regular-season and never at that level afterwards.



The thing about McHale is he got those numbers splitting the pie with Bird and Parish up front. Barkley and Malone were getting 28-30 points and 12 rebounds a game at their peak. Peak McHale was EASILY capable of getting those same numbers. But McHale was ALSO a great defender as well. So at his peak, u could make the argument that Mchale is a top 5 PF of all time.

In the two way sense, only Duncan and KG were better among PF's peak wise. And of course Anthony Davis will be added to that list over time. McHale was a better defender than great scoring PF's like Barkley, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petit, Webber, Chambers, etc.

Let's not compare McHale to such PF's as Barkley or Malone, saying that he could put up the same numbers, or even have that same type of impact...

-1st of all, Barkley and Malone are two of the greatest passing PF's in history... To sum it up, that really opened up the game for them and so on.
Kevin had some passing skills but not at their level and even had to be "influenced" for it, plus he turned too much into a blackhole, overdoing it plenty.
McHale has more TO's than assists for his career, for instance.

-Kevin also needed space to operate, and he was never the focal-point of a team's offense as those other two were, he never was what you'd call a #1 option.
Peak McHale was doing his thing alongside prime Larry Bird who took the most defensive attention with him everywhere on the floor, who was far from a selfish player, who was a very smart and terrifc passer mostly setting up Kevin at the right time, serving him many easy buckets...
(Post-injury) McHale went from averaging 22.6 PPG on 60.4% FG with 2.7 APG and 2.2 TO's in 1988 to 22.5 on 54.6% with 2.2 APG and 2.5 TO's in 1989... Bird, at the end of his prime, was playing in 1988 but not in 1989; and they even had Reggie Lewis as Larry's replacement.

-McHale was also not the rebounder that Chuck or even Karl were; he was tall, very long and mobile with some rebounding fundamentals but not enough for as high as 11 RPG as you put it, not even as the best rebounder on a team.
Kevin was far from being very physical, as well.

-Malone and Barkley were not as SKILLED as McHale in the post but they also killed it from there AND were killers on the fastbreak which Kevin wasn't, scored plenty off of pick-n-rolls which Kevin wasn't doing much... Plus, McHale could shoot but couldn't create off the dribble as Chuck, not even hit faceup jumpers at Malone's rate.

-Chuck and Karl also had that alpha-dog mentality and such that Kevin just didn't possess. And Malone with a tremendous work ethic, as well. They were also better overall athletes.

...

And McHale was a great overall defensive player yea, but not in the defensive anchor bigmen sense in the same way of KG or Timmy, he never had that type of defensive impact or even that close, easy to tell.

He was definitely a better defensive player than Barkley but against Malone (at their best there) it's pretty debatable.

McHale's certainly not a better defender than Hayes though, peak vs peak... Elvin's most likely the best choice for DPOY in 1975 if the award was already given out, you can check all types of stats and read some articles... Dude didn't even make all-defensive 1st because he was vastly "hated on" outside of Washington (you could say he was the one responsible for that though).
Kevin's defensive impact can't really hang with Haye's.

[KnittingRyu]

McHale was awesome.

[bizil]

Definitely one of the greatest peaks for a PF ever, borderline top5... Didn't last long though, as McHale got injured in the Playoffs that same year, never being the same again, consistently.
And he only really came into his own by 1985, then moving to starter, peaking for the 1986-87 regular-season and never at that level afterwards.




Let's not compare McHale to such PF's as Barkley or Malone, saying that he could put up the same numbers, or even have that same type of impact...

-1st of all, Barkley and Malone are two of the greatest passing PF's in history... To sum it up, that really opened up the game for them and so on.
Kevin had some passing skills but not at their level and even had to be "influenced" for it, plus he turned too much into a blackhole, overdoing it plenty.
McHale has more TO's than assists for his career, for instance.

-Kevin also needed space to operate, and he was never the focal-point of a team's offense as those other two were, he never was what you'd call a #1 option.
Peak McHale was doing his thing alongside prime Larry Bird who took the most defensive attention with him everywhere on the floor, who was far from a selfish player, who was a very smart and terrifc passer mostly setting up Kevin at the right time, serving him many easy buckets...
(Post-injury) McHale went from averaging 22.6 PPG on 60.4% FG with 2.7 APG and 2.2 TO's in 1988 to 22.5 on 54.6% with 2.2 APG and 2.5 TO's in 1989... Bird, at the end of his prime, was playing in 1988 but not in 1989; and they even had Reggie Lewis as Larry's replacement.

-McHale was also not the rebounder that Chuck or even Karl were; he was tall, very long and mobile with some rebounding fundamentals but not enough for as high as 11 RPG as you put it, not even as the best rebounder on a team.
Kevin was far from being very physical, as well.

-Malone and Barkley were not as SKILLED as McHale in the post but they also killed it from there AND were killers on the fastbreak which Kevin wasn't, scored plenty off of pick-n-rolls which Kevin wasn't doing much... Plus, McHale could shoot but couldn't create off the dribble as Chuck, not even hit faceup jumpers at Malone's rate.

-Chuck and Karl also had that alpha-dog mentality and such that Kevin just didn't possess. And Malone with a tremendous work ethic, as well. They were also better overall athletes.

...

And McHale was a great overall defensive player yea, but not in the defensive anchor bigmen sense in the same way of KG or Timmy, he never had that type of defensive impact or even that close, easy to tell.

He was definitely a better defensive player than Barkley but against Malone (at their best there) it's pretty debatable.

McHale's certainly not a better defender than Hayes though, peak vs peak... Elvin's most likely the best choice for DPOY in 1975 if the award was already given out, you can check all types of stats and read some articles... Dude didn't even make all-defensive 1st because he was vastly "hated on" outside of Washington (you could say he was the one responsible for that though).
Kevin's defensive impact can't really hang with Haye's.


I NEVER said McHale was as good as Barkley or Malone. But HE FOR DAMN SURE could have averaged 28 points and 12 rebounds a game as the MAIN MAN on a top tier team. He was giving up boards to Bird and the Chief. Both of those guys were double digit rebounders.

Malone was capable of averaging OVER 30 points a night. Barkley was capable of averging damn near 15 rebounds a game. I NEVER SAID MCHALE could put up those kind of numbers. But 28 points and 12 boards in a season AS HIS MAX POTENTIAL was very attainable.

McHale's field goal percentage was EPIC and at the time was the best low post PF ever. He averaged 26 points in a season. Getting ONE MORE FIELD GOAL to average 28 points isn't a stretch at all. Once again, I'm talking about if the team or system DICTATED Mchale having to get those numbers to win. Defensively, I NEVER SAID he was as good as Duncan and KG.

In terms of defense, McHale was a more VERSATILE defender than Elvin Hayes. And was just as good of an interior defender. I realize how good Hayes was in the two way sense. If anything, u could AT LEAST argue that McHale was better than Hayes on defense.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I NEVER said McHale was as good as Barkley or Malone. But HE FOR DAMN SURE could have averaged 28 points and 12 rebounds a game as the MAIN MAN on a top tier team. He was giving up boards to Bird and the Chief. Both of those guys were double digit rebounders.

Malone was capable of averaging OVER 30 points a night. Barkley was capable of averging damn near 15 rebounds a game. I NEVER SAID MCHALE could put up those kind of numbers. But 28 points and 12 boards in a season AS HIS MAX POTENTIAL was very attainable.

McHale's field goal percentage was EPIC and at the time was the best low post PF ever. He averaged 26 points in a season. Getting ONE MORE FIELD GOAL to average 28 points isn't a stretch at all. Once again, I'm talking about if the team or system DICTATED Mchale having to get those numbers to win. Defensively, I NEVER SAID he was as good as Duncan and KG.

In terms of defense, McHale was a more VERSATILE defender than Elvin Hayes. And was just as good of an interior defender. I realize how good Hayes was in the two way sense. If anything, u could AT LEAST argue that McHale was better than Hayes on defense.


12 rebounds is clearly too much of a stretch, McHale wasn't that "type" of rebounder... 11 RPG would've been most likely his MAX, that's if he even came close that mark.
He also wasn't quite on the same level as Parish or Bird in terms of rebounding.

At his best he could most likely score 28 PPG yea, but as the clear-cut #1 option and a team's focal-point on offense (with different/worse teammates even), he wouldn't have been close to the same type of FG% he had in his prime with the Celtics, and he would turn the ball over like a mf'er, dude already has more TO's than assists as it is...
Like I've said, Malone and Barkley had the passing game to "help" them in different ways on the court, while also being more versatile with their scoring, better rebounders and also better athletes.

I know that McHale played with Bird and so on, but along with never having scored 28 PPG for a season, he also NEVER (correct me if I'm mistaken here) scored 28+ PPG in a best out of 7games Playoffs series.

I don't think you can even argue for Kevin being better than Hayes on defense, considering defensive peak.
Like I've said, Elvin has a DPOY worthy season while McHale - despite having some great defensive seasons - has not...
McHale was not that type of defensive-anchor bigmen, unlike Hayes... Elvin was more impactful towards his team's defense, making him more valuable there.
Big E led the league in DWS for 3 years, he was 3x times top3 in DRtg (once 1st), he anchored some of the league's best defenses during his day, his 1975 Bullets posted one of the best DRtg's of ALL-TIME, you can also find some articles about his defense, watch some of his footage... I would definitely take him over McHale on defense. And again, the only reason he didn't make all-defensive 1st is because he was hated on like a mf'er.

[bizil]

12 rebounds is clearly too much of a stretch, McHale wasn't that "type" of rebounder... 11 RPG would've been most likely his MAX, that's if he even came close that mark.
He also wasn't quite on the same level as Parish or Bird in terms of rebounding.

At his best he could most likely score 28 PPG yea, but as the clear-cut #1 option and a team's focal-point on offense (with different/worse teammates even), he wouldn't have been close to the same type of FG% he had in his prime with the Celtics, and he would turn the ball over like a mf'er, dude already has more TO's than assists as it is...
Like I've said, Malone and Barkley had the passing game to "help" them in different ways on the court, while also being more versatile with their scoring, better rebounders and also better athletes.

I know that McHale played with Bird and so on, but along with never having scored 28 PPG for a season, he also NEVER (correct me if I'm mistaken here) scored 28+ PPG in a best out of 7games Playoffs series.

I don't think you can even argue for Kevin being better than Hayes on defense, considering defensive peak.
Like I've said, Elvin has a DPOY worthy season while McHale - despite having some great defensive seasons - has not...
McHale was not that type of defensive-anchor bigmen, unlike Hayes... Elvin was more impactful towards his team's defense, making him more valuable there.
Big E led the league in DWS for 3 years, he was 3x times top3 in DRtg (once 1st), he anchored some of the league's best defenses during his day, his 1975 Bullets posted one of the best DRtg's of ALL-TIME, you can also find some articles about his defense, watch some of his footage... I would definitely take him over McHale on defense. And again, the only reason he didn't make all-defensive 1st is because he was hated on like a mf'er.


If McHale shoots 55% from the field and 84% from the line, I say he could be the alpha dog on a top team. That combo of great low post scoring AND free throw shooting was huge for Kevin. Would he be the alpha dog that Malone or Barkley was? NO!! But I never said he was on that level either.

Just like James Harden stepped up when he had to be THE GUY, I think McHale's game would do something similar to that. Did Harden become as good as peak Kobe or peak Wade? NO! But he showed he was a top 10 player in the world. And that he was an alpha dog level player. THAT'S ALL I'M saying about McHale.

The main reason why I said McHale had a case over Hayes on defense is the fact that McHale guarded SF's often. From what I know, Hayes wasn't defending Dr. J, Hondo, Rick Barry, etc. And along with that, McHale was a great interior defending PF. If we are looking at accolades, McHale doesn't take a backseat to many PF's in the two way sense. Was Hayes better than McHale defensively? U could argue it. But McHale was flat out a GREAT DEFENDER!

[jlip]

McHale was the Celtics' leading scorer in the '85 and '86 Finals.

[SHAQisGOAT]

If McHale shoots 55% from the field and 84% from the line, I say he could be the alpha dog on a top team. That combo of great low post scoring AND free throw shooting was huge for Kevin. Would he be the alpha dog that Malone or Barkley was? NO!! But I never said he was on that level either.

Just like James Harden stepped up when he had to be THE GUY, I think McHale's game would do something similar to that. Did Harden become as good as peak Kobe or peak Wade? NO! But he showed he was a top 10 player in the world. And that he was an alpha dog level player. THAT'S ALL I'M saying about McHale.

The main reason why I said McHale had a case over Hayes on defense is the fact that McHale guarded SF's often. From what I know, Hayes wasn't defending Dr. J, Hondo, Rick Barry, etc. And along with that, McHale was a great interior defending PF. If we are looking at accolades, McHale doesn't take a backseat to many PF's in the two way sense. Was Hayes better than McHale defensively? U could argue it. But McHale was flat out a GREAT DEFENDER!

Never said he couldn't but he wouldn't have had numbers as good as Barkley's or Malone's, and he wouldn't have had that same type of impact... Plus, McHale never had that alpha-dog mentality or even work-ethic.

Kevin was at some point (in his peak) a borderline top5 player in the World, or at least very close to it... He didn't need to be the main-man on his own team to show that.

Never said he wasn't, McHale was definitely a great overall defender at his best.
And what you say there about guarding SF's is also definitely true... Kevin was more versatile, call it, he could guard many types of forwards (big or small) very well, even some centers.
With all of that said, Hayes was a more impactful defender than McHale, thus a better one also, because he contributed more to his team's defensive success while they certainly had terrific defensive success more than once. For example, McHale also easily guarded SF's better than someone like Duncan... Who would you rather have in terms of defensive play?




McHale was the Celtics' leading scorer in the '85 and '86 Finals.

True.

Bird was severely injured in 1985 though, and posted a triple-double in 1986 (with about 2 less PPG than Kevin).

[bizil]

Never said he couldn't but he wouldn't have had numbers as good as Barkley's or Malone's, and he wouldn't have had that same type of impact... Plus, McHale never had that alpha-dog mentality or even work-ethic.

Kevin was at some point (in his peak) a borderline top5 player in the World, or at least very close to it... He didn't need to be the main-man on his own team to show that.

Never said he wasn't, McHale was definitely a great overall defender at his best.
And what you say there about guarding SF's is also definitely true... Kevin was more versatile, call it, he could guard many types of forwards (big or small) very well, even some centers.
With all of that said, Hayes was a more impactful defender than McHale, thus a better one also, because he contributed more to his team's defensive success while they certainly had terrific defensive success more than once. For example, McHale also easily guarded SF's better than someone like Duncan... Who would you rather have in terms of defensive play?





True.

Bird was severely injured in 1985 though, and posted a triple-double in 1986 (with about 2 less PPG than Kevin).

I would rather have Duncan in terms of defensive ability. The reason why is because he's a 7 footer who controlled the paint like a dominant center on both ends. Hayes was a great defending PF who also played a ton of center. And u could FOR SURE argue Hayes over McHale defensively. I just prefer McHale defensively. I like his length and ability to guard SF's and PF's.

[Fire Colangelo]

The thing about McHale is he got those numbers splitting the pie with Bird and Parish up front. Barkley and Malone were getting 28-30 points and 12 rebounds a game at their peak. Peak McHale was EASILY capable of getting those same numbers. But McHale was ALSO a great defender as well. So at his peak, u could make the argument that Mchale is a top 5 PF of all time.

In the two way sense, only Duncan and KG were better among PF's peak wise. And of course Anthony Davis will be added to that list over time. McHale was a better defender than great scoring PF's like Barkley, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petit, Webber, Chambers, etc.

I usually agree with most of your posts, but not this one.

In terms of peak play, the likes of Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Hayes, etc were clearly better.

Then the likes of Webber, Kemp, Lucas, Pettit, who you have good arguments for over McHale during their respective primes.

Then you have the likes of Love, Amare, Bosh, Pau, etc who were probably a little below McHale, but you can make arguments for.

McHale had a great offensive post game, but every other aspect of his game are pretty mediocre. He's not a great rebounder although he'd probably average 10-11 given the actual opportunity ala Chris Bosh. He's a terrible terrible passer, and although he was good man to man defensively, he's not what you'd call a defensive anchor.

It's hard to say how well he would've done in a 1st option role in his peak. It's not hard to average good numbers, but he has to produce some wins. Otherwise he'd be no different than a Kevin Love or Chris Bosh who both averaged great numbers as the number 1 option. Even Jamison averaged 25/9 at one point....

[bizil]

I usually agree with most of your posts, but not this one.

In terms of peak play, the likes of Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Hayes, etc were clearly better.

Then the likes of Webber, Kemp, Lucas, Pettit, who you have good arguments for over McHale during their respective primes.

Then you have the likes of Love, Amare, Bosh, Pau, etc who were probably a little below McHale, but you can make arguments for.

McHale had a great offensive post game, but every other aspect of his game are pretty mediocre. He's not a great rebounder although he'd probably average 10-11 given the actual opportunity ala Chris Bosh. He's a terrible terrible passer, and although he was good man to man defensively, he's not what you'd call a defensive anchor.

It's hard to say how well he would've done in a 1st option role in his peak. It's not hard to average good numbers, but he has to produce some wins. Otherwise he'd be no different than a Kevin Love or Chris Bosh who both averaged great numbers as the number 1 option. Even Jamison averaged 25/9 at one point....

U made some good points. But I didn't say FOR SURE McHale was top five PF of all time peak wise. I said I could see somebody arguing it. I would take Barkley, Malone, KG, Hayes, and Duncan FOR SURE over McHale peak wise. But from there, I could see people choosing McHale over guys like Bob P, Dirk, Webber, Kemp, and Lucas.

And the RATIONALE would be McHale was on a great team where he DIDN'T have to be the guy. BUT his offensive skillset AND defensive ability as a package would trump guys like Webber, Kemp, Dirk, and Lucas. And he showed he could put up 26 points, 10 boards, and provide great defense at his peak. And in terms of low post ability and dominance, only Duncan is better.

[Rose'sACL]

Teams continually don't double LeBron. That doesn't take away from his greatness.

Dominance is dominance. Best way to prove dominance? Dominate. McHale dominated.
doubling in that era and today's era is different.
shadow doubling was not allowed in the 80s and the 90s.

[bobopenguin]

Enough to win four mvps and donate millions to charity probably.

thats 11 years of steps.
no wonder he sucks at dribble.

oh yeah, i am bran's biggest stan.